s/o Those of you that think gas prices should equal Europe's

[SKL]

I think it boils down to - at present, driving a car (or otherwise utilizing fuel for commuting) is not a luxury in the US, for most of us it is a necessity.  You can't change that fact just by placing a fat tax on fuel.

 

I work at home most of the time, but I still need to drive.  My kids' school is five miles away, and they don't have bus service.  (Even the public school is a few miles away.)  And their sports stuff is about 15 miles in the other direction.  Yes, we could cut the extracurriculars or quit the school.  Is that going to make the world a better place?  Very debatable.

 

Most people in my area drive 10-70 miles each way to get to work every day.  Except in dense city areas, the bus stops are miles away from homes.  And I don't think we need to be walking for miles in knee-deep snow in the dark twice a day just to prove we are environmentally conscious.  City planners should have thought of that before they created all this urban sprawl.

[Jane in NC]

 

Although I cannot complain.  I've had my car 14 years and I haven't sat down to figure out what it's cost me, but I still think I'm making out verses having to call cabs all the time.

 

This is probably true if you are not in a major metropolitan area in which you have to pay to park your car.  I live in a small town that caters to tourists.  Cabs that take me to "real world" stores or medical professionals would add up quickly.  Nonetheless, I prefer to ride my bike when I can around my little town for minor errands. 

[SKL]

And I'm sure someone upthread already mentioned this (I can't read all the comments), but you know a large percentage of the working poor / unemployed are going to drop out of the work force because it will cost more to get to work than they will earn (after you figure in all the available subsidies for poor people).  And that would mean a shrinking economy.  While I don't always agree with the government "stimulating the economy" by encouraging people to buy things they don't need, I wouldn't want to go too far in the other direction.

[SKL]

Maybe, but in my area they take the bus.  The bus doesn't go a ton of places, but it goes up and down the "main drag" which is filled with stores and businesses.  So ideal for people working in those places.

 

Unless buses are exempt from fuel taxes, the bus fare will go up too.  It ain't that cheap to begin with around here.

[LisaKinVA]

Amsterdam also has an extensive tram system, the GVB, which also includes busses and ferries. They use them when they need to. Stops are plentiful and routes are good. I wonder if a dr. In Amsterdam would consider biking a strenuous activity, though? They could also ride as aassenger on someone's back bike rack/seat.

 

I sure hope they use taxis to get to the hospital when their babies are on the way, though!

 

Having biked while 8 mos. pregnant...I vote yup...very strenuous activity ;)  Between the contractions and pelvic floor pain, I wouldn't recommend it (haha).  It also requires quite a bit of balance...having fallen down the stairs more frequently than I'd like to admit (while pregnant, too), I can't imagine biking much past the 2nd trimester.  (this is more to be funny than serious).  

[SKL]

Oh, and I don't see how anyone can think that car owners do not realize the cost of car ownership.  Unless someone else is paying their bills....

[Jane in NC]

OH!  But wait you live in NC?  Weather is milder there isn't it?

 

Indeed.  But weather has not stopped bike culture from growing in cities in Colorado.  Financial blogger Mr. Money Mustache has written a good deal about bike commuting.

 

[SKL]

I think I'd be PO'd if my government was taxing the crap out of drivers, regardless.  I'm surprised people accept it quietly in other countries.

[SKL]

I invite all bike-over-car proponents to come spend a winter riding their bikes to work in the snow belt along the southern shore of Lake Erie.  And then let's talk again in May of 2014.  :)

[SKL]

That reminds me, I need to check to see if my kids have a snow day at school today....

[Jane in NC]

Oh, and I don't see how anyone can think that car owners do not realize the cost of car ownership.  Unless someone else is paying their bills....

 

Really?  Many people don't understand that a vehicle costs $20,000 and not $299 per month.  I know people who say that the cost of a trip by car is a "tank of gas".  They don't consider maintenance costs, insurance.

 

The corporate reimbursement for mileage is currently $0.565 per mile.  I suspect that most people view their driving trips in terms of fuel cost per mile.

[SKL]

Really?  Many people don't understand that a vehicle costs $20,000 and not $299 per month.  I know people who say that the cost of a trip by car is a "tank of gas".  They don't consider maintenance costs, insurance.

 

The corporate reimbursement for mileage is currently $0.565 per mile.  I suspect that most people view their driving trips in terms of fuel cost per mile.

 

I think you underestimate people.  When they decide whether or not it's worth paying thousands of dollars for a car, they think an inch or two past their noses.

 

But yeah, once you have a car, you have a sunk cost to some extent.  It's not like the car is gonna last 100 years if you let it sit there and never drive or maintain it.  It's not like you don't have to buy liability insurance if you only drive once a month or even once a year.

 

[Jane in NC]

I think I'd be PO'd if my government was taxing the crap out of drivers, regardless.  I'm surprised people accept it quietly in other countries.

What do you think about eliminating government subsidies to the oil industry?  It is these subsidies that contribute to the lower cost of fuel in the US.  Forget tax increases. Would you be happy with a true free market in the energy sector?

 

(I raised this issue with dairy price supports upthread.  Do you want the government to get out of the food price support business too?  Will you be happy when milk prices rise to $7 a gallon as expected when the Farm Bill expires?)

[SKL]

Oh well, I guess we do nee Big Brother to tell us what to do if we don't even realize it costs money to own a car.  (Obviously I believe this is a false premise.)

 

Now I gotta go burn up some fuel to get my kids to school.

[SKL]

What do you think about eliminating government subsidies to the oil industry?  It is these subsidies that contribute to the lower cost of fuel in the US.  Forget tax increases. Would you be happy with a true free market in the energy sector?

 

(I raised this issue with dairy price supports upthread.  Do you want the government to get out of the food price support business too?  Will you be happy when milk prices rise to $7 a gallon as expected when the Farm Bill expires?)

 

How about the government gets out of health care and a few other things while we're at it?  Sounds great to me.  And they can stop pouring money into inefficient "alternative energy" projects, too.

[LisaKinVA]

I grew up in California...where public transportation was both pretty convenient and fairly inexpensive.  I regularly rode the bus by walking about a mile to the stop to the destination of my choice (friends who lived in a more urban area, Taco Bell, Thrifty's for a 25 cent ice cream cone, and even learned how to take it to Santa Cruz).  I would never have ridden a bike on that route, though...

 

We moved to just outside of Atlanta, you had to drive to a Park & Ride to get onto a metrobus...we moved to S. Florida, I still have no idea where the closest public transportation was (pretty sure it existed, just don't know how I would have gotten to a stop), I did however live within walking distance to grocery/work, and within bike distance.  

 

I moved to Central VA...while a poor college student I *did* walk many places, I wouldn't recommend it (I didn't have a car, and the school bus route just didn't run when I needed it to, so I walked the 5 miles to work quite frequently...thankfully, I usually had a ride back after closing).  I moved to DC...public transportation, pretty much everywhere, until I got a job in the ex-urbs...and got a car.  

 

Then moved to the southern part of No.VA...public transportation STINKS.  And most of the roads were developed along old trail roads (no real planning).  And, when our county was facing congestion issues with roads their bright idea was to (a) limit home sites to a minimum of 3 acres to reduce the number of people who could live there and to (b) authorize tons of local shopping centers (which cannot be supported because of a lack of people living there), and as a bonus -- most of the congestion is due to shipping traffic (large trucks) who use the main road to get from the western side of the state to the 95 corridor.  The truck traffic has only increased.  But, we have a lot of empty shopping spaces, and a very high turnover of small business opening and closing!  The city and two counties can't agree on anything (to be fair, usually the city is the big problem...refusing to develop a cooperative urban taxation plan, to promote the development of businesses and roads to better connect things.  The EPA has gotten in the way of the much needed additional bridge across the river (to make the shopping corridor viable, and reduce congestion), and local citizens were able to squash the proposed by-pass to remove thru-traffic from the areas highly congested highway/intersection...mix in historic preservation that nixed the creation of an efficient cloverleaf and road widening on another thoroughfare (and dangerous/congested intersection) and it gets mighty muddled.

 

Change has to be made, and it needs to be made incrementally.  However, I'm also in the "not trusting of gov't" camp with the corruption, inefficiency, waste, and abuses I've seen.  I think more people would support these changes if they actually BELIEVED the money would go to what it was supposed to.  But, we've seen time and again our taxes increased for good reasons, only to have the money spent elsewhere, or to increase the number of administrators (how many vice principals does a school seriously need?) 

 

I now live in Italy -- and in the area we're staying, you can't walk safely to markets and restaurants...the sidewalks are overgrown with thorny weeds (learned that one the hard way), there are no working street lights in many places, and things like stop signs and speed limits are suggestions ;)  IF one lives in the downtown areas, you can easily walk to things -- but there are trade-offs (noise and space being two of them).  I will also say that most of the local drivers -- while they are CRAZY -- are much better drivers than their US counterparts.  I think they are always on "alert" for those crazies wearing their dark colors (black and grey are very popular) walking in the middle of the unlit street at night...

 

The culture is also different, children live at home until they are married, they stuff people into tiny cars like clowns (seated on top of one another), and generally ignore seat-belt and child-restraint laws.  If your body fits in the vehicle, you're good to go.  I haven't seen any lack of consumerism...no one on a bicycle (Vespas/motorcycles, yes), but you will occasionally have a traffic jam due to sheep and cows crossing the road, or hit the brakes because someone is taking their horse for a ride on the highway (holding onto the horse's reigns while driving their car).  It's a wild mish-mash of cultures here in Naples.

[Jane in NC]

Too bad they don't subsidize rib eye steaks so they cost 99 cents per pound.  LOL

 

But government does subsidize the beef industry.  Your rib eyes would cost a lot more without corn subsidies (assuming you are buying non-grass fed), water projects, etc. 

 

That darn government just can't keep its hands out of everyone's business.  ;)

 

[Word Nerd]

(I raised this issue with dairy price supports upthread. Do you want the government to get out of the food price support business too? Will you be happy when milk prices rise to $7 a gallon as expected when the Farm Bill expires?)

Prices for milk will go up if there is no new farm bill (or yet another extension) because we would revert to permanent farm law from the 1940s. It wouldn't get rid of the price supports for dairy--it would actually make them significantly bigger. The government would be buying milk, butter, and cheese at double the going rate or more. As more producers opt to sell to the government rather than commercial markets, it would decrease the commercial supply and raise prices for dairy overall.

[Jane in NC]

Prices for milk will go up if there is no new farm bill (or yet another extension) because we would revert to permanent farm law from 1940s. It wouldn't get rid of the price supports for dairy--it would actually make them significantly bigger. The government would be buying milk, butter, and cheese at double the going rate or more. As more producers opt to sell to the government rather than commercial markets, it would decrease the commercial supply and raise prices for dairy overall.

 

Thank you for the clarification.  I should have read more about this instead of just hearing the headlines.  :o

[LisaKinVA]

Well they aren't subsidizing it enough!  LOL

 

I think it is ok to subsidize food.  It's such an absolute basic need for everyone irregardless that I think it does support the common good.

 

I don't tend to buy grass fed.  Although you know what is nuts.  One of my local supermarkets offers grass fed beef products that are far cheaper than the regular stuff and it's imported from Australia!  I don't buy it though.  It feels weird to me to buy beef imported from that far away when we have plenty of beef here.  (No offense to the Australians and their beef.)

 

You should know, that huge portions of Australia are better suited to cattle ranching than farming --  trying to grow grain for cows would be much more environmentally destructive (not that cows were made to eat such a high percentage of grain anyhow...).

 

:D

[Dory]

I invite all bike-over-car proponents to come spend a winter riding their bikes to work in the snow belt along the southern shore of Lake Erie.  And then let's talk again in May of 2014.  :)

 

lol You can always send them up here. We have people not able to walk out there back doors already because the snow drifts are blocked the doorway.

 

amen

 

Pretty hard to bike in a foot of snow.  Hell it's difficult to walk in that. 

 

We have a few hardcore enthusiasts who will pull our there bikes a couple times during the winter but even they can't get around most the time. If the buses can't even get the kids to school here for a week at a time sometimes in the winter (this past week for example), how on earth would a bike get a person anywhere. Biking in the winter for areas that get lots of snow isn't practical. It is a part time solution for the summer at best.

[poppy]

Every time it snows here in Boston, I'm pretty happy to have a transit line to work instead of having to drive in.

 

Well they aren't subsidizing it enough!  LOL

 

I think it is ok to subsidize food.  It's such an absolute basic need for everyone irregardless that I think it does support the common good.

 

I don't tend to buy grass fed.  Although you know what is nuts.  One of my local supermarkets offers grass fed beef products that are far cheaper than the regular stuff and it's imported from Australia!  I don't buy it though.  It feels weird to me to buy beef imported from that far away when we have plenty of beef here.  (No offense to the Australians and their beef.)

 

You pay more to eat factory farm meat? That's nuts!

 

Of course it's OK to subsidize food, but, by far the #1 subsidy is corn.  HFCS is the #1 source of calories in America.  And corn is cheap due to artificial government machinations and lobbying, not due to anything specific about corn.  Basically the food policy supports soda (corn), burgers (corn) and refined grain buns (wheat is the #2 subsidy). That's the way it is now, and most people seem fine with it. Until the topic of the obesity epidemic comes up, and the cost of healthcare. And "personal responsibility" to eat healthy foods -- which artificially cost much more than junk food.

[mommaduck]

My husband is a trucker. The industry is already short over 100k in drivers and losing more every year...mostly due to the constantly changing federal regulations. Increase fuel prices to European levels and I can tell you exactly what would happen: this country would come to a near stand still. More truckers would quit. Trucking expenses are already high and price gouging truckers is a huge problem. Increase that and they can't afford to run. That, or you can expect the cost of goods to skyrocket (and of course, no one wants to consider that).

[Meriwether]

I'd have no problem doing away with subsidies; I'm against them on principle. I do think artificially raising the price through taxes on gas to "force" change is obnoxious.

 

Our small city has a bus system and taxis. When my friend's van quit on her, she still had to get her daughter to gymnastics four evenings a week. They walked to the bus stop and took the bus and did the reverse on the way home. My friend didn't mind using public transport. In fact she liked that her daughter was learning how. But it cost 2.10/ person/destination. It cost her 8.40 for a ten mile round trip. When we got a different vehicle 6 weeks ago, we decided not to trade in our vehicle so she could use it.She has been happy to borrow it and not have to depend solely on public transportation. 

[Haiku]

But the problem is some seem to insist you have to make people miserable to make that happen and you just don't. 

 

But people who walk or bike or take public transit in Europe aren't miserable (in general; I know there are miserable people everywhere). It's normal to them, not miserable. I actually LOVED the freedom of not having to pay for or maintain a car and being able to just hop on the train and get where I wanted mostly stress-free. I was determined to make life without a car work when I moved back to the States, but reality hit me pretty hard pretty quick when I got back. I actually consider the lack of good public transit one of the worst aspects of American life. Just because something is done differently does not mean it is worse. As long as people are completely closed to change, the incremental changes needed to avoid a cliff won't happen, and then we will hit the cliff, which will be miserable.

 

I lived in a small town 9 km from a major city. We had everything we needed in our small town: grocery stores, clothing stores, doctors, pharmacies, parks, library, etc, all within walking distance in a cute little town center. If we chose to shop at a store or see a doctor not in our town, it was a quick walk or bike ride to the train station. Trains came every 15 minutes. 10 minutes to the city. Hop on a tram to get wherever you need to go in the city. Quicker, easier, less expensive, and less stressful than driving, fighting traffic, finding and paying for parking, etc. People with kids put them in strollers that were much easier to maneuver than the "baby tanks" people wheel their kids around in here. A mom with three young kids might have two in a nice stroller and one in a sling/baby carrier. The older ones would walk. Toddlers and preschoolers are well-trained in walking to the train station and it's not an issue for them. It's just normal. People used a lot more wheeled carts to tote stuff around. If there was a far-away store with specialty items, a once-a-month trip, or a carpooled trip, was planned. Most people I knew actually had cars, they just had one per family and didn't take them out every day. One of the greatest things I witnessed in Europe was an in-shower hot water heater that only heats the water you're actually running. WAY more efficient than a hot water heater tank. Why don't we have those here? But then again, in America we can't even get people to use reusable shopping bags. Where I lived in Europe some stores charged you (a lot) to take a disposable bag and some simply didn't offer them. Can you imagine your local supermarket doing away with disposable bags and the fit people would pitch??

 

ETA: Another thing I found in Europe was that people had appropriate clothing for the weather. If it was raining, they put on rubber boots, a rain slicker, and a rain hat or carried an umbrella. If it snowed they had snow pants, a warm jacket, boots, hat, and gloves. If it was hot, they wore one outfit while walking/biking and changed into another when they reached their destination. These things were considered normal and no one was put out by it. People around here complain about driving to the grocery in the rain. I mean, if that's not spoiled, what is?

 

[La Condessa]

Okay, everyone keeps saying that the U.S. government keeps gas prices artificially low by subsidizing oil, but there was a graph linked near the beginning of the thread showing that the base cost of gas here is similar to that in other countries, but the taxes heaped on top of that were significantly lower. So, which is it? Does anyone have some sources for me to read?

[La Condessa]

Dp

[unsinkable]

I invite all bike-over-car proponents to come spend a winter riding their bikes to work in the snow belt along the southern shore of Lake Erie. And then let's talk again in May of 2014. :)

Snerkle.

 

I'm in lake effect land myself. NE shore. A WSW wind can blow almost along the entire fetch of the lake and result in snowfall of over a foot an hour. And yes, some people still have to get to work.

[SKL]

But people who walk or bike or take public transit in Europe aren't miserable (in general; I know there are miserable people everywhere). It's normal to them, not miserable. I actually LOVED the freedom of not having to pay for or maintain a car and being able to just hop on the train and get where I wanted mostly stress-free. I was determined to make life without a car work when I moved back to the States, but reality hit me pretty hard pretty quick when I got back. I actually consider the lack of good public transit one of the worst aspects of American life. Just because something is done differently does not mean it is worse. As long as people are completely closed to change, the incremental changes needed to avoid a cliff won't happen, and then we will hit the cliff, which will be miserable.

 

I lived in a small town 9 km from a major city. We had everything we needed in our small town: grocery stores, clothing stores, doctors, pharmacies, parks, library, etc, all within walking distance in a cute little town center. If we chose to shop at a store or see a doctor not in our town, it was a quick walk or bike ride to the train station. Trains came every 15 minutes. 10 minutes to the city. Hop on a tram to get wherever you need to go in the city. Quicker, easier, less expensive, and less stressful than driving, fighting traffic, finding and paying for parking, etc. People with kids put them in strollers that were much easier to maneuver than the "baby tanks" people wheel their kids around in here. A mom with three young kids might have two in a nice stroller and one in a sling/baby carrier. The older ones would walk. Toddlers and preschoolers are well-trained in walking to the train station and it's not an issue for them. It's just normal. People used a lot more wheeled carts to tote stuff around. If there was a far-away store with specialty items, a once-a-month trip, or a carpooled trip, was planned. Most people I knew actually had cars, they just had one per family and didn't take them out every day. One of the greatest things I witnessed in Europe was an in-shower hot water heater that only heats the water you're actually running. WAY more efficient than a hot water heater tank. Why don't we have those here? But then again, in America we can't even get people to use reusable shopping bags. Where I lived in Europe some stores charged you (a lot) to take a disposable bag and some simply didn't offer them. Can you imagine your local supermarket doing away with disposable bags and the fit people would pitch??

 

 

If my (suburban city) neighborhood were planned like that, I'd love to walk everywhere.  However, my nearest corner store is over a mile away, as is the nearest bus stop (in a different direction).  The nearest grocery (still another direction) is 2 miles, the zoned elementary school farther than that.  The nearest park is 1 mile, the rec center - in fact, everything that isn't a private home is over a mile away.  And as noted previously, knee deep snow makes it seem a heck of a lot farther.  Especially if you have babies who can't walk etc.  If the government wants us to drive less, the government is going to have to build efficient neighborhoods and efficient transportation systems first.  Or put some money into fixing up the neighborhoods that exist in the concentrated cities, which are essentially uninhabitable.  Don't make a thing impossible and then fine people for not doing it.

 

 

[SKL]

Snerkle.

 

I'm in lake effect land myself. NE shore. A WSW wind can blow almost along the entire length of the lake and result in snowfall of over a foot an hour. And yes, some people still have to get to work.

 

When I was a teen, I commuted to college daily in that neck of the woods.  Before the days of cell phones.  Many were the days I thought my frozen body would be pulled out of the ditch after the thaw.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

The cost of an actual gallon of fuel is set on the global exchange markets.  What taxes any nation adds on top is the big difference.  Whether the US wants European-level infrastructure will depend on whether we are willing to pay for it.  Historically, the answer has been "meh."

 

 

Sorry, 2005 is the first graph I grabbed.  The point is the same, tho.

 

 

mmconde -- That was me (sorry, screwed up the quote link).  If you want to totally geek out on numbers, check the OECD site.  Wiki breaks it down a little better, but Wiki is not the be-all of trustworthy data.

 

Edit -- found a better link -- Economist.  Similar graph.

[unsinkable]

When I was a teen, I commuted to college daily in that neck of the woods. Before the days of cell phones. Many were the days I thought my frozen body would be pulled out of the ditch after the thaw.

That made me shudder. God forbid.

[Julie Smith]

On the topic of bikes. (I haven't finished this thread, so sorry if bikes is no longer the topic)

 

A man in the US sells a wonderful, may I even say the cadilac of bikes. Right now the cost is 1275. 

 

http://www.madsencycles.com/

 

I use to drool over this bike. 

 

Fits people 5" to 6"6. 

40 gallon bucket that can come with two bench seats. (If I remember correct can fit 4 kids)

 

Well you can take a look yourself. I use to drool over this bike. 

 

:)

[Mergath]

I'd have no problem doing away with subsidies; I'm against them on principle. I do think artificially raising the price through taxes on gas to "force" change is obnoxious.

 

Our small city has a bus system and taxis. When my friend's van quit on her, she still had to get her daughter to gymnastics four evenings a week. They walked to the bus stop and took the bus and did the reverse on the way home. My friend didn't mind using public transport. In fact she liked that her daughter was learning how. But it cost 2.10/ person/destination. It cost her 8.40 for a ten mile round trip. When we got a different vehicle 6 weeks ago, we decided not to trade in our vehicle so she could use it.She has been happy to borrow it and not have to depend solely on public transportation. 

 

In most places with decent public transportation, the people who need to use the bus daily can buy a pass for the month that gives them unlimited rides.  Where I used to live, you could buy a pass for thirty bucks a month (and they had assistance for low income people) or if you were a student, you could swipe your student ID and ride for free. 

[Mergath]

 

 

ETA: Another thing I found in Europe was that people had appropriate clothing for the weather. If it was raining, they put on rubber boots, a rain slicker, and a rain hat or carried an umbrella. If it snowed they had snow pants, a warm jacket, boots, hat, and gloves. If it was hot, they wore one outfit while walking/biking and changed into another when they reached their destination. These things were considered normal and no one was put out by it. People around here complain about driving to the grocery in the rain. I mean, if that's not spoiled, what is?

 

We live in Minnesota, and in the winter I'll put dd on a long sled and pull her to the grocery store.  You should see the looks the other moms give me. :P  

[8circles]

I'm not against public transport.  I've lived in europe & think having that level of public transport would be divine.

 

I live in a rural suburb.  DH has a 45 minute commute, highway.  Higher gas prices scare me.  WHen I think about how much we as a society would have to change in order to change the future, it just seems insurmountable.

 

I would love to hear some real, do-able solutions that I could do.  

[Mergath]

Here it is $65 a month.  The only reduction they offer is for disabled persons.

 

It's been over five years since I bought a bus pass, so I'm sure the price has gone up somewhat since then.  

[Catwoman]

I invite all bike-over-car proponents to come spend a winter riding their bikes to work in the snow belt along the southern shore of Lake Erie.  And then let's talk again in May of 2014.  :)

You're assuming, of course, that they would actually live to tell the tale. :D

[Haiku]

If the government wants us to drive less, the government is going to have to build efficient neighborhoods and efficient transportation systems first.

 

Or, as a people, we could decide that WE want to drive less and demand that the private sector accommodate our desires. We don't have to cede this power to the government. We could make it happen ourselves, if we really wanted it. The first step would be to stop shopping at stores that contribute to urban sprawl and drain jobs and money from the cities.

[Murphy101]

Maybe, but in my area they take the bus. The bus doesn't go a ton of places, but it goes up and down the "main drag" which is filled with stores and businesses. So ideal for people working in those places.

Here the only people who take the bus are the impoverished disabled and the very old who can't drive. And it pretty much only takes them to the nearest grocery store, hospital, dr row and back to their subsidized housing. And it's expensive. Most don't use it unless they really need to. They just stay home and hope charities bring them food.

 

As it is now it is $2 one way (no transfers). You can save by buying monthly swipers or multiple ride cards. I think that's expensive enough!

It is expensive! You consider minimum wage is approx $7.50, that's $4 every day just to get to and from work. That's a hefty % of income.

 

I think you underestimate people. When they decide whether or not it's worth paying thousands of dollars for a car, they think an inch or two past their noses.

 

But yeah, once you have a car, you have a sunk cost to some extent. It's not like the car is gonna last 100 years if you let it sit there and never drive or maintain it. It's not like you don't have to buy liability insurance if you only drive once a month or even once a year.

 

Sadly I'm with jane in NC on this one. The vast majority of people do not look at the cost of the vehicle, much less the cost of maintence. They look at one number: monthly payments. I think it's ridiculous and foolish, but that's true all the same. Ask any dealer.

 

What do you think about eliminating government subsidies to the oil industry? It is these subsidies that contribute to the lower cost of fuel in the US. Forget tax increases. Would you be happy with a true free market in the energy sector?

If they were heavily regulated with firm over sight, yes. I have no desire to see common people reduced to candles and the wealthy having 24/7 power.

 

(I raised this issue with dairy price supports upthread. Do you want the government to get out of the food price support business too? Will you be happy when milk prices rise to $7 a gallon as expected when the Farm Bill expires?)

In general I'm not for any corporate subsidies. I don't think they work as they should. I think if subsidies are going to happen, it should happen with individuals, not corporations.

 

I'd love to see subsidies for home owners to put in veggie gardens for example. Or raise chickens.

 

Also, I can live without milk and my dh can get to work without milk. I see no value in subsidizing milk or corn. They are not greater life necessities over any other food product.

 

I've always thought the comparison of a gallon of milk to a gallon of fuel to be ignorant. I can choose to just not drink milk any time I want or need to and not have my life of livelihood ruined. I cannot choose to just not use fuel.

 

ETA: Not calling you ignorant and didn't think you were making that comparison. It's just one I've heard frequently and personally find annoying. ;)

[Murphy101]

Or, as a people, we could decide that WE want to drive less and demand that the private sector accommodate our desires. We don't have to cede this power to the government. We could make it happen ourselves, if we really wanted it. The first step would be to stop shopping at stores that contribute to urban sprawl and drain jobs and money from the cities.

Hmmm. Idk. The main city here is constantly talking about revitalizing downtown. Downtown freaking sucks. Most people hate going there and avoid it. But they keep putting crap down there anyways. New baseball stadium, performing arts center... Blahblahblah.

 

1. The driving and parking is evil. Most of the roads suck and are one way. It's like being a mouse with blinders on in a maze without cheese. And the parking is expensive and very limited.

 

2. The vast majority of the city is not built around our downtown. Downtown is actually way over on north side by the dirty river and smelly factories and airport. Which made perfect sense in the early 1900s when those were the center of life here. But now it just isn't and there's no going back in time to make it so. Even if every mayor there insists that if they just spend about 10 billion dollars (I forget the actual numbers) it will happen.

 

3. The city has taxed everyone out of wanting to live there. It is MUCH cheaper to live in outlying 'burbs. My property tax is a lot less for one thing. Our roads are better. And the commute to just about anywhere in the city is 25 minutes or less. Even downtown.

 

4. Most of the outlying cities are starting to build there own "downtowns" that meet all the same needs and more. I could go weeks or even months never driving downtown in the main city. So while these suburbs sprawl can be a problem, they are working to solve some of those issues. The thing I'd like to see is a LOT more acceptance of agriculture in city life. People wanting manicured lawn look is fine I suppose. (I'm mighty proud of my first attempt at landscaping!) but when people move out to the country then get their knickers in a twist bc their neighbor has chickens or cows, I sorta want to smack the idiots up side the head. Likewise when someone develops a way to save energy or us alternative energy and their neighbor complains it's not pretty and needs taken down, yeah. Same sentiment. (Case in point my boys made the tin can solar heat generator. I didn't think it looked all that bad. The first attempt and all that iykwim. We hadn't even set it up and my neighbor walking her dog commented that's why she wished we had a legally binding HOA here. I responded that we purposely bought in a no HOA neighborhood bc of people like her. The conversation actually went nicer than that, but that was the gist of it.)

 

Anyways.. Rambled some... Oh well. Posting anyways.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Here it is $65 a month.  The only reduction they offer is for disabled persons.

 

13 years ago, my rail commute into NYC ran almost $450 month for train and ferry, and I didn't have to use any subways.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Or, as a people, we could decide that WE want to drive less and demand that the private sector accommodate our desires. We don't have to cede this power to the government. We could make it happen ourselves, if we really wanted it. The first step would be to stop shopping at stores that contribute to urban sprawl and drain jobs and money from the cities.

 

This old Thomas Friedman op ed says essentially the same thing -- change will only be bottom-up.  Unfortunately for the plan he cites, hybrids taxis didn't fare well with NYC abuse, but they're still around, as are CNG and hybrid buses.

 

Via Motors is rolling out hybrid full-size trucks, but because of scale and price, it'll only be fleet sales at first ($70K for a pickup means Jay Leno gets one, at least).  In a few years, the used market will start to blossom with more off-lease Teslas and other vehicles, so slowly....slowly.

[Laura Corin]

But people who walk or bike or take public transit in Europe aren't miserable (in general; I know there are miserable people everywhere). It's normal to them, not miserable. I actually LOVED the freedom of not having to pay for or maintain a car and being able to just hop on the train and get where I wanted mostly stress-free. 

 

I had a car for one year between the ages of 21 and 22.  Then I didn't have a car again until I lived in California (ages 30-32).  The next time I had a car was when we moved to rural Scotland when I was 45.  I really loved those car-free years.  I enjoy driving, but I enjoyed the freedom from car ownership even more.

 

My brother and sister-in-law live in the suburbs of London.  They own a car, but it's mostly just used for weekly supermarket trips.  My brother cycles to work (about nine miles each way).  My sister-in-law walks (about half an hour).  In his previous job, my brother walked to the train station and took the train and Tube to work.  My nieces have left home now, but they used to take the public bus to school.  They don't/didn't find it miserable.

 

L

[Meriwether]

It's been over five years since I bought a bus pass, so I'm sure the price has gone up somewhat since then.  

I checked the city website, and I was wrong about the price. We must have been talking about something else around the same time, because I remember us tallying it up. It only cost about $6.70, which is still a good 4 times what it would have cost her in gas. The monthly pass is $48.00 per month, so you'd break even at about 25 trips. Someone taking the bus to work would end up getting to ride at about half price. There is no monthly pass for kids, but kids ride free in the summer. In fact, my friend is planning on having her daughter take herself to gymnastics by bus this summer, because that will be the cheapest option.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

HOLY C

 

Although I'd still rather pay that than attempt to drive anywhere near NYC.

 

No sweat.  The first million dollar parking spot is now on the market.

 

This one was only a quarter, but a few years ago.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I'll put that on my list of things to buy when I make my first billion.

 

No, no.  Billionaires fly in.

[Julie Smith]

My hubby bikes to work year round. Average total snowfall and days with fresh snow in my town:

 

Days   Month Inches Centimetres

16.7 January 17.1   44

12.6 February 12.0   31   

8.9 March   9.5   24   

3.3 April   3.1     8   

0.1 May   0.1     0   

0.8 October   0.5     1   

7.1 November   5.4   14

14.6 December 15.2   39

64.1 Year 62.8 160

 

So we have on average 64.1 days a year of snow. With a yearly record of 62.8 inches or 160 centimetres.

 

Our local bike stores do sell winter tires for bikes. Chains to put on tires for really bad weather. 

[ocelotmom]

Amsterdam also has an extensive tram system, the GVB, which also includes busses and ferries. They use them when they need to. Stops are plentiful and routes are good. I wonder if a dr. In Amsterdam would consider biking a strenuous activity, though? They could also ride as aassenger on someone's back bike rack/seat.

 

I sure hope they use taxis to get to the hospital when their babies are on the way, though!

 

As someone who regularly rode while 8 months pregnant, pulling a kid and cargo in a bike trailer, and had no problems with it... yes, I'd be inclined to say that the Dr. would consider biking (or walking more than a short distance) to be out in the circumstances mention (avoid strenuous activity, twice weekly visits when weekly is the norm at that point).

 

However, given the homebirth culture in Holland, I suspect the 8.5 month pregnant woman would have received a home visit and not had to go through the hassle of travel at all.

 

This may not be a popular opinion in this thread, and maybe I should be posting it in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but I would rather just have a car than go to all that trouble.

 

I don't want to walk or bike everywhere I go in hot weather, cold weather, wind, rain, or snow. I don't want to walk or bike when I'm not feeling well, when my allergies are acting up, or when I'm just plain tired. I don't want to have to call a taxi every time I have an appointment with the doctor, and I don't want to feel obligated to use only local professionals and shop in local stores, because I can't easily get to the ones in other cities and towns. And I'm not outdoorsy. I don't want to be outdoorsy.

 

While I'm all in favor of contributing financially to the development of a good public transportation system, I'll just keep my cars and deal with the expense. It's well worth it to me.

 

I invite all bike-over-car proponents to come spend a winter riding their bikes to work in the snow belt along the southern shore of Lake Erie.  And then let's talk again in May of 2014.  :)

 

Ok, as someone who has discussed the logistics of driving less....

 

I'm not advocating bike over car to the extent that no one own a car and no one ever drive anywhere, especially in areas that don't facilitate that.

 

I GET IT. I live in a rural area. While my commute is manageable by bike (6 miles), it's mostly on an unpaved road. It's currently 19F, and we had snow with 40mph winds a few days ago. I work 12+ hour shifts starting at 6AM, meaning that, at this time of year, it's pitch dark when I leave, and pitch dark when I go home again. I'm 5 months pregnant. I grew up in coastal Southern California and am unhappy in weather outside the range of about 55-80F. I'm not biking to work right now (and I don't think it would be safe for me to do so)! Even when not pregnant, I don't bike for a good portion of the year, because I'm a wimp. And honestly, we drive a freaking Suburban (we also have a car with much better gas mileage, but it isn't practical in winter either). 

 

However, I'm not saying "I'm pregnant and the weather sucks now, so obviously bike commuting next August is utterly impractical and I may as well not even own a bike." I bike when I can. During that time, we save money on gas and I get more exercise.

 

If you can reduce your car usage by x%, you can tolerate that much of an increase in gas prices without problems. Even if that's only a reduction of 10%, it's still a savings. If you can cut down from two cars to one car, that's a huge savings in insurance and maintenance, while not making you entirely carless.

 

People brought up scenarios that were generally relatively rare or short-term (assuming you aren't quiverfull, what percentage of your life do you really spend pregnant, let alone 8.5 months pregnant?). There are answers to these. They may not be the answers that are the least expensive or fun answers in the short term, but still provide an overall benefit in the long run.

 

And if these scenarios aren't rare or short term? Then you're in a different situation from what you're describing, and it doesn't apply. Though people in Europe (and NYC, for that matter - a lot of families there don't own cars) have kids who are medically fragile and need to see specialists and all that, too. None of the difficulties described (with the exception of communities designed specifically for driving) are any different for them - they just find ways around it, and there's no reason that those ways couldn't be implemented here, too.

 

We spent several years living car-free. We had people insist we were *negligent* in this because what if one of our kids got sick in the middle of the night and had to go to the ER?

 

Well... if we couldn't get ahold of any friends with cars, and our neighbors all suddenly turned into heartless jerks who wouldn't lend a car in a situation serious enough to necessitate a trip to the ER in the middle of the night, and all the taxis were tied up on trips to drive drunk people to the airport 30 miles away... we'd call 911! The kid would get to the ER. There are ways to make it work. 

 

Also, I don't think I'd ever own a $4000 cargo bike, but that certainly isn't required. We did have a cargo trike that I used for transporting kids that cost around $350. A reasonable bike and trailer setup is going to be around $500 brand new, and perfectly adequate for toting around 1-2 kids who aren't old enough to bike on their own yet (add a trail-a-bike to the train, and you can do 3 kids), plus outing supplies and a load of groceries.

 

If my (suburban city) neighborhood were planned like that, I'd love to walk everywhere.  However, my nearest corner store is over a mile away, as is the nearest bus stop (in a different direction).  The nearest grocery (still another direction) is 2 miles, the zoned elementary school farther than that.  The nearest park is 1 mile, the rec center - in fact, everything that isn't a private home is over a mile away.  And as noted previously, knee deep snow makes it seem a heck of a lot farther.  Especially if you have babies who can't walk etc.  If the government wants us to drive less, the government is going to have to build efficient neighborhoods and efficient transportation systems first.  Or put some money into fixing up the neighborhoods that exist in the concentrated cities, which are essentially uninhabitable.  Don't make a thing impossible and then fine people for not doing it.

 

I totally agree with you. It's not realistic to insist that people start walking/biking everywhere in areas that have specifically been designed so that this is not practical or safe.

 

However, it should be kept in mind that these sort of changes start at the local level. Gas prices increases are going to come down from Washington; a plan to put in bike paths is (probably) not. Communities decide that being pedestrian/bike friendly is a priority and work to implement that. And that means that individuals within those communities decide to make it a priority.

 

And I agree with the person who said that the fact that THIS IS NOT OPTIONAL is being ignored. It's going to happen, and we can embrace it and try to make the change as smooth as possible, or just jump off the cliff when we get to it.

[Julie Smith]

Which site did you get that info?  I'd like to look up ours.  I don't know what it is.

 

I just went to google and typed in "Hometown Snowfall Records Average" and it was the first page listed. It was listed on a webpage that had the address "hometown.ca" so I know it wouldn't work for anyone else.