Okay, exactly how many of us have gone over to the dark side?

[Melissa in CA]

and I am going to lock you ALL up! :lol:

:lol:

[Jugglin'5]

But after reading Luther's "On the Bondage of the Will", I don't think he and Calvin had much disagreement in this area. Their disagreements were concerning the sacraments, the nature of the law, and a few other things. Also, there are many reformed Anglicans - after all, the Puritans were Anglicans, and there is a Reformed Episcopal Church right down the road from us. However, t this is definitely an intramural Protestant debate, unless you want to bring up Blaise Pascal and the Jansenists with the Roman Catholics.

 

...Given the original topic, I imagine that Lutherans, Episcopaleans, Catholics, or Orthodox believers might feel that they would be intruding if they came in here and starting stating their beliefs. Tempting though it might be at times. To me, even. But I've been stopping myself.

[VaKim]

and I am going to lock you ALL up! :lol:

 

I'm just thrilled not to have been accused of eating babies yet! :D

[Bess]

I wanted to make one more comment about the sharing of the gospel. Understanding more about election, I feel *more free* to share the gospel than ever before. There is such freedom in knowing it is not by *my words* that someone is saved, but by the Word of God. The bible says that salvation comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. So, if I am faithful in sharing His Word, I can rest in knowing that He will do the work in the person hearing. And then of course, all the glory goes to Him!

[VaKim]

I wanted to make one more comment about the sharing of the gospel. Understanding more about election, I feel *more free* to share the gospel than ever before. There is such freedom in knowing it is not by *my words* that someone is saved, but by the Word of God. The bible says that salvation comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. So, if I am faithful in sharing His Word, I can rest in knowing that He will do the work in the person hearing. And then of course, all the glory goes to Him!

 

Yes, yes! Before, I thought it was up to me, and how I presented things. Also, there was the possibility that no one I shared it with would "decide" to be saved. Now I KNOW that if I happen to share the gospel with one of the elect, they WILL eventually be saved, and I just might get to be a part of it (a planter or waterer)! :)

[Colleen]

And this is why I said in my first post in this thread why I feel like I have to hide my Reformed self from my nonReformed friends.;)

 

But I was not referring to conversations between Reformed and non-Reformed people. I was considering the impression a discussion like this may make upon an unbeliever.

 

I don't know if you were inferring, Colleen, that anyone in this thread had a tone of being strident or self-righteous but I certainly have not seen that at all.

 

Neither have I, but I lack objectivity as to how we sound to people who don't share these beliefs. If I were one of those people and I heard someone saying, "Some people are elect and ~ surprise! ~ I just happen to be one of them!", yes, that would strike me as self-righteous.

 

In fact, the Reformed should be among the most humble because we realize how pathetic we are; how we have not one ounce of anything to contribute to our salvation but that it is all of God.

 

I don't disagree.

 

"Some are chosen and some are not?" Well, that comes right out of Romans 9. There's no way around it. Is it that we should avoid talking about any "controversial" parts of the Word so that we don't offend the non-believers or the non-Reformed believers?

 

I don't know either. have mixed feelings about discussing controversial portions of Scripture in a setting such as this.

 

This happens far to often to me...my non-Reformed friends are allowed to talk to me about any non-Reformed position they hold because they think it's mainstream and all Christians believe that way. The minute I take on a Reformed flavor, they shut the conversation down.

 

I understand what you're saying. But if we recurrently repel people we're trying to seduce, perhaps there's a lesson to be learned there. (And I am not claiming to know what it may be. Just musing.)

[Robin in Tx]

mixed feelings about discussing controversial portions of Scripture in a setting such as this.

 

You know, that's kind of how I feel, too, and I'm growing more uncomfortable with the conversation to be honest. So I'll bow out now... and I'll also admit to spending a heck of a lot more time today thinking about what man says about God than what God might be saying to me. Eek.

[mommaduck]

and I am going to lock you ALL up! :lol:

 

Naw, we'd just have to have a debate on the Regulative Principle vs the Normative Principle. :D

[VaKim]

Naw, we'd just have to have a debate on the Regulative Principle vs the Normative Principle. :D

 

Or supralapsarianism vs infralapsarianism. :)

[mommaduck]

Or supralapsarianism vs infralapsarianism. :)

and monergism vs synergism ;)

[HappyGrace]

responses, and now I'm going to get out of here and go be a Berean and spend lots of time with my Bible and a concordance to see how the Lord speaks to *me* about this topic/debate that I never even knew existed! Very enlightening discussion and I appreciate the helpful responses to my personal questions too, so thank you!

[HappyGrace]

nt

[Jan P.]

If I say how long, then you'll know how old I am!!

[Rose in BC]

I grew up in a typical evangelical, christian church and home (and am very thankful for my parent's diligence in raising us in a Christian home). But, I've got to say, once I was introduced to reformed theology (and got over the initial, typical arguments about why it was wrong) I feel like I was "born again, born again" -- like I had just read the bible for the first time and understood it. It has brought scripture alive for me.

 

I haven't read any of the responses yet but am going through to do that now. (I initially thought "gone over to the dark side" was some kind of Star Wars terminology or something! lol!)

 

I also agree about locking up newly reformed people :iagree: I know a few "enthusiastic reformers".

[Remudamom]

Just for the record, Hyper Calvinism is historically defined as referring to those who think that the gospel should be preached only to the elect, which means you have to somehow discern who they are before you preach to them, which is impossible. It is totally unbiblical.

 

People today use the term to mean different things, but it has a well-entrenched history being defined as the above. It used to be a bigger problem that it is now I think. I don't even know any Hyper Calvinists.

 

:)

 

Think we'd get in trouble running around and lifting up shirts to check for yellow streaks?

 

So what would be the term for those who think they are saved and therefore can do whatever they want........dare I suggest.......donkeys?:001_smile:

[Remudamom]

I don't know a single non-calvinist who thinks that way. Seriously. That is a gross misrepresentation of how people (who believe in free will) view their actions. You don't have to believe in election to appreciate and be humbled by God's grace...

 

Like me to introduce you to some?

[CAMom]

 

But I was not referring to conversations between Reformed and non-Reformed people. I was considering the impression a discussion like this may make upon an unbeliever.

 

OK, I hear what you're saying. But, if we're worried about the impression that this type of discussion will have on a unbeliever than we can never talk about spiritual things in the company of unbelievers. Frankly, if we're being true to the Scripture, then any conversation we have with the Word as the center will leave a bad tast in an unbeliever's mouth because it is foolishness to them.

 

 

 

Neither have I, but I lack objectivity as to how we sound to people who don't share these beliefs. If I were one of those people and I heard someone saying, "Some people are elect and ~ surprise! ~ I just happen to be one of them!", yes, that would strike me as self-righteous.

 

Fair enough but won't any conversation about the way to heaven being only possible through faith in Christ, and, by the way, I happen to have that faith also sound self-righteous? In other words, "I'm better than you because I knew enough to choose Christ"? I think it can sound equally self-righteous to a non-believer.

 

 

I don't know either. have mixed feelings about discussing controversial portions of Scripture in a setting such as this.

 

Being a newer member of this community, I can defer to you on that. Frankly, though, any portion of Scripture will be controversial to one who does not believe in its authority. Believers should be able to peacefully discuss any portion of it. I think that has actually been beautifully demonstrated here as there has not been a single ad hominem attack and the discourse has been more than charitable.

 

 

I understand what you're saying. But if we recurrently repel people we're trying to seduce, perhaps there's a lesson to be learned there. (And I am not claiming to know what it may be. Just musing.)

 

I understand what you're saying, too, but the difference may be that I'm not trying to seduce anyone. That's the job of the Holy Spirit.

 

Incidentally, the topic just started as one member asking who else was Reformed. It turned into an exchange of different perspectives when some non-Reformed believers asked some interesting questions.:)

[*anj*]

...Given the original topic, I imagine that Lutherans, Episcopaleans, Catholics, or Orthodox believers might feel that they would be intruding if they came in here and starting stating their beliefs. Tempting though it might be at times. To me, even. But I've been stopping myself.

Yeah, but strictly speaking wouldn't they all be considered Arminians?

[Soph the vet]

I was gone for a week and looks like I've missed quite the thread. I have not read all the posts but I've seen John Piper quoted here and there. I must be in a reformed church then because he is my pastor:lol:!!

[Gailmegan]

I am way too tired to read all 27 pages of posts, so I'll just answer the original question. 37 years. I've been Presbyterian my whole life. My parents met as teeenagers on a Presbyterian youth group retreat, both their churches were there. We did attend a non-denom church for a while, but the head pastor came out of the PCA, so the underlying currents were very Reformed while still allowing a more broadly evangelical focus. Even while we were there I was confident of where I stood with regards to doctrine and had quite a few friendly yet lively debates with those of other stripes. To show just how Reformed I am: I went to Westminster Theological Seminary and our family is now active in the PCA.

[Jugglin'5]

Yeah, but strictly speaking wouldn't they all be considered Arminians?

 

Not necessarily - here is my earlier response: #252

 

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=475245&postcount=252

[Melissa in CA]

But, I've got to say, once I was introduced to reformed theology (and got over the initial, typical arguments about why it was wrong) I feel like I was "born again, born again" -- like I had just read the bible for the first time and understood it. It has brought scripture alive for me.

 

This was/has been my experience as well. I think that is why 'newbies' are so gung ho...it's WONDERFULLY I-want-to-explain-it-to-everyone-I-know-whether-they-want-to-hear-it-or-not exciting!!

 

Unfortunately, if let out of 'lock down', it often takes a few ruffled feathers and a couple firm we are NOT interested put downs before they venture back into the realm of the unoffensive. :D

[Carol in Cal.]

Yeah, but strictly speaking wouldn't they all be considered Arminians?

 

(Unless you were just kidding or wanted to be very very insulting.) (The first seems plausible, and the second, not at all.) (Love, Carol in Cal.)

[mommaduck]

I went to Westminster Theological Seminary and our family is now active in the PCA.

 

Which one? Or do I know already (are you the "if she weighs the same as a duck..." Gail I know?) :)

[teamturner]

Reformed here too for 13 years and in the PCA all the while (5 churches due to moves). I grew up Southern Baptist and fell away from the faith in college. In 1994 when my then fiance' said, "I think we should go to church," to me before we were married, we ended up going to a PCA church. Through the years, I can look back and see how in the beginning of being reformed, I should have kept my mouth shut more often with my family. But I think that now I really understand what grace is all about!

[Gailmegan]

Which one? Or do I know already (are you the "if she weighs the same as a duck..." Gail I know?) :)

 

Ruh-roh! I've been found out! :D *waves hello*

[mommaduck]

*waves back and does a little dance for finding a friend* LOL! You know I came thisclose to mentioning this thread earlier today...

[*anj*]

To show just how Reformed I am: I went to Westminster Theological Seminary and our family is now active in the PCA.

Cool. I have two good (female) friends who attend Westminster right now.

[*anj*]

(Unless you were just kidding or wanted to be very very insulting.) (The first seems plausible, and the second, not at all.) (Love, Carol in Cal.)

Nope, I was being very tongue in cheek and should've used the emoticon. I would never want to be insulting, much less very, very insulting. ;)

[Cricket]

My dad was a pastor and I grew up under Calvinist/Doctrines of Grace teaching. I guess I didn't realize it was such a big deal! :lol: I've always been on the dark side apparently.

 

Here is one of my brother's blogs:

The Contemporary Calvinist

[popmom]

Made up my mind to register after reading this thread (well, most of it anyway). It was the whole "cage" thing that made me feel very at home in this discussion lol. I thought, "You mean I'm not the only one?"

 

I'm a closet Calvinist in a Baptist church. :)

 

I've been reformed since the moment I came to know Christ 10 yrs ago--only I didn't know the term at the time. I was raised Southern Baptist, and I'm still a member of a Southern Baptist church. It's hard for me though. I feel like I'm on a completely different wavelength from everyone I go to church with. People are either indifferent, completely misunderstand, or downright hostile to reformed doctrine, so I just keep my mouth shut.

 

We've recently moved from Birmingham, AL to San Antonio, TX. My husband and I are really struggling with finding a church. He has no desire to go to a reformed church. He reluctantly visited a PCA church here with me, but he didn't like it. Too liturgical for him. Too small. Not enough stuff for the children, etc. It just makes me so sad that we are so far apart on this. This is going to be hard. Any advice is appreciated.

 

Oh, and I probably should still be in a cage. :blush:

[Karen FL]

Yes! Our children are starting to learn the Heidelberg. They were memorizing the Shorter WCF.

 

Aimee, as a pp stated...to be Reformed IS to be a "calvinist". Then there are those that are "calvinistic" or "calvinist" in the area of the Doctrines of Grace, but reject other things that are also essential to Reformed Theology, thus they are not considered Reformed...

 

Mommaduck,

Why did you switch from the WCF to the Heidelberg?

Karen

Former PCAer now OPCer

Newer Christian of five years, reformed x five years

[Karen FL]

Can I just ask one thing before I listen? Because I'm trying to maintain balance here in my mind. Couldn't it happen that I could listen to John Piper preach his way through Romans, and then listen to a non-Reformed pastor preach his way through it with the opposite view? That's what's confusing me-it is actually like sides of a coin, and you have to pick one or the other. I'm afraid at this point to listen to one side or the other, since I'm pretty much a "double-minded man" at this point-I guess I just need to study the Scriptures for myself and try to figure out what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell me. If it weren't for needing to find a church, I wouldn't be in such a hurry to try to figure this out!

 

Grace,

You have great questions.

You may benefit from vistiting an Orthodox Presbyterian Church or a conservative PCA church. Some PCA churches are not conservative though. If you attended a new members class you could ask questions about the reformed faith. It is not mandatory for you to join the church after taking such a class.

Karen

[Melissa in CA]

I feel like I'm on a completely different wavelength from everyone I go to church with. People are either indifferent, completely misunderstand, or downright hostile to reformed doctrine, so I just keep my mouth shut.

 

Boy howdy, can I relate! I mentioned this in another thread I started a day or so before this one began in regards to when to know it's time to find a new church. I have been a Calvinist for going on 7 years, but the whole time I have attended a non-denominational church. Heaven forbid I mention too much about my Calvinistic beliefs! The looks one gets...very patronizing and insulting to say the least. So we have been closet Calvinists all these years, though our pastor does know what we believe as we have questioned him or a sermon of his many times over the years. ;)

 

Recently it has begun to bother us greatly and we are thinking it is time to find a church with like-beliefs. We are stagnating where we are; not growing. Change IS hard though, especially since we are so involved in our church...but to start being fed again? To look FORWARD to the pastors sermon? [sigh] That would be a blessing indeed!;)

[Melissa in CA]

Grace,

You have great questions.

You may benefit from vistiting an Orthodox Presbyterian Church or a conservative PCA church. Some PCA churches are not conservative though. Karen

 

I know this entire thread is getting quite long, but can someone explain to me the different types of reformed churches? I see OPC and PCA and others, and for one who has never been to an official reformed church, but is currently looking to attend a church that upholds all 5 points, I must confess a bit of confusion in regards to them. :confused1:

[Karen FL]

I think I must be more toward the Reformed view, but when I read those points this morning, I don't like the limited atonement one. However, I can see how it fits with the other four points, as in, why would He have died for all if only the elect needed it.

 

 

Grace,

I love your thoughts on this subject matter. I can see that the Holy Spirit is stirring your heart.

I wonder if anyone likes the idea of limited atonement. For example, when we think of our unsaved relatives and dear friends not being chosen by God it makes us sad. It makes me terribly sad. It frightens me. :001_huh:

I was raised in the Jehovah's Witness (JW) cult from the age of 18 months. I have been saved for only five years. I was saved in a reformed church. My mother; my sister; her husband and two children; my brother; one maternal and paternal Aunt; and one paternal uncle are still in the JW religion. If I sit and allow myself to mediate on the fact that the Lord has not chosen for them to recognize the Deity of Christ, I freak completely out. The first time I read John 3:18 with understanding I was overcome with grief for my family.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Rather than wallow in my angst, I pray and meditate on the names of God and His perfect and Holy attributes. When I reflect on His attributes by faith I trust that His ways are perfect and His plan is perfect. I must trust God even if I am uncomfortable with limited atonement.

Praise the Lord for His grace, mercy, and perfect wisdom.

In Christ,

Karen

[Karen FL]

mommaduck, and so was the James White quote. I guess it just seems that if God is sovereign, He could in His sovereignty give us the freedom to choose. I don't see how allowing humans to choose would make Him lose His sovereignty...I'm not arguing-I actually like the other point of view much better-that He loved us so much that He chose us-"us" being the elect. I do think that point of view would make you feel even more grateful that you were chosen by Him. I think taking yourself and your choosing out of the equation lends security. I'm just trying to reconcile all this in my mind!

 

I am so glad I don't have to rely on myself in this matter. I am so fickle and capricious. My emotions and choices change with the wind. With God as my Rock I am more secure and assured of my salvation knowing that He has chosen me and He will uphold me to the end.

 

I am no different from the apostle Peter who said He would never deny Jesus and then he denied Him three times. I am also filled with unbelief during stressful moments. "Oh, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!"

 

I remember when I didn't believe that Jesus was God. My heart was stony and hard. I would try kneel to pray and I couldn't and wouldn't. I was totally seperated from God. I wanted to live a life apart from God and carry out my own will. When the Lord removed the scales from my eyes, I fell on my knees literally. My knees and legs were like spaghetti noodles. They were no longer rigid. It wasn't that I was certainly smart. The Lord had regenerated me and He chose me. And once I believed nothing could stand in the way of me NOT believing. I remember it like it was yesterday. Amazing grace!

[NevadaRabbit]

I am so glad I don't have to rely on myself in this matter. I am so fickle and capricious. My emotions and choices change with the wind. With God as my Rock I am more secure and assured of my salvation knowing that He has chosen me and He will uphold me to the end.

 

I am no different from the apostle Peter who said He would never deny Jesus and then he denied Him three times. I am also filled with unbelief during stressful moments. "Oh, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!"

 

I remember when I didn't believe that Jesus was God. My heart was stony and hard. I would try kneel to pray and I couldn't and wouldn't. I was totally seperated from God. I wanted to live a life apart from God and carry out my own will. When the Lord removed the scales from my eyes, I fell on my knees literally. My knees and legs were like spaghetti noodles. They were no longer rigid. It wasn't that I was certainly smart. The Lord had regenerated me and He chose me. And once I believed nothing could stand in the way of me NOT believing. I remember it like it was yesterday. Amazing grace!

 

Karen, your testimony is beautiful and stirring and I'm praising the Lord because of it! :001_smile:

[Alenee]

I am so glad I don't have to rely on myself in this matter. I am so fickle and capricious. My emotions and choices change with the wind. With God as my Rock I am more secure and assured of my salvation knowing that He has chosen me and He will uphold me to the end.

 

I am no different from the apostle Peter who said He would never deny Jesus and then he denied Him three times. I am also filled with unbelief during stressful moments. "Oh, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!"

 

I remember when I didn't believe that Jesus was God. My heart was stony and hard. I would try kneel to pray and I couldn't and wouldn't. I was totally seperated from God. I wanted to live a life apart from God and carry out my own will. When the Lord removed the scales from my eyes, I fell on my knees literally. My knees and legs were like spaghetti noodles. They were no longer rigid. It wasn't that I was certainly smart. The Lord had regenerated me and He chose me. And once I believed nothing could stand in the way of me NOT believing. I remember it like it was yesterday. Amazing grace!

 

What a great testimony! I'm glad to hear your pov.

 

After considering Romans last night, I realized I pretty much already believed Calvin's pov, (and have actually defended it to people) with the exception of it being up to me to make a choice. I read and read and word studied last night for several hours and walked away with a mixed reaction. On the one hand I'm joyful because I know He had already chosen me and I didn't have to make a choice to believe, however otoh, it made me extremely sad to know that there are people He created that just won't be saved because He planned it that way. I'm still very mixed up and am planning to meet with my Pastor's wife this week to discuss it. Very mixed feelings. Not sure if it's anger at God or anger at my past teachers for teaching the wrong thing.

 

So now I have another question. One of the ladies in the thread mentioned to Mellisa to find a church that teaches through the bible, not topical. I belong to a through-the-bible church and love it so much more than my past church. No teaching to "felt-needs". I'm curious though...do any of you think that is one major difference between felt-need churches and through-the-bible churches, that they know it's the Holy Spirit's work and the Word need only be preached whereas otoh, the felt-need churches are doing that based on the idea that if they make it sound good, then they'll convince people to "make the choice" for Christ? Just my musings....when we left our old church I was talking with a friend about the teaching style. I said something to the effect of, "If they speak the Word, it's the Holy Spirit who will or will not open their hearts. There's no reason to be watering down the sermons."

[Tracy in Ky]

I wanted to make one more comment about the sharing of the gospel. Understanding more about election, I feel *more free* to share the gospel than ever before. There is such freedom in knowing it is not by *my words* that someone is saved, but by the Word of God. The bible says that salvation comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. So, if I am faithful in sharing His Word, I can rest in knowing that He will do the work in the person hearing. And then of course, all the glory goes to Him!

 

:iagree:

[VaKim]

 

So now I have another question. One of the ladies in the thread mentioned to Mellisa to find a church that teaches through the bible, not topical. I belong to a through-the-bible church and love it so much more than my past church. No teaching to "felt-needs". I'm curious though...do any of you think that is one major difference between felt-need churches and through-the-bible churches, that they know it's the Holy Spirit's work and the Word need only be preached whereas otoh, the felt-need churches are doing that based on the idea that if they make it sound good, then they'll convince people to "make the choice" for Christ? Just my musings....when we left our old church I was talking with a friend about the teaching style. I said something to the effect of, "If they speak the Word, it's the Holy Spirit who will or will not open their hearts. There's no reason to be watering down the sermons."

Absolutely. If we think it is up to us to convince people, we may do just anything that we think will make them "convert." However, if we realize that it is the work of the Holy Spirit, using the means of the Word of God, to convict and transform His elect, we have no need to do anything more than:

 

2 Timothy 4:2

preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

[mommaduck]

Mommaduck,

Why did you switch from the WCF to the Heidelberg?

Karen

Former PCAer now OPCer

Newer Christian of five years, reformed x five years

 

Because we went from a Scottish Reformed church to a Dutch Reformed church ;) URCNA :D

[Karen FL]

This is not r/t the topic onhand but I was wondering if anyone knows of a reformed bible teaching church in the Fort Eustis, VA area. I'm asking for a homeschooling friend whose husband is deployed in Iraq.

 

If so, please send me a PM.

[Kathleen in VA]

Regarding limited atonement.

 

My husband taught me about this doctrine when we were first dating and I have to agree that it was hard to understand and seemed awfully harsh. But my husband assured me that God is a loving God and that He is a just God as well. He NEVER does anything wrong or that is not just and good and loving. Although I may not be able to completely understand how that works given my finite mind and limited ability to comprehend an infinite God, I can trust and know that God is good all the time and that perfect justice will be served.

 

One of my blog posts is about the amazing grace of God towards the thief on the cross who repented in the very last minutes of his life only a short time after he had been mocking and reviling Christ. Here was a man who up until perhaps the last ten minutes of his existence on this earth was an enemy of God. Mercifully, God opened his eyes and saved him. This is the story I meditate on when I think of my lost loved ones. As long as there is breath there is hope.

[Cricket]

Made up my mind to register after reading this thread (well, most of it anyway). It was the whole "cage" thing that made me feel very at home in this discussion lol. I thought, "You mean I'm not the only one?"

 

I'm a closet Calvinist in a Baptist church. :)

 

I've been reformed since the moment I came to know Christ 10 yrs ago--only I didn't know the term at the time. I was raised Southern Baptist, and I'm still a member of a Southern Baptist church. It's hard for me though. I feel like I'm on a completely different wavelength from everyone I go to church with. People are either indifferent, completely misunderstand, or downright hostile to reformed doctrine, so I just keep my mouth shut.

 

We've recently moved from Birmingham, AL to San Antonio, TX. My husband and I are really struggling with finding a church. He has no desire to go to a reformed church. He reluctantly visited a PCA church here with me, but he didn't like it. Too liturgical for him. Too small. Not enough stuff for the children, etc. It just makes me so sad that we are so far apart on this. This is going to be hard. Any advice is appreciated.

 

Oh, and I probably should still be in a cage. :blush:

 

When my parents lived in Tennessee for awhile they found a Southern Baptist church affiliated with the Founder's Movement. Those churches are Calvinist. Maybe you could find a church like that near you?

[Carol in Cal.]

 

One of my blog posts is about the amazing grace of God towards the thief on the cross who repented in the very last minutes of his life only a short time after he had been mocking and reviling Christ. Here was a man who up until perhaps the last ten minutes of his existence on this earth was an enemy of God. Mercifully, God opened his eyes and saved him. This is the story I meditate on when I think of my lost loved ones. As long as there is breath there is hope.

 

The one who was mocking Him was the not the one that was saved. The one that was saved rebuked the one that was mocking Him, and then said, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." (A pretty astounding profession of faith, considering that they were both dying on crosses at the time.) And then Jesus replied, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

[Kathleen in VA]

The one who was mocking Him was the not the one that was saved. The one that was saved rebuked the one that was mocking Him, and then said, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." (A pretty astounding profession of faith, considering that they were both dying on crosses at the time.) And then Jesus replied, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

They were both mocking him at one point. Here's a quote from my blog article on the subject:

 

I was reading Matthew’s account of how Jesus was mocked by both the Romans and the Jews while he was being crucified and something caught me completely off guard. I had never noticed it before - ever!

 

Matthew 27:44 says “Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.†(NKJV)

 

Now I have often heard about the thief on the cross who repented and was promised paradise, so this verse confused me. Notice it says, “robbers†not “one of the robbers.â€

 

Mark 15:32 also refers to plural thieves, not singular thief. “Even those who were crucified with Him reviled Him.†(NKJV). Two eyewitnesses clearly reported two thieves being crucified with Christ and two thieves reviling Him.

[wide eyes & laughter]

Why do you assume that a lot of non-Calvinists don't know or understand what they believe?

 

I was wondering this myself. My dh (and consequently I, too) wandered over to the Reformed side for a short while. But so much of those 5 points did not resonate in my spirit. There was a lot I didn't take time to understand, admittedly. But suffice it to say I know a whole lot better now what I *do* believe than I did while entertaining Calvinist teachings.

 

Couldn't help myself,

Cheryl

[VaKim]

They were both mocking him at one point. Here's a quote from my blog article on the subject:

 

I was reading Matthew’s account of how Jesus was mocked by both the Romans and the Jews while he was being crucified and something caught me completely off guard. I had never noticed it before - ever!

 

Matthew 27:44 says “Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.†(NKJV)

 

Now I have often heard about the thief on the cross who repented and was promised paradise, so this verse confused me. Notice it says, “robbers†not “one of the robbers.â€

 

Mark 15:32 also refers to plural thieves, not singular thief. “Even those who were crucified with Him reviled Him.†(NKJV). Two eyewitnesses clearly reported two thieves being crucified with Christ and two thieves reviling Him.

 

Right. But most times preachers only expound on the telling from Luke. It fits more with their theology. Unless you are a Calvinist, you don't really know how to handle the fact that both thieves were originally reviling him, both were exposed to the same things, heard the same things, saw the same things, yet one, for some reason, suddenly had his heart changed at the last minute. It's all the glorious grace of God!

[Staci in MO]

I said that in jest. I didn't expect to be shunned, exactly. :001_smile: