Why is the Duchess of Cambridge still referred to as Kate Middleton yet no ones says "William Mountbatten-Windsor"? Doesn't seem right.

[FaithManor]

I can't quite figure it out. In Denmark, Prince Frederick's wife of non-royal blood is referred to as Princess Mary. The Copenhagen Post does not refer to her without her proper title, and I can't find a news agency in Europe or America that ever has referred to her as Mary Donaldson since her marriage.

 

I guess it seems like it's kind of disrespectful for the media to continue this when she has a proper title and normally it's good form to use the title. Nobody calls Queen Elizabeth - Beth Windsor which would be the equivalent, nor for that matter, Charlie Mountbatten Windsor and even though they use the nickname Harry for Prince William's younger brother, they still tack on the prince part. I mean even Beatrice and Eugenie who have no hope of getting anywhere near the throne due to be so far down the line of succession are still referred to as Princesses. I realize they are princesses by birth but even those titles had not been conferred on them, they would have had some other title and it seems likely that the media would use them.

 

Is this a slight to her from both the UK and US media outlets due to her lack of royal blood? If so, why do they single out Princess Mary of Denmark for preferential treatment. The Duchess of Cambridge is at least a citizen of the UK. Princess Mary was an Australian citizen so even more removed from the traditional marital pool.

 

I'm just wondering. Maybe Laura Corin can shed some light on my ignorance of why this is acceptable protocol.

[poppy]

I think it is affectionate.

[amyco]

I'm just plain confused why they don't call her Princess like they called Diana Spencer, Princess Diana after marrying Prince Charles.  Is Kate a princess or not?  Doesn't marrying a prince make you a princess?  Or is she "just" a Duchess because that was the title the queen gave her?

[Belacqua]

I agree that it seems affectionate. Kate has been embraced from the beginning as "one of us." 

[vonfirmath]

I'm just plain confused why they don't call her Princess like they called Diana Spencer, Princess Diana after marrying Prince Charles.  Is Kate a princess or not?  Doesn't marrying a prince make you a princess?  Or is she "just" a Duchess because that was the title the queen gave her?

 

Here's the Wikipedia article on what makes a lady a princess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_princess#Princess_by_marriage

 

It appears, though, that Diana because known more familiarly as Diana, Princess of wales, after the Divorce. Before which she was known as Her Royal Highness.

 

Note that Camilla is also not referred to as Princess but, rather, Duchess  Even though officially she is a Princess.

[Laura Corin]

I can't quite figure it out. In Denmark, Prince Frederick's wife of non-royal blood is referred to as Princess Mary. The Copenhagen Post does not refer to her without her proper title, and I can't find a news agency in Europe or America that ever has referred to her as Mary Donaldson since her marriage.

 

I guess it seems like it's kind of disrespectful for the media to continue this when she has a proper title and normally it's good form to use the title. Nobody calls Queen Elizabeth - Beth Windsor which would be the equivalent, nor for that matter, Charlie Mountbatten Windsor and even though they use the nickname Harry for Prince William's younger brother, they still tack on the prince part. I mean even Beatrice and Eugenie who have no hope of getting anywhere near the throne due to be so far down the line of succession are still referred to as Princesses. I realize they are princesses by birth but even those titles had not been conferred on them, they would have had some other title and it seems likely that the media would use them.

 

Is this a slight to her from both the UK and US media outlets due to her lack of royal blood? If so, why do they single out Princess Mary of Denmark for preferential treatment. The Duchess of Cambridge is at least a citizen of the UK. Princess Mary was an Australian citizen so even more removed from the traditional marital pool.

 

I'm just wondering. Maybe Laura Corin can shed some light on my ignorance of why this is acceptable protocol.

 

I think it started with Diana, Princess of Wales.  She was seen as different, more relaxed, and the Princess Di nickname was created.  As far as I remember, The Duchess of Cambridge doesn't even use the name 'Kate' -but I might be wrong about that.  I'm not a big royal watcher.  I do think that in both cases the media treats them differently to the born royals: not so much a slight as a feeling that they are 'one of us'.

 

L

[MrsMommy]

She should be called the Duchess of Cambridge, and it really annoys me when she isn't.

 

I'm going to guess that it stems from the fact that she and Prince William dated for so long before their marriage. The press got used to calling her Kate Middleton (or even worse, "Waitie Katie"), and they refuse to give it up now. But I think it's very disrespectful. She has a title, and they should use it.

[cathmom]

I think that in part it stems from the fact that if you say Duchess of Cambridge, readers may not know who you mean because her first name is not in the title.

 

My sister's theory about the waiting is that they waited to get married until they were ready to have children so there wouldn't be all the pressure of procreation.

[Crimson Wife]

Diana was married to the Prince of Wales, while Kate is not. When Charles becomes king, only then William will become Prince of Wales.

 

When people refer to Kate by the Duchess title, it always takes me a minute to realize that's who they mean. I think that even if she had been an aristocrat, the tabloids would still call her by her first name.

[Belacqua]

Diana was married to the Prince of Wales, while Kate is not. When Charles becomes king, only then William will become Prince of Wales.

 

When people refer to Kate by the Duchess title, it always takes me a minute to realize that's who they mean. I think that even if she had been an aristocrat, the tabloids would still call her by her first name.

 

Well, that hardly seems fair. If I marry a prince, I get to be a princess, dang it! 

 

Of course, I married a sportswriter, not a prince, so I guess it's a moot point.

[Ellie]

Well, that hardly seems fair. If I marry a prince, I get to be a princess, dang it! 

 

Of course, I married a sportswriter, not a prince, so I guess it's a moot point.

 

According to Wikipedia, "Catherine's full title and style is Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn and Lady Carrickfergus."

 

Being a Duchess is nothing to sneeze at, especially when you're a Royal Highness the Duchess of.... :-)

[umsami]

Well, that hardly seems fair. If I marry a prince, I get to be a princess, dang it! 

 

Of course, I married a sportswriter, not a prince, so I guess it's a moot point.

 

I really needed to marry a Count so I could be a Countess.  I wonder if I could convince people that DH was some Prince of Egypt (please don't sue me Spielberg) and then be Princess Umsami.  Hmmm…. :)  

 

According to Wikipedia, "Catherine's full title and style is Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn and Lady Carrickfergus."

 

Being a Duchess is nothing to sneeze at, especially when you're a Royal Highness the Duchess of.... :-)

 

Lady Carrickfergus is a fabulous title….so very weird sounding.  For me, the Duchess of Cambridge makes me think that Harry's wife should be the Duchess of Oxford.  I know that's wrong…but…I can't help it.

[LucyStoner]

I've never really understand Americans caring about the titles of the British royal family.

[Ellie]

I've never really understand Americans caring about the titles of the British royal family.

 

It isn't that we *care.* It is only that it is interesting to us because we have nothing like it. :-)

[edelweiss]

I really needed to marry a Count so I could be a Countess.  I wonder if I could convince people that DH was some Prince of Egypt (please don't sue me Spielberg) and then be Princess Umsami.  Hmmm…. :)

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, you would have to marry an Earl to be called a Countess.  I know... confusing, right?

[Belacqua]

Actually, you would have to marry an Earl to be called a Countess.  I know... confusing, right?

 

Then what do we call Mrs. Count?

[gardenmom5]

imo:  the number of syllables, and making sure people know *exactly* to whom they are referring.

[gardenmom5]

Diana was married to the Prince of Wales, while Kate is not. When Charles becomes king, only then William will become Prince of Wales.

 

When people refer to Kate by the Duchess title, it always takes me a minute to realize that's who they mean. I think that even if she had been an aristocrat, the tabloids would still call her by her first name.

 

Diana was the daughter of an Earl.  iow: an aristocrat - and was properly titled "lady Diana spencer" prior to her marriage.

the paparazzi still referred to Diana as "lady di" (short) until she married Charles, received a new title and officially became her royal highness, Diana, Princess of wales.  then, she became princess di (because paparazzi like short names.)

 

Kate was the daughter of a commoner - with no title.  because it is her fil who is the immediate heir to the throne, she wasn't given a "princess" title, but probably will when William becomes the immediate heir to the throne.

[FaithManor]

Actually, I'm kind of old fashioned about things like this and that includes in America too. So, I don't like it when President Obama or President Bush or President Clinton are referred to by their last names only. I still think it's appropriate to refer to a judge as "Your Honor or Judge X" and not as Mr., Mrs. Ms. and we do hear that in this area sometimes. I actually heard a teacher who teaches American Government and AP US History referred to Judge Gillespie as Mr. Gillespie and in front of students too!

 

If I get my PH.D, expect that those who are not on a first name basis with me to refer to me as Dr. H, and not Mrs. H. I don't like it when people ask me when I'm teaching children's classes at church if the kids can call me by my family nickname.

 

I realize this is just my perception, it seemed like the media tended to be rather disrespectful on this matter.

 

As an American, I also think it's good for me to use the proper titles for foreign dignitaries. I have kids who may someday live aboard, and since I'm trying to teach them to think in a more globally minded way I think about goofy things like this! :) I agree, I'm not normal. :D

 

I guess maybe the American equivalent would be if Michelle Obama were not referred to as the First Lady because of something in her pedigree that made the media discriminate against her or not want to confer the title upon her. But, Laura Corin's explanation makes sense since I can see how after a long tradition of "pedigree" guiding marital choices within the royal family, the citizens of the UK associate uniquely with the Duchess as "one of us" and so it's familial in a positive way, not negative.

 

Thanks for the discussion.

[Laura Corin]

As an American, I also think it's good for me to use the proper titles for foreign dignitaries. I have kids who may someday live aboard, and since I'm trying to teach them to think in a more globally minded way I think about goofy things like this! :) I agree, I'm not normal. :D

 

Americans tend to come across as sweetly over-formal when visiting the UK.  The normal form here is to refer to David Cameron as either 'The Prime Minister' or 'Mr Cameron' but not 'Prime Minister Cameron'.  Americans tend to say the latter and it sounds quite quaint.  The same obtains for other positions (it's not 'Foreign Secretary Hague' or 'Secretary Hague', but either 'The Foreign Secretary' or 'Mr Hague'.)

 

FWIW, most Brits have no idea how the titles of aristocracy and the royals work.

 

L

[Kathryn]

I didn't think there was a slight intended at all. I assumed it was more of a "she's one of us!" kind of thing.

[gardenmom5]

Actually, I'm kind of old fashioned about things like this and that includes in America too. So, I don't like it when President Obama or President Bush or President Clinton are referred to by their last names only. I still think it's appropriate to refer to a judge as "Your Honor or Judge X" and not as Mr., Mrs. Ms. and we do hear that in this area sometimes. I actually heard a teacher who teaches American Government and AP US History referred to Judge Gillespie as Mr. Gillespie and in front of students too!

 

If I get my PH.D, .

 

I'm quite old-fashioned.  I prefer only medical degree's being called "doctor" socially, which used to be the standard.  cuts down on confusion. (my dd receives her non medical doctorate next year. though it is an ancillary medical field. She starts her rotations in august. I would expect her to continue to go by "miss" socially.) 

 

Not all doctorates are PhDs (re: philosophy doctorate), so I'm not using that abbreviation.  I know other's in possession of doctorates in non-medical fields who also go by Miss/ms. or Mr. socially.  I also know some who are not medical dr's, but who insist on being called "dr." by one and all. one in particular who was insufferably pompous.  (and would have been that way even without any degree.)

 

both of my girls attended a small university - where most profs had at least one doctorate.  1dd said most of the best profs went by their first name and had great relationships with their students - everyone treated them with respect even though they weren't going by "doctor" (even those holding multiple doctorates.) that wasn't her experience with those few who did demand being called dr.  it's that concept of "if you have to tell everyone how smart/great/whatever you are - you probably aren't." 

 

it would be perfectly appropriate to refer to any of the above as "mr".  we do not live in an aristocracy. 

 

I wish I could find miss manners column on the subject, something about old titles,  new titles and opening umbrellas in people faces.  (it is in one of her earlier books, but I'm not up to a hunting expedition.)

[gardenmom5]

 The Duchess of Cambridge doesn't even use the name 'Kate' -but I might be wrong about that.  

 

I thought she went by Catherine.

 

I have a Katherine so I notice.  it was a VERY POPULAR name in the early 80's.  (at least in this area.)

[Danestress]

Apparently she can be properly referred to as Princess William of Wales but not as Princess Catherine. So confusing.

 

Presidents are properly referred to as "President Obama" upon first reference in a news article, but then as just Obama after that. This has been the norm for through many presidencies and is not a sign of disrespect.

 

People with doctorates may use 'Dr" professionally, especially in a time when many professors are not holders of doctorates. Socially they are generally referred to as Mr or Mrs/Miss/Ms unless they have pitched a fit and their friends and famy members have decided to humor them. I have many friends with doctorates and none of them call themselves 'doctor.' I do know people who do, though, and I will certainly call them "doctor" if I know they prefer that. My eye rolling is internal.

 

The naming thing that bothers me is when men are called by their last names and women by their first names. That annoys me. I watch a lot of tennis, and I notice a strong tendancy of commentators referring to male players by their last names but using first names for the females.

[Alicia64]

More importantly: why doesn't she wear undies? :confused1:

 

Back to the regularly scheduled program.

 

Alley

[umsami]

Actually, you would have to marry an Earl to be called a Countess.  I know... confusing, right?

 

Ugh…you're right… I watch enough Downton Abbey that I should know this.  I for some reason thought that there was also the title in the English language.

 

Well, the French (along with everybody else) once ruled Egypt, I'm going for making DH a Comte, and myself Comtesse. :)

 

Being royal is tough, I guess I"ll go back to be plain commoner Umsami.  

[umsami]

 

 

 

DP.

 

Regarding William Mountbatten-Windsor, my Dad read an interesting book recently about Countess Mountbatten of Burma.

[Laura Corin]

More importantly: why doesn't she wear undies? :confused1:

 

Back to the regularly scheduled program.

 

Alley

 

I suspect that, like many of her generation, she was wearing a thong and it wasn't visible in the photo.  Even in stores that cater to all ages, thongs make up about a quarter of the underwear on offer.

 

L

[Anacharsis]

Diana was the daughter of an Earl.  iow: an aristocrat - and was properly titled "lady Diana spencer" prior to her marriage.

the paparazzi still referred to Diana as "lady di" (short) until she married Charles, received a new title and officially became her royal highness, Diana, Princess of wales.  then, she became princess di (because paparazzi like short names.)

 

Kate was the daughter of a commoner - with no title.  because it is her fil who is the immediate heir to the throne, she wasn't given a "princess" title, but probably will when William becomes the immediate heir to the throne.

 

I read an article on this that described it the same way; the Prince/Princess title is reserved for those of royal blood alone. Since only her husband has royal blood, she would be "Princess William", but that's about as politically correct as calling someone's wife, "Mrs. Husband's-First-and-Last-Name". :-)

[KungFuPanda]

Americans tend to come across as sweetly over-formal when visiting the UK.  The normal form here is to refer to David Cameron as either 'The Prime Minister' or 'Mr Cameron' but not 'Prime Minister Cameron'.  Americans tend to say the latter and it sounds quite quaint.  The same obtains for other positions (it's not 'Foreign Secretary Hague' or 'Secretary Hague', but either 'The Foreign Secretary' or 'Mr Hague'.)

 

FWIW, most Brits have no idea how the titles of aristocracy and the royals work.

 

L

  

 

That's because we're just applying our own speech patterns to other governments. For us, it sounds normal to say "President Obama" or "The President" but I don't think I've ever heard him called "Mr. Obama." I'd assume someone was talking about some male relative of his rather than the President.

 

 

I'm quite old-fashioned.  I prefer only medical degree's being called "doctor" socially, which used to be the standard.  cuts down on confusion. (my dd receives her non medical doctorate next year. though it is an ancillary medical field. She starts her rotations in august. I would expect her to continue to go by "miss" socially.) 

 

Not all doctorates are PhDs (re: philosophy doctorate), so I'm not using that abbreviation.  I know other's in possession of doctorates in non-medical fields who also go by Miss/ms. or Mr. socially.  I also know some who are not medical dr's, but who insist on being called "dr." by one and all. one in particular who was insufferably pompous.  (and would have been that way even without any degree.)

 

both of my girls attended a small university - where most profs had at least one doctorate.  1dd said most of the best profs went by their first name and had great relationships with their students - everyone treated them with respect even though they weren't going by "doctor" (even those holding multiple doctorates.) that wasn't her experience with those few who did demand being called dr.  it's that concept of "if you have to tell everyone how smart/great/whatever you are - you probably aren't." 

 

it would be perfectly appropriate to refer to any of the above as "mr".  we do not live in an aristocracy. 

 

I wish I could find miss manners column on the subject, something about old titles,  new titles and opening umbrellas in people faces.  (it is in one of her earlier books, but I'm not up to a hunting expedition.)

Found it! And I agree. Don't insist. It's obnoxious. It's especially abrasive when the insisting begins before the ink is dry on your PhD.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q348PWE1p6MC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=miss+manners+doctor+opening+umbrellas&source=bl&ots=LDezP_6Lmp&sig=K5HgaRPNn-jdenLwf9IZcp3dMf4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Br-NU5HrMregsQTQhYC4Bg&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=miss%20manners%20doctor%20opening%20umbrellas&f=false

[chiguirre]

I read an article on this that described it the same way; the Prince/Princess title is reserved for those of royal blood alone. Since only her husband has royal blood, she would be "Princess William", but that's about as politically correct as calling someone's wife, "Mrs. Husband's-First-and-Last-Name". :-)

I'd only expect to see "Princess William" in the National Enquirer accompanied by a picture in drag.

[gardenmom5]

I read an article on this that described it the same way; the Prince/Princess title is reserved for those of royal blood alone. Since only her husband has royal blood, she would be "Princess William", but that's about as politically correct as calling someone's wife, "Mrs. Husband's-First-and-Last-Name". :-)

 

that was the norm for propriety up until about the 60's/70's.

 

the  Mrs. 'wife's first name husband's last name," or "wife's last name hyphen husband's last name" was reserved for divorced women.

[Ellie]

I read an article on this that described it the same way; the Prince/Princess title is reserved for those of royal blood alone. Since only her husband has royal blood, she would be "Princess William", but that's about as politically correct as calling someone's wife, "Mrs. Husband's-First-and-Last-Name". :-)

 

If you call me Mrs. Ellie Andrew, I will not be offended, exactly, but I will note that it is incorrect. I am Mrs. Ray Andrew, or I am Ms. Ellie Andrew, or I am Mrs. Andrew, or I am Ellie Andrew. I am never Mrs. Ellie Andrew. Please.

[gardenmom5]

  

 

That's because we're just applying our own speech patterns to other governments. For us, it sounds normal to say "President Obama" or "The President" but I don't think I've ever heard him called "Mr. Obama." I'd assume someone was talking about some male relative of his rather than the President.

 

 

 

Found it! And I agree. Don't insist. It's obnoxious. It's especially abrasive when the insisting begins before the ink is dry on your PhD.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q348PWE1p6MC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=miss+manners+doctor+opening+umbrellas&source=bl&ots=LDezP_6Lmp&sig=K5HgaRPNn-jdenLwf9IZcp3dMf4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Br-NU5HrMregsQTQhYC4Bg&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=miss%20manners%20doctor%20opening%20umbrellas&f=false

 

I love Miss Manners.  and I do agree, finding out someone hold's a particular doctorate is much more impressive than having them tell you repeatedly. I recall a printed program for an event in which a woman of my acquaintence was going to be speaking about an area of her professional expertise.  I knew she was an engineer - I did *not* know she was a doctor of engineering.  my admiration for her grew.

 

and since alot of lawyers are juris doctors - do you really want to call your lawyer "dr"?

 

[gardenmom5]

I'd only expect to see "Princess William" in the National Enquirer accompanied by a picture in drag.

 

Princess Michael of Kent maybe - she's quite the busybody.  She is the wife of the queen's cousin, Prince Michael.

[Ellie]

I love Miss Manners. 

 

 

Miss Manners is my favorite. :001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:

[KungFuPanda]

Miss Manners is my favorite. :001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:

If you changed your screen name to Miss Manners everyone would know it was you :-)

[Jeannie in NJ]

in our house we call her Princess Kate.  We know that is incorrect but we still like to call her that. It is not like the Royal Title Police will be coming to our house.

 

also my dh is a college professor and has his PhD.  He prefers that his students call him Professor rather than Dr.  Other professionals tend to call him Dr. tho.

[Belacqua]

and since alot of lawyers are juris doctors - do you really want to call your lawyer "dr"?

 

 

There was a guy in our law school class we all just knew would be the one to insist upon being called "doctor." We were not wrong.  :001_rolleyes:

[Rosie_0801]

This thread made me dream last night that Kate Middleton came to my house to bake scones.  :huh:

[Hunter's Moon]

I refer to her as Princess Kate simply because I always forget what (where?) she is the Duchess of.

 

No slight intended.

[Slartibartfast]

  

 

That's because we're just applying our own speech patterns to other governments. For us, it sounds normal to say "President Obama" or "The President" but I don't think I've ever heard him called "Mr. Obama." I'd assume someone was talking about some male relative of his rather than the President.

 

 

 

But it would be correct to refer to him as Mr Obama and people do.

 

Mr LastName is a correct way to refer to our Presidents. 

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ombudsman/2009/12/why_do_you_call_him_mr_obama.html

[KungFuPanda]

I never said it was incorrect, just that "President Obama" sounds normal to us so we tend to use "Title Lastname" for other world leaders too.

[Laura Corin]

I never said it was incorrect, just that "President Obama" sounds normal to us so we tend to use "Title Lastname" for other world leaders too.

 

I've actually been thinking about why we don't say 'Prime Minister Cameron'.  I think perhaps it is because in the British system it's a job not a title - no one elects the prime minister to be such (s/he is chosen to be head of a party and if that party wins, s/he becomes Prime Minister).  It would be like being called Teacher Smith or Engineer Jones.  That's the way people are often named in Chinese, but not in English.  

 

L

[curlgirl]

This thread made me dream last night that Kate Middleton came to my house to bake scones.  :huh:

Does she make good scones???? :)

[Rosie_0801]

Does she make good scones???? :)

 

I don't know. She got called back to the palace before she had time to make them and I woke up thinking I needed to send her a pot of the jam I was going to share. 

[Belacqua]

Does she make good scones???? :)

 

I choose to believe that she either makes excellent scones or doesn't and feels absolutely no guilt about buying them from her favorite bakery.

[Laura Corin]

I choose to believe that she either makes excellent scones or doesn't and feels absolutely no guilt about buying them from her favorite bakery.

 

I went to her former local bakery today to buy Hobbes a cupcake.  Then Hobbes forgot to leave school in time for his Chinese lesson.  And whilst I was waiting an hour for him to come out of school I ate his cupcake.  No, this is not a dream.

 

L

[LucyStoner]

There was a guy in our law school class we all just knew would be the one to insist upon being called "doctor." We were not wrong. :001_rolleyes:

Because of a JD degree? That's messed up.

[Belacqua]

Because of a JD degree? That's messed up.

 

Indeed. He expected to go into academics and figured "Doctor Pompoustwit" was warranted.