Blackfish

[jenbrdsly]

Has anyone seen this documentary? It's streaming on Netflix right now. I'd say it's for teens on up.

[Halcyon]

I watched 30 minutes yesterday and decided my kids need to see it. We're watching it tonight after dinner. My kids are 8 and 11 fwiw.

[HappyLady]

I've seen enough of these to know what it's about and to know I'll never patronize a place like Sea World ever again.  I know a lot of people that have watched it and think the same way now.  

[Mom25girls]

I've seen enough of these to know what it's about and to know I'll never patronize a place like Sea World ever again.  I know a lot of people that have watched it and think the same way now.  

In agreement. My daughters (10,11,12,14,20) and I watched it this past week. In fact, the girls watched it many times. We've had some very intense discussions following this movie. I'd highly recommend it. Hoping that this documentary forces Sea World to make some huge changes. 

[poppy]

It covers the same ground as this article: http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/nature/The-Killer-in-the-Pool.html

I found the article to be more horrifying, honestly.

But actually seeing the lies coming from the mouths of Sea World employees & execs is very effective.

It shows two or three graphic attacks, but does not show film of the fatal attack(s).

[AlmiraGulch]

I watched it.  It was very, very good.

[MooCow]

I started watching it earlier in the week.......couldn't finish it. :(

[hillfarm]

This is very true and also applies to other marine mammal species kept in captivity, such as a variety of dolphins, whales, seals, walruses, and sea lions.

 

I worked as a marine mammal inspector for a state DNR. After that experience, I can say that I believe that no amount of money that we can throw at creating tanks or enclosures can ever provide adequate housing for whales and dolphins.

 

For anyone considering a swim-with-the-dolphin program or visiting a theme park, please keep in mind that these animals' lives often closely resemble slavery. They are ripped out of their family groups that would naturally be lifetime associations, they are placed in what amounts to sterile cells, deprived of their natural foods, forced to perform tricks in order to eat, and often treated as aquatic teddy bears with no regard whatsoever for the unique species they really are. Some manage to adapt better than others and seem to find some semblance of stability, while others slowly go insane, which manifests in a variety of dangerous behaviors. No amount of "animal ambassador" talk can negate what I have personally seen with my own eyes. Cetaceans are a very intelligent group and we just can't meet their needs in captivity.

[MyLittleWonders]

I've seen enough of these to know what it's about and to know I'll never patronize a place like Sea World ever again. I know a lot of people that have watched it and think the same way now.

i just watched it the other day and feel the same way.

[Kerileanne99]

My family watched it and loved it, and my little one has been greatly inpacted. My dd is extremely into sea creatures and is insistent that she wants to be a marine biologist and an oceanographer (she just turned 4:)

In fact, she got annual passes to SeaWorld for her bday and I can tell you they will be going largely unused. She is just too concerned with all aspects, and we have tried to be honest and upfront with her...and I say largely unused because of the fact that we currently have family visiting from the UK who were very excited to go. We went yesterday (most likely for the very last time!) and I can tell you the movie has already had a large impact on the park. It is on the tip of many, many tongues there.

And currently Sea World has large sales online to attract people. We stayed in a hotel that packages deals primarily with SeaWorld and it was pretty quiet too, with low rates. I know it is the off-season, but apparently numbers are way down. I really hope this forces some changes, but we have made the decision that we just won't be a part of it anymore:(

I also found it very coincidental that the regularly-scheduled Orca shows have been canceled for now...the PR says this is because of the baby orca calf born on Dec 9th, giving people a chance to meet her. But....

 

ETA: even after actually being there my dd refused to go see the baby or a that she has been so excited about...and she has been waiting desperately for over a year to be old enough to do a behind the scenes penguin tour with the visiting relatives. She knows SO much about penguins, their habitats, etc. she was actually in tears when she was told they NEVER get live fish, or even krill. She doesn't even want to go back at all...and neither do we:(

[jillian]

I really enjoyed it. I will never go to a seaworld type place again

 

[AlmiraGulch]

This is very true and also applies to other marine mammal species kept in captivity, such as a variety of dolphins, whales, seals, walruses, and sea lions.

 

I worked as a marine mammal inspector for a state DNR. After that experience, I can say that I believe that no amount of money that we can throw at creating tanks or enclosures can ever provide adequate housing for whales and dolphins.

 

For anyone considering a swim-with-the-dolphin program or visiting a theme park, please keep in mind that these animals' lives often closely resemble slavery. They are ripped out of their family groups that would naturally be lifetime associations, they are placed in what amounts to sterile cells, deprived of their natural foods, forced to perform tricks in order to eat, and often treated as aquatic teddy bears with no regard whatsoever for the unique species they really are. Some manage to adapt better than others and seem to find some semblance of stability, while others slowly go insane, which manifests in a variety of dangerous behaviors. No amount of "animal ambassador" talk can negate what I have personally seen with my own eyes. Cetaceans are a very intelligent group and we just can't meet their needs in captivity.

 

In your experience, were there ever cases where the animals had been sick or injured in the wild, then rescued and raised in captivity where they wouldn't have been successful back in the wild?

 

I'm completely speculating, of course, and I know that's not at all what was depicted in the movie.  I'm just wondering if there's ever a case (like Winter in Clearwater, for example) where captivity is the better alternative.

[BrookValley.]

In your experience, were there ever cases where the animals had been sick or injured in the wild, then rescued and raised in captivity where they wouldn't have been successful back in the wild?

 

I'm completely speculating, of course, and I know that's not at all what was depicted in the movie. I'm just wondering if there's ever a case (like Winter in Clearwater, for example) where captivity is the better alternative.

I wonder this, too.

[DragonFaerie]

I haven't seen the movie, so this is coming from a place of ignorance.  But doesn't Sea World do a lot of good as far as rescue/rehabilitation and conservation programs?

[Tammi K]

I just watched it a few nights ago. I don't imagine myself going back to Seaworld any time soon!

[jenbrdsly]

DragonFaerie, apparently SeaWorld puts a good spin on their so-called "conservation". Really they are to blame for the decimation J,K, and L Pod orcas in Puget Sound (where I live). They also make claims about orcas living longer in captivity than in the wild, which isn't true.

 

This is all of interest to me because two teenagers in my town sponsored a showing of "Blackfish" in our local theater. I happened to go that night, and was so inspired that I wrote about it for my column for our local newspaper. I can't seem to hyperlink at the moment, but if you click on "I Brake for Moms" in my siggy, you'll find it.

 

That night at the theater Howard Garrett from the Orca Network came out to talk to us afterwards and he was really great. (He's from the documentary.)

 

There's another movie I want to see that's about Lolita, the last surviving orca from that big capture who has been living for 40 years in at in tiny tank in Miami Seaquarium.

[DragonFaerie]

DragonFaerie, apparently SeaWorld puts a good spin on their so-called "conservation". Really they are to blame for the decimation J,K, and L Pod orcas in Puget Sound (where I live). They also make claims about orcas living longer in captivity than in the wild, which isn't true.

 

This is all of interest to me because two teenagers in my town sponsored a showing of "Blackfish" in our local theater. I happened to go that night, and was so inspired that I wrote about it for my column for our local newspaper. I can't seem to hyperlink at the moment, but if you click on "I Brake for Moms" in my siggy, you'll find it.

 

That night at the theater Howard Garrett from the Orca Network came out to talk to us afterwards and he was really great. (He's from the documentary.)

 

There's another movie I want to see that's about Lolita, the last surviving orca from that big capture who has been living for 40 years in at in tiny tank in Miami Seaquarium.

 

Is the decimation of the pods in the past or ongoing?  I'm wondering if maybe they're changing how they do things.

 

[Mergath]

I haven't seen the movie, so this is coming from a place of ignorance.  But doesn't Sea World do a lot of good as far as rescue/rehabilitation and conservation programs?

 

I'd really encourage you to watch the movie.  Apparently, 99% of what comes out of the mouths of SeaWorld employees is absolute crap.  I watched it last week and was horrified, and very, very glad that Seaworld has never received a penny of our money.

[Piper]

How funny - I just started watching it this afternoon.  Haven't gotten too far into it yet (family actually wanted dinner, can you believe it?!) but it's certainly got my attention - and having seen how the orcas were captured, I'm already thinking that SeaWorld won't be entering our travel itinerary in the future.

 

One thought that occurred to me - how much do humans get themselves into trouble by anthropomorphizing animals about whose behaviour we really don't have much knowledge?  For example, every time I see a picture of a trainer "hugging" a killer whale it kind of makes me shake my head.  Sure, that gives us humans the warm-and-fuzzies, but how does the animal really read that action?  We really don't know what they make of it, though it's so easy to imagine that it gives them warm-and-fuzzies, also.  Seems to me that falling into the trap of attributing to animals the reactions/emotions that we're experiencing is a very easy, but very dangerous thing to do, and often we probably don't even notice that we're doing it.

[ThisIsTheDay]

I read the book after reading a recommendation here--and the show aired just a week or so later.  It was excellent . . . and so sad.  My mom lives in a prime whale-watching area, and we're familiar with her local pods, which added a bit of personal interest to the story.

 

It's definitely appropriate for teens, although mine was appalled at the technique for obtaining sperm (graphic but short) in the movie.

[jenbrdsly]

Is the decimation of the pods in the past or ongoing?  I'm wondering if maybe they're changing how they do things.

 

 

They took so many orcas in the past that the pods haven't fully recovered (especially K pod). In 1976 the state of Washington sued Sea World and made them leave. So ever since 1976 Washington waters have been unofficial orca sanctuaries.

 

After SeaWorld left Washington they moved onto Iceland.

 

What's happening now that's really sad is that Russia wants in on the game. They have captured 9 (I think) whales from the Arctic and have them in holding tanks right now in preparation for creating a big SeaWorld type park. But right now the whales are just sitting there "on the shelf" so to speak.

 

[Okay, what is up with my computer and Hive? I can't hyperlink, and I can't make that last quotation mark look like " instead of ' !]

[ChristusG]

Why just Sea World though? Do zoos not do the same thing? The lions live in a small area, never able to hunt. Bears sleep all day because there's nothing else for them to do. Zoo trainers/handlers have been killed too. Sea World is wrong in what they are doing but you can't point fingers at Sea World and nowhere else. Sure, most zoo animals may be born in captivity but those parents had to come from somewhere.

[Mommyof4ks]

Why just Sea World though? Do zoos not do the same thing? The lions live in a small area, never able to hunt. Bears sleep all day because there's nothing else for them to do. Zoo trainers/handlers have been killed too. Sea World is wrong in what they are doing but you can't point fingers at Sea World and nowhere else. Sure, most zoo animals may be born in captivity but those parents had to come from somewhere.

I wonder that too. Where is the line? Dogs bite and kill people out of frustration (and no dog wants to sit and roll over lol), and we think nothing of separating dogs from their puppies. My kids had a hamster, we have fish in a tank (ok fish are not exactly as intelligent, but still), we have two birds in a cage, and we are planning to get a lizard. All of those are for our pleasure, not for the best interest of the animal. All of those animals were captured somewhere at sometime and bred for pets which are kept in small cages (well they do come out, but on my terms and they sleep in the cage). I then am no better than Sea World, and maybe that is true. That is why I asked where is the line?

 

The lies and withheld info that could have saved trainers was the part that upset me about the movie. I really hope that the parks change their training to keep their employees safe. It has been years since trainers have gotten in the water with Orcas at SW San Antonio, possibly even before Dawn's death, but I cannot remember the year I noticed the change in the show. That does not change the animals' lives, but it does help protect the people. People do get in the water with other animals though.

[poppy]

I wonder that too. Where is the line? Dogs bite and kill people out of frustration (and no dog wants to sit and roll over lol), and we think nothing of separating dogs from their puppies. My kids had a hamster, we have fish in a tank (ok fish are not exactly as intelligent, but still), we have two birds in a cage, and we are planning to get a lizard. All of those are for our pleasure, not for the best interest of the animal. All of those animals were captured somewhere at sometime and bred for pets which are kept in small cages (well they do come out, but on my terms and they sleep in the cage). I then am no better than Sea World, and maybe that is true. That is why I asked where is the line?

 

The lies and withheld info that could have saved trainers was the part that upset me about the movie. I really hope that the parks change their training to keep their employees safe. It has been years since trainers have gotten in the water with Orcas at SW San Antonio, possibly even before Dawn's death, but I cannot remember the year I noticed the change in the show. That does not change the animals' lives, but it does help protect the people. People do get in the water with other animals though.

 

Putting a wild animal in a show is not the same as adopting a domestic animal as a well treated pet.  The main ocra featured in the film is an intelligent free range predator taken from its family as a baby to live in a small holding tank where it is kept in with other, stronger whales that abuse it-  for decades.  Orcas in the wild live with their family groups - have their own language - travel hundreds of miles per day.  They live to be 100 years old; Sea World's "shumus" make it to about 30 . Sea World is not a better life. 

[poppy]

Why just Sea World though? Do zoos not do the same thing? The lions live in a small area, never able to hunt. Bears sleep all day because there's nothing else for them to do. Zoo trainers/handlers have been killed too. Sea World is wrong in what they are doing but you can't point fingers at Sea World and nowhere else. Sure, most zoo animals may be born in captivity but those parents had to come from somewhere.

 

My town's zoo has a number of gorillas whose lives I do not envy.

 

But they aren't conditioned to perform for the crowds; they are fed on a schedule, not for performing tricks; they are given toys, a varied diet and other forms of stimulation; and the zoos do seem to respect the worker's safety.  And they are all born in captivity- they are very careful to show the lineage, so no one thinks healthy gorillas are being snatched from the wild. Of course they do continue to breed them.

 

 

I'd never go to a circus with performing elephants or lions.  That's not OK.

[Alessandra]

I saw Blackfish recently. I've been waiting for it since reading Death at Sea World, by David Kirby. Fascinating and well written.

[DragonFaerie]

Please don't think I am defending their practices at all, but I haven't seen the show (nor been to Sea World) so I'm just sort of thinking "out loud" here.  But it seems like there is something to be said for the educational benefits of having these animals where people can see and experience them "up close."  It seems like that helps build interest and respect and, subsequently, support for the animals and their habitats, doesn't it?

[ajfries]

I watched the documentary twice, after I watched it I had DH watch it with me. I've always loved Orcas & wanted to be a marine biologist for a long time.  My family went & saw Keiko shortly before they released him & it was incredibly sad to me. He wasn't performing, but seeing such a majestic creature in such a small enclosure (and IIRC his accommodations were much better than SeaWorld's) was heartbreaking.

 

I couldn't help but tear up when they took the baby from one of the mothers & her cries were long range--something researchers weren't aware of before.  What really disgusted me is that SeaWorld doesn't really want marine biologists for trainers. They were looking for people who would be easily manipulated into (at least initially) thinking that the animals were better off in captivity. Saying they live longer due to vet care, that 25% of all male oracs have a flopped over dorsal fin in the wild.

 

A PP brought up dogs & puppies, I'm not saying I like that scenario, either...but it is different. I can't really explain it, but domesticated dogs are different than their wild counterparts, wolves. But maybe if whales were "domesticated" long enough they too would become different than those out in the ocean. 

 

I saw on the documentary that SeaWorld was appealing the decision to not have trainers in the water with the whales...has that been upheld? I imagine the shows are much less entertaining without the interaction.

[Excelsior! Academy]

I wonder that too. Where is the line? Dogs bite and kill people out of frustration (and no dog wants to sit and roll over lol), and we think nothing of separating dogs from their puppies. My kids had a hamster, we have fish in a tank (ok fish are not exactly as intelligent, but still), we have two birds in a cage, and we are planning to get a lizard. All of those are for our pleasure, not for the best interest of the animal. All of those animals were captured somewhere at sometime and bred for pets which are kept in small cages (well they do come out, but on my terms and they sleep in the cage). I then am no better than Sea World, and maybe that is true. That is why I asked where is the line?

 

 

 

 

I see a difference.  Most domesticated animals in good homes have much freer range.  House pets often have a cat/dog door to explore outdoors.  Even if they are only an indoor animals they still have a large area, comparatively speaking, to their size and needs.  From my experience dogs and cats are done with their offspring after a month or two and don't seem to be in huge distress when they are removed.  A goldfish or beta in a tank just doesn't have the same familial or space needs that whales do.  To answer your question, and it is a valid one, I don't know where the line is.  It falls somewhere between.  Feral cats and dogs don't seem to fare as well as ones placed in good homes.  Larger animals (lions, kangaroos, alligators, etc.) in captivity are harder to determine.  I would hate to loose all access to animals we would otherwise never see up close, but cannot imagine the conditions shown in that movie are in the best interest of anyone.  Not the animals.  Not the trainers.  Not the public at large.

 

[poppy]

Please don't think I am defending their practices at all, but I haven't seen the show (nor been to Sea World) so I'm just sort of thinking "out loud" here.  But it seems like there is something to be said for the educational benefits of having these animals where people can see and experience them "up close."  It seems like that helps build interest and respect and, subsequently, support for the animals and their habitats, doesn't it?

 

I have no problems with aquariums, which serve that purpose pretty well.  Though I can't imagine any are big enough for an orca. 

 

Sea World is more like a circus than a zoo. Animals are kept confined except when performing, and must perform to be fed.

Now that I think about it, seals and sea lions do perform at our local aquarium. But they are obviously much smaller, and less intelligent, than dolphins and whales. And the trainers do not enter the water with the animals.  And the aquarium is a non profit, educational institution where Sea World is a publicly traded, for profit company.

 

I also wouldn't argue that having killer whales swimming with trainers and performing tricks builds support for the breed.  I went to Sea World as a little girl and was absolutely delighted by it - I thought Shamu was cute.  Those videos of killer whales beaching themselves to gobble up sea lions are much more effective in conveying the reality of the whales. 

[DragonFaerie]

I have a hard time imagining that they would really just let an animal starve to death if it wasn't performing.

[poppy]

I have a hard time imagining that they would really just let an animal starve to death if it wasn't performing.

 

I'm sure they wouldn't- they talked about Tilikum being more valued for his sperm than for his performances.

But if he didn't perform, he also wouldn't get any stimulation.

See the trailer to see the little holding pen whales were kept in when no in a show or in training.

[Alessandra]

David Kirby argues that orcas are one of the worst animals to keep in captivity. First of course is that the size of their pools is a tiny fraction of their range in the wild -- they can't even get basic exercise, and they have no way of avoiding other orcas that could hurt them. Orcas live in lifelong family/community groups (pods) -- that fundamental part of orca existence is totally disrupted when they are captured and sent back and forth to various aquaria. Orcas have large, complex brains -- capable of language and emotions -- that many have likened to human brains. 

 

In the wild orcas live to sixty years or so; in captivity, their lifespan is half that, at best. Orcas in captivity are fed a regular diets of antibiotics and other medications. Orcas in the wild have erect dorsal fins; in captivity, the dorsal fins can be flopped over. There is no record of wild orcas attacking people.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Death-SeaWorld-Killer-Whales-Captivity/dp/1250031257

 

Please, just read the excerpt and see if you like the book. It is more detailed than the article above.

 

 

[Moxie]

I haven't watched the movie yet but I did read the article that someone linked. I agree with the comment in the article that we are at a point where we have learned all we can about these animals by keeping them captive and it is time to find our entertainment elsewhere.

[jillian]

Blackfish specifically discusses how they used food at least when Sealand of the Pacific was open as a punishment and to entice the orcas into their metal box at night that was for their "protection".

[Alessandra]

I'm sure they wouldn't- they talked about Tilikum being more valued for his sperm than for his performances.

 

 

Oh, I forgot about this. Inbreeding. Many of the whales in captivity descend from Tilikum. 

[poppy]

Blackfish specifically discusses how they used food at least when Sealand of the Pacific was open as a punishment and to entice the orcas into their metal box at night that was for their "protection".

 

It also has several trainers speculating that the attack in 2010 happened after Tilikum performed a trick and didn't get a food reward, because of a miscommunication (he didn't hear a whistle). They think this angered him and triggered the attack. It seems like food and human relationships are pretty fraught. Unlike a zoo (or domestic animal) situation where animals are fed reliably on a schedule.

 

[Stef03]

A different documentary - but I also highly recommend watching The Cove (dolphins). You can view it online too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KRD8e20fBo

[jillian]

It also has several trainers speculating that the attack in 2010 happened after Tilikum performed a trick and didn't get a food reward, because of a miscommunication (he didn't hear a whistle). They think this angered him and triggered the attack. It seems like food and human relationships are pretty fraught. Unlike a zoo (or domestic animal) situation where animals are fed reliably on a schedule.

 

This is very true. Food is a biological imperative, it triggers unreliable behaviors when it is used as punishment or withheld when normally used as reinforcement for a very long period of time.

[hillfarm]

Okay, just got back to this thread.

 

When I was involved in the marine mammal industry as a regulator, the process called "axeing", or withholding food until the animal offered the desired behavior, was fairly common, just not discussed openly. Many of the trainers I interviewed revealed that they had done this and that it was a standard procedure.

 

I do not buy into the "keeping some in captivity helps to educate people so we will protect them" line of thinking. Keeping some in captivity is a big cash generating machine. We do not have to possess something in order to admire it or learn about it. BTW, what exactly would we be learning that could possibly be translated to wild individuals? The behaviors of animals that have been taken from their natural social structures, forced into confinement, fed a diet different from their natural one, and trained to offer certain behaviors in a much different frequency than they would be in the wild, many of their natural behaviors eradicated... Tell me again where all this educational value is supposed to come from??? Wouldn't we learn so much more by observing them in their natural habitat? We now have ample capability to do that.

 

AlmiraGulch asked about rescued animals. Yes, I have definitely seen situations where whales and dolphins were rescued but had sustained such severe injuries that they could not be safely returned to the wild. The question comes down to whether it is more humane to euthanize them or to attempt to maintain them indefinitely in an environment that can never be adequate. Death or life in a sterile cell. It is a very hard call to make. If any animals were to be kept captive, I would think it should be these. However, most of the marine attractions do not want these animals that are often visibly damaged and scarred and unable to perform. If they do keep them, they go into a captive breeding pool, with their only purpose to be bred and bear more cosmetically pleasing individuals.

 

After the moratorium on the take of wild dolphins from US waters, captive breeding was the only option available to many facilities that could not afford to turn to international take. At that time, the cost of a healthy, young, female dolphin of reproductive age climbed to well over $50,000 per individual. I have no idea how high it is now.

 

Marine parks also began to look elsewhere for their supply of performers. It boggles my mind that anyone could think it would be a good idea to take an animal out of its natural environment, where gravity is negligible, transport it in a sling for thousands of miles, often placing it in a climate very different from its home, and call that "conservation". I saw many animals transported from very cold climates to tropical ones and vice versa. Marine mammals frequently do not adapt well to becoming captive. Some die from the shock of being chased down (capture myopathy), others never adapt to eating dead food and starve to death. Some just pine away and their deaths are categorized as failure to thrive. Many become entangled in nets or drains and drown. Others are attacked by other captive marine mammals and killed. Some have just freaked out and beaten their heads to a pulp on the hard sides of their concrete tanks. And that's not even counting the ones that died later due to human error. Do any of you know of any human ambassadors who have exhibited similar behavior? Not exactly the happy and fun frolic that the theme parks want to portray.

 

Regarding the difference between domestic pets and captive cetaceans, although there may be ethical issues, IMO the practical issues involve a difference in our human ability to provide an adequate environment. Dogs and cats live longer and healthier lives in captivity than they do in the wild. We are able to do a good job of approximating their natural diet and activity level. Most domestic animals are not expected to perform to earn their food. Cetaceans, on the other hand, as I previously detailed, do not live longer in captivity. Many quickly develop serious health problems. Most are on a constant diet of antibiotics and antianxiety meds. And then there's the question of intelligence. Many experts believe that cetaceans are incredibly intelligent, some say as much as the great apes, others say as smart as humans. In the wild they live rich social lives, have been proven to have signature whistles similar to our names, live in close-knit family groups and have the totality of the ocean to explore at will. In captivity they are confined to concrete tanks (imagine what that does to their sonar), fed dead food, and have no enrichment other than the occasional human interaction or toy tossed to them.

 

I abhor the anthropomorphism surrounding cetaceans. They are incredible, unique, magnificent animals in their own right. We do not need to turn them into aquatic teddy bears in order to appreciate them.

 

Unfortunately the solution to all this is not as easy as turning them all loose. Some are not fit for life in the wild and would not live long. A while back there was an experiment to try to teach captive born dolphins how to live as wild dolphins, but I haven't followed up on it for a long time. Then you have the genetics issue. Should cetaceans be released into areas where they were originally taken from, where their original pod structure has long since changed? Can they be released into other areas, thereby introducing new genetics and forever change the genetic makeup of that group? What about the "mixed pod" babies that were born in captivity? Where should they be released? So many complicated issues and I don't have the answers. But I do firmly believe that cetaceans should not be kept in captivity because we cannot provide an adequate environment for them.

[ThisIsTheDay]

 

 

When I was involved in the marine mammal industry as a regulator . . .

 

...

 

I abhor the anthropomorphism surrounding cetaceans. They are incredible, unique, magnificent animals in their own right. We do not need to turn them into aquatic teddy bears in order to appreciate them.

 

Excellent post, very interesting and Informative. I really appreciate your taking the time to respond at length, particularly since you have experience in this field.  Thank you!

[RoundAbout]

Sea World is more like a circus than a zoo. Animals are kept confined except when performing, and must perform to be fed.

 

We visited Sea World in San Diego after having annual passes to the San Diego Zoo for 3 years. The difference was like night and day. My husband and I were shocked at how small the tanks were for all of the animals. The Orca show had no conservation message or even nod to Orcas in the wild. We thought it was a joke and that maybe we had missed something. Plus there were roller coasters and rides! It was all just very odd and this was months before Blackfish so we weren't suspecting anything.

 

There are terrible zoos, but there are also magnificent ones that are working on saving endangered species and reintroducing them to the wild. The San Diego Zoo is run more like a research facility, but I would say, at a minimum most zoos care about education and conservation. I saw nothing like that at Sea World. Circus is a good description.

[hillfarm]

Here is a site that details one research project regarding the family structure of dolphins in a pod. I was fortunate enough to be able to go out with Randy and his group a couple of times to observe their program. They learned a great deal about dolphins and educated a lot of people, without placing a single animal in long-term captivity. They did occasionally catch members of the pod to take measurements, but monitored their health during the exam and released them in short order (around 20-30 minutes, IIRC). Much of their work involved photographing the animals and recording their vocalizations, with no capture required. After many years of the program, the dolphins were, if not thrilled to participate, at least resigned to it and were not as traumatized by being caught.

[chelsmm]

I think that some zoos are very different than Sea World.  Our local zoo is very small.  Many of the animals there are there because they were rescued for some reason.  Most can not be released again.  However our zoo does participate in a program to release Mexican Gray Wolves.  We had five for the past couple years who were recently released and just received four more.  Most of the animals are small- no lions or anything.  Some were born into captivity. We have a snow leopard.  I'll need to get her story because I know she was born at the zoo.  I"m not sure if there is a plan to release her, but I don't think so.  Her habitat is smaller than ideal, I'm sure.  But overall, I feel like my kids have learned a lot about these animals.  Many are endangered.  We are able to read about why at each of the animal's areas.  My kids are very interested in how they can help the environment and the animals, and I think a lot of this comes from their love of the animals.  I don't know, I don't love the idea of wild animals in captivity, but I do see some benefits if it's done properly.

 

Orcas?  No way.  That movie was heartbreaking.  I will never, ever go to Seaworld.  My kids didn't watch the movie, but I told them all about it.  They were horrified, just like I was.  

 

Anyone know about the Mote Aquarium in Florida?  I took the kids there a couple times, and I thought their dolphins were injured and unable to be released.  They don't do shows or tricks.  They just swim around and you can see them.  They have some toys, but there are no trainers telling them what to do.  There were two or three at the time.  I got such a good feeling from the place, I hope it's ok.  

 

The Boston Aquarium has seals.  They don't do shows either.  Not sure of their story, but the aquarium talks a lot about conservation.  They have a turtle program where they rescue and rehab injured turtles and release them.  I do feel so sad for the larger turtle and shark in the large tank.  I will need to ask about them next time I go there too.

 

I do think family dogs are different.  We had a husky for 15 years.  She had the run of the house and daily adventures outside.  She seemed very happy.  She would seek out our company.  If I was in bed, she might jump in and snuggle up next to me.  I never jumped into her bed to snuggle her, but she was welcome to seek me out.  She, of course, was never deprived of food or used for her breeding purposes.  She did do one trick though.  She gave a high five.  She did it once by accident, and we made such a big deal that she kept doing it.  :)

 

Our beta fish- well, I'd really love for the pet stores to stop selling them.  It's gross how they keep them in cups.  I feel like every time we take one home (we have had three over the last 6 years), we are improving that one beta's life.  Our betas get a five gallon tank with a heater and filter, live plants/rocks/and some kind of cave for hiding.  They are fed regularly.  And they live for years.  So I think they are better off with us.  If I thought my not buying them would cause the pet stores to stop selling them, I'd stop buying them.  But I know it wouldn't make a difference.

 

 

[hillfarm]

Chelsea, I haven't been closely involved in the marine mammal industry for many years, but Mote seemed to be okay when I was. They did have a fairly active marine animal stranding program and seemed willing to release those animals that could be restored to health adequately - unlike some of the other facilities. It may surprise people to learn, but there is an astounding amount of politics surrounding marine animal stranding response. The rarer the animal, the more intense the jockeying for possession of it. I have personally seen a smaller, local facility respond immediately, only to have their personnel kicked off the beach when the larger facility personal arrive and take charge. There was little camaraderie and intense competition instead. When you consider the money making potential of a rare animal, or the reproductive potential of a young, breeding-age individual, it is not surprising.  There was minimal competition for older animals or males, especially if of the common bottlenose dolphin species. That was what made it clear to me that more than altruism was at issue.

 

ETA: Mote was the facility that the researcher I linked about worked out of back in the day. They did (and may still do) more of a scientific research program than an entertainment one. They also had a strong focus on many species, not just the more commercially popular sharks and cetaceans.

 

 

[DragonFaerie]

Does anyone have any info on the Georgia Aquarium?  I've been there a few times, and it's my understanding that they are very committed to education and conservation. 

[Alessandra]

Hillfarm

 

Thank you for taking the time to write about your experiences. I appreciate your posts.

 

 

A different documentary - but I also highly recommend watching The Cove (dolphins). You can view it online too:

I saw this, very disturbing.

[mom2scouts]

Please don't think I am defending their practices at all, but I haven't seen the show (nor been to Sea World) so I'm just sort of thinking "out loud" here.  But it seems like there is something to be said for the educational benefits of having these animals where people can see and experience them "up close."  It seems like that helps build interest and respect and, subsequently, support for the animals and their habitats, doesn't it?

 

I read an article that claimed Sea World is a victim of its own success.  Millions of people have seen orcas up close because of Sea World and those people now are aware that orcas are beautiful, complex, intelligent, and amazing creatures.  Now people are understanding that these animals don't belong in a place like Sea World because it is a cruel life for them.  I follow the Cousteau family's Ocean Futures Society and I like what Jean-Michel Cousteau has to say about this issue:  This is the third death associated with Tilikum while in captivity. The tragic death of the trainer suggests that maybe we have outgrown the need to keep such wild, enormous, complex, intelligent and free-ranging animals in captivity, where their behavior is not only unnatural, it can become pathological.

[poppy]

I don't think Sea World was ever necessary.  A whole lot of people here in Massachusetts make a whole lot of money doing whale watching tours- which gets people up close to a half dozen types of whales, but on the animals own terms and in their natural environment. Even those are a little controversial. I really can't speak to it, though, I've never been -  that is too close to a whale for MY comfort level. (I am a little scared of any creature bigger than my car).

[Liz CA]

I started watching it earlier in the week.......couldn't finish it. :(

 

Is it about mistreatment of sea mammals and other sea creatures? I need a little more info to decide on this one. It always makes me so sad...