Okay, exactly how many of us have gone over to the dark side?

[Remudamom]

Well, whatever it is, it isn't a big thing around here.

 

PMed you. All shall now be clear as mud.

[Laura K (NC)]

It's a Reformed board, A Better Country. I first visited the "Renewing Your Mind" message board about 11 years ago... my first experience with message boards. That board closed and "A Better Country" was formed. There are some great people on there, and very bright. I'm not Reformed, but it was interesting to me to figure out how many "points" I was (as a Catholic), and to learn our similarities and differences.

 

I only lurk there now. I haven't posted in about 6 months. I consider them long-term friends, even if we disagree on certain "points." :)

[mommaduck]

Okay, in a couple of short sentences and using words of one syllable, what is "reformed"? I've never heard of it.

 

Thanks,

 

RC

 

:lol: Sorry, but a Reformed person can't say ANYTHING in that small amount of space!

 

here's a small history: http://reformedtheology.org/SiteFiles/WhatIsRT.html

[Remudamom]

Will you tolerate a curiousity post?

 

What is the difference between Reformed and other Protestant Christians?

 

 

This is probably too simplistic an answer, but...........there's Reformed and there's Arminian.

[Spy Car]

It's funny, but in my neighborhood if you said you're *reformed* everyone would assume you were a Reform Jew. :D

 

Play on!

 

Bill

[Kathleen in VA]

Will you tolerate a curiousity post?

 

What is the difference between Reformed and other Protestant Christians?

 

I can't speak for everyone here, but by and large I think that "Reformed" Christians subscribe to a set of doctrines commonly called The Doctrines of Grace. Another large subset of Protestants are called Arminian (not Armenian:D). Many books have discussed these two viewpoints, some thin, some quite thick. It would be difficult to explain the two adequately in a forum such as this, imo. I would encourage you to google "Doctrines of Grace" to get an idea of the Reformed viewpoint.

 

I already did that and found several sites that explain these doctrines at great length. Here is one that covers the main ideas in not so many words:

 

http://www.grace.org.uk/faith/calvin.html

 

Some preachers that teach from a Doctrines of Grace pov are John Piper and John MacArthur. There are many more but these are two I am the most familiar with.

[mommaduck]

apuritansmind.com is a very thorough site ;)

 

You will also find quite a few differences between Reformed and Reformed Baptists...but those start getting into details.

[WTMindy]

I was raised reformed, but kind of keep it to myself. I went to a non-reformed Christian college and now go to a non-denom church. I don't like to get into it with people because I don't think it is a saved/not saved issue and just upsets people. To me the big thing is whether you believe that Christ on the Cross did all the work for salvation or did we have something to do with it. I think a lot of non-Calvinists don't really know or understand what they believe. But I don't like to make it my job to explain it to them. The older my kids get, I sometimes wonder if I would like to go to a reformed church, but so far we don't.

 

Why do you assume that a lot of non-Calvinists don't know or understand what they believe?

[Carol in Cal.]

I can't speak for everyone here, but by and large I think that "Reformed" Christians subscribe to a set of doctrines commonly called The Doctrines of Grace. Another large subset of Protestants are called Arminian (not Armenian:D). Many books have discussed these two viewpoints, some thin, some quite thick. It would be difficult to explain the two adequately in a forum such as this, imo. I would encourage you to google "Doctrines of Grace" to get an idea of the Reformed viewpoint.

 

I already did that and found several sites that explain these doctrines at great length. Here is one that covers the main ideas in not so many words:

 

http://www.grace.org.uk/faith/calvin.html

 

Some preachers that teach from a Doctrines of Grace pov are John Piper and John MacArthur. There are many more but these are two I am the most familiar with.

 

Lutherans are not Arminian and not Reformed, although they are reformed and in fact kicked off the Reformation. Clear as mud? Thought so...

[nakitty]

Well, I had to look it up first...LOL....but I would say....the older I get the less likely I am to ever being able to have beliefs along those lines... I just seem to get less and less religious through the years...

[Kathleen in VA]

Lutherans are not Arminian and not Reformed, although they are reformed and in fact kicked off the Reformation. Clear as mud? Thought so...

 

Yes, I think there are lots of Protestants that are neither Reformed nor Arminian. I almost said, "The *other* subset of Protestant," but opted for "a large subset" - not necessarily everyone who is *not* Reformed. Btw, I cried when I read Martin Luther's conversion story - just precious. I love the hymn "A Mighty Fortress is Our God," too.:)

[Rosy]

Calvanist but not Reformed. Think John MacArthur rather than R.C. Sproul.

 

And there were a few years where I definitely could have use that cage, along with a big fat roll of duct tape! I was sure that everyone I knew was going to hell.:001_huh:

[Kate CA]

I'm here, but it isn't dark. It is gloriously bright :)

 

Amen, Tracy! Yes, I am reformed. :)

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Why do you assume that a lot of non-Calvinists don't know or understand what they believe?

 

I think that's a very good question! :lurk5:

[NevadaRabbit]

I think that's a very good question! :lurk5:

 

(re why non-Calvinists may not know or understand what they believe)

 

I'm takin' a stab here. A belief in the doctrines of Calvinism doesn't come over you the day you believe in Christ. An understanding of the nuances of Calvinism is usually the result of study and purposeful delving into the "how" of salvation. In my experience, there aren't a lot of Christians who get into reading the old dead guys who originally wrote about it, and there are a lot of Christians who get saved and don't go much deeper into the Word than memorizing some verses and listening to the pastor on Sunday. I'm not saying every Christian is that way, and I'm not saying every Christian who is that way is not a Calvinist. It's just a pretty generally observable trend that Calvinists tend to be folks who have studied a lot of doctrine.

[newlifemom]

Well it's been 20yrs and I am more on the reformed/Calvanist side than ever before. Although I still don't understand all the nuances. That said, I have read John MacArthur and listened to R C Sproul. I like what I have read.

[scrappyhappymama]

:lol: Sorry, but a Reformed person can't say ANYTHING in that small amount of space!

 

here's a small history: http://reformedtheology.org/SiteFiles/WhatIsRT.html

 

 

So interesting. I must live in an area of the country where this is not as popular, because I had not heard the term 'reformed' used in this way before. I read the link, and I really totally agree with the definition of reformed, all except for the Calvinism part. So I'd have to go with Reformed, but not Calvinist. :001_smile:

[NevadaRabbit]

So interesting. I must live in an area of the country where this is not as popular, because I had not heard the term 'reformed' used in this way before. I read the link, and I really totally agree with the definition of reformed, all except for the Calvinism part. So I'd have to go with Reformed, but not Calvinist. :001_smile:

 

Well, it can be pretty generally accepted that to be Reformed, you adhere to Calvinism. All Calvinists are not necessarily Reformed, but all Reformed Christians are Calvinists.

 

Calvinism is the set of beliefs that deals with how we are saved. Reformed theology embraces Calvinist soteriology, as well as a particular set of beliefs with respect to ecclesiology, eschatology, and baptism.

 

Clear as mud? We keep ending up in this mud puddle...

[Julie in CA]

My dh was born into a solid Dutch Reformed family. In fact, I think they've been Reformed for as many generations as anyone can remember, back in Holland.

 

I had never attended church, but was invited to a Reformed church when I was about 15 years old. It's where I met my dh, and I've never wanted to stray (either from the husband, or the denomination, lol!)

 

Reformed beliefs seem logical and correct to me, though there are some things about the church that I think aren't strictly the right way to do things.

 

We started out as CRC, but ended up RCUS when we moved about 18 years ago.

 

So...do any of you have dc memorizing the Heidelberg Catechism?

[newlifemom]

My dh was born into a solid Dutch Reformed family. In fact, I think they've been Reformed for as many generations as anyone can remember, back in Holland.

 

I had never attended church, but was invited to a Reformed church when I was about 15 years old. It's where I met my dh, and I've never wanted to stray (either from the husband, or the denomination, lol!)

 

Reformed beliefs seem logical and correct to me, though there are some things about the church that I think aren't strictly the right way to do things.

 

We started out as CRC, but ended up RCUS when we moved about 18 years ago.

 

So...do any of you have dc memorizing the Heidelberg Catechism?

 

I am trying to memorize it does that count? :D I have to say that I am being wooed by the "dark" side, even here. It's funny, It all started with homeschooling. Watch out homeschoolers the dark side wants you. :lol:

[mommaduck]

Yes! Our children are starting to learn the Heidelberg. They were memorizing the Shorter WCF.

 

Aimee, as a pp stated...to be Reformed IS to be a "calvinist". Then there are those that are "calvinistic" or "calvinist" in the area of the Doctrines of Grace, but reject other things that are also essential to Reformed Theology, thus they are not considered Reformed...

[scrappyhappymama]

Well, it can be pretty generally accepted that to be Reformed, you adhere to Calvinism. All Calvinists are not necessarily Reformed, but all Reformed Christians are Calvinists.

 

Calvinism is the set of beliefs that deals with how we are saved. Reformed theology embraces Calvinist soteriology, as well as a particular set of beliefs with respect to ecclesiology, eschatology, and baptism.

 

Clear as mud? We keep ending up in this mud puddle...

 

That does make sense. I was basing my (silly) comments on this information in one of the links that was posted:

 

What is “Reformed"?

 

The leaders of this branch of the church understood themselves to be "reformed" in two ways: first, they were "reformed" from what they believed to be the defective practice of Christianity promulgated by the corrupt Roman Catholicism of the day. Sometimes, this position is summed up in the phrase "Ecclesia Reformata, semper reformanda," which means "the Reformed church, always to be reformed." In the context of the sixteenth century (and the mind of the Reformers) this phrase does not mean that the church is always morphing into something new with the passage of time (a common misconstrual in our own day). Instead, this seventeenth-century motto is consistent with the Reformers' idea that they were not innovating, but "turning again" to the form of the church and belief originated by Jesus Christ, lived out by the first disciples and early church, and born witness to in the writings of the Old and New Testaments shorn of later additions.

Second, as implied above, Reformed means rejecting the idea that tradition can provide a sufficient form for matters of belief. Instead, the Reformers insisted that "the Word of God" was the only ultimate source of appeal in matters of faith, and that all other sources of knowledge, including a church's tradition, had to appeal to this central source.

 

 

I was intrigued because I completely agree with both of these points, as stated, and so would be "reformed" by this simple definition, but obviously not by the complete meaning as understood and practiced by the folks posting here.

I read this thread out of curiosity, and was trying to be cute with my reply (reformed but not calvinist, since others had said calvinist but not reformed), but I realize it is rude to be flippant with other's beliefs and I am sorry for intruding on your discussion like this!

[mommaduck]

Aimee, I didn't take you as flippant and rude and I doubt anyone else will take you that way either :) I enjoy the questions, but I didn't have time to get into a long answer. And I know "keeping it short" was mentioned. Unfortunately, the "short" of it isn't the whole of it. I guess I gave more of a history than the theology of "Reformed". Answering specific questions about what we believe on this or that is easier than condensing the whole of Reformed Theology. There is a booklet out called "What Is Reformed Theology" ;) That is the best condensed version I know of.

 

Here's where you can find the accepted confessions and creeds :)

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html

Particularly of note for Reformed people will be the Canons of Dordt, the Belgic Confession, the Heidelberg Confession (these are known as the Three Forms of Unity), and the Westminster Confession of Faith. The Baptists came along and adjusted the Westminster to suit their needs and that became known as the London Baptist Confession of Faith...a lot of baptists today no longer hold to that Confession though...those that do would be known as Reformed Baptists or Primitive Baptists.

[VaKim]

As many have said, we are Calvinists, but not reformed. Nobody likes us, in other words. :D Non-Calvinists think we are in some kind of cult (actually accused of that by in-laws), and reformed folk think we are not "reformed" enough.

 

As far as we know, we are the only Calvinists in our town at all. When you say "reformed" here, people think it means you've recently gotten out of the insane asylum.

 

And as someone else said, we are definitely in the LIGHT now, not the dark. :)

[Mosaicmind]

I have no idea what we are. DH's father was and E-Free church pastor for over 20 years, and we now attend an Evangelical Covenant church because there isn't and E-Free church around close.

 

I guess I am lost. :confused:

[Staci in MO]

Within the last 4 years, I have studied and come to an understanding of what Calvinism is, what Reformed means, and while I am Calvinist in my soteriological beliefs, I've not taken on all the trappings of the reformed faith. Our church practices credobaptism, teaches dispensational eschatology, and is part of the Evangelical Free Church.

 

That's me, too. Although I would probably not fit in completely, as I refer to myself as a 4.5 point Calvinist. :) And our church is not part of the EFCA, it's non-denominational.

[tinag]

Calvanist but not Reformed. Think John MacArthur rather than R.C. Sproul.

 

This is me. Although, I do agree a lot with Sproul's teachings.

[Karenciavo]

I am a reformed 5 pt Calvinist young earth literal 6 day Bible believing born again Christian. There's nothing I like better than listening to a good Scottish preacher, Eric Alexander and Sinclair Ferguson being my favorites.

 

I remember one time I was at a women's Bible study in a non-denominational church, we were working through Romans. During a discussion on election (I was new to the group and listening not talking) a woman starts laughing and says, "Well, let's not become Calvinists here." :lol:

[readwithem]

OK, I can't give you rep apparently, but that is HYSTERICAL!!!!

 

Raising my hand - been reformed for about. . .hmm. . . . .8 years, I'd say?

 

We attend the PCA "Mothership"!

 

Would that be Briarworld? :) We just moved to Dallas and are still circling the airport, trying to decide where to land... but I do believe we'll be at the largest PCA church. Never would have dreamed it.

[Karenciavo]

You must go read this: http://purgatorio1.com/?p=128

 

 

:lol: Funny. #3 especially. We used Gospel Light for VBS this year and one of the songs the kids had to sing was "Choose Jesus", there were a few people looking :001_huh: about that one.

[Remudamom]

I am a reformed 5 pt Calvinist young earth literal 6 day Bible believing born again Christian. There's nothing I like better than listening to a good Scottish preacher, Eric Alexander and Sinclair Ferguson being my favorites.

 

I remember one time I was at a women's Bible study in a non-denominational church, we were working through Romans. During a discussion on election (I was new to the group and listening not talking) a woman starts laughing and says, "Well, let's not become Calvinists here." :lol:

 

 

:lol:

[Confuzzled]

I'm in a PCA church. We must have used the same VBS materials, Karen! We used Sonworld and one of the daily slogans and one of the songs was "Choose Jesus." Somebody took a marker and changed all the posters and signs to read, "Follow Jesus." :D

[~Tara~]

Yes, I'm talking reformed/Calvinistic?

 

We've been on the reformed road for 15 years. You know, newly reformed Christians need to be locked in a cage for the first two years, to avoid offending everyone else. I'm talking rabid reformed. Takes a while to calm down.

 

I thought the Calvinists were required more like 7? :p

 

Yeah, we're on that reformed side. Have been pretty well all along. Starting more in just being 'Calvinistic' then have since moved to 'reformed'.

[hsmamainva]

Born and raised in the Presbyterian church --- still a firm Calvinist

 

For several years, I attended the PCRT conference on Reformed Theology in Philadelphia with RC Sproul and Alastair Begg and Michael Horton.

 

Proud reader of the Credenda Agenda.

 

I used to be in the Christian Fellowship / Debate chatroom on a server called Prodigy years ago...I had several good friends (Borg and Credenda .. I was GraceAlone) and we were often in the center of massive predestination debates .... Hmmmm..... I wonder how they knew we were reformed???? :rolleyes:

 

Ahhhh...I have since matured.

 

Sometimes I miss having a good ol' religious debate on whether or not we have free will :D

[Erica in PA]

I don't understand... if you believe there is no element at all of choice, what do you say when sharing the gospel? Is there never a point when you would encourage a person to choose to repent and follow God? (Even when knowing that it is God who enables the person to make that choice.)

 

I guess some of you are further on the Calvinist scale that I am, because it seems strange to me to be bothered by the mere word "choose." I did choose to follow God, but it is God who gave me the ability to do so. I would not have been able to make that choice without Him. It was His work, not mine. Am I missing something?

 

Erica

[Remudamom]

I don't understand... if you believe there is no element at all of choice, what do you say when sharing the gospel? Is there never a point when you would encourage a person to choose to repent and follow God? (Even when knowing that it is God who enables the person to make that choice.)

 

I guess some of you are further on the Calvinist scale that I am, because it seems strange to me to be bothered by the mere word "choose." I did choose to follow God, but it is God who gave me the ability to do so. I would not have been able to make that choice without Him. It was His work, not mine. Am I missing something?

 

Erica

 

Well, I know a lot of folks (bless their little Arminian hearts) that hold to the idea that they choose God every day. And they'd say it's their choice.

They aren't chosen, they chose. And if they do say they are chosen, they fudge around the P word, saying that God knew that they would choose them, so he gave them the ability to do so.

[hsmamainva]

Your position is right, Erica!

 

A person can only choose when God enables him or her *to* choose. Which logically means that there are others whom God has not chosen (that's where the debate becomes sticky).

 

BUT we're to share the Gospel with ALL because no person can know whom God has chosen (and that person merely hasn't heard the Word from others).

 

God elects and chooses ... we are merely the 'sharers of the message'.

 

Another way to explain free will and election is .. if God could choose you, and you could not accept -- or God could not choose you and you could accept Him -- that would make your will greater than God's will and that would be impossible -- with Him being God and all that. :)

 

Hope this helps a little!!

[ThelmaLou]

Why do you assume that a lot of non-Calvinists don't know or understand what they believe?

 

I'm not the original poster of that comment, but I went to a Bible church for 13 years with my husband and kids. There was quite a mix when it came to Calivinsts/Arminians. During the "open meeting" (this was a Plymouth Brethren church) many of the men would get up to lead worship and say a few words before the passing of the elements of the Lord's Supper. It was amazing how, for example, a Calvinist could get up and say a few words and the majority of people would "amen" him. Then an Arminian would get up and basically contradict him (purposely, but graciously...not trying to draw too much attention to the matter. And not actually saying "I disagree with you.") Once again, "amens" and head-nodding from the majority of people. This went on all the time. You could see a small handful of folks from both sides squirming in their seats, but for the most part, the whole congregation didn't even see the distinction between what these guys were saying.

 

For the record, I was brought up in a loosely Plymouth Brethren Bible Church. (Never heard the actual words "Plymouth Brethren" until I was an adult, though.) I lived in the DFW metroplex. The teaching elder, as well as most of the other elders, youth leaders, etc...were all DTS graduates. While there are some Calvinist influences there, by and large its leanings are Arminian. When I first heard the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, they all sounded to me like what I *thought* I had grown up believing. In other words, I was one of those people who just didn't see the distinction. I quickly learned from my parents and the leadership at my church that there was most definitely a distinction. And my interests in Calvinism were not met with open arms.

 

My childhood church is listed among a group of churches called "Free Grace" churches. It's funny, because I do, indeed, believe in free grace, unmerited favor, etc...but Free Grace, as used by Free Grace churches, means something completely different. For anyone who already knows about such things, Zane Hodges is in the Free Grace camp.

 

My husband and I just recently decided to join a local Reformed Baptist Church. I don't think they're officially part of the Founder's Movement. It's my first time to belong to anything other than a bible church. But they're in line with the beliefs I've had since my college days.

 

Let me make one point. While I do believe there are significant differences between Calvinism and Arminianism (most folks who understand these differences would wholeheartedly agree that they are quite different) I believe the Lord used many...many...many godly Arminian folks in a very special way in my life. Same goes for my husband. I believe there are godly people on both sides. Some of my best friends are Arminians. We just happen to go to different churches. I do believe that there are significant doctrinal differences, though.

[Kathleen in VA]

I don't understand... if you believe there is no element at all of choice, what do you say when sharing the gospel? Is there never a point when you would encourage a person to choose to repent and follow God? (Even when knowing that it is God who enables the person to make that choice.)

 

I guess some of you are further on the Calvinist scale that I am, because it seems strange to me to be bothered by the mere word "choose." I did choose to follow God, but it is God who gave me the ability to do so. I would not have been able to make that choice without Him. It was His work, not mine. Am I missing something?

 

Erica

 

I think this addresses the age old mystery of the sovereignty of God and man's responsibility. This is where a lot people get tripped up. The Christian's responsibility is to preach God's word - to present the gospel to everyone. Each person then has to decide what to do with that information - to accept it or reject it. We would all most certainly reject it if were not for the Holy Spirit opening our eyes to the truth of the gospel. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts people of their lost state and need for a Savior and yet, there is a choice involved. Therein lies the mystery. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." Again, we are to tell others of Christ and those who are truly His will hear His voice and follow Him. So it comes down to God drawing us, enabling us to choose Him - otherwise we would not, we could not.

 

Anyone else want to take a stab at it? This is the best I can do.

[Karenciavo]

I'm in a PCA church. We must have used the same VBS materials, Karen! We used Sonworld and one of the daily slogans and one of the songs was "Choose Jesus." Somebody took a marker and changed all the posters and signs to read, "Follow Jesus." :D

 

Classic! We're PCA too. What ever happened to Great Commission VBS I wonder :confused:

[Remudamom]

I don't understand... if you believe there is no element at all of choice, what do you say when sharing the gospel? Is there never a point when you would encourage a person to choose to repent and follow God? (Even when knowing that it is God who enables the person to make that choice.)

 

 

Erica

 

 

What do we say? What any Christian says. We don't know who God has chosen, and we don't know how he has ordained for them to hear the Word, that's not our problem. But we have been given the task of telling, so we tell. There is always the time to encourage repentence. Always.

[Kimber]

Reformed here too. I grew up Baptist and then Charismatic. I must say that for me, Reformed theology has given me greater appreciation for God's goodness and holiness.

 

I think that I am more grateful as a Christian than I was before.

 

But regardless of what my church or any church teaches, I believe that I am personally responsible for my own beliefs, my own faith, and my own walk with the Lord.

[Remudamom]

Reformed here too. I grew up Baptist and then Charismatic. I must say that for me, Reformed theology has given me greater appreciation for God's goodness and holiness.

 

I think that I am more grateful as a Christian than I was before.

 

But regardless of what my church or any church teaches, I believe that I am personally responsible for my own beliefs, my own faith, and my own walk with the Lord.

 

Yes! You are responsible, and therein lies another arguement. Hyper Calvinists (is that the proper term?) have the mindset that "I'm saved and can do whatever I want." My bil is one of these. This, of course, is bull hockey.

 

Others complain "If God ordains all my steps, how can I be blamed for anything?"

 

You are responsible. Life is ordained and you are responsible for yours.

[Robin in Tx]

Just to clarify, not everyone who fails to embrace Calvin's five points 100% is by default an Arminian. Those two argued, but it's not like their theologies are the only two out there.

 

Other thoughts (not in response to your post, I'm just saying this here) -

 

While there is scriptural support for election, there is also scriptural support for free will. There is an element of mystery that none of us will comprehend this side of heaven. No matter which you believe, you have to deal with problematic scripture. The only thing I don't like about the division over this issue is when one camp starts accusing the other camp of not being saved. I laughed hard at the funny link in this thread, but even that dipped it's toe into the "we're going to heaven and you're going to hell" arrogance that crops up over this issue. Who am I to judge someone else's salvation? That seems harmful to body of Christ (enemy keeping us divided).

 

Okay, got that off my chest... :)

[Remudamom]

Just to clarify, not everyone who fails to embrace Calvin's five points 100% is by default an Arminian. Those two argued, but it's not like their theologies are the only two out there.

 

Other thoughts (not in response to your post, I'm just saying this here) -

 

While there is scriptural support for election, there is also scriptural support for free will. There is an element of mystery that none of us will comprehend this side of heaven. No matter which you believe, you have to deal with problematic scripture. The only thing I don't like about the division over this issue is when one camp starts accusing the other camp of not being saved. I laughed hard at the funny link in this thread, but even that dipped it's toe into the "we're going to heaven and you're going to hell" arrogance that crops up over this issue. Who am I to judge someone else's salvation? That seems harmful to body of Christ (enemy keeping us divided).

 

Okay, got that off my chest... :)

 

 

Oh yeah, it's a dangerous thing to march around announcing your "who's going where" opinion. Judge not.

[CAMom]

Just to clarify, not everyone who fails to embrace Calvin's five points 100% is by default an Arminian. Those two argued, but it's not like their theologies are the only two out there.

 

Other thoughts (not in response to your post, I'm just saying this here) -

 

While there is scriptural support for election, there is also scriptural support for free will. There is an element of mystery that none of us will comprehend this side of heaven. No matter which you believe, you have to deal with problematic scripture. The only thing I don't like about the division over this issue is when one camp starts accusing the other camp of not being saved. I laughed hard at the funny link in this thread, but even that dipped it's toe into the "we're going to heaven and you're going to hell" arrogance that crops up over this issue. Who am I to judge someone else's salvation? That seems harmful to body of Christ (enemy keeping us divided).

 

Okay, got that off my chest... :)

 

Didn't know if you meant that Calvin and Arminius actually argued with each other? I believe that Arminius was only 4 or 5 when Calvin died. If memory serves, the 5 pts. were also developed after Calvin's death.

 

As a Reformed believer, I would never even think to judge another's heart and deem them going to hell. I'm well aware of the arrogance on both sides. That doesn't mean that we quit dicussing it. It means that we all strive to be humble.

[Paula in MS]

It is very interesting reading the discussions about election and the great commission. Everyone that I know who attends reformed churches in our area believe in election and do not practice the great commission. I have been told by more than one, "What's the point; God chooses." I was raised baptist but have attended non-denominational churches for years. The one thing that would not enable me to attend reformed churches was this one point. The election issue doesn't bother me as much because I have always believed that the choosing is mutual--God chooses you and you choose to follow. (Many people explain this different ways, even within the reformed community.) But I could never understand it when people would share their faith with their children but not with strangers because "God chooses" and they don't have any responsibility to point the way.

 

I am surprised to hear that some of you take a different view. Very interesting.

 

Paula

[PineFarmMom]

Just to clarify, not everyone who fails to embrace Calvin's five points 100% is by default an Arminian. Those two argued, but it's not like their theologies are the only two out there.

 

Other thoughts (not in response to your post, I'm just saying this here) -

 

While there is scriptural support for election, there is also scriptural support for free will. There is an element of mystery that none of us will comprehend this side of heaven. No matter which you believe, you have to deal with problematic scripture. The only thing I don't like about the division over this issue is when one camp starts accusing the other camp of not being saved. I laughed hard at the funny link in this thread, but even that dipped it's toe into the "we're going to heaven and you're going to hell" arrogance that crops up over this issue. Who am I to judge someone else's salvation? That seems harmful to body of Christ (enemy keeping us divided).

 

Okay, got that off my chest... :)

 

I agree!!!! The more I know Christ, the less I'm able to label myself as falling in line completely with any one man-made set. I've looked at the 5 points and just don't agree with them all, though I do agree mostly. I have finally come to the conclusion that I think Corrie ten Boom came to, and that is that I am willing to look past denominational lines to see the TRUE followers of Christ, those who have surrendered themselves to God. I think towards the end of her life she chose to speak in churches of different denominations because she could see their devotion to Christ and saw them as all part of the Body!! I grew up Baptist, and because of studying the Bible more deeply as an adult, I've tossed out some of what I learned from my Baptist upbringing, but NOT ALL...I certainly believe much in the evangelical end of that foundation and have a very strong and firm missions mindset.

 

I've read much of John Piper & R.C. Sproul and see eye to eye with them on many points, though not all. I just can't swallow the whole election thing in the way many do. I've given GOD permission to clear me up on that whole issue and I'm open, but frankly, He hasn't done that yet. lol At this point, though, I have chosen not to argue the point because it is one of those "endless controversies" I'm thinking the Bible is speaking of. I don't believe for a second that I can be wrong in choosing to see people who believe differently denominationally (not speaking of the foundation of the gospel of Christ) as brothers and sisters in Christ who just happen to have a different viewpoint on scripture than I.

 

T

[Kim in Appalachia]

we attend an OPC church. We've been "reformed" in our beliefs for 16 years but didn't realize it. :001_smile:

 

After our last move our search for a church made us realize how set we were on certain "doctrines". We were able to refine our understanding on some key things and found ourselves in an OPC church.

[Robin in Tx]

Didn't know if you meant that Calvin and Arminius actually argued with each other? I believe that Arminius was only 4 or 5 when Calvin died. If memory serves, the 5 pts. were also developed after Calvin's death.

 

As a Reformed believer, I would never even think to judge another's heart and deem them going to hell. I'm well aware of the arrogance on both sides. That doesn't mean that we quit dicussing it. It means that we all strive to be humble.

 

Yeah, that wasn't very clear, was it? :) If memory serves me (and I might be wrong), Arminius juxtaposed his views directly against the Calvinists, so when people think, "what is the antithesis of Calvinism" they automatically think "Arminianism" and that's not exactly true. They rival, but there other rivals as well. There are other beliefs/mixes within the protestant tradition, and of course let's not forget the catholics and the orthodox.

 

An example of what I'm talking about is the Baptist church that I grew up in taught perseverence of the saints, and you never, ever saw someone walking the aisle over and over again to make sure they were saved. The church taught free will *and* that you couldn't lose your salvation. That's a bit of a blend, but I have found that the key points of most churches' doctrinal statements deal with issues outside the five points of tulip.