New unpopular opinion...

[LMV]

I'm someone who doesn't really understand why there aren't clear lines. I always assumed that people who lead scouts, teach Sunday school, coach soccer (or whatever) are doing it because they love to, and enjoy the privilege of leading and influencing the kids. I don't feel a spontaneous urge to "pull my weight"... It's not for me, and it's not about me.

 

When people say, "We can't continue to offer this program without your help." -- I feel all like, "Then what on earth were you thinking when you offered the program in the first place? Did you think there was a fairy godmother involved? You told my child you had a program for her... Why don't you have it? Why is it my job to partner with you to offer what you put on the table? If I wanted to do it myself, I'd have just done it."

 

(If something is a "volunteer run organization" I assume that means they have volunteers that are running it, who will mostly continue to do so. I don't feel like it a fair term for an organization that has a theory by which it might run, but has plenty if critical jobs empty.)

 

Maybe it's the "bait and switch" that I don't like... Especially when i feel like the child has been baited, and the adult gets switched.

 

I do better with "The program will cost you x dollars, and y hours. You can expect to spend your hours doing things like a, b, c." Then I can count the cost and do the logic -- without any "other people do so much more than you" guilt served up as pseudo-motivational icing on the cake.

 

The volunteer work that DH and I do we do because we enjoy it, but also because we see that there is a need.  Sometimes we have also volunteered to make an activity available to our kids or make an activity more accessible to our children.  The 4-H Club we're currently the main leaders of we took on a more active role two years ago when one of the earlier main leaders had some life changes that required him to readjust his priorities and reassign his time.  We had both been assisting with various projects and programs before but stepped up and took on the organizational leaders role because we wanted the club to continue and thrive for the kids (including three of our daughters or foster daughters) currently involved.  I suppose in a sense we were at a "we can't continue this program without more help" crossroads but neither DH or I viewed it as a bait and switch but as a life ebbs and flows and when a family member has a life altering diagnosis you have to adjust to that and make the decisions that work best for your family.  

 

I can also understand how a program may expand beyond the size of their current volunteers and thus either need additional volunteers or need to impose restrictions on enrollment. Organizations often have two deep leadership policies and specific leader:youth requirements.  These policies make sense from a safety for all standpoint but are also often required by an overseeing body, and or insurance carrier. A group of volunteers may start a program with great intentions and adequate support for a moderate sized group but then when the group grows they will need more support.  In many cases this support may just materialize as families see a need to help and offer their support.  When this doesn't happen naturally then I think program leaders need to spell out what is needed clearly.  I think this is necessity rather than a serving of guilt or pseudo-motivational.  DSS and one of our DILs are teaching Sunday School this year mainly because there were just too many kids signed up for the class for their son's age group.  Our educational ministry chair informed the parents of that age group that they really needed to add a new class and she was praying that three volunteers would step forward to enable them to do so but if this didn't happen they would just have to limit to a single class and children would be included on a first come first served basis.  Our DIL is one of those people who always signs up for things right away so I suspect their son would have been included even if they hadn't stepped forward but she saw the need, realized she could meet it and decided that she would do so, so no child was turned away.  I do think it would be sad if our church had needed to restrict kids from Sunday school but I would prefer that happen than have a situation where inadequate supervision led to a dangerous situation for a child. 

[bettyandbob]

I'm not sure I get "I only volunteer for things I enjoy".

 

What about need. If your dc is in a program dependent on volunteers and there aren't enough volunteers do you slink out of the room and avoid eye contact? I'm not sure how a program is valuable enough for your dc to participate in, but not warrant any effort by you, while you expect sometime herculean effort by other parents to keep the program going. Projects done in meetings, swim meets, camping trips, etc do not happen magically. There are some parents working their butts off not because they "really enjoy it" but because they believe in the value of the experience for their own dc so they step up to make it happen. There are some parents who fill support roles, because that's all they can do. Every organization could use more parents filling support roles.

 

You do not have to be visible as a volunteer. There are lots of things to do to keep a program going outside of meeting time and away from  other people's kids. In the case of the OP, she may be unaware that the family she refers to volunteers in other capacities that are not visible--she may be passing judgement without knowing the whole story. However, in programs that rely heavily on volunteers, if you think it is something worthwhile for your dc, then you should be willing to do something. You can go to the leadership and ask for a small job or an invisible job.

[Haiku]

Are you saying the only volunteer opportunities in scouts are heavily kid involved? There are many, many things that keep programs for kids (scouts, sports, ect) going that do not require leading/supervising bunches of children.

 

No. I was simply relaying a personal story where it was assumed that I would love to volunteer but I didn't want to.

[bolt.]

It's probably just that children's activities are for children. If someone offeres something for children, I assume (a) that they actually have whatever they "offer" and (b ) that they welcome children to come and enjoy it. I'm not involved in that "transaction" -- other than giving permission for my children to be involved.

 

If there is a "cost" to me as a parent, I need to be told, so that I can weigh the value gained against the expectations. (Yes, some things are valuable enough to have a cost in volunteering or whatever... It just needs to be clear.)

 

If something "needs" volunteers and doesn't have enough, I expect it to stop. Its ridiculous to offer something to children if it doesn't exist.I don't feel like slinking just because other people overestimated what they could publicly offer to youngsters. I don't "expect" anything in particular. People are free to run successful programs or fold unsuccessful ones. It's pretty meaningless to me. I'm happy with or without that sort of stuff. Most of it isn't terribly worthwhile in my eyes, but kids tend to like it, I guess.

[SKL]

I think volunteer stuff has gotten harder over the years as organizations have to do more in the name of "safety" etc.  Most of it isn't objectively necessary and it waters down the experience for the kids IMO.  I honestly don't know why people continue to bother at all, but I guess it must be because they see a lot of value in it for their kids.  So they are willing to do that.  It's their choice.  It doesn't justify their judging others who don't make the same choice IMO.

 

I would rather everyone just let their kids go to the park in the afternoons and come up with their own ideas for a few hours.

[milovany]

Sigh. I guess UO no longer suggests what it did in The epic length one.

I was only vaguely aware of that long thread and what it was about.  This thread didn't automatically tie to that one (or what it was about) for me by just saying "unpopular opinion."  It wasn't until your post that I realized, ah. 

[Haiku]

Sigh. I guess UO no longer suggests what it did in The epic length one.

 

Or people (like me) never read that thread and therefore had no idea there was etiquette involved.

[Haiku]

I'm not sure how a program is valuable enough for your dc to participate in, but not warrant any effort by you, while you expect sometime herculean effort by other parents to keep the program going. 

 

Honestly, if my kids like an activity but volunteering for it doesn't float my boat and it goes under, so be it. Not every activity has to stick around forever. If there aren't that many people passionate about it, maybe it has outlived its usefulness.

 

That doesn't make me someone who needs to slink around or avoid eye contact with anyone. If someone asks me to volunteer and I can't or don't want to, I just say "Sorry, I can't this time." Volunteering is not a zero-sum game. If I don't volunteer for everything that my kids participate in, it doesn't mean I don't volunteer for other things that other kids and families might benefit from.

[skimomma]

Some people do not have the gift of being good with other people's kids. 

 

This is a very important point.  I am one of those people.  The very thought of driving a car full of kids that are not mine gives me a panic attack.

 

My dd is involved in three major activities.  All require parent "volunteers."  

 

One has blessedly clear guidelines about what is required.  I really appreciate that we knew what we were getting into beforehand and could decide whether we were prepared to participate.  In this case, there are jobs that do not require interacting with kids.  I signed up for those types of jobs and am happy to participate.  All good.

 

The other two have zero guidelines.  Volunteers are required and usually people are guilted into doing it.  Some parents do a lot and others do nothing.  It does not make for good relations between parents.  I put in my time in both organizations but am irritated by it.  I am irritated that some people do not contribute.  I am irritated that I allowed myself to be guilted into volunteering in ways that I would prefer not do.  And most of all, I am irritated that there was no plan and we did not know what we were getting into beforehand.  

 

We live in a  very isolated area so I am not irritated enough to pull dd out of these activities.  So, forward we go.  But my experience tells me that mandatory volunteer guidelines are far more fair to each family and allows people to NOT be put in a position where they have to say no when asked to help because they did not know what was expected before agreeing to participate.  Even with required hours, I think it is perfectly acceptable to make exceptions for families that need it for whatever reason.  I am also fine with paying more for an activity if I am unwilling or unable to participate, thus giving a financial break to people who can put in more time OR pay staff to fill those roles.  This might drive the price up past my budget but that is better than driving my "time-price" up past my "budget" AFTER signing my kid up.

[Haiku]

I think volunteer stuff has gotten harder over the years as organizations have to do more in the name of "safety" etc.  Most of it isn't objectively necessary and it waters down the experience for the kids IMO. 

 

Yep. I really wanted to help out with the Learn to Play Hockey program offered by USA Hockey in conjunction with my kids' hockey organization. I don't have a current background check and I haven't taken their classes, so I couldn't. I just wanted to be an extra set of hands on the ice. I don't need special training for that, really. I will most likely do it so that I can participate in the future, but still ... I'm not trying to coach or anything. I'd just like to be on the ice with the kids who are learning.

 

As it is, I'm now barred from the locker room and the bench area because I don't have coaching certification. I don't need to be a coach to tie skates and pass out water bottles.

[poppy]

It's probably just that children's activities are for children. If someone offeres something for children, I assume (a) that they actually have whatever they "offer" and (b ) that they welcome children to come and enjoy it. I'm not involved in that "transaction" -- other than giving permission for my children to be involved.

 

If there is a "cost" to me as a parent, I need to be told, so that I can weigh the value gained against the expectations. (Yes, some things are valuable enough to have a cost in volunteering or whatever... It just needs to be clear.)

 

If something "needs" volunteers and doesn't have enough, I expect it to stop. Its ridiculous to offer something to children if it doesn't exist.I don't feel like slinking just because other people overestimated what they could publicly offer to youngsters. I don't "expect" anything in particular. People are free to run successful programs or fold unsuccessful ones. It's pretty meaningless to me. I'm happy with or without that sort of stuff. Most of it isn't terribly worthwhile in my eyes, but kids tend to like it, I guess.

 

This sounds like, if you offer my kids stuff, you are obligated to provide it or shut it down. But it's all pretty worthless to me.

Having other people be obligated to provide a service that you find has minimal or value puts the volunteers in a pretty lousy position.  Neither their time nor their service is valued at all, in that way of thinking. 

 

I volunteer a lot, and I do it because I enjoy it. And I do agree that program needs should be made clear to parents.  But I also think.... if I knew parents felt this way about what I do, I would .... I don't know.  Feel despair.  Fervently hope you aren't passing along that way of thinking to your kids.  I want us to be a community partners. I am not your service provider. 

[nmoira]

We are involved in scouts, very involved. DH and I do a lot of volunteering, and one of us goes on almost every campout. Tonight I asked a parent whose 3 sons have been in for several years if they could help drive on an event this weekend. They have never once helped with anything, to my knowledge.

 

OT and just a point of curiosity. Girl Scouts doesn't allow parents to drive any other than their own children unless they are GS members and have passed a security check. Does Boy Scouts not have this requirement?

[KungFuPanda]

This may be an easy fix. Inform the family that, due to lack of drivers, there is no room for their boys in the carpool. That frees up three existing carpool spots and may solve your carpooling dilemma. 😈

[Guest submarines]

Or people (like me) never read that thread and therefore had no idea there was etiquette involved.

Oh no! There are people who haven't read The Unpopular Opinion Thread?

 

[shawthorne44]

My philosophy is that you should be willing to be a part of any organization that you voluntarily join.  It can be within your limitations, but you have to be willing to pitch in.  This would apply to things like scouts, but not to things you pay for like a Ballet class.  It doesn't apply to non-voluntary things like an HOA.  

 

I think morally you have to be willing to help out.  If you don't have time, then you don't have time for that club/organization.  It doesn't matter if you also volunteer at the Food Bank.  It doesn't mean that you have to be co-leader.  You could maybe be the one that purchases the groceries for the weekend campout.  

[mamajudy]

There have been times when I have been the volunteer feeling that others were using me as a free babysitter. Then there have been times when I have dropped my kids off at scouts (or whatever) and have not volunteered. Sometimes I was running other kids to their activities. A couple of years, I was caring for my elderly FIL who had ALS and could not be left alone for any length of time. Some activities are more "up my alley" and I have something to contribute. Others are not. We all have seasons in our lives and circumstances that may prevent us from doing what others may be doing. I have learned not to be so quick to judge others when they are not doing what I think they should be doing. And as for the OP's comment about the number of children a family has, it was ignorant and unnecessary. 

 

And if you decided to have only 2 DC just so that you can take care of my kids, then you will be happy to know that my kids will be contributing to the Social Security system (assuming it still exists) when you are collecting it. And paying taxes, serving in the armed forces, designing the latest technology, and caring for the sick. You may even need a cardiologist some day, and who knows? My DD may be the one who saves your life.

[SKL]

Sounds to me (from OP's update) like the scouts' policy is to encourage boys to join even if their parents don't volunteer.  So that is their policy/philosophy and it seems to me that the local leaders should follow it.

 

I think each person should volunteer to the point they want to.  If there isn't enough interest to do xyz, then do something less than xyz or find another organization or enjoy your free time.  If there isn't enough interest to make the scouts successful, then why fake it?  Let the higher leadership know.  Then maybe they will make some changes to either reduce volunteer burden or increase the intrinsic motivation to volunteer.

 

There's an art to making people want to volunteer.  I used to be in a leadership position for many aspects of this, so I've done a lot of brainstorming and have been very successful.  You have to go in believing that most people are good-hearted.  If you go in under a cloud of bitterness and frustration, you're not going to be successful.

[Haiku]

I think morally you have to be willing to help out.

 

I think there would be far fewer children's activities if this were the expectation. Fewer people would bring their kids, so there wouldn't be a critical mass to keep things going. My kids play hockey. We pay for it, but it is a volunteer-run organization. It wouldn't exist without volunteers. My husband has been on the board for several years, and this coming season he will be the house commissioner. He does lament the lack of volunteers, but it's mostly for things that people grump about but don't step up to do anything about, not the day-to-day operations. The organization as a whole runs quite well, and the people (like my husband) who want to devote a lot of time to it do. Others, like me, devote casual amounts of time to it. We staff sign-up tables at tournaments, we keep the score sheets, we man the penalty box, we solicit sponsorships from local businesses. There are some families whom I have never observed doing these things. Yet the organization continues not just to run but thrive. I wouldn't dream of telling people they have a moral obligation to volunteer for their kid's hockey organization. If all they want to do is pay their fees and have their kid show up, that's fine by me. It provides a team for my kids and helps pay for the ice. If every parent were expected to be involved, we'd run out things for people to do and start to suffer from "too many cooks" syndrome. Seriously. We serve about 600 families. They simply can't all be involved as volunteers. There's not that much to do.

 

Honestly, I am busy. I avoid activities for my kids that require that I volunteer. If "you" are offering an activity and I choose to avail my kid of the opportunity, that doesn't turn it into my activity. It's still an activity that "you" are offering.

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug:

 

I have been involved in a sport that is paid plus needs minimal volunteering from parents , roster of scorers etc. about half of the parents do not do their share of scoring duties. It can really make it hard to have the games function. I do not think it unreasonable to ask someone to drive their own kids to a camp or whatever. especially as there might be no alternative way of getting them there. Maybe you could ask parents to either drive their kids to the camp or pay the$$ for a taxi for their children to get there or perhaps arrange a bus and send out a notice that  says something like because of lack of willing parent drivers, every family will need to pay $$$ for a bus to get their children to camp.

[bolt.]

This sounds like, if you offer my kids stuff, you are obligated to provide it or shut it down. But it's all pretty worthless to me.

Having other people be obligated to provide a service that you find has minimal or value puts the volunteers in a pretty lousy position. Neither their time nor their service is valued at all, in that way of thinking.

 

I volunteer a lot, and I do it because I enjoy it. And I do agree that program needs should be made clear to parents. But I also think.... if I knew parents felt this way about what I do, I would .... I don't know. Feel despair. Fervently hope you aren't passing along that way of thinking to your kids. I want us to be a community partners. I am not your service provider.

I mean that children's activities are not terribly worthwhile to me as an individual. I think they are often somewhat worthwhile to children. That's why children tend to appreciate them. Whether or not a person provides a service to my child has very little to do with me. It's certainly not a service for me, as it is clearly not designed to benefit me. It's designed to benefit children.

 

When someone benefits my children, I thank them, I flatter them, I buy them candy and nuts and tell them that they make a difference to children. I don't become that person or take on their role.

 

The people are "obligated" by nothing but their own good intentions to serve children. If they find they can't, or would rather not, continue to do so -- I expect nothing more than, "Sorry, I thought this would work, but it isn't, so it's over." No obligation is implied whatsoever. (That's much more responsible than, "I thought this would work, so it must work. Why aren't you, you and you making it work? You must be bad people. Look at how much stuff you are making me do for you. You should do stuff too!")

 

Do you really do stuff because it's supposed to matter to parents? These things are supposed to be about the kids.

 

I'm a grad student with great professors. They benefit me, provide a service for me, etc. I am the target of their activity -- I am the one in that classroom. Does that matter to my parents? Should they thank my profs in more than a passing way? Should they value what I am getting? Is the service being provided to my parents? Of course not: in that setting I am an induvidual. That's the way I see my kids in their activities: individuals with leaders... Nothing really to do with me. Not helping me with anything. Not serving me in any way. Perhaps friendly to me, but I'm not really the focus (I hope)!

[Lisa R.]

 

 

"Gosh, no, with so many kids in so many activities,we are really busy just getting them to things, we don't have time to volunteer." They have 8 DC, all of whom are involved in activities that rely on volunteers.

 

 

 

 

 

It is interesting to note that the non-participating parent is the one who blamed their large family size on their lack of volunteering, not the OP.

 

I also find it interesting that these parents admitted that they not only don't volunteer in Scouts, but also don't volunteer in any of their children's activities.

 

If a family of any size is highly involved in several activities, it is likely impossible to be actively volunteering in all of them at the same time. Some activities have volunteer slots that are better suited for certain personalities. This parent is choosing to enroll in multiple activities that need many volunteers. They are choosing not to volunteer *at all* in *any* of them, by their own admission.

 

This appears that the family in question is taking advantage of the good work and efforts of others. If I were them, I'd be embarrassed to make such an admission. I'd be further embarrassed to blame my family size on it, as well.

 

I don't blame the OP for being irritated. It is well known that Scouts is a volunteer-run organization. This should be no surprise to anybody. There are large and small jobs all the time in Scouts. Even with a very busy schedule, there could be something they could find to do in Scouts. If they absolutely couldn't help in a small job in Scouts, perhaps they could help in another one of their kids' activities. Something. Sometime. Somewhere. They admitted they aren't willing to do anything because they have "so many kids". 

 

People that choose not to take responsibility make more work for other people. The fact that the OP sees and recognizes this and is still willing to pick up the slack, does not make her "burnt out" or "needing a break from volunteering". She's being taken advantage of and she knows it. And, for the good of the kids in the group, she's going to continue participating to the best of her abilities. Good for you OP. Hang in there. 

[Lisa R.]

 

 

And if you decided to have only 2 DC just so that you can take care of my kids, then you will be happy to know that my kids will be contributing to the Social Security system (assuming it still exists) when you are collecting it. And paying taxes, serving in the armed forces, designing the latest technology, and caring for the sick. You may even need a cardiologist some day, and who knows? My DD may be the one who saves your life.

 

How do any of these future possibilties justify taking advantage of people right  now? It seems like an excuse to get out of current duties. 

[school17777]

Oh no! There are people who haven't read The Unpopular Opinion Thread?

It is so big! I must have missed when it started.

 

I missed the crockpot controversy too. Can't imagine what that's all about.

[SKL]

Yeah, along the lines of what Bolt said, I do volunteer work for kids because I want to help the kids.  These are kids whose parents have zero chance of participating in the volunteer project.  The whole point of my doing stuff for the kids is that they aren't having certain worthwhile stuff done for them by their parents or teachers.  (That's not a knock on the parents/teachers, who do other stuff for the kids.)

 

That's how it works with every kid-oriented organization I've ever been involved in.  I feel called to help, and I help.  It's none of my business what the kids' parents do or don't do.  However, if I feel overwhelmed or abused, I either scale back or I quit.

 

The Brownies can either invite my kids to join on their own (without me involved), or they can exclude my kids, but what they'd better not do is accept my kids and then crib that I'm not being responsible for my kids.  I didn't ask anyone to start a troop, run a troop, or recruit members.

[Haiku]

I also find it interesting that these parents admitted that they not only don't volunteer in Scouts, but also don't volunteer in any of their children's activities.

 

First, we are reading the OP's second-hand description of what was said, not necessarily a verbatim transcript.

 

And second, they never (in the words the OP quoted) said they don't volunteer in any of their children's activities.

 

They were asked to drive to this campout. They said they were busy getting their kids to activities and didn't have time to volunteer. Perhaps they simply meant they didn't have time this time.

 

I don't really care either way, but you read into what the OP relayed things that were not expressly stated.

[SKL]

It is interesting to note that the non-participating parent is the one who blamed their large family size on their lack of volunteering, not the OP.

 

I also find it interesting that these parents admitted that they not only don't volunteer in Scouts, but also don't volunteer in any of their children's activities.

 

If a family of any size is highly involved in several activities, it is likely impossible to be actively volunteering in all of them at the same time. Some activities have volunteer slots that are better suited for certain personalities. This parent is choosing to enroll in multiple activities that need many volunteers. They are choosing not to volunteer *at all* in *any* of them, by their own admission.

 

This appears that the family in question is taking advantage of the good work and efforts of others. If I were them, I'd be embarrassed to make such an admission. I'd be further embarrassed to blame my family size on it, as well.

 

I don't blame the OP for being irritated. It is well known that Scouts is a volunteer-run organization. This should be no surprise to anybody. There are large and small jobs all the time in Scouts. Even with a very busy schedule, there could be something they could find to do in Scouts. If they absolutely couldn't help in a small job in Scouts, perhaps they could help in another one of their kids' activities. Something. Sometime. Somewhere. They admitted they aren't willing to do anything because they have "so many kids". 

 

People that choose not to take responsibility make more work for other people. The fact that the OP sees and recognizes this and is still willing to pick up the slack, does not make her "burnt out" or "needing a break from volunteering". She's being taken advantage of and she knows it. And, for the good of the kids in the group, she's going to continue participating to the best of her abilities. Good for you OP. Hang in there. 

 

I took the "we don't have time to volunteer" as a nice way of saying "no, and please don't ask me again."  It is very likely that they had tried to volunteer in the past and found it too overwhelming on top of everything else at this time in their life.  It is also likely that they do stuff behind the scenes but did not find it necessary to make excuses for saying "no" to the request to drive this Saturday.  If someone asks me to do something like that I would give a quick but polite answer, I wouldn't stand there and list all the financial and professional assistance I have been providing for every nonprofit organization I've touched since becoming a parent.  I would drive away quick because I'm guessing that the OP had a certain look on her face at that point.

 

Again, the scouts have a policy to include this family's kids regardless.  The parents have no obligation.

[Joanne]

 

 

I think each person should volunteer to the point they want to.

 

 

 

When my kids were younger, I volunteered many hours that I did not enjoy. I put on my happy face, and I did a great job - because I have that maturity and life skill. But I still didn't like it. I would have rather sat at Starbucks and read a book.

 

But I considered doing my part to be part of parenting in the USA in 1995 - current. It was part of the many things I did/do as a parent, some of which includes sucking it up and doing things I don't want to AND finding a way to do so happily, at least on the surface if not authentically.

 

I don't regret those hours at all.

 

Of course, I come from a family who did NOT volunteer as parents. And I was very aware of how other parents were involved and engaged, and mine were not. They never volunteered, never drove, never initiated, never organized, never did behind the scenes work. I promised myself, no matter what, I would not be THAT parent. My parents did many things "right" but this was not one of them.

 

So, even though I am an introvert, have limited time and funds, and don't like other people's kids - I found ways to participate and I followed through.

[Amy in NH]

I really like the idea of a clear volunteer requirement. Personally, I need the way I can help spelled out for me. Otherwise, I am clueless and feel I get in the way when I try to help.

 

[sNIP]

 

This is why I have my families sign a contract when they fill out their enrollment forms for my 4-H Club.  It lists the obligations they are agreeing to Up Front for their children to continue as members-in-good-standing.

[Amy in NH]

I do a ton of volunteering for organizations that provide opportunities to my children and other family's children, and help protect my rights and the rights of others. 

 

In my experience there are people who are selfish blood-sucking entitled grabbers, who want everything handed to them, won't participate even in what they have signed on for, and complain if they don't get their way even over other people who have put in time and helped out. 

 

If you have an illness, are at a busy season of life caring for elderly parents, a newborn baby, etc, etc, etc, that prevents you from helping when the volunteer organizer needs help, then say so.  But then offer to help with something that is within your means or you will look like that entitled shirker and don't be offended when you are labeled so.  Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

 

Be aware that the volunteer organizer sometimes has an illness, an elderly parent, a newborn baby, etc, etc, etc that comes up too.

 

My parents didn't sign me up for grad school, but I did sign my kids up for 4-H.

[Mrs Mungo]

Some people do not have the gift of being good with other people's kids. I would prefer these people just tell me no, that they cannot volunteer to help out with the kids' activities, than to show up and make it abundantly clear why they do not usually volunteer. 

 

Most large groups (especially scout groups) need people behind the scenes-doing paperwork, accepting checks, setting up camping or field trips, planning events, helping with the website, etc. 

[linders]

Hi, OP here! I appreciate all your replies and perspectives. Organizations that rely solely on volunteers are certainly a mixed bag, and even when parents are told upon joining that it only works so long as there are volunteers, the dynamics can be difficult given the variety of family circumstances.

 

I was too busy opening a bottle of wine to write a longer note last night, but suffice to say that as Committee Chair for the pack (4 years) and Parent Chair in the troop, I do know that this family never volunteers in scouts. Doesn't want to make phone calls, doesn't want to put together a brochure, can't help set up or take down anything, and certainly will never drive. Ah, well, I don't remember which post it was, but many thanks to someone who gave me the idea that maybe those who do the work should get preference when space is limited. Their boys may not be going on this one if they cannot be delivered to the campout location, which is only 25 minutes away.

[mamajudy]

How do any of these future possibilties justify taking advantage of people right  now? It seems like an excuse to get out of current duties. 

 

The things I listed are not future possibilities; they are what my kids are doing now. I never took advantage of anyone. I did my fair share of volunteering. We are all in a different stage of life. Just because you are volunteering right now and I am not (from what you can see) doesn't mean that I never did or never will, or for that matter, that I am not at this very moment volunteering someplace else. Believe me, I still put many hours into community service, as do my kids -- the ones you feel were sucking up your time. My point in listing those "future possibilites," as you called them, is that today my "many" kids are volunteering and serving their communities and their nation. And that mother of two who thinks that she has sacrificed so much for my "large" family, is now reaping the benefit of her service, many times over. 

[Amy in NH]

The things I listed are not future possibilities; they are what my kids are doing now. I never took advantage of anyone. I did my fair share of volunteering. We are all in a different stage of life. Just because you are volunteering right now and I am not (from what you can see) doesn't mean that I never did or never will, or for that matter, that I am not at this very moment volunteering someplace else. Believe me, I still put many hours into community service, as do my kids -- the ones you feel were sucking up your time. My point in listing those "future possibilites," as you called them, is that today my "many" kids are volunteering and serving their communities and their nation. And that mother of two who thinks that she has sacrificed so much for my "large" family, is now reaping the benefit of her service, many times over. 

 

If you didn't 1) choose to have a large family AND 2) sign your large family up for volunteer-run activities AND 3) refuse to help in any way in those activities AND 4) use the large family you chose to have and sign up as an excuse for why you can't ever help with anything, then this thread is not about you personally.

 

FWIW, I know large families who do help out and small families who don't.  And it's not about me either.

[mamajudy]

If you didn't 1) choose to have a large family AND 2) sign your large family up for volunteer-run activities AND 3) refuse to help in any way in those activities AND 4) use the large family you chose to have and sign up as an excuse for why you can't ever help with anything, then this thread is not about you personally.

 

FWIW, I know large families who do help out and small families who don't.  And it's not about me either.

 

I understand that this thread is not about me; I am using myself as an example. I am trying to make several points here.

 

1) We don't always know people's circumstances, so we shouldn't be so quick to judge.

2) There are different seasons in our lives. There are times to volunteer and times when it is not possible to do so.

3) Large families can produce MANY productive members of society who will benefit you in the future. Don't be so quick to look at the family with many kids and think they are taking advantage of you.

 

Volunteering, especially in youth activities, is an investment in the future. Isn't the reason for volunteering to make the world a better place? If a person is doing it grudgingly, then perhaps that person should not be volunteering. 

[Amy in NH]

I understand that this thread is not about me; I am using myself as an example. I am trying to make several points here.

 

1) We don't always know people's circumstances, so we shouldn't be so quick to judge. Agreed. This goes for judging the volunteer as well.

2) There are different seasons in our lives. There are times to volunteer and times when it is not possible to do so.  Agreed.

3) Large families can produce MANY productive members of society who will benefit you in the future. Don't be so quick to look at the family with many kids and think they are taking advantage of you.  Agreed.  People of all different backgrounds take advantage of other people.  No-one was looking at the family because they were a large family until they themselves used that as an excuse.  This is not about across-the-board discrimination against large families.

 

Volunteering, especially in youth activities, is an investment in the future. Isn't the reason for volunteering to make the world a better place? If a person is doing it grudgingly, then perhaps that person should not be volunteering.   I don't see how expressing justified frustration over people not stepping when when they probably really should is "grudgingly" volunteering.  I don't get the sense that the OP is volunteering grudgingly.  I do get the sense that you have an axe to grind against people who speak out about anything to do with a large family, though.

 

[mamajudy]

...no axe to grind regarding those who speak out about large families. Just throwing out some food for thought. 

 

I understand the OP's frustration. I have had times when I felt the same. But I have learned to try to be more understanding, realizing that I don't know everything about people's lives or their circumstances.

[DawnM]

20% of the people do 80% of the work in ANY volunteer environment.

 

Church

Scouts

Sports

4-H

FIRST (lego league and robotics)

Co-op

ETC.....

 

It just is what it is.  

 

And some parents will never, ever do anything (those are often the complainers too!)

 

 

[Haiku]

So, if we can't volunteer we should be upfront about why and there is an understanding that there are seasons to people's lives and some people won't be in the volunteering season right now ...

 

... but if we are upfront about the fact that the reason we don't volunteer is because we are busy raising our large family, then we are entitled shirkers who should slink around avoiding eye contact because we are taking advantage of people?

 

Can't have it both ways, folks.

 

(And no, I don't consider my three kids a large family, so I'm using "we" in the generic sense.)

[SKL]

Well, this kind of negativity is why I will never put my kids into an organization like scouts.  Thanks for reminding me.  I'll stick with people who are happy with their choices and have better things to think about than what I may or may not be doing with my personal time.

 

The question of whether my kids' presence would contribute in some way to the organization is apparently moot.

[SKL]

How different this discussion would be if someone got on here and complained about paying more taxes than the family of ten down the street.  Or compared to the family with the mom who stays home to have more time for volunteering at her kid's activities.

[DawnM]

There are plenty of drop off programs where the adults are paid to do the work.  I think if your child is in a free program, and if you CAN help, you should if they need help.

 

BUT, our groups are quite clear......you MUST sign up for at least one job during the year for your child to be involved.  If a family doesn't like that, they can opt to join a group that doesn't have those requirements.

 

Dawn

 

 

[SKL]

... many thanks to someone who gave me the idea that maybe those who do the work should get preference when space is limited. Their boys may not be going on this one if they cannot be delivered to the campout location, which is only 25 minutes away.

 

That may be what ends up happening, but I think it's unfair to change plans at the last minute when families may not have time to adjust.  Sounds like you'd rather not have those boys in the troop, period.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

I think there would be far fewer children's activities if this were the expectation. Fewer people would bring their kids, so there wouldn't be a critical mass to keep things going. My kids play hockey. We pay for it, but it is a volunteer-run organization. It wouldn't exist without volunteers. My husband has been on the board for several years, and this coming season he will be the house commissioner. He does lament the lack of volunteers, but it's mostly for things that people grump about but don't step up to do anything about, not the day-to-day operations. The organization as a whole runs quite well, and the people (like my husband) who want to devote a lot of time to it do. Others, like me, devote casual amounts of time to it. We staff sign-up tables at tournaments, we keep the score sheets, we man the penalty box, we solicit sponsorships from local businesses. There are some families whom I have never observed doing these things. Yet the organization continues not just to run but thrive. I wouldn't dream of telling people they have a moral obligation to volunteer for their kid's hockey organization. If all they want to do is pay their fees and have their kid show up, that's fine by me. It provides a team for my kids and helps pay for the ice. If every parent were expected to be involved, we'd run out things for people to do and start to suffer from "too many cooks" syndrome. Seriously. We serve about 600 families. They simply can't all be involved as volunteers. There's not that much to do.

 

But, those kids are all on teams that need coaches, equipment managers, first aid people, referees, moms to being snacks and give rides and so forth. Running the hockey league isn't the only level. Not every scout parent is wanted or needed on the district level, but lots of hands are needed at the troop level.

[Lisbeth]

I'm pretty amazed at people who would exclude these boys to get back at the parents. Really? I think that is pretty bad.  This is why I love pay-to-participate groups. Also...shouldn't volunteering be, you know, voluntary? To have a true volunteering spirit, I say quit keeping score and being resentful. Especially in an organization that does not require parents to volunteer. If you can't let it go, it's time to resign.

[Guest submarines]

I'm pretty amazed at people who would exclude these boys to get back at the parents. Really? I think that is pretty bad.  This is why I love pay-to-participate groups. Also...shouldn't volunteering be, you know, voluntary? To have a true volunteering spirit, I say quit keeping score and being resentful. Especially in an organization that does not require parents to volunteer. If you can't let it go, it's time to resign.

 

I have no experience with the organization, but after reading the thread I assumed that volunteering, was in fact, required. It is not??

 

[SKL]

I have no experience with the organization, but after reading the thread I assumed that volunteering, was in fact, required. It is not??

 

 

I thought the OP clarified that the scouts prohibit volunteering requirements.  The higher ups don't want to exclude kids whose parents won't or can't help out.

[gaillardia]

I've been on both sides: of having a big family, dh working late on Fridays and/or Saturdays, no room if I'm watching my own little ones too so I couldn't transport scouts.

Now I can help transport scouts to or from a camp out, or take their gear, or help out with driving or leadership for the young women's yearly week-long camp.

Maybe the parents need to be presented with more details, such as it only takes 20 minutes to get to the campsite, or telling them they'd only have to take 3 kids. Maybe they would help if it so happened that there really wasn't anyone else to do it this time.

Sometimes we've had to ask parents to bring their kids to the function instead of providing rides for all.

 

[linders]

I've been on both sides: of having a big family, dh working late on Fridays and/or Saturdays, no room if I'm watching my own little ones too so I couldn't transport scouts.

Now I can help transport scouts to or from a camp out, or take their gear, or help out with driving or leadership for the young women's yearly week-long camp.

Maybe the parents need to be presented with more details, such as it only takes 20 minutes to get to the campsite, or telling them they'd only have to take 3 kids. Maybe they would help if it so happened that there really wasn't anyone else to do it this time.

Sometimes we've had to ask parents to bring their kids to the function instead of providing rides for all.

They had all the details. Three weeks ago. They just sort of have a blanket policy of answering "no" to any and all requests - driving, paperwork, cleanup (where everyone's littles tend to play in the church playground while olders and adults clean up).

[linders]

I'm pretty amazed at people who would exclude these boys to get back at the parents. Really? I think that is pretty bad.  This is why I love pay-to-participate groups. Also...shouldn't volunteering be, you know, voluntary? To have a true volunteering spirit, I say quit keeping score and being resentful. Especially in an organization that does not require parents to volunteer. If you can't let it go, it's time to resign.

 

There aren't enough seats. Period. What do you suggest, walking? All the other kids' parents have actively helped in the past.

 

And oddly, once I called mom with this proposition (the only way her boys can go is if they are delivered)...she or DH can bring them.

[Haiku]

But, those kids are all on teams that need coaches, equipment managers, first aid people, referees, moms to being snacks and give rides and so forth. Running the hockey league isn't the only level. Not every scout parent is wanted or needed on the district level, but lots of hands are needed at the troop level.

 

Actually, the refs are paid by the local reffing organization (they are not volunteers), most teams don't do snacks, every child is responsible for their own equipment (which they own; it is not the property of the league), and families drive their own kids. The rinks we contract with have their own paid staff for first aid. The coach is responsible for water bottles and pucks. It's part of being a coach (there are three for my kids' team).

 

I was including the running of the teams in my previous comments. There is still far less to do than we could find for every parent (or even one parent from every family). I'm not saying that volunteers/volunteering aren't important. I volunteer for the team. But I don't cast aspersions at parents who don't, and you can very successfully run a league without every parent (or even the majority) volunteering.

 

My son also plays for an elite-level travel team that is based several states away. We pay for it, too, and it's FAR more expensive than the local league. It is managed by a for-profit corporation, and the coaches are paid. So I have experience with both volunteer-based and employee-based teams and how they each run.