albeto. Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 The idea that Christianity coopted a pagan holiday is a recent myth. Not quite. The birth story of Jesus mirrors the birth story of other dying/living/redeeming god/men mythological figures. There's not much unique to the Christ story other than the names and places. The Jesus story is adapted from the Jewish religion, but the character of Jesus as a god/man born on earth to a virgin mother (arguably, this is not traditional to the Jewish prophecies) to eventually lead mankind to salvation (however that looks), was seen already in Romulus, a Roman state god whose death & resurrection were celebrated in annual plays; Osiris, an Egyptian god who offers salvation in afterlife to those baptised into his death and resurrection; and Zalmoxis, a Thracian god whose death & resurrection assures followers eternal life. The pagan rituals (such as decorating trees, much to the irritation of Yahweh, Jeremiah 10) came as the Christian religion was syncretised with various European pagan religions. That religions syncretised with other religions as cultures met, clashed, adapted to each other, evolved, is not unique to the Christians in Europe, either. So, no, it's not true that Christianity coopted a pagan holiday, but it is true that its story predates its religion, and many pagan practices were incorporated into the Christian identity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 This is not the answer I would give (in total). Still working ... back soon ... Well, stop working! :-) This is important stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Well, there's a 1/365 chance that it might be, :lol: I learned that is was around 200 to 300 years or so after Christ's death and resurrection that the Church tried to determine His birth. So, it's been about 1700 years since they decided on December 25th. That's enough time, IMO, that it doesn't matter to me that another god had/has a celebration on the same day. "They" decided on December 25, not because it was a good guess at the actual date, but in an effort to entice non Christians and in an effort to create more unity between Christians and pagans. The question I ask myself is how God feels about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Mocking anyone with your words isn't a hate crime. There is a privilege issue at play with the perceived Christianity-mocking thing. Also....Lots of Christians in America==plenty of EX Christians in America, with handy 1st Amendment rights. Lots of ex~ or non-practicing~ whatevers in other countries, too. With all the parody, jokes and ambivalence that comes with that. It's more tolerant down there than up here then. I don't usually call myself a Christian as I don't fit in anywhere in that world very well, but I know that if a Christian talks about her faith anywhere on the workplace and someone overhears it, it can be labeled a hate crime. It is not the same for many other faiths at this point. It is my understanding that in liturgical churches there is a calendar of events/celebrations. Every Sunday is something. I believe the date for Christmas was figured by counting backwards from the crucifixion and resurrection because we know when that occurred in relation to Passover. The flow of celebrations/feasts, etc. is so that during an entire year, the highlights of Christ's life are remembered. Christmas being near the time of other pagan holidays was coincidental and unavoidable as things would certainly overlap. But they also know when John the Baptists father would've been in the temple and so know when John the Baptist was born and we know how many months are in between John and Jesus. If we went by that Jesus would've been born around Sukkot (feast of Tabernacles) not some oddly Pagan celebration. The 25th of December was adopted as was Easter (oddly carrying a god's name) in an effort to bring people together. It makes more sense to me that God would have his son born on a holiday that was all about God coming down and dwelling with men. He created a picture long before he sent his son and his son fit perfectly into that picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 No, it wasn't his actual birthday, but if you look at a liturgical calendar it makes sense to place his birth at the end of December in relation to the rest of the calendar. I don't think early church fathers sat around thinking of ways to take over pagan holidays. Pagan symbols might play a part in some of the symbols used at Christmas (trees, mistletoe, Yule logs, etc.) but I think those were slower additions to an established feast day rather than original parts of the first Christmases. As people converted, I'm sure they kept many traditions from their life before. Thus why I don't celebrate the holiday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 It makes sense because you hear or see the words Happy Hanukkah, but where Merry Christmas might've been written, you would see Happy Holidays. Seriously? If I see a card with a Menorah on it, it's gonna say Happy Hanukkah. If I see a card with a Christmas tree or reindeer, and it says Happy Holidays, I'm not going to assume that could also be used for Hannukah or Kwanzaa, wouldn't send it to my Jewish friends, and don't understand the need to send something like that if not for Christmas. I purposefully buy cards that say Happy Holidays on it vs Christmas because I personally like to include all of my friends and acquaintances when wishing them niceties at this time of year. And it takes me forever to find one (I usually buy them on a photo site) because most of the ones I like say Christmas on them. Christmas trees are pagan. Reindeer are animals that aren't religious and are used with a character who actually isn't from the bible, either. I don't understand not sending a card wishing a friend Happy Holidays because you aren't carbon copies of each other re: beliefs. Luckily, my conservative, Christian friends still think of me during the year and send nice greetings (some Christmas and, yes, some Happy Holidays!). I also wonder what percentage of people believe there is a War on Christmas but never watch FOX News. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I do not see a war on Christmas. I do see a shifting mindset of Us vs Them among many Christians who feel that they are being discriminated against unless they are recognized by the government as THE religions in the US. I, personally, encounter a lot of hostility for not being Christian. It is as though not being Christian is the most offensive thing anyone can do. It makes me really sad. Added note: My family is a hodge podge of religious faiths. We celebrate Christmas as a cultural event. We have a tree, stockings, lights, decorations and exchange gifts. Every other year or so I go visit a friend (atheist) and we go to midnight mass at the Cathedral near her. They have a concert and it is a beautiful serve that tugs on the heart strings. You can wish me whatever, I will return the greeting. If I do not know you and your faith background I will wish you "Happy Holidays". I also say kind words to strangers year round and wish them well no matter the day or season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 There's entire treatises written on the subject, but I should probably do the quick and easy version because honestly a lot of it goes over my head. I trust the teaching of the church that was there, the one that was implementing and developing these liturgical commemorations. In the timeline of events, it was actually the conception of Christ that was determined first, liturgically. The early church established March 25th as Holy Annunciation and if you count forward nine months, you end up at December 25th, the birth of Christ. Of course there's more to it than that, but that's where the basis for Dec. 25th comes from. The early church fathers didn't think, "Oh no! Those awful pagans -- let's take over their festivals. Let's do the birth of Christ when they're celebrating something. Yeah, that'll show 'em." That's not how it worked. ;) No one in the Orthodox church supposes these dates are specific and actual. We allow for mystery in these things. But commemorating them is real and needful, so dates are set and commemorated. These practices are 1700 +/- years old and were followed for all those years until the Reformation, and some of the fallout from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 "They" decided on December 25, not because it was a good guess at the actual date, but in an effort to entice non Christians and in an effort to create more unity between Christians and pagans. Not according to this article and others I've seen. (ETA: This elaborates on the points Milovany already mentioned.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Not according to this article and others I've seen. (ETA: This elaborates on the points Milovany already mentioned.) This was one of the treatises I was referring to. :) Thank you for posting a link. I think if one is going to ask how Christmas got started, one really should look to the church that was there for answers (which would either be the Catholic church or Orthodox church, depending on your viewpoint). The article linked above in the quote is one such source. The author is a Byzantine Catholic, writing from the perspective of the early church. He's not doing his own study and coming up with his own interpretation. He's Catholic so we're not in agreement on everything he says, but this topic is definitely pre-schism and carries in it the teaching of the early church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 If we went by that Jesus would've been born around Sukkot (feast of Tabernacles) not some oddly Pagan celebration. The 25th of December was adopted as was Easter (oddly carrying a god's name) in an effort to bring people together. Easter only carries the name of a (putative, very poorly attributed elsewhere) Teutonic goddess (Eostre) in English due to its Germanic base (and, presumably, something similar in German). Otherwise, it's called something similar to Pascha (varies with language) connected to Pesach (Passover) and the image of Jesus as the Paschal Lamb. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Not according to this article and others I've seen. (ETA: This elaborates on the points Milovany already mentioned.) There is no evidence the earliest Christians---first century--attempted to calculate Christ's birth much less celebrate it. Early Chrstians specifically avoided birthday celebrations. Also those early Christians probably DID know his birth since the Jews kept accurate records of births and deaths until the temple was destroyed. And they were contemporaries of Jesus.....it is very likely they knew his birth month at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Some in the early church rejected the idea of celebrating Jesus' birth as being too similar to what was done for pagan gods. There were various leaders advocating for all sorts of dates for Christmas. And later the Gregorian calendar was not adopted all at once. There have always been Christians who resisted or avoided holidays because of the possible similarities to other faiths or what they considered false gods. I am not saying that Christmas was scheduled as some sort of conspiracy. But it certainly evolved from what came before and much was added as the holiday gained cultural traction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Easter only carries the name of a (putative, very poorly attributed elsewhere) Teutonic goddess (Eostre) in English due to its Germanic base (and, presumably, something similar in German). Otherwise, it's called something similar to Pascha (varies with language) connected to Pesach (Passover) and the image of Jesus as the Paschal Lamb. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm If it's so connected to Passover why are they not at the same time. Since we know he died at Passover it just seems rather odd to me. The have the Passover meal in the upper room, he dies a couple days later, and then we now celebrate on a completely different week? I celebrate Christmas and Easter with my in laws because it's when they celebrate Jesus birth and death, but it doesn't match up very well with what I've read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Where we live, there is understanding that not everyone is celebrating but that doesn't stop Christians from celebrating. We are allowed to say Merry Christmas etc. My friends who are not Christians are happy for us to celebrate, and some do the Santa thing etc. with their kids. Some have told me they really love to hear Christmas carols etc. The public entities call it "holiday" but they have a Christmas tree, Rudolphs, Santas, etc. at the official parties. Non-Christians participate by bringing their ethnic foods and wares, presenting dances, and generally having a good time along with everyone else. It isn't stiff or any of that. The radio is playing Christmas carols all day long. Decorations abound. And bells, good cheer, etc. If there are any scrooges, they are keeping quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 "They" decided on December 25, not because it was a good guess at the actual date, but in an effort to entice non Christians and in an effort to create more unity between Christians and pagans. The question I ask myself is how God feels about it. I used the pronoun ~they~ in my sentence so I didn't keep repeating ~the Church.~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 If it's so connected to Passover why are they not at the same time. Since we know he died at Passover it just seems rather odd to me. The have the Passover meal in the upper room, he dies a couple days later, and then we now celebrate on a completely different week? I celebrate Christmas and Easter with my in laws because it's when they celebrate Jesus birth and death, but it doesn't match up very well with what I've read. Christ instructed his followers to memorialize his death and that date is recorded and the date can be calculated on our modern calendar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 If it's so connected to Passover why are they not at the same time. Since we know he died at Passover it just seems rather odd to me. The have the Passover meal in the upper room, he dies a couple days later, and then we now celebrate on a completely different week? I celebrate Christmas and Easter with my in laws because it's when they celebrate Jesus birth and death, but it doesn't match up very well with what I've read. Have you read the Catholic Encyclopedia article I linked in my post? The explanation is way too lengthy and off-topic for this thread to quote it adequately here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 yes - I do see it. I live in a fairly liberal area. I've seen lawsuits over nativity scences are pretty staple. the last few years I have seen placards with an enormous santa to attract the attention of children on the side of the bus put out by some atheist organization directly attacking christmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 There is no evidence the earliest Christians---first century--attempted to calculate Christ's birth much less celebrate it. Early Chrstians specifically avoided birthday celebrations. Also those early Christians probably DID know his birth since the Jews kept accurate records of births and deaths until the temple was destroyed. And they were contemporaries of Jesus.....it is very likely they knew his birth month at least. The Church is a living organism. Once it was birthed, it had a time of development and growth. Not everything was there in the first century just like not everything is developed fully in a newborn infant. We can trust that God carried the Church through this time of development successfully, for Christ himself said that He would establish His Church and the gates of hell would never prevail against it. If it failed so quickly (as some believe), Christ really didn't do a very good job picking his disciples, did he? I don't know. That's a thought that kept coming to us as we converted to Orthodoxy anyway. Agreeing with you on the birthday thought -- it's not that birthdays were ever seen as "bad," but it's the day of one's death that is commemorated in the early church and you can see that still today. A saint's commemoration day is on the day they died, not the day they were born. My patron saint, for example, died on Jan. 2 and that's the day she's commemorated liturgically in the Church. Birthdays aren't forbidden, just not given the same place of honor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 yes - I do see it. I live in a fairly liberal area. I've seen lawsuits over nativity scences are pretty staple. the last few years I have seen placards with an enormous santa to attract the attention of children on the side of the bus put out by some atheist organization directly attacking christmas. Something like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Y'all have only been reasonable since 1963? I don't know. I need something with more history and tradition behind it. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 yes - I do see it. I live in a fairly liberal area. I've seen lawsuits over nativity scences are pretty staple. the last few years I have seen placards with an enormous santa to attract the attention of children on the side of the bus put out by some atheist organization directly attacking christmas. I'm sure there are people who engage in "Jack Chick"-style behavior among atheists as well as Christians. Do you have a link to a picture of the particular ad? BTW, it looks like at least one group is not only targeting Christmas or Christians http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/mar/18/american-atheists-advertising-jews-muslims ETA: I think I may have found it. Is it the "Keep the Merry" (picture of Santa) "Dump the Myth"( close up of the face of a carved crucifix)? http://nj1015.com/atheists-billboard-in-times-square-calling-jesus-a-myth-are-you-offended-poll/ Personally, I would agree that that's needlessly obnoxious, and, yes, this particular group seems to definitely prefer "Jack Chick"--style, based on a wide variety of their ads. Frankly, not impressed and wouldn't make me want to join their organization if I were atheist any more than Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell made me want to join their organizations when I was Christian. I'm not interested in that kind of attacking and negative mindset from anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I've seen lawsuits over nativity scences are pretty staple. I did see one of those years ago in a small town near where I grew up. They had to move the nativity from the court house to a nearby location on private property. After a few years they quietly put it back where it always was before along with some more secular holiday decorations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I did see one of those years ago in a small town near where I grew up. They had to move the nativity from the court house to a nearby location on private property. After a few years they quietly put it back where it always was before along with some more secular holiday decorations. Because breaking the law and/or ignoring court rulings is a good example and way to honor the birth of Jesus?????? Trying to understand their rationale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Because breaking the law and/or ignoring court rulings is a good example and way to honor the birth of Jesus?????? Trying to understand their rationale. I don't know. I wasn't there. I assume that the addition of other holiday decorations means they are in compliance because of the "Reindeer Rule." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Y'all have only been reasonable since 1963? I don't know. I need something with more history and tradition behind it. :D I know you mean this in a humorous way (are you mocking me? ;)), but it does apply to the discussion about whether or not this is a "war" on Christmas or Christianity or religion in general, or a rejection of an ideology supported by an Appeal To Tradition And Population. Clearly the organization's origins is what is referenced, not reason. Reason, as a means of exploring information and understanding reality predates Christianity, it has permeated the Christian culture, and is once again pushing its way through traditional social expectations (I suspect if the philosophers during the Enlightenment had the internet, none of us would be Christian today). By traditional social expectations I mean things like keeping quiet when the subject comes up because that's to "polite" thing to do. The idea of "new atheism" is just that - no longer keeping quiet when the subject comes up. I wonder if that's what's being referred to as this "war," and if "war" is a good word for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I don't see any "war" -- but I do see respect, pluralism, and an attempt to show kindness via tolerance for most people and their winter holidays. Maybe that means the "war" has been "lost" by Christmas. I don't think I mind at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Who will be doing this hate-crime-level mocking of Islam and other non-Christian faiths? Who is mocking Christianity RIGHT NOW? Examples please. And keep in mind that disagreeing with isn't the same as mocking. Nor is mocking specific people the same as mocking a religion. Needs to be said again and again and again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Who will be doing this hate-crime-level mocking of Islam and other non-Christian faiths? Who is mocking Christianity RIGHT NOW? Examples please. And keep in mind that disagreeing with isn't the same as mocking. Nor is mocking specific people the same as mocking a religion. Well, the American Atheists organization for one. (See photo posted by Albeto above for evidence, as well as link posted by KarenNC) They're mocking a religion, not specific people. Some might nitpick over the definition of and practices of "mocking," but, durnit, this ad definitely mocks the alleged unreasonabless of a religion made up of those who believe in Christ and the reason for the development of the Christmas celebration. No bones about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I don't see a war. I think some media figures are irrational. I think they have a large investment in creating some sort of hysteria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Christ and the reason for the development of the Christmas celebration. I want to address this specifically. If it wasn't a Christian celebration there would be another celebration to help pass the long winter months. Winter celebrations can be seen in almost all cultures around the world. It is a cold, dark time of year and a celebration helps lift moral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I don't know that I have ever seen Christian themed wrapping paper. I have and still do. This year we bought beautiful wrapping paper with angels on it. We have some "Noel" paper from last year as well and I *think* I have some with the nativity scene on it from previous years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I think there is a war b/t certain subsets of groups. The rest of us are trying to get along without upsetting anyone while staying true to our consciences--and it's getting more and more difficult to walk that line b/c those subsets and individuals w/in them are looking to point fingers. We celebrate Christmas as a cultural holiday b/c we feel we can't avoid it. We are Christians, but are probably similar to Scarlett in our beliefs about Christmas. I accidentally referred to the 4h party as a Christmas party though it is called a 'Holiday Party'. I'd appreciate (under those types of circumstances) if people would realize I do not intentionally seek to offend. I'm just tired. Can't win anyway b/c one group is upset if you don't use the word 'Christmas', the other is upset if you do! ETA: One year I had a Jewish mom tell me to stop calling it a holiday party already and just say Christmas party. I grow weary of trying to guess who will be offended by what... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I want to address this specifically. If it wasn't a Christian celebration there would be another celebration to help pass the long winter months. Winter celebrations can be seen in almost all cultures around the world. It is a cold, dark time of year and a celebration helps lift moral. Yes, this may be true, but in my post I was specifically addressing the photo that albeto posted which was definitely about the Christian Christmas. OKBud asked, "Who is mocking Christians right NOW?" and albeto's photos shows a group that is mocking the Christian faith and their celebration of Christmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I have and still do. This year we bought beautiful wrapping paper with angels on it. We have some "Noel" paper from last year as well and I *think* I have some with the nativity scene on it from previous years. Same here. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 There's entire treatises written on the subject, but I should probably do the quick and easy version because honestly a lot of it goes over my head. I trust the teaching of the church that was there, the one that was implementing and developing these liturgical commemorations. In the timeline of events, it was actually the conception of Christ that was determined first, liturgically. The early church established March 25th as Holy Annunciation and if you count forward nine months, you end up at December 25th, the birth of Christ. Of course there's more to it than that, but that's where the basis for Dec. 25th comes from. The early church fathers didn't think, "Oh no! Those awful pagans -- let's take over their festivals. Let's do the birth of Christ when they're celebrating something. Yeah, that'll show 'em." That's not how it worked. ;) No one in the Orthodox church supposes these dates are specific and actual. We allow for mystery in these things. But commemorating them is real and needful, so dates are set and commemorated. These practices are 1700 +/- years old and were followed for all those years until the Reformation, and some of the fallout from that. Eh, it's really not that far off from what they did. They just created a nifty back story to justify it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I want to address this specifically. If it wasn't a Christian celebration there would be another celebration to help pass the long winter months. Winter celebrations can be seen in almost all cultures around the world. It is a cold, dark time of year and a celebration helps lift moral. That reminds me. I love the Persian tradition of saving a watermelon in straw to eat on Yalda (winter solstice). It's a reminder of summer to come on one of the longest, coldest nights of the year. Way cool IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Well, the American Atheists organization for one. (See photo posted by Albeto above for evidence.) They're mocking a religion. Some might nitpick over the definition of and practices of "mocking," but, durnit, this ad definitely mocks the alleged unreasonabless of a religion made up of those who believe in Christ. To me this advertisement is an invitation to allow someone to finally accept what they know but keep pushing to the back of their brain because, well, "everyone knows this," or fear of eternal retribution. The whole point of atheists coming out of the closet, so to speak, is to give others who really don't believe the liberty of not pretending to believe. Not to themselves, not in their community. It's an invitation to freedom of thought in a way religion doesn't necessarily allow ("take captive your thoughts," "trust not on thy own understanding," "love the lord thy god with all they heart, mind, soul," etc). The point of this billboard is to address the fact that because the story of Jesus' birth has so many logical holes in it, someone who isn't quite sure they really do accept it on faith doesn't have to feel alone, or odd, or delusional for not accepting what those around them accept. But that's not "mockery," by any standard definition of the word. But maybe I'm misunderstanding. How do you define mockery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 We love Christmas at our house. BEST DAY OF THE YEAR!!! :hurray: Other people can have all the "wars" they want about it, but it's not going to have any effect on the way we celebrate. My son knows the Christian part of Christmas, but we mainly do the big, flashy commercialized version with lots of decorations and tons of presents. It's fun. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Eh, it's really not that far off from what they did. They just created a nifty back story to justify it. And yet our faith sees it the other way around (see linked article referenced above). It doesn't matter to me how/why/if people celebrate Christmas. But our reasons, as Orthodox Christians, for choosing to are not based on pagan practices. At all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Well, the American Atheists organization for one. (See photo posted by Albeto above for evidence.) They're mocking a religion. Some might nitpick over the definition of and practices of "mocking," but, durnit, this is ad definitely mocks of the alleged unreasonabless of a religion made up of those who believe in Christ. I agree that the American Atheists seem to have a goal of mocking all religions (not just Christianity), much the way Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and many, many Christian pundits/ministers/etc seem to have a goal of mocking all other religions, they just haven't been doing it in as visible a way until much more recently. Unfortunately, with freedom of speech for people I consider reasonable and interested in engaging in productive, civil discourse regardless of religious affiliation (none of the above, imo), we also get freedom of speech for the rest. It's no different than political attack ads and smear campaigns. Tell me what is good/beneficial/etc about your position, not your view of what is bad about somebody else's. I'm more interested in what you are for and how you benefit society than what you are against. Now, if you want to talk about a religion being mocked/ignored/not represented in the public sphere, try being a Hellenic Neopagan ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I think there is a war b/t certain subsets of groups. The rest of us are trying to get along without upsetting anyone while staying true to our consciences--and it's getting more and more difficult to walk that line b/c those subsets and individuals w/in them are looking to point fingers. We celebrate Christmas as a cultural holiday b/c we feel we can't avoid it. We are Christians, but are probably similar to Scarlett in our beliefs about Christmas. I accidentally referred to the 4h party as a Christmas party though it is called a 'Holiday Party'. I'd appreciate (under those types of circumstances) if people would realize I do not intentionally seek to offend. I'm just tired. Can't win anyway b/c one group is upset if you don't use the word 'Christmas', the other is upset if you do! ETA: One year I had a Jewish mom tell me to stop calling it a holiday party already and just say Christmas party. I grow weary of trying to guess who will be offended by what... I agree about how impossible it is to not offend someone at some point. FTR, I am not offended by a store employee saying merry Christmas to me...I say ty and move on. They don't know me and aren't a bit interested in my religious beliefs at that moment. I am irritated when someone who has known me for 40 years gives me a Christmas present....that is rare, but I did have a MIL who loved to give me a present and then AFTER I was using it tell me it was my Christmas present. Shanvan I am curious why you feel you can't avoid celebrating Christmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 To me this advertisement is an invitation to allow someone to finally accept what they know but keep pushing to the back of their brain because, well, "everyone knows this," or fear of eternal retribution. The whole point of atheists coming out of the closet, so to speak, is to give others who really don't believe the liberty of not pretending to believe. Not to themselves, not in their community. It's an invitation to freedom of thought in a way religion doesn't necessarily allow ("take captive your thoughts," "trust not on thy own understanding," "love the lord thy god with all they heart, mind, soul," etc). The point of this billboard is to address the fact that because the story of Jesus' birth has so many logical holes in it, someone who isn't quite sure they really do accept it on faith doesn't have to feel alone, or odd, or delusional for not accepting what those around them accept. But that's not "mockery," by any standard definition of the word. But maybe I'm misunderstanding. How do you define mockery? Respectfully I think one can be an atheist while not putting MYTH over religious images. I think if one was truly wanting mutual respect and discourse they would not use religious images at all. *shrug* To me the question is whether the atheist believes in the absence of religion or if they are anti-religion. (and those come across very differently) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Hmmm, mockery involves ridicule. I do see that ad (and the others like it, especially the one KarenNC posted) as one filled with ridicule. If that's not the intent, the ad campaign needs to be tweaked because that's how it's coming across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I agree about how impossible it is to not offend someone at some point. FTR, I am not offended by a store employee saying merry Christmas to me...I say ty and move on. They don't know me and aren't a bit interested in my religious beliefs at that moment. I am irritated when someone who has known me for 40 years gives me a Christmas present....that is rare, but I did have a MIL who loved to give me a present and then AFTER I was using it tell me it was my Christmas present. Shanvan I am curious why you feel you can't avoid celebrating Christmas. Very complicated list of reasons. High on that list are relatives who would feel alienated and a wish to maintain relations with extended family. Then there are the professional and educational acquaintances (4h leaders, class teachers, etc.) and parties that become difficult to avoid. Also, retailers make it so that many of the best deals on clothing and household items are at this time of year. More, but I've got to get back to work so I can post in Jean's 'tackle' thread and don't look like a total slacker. If it weren't for Dh, I probably wouldn't go along with all of it, but I can see his points---at times, anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 And yet our faith sees it the other way around (see linked article referenced above). It doesn't matter to me how/why/if people celebrate Christmas. But our reasons, as Orthodox Christians, for choosing to are not based on pagan practices. At all. Your personal reasons? Correct. Those who provided you with the justifications for your reasons? Incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I don't think it's difficult to find examples of people mocking Christianity and religion in general. And yes, I do know what that word means. One example: the Zombie Jesus meme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Somewhat. Not directly - but only because we homeschool one and the other attends a private school. There has been an incident or two, pretty locally, of humanist/atheist groups attempting to stop local public schools from singing christmas carols and referring to the holiday. It cause a pretty tizzy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Respectfully I think one can be an atheist while not putting MYTH over religious images. I think if one was truly wanting mutual respect and discourse they would not use religious images at all. *shrug* In my "ideal" world I wouldn't have to see the hellfire and damnation billboards, or the infamous Uncle Sam billboard when going up I5 (or any billboard for that matter, visual blights that they are), but there's that freedom of speech thing. But to be fair, from my POV most religions are based on a mythological element (I say "most" because I'm not familiar with all), and I think most Christians would, if pressed, agree with that terminology, particularly when talking about polytheistic religions. I don't see "myth" as negative -- after all, it's broader definition often explicitly includes religious tradition -- although I readily concede that some do. This is where Bill would come in and rail against the definition of "myth" as a generic term for a false belief. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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