Gaslighting

[Grover]

Can someone talk ot me some more about this?  My mother fits all the labels for NPD, I'm the scapegoat and over the years I've come to accept that / limit interactions and mostly protect myself although every now and then she manages to get through and it still hurts. 

 

Anyway... she got me again, and got me good, calling me for a liar in front of my family, her family and my husband's family at my daughter's birthday yesterday.  It was a situation where I made a statement about something (inconsequential) from childhood related to a topic and she cried me down and said that thing was untrue, never happened, why would I say that it was true, I was lying again, it could never have been like that, etc (this wasn't a bad thing - it was just something I recalled about an extended family member's pet).  I brushed it off at the time but she kept pushing it and laying it on until we (my in-laws are aware of the situation and are a wonderful support) managed to wrest the conversation from her. 

 

I know I should just let it go, brush it off as another of her stupid, pointless attacks, BUT... in this case it would be extremely easy to pop along to that family member and confirm my memory (honestly, just because I feel a bit taken aback at the vitriol behind the attack - I assume it was just because I haven't let her 'get me" lately, and I recently stood up to her over something, but I also just want to clear the air in my own mind - I'm pretty sure what I remember is true, but maybe it isn't, y'know?)  Is there any point, or am I just going to get myself more tied up in knots?

 

BTW - please don't tell me I have to cut her loose entirely - I'd dearly love to, and I have limited interaction as much as possible, but that would also mean never seeing my father and I don't want to lose him too (or leave him alone to her version of events, if truth be told.  One of my dearest hopes is that he will outlive her so that I can then try to rebuild a proper relationship with him, away from her poison - I don't want to close that door). 

 

I'm feeling a little raw just now, so please be gentle. 

 

 

[umsami]

The term comes from the classic film "Gaslight".  Basically, the person tries to make you think that you're going crazy.

 

It's very common among NPD folks.  Honestly, my guess is that a lot of people at the party probably already realize that your Mom does this. So I don't think you need to worry about what they think about you. 

 

Sure, ask the family member…if only to make yourself feel better.  :)   And y'know what? Even if you were wrong, it doesn't lessen all the times she has done this to you. 

 

 

[Grover]

  Honestly, my guess is that a lot of people at the party probably already realize that your Mom does this. So I don't think you need to worry about what they think about you. 

 

 

 

This is something that I have struggled with for SO long.  My dad - he sticks by her, although he has once or twice made comments (when she's not around)  that make me at least hope that he knows what she's doing.  I thought it was true for so long - I *was* the bad person. He has commented recently that he thinks it's my faut though, so I don't know.   My sister is the golden child - we don't really have a relationship so I have no idea what she thinks.  My inlaws know.  Everyone in my side of the family is to scared to say anything because then it's their turn for the attack - an aunty told me this when I was in my late teens - it's easier to let me bear the brunt and keep themselves safe I think.  So I always feel alone.  I am so lucky that my husband and his family are so understanding... I want to adopt his parents :-)

[nmoira]

MIL used to do this to DH all the time before he severed contact (for unrelated reasons). The worst was when he was relating a particularly good spanking he'd received for playing too rough with his little brother. She not only insisted she had NEVER spanked him, but for weeks afterward sent him links about False Memory Syndrome and suggested he get counselling over his "misplaced anger" towards her. 

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't think all people like this do it purposely. I think some of them genuinely remember events the way they want to remember them.

[Grover]

I don't think all people like this do it purposely. I think some of them genuinely remember events the way they want to remember them.

 

I do get this - but this was so totally inconsequential - it was a funny story type of thing, it didn't involve her (or me for that matter).  So why go on and on about me lying when it really didn't matter if she didn't remember it that way / I had it wrong.  I think that's what I'm struggling with a little today - she's reinvented history constantly over important things / things involving her to put herself in a better light, etc, but this was just such a stupid little thing.  I guess it was a way to get at me though, as I avoid all conversation with her in general now - it was something she could take over and state was incorrect to the room at large without me needing to be engaging with her directly. Ugh, I really shoule just lt it go, but the witch has got to me again.  I don't like this relationship at all :-(

[Lang Syne Boardie]

MIL used to do this to DH all the time before he severed contact (for unrelated reasons). The worse was when he was relating a particularly good spanking he'd received for playing too rough with his little brother. She not only insisted she had NEVER spanked him, but for weeks afterward sent him links about False Memory Syndrome and suggested he get counselling over his "misplaced anger" towards her. 

That is the level at which my MIL plays this game. I keep a thousand mile buffer between us at all times.

[Seasider]

You say you recently stood up to her over another matter. IME, this means she was just waiting for the next opportunity for payback (sad but true for this personality type). NPD folks never forget, they just remember things their own special way.

Sorry you have to deal with this, Grover. What a blessing to have family members that correctly read the situation and in laws that try to even protect you from it.

When I think of true gaslighting, though, I think of it as more insidious and one-on-one or behind the target's back. So in this instance, it seems more of an attempt to payback/discredit you rather than "make you think *you're* the crazy one." A subtle difference, but the first is just the nature of the beast and the second is intentionally evil, kwim?

[Mrs Mungo]

I do get this - but this was so totally inconsequential - it was a funny story type of thing, it didn't involve her (or me for that matter). So why go on and on about me lying when it really didn't matter if she didn't remember it that way / I had it wrong. I think that's what I'm struggling with a little today - she's reinvented history constantly over important things / things involving her to put herself in a better light, etc, but this was just such a stupid little thing. I guess it was a way to get at me though, as I avoid all conversation with her in general now - it was something she could take over and state was incorrect to the room at large without me needing to be engaging with her directly. Ugh, I really shoule just lt it go, but the witch has got to me again. I don't like this relationship at all :-(

She is attempting to prove something to you. There is no beating these people by playing their game. Believe me, I know. At least the people around you understand.

[Alicia64]

You say you recently stood up to her over another matter. IME, this means she was just waiting for the next opportunity for payback (sad but true for this personality type). NPD folks never forget, they just remember things their own special way.

Sorry you have to deal with this, Grover. What a blessing to have family members that correctly read the situation and in laws that try to even protect you from it.

When I think of true gaslighting, though, I think of it as more insidious and one-on-one or behind the target's back. So in this instance, it seems more of an attempt to payback/discredit you rather than "make you think *you're* the crazy one." A subtle difference, but the first is just the nature of the beast and the second is intentionally evil, kwim?

 

I agree with Seasider that she was doing a payback. I don't ever quibble over the meaning of "gaslighting." It's very easy to feel nuts around these people. And I was told by both NPD parents how bad, crazy etc. I was that I went into the world thinking that about myself.

 

Yes, I finally disconnected two years ago. They started attacking one of my sons and I flipped. For so long I just had thought that I was "the problem." Then they started attacking my sister's oldest -- and then my son!! I kept telling my sister what was happening and -- being the golden child -- she just brushed it off. But when they went after my son that's when we completely stopped seeing them.

 

You have my full compassion. I know how easy it is to stay because of someone like your dad. And I respect that, but I'm not wild that he hasn't stood up to this woman. After all, his wife is attacking his daughter. What's with that?! And he's known her for years. He'll believe her poison?

 

These NPD people only flourish when other adults allow it. They often have partners who let it all happen. The minute everybody shuts them down, the healing can begin.

 

Take awesome care of yourself -- this is really tough stuff you're dealing with.

 

A million hugs,

 

Alley

[Lara in Colo]

My mother is a borderline personality and she doesn't really gaslight (I think gaslighting is intentially trying to make you feel crazy)

 

Borderlines make what I call a "bubble world" for themselves.  You never know what the world is-- Good Mother, Good Employee, "Good Wife, Good Person--- whatever they feel they should be or want to be.  So when my mother wanted the "good mother" label -- I got lots of attention paid to my grades and she would join groups at my school,  When she was trying to be a better person, I was ignored so that she could go back to college or do more church stuff--

 

The problem with these bubble worlds is you never know what they are and what you do to "pop" them.  You play a BIG role in her bubble world -- you just don't know what the part is--- or even the plot.

 

  If she is trying for "good mother" and you bring home a bad grade or get into a scuffle at school, you are "popping" the bubble  She cannot be a good mother if you aren't a good child.  or Perhaps a good mother would get you counseling for drugs since your grades are dropping or perhaps would get you a tutor, or ground you---

Her reactions are based on her view of herself and what that character should do.  You cannot know what will pop the bubble.

 

I recently got into a lot of trouble with my mother because I inferred that she was old (she is 71) and has said many times that she doesn't have many years left, but that was fine when she was trying justify something she wanted to do, but when I said it while she was feeling good about herself and planning to start a new venture--- "POP"

 

So her memories are skewed by her past and current bubble.   

 

So-- for instance if she thought a good mother (GM) got to know her teen better and stayed up late at night talking to you and taking you shopping -- but the result was that your grades fell since you couldn't get your homework done (from all the late night talks)  YOU HAVE POPPED THE BUBBLE   GM's have children with good grades.   But this is YOUR fault-- she will not remember the late nights or all the times you said you needed her to leave so you could study-- she will just remember all the effort she put into the relationship and how you betrayed her "friendship" by not performing well (eventhough you hate shopping and the late night talked were crap you didn't really want -- you just did it to make her feel good)  Now she is mad and she will be offended and take the shopping away and "punish" you in other ways.  Because a GM would never have been the CAUSE of the bad grades. 

 

Move forward 10 years and you remember it the way it was-- she remembers it differently (because of the old bubble) but now she has a NEW bubble.  One where she is needing to be a GM again ---  NOW a GM is one that helps with homework and she sees all those late nights as her trying to get you to do your homework and her taking you to the mall was for getting supplies for a school project (which you may have insisted she do once -- and back then she was mad at you for spoiling the outing) but now ALL the trips were for school purposes.  and you still betrayed her by getting bad grades. 

 

This is how memory "changes" work in my life with my mother.  I spent years thinking I was crazy-- she didn't try to make me feel crazy-- she really remembers stuff differently-- 

 

I don't know if this helps or not......

 

[Grover]

actually, it does help... it's kind of good to know the "reason" behind it (even if the reason is crazy).  My mother definitely does have her bubbles, although I'd say she tends to have many that run concurrently - different faces for different groups of people.  When we were younger and were with her we were in and out of those different worlds and expected to keep up with the changes and act as supporting characters in her roles.  grrr.. why do I let this woman get to me.   Oh yeah.. she's my mother, she's meant to love me and I'm meant to love her.  Doesn't mean I have to like her though, right?

 

Just got an email from my sister - mother has just decided she is taking sister and her family away for Easter.  My husnband and I usually go away for Easter with his family - tradition from before we were married - and she always complains about htat so this year we decided to stay home so she could have her "turn" with the grand kids.  Yes, she knows we're staying home (although I guarantee you she tells me she didn't know).   It just hurts sometimes.

[Catwoman]

Go ahead and ask, just for your own peace of mind.

But when it turns out you were right (and it probably will,) make sure you're able to resist the urge to throw it back in your mom's face the next time she starts in on you.

[trulycrabby]

I would let it go, because even if you pursue the subject and correct her memory, she will just choose another time and place to get revenge. The only way you can "win" with NPD or NPD is to not engage at all. My sister shows symptoms of both borderline personality disorder and NPD, yes twice the fun in one person, lol. At this very moment, I am reading and posting here on the forum to avoid engaging with her, so I know how difficult this can be. :grouphug:

[Catwoman]

I would let it go, because even if you pursue the subject and correct her memory, she will just choose another time and place to get revenge. The only way you can "win" with NPD or NPD is to not engage at all. My sister shows symptoms of both borderline personality disorder and NPD, yes twice the fun in one person, lol. At this very moment, I am reading and posting here on the forum to avoid engaging with her, so I know how difficult this can be. :grouphug:

I wanted to like this post, but I ran out of likes for the day. AGAIN. :glare:

My thought was that if Grover really wants to know for sure that she was right, she should go ahead and ask the person who knows for sure... but no matter what the answer turned out to be, she should keep it to herself, for the exact reasons you mentioned.

A thousand people could back up Grover's recollection of what happened, and there could be direct video evidence and signed, notarized depositions to support her... and her mom would still say that Grover was wrong, and she would be sure to add that the whole thing was clearly a conspiracy to hurt her and that Grover was behind the whole sordid situation.

There's no winning with a narcissist.

[OnTheBrink]

My mother is like that, my exMIL is like that and my exH is like that. Believe me, I know how you feel. ((HUG))

[bolt.]

I also just want to clear the air in my own mind - I'm pretty sure what I remember is true, but maybe it isn't, y'know?)  Is there any point, or am I just going to get myself more tied up in knots?

In my opinion, there isn't any point -- not because you couldn't clear this up with "the facts" if you wanted to, but because "the facts" are really, really, not the point. The point is that two adults remembered something differently, and one of those people became a bully about it, denying the privilege of voice and opinion to the other person.

 

In relationships between equals, the privilege of having a voice and an opinion belongs to both people -- even the one of them that is in error, if the situation is, like yours, something that actually has "facts" (unlike many situations).

 

It was wrong for her to treat you like that, if you were right... you seem to get that.

 

Try to also absorb this message: it was wrong for her to treat you like that even if you were incorrect.

 

Therefore fact-checking to see who was in the wrong is pointless. She is in the wrong either way.

 

So why go on and on about me lying when it really didn't matter if she didn't remember it that way / I had it wrong.

Because it's all about power and control.

 

(Abuse is the successful use of *any* technique that results in one person establishing effective levels control over the life of another person. A lot of people get mixed up over that: abuse isn't about people being particularly angry, mean and nasty to one another -- it's about power. It's about 'whatever it takes' to assert and maintain a power difference in a relationship.)

 

It became a battle of the wills and she was compulsively motivated to "win" -- if she didn't win, you would "wrongly" (in her eyes) move out of your "place" and start becoming someone capable of independence, not yielding to her power. In this case her 'power' was asserted in an idea like, "When me and a lesser person both have a memory, clearly my memory is accurate and hers is not, because I am greater and she is lesser." When you challenge that, you challenge her status as "greater person"... you assert, "Actually, we are both regular people with regular vague memories." -- and she can't handle the idea of agreeing to that, so she reacts to defend her self-assigned role, status, power and control.

 

The good news is, that you don't need to fight this fight. You can carry on just believing you are both regular people with no particular greater-lesser relationship. It will constantly drive her nuts, and she will try to shove at it -- but unless she convinces *you* that you are lesser and should act like it, she will never "win". You can "win" by total granite-passivity. Yay!

[gardenmom5]

:grouphug:  btdt.  just remember, there is no pleasing these people.  other's either realize she is off her rocker or buy into the crazy.  

[bolt.]

Note to readers:

 

What the OP is experiencing is an element of an abusive relationship, and it's important to process it as she describes it -- but it doesn't *technically* fit the label of gas-lighting, just in case you are out there just learning good stuff and therefore trying to learn what that term 'gas-lighting' actually means... it isn't this.

[Grover]

A thousand people could back up Grover's recollection of what happened, and there could be direct video evidence and signed, notarized depositions to support her... and her mom would still say that Grover was wrong, and she would be sure to add that the whole thing was clearly a conspiracy to hurt her and that Grover was behind the whole sordid situation.

There's no winning with a narcissist.

 

this is so very true.  She'd just flatly deny ever saying I was wrong in the first place - it's happened many times before. 

 

Thank you to everyone who has replied.  I am feeling somewhat better now, and I do know I should just let it go.  I wish I could just wak away from this. 

[LMD]

*hugs* grover. I have a mother like this too... We haven't seen her in over a year after her last outburst. It is so tough... My in laws are also fantastic. Take care of yourself.

[gardenmom5]

This is something that I have struggled with for SO long.  My dad - he sticks by her, although he has once or twice made comments (when she's not around)  that make me at least hope that he knows what she's doing. 

your dad is likely getting his own version where you don't see.  My grandmother never allowed my grandfather to speak.  If he opened his mouth -she'd start talking over him and he'd turn away.   the only time I truly saw him happy was when he was somewhere she wasn't.  my mother said she treated him even worse in the few years before he died, but the only one who saw was my mother - because she was getting it too.

 

I do get this - but this was so totally inconsequential - it was a funny story type of thing, it didn't involve her (or me for that matter).  So why go on and on about me lying when it really didn't matter if she didn't remember it that way / I had it wrong.  I think that's what I'm struggling with a little today - she's reinvented history constantly over important things / things involving her to put herself in a better light, etc, but this was just such a stupid little thing. 

 

it was payback.  you said you recently stood up to her.  that's an unforgiveable action to a narcissist as it is threatening her sense of power.   that's also why she chose to do it in front of other people, and not just the two of you.

You say you recently stood up to her over another matter. IME, this means she was just waiting for the next opportunity for payback (sad but true for this personality type). NPD folks never forget, they just remember things their own special way.

 

 

they're such "special" little snowflakes.  (*flake* being the operative word)

I would let it go, because even if you pursue the subject and correct her memory, she will just choose another time and place to get revenge. The only way you can "win" with NPD or NPD is to not engage at all. My sister shows symptoms of both borderline personality disorder and NPD, yes twice the fun in one person, lol. At this very moment, I am reading and posting here on the forum to avoid engaging with her, so I know how difficult this can be. :grouphug:

the other advantage of this is: refusing to play the mind games pisses them off, but there is only so much they can do.  dh used to be "excruciatingly" cheerful and polite to my grandmother.  she couldn't stand to be in the same room as him. 

 

Note to readers:

 

What the OP is experiencing is an element of an abusive relationship, and it's important to process it as she describes it -- but it doesn't *technically* fit the label of gas-lighting, just in case you are out there just learning good stuff and therefore trying to learn what that term 'gas-lighting' actually means... it isn't this.

 

re: gaslight. for those who haven't seen it, in the movie, charles boyer was NOT trying to make ingrid bergman crazy.  he was looking for something of value in the attic.  that was why he married her - the "thing" in the attic.  he was constantly searching, she'd hear the footsteps and see the lights dim because he'd turned on the gaslights in the attic causing all the other lights in the house to dim.  when she'd mention it to him, *then* he'd say she was imagining things - because he didn't want her to know he was searching the attic. so, she thought she was imagining things.  making her crazy was a byproduct of his scheming.

 

one of the most gratifying days of my life was realizing what my grandmother was - and that I was NOT crazy. (even though the rest of my family was still under her thumb and wouldn't cross her to save their lives.  my mother wanted to, but she was afraid.)

[lavender's green]

 

 

re: gaslight. for those who haven't seen it, in the movie, charles boyer was NOT trying to make ingrid bergman crazy.  he was looking for something of value in the attic.  that was why he married her - the "thing" in the attic.  he was constantly searching, she'd hear the footsteps and see the lights dim because he'd turned on the gaslights in the attic causing all the other lights in the house to dim.  when she'd mention it to him, *then* he'd say she was imagining things - because he didn't want her to know he was searching the attic. so, she thought she was imagining things.  making her crazy was a byproduct of his scheming.

 

 

 

He put more thought into it than that.  He hired a deaf servant and a floozie servant (who would lie for him) on purpose, and also create jealousy issues.  He made her think she'd lost a valuable item, and then brought it out again months later to make her have a breakdown in public.  He kept her home most of the time so that people would think she was a crazy recluse.  He wanted her in the asylum so he could search freely, and he put a ton of planning into it beforehand.  He could have just sent her on a trip by herself so that he could search freely - she'd been living abroad on her own before they met, so it's not like she'd feel uprooted by it.  I really don't think driving her crazy was just a byproduct of the scheming.  I think he chose that particular method of getting her away because he was just that diabolical.
 

[gardenmom5]

He put more thought into it than that.  He hired a deaf servant and a floozie servant (who would lie for him) on purpose, and also create jealousy issues.  He made her think she'd lost a valuable item, and then brought it out again months later to make her have a breakdown in public.  He kept her home most of the time so that people would think she was a crazy recluse.  He wanted her in the asylum so he could search freely, and he put a ton of planning into it beforehand.  He could have just sent her on a trip by herself so that he could search freely - she'd been living abroad on her own before they met, so it's not like she'd feel uprooted by it.  I really don't think driving her crazy was just a byproduct of the scheming.  I think he chose that particular method of getting her away because he was just that diabolical.
 

 

well - it's been years since I've seen it.

[umsami]

It's been a long time since I saw the movie, but I do need to recommend it.  It is fabulous.  No idea if it would be triggering, though…although I don't think so.

 

Angela Lansbury is in it as a maid too.  If you only knew her in "Murder She Wrote" or as Mrs. Potts' voice, it's a nice surprise. :)

[Mrs Mungo]

It's been a long time since I saw the movie, but I do need to recommend it. It is fabulous. No idea if it would be triggering, though…although I don't think so.

Angela Lansbury is in it as a maid too. If you only knew her in "Murder She Wrote" or as Mrs. Potts' voice, it's a nice surprise. :)

Woah, woah, woah, what!? There are people who don't know her other work? From National Velvet to Picture of Dorian Gray to the Court Jester to The Manchurian Candidate to Pirates of Penzance and loads more?! She has been nominated for Oscars multiple times!

[Garga]

re: movie Gaslight: Oh, he was most assuredly purposely driving her crazy.

OP, I have a tiny inkling of what this is like for you. I just got back from dinner with the in-laws where I finally had to just sit there in silence. Absolutely everything I said, no matter how benign, was "wrong" or caused irritated looks to be tossed my way. From the most inane conversational topics like"how is your food" to "I hear a funny noise in the back of the car" everything I said was apparently insufferable.

Ugh.

When I get my MIL alone, she's really not bad. It's when FIL and my husband or the kids or her friend are there that she just gets weird. I don't know what it is.

At the end of the meal, I ended up whispering too fiercely to my husband to make sure to sneakily leave a good tip (because if we openly leave a tip she never, ever approves of the amount and we have a 10 minute conversation about our bad tipping abilities) he got snippy with me because I was being too "intense." He's right. By the end of the dinner it was all I could do not to run screaming from the restaurant. But, oh it made me feel rotten to have him say, "Why are you talking like that to me? You're scowling at me. Stop it!" I felt like a heel.

Ok--this post was all about me. Sorry. I signed into to WTM to start a new post to vent, but instead of starting my own thread, I am here venting on yours.

All this to say that I feel so so so so so sorry for you. I really do. I'm so sad you have to deal with such a high level of disfunction and had to deal with it as a child as well. I have a tiny inkling of how awful it must have been.

[FaithManor]

Disengaging really is the only way and limiting all visits to two hours or less and spread apart. For dh's sister, we allow a couple of hours once every two years. For my brother and his wife, he is welcome to drop by our house for a visit without her, otherwise two hrs. on Thanksgiving Day and Easter. Life is much, much better for all concerned.

Now, that said, enforcing the boundary was easier with the BPD than the NPD. The NPD in law also has a psychotic tendency and when her control over others unraveled as one by one we cut her off, she became physically abusive and we had to get the authorities involved.

In the above situations, the two hour gatherings with the entire family occur in public places which also seems to force the offender to recognize and accept the boundary. I am a big fan of busy restaurants, parks, and museums for this purpose. With grandparents, you can legitimately arrange an outing in which they getto play the part of involved grandchild admirer - maintaining illusion being very important to them - and your sanity is preserved by keeping them out of the house and busy thus lessening the chance of conversations becoming too personal.

As for your dad, I understand completely. My brother, without the company of the very wicked woman he feels he can never leave, is a really nice person and a wonderful uncle. But, he enables her by refusing to stand up...he is her doormat and he refuses to do anything about it. He has allowed her to be abusive with his family and play mind games with everyone. He put her above his own children during their growing up years and one by one as they have reached adulthood, they have cut him out for their own mental survival. Four down, one to go and the youngest is having severe emotional problems and needs professional help which shewill not receive because NPD is not going to agree to let that child see a professional she cannot bamboozle.

Due to this, I no longer cut my brother any slack. He made his choice, and will suffer the consequences for being her enabler. You may need to consider the same for your dad. In the end, you have a first loyalty to preserve healthy relationships with your children and husband. So do whatyou need to do and do not accept any guilt if that means you place boundaries on the relationship and it negatively affects his relationship with you.

[Meadowlark]

I feel for you. I endured a decade of "gaslighting" from my brother and SIL. I allowed them to hurt me time and time again...and yet I was the one who seemed unbalanced, emotional couldn't let it go. It was a big game to them. I disconnected from them 2 years ago. Of course I grieve for the relationship, but realize that the type of relationship I want can never be. They will never change and I refuse to open my heart to them ever again, It seems so cold and callous to other family who do not see through their games. In fact, I'm pretty sure my parents blame me for destroying their family. I am 100 % happier and finally have gone on with my life.

If you have people that see through her, then you have half the battle won. I understand you don't want to cut her off, it's a hard decision I know. But please...PLEASE do not let her or anyone do this to you. You need to seriously distant yourself from her if she continues this behavior. Do not allow anyone to treat you like that. It took me 10 years to believe this myself. I wasted a whole lot of tears crying over people who didn't deserve it.

[lea_lpz]

I am going through the same thing with my mom. I believe she is NPD with borderline BPD. I just had a baby 12 days ago. She called to fight with me literally two days after I got home. She knew I was home alone with my kids and dh was out running errands for us. Managed to change it around with, "I can't believe that you would call to fight with me in front of my granddaughter." Never mind I have two other children. She has some sort if fixation on my oldest daughter. My big offense- not wanting visitors until a day or two after having baby # 3 via 3rd c-section because my wishes to spend time with baby and actually get to hold and nurse her with privacy after coming out of recovery was ignored the last2 births. It was amazingly comforting to not have anyone to worry about entertaining / pleasing while vomiting every 30 minutes after major abdominal surgery and trying to breast feed. Go figure? Anyhow- no one came to visit in my family "just like I wanted" the entire 5 days I was in the hospital. No one has come to see her or call me. Really.

The thing that sucks is when you as a daughter would rather have no mother at all then your crazy one, shouldn't that be a red flag something is terribly wrong with the mother, and not the daughter?

[Catwoman]

I am going through the same thing with my mom. I believe she is NPD with borderline BPD. I just had a baby 12 days ago. She called to fight with me literally two days after I got home. She knew I was home alone with my kids and dh was out running errands for us. Managed to change it around with, "I can't believe that you would call to fight with me in front of my granddaughter." Never mind I have two other children. She has some sort if fixation on my oldest daughter. My big offense- not wanting visitors until a day or two after having baby # 3 via 3rd c-section because my wishes to spend time with baby and actually get to hold and nurse her with privacy after coming out of recovery was ignored the last2 births. It was amazingly comforting to not have anyone to worry about entertaining / pleasing while vomiting every 30 minutes after major abdominal surgery and trying to breast feed. Go figure? Anyhow- no one came to visit in my family "just like I wanted" the entire 5 days I was in the hospital. No one has come to see her or call me. Really.

The thing that sucks is when you as a daughter would rather have no mother at all then your crazy one, shouldn't that be a red flag something is terribly wrong with the mother, and not the daughter?

I'm sorry your mom is so difficult, but...

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW BABY!!! :hurray:

:party: :party: :party:

[LMD]

I am going through the same thing with my mom. I believe she is NPD with borderline BPD. I just had a baby 12 days ago. She called to fight with me literally two days after I got home. She knew I was home alone with my kids and dh was out running errands for us. Managed to change it around with, "I can't believe that you would call to fight with me in front of my granddaughter." Never mind I have two other children. She has some sort if fixation on my oldest daughter. My big offense- not wanting visitors until a day or two after having baby # 3 via 3rd c-section because my wishes to spend time with baby and actually get to hold and nurse her with privacy after coming out of recovery was ignored the last2 births. It was amazingly comforting to not have anyone to worry about entertaining / pleasing while vomiting every 30 minutes after major abdominal surgery and trying to breast feed. Go figure? Anyhow- no one came to visit in my family "just like I wanted" the entire 5 days I was in the hospital. No one has come to see her or call me. Really.

The thing that sucks is when you as a daughter would rather have no mother at all then your crazy one, shouldn't that be a red flag something is terribly wrong with the mother, and not the daughter?

congrats on your baby! Just after the birth of my 4th my mum sent me a letter asking if i was ready to call a truce! Ha. After the nasty way she cut me out of her life! She just wants to play good grandma and use an emotionally vulnerable time to manipulate me....

[Laurie4b]

your dad is likely getting his own version where you don't see.  My grandmother never allowed my grandfather to speak.  If he opened his mouth -she'd start talking over him and he'd turn away.   the only time I truly saw him happy was when he was somewhere she wasn't.  my mother said she treated him even worse in the few years before he died, but the only one who saw was my mother - because she was getting it too.

 

 

it was payback.  you said you recently stood up to her.  that's an unforgiveable action to a narcissist as it is threatening her sense of power.   that's also why she chose to do it in front of other people, and not just the two of you.

 

they're such "special" little snowflakes.  (*flake* being the operative word)

the other advantage of this is: refusing to play the mind games pisses them off, but there is only so much they can do.  dh used to be "excruciatingly" cheerful and polite to my grandmother.  she couldn't stand to be in the same room as him. 

 

 

re: gaslight. for those who haven't seen it, in the movie, charles boyer was NOT trying to make ingrid bergman crazy.  he was looking for something of value in the attic.  that was why he married her - the "thing" in the attic.  he was constantly searching, she'd hear the footsteps and see the lights dim because he'd turned on the gaslights in the attic causing all the other lights in the house to dim.  when she'd mention it to him, *then* he'd say she was imagining things - because he didn't want her to know he was searching the attic. so, she thought she was imagining things.  making her crazy was a byproduct of his scheming.

 

one of the most gratifying days of my life was realizing what my grandmother was - and that I was NOT crazy. (even though the rest of my family was still under her thumb and wouldn't cross her to save their lives.  my mother wanted to, but she was afraid.)

 

He also did things like hide his stuff in her purse, vanity, etc. and then blame her.  He was trying to make her think she was crazy and make others think she was crazy so he could have her committed.
 

[Grover]

re: movie Gaslight: Oh, he was most assuredly purposely driving her crazy.

OP, I have a tiny inkling of what this is like for you. I just got back from dinner with the in-laws where I finally had to just sit there in silence. Absolutely everything I said, no matter how benign, was "wrong" or caused irritated looks to be tossed my way. From the most inane conversational topics like"how is your food" to "I hear a funny noise in the back of the car" everything I said was apparently insufferable.

Ugh.

When I get my MIL alone, she's really not bad. It's when FIL and my husband or the kids or her friend are there that she just gets weird. I don't know what it is.

At the end of the meal, I ended up whispering too fiercely to my husband to make sure to sneakily leave a good tip (because if we openly leave a tip she never, ever approves of the amount and we have a 10 minute conversation about our bad tipping abilities) he got snippy with me because I was being too "intense." He's right. By the end of the dinner it was all I could do not to run screaming from the restaurant. But, oh it made me feel rotten to have him say, "Why are you talking like that to me? You're scowling at me. Stop it!" I felt like a heel.

Ok--this post was all about me. Sorry. I signed into to WTM to start a new post to vent, but instead of starting my own thread, I am here venting on yours.

All this to say that I feel so so so so so sorry for you. I really do. I'm so sad you have to deal with such a high level of disfunction and had to deal with it as a child as well. I have a tiny inkling of how awful it must have been.

don't feel bad, and vent away.  I'm sorry your in-laws are such hard work.  And I am SO grateful for mine.  For the first time in my life I actually feel accepted and loved by someone in a "parent" kind of way - with no strings attached.  It is amazing. 

 

Disengaging really is the only way and limiting all visits to two hours or less and spread apart. For dh's sister, we allow a couple of hours once every two years. For my brother and his wife, he is welcome to drop by our house for a visit without her, otherwise two hrs. on Thanksgiving Day and Easter. Life is much, much better for all concerned.

Now, that said, enforcing the boundary was easier with the BPD than the NPD. The NPD in law also has a psychotic tendency and when her control over others unraveled as one by one we cut her off, she became physically abusive and we had to get the authorities involved.

In the above situations, the two hour gatherings with the entire family occur in public places which also seems to force the offender to recognize and accept the boundary. I am a big fan of busy restaurants, parks, and museums for this purpose. With grandparents, you can legitimately arrange an outing in which they getto play the part of involved grandchild admirer - maintaining illusion being very important to them - and your sanity is preserved by keeping them out of the house and busy thus lessening the chance of conversations becoming too personal.

As for your dad, I understand completely. My brother, without the company of the very wicked woman he feels he can never leave, is a really nice person and a wonderful uncle. But, he enables her by refusing to stand up...he is her doormat and he refuses to do anything about it. He has allowed her to be abusive with his family and play mind games with everyone. He put her above his own children during their growing up years and one by one as they have reached adulthood, they have cut him out for their own mental survival. Four down, one to go and the youngest is having severe emotional problems and needs professional help which shewill not receive because NPD is not going to agree to let that child see a professional she cannot bamboozle.

Due to this, I no longer cut my brother any slack. He made his choice, and will suffer the consequences for being her enabler. You may need to consider the same for your dad. In the end, you have a first loyalty to preserve healthy relationships with your children and husband. So do whatyou need to do and do not accept any guilt if that means you place boundaries on the relationship and it negatively affects his relationship with you.

2 hours.  Oh lord no, that's much too long :-)  Unfortunately I can't leave them to interact with my children without verrrrrry close supervision - my son (first grandchild) is a golden child but my daughter (second grand daughter) is the "spare" and my mother constantly cuts her down.  They also have serious food allergies and some other health stuff but because it's only my say so on that (as in, me passing on test results and doctor consultations) she is inclined to try to cheat on that - luckily both kids know the consequences and read labels... but they shouldn't have to with a trusted adult.  Last time they stayed with her I collected them after three nights to find out my DD had vomitted every single night, several times.  Turned out they had not raised her bed OR given her her medication (she's a severe refluxer).  I later heard through the family grapevine that she "Was so worried about DD" but "her mother didn't seem concerned so we just put up with it, but being woken and thrown up on every night was awful, I'd have been straight to the doctor if it were *my* little girl".  (I should add - I rang everyday, the children are always too busy for me to talk to and they were always "fine" - when I asked why she didn't say anything she told me, "you needed a break, and she really was ok".  So, um, yeah, no :-)

 

I am going through the same thing with my mom. I believe she is NPD with borderline BPD. I just had a baby 12 days ago. She called to fight with me literally two days after I got home. She knew I was home alone with my kids and dh was out running errands for us. Managed to change it around with, "I can't believe that you would call to fight with me in front of my granddaughter." Never mind I have two other children. She has some sort if fixation on my oldest daughter. My big offense- not wanting visitors until a day or two after having baby # 3 via 3rd c-section because my wishes to spend time with baby and actually get to hold and nurse her with privacy after coming out of recovery was ignored the last2 births. It was amazingly comforting to not have anyone to worry about entertaining / pleasing while vomiting every 30 minutes after major abdominal surgery and trying to breast feed. Go figure? Anyhow- no one came to visit in my family "just like I wanted" the entire 5 days I was in the hospital. No one has come to see her or call me. Really.

The thing that sucks is when you as a daughter would rather have no mother at all then your crazy one, shouldn't that be a red flag something is terribly wrong with the mother, and not the daughter?

Congratulations on your little one... I hope you get to enjoy some lovely snuggling time.  Your last statement hits home.  I look forward to this woman being gone.  I hope that my father outlives her.  I dont think sadness for her passing will be my main emotion when she does go.  And that is so wrong.  I feel like such a bad person for feeling that way. 

[Grover]

heh, ok, FWW I was right. 

 

I had to stop in and return a bowl they left behind and, turns out that particular family member is staying with them at the moment.  (You'd think that might have come up when I was talking about them, but no, that way I would have called in to visit them and then mother couldn't claim I'm too rude to even bother to visit family when they're over). Anyway, I stayed to visit with these people a while and the pet came up (it was a fairly memorable pet, so it does come up, I didn't even need to bring it up).  What I thought happened did happen in the way I thought it did.  It was nice to visit with them.  Mother was in her "wonderful host" persona so, although she avoided talking to me, at least she was pleasant to be around. 

 

sigh... so that's it until the next go around.

[elfgivas]

fwiw, dh has a number of techniques he uses with dmil.

 

one is: "yup, that's me, i'm such a liar/thief/lay about/disappointment.  how about those Leafs?"

 

another is:  "Meet your needs."

 

a long time ago, we did decide to not let unkind things about people not present go unchallenged.  for those, one of us will say:

" how unkind.  that's not the way i remember it at all.  how about those Leafs?" 

" I don't remember that that way at all.  so and so is a wonderful x, y, z.  how about those Leafs?"

 

followed by, "would you like a cup of tea?"

 

so what it is is a one sentence dismissal/refusal to acknowledge followed by a subject changer.  the offer of tea is to remove me from the situation to boil the kettle.  if i don't leave, i run the risk of engaging further, which is inevitably a mistake.

 

and fwiw, we don't ever change plans for her.... because its not about the plans, its about having power over us, and i'm not playing.

 

good luck,

ann

 

[Guest]

(((((((((((((((Grover)))))))))))))

 

I think I'm using up my likes on all the good advice you're getting here. Disengaging really is the only way, and please don't give these people access to your kids.

 

I love the term "flying monkey" to describe the Golden Children and those who are taken in by the NPD's shenanigans.

 

I gave the N in my life the benefit of the doubt when she replied to an email about the recent suicide of a mutual friend with "I went to exhibit of Korean art and when (name of Flying Monkey) and I saw the placenta jars we had a good laff remembering the placenta you used to have in your freezer because you were too stupid to know the hospital would have taken care of it for you. What did you ever do with it anyway?" by blaming my email provider for not delivering the message and saying that I had some sad news that could wait because I didn't want to spoil her visit with the flying monkey.

 

Now N and flying monkeys are having a blast laughing at Crazy Ethel who can't decide which email address she wants them to use.

 

Another example of NPD thinking that made my jaw drop was "....when the Cold War thaw ruined all the good defense jobs....."

 

I can't cut contact altogether either, but it sure has helped to know I'm not the only person going through this and that they are very predictable.

[Alicia64]

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Another example of NPD thinking that made my jaw drop was "....when the Cold War thaw ruined all the good defense jobs....."

 

 

​One of my "jaw drop" moments was when we were at my N mom's best pal's memorial -- she died young at 68. A daughter was speaking about her mom mentioning that she was a gourmet cook. I turned to my mom and said, "Was Elaine a gourmet cook? I didn't know that." (I hadn't been around her in decades.)

​

​My crazy mom whispered back while laughing, "No! They drank more than anything if you ask me."

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​I was totally taken aback. At your best pal's memorial?!?!

​

​For crying out loud.

​

​Alley

[gardenmom5]

my jaw drop moment was when I was 13.  I had come to dog sit for her neighbors - but they were sick so weren't going anywhere.  I slept at grandmother's.  the husband came down to pay me for my time and was standing in the doorway.  she was behind me.  the entire time she's telling me to not accept the money because they weren't able to go. fine, whatever. as soon as he left, she said "well, they should have paid you" - and in a snotty tone.  I was completely dumbfounded.  I honestly don't remember if I was paid or not.  but that was the beginning of our relationship going off a cliff as I realized how utterly hypocritical she was. 

 

I never trusted her again.  I did watch her closely -and noticed just how common that type of behavior was from her.

[Hen]

two big jaw drop moments in a long line of them:

 

most recent- phone call with my N-mom,  mom: "Aunt M is really doing poorly, she's bed-ridden now....I'm so sad for her, she was always so athletic, so independent, a horse woman......"  (talking on about her memories of Aunt M being physical, starts crying as she talking to me) I am sympathetic and listening to her stories about things Aunt M liked to do and I ask a few questions in a 'tell-me-more' kind of way.... Mom: "so I guess I will be taking a trip soon to [State aunt lives in] Me: "oh, you're going to go see her! She'll really appreciate that, I'm sure, how nice of you!"  Mom: [confused] no, later, for the funeral, of course!

 

me: jaw open, no words. I was dumb-struct that my mom couldn't take the bother to go see her while she was alive, when it would have made my Aunt happy to see her, but would wait to go when she was dead for the funeral.  Money and time were not obstacles to my mom.

 

When I first realized my mom was most selfish person I knew:  my sister called my mom from the E.R. where she was after breaking her thigh bone in a swimming pool accident.  With her were her 3 K and under kids and a friend trying to help at the E.R.  my mother and step-dad lived around the block from sister, sister needed someone to come get the kids out of the germ-ridden E.R., her husband was out of town.  She tells mom what happened and mom's first words were something like "oh my gosh, I can't handle this stress and worry, I can't talk to you, talk to your step-dad!"  and she did nothing to help my sister once home with a cast.  My dad and step-mom stayed with her for weeks, driving a long distance to get there, I drove to help while homeschooling 5 kids, a relative flew in from out of state to help for a few weeks, but my mom never ever helped.

[Jenny in Florida]

congrats on your baby! Just after the birth of my 4th my mum sent me a letter asking if i was ready to call a truce! Ha. After the nasty way she cut me out of her life! She just wants to play good grandma and use an emotionally vulnerable time to manipulate me....

 

Sounds familiar.

 

My estranged family members showed up at the hospital after I had my daughter and were shocked -- shocked! -- when we asked the staff to remove them.

[lea_lpz]

Sounds familiar.

My estranged family members showed up at the hospital after I had my daughter and were shocked -- shocked! -- when we asked the staff to remove them.

Let's see... My mom wanted to know if my mother in law had seen the baby and whether or not she'd seen the baby. She was fuming that my kids had requested to stay at my mother in laws while I was in the hospital. She always is. Even though mil is a widow and have only stayed overnight a handful of times, where areas up until a year ago they were frequently doing an overnight weekend at her house. So as I relayed that we had meet her half way to pick up the kids and that she did meet baby there, and that my stepson was able to met his new sister as he came up with mil, she responds, "well that's nice she got to net her new grandson." We had a girl! I could tell in her voice she was only barely able to control her full fury. We've been limited contact for quite sometime so she generally tries to behave herself, but that never lasts long {sigh}. She was so focused on being slighted by having not met baby first she forgot the gender if the grandchild she so desperately wanted to met!?! She did finally lose it and yelled age wanted to uninvite my sister in law over to met the new baby! After no one came to visit or call after my stay in the hospital because I didn't want an audience immediately post c-section. The funny thing was before her rant I was going to invite her over Sunday too as well as let everyone know if they wanted to visit they could stop by to see her. In fact before she ripped into me all I responded with her whole tirade of "well can i Ever meet the baby?" was basically, "i never said you couldn't. All I said was I didn't want visitors until the next day when I was feeling better." Oh well. The peace and quite has been great and she's had the sniffles so probably been for the best.

[Grover]

you're reminding me of when my two were born.  Number 1 I called at 8am and said we are heading into the hospital, I will call you when baby arrives.  I had a very rough labour with a number of interventions (i.e. no fit state to call to check in and didn't want DH to leave me to use his cellphone).  Baby was born just after 8pm.  DH rang her at 814 pm to be told: it has been such a long, worrying day for us, we are too stressed out to talk to you now and hung up on.  She didn't tell my father.  I sent him a text about 7am the next morning and he was there to meet his grandbaby in half an hour (she was at church so he could sneak off).  Baby number 2 I was admitted the night before for antibiotics, but not in labour, meant to 'rest' because I was to be induced in the morning.  I began contractions about 1am but was told all the way along that I was not in labour - until baby was born at 651am.  They hadn't even called my husband because he was coming back in to be with me for the induction at 8am, and I wasn't in labour apparently.  So no one knew.  Mother was livid that we had "deliberately kept her out of it" by not telling her I was in labour (she knew I was in hospital / being induced the next day).  She still goes on about that - not being "allowed" to know baby was on the way.  Um.. neither did baby's daddy!

 

ahhh... these people are crazy aren't they?  sometimes moving to Mozambique is sorely tempting.

[LMD]

wow, so sorry to hear these (unfortunately similar) stories. We deliberately told no one when i went into labour with our first - it was on again off again and we were clueless. Plus mum had been very insistent about being present at the hospital, despite my numerous attempts to politely inform her otherwise... When we called her with the good news she was so upset. Took her a couple of extra hours to get to see us because she 'collapsed in pain from the hurt'. I've never been forgiven.

Guess what she did when my second was born? Showed up at the hospital uninvited. Sooo unimpressed. I actually had complications and had to be rushed to theatre after he was born, & DS needed some oxygen, but it was more important for her to meet him first.
Yeah, I'm glad we were estranged for my 4th.

[Mommy22alyns]

:grouphug:   I get it, I totally do.

 

I cut off contact 2+ years ago.  She lives in Missouri; I live in TN, about 9-10 hours away.  When the girls were little, she would refuse to come visit and demand that we pack up and go see HER.  We paid every single expense; she'd offer to help but then mysteriously not do it.  One time, we took a trip up there and paid for a nice dinner for all of us, my dad, and my sister.  One day, she bought me a cup of coffee at a gas station.  Couple of bucks, no big deal.  If she'd asked, I would have paid, but she never said anything.

 

Do you know, she held that against me for over a year and dragged it up and threw it in my face when I cut contact?  A cup of gas station coffee when we'd spent hundreds of dollars delivering her "beloved" granddaughters to her front step.

 

:huh: