S/o hotel room alone

[Farrar]

I do think the whole issue is our risk averse culture.  The idea that any time something goes wrong with kids, "an adult should have been there!"  The increasing array of safety gadgets for kids.  The recall of products that weren't necessarily dangerous.  The fear of leaving children alone ever.  To me, they're all tied together.

 

But that doesn't mean sometimes there shouldn't be more supervision or better quality safety items for kids or product recalls.  Because there absolutely should.  Car seats are good.  Recalls are usually good.  Teachers and coaches and parents being around is good.  It's just that there's a way in which, as a culture, we've been working on eliminating *all* risk all the time and it starts to extend sometimes from good things - like reasonable precautions such as bike helmets and cribs that don't get kids' heads caught in the bars - to things that are less clearly "good" like children who will never take public transit or are not allowed to be alone as older teens.  And that's not necessarily healthy.  I say that not because eliminating risk isn't a lovely idea.  It would be great if all our products and all situations could be safe.  But it's not possible.  We're setting ourselves up for anxiety and failure when we try to made everything completely safe.

 

I think those of us who are more on the free range end of things find ourselves feeling very defensive sometimes.  People who are very much on the other end throw around words like "neglect" and "murder" a lot.  I've seen people on message boards say horrible things like that someone's child deserves to be kidnapped or molested because the parents believe in leaving them alone for an hour or in the car while they pump the gas.  In the end, I think most of us are probably pretty reasonable.  Different limits, different ways to let kids explore freedom and learn from it, but all from places of love and support for our kids.

[Word Nerd]

I do think the whole issue is our risk averse culture.  The idea that any time something goes wrong with kids, "an adult should have been there!"  The increasing array of safety gadgets for kids.  The recall of products that weren't necessarily dangerous.  The fear of leaving children alone ever.  To me, they're all tied together.

 

 

Actually I think the "mindset of risk avoidance" is relevant to this thread.

 

:iagree:  It is relevant.

[ThisIsTheDay]

What a sad thing to brag about. Hopefully life never throws your family a curve ball.

 

 

Not nice.  And if her family were ever 'thrown a curve ball,' it sounds like the rest of the family is close enough to gather in and support each other in every way necessary. 

 

When I read Minniewannabe's post the first time, my initial thought was that they are from a culture outside of the U.S.  But what she says goes along with my earlier comments--there are many ways to parent and many ways to raise your kids.  It sounds like she's a very motivated and determined mom, and while I know everyone is out there (usually) doing the best they can, she's probably someone I could learn a lot from and be encouraged through.

[Catwoman]

What a sad thing to brag about. Hopefully life never throws your family a curve ball.

 

I didn't get the impression she was bragging, but that she was sharing her personal experiences. You may not agree with her way of doing things, but I think it is mean to call it "sad," particularly because it seems to be working very well for her family.

 

FWIW, plenty of perfectly well-adjusted people don't use mass transit or clean their own toilets because they can afford other options, so I'm not sure why riding the bus or the subway and having housecleaning skills are some sort of special marks of independence. It's not as though any reasonably intelligent person couldn't learn how to do those things at any age.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I didn't get the impression she was bragging, but that she was sharing her personal experiences. You may not agree with her way of doing things, but I think it is mean to call it "sad," particularly because it seems to be working very well for her family.

 

FWIW, plenty of perfectly well-adjusted people don't use mass transit or clean their own toilets because they can afford other options, so I'm not sure why riding the bus or the subway and having housecleaning skills are some sort of special marks of independence. It's not as though any reasonably intelligent person couldn't learn how to do those things at any age.

 

It was certainly bragging and quite sad.

[swellmomma]

and honestly, no minimum age worries me more-- it is left to the opinion of the caseworker-- that is scary.

the way it tends to work is no one cares about the age until something bad happens.  So if you leave your 8 year old home alone and nothing happens no one bats an eye.  You leave same 8 year old home alone and he stands on a chair to reach something, falls and bangs his head and requires stitches the dr's are likely to call in child services to investigate if the child is actually safe in the house. Hell one of the things used against me in my investigation was that I left the kids alone inside the house while I shovelled out the car and that is when ds15 (then 11) started a small fire by accident.  Fire department called CPS and one of the claims was children being left alone, because oldest was 11 and not 12 they declared he was "babysitting" which is illegal before age 12.  I was home, just shovelling and got in trouble for it. There is no specific age requirement for being left home alone, but if you leave more than 1 kid alone the oldest must be over the age of 12.

[bettyandbob]

the way it tends to work is no one cares about the age until something bad happens.  So if you leave your 8 year old home alone and nothing happens no one bats an eye.  You leave same 8 year old home alone and he stands on a chair to reach something, falls and bangs his head and requires stitches the dr's are likely to call in child services to investigate if the child is actually safe in the house. Hell one of the things used against me in my investigation was that I left the kids alone inside the house while I shovelled out the car and that is when ds15 (then 11) started a small fire by accident.  Fire department called CPS and one of the claims was children being left alone, because oldest was 11 and not 12 they declared he was "babysitting" which is illegal before age 12.  I was home, just shovelling and got in trouble for it. There is no specific age requirement for being left home alone, but if you leave more than 1 kid alone the oldest must be over the age of 12.

 

You were shoveling in front of your house? Now, that's just crazy. 

[Catwoman]

It was certainly bragging and quite sad.

I completely disagree about the bragging, and have no idea what is "sad" about it.

 

She might very well think that your methods of raising your children are "sad" or otherwise inferior to hers as well, but I would be willing to bet she wouldn't be so rude as to mock you for it.

 

I respect your right to disagree with what she does, but you didn't explain your reasoning at all. You were just mean.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I completely disagree about the bragging, and have no idea what is "sad" about it.

 

She might very well think that your methods of raising your children are "sad" or otherwise inferior to hers as well, but I would be willing to bet she wouldn't be so rude as to mock you for it.

 

I respect your right to disagree with what she does, but you didn't explain your reasoning at all. You were just mean.

 

I have no issue saying that being proud of your child never making a decision on their own before AGE 25 is extremely sad.  That type of thinking is way outside of the box for a reason and there really is no defense for it.  Based on her posts I am sure she would have issues with how my children have been raised and for that I am quite grateful.

[Catwoman]

I have no issue saying that being proud of your child never making a decision on their own before AGE 25 is extremely sad. That type of thinking is way outside of the box for a reason and there really is no defense for it. Based on her posts I am sure she would have issues with how my children have been raised and for that I am quite grateful.

OK, thanks -- now I understand what you meant.

 

I have to admit that I thought she was joking about the "no decisions of her own before she's 25 years old" thing, because she also said her dd was going to attend medical school and become a physician, so I assumed she meant that she would be supporting her dd financially until she finished school. I didn't think she meant her dd would have to ask permission to spend the weekend with friends (or whatever -- I don't have a great example off the top of my head.)

 

But I will definitely acknowledge that I might have been the one who misinterpreted her post and you might be the one who got it right. If her dd has to answer to her mom and ask permission for every little thing until she's 25, I would find that very odd, too.

 

So maybe we agree after all -- I really have no idea at this point -- but I will say that even if we disagree with her, I still think we should be respectful of her choices and her decisions for her own family. What's "sad" to you may be perfect for her family.

[Melissa in Australia]

Yep.  Actually, it was mostly just steering.   ;)  Trap would put it in 4WD granny low which idles along at about 2mph.   He walks faster than it would drive, so if a kid had trouble, he'd just jump out of the back and walk up to the driver's door and help out.  

It was so fun to go out later in the day and see the cows lined up along the hillside where they'd been fed.  The "line" jogged all over the place.  lol

 

The kids didn't actually put a vehicle in gear on their own and truly drive until about 8 though, because they didn't have the length of leg to push in the clutch...

 

Here WorkCover would have your hides. too many farm accidents when a minor has been driving, too many fathers killed

 A farm is a workplace and comes under WorkCover rules.

[Kalmia]

I am very interested in the rural/urban/suburban element of this discussion and in the comment by an earlier poster about there being a difference in whether or not we have "trust in our community."

 

Each place, rural, suburban and urban, has different cultural norms for childrearing. It is interesting to me that the place that has been designed very purposefully to be safe, the suburb, is the one where parents are encouraged to keep their kids dependent. Now, not all suburbanites buy into that culture, but it is enforced by the sense that in the suburbs, one of the first responses to seeing a child out walking alone or similar thing would be to call the authorities. In almost the perverse inverse of a parent living in a gang zone who cannot trust some neighbors with their child's safety; the suburban parents cannot trust that some of their neighbors will not second-guess their parenting decisions and instead of taking it up with them, or keeping an eye on the kid themselves, or finding out more information, will act in an "untrustworthy" manner by choosing to go directly to the authorities. 

 

In terms of pure responsibility, I read the posts of the farming homeschoolers here and sense that their lifestyle (while not for everyone) is one that produces independence. I am reminded of the point of the first chapter of Joe Salatin's book, Folks, This Ain't Normal. While I don't agree with everything Joel says, he certainly struck a bit of a chord in me. Joe Salatin, the unabashedly opinionated and funny owner of Polyface Farm, includes in his first chapter, "Children, Chores, Humility, and Health," a link between the rural, farming lifestyle and independence. You can read much of the chapter using the "Look Inside" feature on Amazon.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Folks-This-Aint-Normal-Healthier/dp/0892968192/ref=pd_sim_b_10

 

And yes, when we return to the US, we hope to get a small homestead with some arable land and a barn. My childhood offered to my suburban kids, a little late, but better than never.

[creekland]

But I will definitely acknowledge that I might have been the one who misinterpreted her post and you might be the one who got it right. If her dd has to answer to her mom and ask permission for every little thing until she's 25, I would find that very odd, too.

 

So maybe we agree after all -- I have no idea any more! :)

 

It's odd, and I'm fully not for it knowing that if I had made it to adulthood in that situation I sure wouldn't have been a happy camper mentally, but I also believe we have to live and let live understanding that our genetics and that of someone else are just plain different.

 

I have friends who literally never travel if they don't have to.  We're about as polar opposite in that regard as we can be.  I think they're nuts being content to see the Grand Canyon, ocean, or redwoods via pictures and video and they think we're nuts in that our house is VERY out of date, doesn't have a second bathroom (even when 5 of us lived here!), and we drive old cars.

 

And yet... we're still friends.  ;)  We're just wired differently and choose to make our choices accordingly.  Both of us live just fine in our worlds, but our kids have certainly experienced different lives growing up. 

 

I am very interested in the rural/urban/suburban element of this discussion and in the comment by an earlier poster about there being a difference in whether or not we have "trust in our community."

 

Each place, rural, suburban and urban, has different cultural norms for childrearing. It is interesting to me that the place that has been designed very purposefully to be safe, the suburb, is the one where parents are encouraged to keep their kids dependent. Now, not all suburbanites buy into that culture, but it is enforced by the sense that in the suburbs, one of the first responses to seeing a child out walking alone or similar thing would be to call the authorities. In almost the perverse inverse of a parent living in a gang zone who cannot trust some neighbors with their child's safety; the suburban parents cannot trust that some of their neighbors will not second-guess their parenting decisions and instead of taking it up with them, or keeping an eye on the kid themselves, or finding out more information, will act in an "untrustworthy" manner by choosing to go directly to the authorities. 

 

In terms of pure responsibility, I read the posts of the farming homeschoolers here and sense that their lifestyle (while not for everyone) is one that produces independence. I am reminded of the point of the first chapter of Joe Salatin's book, Folks, This Ain't Normal. While I don't agree with everything Joel says, he certainly struck a bit of a chord in me. Joe Salatin, the unabashedly opinionated and funny owner of Polyface Farm, includes in his first chapter, "Children, Chores, Humility, and Health," a link between the rural, farming lifestyle and independence. You can read much of the chapter using the "Look Inside" feature on Amazon.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Folks-This-Aint-Normal-Healthier/dp/0892968192/ref=pd_sim_b_10

 

And yes, when we return to the US, we hope to get a small homestead with some arable land and a barn. My childhood offered to my suburban kids, a little late, but better than never.

 

Rural is incredibly different.  Some love it.  Some hate it.  (We're in the love category.)

 

Everyone will know you.  If something goes right with your family, everyone will know.  If something goes wrong, everyone will know.  How much you own/make/spend is also relatively known.  And you will know the same about others.  It won't matter how much time you actually spend with others... the grapevine just shares everything.  People spend time talking pretty much everywhere unless it happens to be busy or one is in a hurry (even that latter one may have to vary).  We share things - more than the weather.  We share life - good, bad, and ugly.  Others might call it gossip.  We truly think it's life as life comes.

 

If you are ok with this, you'll fit in fine.  If you bring a suburban/city attitude and expect to get that in a rural area you'll hate it.

 

In rural areas jobs aren't done first come, first served.  They're done for friends first, so it's helpful to be friends with almost everyone.  Anyone calling to "hurry up their job" thinking the squeaky wheel will get the grease will find the squeaky wheel can also be replaced.  ;)  If you want to get your job moved up on the list, call to chat... and somewhere in that chat casually mention how much you need something done.  If you have an issue with a neighbor, a friendly chat will get you a LOT farther than trying anything legal.  Trying something legal will only get you on a black list...

 

In rural areas, community is king.  There was once a stranger whose car broke down... and I know a guy who said, "Here - take my truck, go a few miles down that road until you see a white house on a corner, turn left, go two houses down and see _____.  He will help you out.  I can't go with you right now."  The stranger practically fell over backward... - "Take your truck???"  Well, yeah, that's how the country can work...  He brought the truck back and all worked out well.  ;)

 

When major issues come up - say - health issues, expect the community to REALLY care.  For some this could be rattling.  For those of us who love it, it makes us know we're "home" and never want to leave.

 

But do realize... the farmstead you buy won't really be yours.  It will belong to whoever owned it several years ago, then sold it to ___, then to ____, then to you.  We've been here for 18 years, but our place isn't "ours."  It's the ____ place.  ;)

 

If you want privacy about your life, suburbs or cities are better.  If you want immersement into community, rural reigns (to us).  It was no surprise to me to read any of the rural stories related on here - including the toddler who wandered off being put down for a nap.  Why call the authorities?  It was just a kid being a kid.

 

As with anything else, different strokes for different folks.

[Catwoman]

I am very interested in the rural/urban/suburban element of this discussion and in the comment by an earlier poster about there being a difference in whether or not we have "trust in our community."

 

Each place, rural, suburban and urban, has different cultural norms for childrearing. It is interesting to me that the place that has been designed very purposefully to be safe, the suburb, is the one where parents are encouraged to keep their kids dependent. Now, not all suburbanites buy into that culture, but it is enforced by the sense that in the suburbs, one of the first responses to seeing a child out walking alone or similar thing would be to call the authorities. In almost the perverse inverse of a parent living in a gang zone who cannot trust some neighbors with their child's safety; the suburban parents cannot trust that some of their neighbors will not second-guess their parenting decisions and instead of taking it up with them, or keeping an eye on the kid themselves, or finding out more information, will act in an "untrustworthy" manner by choosing to go directly to the authorities.

Other than on this forum, I don't know a single suburban parent who is even slightly concerned that their neighbors will report them to the authorities. Not one. It's not even on their radar.

 

And even on this forum, the only times I recall people having said they would call the police about a wandering child was when the kid was a preschooler and they were concerned that the child would be injured on a busy street or something like that.

[FaithManor]

Creekland, I completely agree with you about rural life. One of the reasons that CPS just does not care about free ranging here is that if they did, they'd have to investigate every single family in the county just about. Kids drive four wheelers to haul a bucket of grain to some spot in the back field by the time they are 6 or 7, tractors and pick up trucks as soon as they are tall enough to reach the pedals. They learn how to use tools that to other people would seem dangerous, but at very tender ages. It's exceptionally rare that we have a significant accident in this community. The parents of these kids know how to teach safety.

 

When youngest was born, members of the community took turns bringing meals and what not. The neighbors did nice things for DH so he could just think about me and the new baby. At the same time, we hadn't been home more than 36 hrs. before pretty much all of the women in a one mile square knew the details of his birth!

 

When Millie's house across the street was on fire, the men didn't hesitate to get in there knowing that we are 15 minutes from the nearest fire station. They made sure she was out, and when the fire department came, there were 20 garden houses out there spraying down the trees, bushes, lawn etc. to create a fire break. The brush fire that got out of control west of town was out before the volunteer fire department could be scrambled because every man and teen boy hooked up their plow to their tractors and started turning smoldering earth under, women started hauling five gallon buckets of water with their pick up trucks to fill the fire breaks the men made. It was entirely contained and then began burning out so they could begin smothering it with dirt. The fire department was dumbfounded at how fast everyone moved. When the veteran's house behind us burned, the only reason it didn't spread to the neighbor's house, given the very, very slow response time that night, was we all got out there with our 300 ft. of garden house, hooked up and started spraying fire breaks again, soaking the house that sat next to it. The gentleman that had a heart attack and his wife has breast cancer - dh, our three teen boys, and 30 other men assembled at his woodlot, cut all of his wood - they only have wood for winter heating in their very old farmhouse - split it, stacked it, filled the lean to - and every week someone goes back to check on them and fill the lean to again.

 

If you need groceries, someone will come.

 

But, you do pay a price. For us, sometimes having everyone know your business can get a little old when you'd really like to keep something private, we have to drive over an hour away to get to any cultural events, the schools think sports is everything, the parents are rather anti-education - at least many of them - due to this being the area where all the dads worked at the car factories or parts factories and many quit high school to take those jobs so having a high school education much less post high school training was seen as "superfluous", or inherited the family farm and usually after all the debt had been paid off by the previous generation. So, DH and I and our college bound science kids are anomalies, and I think sometimes looked like as though we are aliens from Mars. The schools really do reflect the attitude of the community, so be careful that if you decide rural life is for you that you pick a rural community that has still invested heavily in the idea of education or in our case, actually thinks that firing teachers and raising the sports budget is NOT a wise idea.

 

For us, the access to cheap, but organic food is wonderful, and well, we are where we are now because we have some elderly relatives to watch over and they can't afford to move at the present time.

 

It is different living. Not bad, just different. We get along pretty well with it. Okay, other than my constant battle with the school board over why education is actually important and they why they should ACT like it is!! I am not well liked by the superintendent, high school principal, or the school board.

[Catwoman]

It's odd, and I'm fully not for it knowing that if I had made it to adulthood in that situation I sure wouldn't have been a happy camper mentally, but I also believe we have to live and let live understanding that our genetics and that of someone else are just plain different.

:iagree:

 

I think it's also very easy to judge someone else's choices based on how our own kids would react to a certain kind of upbringing, without remembering that every child is different, and that the best decisions for our own children may be entirely different from what works for another kid in a different family. One child may be confident and independent from an early age, while another may tend to be cautious and need to take baby steps toward making their own decisions and doing things on their own.

 

I truly believe that most of the time, it doesn't matter in the end, because most people grow up to be functioning adults who are able to walk to the store by themselves, travel from one place to another, get an education, and make their own life decisions.

[Tmhearn]

This thread, like many others on this board, has definitely been an eye-opener for me about how other people live. :-)

 

I'm kind of confused by all of this focus on letting kids stay home alone, kids driving cars and farm equipment, etc. But, I guess it has to do with what you are actually preparing your child for in life. If your kid is gonna grow up and drive farm equipment, then I guess it's good for them to start learning about it while they are young. I'm pretty sure it's completely irrelevant in my kid's life.

 

What is relevant for my kid is street-smarts. And that is what becoming independent means to me. Knowing how to navigate people in this world. I think my kids need help with that while they are living in my house, so they can be prepared when they are older. I'm not worried about my kid being kidnapped by a stranger or murdered by a stranger. I am worried about them (my boys and girls) being molested by someone they know. Unfortunately, this is a reality for a lot of people I know and have known. If they are street-smart about dealing with people, they will have a better chance of knowing how to deal with this situation if it comes up.

 

Also, I get the concern about navigating airports, mass transit, etc. But, again, I see that as needing street-smarts to protect yourself more than the actual ability to read a map??? I want my kid to be able to be aware of their surroundings, know when to recognize someone trying to scam them, know how to converse with a stranger who seems sketchy, etc. They will learn those skills through watching me interact with people.

 

I will be honest here, I grew up in New Orleans. It's not exactly the family-friendly capital of the world. So, of course, my world is colored by that fact. I also have had my fair share of encounters with sketchy, unpleasant people, criminals, etc. That's not everyone's experience on here. And frankly, I'm kind of jealous of you for that. But, yes, for some people, the world is not the shiny, happy place it is for many others.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Other than on this forum, I don't know a single suburban parent who is even slightly concerned that their neighbors will report them to the authorities. Not one. It's not even on their radar.

 

 

Agreed, but the CPS boogeyman is perfect for some of the paranoia that pops up on this board.

 

[Joanne]

I can't comment from a rural/urban standpoint - at least from an informed standpoint. But I do want to make the distinction between "free range" and lack of intentional parenting. It strikes me as similar to what unschooling IS vs what people think it is.

 

Allowing kids to do "whatever" without intentional support, coaching, teaching and training (referring to 70's parenting) isn't the same as my understanding of free range.

 

I believe in prepared autonomy and parent with intentionality in that regard. That includes cooking, cleaning, finances, friendships, romance, transportation, travel, etc. I teach and then tend to be "hands off" or in a consulting role.

 

I don't consider myself free range but I do tend to be critical of helicopter parenting.

[MBM]

Other than on this forum, I don't know a single suburban parent who is even slightly concerned that their neighbors will report them to the authorities. Not one. It's not even on their radar.

 

And even on this forum, the only times I recall people having said they would call the police about a wandering child was when the kid was a preschooler and they were concerned that the child would be injured on a busy street or something like that.

 

Two of my neighbors across the street will not hesitate to call CPS if they think a tween is home alone while the parents run a short errand. One of them is a busybody and the other is a family doctor. They're both jerks.

 

My husband and I were walking at a nearby park that is situated adjacent to the doctor's back yard. He and his wife were walking their dog and confronted us, asking where our son was (who was 12). They asked in an accusatory way, not a nice way. As it turns out, our son was literally 30 feet in front of us playing with a ball. So, yeah. It happens. (Royally pissed me off especially since I would fall in the overprotective category.)

 

The legal age to leave a child home in Illinois is 14 and the law is very wishy-washy. I even asked our police what the age was to leave my son home alone and they said they didn't know.

[Χά�ων]

The schools where I live are very sports centered. I will say that I am thrilled that our community demands that every child be able to read and there is a level of expectations, it is just not the same as mine. The schools did some international testing they averaged out at 56% and was among the highest taking that test in our state. But there is no pressure to produce high school graduates who will go straight into a 4 year university. I disagree with that mindset.

 

But, you do pay a price. For us, sometimes having everyone know your business can get a little old when you'd really like to keep something private, we have to drive over an hour away to get to any cultural events, the schools think sports is everything, the parents are rather anti-education - at least many of them - due to this being the area where all the dads worked at the car factories or parts factories and many quit high school to take those jobs so having a high school education much less post high school training was seen as "superfluous", or inherited the family farm and usually after all the debt had been paid off by the previous generation. So, DH and I and our college bound science kids are anomalies, and I think sometimes looked like as though we are aliens from Mars. The schools really do reflect the attitude of the community, so be careful that if you decide rural life is for you that you pick a rural community that has still invested heavily in the idea of education or in our case, actually thinks that firing teachers and raising the sports budget is NOT a wise idea.

 

For us, the access to cheap, but organic food is wonderful, and well, we are where we are now because we have some elderly relatives to watch over and they can't afford to move at the present time.

 

It is different living. Not bad, just different. We get along pretty well with it. Okay, other than my constant battle with the school board over why education is actually important and they why they should ACT like it is!! I am not well liked by the superintendent, high school principal, or the school board.

 

[KungFuPanda]

I am very interested in the rural/urban/suburban element of this discussion and in the comment by an earlier poster about there being a difference in whether or not we have "trust in our community."

 

Each place, rural, suburban and urban, has different cultural norms for childrearing. It is interesting to me that the place that has been designed very purposefully to be safe, the suburb, is the one where parents are encouraged to keep their kids dependent. Now, not all suburbanites buy into that culture, but it is enforced by the sense that in the suburbs, one of the first responses to seeing a child out walking alone or similar thing would be to call the authorities. In almost the perverse inverse of a parent living in a gang zone who cannot trust some neighbors with their child's safety; the suburban parents cannot trust that some of their neighbors will not second-guess their parenting decisions and instead of taking it up with them, or keeping an eye on the kid themselves, or finding out more information, will act in an "untrustworthy" manner by choosing to go directly to the authorities.

 

In terms of pure responsibility, I read the posts of the farming homeschoolers here and sense that their lifestyle (while not for everyone) is one that produces independence. I am reminded of the point of the first chapter of Joe Salatin's book, Folks, This Ain't Normal. While I don't agree with everything Joel says, he certainly struck a bit of a chord in me. Joe Salatin, the unabashedly opinionated and funny owner of Polyface Farm, includes in his first chapter, "Children, Chores, Humility, and Health," a link between the rural, farming lifestyle and independence. You can read much of the chapter using the "Look Inside" feature on Amazon.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Folks-This-Aint-Normal-Healthier/dp/0892968192/ref=pd_sim_b_10

 

And yes, when we return to the US, we hope to get a small homestead with some arable land and a barn. My childhood offered to my suburban kids, a little late, but better than never.

I have to admit that I was taken off guard by the pity this thread has given the poor, unprepared suburban kids. I grew up rurally, so I get that responsibility and chores can breed a level of confidence. However, what the suburban kids lack in opportunities to work the land, they make up for in academic opportunities. They're brought up in a community that values education, expects high-school graduation, and demands that they be college-ready whether they go to college or not. I think they ARE well prepared for university life that demands academic rigor, basic life and housekeeping skills, and an ability to cope with a diverse population. Volunteer jobs and extracurriculars will always look better on a transcript than "mucking stalls at age 4." I have trouble believing that suburban kids will have trouble coping in college when they've put so much time and effort into preparing for it.

 

I grew up rurally, and don't have any inner-city living experience, but it's my observation that those cultures are much less academically driven than most suburbs. It's certainly celebrated when kids graduate high school and go to college, but it doesn't seem expected that the overwhelming majority will do so. I was a country kid, so I get the differences in lifestyle, but all of my experience with physical labor at a young age didn't really translate to an edge in college. Maybe if I were cutting up my daughter's food for her at seventeen she'd be emotionally stunted, but I have a hard time believing she's disadvantaged because she hasn't logged a single hour stacking firewood.

 

ETA: FWIW, I've only seen unattended preschoolers roaming the neighborhood once. I didn't call the cops. I took their hands and walked around until I found their parents. Dad was mowing during their nap and they'd woken up and snuck away. Elementary kids roam in packs all the time and nobody would report them for biking without supervision.

[Χά�ων]

I have to admit that I was taken off guard by the pity this thread has given the poor, unprepared suburban kids. I grew up rurally, so I get that responsibility and chores can breed a level of confidence. However, what the suburban kids lack in opportunities to work the land, they make up for in academic opportunities. They're brought up in a community that values education, expects high-school graduation, and demands that they be college-ready whether they go to college or not. I think they ARE well prepared for university life that demands academic rigor, basic life and housekeeping skills, and an ability to cope with a diverse population. Volunteer jobs and extracurriculars will always look better on a transcript than "mucking stalls at age 4." I have trouble believing that suburban kids will have trouble coping in college when they've put so much time and effort into preparing for it.

 

I grew up rurally, and don't have any inner-city living experience, but it's my observation that those cultures are much less academically driven than most suburbs. It's certainly celebrated when kids graduate high school and go to college, but it doesn't seem expected that the overwhelming majority will do so. I was a country kid, so I get the differences in lifestyle, but all of my experience with physical labor at a young age didn't really translate to an edge in college. Maybe if I were cutting up my daughter's food for her at seventeen she'd be emotionally stunted, but I have a hard time believing she's disadvantaged because she hasn't logged a single hour stacking firewood.

 

ETA: FWIW, I've only seen unattended preschoolers roaming the neighborhood once. I didn't call the cops. I took their hands and walked around until I found their parents. Dad was mowing during their nap and they'd woken up and snuck away. Elementary kids roam in packs all the time and nobody would report them for biking without supervision.

I grew up in the suburbs, this was not my educational experience. In fact 47% of the graduating class had to take remedial classes at the community college because they were unprepared

[Erin]

Here WorkCover would have your hides. too many farm accidents when a minor has been driving, too many fathers killed

 A farm is a workplace and comes under WorkCover rules.

Thank goodness we're still allowed to have common sense, here!   :)

[creekland]

Creekland, I completely agree with you about rural life. One of the reasons that CPS just does not care about free ranging here is that if they did, they'd have to investigate every single family in the county just about. Kids drive four wheelers to haul a bucket of grain to some spot in the back field by the time they are 6 or 7, tractors and pick up trucks as soon as they are tall enough to reach the pedals. They learn how to use tools that to other people would seem dangerous, but at very tender ages. It's exceptionally rare that we have a significant accident in this community. The parents of these kids know how to teach safety.

 

When youngest was born, members of the community took turns bringing meals and what not. The neighbors did nice things for DH so he could just think about me and the new baby. At the same time, we hadn't been home more than 36 hrs. before pretty much all of the women in a one mile square knew the details of his birth!

 

When Millie's house across the street was on fire, the men didn't hesitate to get in there knowing that we are 15 minutes from the nearest fire station. They made sure she was out, and when the fire department came, there were 20 garden houses out there spraying down the trees, bushes, lawn etc. to create a fire break. The brush fire that got out of control west of town was out before the volunteer fire department could be scrambled because every man and teen boy hooked up their plow to their tractors and started turning smoldering earth under, women started hauling five gallon buckets of water with their pick up trucks to fill the fire breaks the men made. It was entirely contained and then began burning out so they could begin smothering it with dirt. The fire department was dumbfounded at how fast everyone moved. When the veteran's house behind us burned, the only reason it didn't spread to the neighbor's house, given the very, very slow response time that night, was we all got out there with our 300 ft. of garden house, hooked up and started spraying fire breaks again, soaking the house that sat next to it. The gentleman that had a heart attack and his wife has breast cancer - dh, our three teen boys, and 30 other men assembled at his woodlot, cut all of his wood - they only have wood for winter heating in their very old farmhouse - split it, stacked it, filled the lean to - and every week someone goes back to check on them and fill the lean to again.

 

If you need groceries, someone will come.

 

But, you do pay a price. For us, sometimes having everyone know your business can get a little old when you'd really like to keep something private, we have to drive over an hour away to get to any cultural events, the schools think sports is everything, the parents are rather anti-education - at least many of them - due to this being the area where all the dads worked at the car factories or parts factories and many quit high school to take those jobs so having a high school education much less post high school training was seen as "superfluous", or inherited the family farm and usually after all the debt had been paid off by the previous generation. So, DH and I and our college bound science kids are anomalies, and I think sometimes looked like as though we are aliens from Mars. The schools really do reflect the attitude of the community, so be careful that if you decide rural life is for you that you pick a rural community that has still invested heavily in the idea of education or in our case, actually thinks that firing teachers and raising the sports budget is NOT a wise idea.

 

For us, the access to cheap, but organic food is wonderful, and well, we are where we are now because we have some elderly relatives to watch over and they can't afford to move at the present time.

 

It is different living. Not bad, just different. We get along pretty well with it. Okay, other than my constant battle with the school board over why education is actually important and they why they should ACT like it is!! I am not well liked by the superintendent, high school principal, or the school board.

 

Definitely the same sort of place!  We're seen as oddities that we care about academics, but people still accept us as we are.  There are many oddities in rural living - some far extremes actually - but as long as everyone "gets" the atmosphere and pitches in, I've never seen anyone who wasn't welcome as they are.  Those who get "shunned" are those who want to move suburban/city ways of doing thing here and make it known.  Caring about academics is actually a plus for hubby - an engineer - since that's seen a field where one needs academic knowledge in addition to "country" common sense.  If he were to ever show up in a suit for any particular job it would be a big no-no though.

 

I grew up rurally, and don't have any inner-city living experience, but it's my observation that those cultures are much less academically driven than most suburbs. It's certainly celebrated when kids graduate high school and go to college, but it doesn't seem expected that the overwhelming majority will do so. I was a country kid, so I get the differences in lifestyle, but all of my experience with physical labor at a young age didn't really translate to an edge in college. Maybe if I were cutting up my daughter's food for her at seventeen she'd be emotionally stunted, but I have a hard time believing she's disadvantaged because she hasn't logged a single hour stacking firewood.

 

 

I agree with you on this too.  Suburbs definitely do tend to have an emphasis on education and their kids do well with what they are designed for in that aspect.  The higher level of academic education is one thing we miss in our rural community, but in the end, we choose rural rather than suburb for our personal preferences for life - with no regrets - BUT doing what we can for getting our boys the educational opportunities we wanted them to have.

 

FWIW... it seems having a rural zip code is a nice hook for getting into some top colleges IF you have the stats and ECs.  It's rare that we have a student getting those stats at school, but those who have done it have had some super offers from many places.

[Erin]

If your kid is gonna grow up and drive farm equipment, then I guess it's good for them to start learning about it while they are young.

Actually, I'd venture to guess most kids who grow up driving farm equipment don't continue on into adulthood.  And as parents, we realize this.  

 

Buck's hero, Neil, is a late-20s guy who grew up on his folks' farm but is now a petroleum engineer.  He's also a generic all-around "good kid."  He still chores for his folks when he's home, but it really has nothing to do with his actual profession or adult life.  

The bigger lessons were responsibility and reliability.  Doing things that have to be done, even if you don't want to, because others are counting on you.  And so on.  

This is a different category, in my mind, than learning how to get oneself through the subway system...

 

 

 

And helping get harvest in, getting hay up before the rain hits, or pregging mama cows on a -10º day, are simply not chores on par with helping empty the dishwasher or raking the leaves...

[creekland]

Actually, I'd venture to guess most kids who grow up driving farm equipment don't continue on into adulthood.  And as parents, we realize this.  

 

 

Some farm kids I know IRL do take on the farm afterward.  Others have become police officers, engineers, teachers, accountants, diesel mechanics, truck drivers, store owners, chefs, and oodles of other things across the board.

 

The one thing in common is when they come "home" they always pitch in with those farm chores if they are able.  ;)

 

Once in a while we even get someone who wasn't a farm kid who comes and starts farming - usually more niche farming, but still...

 

[swellmomma]

It's odd, and I'm fully not for it knowing that if I had made it to adulthood in that situation I sure wouldn't have been a happy camper mentally, but I also believe we have to live and let live understanding that our genetics and that of someone else are just plain different.

 

I have friends who literally never travel if they don't have to.  We're about as polar opposite in that regard as we can be.  I think they're nuts being content to see the Grand Canyon, ocean, or redwoods via pictures and video and they think we're nuts in that our house is VERY out of date, doesn't have a second bathroom (even when 5 of us lived here!), and we drive old cars.

 

And yet... we're still friends.  ;)  We're just wired differently and choose to make our choices accordingly.  Both of us live just fine in our worlds, but our kids have certainly experienced different lives growing up. 

 

 

Rural is incredibly different.  Some love it.  Some hate it.  (We're in the love category.)

 

Everyone will know you.  If something goes right with your family, everyone will know.  If something goes wrong, everyone will know.  How much you own/make/spend is also relatively known.  And you will know the same about others.  It won't matter how much time you actually spend with others... the grapevine just shares everything.  People spend time talking pretty much everywhere unless it happens to be busy or one is in a hurry (even that latter one may have to vary).  We share things - more than the weather.  We share life - good, bad, and ugly.  Others might call it gossip.  We truly think it's life as life comes.

 

If you are ok with this, you'll fit in fine.  If you bring a suburban/city attitude and expect to get that in a rural area you'll hate it.

 

In rural areas jobs aren't done first come, first served.  They're done for friends first, so it's helpful to be friends with almost everyone.  Anyone calling to "hurry up their job" thinking the squeaky wheel will get the grease will find the squeaky wheel can also be replaced.  ;)  If you want to get your job moved up on the list, call to chat... and somewhere in that chat casually mention how much you need something done.  If you have an issue with a neighbor, a friendly chat will get you a LOT farther than trying anything legal.  Trying something legal will only get you on a black list...

 

In rural areas, community is king.  There was once a stranger whose car broke down... and I know a guy who said, "Here - take my truck, go a few miles down that road until you see a white house on a corner, turn left, go two houses down and see _____.  He will help you out.  I can't go with you right now."  The stranger practically fell over backward... - "Take your truck???"  Well, yeah, that's how the country can work...  He brought the truck back and all worked out well.  ;)

 

When major issues come up - say - health issues, expect the community to REALLY care.  For some this could be rattling.  For those of us who love it, it makes us know we're "home" and never want to leave.

 

But do realize... the farmstead you buy won't really be yours.  It will belong to whoever owned it several years ago, then sold it to ___, then to ____, then to you.  We've been here for 18 years, but our place isn't "ours."  It's the ____ place.  ;)

 

If you want privacy about your life, suburbs or cities are better.  If you want immersement into community, rural reigns (to us).  It was no surprise to me to read any of the rural stories related on here - including the toddler who wandered off being put down for a nap.  Why call the authorities?  It was just a kid being a kid.

 

As with anything else, different strokes for different folks.

 

Your rural town sounds much nicer than my rural town.  If your momma, gramma, great gramma etc didn't grow up here, you are an outsider even if you have lived here for years.  You are not to be accepted. Out here if your kid does something stupid(like throw a snow ball at someone) then the police and CPS are typically called on you after they show up on your doorstep screaming and ranting at you about running you out of town etc.

[Laura Corin]

 But I do want to make the distinction between "free range" and lack of intentional parenting. It strikes me as similar to what unschooling IS vs what people think it is.

 

 

Yes.  I was previously accused on this board of not caring where my children were (or words to that effect).  On the contrary - I care very much where they are, and that includes exploring the woods on their own, or travelling alone on a train to a university open day.  For me, those are places where I intend for them to be and that fit into my idea of a healthy upbringing.

 

L

[Jean in Newcastle]

I live in the "small town in the big city" - ie. we're a small suburban town in what is really part of a larger metropolitan area.  But for those of us who are actually involved in our small town, it is a very friendly place.  My kids have been free range to a certain extent for years because they could knock on any door in our neighborhood and would know the person who answered the door by name.  They've been taught not to go into the houses but they would be safe asking for someone to contact 9-1-1 for them or to contact me for help.  We had the same thing at our very small local mall.  We walked there daily and knew all the store owners.  Often they would insist we take the employee discount when we would shop there!  We felt safe letting our kids range free at the mall when they were small because all shop owners knew they belonged to us and would have spoken up if a stranger had tried to leave with them.  (We still kept them within sight most of the time though and taught them to never go into a private area even with someone we were friendly with.)   At one point I had the keys to 5 houses on our street in case of emergency.  (One of them had my keys).  Yesterday I was leaving the grocery store and a neighbor grabbed my arm and asked me to take her home with her groceries because she had walked to the store and then realized that she had bought too much to carry home.  Sometimes it takes me back when a "stranger" will come up to me at the library and will say "you haven't been on your daily walk in awhile.  What happened?" but overall, I like the community feeling that we have here.  

 

Anyway - for the purposes of this thread, I find that knowing people is helpful and provides a bit of protection from the "village".  But we also were very careful to teach our kids to never go alone into a  house or a back room even with friends.  This is the same now at the Y, where we again are part of a community.  The community provides a protection of numbers only if you are out in the open with the community.  

[msrift]

Other than on this forum, I don't know a single suburban parent who is even slightly concerned that their neighbors will report them to the authorities. Not one. It's not even on their radar.

 

And even on this forum, the only times I recall people having said they would call the police about a wandering child was when the kid was a preschooler and they were concerned that the child would be injured on a busy street or something like that.

 

The examples in my world often include police officers, not necessarily CPS, though both could be lumped together as legal entities. Fear of legal involvement wouldn't have been on my radar either until I started hearing more and more instances like these from people in our very safe, suburban neighborhoods. 

 

Instance #1: Two siblings, ages 10 and 12, are playing together at a neighborhood park (about 5 blocks away from home) in the afternoon on a non-school day. Police officers from neighboring suburb (boundary is the other side of the neighborhood) stop and approach the children. Tell them they shouldn't be out unsupervised and tell them to get in the car and they'd take them home. Kids have been taught not to get into anyone's vehicle, tell the police officers where they live and that the officers can go talk to their mother. When officers arrive, mother informs officers her children have permission to be at the park. Police officers start to argue with her, but by this time the kids have come home of their own accord and officers decide to leave.

 

Instance #2: Mother takes her 2yr old twins to the fenced school track. Deposits the toddlers with their toys in the sandy area (for the long jump located in the middle of the track), and proceeds to jog around the track. Again, police officers driving by stop. As the police officers approach the twins, the mother jogs over to meet them. Police officers berate mother for being neglectful and that they should take the children away from her right then and there. Mother is so scared she has declared she will not have kids out of her eyesight until they are 18. 

 

Stories like this scare me. I don't like that it has impacted the way we parent, but I know without a doubt that I want absolutely no involvement with the legal system.

[creekland]

Your rural town sounds much nicer than my rural town.  If your momma, gramma, great gramma etc didn't grow up here, you are an outsider even if you have lived here for years.  You are not to be accepted. Out here if your kid does something stupid(like throw a snow ball at someone) then the police and CPS are typically called on you after they show up on your doorstep screaming and ranting at you about running you out of town etc.

 

Definitely not the same.  We have no relatives here - nada - zip.  We moved into the area as complete strangers, but quickly met friends and are accepted as having been here for years.  We just don't have all the relatives around that most around here have.  Many ARE related to pretty much everyone else... and I don't even pretend to have all the connections memorized.

 

BUT, people know that's one of our "oddities" and make up for it when needed.  We've been able to travel and have our farm taken care of at no cost to us (and we traveled for months some times).  In the old days when we were making our own hay and it looked like we wouldn't get it in before it rained, others came over with their tractors and/or bodies to help.  When we needed to put up a fence super last minute due to getting our stallion (male "daddy" pony) in more quickly than expected we had oodles of help (all at no cost unless you count the pizza afterward).

 

We do our share too.  I tutor kids whenever needed (for free).  Hubby has helped neighbors with farm projects and with "down" computers.  We house sit and critter sit including fixing fence when critters escape and the owners aren't around - even if just out for the day.  Anyone knows they can call on anyone at any time - for pretty much anything.  We even dropped everything to deliver pies to a bake sale once - and we weren't connected to the sale.

 

With my latest brain tumor issues we could have our whole place being taken care of many times over if we ever needed it.  When I tried to put off "stuff" blaming needing to be here for youngest, we had oodles of offers from folks to take him in or watch over him here.  I can't count the offers of financial help in case we needed it - or meals - or, well, anything.  Co-workers have offered to take time off work to be with me if I need it.  Even hubby's clients who SHOULDN'T know about it (due to no close contacts) do, and are sure to let him know he can vary his work as needed schedule-wise.  The grapevine works that well (for better or worse depending upon how you look at it).  We often try to connect the dots to figure out how people find out, but usually give up.  When I returned to school after finding out the news "for sure" the one thing I thought I wanted was to keep the news from the kids... but the first kid I met put his arm around me and gave me a hug.  We scrambled after that to make sure friends knew (from us) rather than learning from the grapevine.  You literally CAN'T stop news in rural areas, so it's important to know all of this in case anyone considers moving to one.

 

And again, we've made meals for people and helped out by watching houses/critters, etc, when they've had medical issue too.  Sooner or later something happens to everyone.

 

The lifestyle is different and people tend to either love it or hate it.  We happen to love it. 

 

What one can't do is "change" it.  That's an auto "won't fit in."  It's too bad that in your area people aren't more receptive to those outside their bloodlines... as that's a "change" you simply can't "fix" for them.  It's definitely not like that everywhere rural, but I can understand where it could be in some places.  We vetted the area we moved into pretty carefully before we moved here to be sure we felt we'd be accepted.

[Catwoman]

The examples in my world often include police officers, not necessarily CPS, though both could be lumped together as legal entities. Fear of legal involvement wouldn't have been on my radar either until I started hearing more and more instances like these from people in our very safe, suburban neighborhoods.

Instance #1: Two siblings, ages 10 and 12, are playing together at a neighborhood park (about 5 blocks away from home) in the afternoon on a non-school day. Police officers from neighboring suburb (boundary is the other side of the neighborhood) stop and approach the children. Tell them they shouldn't be out unsupervised and tell them to get in the car and they'd take them home. Kids have been taught not to get into anyone's vehicle, tell the police officers where they live and that the officers can go talk to their mother. When officers arrive, mother informs officers her children have permission to be at the park. Police officers start to argue with her, but by this time the kids have come home of their own accord and officers decide to leave.

Instance #2: Mother takes her 2yr old twins to the fenced school track. Deposits the toddlers with their toys in the sandy area (for the long jump located in the middle of the track), and proceeds to jog around the track. Again, police officers driving by stop. As the police officers approach the twins, the mother jogs over to meet them. Police officers berate mother for being neglectful and that they should take the children away from her right then and there. Mother is so scared she has declared she will not have kids out of her eyesight until they are 18.

Stories like this scare me. I don't like that it has impacted the way we parent, but I know without a doubt that I want absolutely no involvement with the legal system.

Honestly, those stories sound like nothing more than concerned police doing their jobs. No one was threatened, arrested or reported.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Creek, I think one can make those sorts of communities anywhere.  In my suburban city we've traded off  house/pet sitting.  We had neighbors and their friends over for Christmas when a tree fell on their roof.  We've taken people to doctor's appointments.  I took care of one neighbor's toddler while she miscarried.  And neighbors have take care of me when I've had a flat tire, when my leg went through our back deck and got stuck, when my dd locked herself into an upstairs room while a toddler. . .   As to the person who mentioned the police as scary people, we've gotten to know our local police at neighborhood bbq's and community meetings.  The police come to those sorts of things in order to get to know us and so that they can know the real dynamics of a neighborhood.  Knowing your community leaders and helpers makes a difference.  

[SKL]

I was urban until almost 13, then rural.  Free range looks different in both places, but it isn't a stranger to either.  Free range in the city meant we walked ourselves or took a city bus (sans supervision) to almost every place we wanted or needed to go.  School, library, park, pool, whatever.  It meant we developed our own creepdar and learned how to take precautions against crimes (e.g., lock the front and rear wheel of the bike, carry money a certain way, make sure you always have a means of egress should a gang attack, etc.) rather than hide at home and never go out.  It meant making friends out of strangers multiple times per day.  Rural free ranging has been described by various folks above.  In both cases, it included being "latch key" kids, babysitting younger siblings, and doing a lot of self-care and chores that some parents view as too difficult/dangerous for the age.

[SKL]

I haven't figured out what suburban free-ranging looks like yet.  :)

[Farrar]

All the rural/urban/suburban/small town talk is interesting to me.  I've lived, at various points, in all of them (I grew up in the middle of nowhere and then in the suburbs as a teen, attended college in a small town), but only as an adult in places I would call urban areas (inner city, downtown of a small city, and close in old suburb - all high density population areas).

 

My small impression is that it's hard to generalize.  I'm sure that if there was a big, giant numbers study done, there would be patterns that would emerge.  But like so many things, they would be general patterns, not applicable to everyone's experience of individual communities by any stretch.

 

The city neighborhood where I live now is an odd place and we've been here for 12 years now - a time of huge turmoil and turnover for the neighborhood.  The demographics and retail changed so fast that there's not a lot of neighborhood cohesion.  There are a lot more single young people than families.  But even among families, part of the lack of cohesion are the very differing ideals about parenting.  Poorer families often supervise their kids less - sometimes out of lack of parenting skills, but usually just out of economic necessity.  And that's in conflict with the nanny culture that pops up at the libraries and the parks.  So some kids - as young as 4 or 5 - are out on the street alone (or with kids who are only slightly older) while other kids are being taken from activity to activity in tow with a nanny.  But the city policies - which don't put a minimum age on being alone, which allow all resident youth to get a free bus pass to use during the day, which refuse to bus any child who does not have bussing as part of an IEP, all seem to encourage parents to be more hands off.  I've never seen or heard of the police hassling or being called out to hassle a parent for a kid being in a yard or doing something independently.

 

I think suburbs often discourage this sort of independence from kids by making places less walkable, not providing many parks (who needs a park when you have a giant yard!), not providing public transit (especially not free for kids), and not encouraging kids to walk to school.  There are some gated suburban communities where children are not allowed to play outside, or not allowed to play outside for certain hours, or not allowed to have any type of play equipment outside, or not allowed to make any noise outside.  So I do have that stereotype.  And I do think of how government policy helps shape a community's parenting norms.  But I'm sure that doesn't even remotely match many people's experience of suburbs.

 

I do sometimes long for my rural childhood though...  Free reign on our land and no one around.  Ah.  But the place I grew up isn't rural anymore.  It's a suburb!

[creekland]

Creek, I think one can make those sorts of communities anywhere.  In my suburban city we've traded off  house/pet sitting.  We had neighbors and their friends over for Christmas when a tree fell on their roof.  We've taken people to doctor's appointments.  I took care of one neighbor's toddler while she miscarried.  And neighbors have take care of me when I've had a flat tire, when my leg went through our back deck and got stuck, when my dd locked herself into an upstairs room while a toddler. . .   As to the person who mentioned the police as scary people, we've gotten to know our local police at neighborhood bbq's and community meetings.  The police come to those sorts of things in order to get to know us and so that they can know the real dynamics of a neighborhood.  Knowing your community leaders and helpers makes a difference.  

 

The difference for us is that when we lived suburban/city it was solely our circle of friends (church, work) with whom we had these relationships and who knew what was going on.

 

Now that we're rural it's far wider than our circle of friends.  I've had complete strangers (to me) come up and offer assistance, etc.  Obviously they know someone who knows me, etc, but that would have never happened in our suburban setting.  I also know far more about others who aren't in our active circle of friends here. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

I think suburbs often discourage this sort of independence from kids by making places less walkable, not providing many parks (who needs a park when you have a giant yard!), not providing public transit (especially not free for kids), and not encouraging kids to walk to school.  There are some gated suburban communities where children are not allowed to play outside, or not allowed to play outside for certain hours, or not allowed to have any type of play equipment outside, or not allowed to make any noise outside.  So I do have that stereotype.  And I do think of how government policy helps shape a community's parenting norms.  But I'm sure that doesn't even remotely match many people's experience of suburbs.

 

 

Our suburb has joined the ranks of many modern suburbs that are trying to encourage walking by putting in more sidewalks or more trails.  They also have a lot of parks even if some are "pocket parks" with just a bench and a small play structure.   Our suburb does have areas that they encourage as our community "living rooms" - the local library, the local Y, even our local park.  They also have a couple of community events a year that bring us all together - like our suburb's 4th of July celebration.  We actively seek out those places and events.  We also actively volunteer at the Y, the library and in the parks.  My kids have not had the public transportation experience I had growing up, though. 

 

One thing I've noticed by being involved in our community is that there is varying levels of community involvement.  We are part of a core group of people that I meet over and over again - at the Y, the park etc.  But then there are others that I've met at only one or two of these venues - a bit less involved but still out there consistently none-the-less.  And then there are others who I see sporadically or who I don't recognize at all but recognize me.  An example of that was a lady who I didn't  recognize in the check-out line who said to me, "You're husband is looking for you" and then pointed to the door of the grocery store where my husband was standing, craning his neck.  I think those of us who are more involved end up being known to a lot of people just because we pop up everywhere.  

[Word Nerd]

Honestly, those stories sound like nothing more than concerned police doing their jobs. No one was threatened, arrested or reported.

 

Police officers berate mother for being neglectful and that they should take the children away from her right then and there.

I really don't get how you don't see #2 as the mother being threatened.

[msrift]

Honestly, those stories sound like nothing more than concerned police doing their jobs. No one was threatened, arrested or reported.

 

Well, we just disagree on that. I find officers threatening to take children away as, well, threatening. The fact that they didn't is of little consequence. 

[Catwoman]

Police officers berate mother for being neglectful and that they should take the children away from her right then and there.[/size]

I really don't get how you don't see #2 as the mother being threatened.

  

Well, we just disagree on that. I find officers threatening to take children away as, well, threatening. The fact that they didn't is of little consequence.

 

I have serious doubts that the police threatened to take the children "then and there." It sounds more like an annoyed mother embellishing her story to make it more dramatic when she recounted the incident to her friends.

 

The story just doesn't ring true to me, unless the police officers' version of the incident was quite different, and that there was a lot more going on there that the mom neglected to mention.

[Jean in Newcastle]

  

I have serious doubts that the police threatened to take the children "then and there." It sounds more like an annoyed mother embellishing her story to make it more dramatic when she recounted the incident to her friends.

 

The story just doesn't ring true to me, unless the police officers' version of the incident was quite different, and that there was a lot more going on there that the mom neglected to mention.

:iagree:   I doubt a police officer could just take the kids away without some kind of a court order.  Most people who are calm and collected and don't argue with an officer will find that police officers are fairly reasonable.  

[swellmomma]

I've had cops threaten crap in the past like that. Once because oldest then 5yrs old took off out of the house in the night and I called the police to help look for him and the woman cop screamed at me in the street claiming I would be lucky if they returned him if/when they found him and he would be better off taken from me etc. most cops are okay but I have met many in my life that are simply bullies that grew up and found a job that lets them bully people

[MBM]

Remember this case of the suburban mom:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-532231/Mother-facing-jail-leaving-baby-car-minutes-money-charity-box-10-yards-away.html

 

There are many good officers out there but you can also find hot heads.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Remember this case of the suburban mom:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-532231/Mother-facing-jail-leaving-baby-car-minutes-money-charity-box-10-yards-away.html

 

There are many good officers out there but you can also find hot heads.

You're quoting a tabloid as proof?!  :lol:

[Catwoman]

There are many good officers out there but you can also find hot heads.

I believe that those "horror story" cases are the rare exception, rather than the rule.

 

Honestly, I am often surprised on this forum at the level of negativity I see directed toward the police. I never hear comments like that in my everyday life.

[MBM]

You're quoting a tabloid as proof?!  :lol:

 

The case is a few years old and the Daily Mail happened to still have it up. My apologies, so here is another source for you that essentially says the same thing. You will have to scroll down a few inches to read the news article. It made all the major news around here back when it happened.

 

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2008/03/free-treffly.html

 

The case was rightfully eventually dropped.

[Word Nerd]

I believe that those "horror story" cases are the rare exception, rather than the rule.

 

Honestly, I am often surprised on this forum at the level of negativity I see directed toward the police. I never hear comments like that in my everyday life.

 

We aren't talking about generalizations. We're talking about a specific instance in which an actual person claims the police threatened to take her child away. 

[SKL]

  

I have serious doubts that the police threatened to take the children "then and there." It sounds more like an annoyed mother embellishing her story to make it more dramatic when she recounted the incident to her friends.

 

The story just doesn't ring true to me, unless the police officers' version of the incident was quite different, and that there was a lot more going on there that the mom neglected to mention.

 

I believe it.  Cops are just human beings.  They are not all saints or sages.

 

I've been in a couple of situations that I wouldn't have believed if it hadn't happened to me.

 

And when I posted on here, I got comments like the above.