When to speak up... and how to not lose your "edge"

[Farrar]

Specific question...

 

When I was visiting family, I was at my cousin's house a good bit and saw her with her 3 yo a lot.  And...  Well, she's a loving mother and dotes on her little one and doesn't do anything at all even close to horrible...  BUT...  she also did not know how to control her kid at all, and I mean in unsafe situations like running in front of cars and balancing on things that were unsafe and at times when the 3 yo gleefully wanted to do some harm to others.  And I saw her making some enormous mistakes in how she dealt with these situations.  Basically, not stepping in and really putting a stop to this stuff and instead just powerlessly saying "no" without any consequences whatsoever while the behavior just kept going.  I don't see this ending well long term when the kid gets a little older, old enough to get into real trouble.

 

And I didn't really say anything.  I mean, not my kid.  I did hold her back from getting in front of a moving car, but otherwise, I didn't feel like I could interfere.  But now I'm wondering, good grief, maybe I should have said a little more.  My cousin is my age, it's her first (and only) kid.  She and I have a good relationship, were close as kids, though we're not now, in part because we're really different.  Unless I was just a shrill nasty person about it, I'm sure that anything I said wouldn't have hurt our relationship because that branch of my family is just not like that - they're all very kind and forgiving and accepting with family.  Part of what held me back was the not my kid element, but part of it was the cultural gap between us - she's much more conservative in her outlook on life than me and I'm sure that my liberal attachment parenting based gentle discipline thinking wouldn't have necessarily found much traction because it wouldn't have had much to hold on to in her framework of thinking and I thought, she needs someone with a different parenting paradigm to help her with this stuff.  But still...  just so sad to see her make these mistakes.

 

So should I have said a little more?

 

More general question...

 

When I was younger, I was kind of harsh about stuff like this.  Not parenting stuff because what did I know back then, but things where people were, in my view, making mistakes, or when I disagreed with them.  And I know I have a tendency to be a bit of a know it all.  So I have really toned down my attitude to a huge extent and have found that has helped me generally have better relationships, smoother sailing in groups, etc.  And so I'm not sorry I did that.  On the other hand, then sometimes something happens where I think, you know, I should have spoken up, and I realize that I think I've sort of lost my edge.  It's fine to stay out of peoples' way and to let things go and realize that you can't go around trying to change everyone.  But on the other hand, it's no good when you feel like you're not really holding to your own values to an extent that everything around you is just fine and you won't disagree with people.

 

So...  how do you be accommodating and kind and not be annoying yet also keep your edge and speak up when you should?

[Plink]

I'm in a similar frustrating situation. Hold your tongue friend. If she wants advice she will ask for it, but until then it is absolutely none of your business unless you truly believe that someone is in imminent danger.

 

((Hugs)) from one recovering know-it-all to another.

[JoJosMom]

I'm in a similar frustrating situation. Hold your tongue friend. If she wants advice she will ask for it, but until then it is absolutely none of your business unless you truly believe that someone is in imminent danger.

 

((Hugs)) from one recovering know-it-all to another.

 

:iagree: I highlighted "imminent." 

[Anne in CA]

Can you talk to someone who she might listen to? It sounds to me like she might not listen to you.

[elegantlion]

The only way I would instigate advice is if she responded well to a conversation starter. It would work better in person, something like, "gosh 3 is such a tiring age." and then watch her response. She might welcome an in to discuss discipline, she might not. I'd follow her cues. 

[Slache]

If it were me I'd want you to say something.

[sassenach]

I've got to say, the healthiest relationships I've seen are the ones where things like this can be said and received.  That's not where most of us live.  Most of us just bite our tongues.  But if find yourself in a moment where you can lovingly say something, I would do it.

 

 

[Farrar]

I sort of wish I was going to see her again sooner because I can't imagine calling her up and being like, "look, let me give you a little parenting advice" because that really would be rude, but I probably won't see them until we make it down there again and that's probably not for nearly a year.  We keep inviting her to come see us.  Maybe when her kid is a little older they'll come for the DC trip and we can host them.  I am always offering for family to try and make a cheap vacation even cheaper by coming to DC.

 

In retrospect, I'm kind of like, gee, I probably should have just spoken up.  She may not have listened to me and it may not have helped, but I know her and I know she wouldn't have held it against me or anything because she's a really forgiving, generous person and just wouldn't have.  I guess that's what I mean about losing my edge.  I've never been a people pleaser type, but I feel like I was trying to keep some peace that didn't even need to be kept or avoid some tension that wasn't worth avoiding.

[happypamama]

Could you email her and talk about how lovely it was to see her and how much you enjoyed her little girl and how adorable/fun/whatever she is, and maybe find a way to say something like, "I remember how busy and active my children were at that age and sometimes I just didn't know how we'd get through the day," and see if it leads in to her saying something like, "Yes, gosh, she's so active, and I really don't know what to do?"  If spanking was the main type of discipline for your cousin growing up, she may be struggling, because she may want to avoid spanking but not really know what to do instead.  Maybe just hearing someone else mention those years might be enough to get her to open up a bit.

 

But I'm with the other posters -- unless there is imminent danger to a person or someone else's personal property, I wouldn't probably say something.

[trinchick]

I think that you can't judge her general parenting based on what you observed at a family function. She may do really well at home but have been unwilling to make a scene or call attention to poor behavior in front of an audience. Every kid has good and bad days, as does every parent. Personally, I hate hate hate when I feel like people are observing how I manage my kids and I do a worse job as a result. The obvious exception was the car incident and I'm sure she's grateful that there was someone in the family who stepped in to help.

 

I have some know it all tendencies myself but I think you should let this one go and assume that what you observed is not necessarily the norm in their household.

[idnib]

.

[dzingirl]

You could be describing me and my son. I'm not a first-time mom, but my daughter was not like this. Part of my problem is that while I know he needs consequences, I am not sure what those consequences should be. At home, I will send him to his room for a time out. In public, it's very tricky. Leaving where we are when he's out of line generally would seriously complicate my life or unfairly punish my daughter too. I'm sort of at a loss with him. I kept hoping he'd grow out of this behavior, but he's about to turn four and it's not improving much.

 

So, pretend I'm your cousin and give me your advice. Anyone else who has advice feel free also. Sorry for the hijack.

[Anne]

The most useful thing that I have done is talked about *my* parenting journey - challenges I encountered and how I dealt with them.  Often the most useful stories are the stories about my failures...

 

Anne

[Catherine]

I do not have any advice, but I'd like to tell a story from my family that may assuage your worries about the daughter.

 

I don't want to identify anyone but I had a relative who parented in a similar way, but much worse...yelling, definitely rising to the level of verbal abuse, threats, but no actual enforcement. No physical abuse or even spanking. Divorce happened several years later, other parent has custody, and the kids appear to be OK. They are middle and older teens now. They are extremely kindhearted, responsible kids, OK students. So it's not a sure thing that a child raised this way, even for more than 10 years, will have an awful outcome.

[Catherine]

You could be describing me and my son. I'm not a first-time mom, but my daughter was not like this. Part of my problem is that while I know he needs consequences, I am not sure what those consequences should be. At home, I will send him to his room for a time out. In public, it's very tricky. Leaving where we are when he's out of line generally would seriously complicate my life or unfairly punish my daughter too. I'm sort of at a loss with him. I kept hoping he'd grow out of this behavior, but he's about to turn four and it's not improving much.

 

So, pretend I'm your cousin and give me your advice. Anyone else who has advice feel free also. Sorry for the hijack.

In a nutshell, keep him VERY close. Learn to anticipate the bad behavior and correct it very firmly before it happens. Be consistent. Anticipate, rather than punish. After a few weeks, if he is improving, allow a tiny bit more freedom. But keeping them very close and anticipating the behavior is key.

[kewb]

Unless your opinion is asked for keep it to yourself. No one likes to be told what they are doing wrong. You are also making sone serious assumptions based on 1 visit. My sister and I had a huge disagreement based on assumptions she made about my life when we only see each other once or twice a year and speak infrequently. It took awhile for that rift to heal.

[Farrar]

Well, to clarify, I was there for several days, hanging out in her house, kids playing in the yard, etc. (though we stayed with my grandmother).  It wasn't a family function, just us visiting.  We watched kiddo for her a couple of times while she ran errands.  Grandmother and cousin both said things to the effect that kiddo is like that all the time and they both were sort of throwing up their hands about it in frustration.  I appreciate that some people are really chafed by my assumptions.  I also worry that people will judge my parenting and have had negative experiences where they did.  And that's why I didn't say anything in the first place and am sort of questioning it.  I don't pretend to know everything and I do want to emphasize I don't think cousin is a bad mother.  I think she's trying really hard and loves her kid very much.  And that she was really supervising her dd pretty closely so even though there was the incident where kiddo was actively trying to run in front of a car, I don't think kiddo is in any danger or anything terrible like that.

[Rebel Yell]

(didn't read all previous replies)

 

Start with a conversation like Elegant Lion post #5 suggested.  If that goes well, mention how you had to physicaly restrain her from being hit by a car, and ask how your sister can prevent that if she is not right next to her child and "NO!" or "STOP!" doesn't work.

 

 

And my own personal opinion: I would much rather see a child running completely wild as the parent looked on or totally ignored (assuming no life-threatening danger, like drowning or moving vehicles- just general annoying-ness or little falls/scrapes) than hear a parent drone out a useless chorus of "no" Stop." get over here" and NEVER BACKING IT UP AND DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT. :banghead:

[catz]

I generally think unsolicited advice is a bad idea.  I had an active and intense 3 year old and I would not have taken kindly to people telling me how to deal with him without seeking out their opinion.  It's so easy as an outsider to judge.  You said in your last post you don't want your own parenting judged.  No one does. 

[Farrar]

You could be describing me and my son. I'm not a first-time mom, but my daughter was not like this. Part of my problem is that while I know he needs consequences, I am not sure what those consequences should be. At home, I will send him to his room for a time out. In public, it's very tricky. Leaving where we are when he's out of line generally would seriously complicate my life or unfairly punish my daughter too. I'm sort of at a loss with him. I kept hoping he'd grow out of this behavior, but he's about to turn four and it's not improving much.

 

So, pretend I'm your cousin and give me your advice. Anyone else who has advice feel free also. Sorry for the hijack.

 

Well, I'll give an example.  Kiddo was balanced in a sort of unsafe way on the porch glider thing where she was clearly at risk of falling.  Cousin, who was sitting right there almost within reach, said probably a dozen times, "No," and "That's not safe" and "Stop that right now or else."  But the whole time, she just sat there and kiddo continued to jump around and nearly fell at one point.  Finally, after a good five or ten minutes of this, cousin was fed up.  She gave kiddo a light spanking.  Kiddo cackled with laughter and told her mother no and then kept doing the behavior.  And then, when she was finally finished, she climbed down to go do something when she was ready.  Cousin seemed, well, basically just tired but powerless.

 

What I wanted to say, if I was being blunt, was, "Cousin, she doesn't understand.  You need to physically pick her up and put her down and repeat it clearly.  And then you need to not let her back up on there.  End of story."  And in general, because I saw this sort of thing play out over and over and over in various ways, I wanted to say, "Cousin, three year olds don't understand words, they only understand actions.  If you want her to stop, you must actually stop her.  Let her know that the word no means you're coming to stop her right away if she doesn't stop immediately.  Otherwise it's meaningless to her."  And I also wanted to say, "Be sure you're picking your battles well.  Is making her wear a different dress the same as stopping her from doing something unsafe or cruel?"

 

Of course, that's way too blunt.  I never would have said it that boldly.  And there were a million other things that would have driven me completely batty for my own kids that I definitely would never say in a million years, like, "Can everyone stop praising how dang cute she is and notice that she's really clever?"  I like the people who suggested starting with things like, "Gosh, they're so hard at this age, aren't they?" and seeing if there's an in.  I just...  didn't.

 

And, FTR, you sound like you're struggling with the toddler and preschool conundrum that many of us did.  It's so hard to dole out consequences in public or when there's other obligations, especially at this age when they have to be immediate or they're worthless.  I agree with what Caroline said about about just being glued to him and stopping the behaviors right away and anticipating them whenever you can.  I wouldn't worry so much about the consequences quite yet unless they're obvious and immediate.  I tend to think that anyone who is being thoughtful about discipline is going to work it out in the end and that most kid will grow out of it.

[ErinE]

I wouldn't say anything unless I'm in the situation. I've talked to kids in danger while the parents stood by and said nothing, but I would never give advice to a parent unless asked. I think the opportunity to say something to the child and model behavior for your cousin has passed.

 

Next year may be better. Your cousin may have observed your parenting skills and taken them to heart next time you see her.

[Cosmos]

Well, I'm pretty bad at this stuff :) so grain of salt and all that...

 

I tend to speak out in the moment but in a 'Oh, this is bringing back all the crazy things my kids did, I absolutely had no idea how to handle it, thank goodness my mum/preschool teacher/friend stepped in and told me to do XYZ and finally I got it. Not that you need to know but it just reminded me."

 

Of course, most of it is a lie. I usually did know how to do X Y Z. But I don't see how you can correct another parent out and out without being rude, and I don't know how you can let ppl do stupid things without at least trying to give some info so that's what I do.

 

Whether or not it's effective I have no idea.

 

I think this is the best approach. Nobody will hear you if you go in from a point of superiority saying, "Here's what you need to do." You need to be a peer saying, "Here's what I did." Most of us are too pig-headed to listen to the first way.

 

I don't think it's about losing your edge. I think it's about gaining tact.

 

ETA: Oh, lordy. I just noticed that in my suggestion not to tell people, "Here's what you need to do," I told farrar what she needs to do. :lol:

[fairfarmhand]

I predict in a year or two, she will step it up.

 

Toddlers are so hard because many people don't understand what is age appropriate and many are not 100% certain about how much the child comprehends or remembers from one moment to the next. Once the kid gets to where he can articulate a bit better and show more understanding of rules, many people find it easier to discipline.

 

That's my experience anyway.

 

 

[kewb]

When my sister and I see each other it is for a few days at a time. Our parenting is night and day. Just like we were growing up. We are opposite extremes.

 

Unless asked I don't see any way for that conversation with your cousin to end well. She may forgive you on the surface but that wound will leave a scar. What you can do is model your style if parenting and offer annecdotes of your own parenting adventures. Accept that your cousin may not be receptive.

 

One of my husband's cousins always praised my kids and we always talked about how I parented. Now that she has one of her own she parents nothing like me. I think it is because the family that she lives near does things differently than I do. It is difficult to against your family and the cultural norm of where you live.

 

 

If it were me, look for opportunities to offer stories of your own journey when you are together. Until then put it out of your mind.

[Reefgazer]

I likely would not have spoken up either, but if by some chance I had, I might have started with "You know, I had that problem with little Joey when he was that age, and what really worked for me was....".  If she didn't take that as a conversation opener, I would probably back off, though.

Specific question...

 

When I was visiting family, I was at my cousin's house a good bit and saw her with her 3 yo a lot.  And...  Well, she's a loving mother and dotes on her little one and doesn't do anything at all even close to horrible...  BUT...  she also did not know how to control her kid at all, and I mean in unsafe situations like running in front of cars and balancing on things that were unsafe and at times when the 3 yo gleefully wanted to do some harm to others.  And I saw her making some enormous mistakes in how she dealt with these situations.  Basically, not stepping in and really putting a stop to this stuff and instead just powerlessly saying "no" without any consequences whatsoever while the behavior just kept going.  I don't see this ending well long term when the kid gets a little older, old enough to get into real trouble.

 

And I didn't really say anything.  I mean, not my kid.  I did hold her back from getting in front of a moving car, but otherwise, I didn't feel like I could interfere.  But now I'm wondering, good grief, maybe I should have said a little more.  My cousin is my age, it's her first (and only) kid.  She and I have a good relationship, were close as kids, though we're not now, in part because we're really different.  Unless I was just a shrill nasty person about it, I'm sure that anything I said wouldn't have hurt our relationship because that branch of my family is just not like that - they're all very kind and forgiving and accepting with family.  Part of what held me back was the not my kid element, but part of it was the cultural gap between us - she's much more conservative in her outlook on life than me and I'm sure that my liberal attachment parenting based gentle discipline thinking wouldn't have necessarily found much traction because it wouldn't have had much to hold on to in her framework of thinking and I thought, she needs someone with a different parenting paradigm to help her with this stuff.  But still...  just so sad to see her make these mistakes.

 

So should I have said a little more?

 

More general question...

 

When I was younger, I was kind of harsh about stuff like this.  Not parenting stuff because what did I know back then, but things where people were, in my view, making mistakes, or when I disagreed with them.  And I know I have a tendency to be a bit of a know it all.  So I have really toned down my attitude to a huge extent and have found that has helped me generally have better relationships, smoother sailing in groups, etc.  And so I'm not sorry I did that.  On the other hand, then sometimes something happens where I think, you know, I should have spoken up, and I realize that I think I've sort of lost my edge.  It's fine to stay out of peoples' way and to let things go and realize that you can't go around trying to change everyone.  But on the other hand, it's no good when you feel like you're not really holding to your own values to an extent that everything around you is just fine and you won't disagree with people.

 

So...  how do you be accommodating and kind and not be annoying yet also keep your edge and speak up when you should?

 

[VeteranMom]

My sister has 2 boys who were similar to your cousin's child at that age.  They'd run off from her.  They'd misbehave.  At the kitchen table, they'd swing at their water cups to have them fly across the room and make a mess.  My sister would just clean up the mess.  At my niece's wedding, both made a run for the cupcake table and grabbed cupcakes before the bride and groom had even cut the cake.  They were allowed to keep the cupcakes and finish them.  Both played in the punch fountain during the reception.  My sister seemed unable to tell her kids anything and have them listen to her.  It was uncomfortable for everyone around them.  I can understand you wanting to help your cousin out, but when people are in that situation it's usually one that they made for themselves.  Obvioulsy, your cousin is not yet uncomfortable enough to have sought out resources that would help her change her situation (books, asked for advice, etc).  Any unsolicited advice you would give would only be seen as criticism of her kids and of her parenting "style".  I understand the tendency to want to help her improve things, but she might not see a problem with it and even if she does see a problem the whole thing will likely blow up in your face.            

[maize]

I have passed on parenting books and book suggestions, that is as far as I am willing to go in offering unsolicited advice. I have always done it in the context of "I've been reading this book and it has given me some great ideas/insights for working with my kids. I thought you might like it too."

[Lisa R.]

  On the other hand, then sometimes something happens where I think, you know, I should have spoken up, and I realize that I think I've sort of lost my edge.  

OP, you haven't lost your edge.  Your instincts are now telling you to stay silent. You've matured and gained tact and discretion. 

 

If this person really admired your parenting style *and* felt that they needed help, they would've asked for advice. Both of these factors need to be in place, I think, before most people will ask for help. Either she doesn't agree with your parenting or doesn't feel that she needs your help. Maybe both. Either way, it's her call to seek help. 

 

I'm a big believer in not giving unsolicited advice or anything. I think this goes double for parenting. I believe it is people's most sensitive area--the area in which they are most likely to be defensive. 

 

You did a good job by staying quiet. I'm not saying it was easy, but it was right. 

 

To encourage you, sometimes these really active kids settle down after a couple of years. You may have seen this little girl at her peak. Hard to say. :)

[1GirlTwinBoys]

No, I don't think you should have said anything.  Her child is 3 years old and she has managed fine this far without your input.  Honestly, people don't take kindly to free parenting advice. 

[Farrar]

But what is an edge if not at least sometimes speaking up?

 

Is maturity only keeping your mouth shut and putting up with anything if it doesn't directly impact you?  I guess I hope that's not true.  The people I admire most speak up.

[kewb]

The wise edge knows when to cut.  

Your cousin was not signing the 3 year old up for Hitler Youth but utilizing in your opinion, a lack of parenting.  

If this is a hill you want to die on, go for it.  Offer all the unsolicited advice you care to.  Be prepared for the consequences. 

[catz]

But what is an edge if not at least sometimes speaking up?

 

Is maturity only keeping your mouth shut and putting up with anything if it doesn't directly impact you?  I guess I hope that's not true.  The people I admire most speak up.

 

Maturity is knowing when to speak up and when it's none of your business.  You saw a relatively new mother struggling with a preschooler.  Age 3 was absolutely the hardest age for my own son.  I had preschool teachers judging me non-stop.  This kid then hit the ceiling of an IQ test in kindergarten and settled into his own body over a number of years.  Now every one who has this kid in a class or activity tells me what a delight he is at age 13.  What you saw is a snapshot of a couple days.

 

Some kids push buttons when other people are around.  Some parents struggle to parent with an audience present.  As a short term visitor, I just don't think it's your place.  I think relaying maybe relevant info that helped you as a parent gently is ok "Bobby was so tough at this age too.  I found this book helpful!" in the moment and then dropping it entirely.  Unsolicited advice is so rarely taken well and utilized, even if it is good.  It takes many parents years to settle into being comfortable with parenting. 

 

If you would have seen reportable behavoir of neglect or abuse, then of course, speaking up is the right thing to do.  A parenting style you are not comfortable with is not grounds to give unsolicited advice.