s/o Those of you that think gas prices should equal Europe's

[Dory]

I've been wondering about what kind of alternative energy technology can be used in snowy areas. (Sure, I could google but I'm in the middle of listening to a lecture and don't want to side track too much.) Obviously such technologies are out of the price range of many of us, but they also become cheaper over time so perhaps that problem will resolve itself eventually. Solar won't be much use, but what about domestic wind turbines? 

 

A slight diversion in topic, I realise.

 

We have spent a lot of time looking at alternative energy for up here. Wind only works in a few areas and really, it's hard on the bird life. In the end, we will end up with a combo of solar, geothermal, perhaps a small wind turbine, and I'm considering having water wheels put into the creek beside us. Just one thing alone won't cut it up here.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I've been wondering about what kind of alternative energy technology can be used in snowy areas. (Sure, I could google but I'm in the middle of listening to a lecture and don't want to side track too much.) Obviously such technologies are out of the price range of many of us, but they also become cheaper over time so perhaps that problem will resolve itself eventually. Solar won't be much use, but what about domestic wind turbines? 

 

A slight diversion in topic, I realise.

 

Geothermal, which most associate with Iceland, but actually, we already have the largest production:

 

1. US – 3,093 MW as of 2010
2. Philippines – 1,904 MW
3. Indonesia – 1,197 MW
4. Mexico – 958 MW
5. Italy – 843 MW
6. New Zealand – 628 MW
7. Iceland – 575 MW
8. Japan – 536 MW
9. El Salvador – 204 MW
10. Kenya – 167 MW

[LucyStoner]

I guess my feeling is that I may or may not WANT to pay a high gas price but at some point, in the not so far off future, we WILL be paying a high price because of scarcity and we had darned sure get ready for the changes that will bring now, rather than try and start from scratch when the supply does run down. For one, we have more money now than we will then. Gas prices, and not just the taxes, have more than doubled since we bought our first car in 2001. I could fill my tank (Corolla) for $15 then. Now that would be $40 and for our larger car (Camry) I was surprised to just pay $60 the other day. To think that those prices won't continue to rise steeply as they have is just plain foolish. Wages have certainly not matched this rise- while we make more now than we did then (college age), the jobs we had then still pay about what they did then (in the $10-20/hour range) so this is a bigger piece of the income pie for a lot of people.

 

There is a limit to how many times we can keep kicking the can down the road. At some point we have to stop talking and start putting our money where our mouth is. I feel quite strongly that I owe my children and grandchildren that.

[edelweiss]

I live in an affluent community with sidewalks and bike paths everywhere.  I can get anywhere around town without feeling in danger (from cars) in any way.  We even have a "tunnel" that goes underneath a slightly busy road, so that people can cross safely.  We have a little "town center" with a library, a Starbucks, a restaurant, a bank, and a toy store.  There are several doctors' offices and a CVS near there too.  However, I never see anyone walk or bike to any of these places as a mode of transportation.  People certainly use the bike paths and sidewalks for fitness walking and biking. Absolutely.  But no one around here walks to CVS or a doctor or to the restaurant.  The paths are used for fitness and cars are used for errands.  

 

Two or three times a year we walk to the little town square as a novelty (it is about a mile away), but we definitely get curious looks as people drive by if we're carrying a CVS bag or something.  The grocery stores are closer to two miles away from my house, but a couple of neighborhoods border them.  I have never, ever seen anyone walking to/from the grocery store.  That seems like something I would always take a car to.  I wouldn't be willing to lug a cart of groceries home two miles.  I would love it if I could pay for grocery delivery though!!  I wish it were offered here.  

 

Most people in my community have at least two cars.  Three or four is probably more common.  As most people here could easily afford a higher gas price, it will take a lot more than that to change behaviors.  

[LucyStoner]

My bike was somewhat but not freaky expensive when I bought it...15 years ago. To buy a comparable model new now would cost $600-$700. Pretty low cost considering I still ride it. My husband's bike is a $100 used dealy off of Craigslist. It's a nice bike and the components make for a nice ride but it isn't worth a lot. When the bike thieves come, they leave his bike alone. Any jerk with a set of bolt cutters can snatch a bike. We don't give them any incentive to pick ours off the rack. I don't ride a pricey bike for the same reason I don't wear a super pricey wedding ring. To make it not worth your while to steal my sh!t. We maintain them well and they work. Call it the beater option for the biking world. My husband also doesn't wear bike gear besides a helmet and a light to commute. He obviously has rain gear too for the weather we have and I got him bright yellow on the theory it is more visible to drivers. He changes and showers at work. His employer covers $150 a year in bike maintenance and repair- they even have a bike repair guy come to the campus every other week. Yeah, we live in a PNW bubble.

[SKL]

Why don't most people acknowledge that progress IS being made?

 

Someone mentioned geothermal.  One of the renovated historical buildings I co-own is heated by geothermal energy.  This was installed years ago.  It cost a lot in the short run, but should be a money saver in the long run.  That same building also has many other design features to increase efficiency and encourage sustainable habits.  It's the only downtown building I know of (in our city) that has showers for employees who bike.

 

New developments often strive to meet various levels of green standards (including energy efficiency) and they can get local government funding for this.  There are many incentives and many projects in the works that involve solar and wind energy.  Not really sure all of them are a good idea, but you can't say nobody is doing anything in this direction.

 

Hybrid cars are not unrealistically expensive any more, and lots of people are buying them.  New, relatively affordable designs are coming out all the time.

 

Many, many people are changing their lifestyles incrementally to reduce fuel consumption.  Partly because they have to (it already isn't cheap compared to their disposable income), and partly because they want to.

 

I mentioned telecommuting before.  I am sure that is saving a lot of fuel already, and as technologies improve, this will be a continuing trend.  There are also big projects to make the internet available to everyone in low-income neighborhoods.  This will result in less usage of many resources.

 

Planning is moving in the direction of better mass transit solutions and more walkability / bikeability.  We have a way to go, but it's not as if nobody is doing anything about it.

 

And finally, doomsday predictions have an extremely low accuracy rate.

[Matryoshka]

Two or three times a year we walk to the little town square as a novelty (it is about a mile away), but we definitely get curious looks as people drive by if we're carrying a CVS bag or something.  The grocery stores are closer to two miles away from my house, but a couple of neighborhoods border them.  I have never, ever seen anyone walking to/from the grocery store.  That seems like something I would always take a car to.  I wouldn't be willing to lug a cart of groceries home two miles.  I would love it if I could pay for grocery delivery though!!  I wish it were offered here.  

 

If you've got safe bike paths, no need to lug home grocery bags.  When I lived in the city, I put two baskets on the back of my bike, each was just the right size for a paper grocery bag.  As I was single at the time, that was more than enough capacity for a trip to the grocery store.

 

I think I'm opposite in temperament than 99% of Americans on this point - I have no problem biking or walking somewhere if I've got somewhere to go.  Walking or biking around "for fitness" bugs me, but I still find that 100% better than going to a gym to bike or walk to nowhere on a machine.  It's so unsafe on my street, I have to drive somewhere to begin these activities, and then walk/bike in a circle back to the car.  What madness!  I would love it if I could walk to the town center or the grocery, which are all in a reasonable distance for that - really, the only thing stopping me is the risk of death by being run over - the streets here are narrow and windy, and the cars go fast.  

 

When I lived/worked in the city, I walked or biked to work and errands more often than not.  I find it ironic that moving to where there is more nature has made it harder to to be out in it.  In college and in my 20's I did almost no "fitness" activities (other than rollerblading sometimes for fun, really, not fitness), but I was very fit - because I was always walking and sometimes biking as part of life.  Now I have to "make time" for fitness - I much prefer getting exercise because it just happens.  Thank goodness for lugging wood for the wood stove!

[LucyStoner]

Progress is being made by people and communities that are making those choices and changes and making real investments. Clearly. Look at all people who have shared to that end. However, progress is not being made across the board. Those that acknowledge that there is a problem and who are personally bearing the costs of the changes with more responsible choices and in some cases "sacrifice" are unfairly labelled as doomsdayers.

[Jane in NC]

I live in an affluent community with sidewalks and bike paths everywhere.  I can get anywhere around town without feeling in danger (from cars) in any way.  We even have a "tunnel" that goes underneath a slightly busy road, so that people can cross safely.  We have a little "town center" with a library, a Starbucks, a restaurant, a bank, and a toy store.  There are several doctors' offices and a CVS near there too.  However, I never see anyone walk or bike to any of these places as a mode of transportation.  People certainly use the bike paths and sidewalks for fitness walking and biking. Absolutely.  But no one around here walks to CVS or a doctor or to the restaurant.  The paths are used for fitness and cars are used for errands.  

 

 

Your point brings yet another rabbit trail to mind:  Why is that some people only see bikes as a means of exercise but not as a means of transportation?

 

I volunteer at two different sites near my home (half mile to one, a mile to the other).  I rarely drive to either--I usually bike or walk.  One of my neighbors, who only bikes for fitness, will say "Have a good ride!" as he sees me pass.  The ride is the means to get to a desk where I do paperwork for a non-profit.  Neighbor doesn't ride a bike unless he has on appropriate bike clothing; I, on the other hand, go to my non-profits wearing jeans or shorts or whatever clothing I am wearing.  I do not own Lycra bike clothing.

 

Perhaps this is part of the problem in the US. Fitness is seen as something we do in itself and not as part of daily life (walking, bike commuting, using stairs instead of elevators).  My (long dead) grandparents were farmers. I can imagine them snorting at the thought of going to a gym for exercise.

[SKL]

Your point brings yet another rabbit trail to mind:  Why is that some people only see bikes as a means of exercise but not as a means of transportation?

 

Could be because parking your bike outside and having it still be there when you exit the store is not a given in all areas.  Whereas if you are on your bike the whole time you're away from home, you don't have that issue.  Carrying merchandise may also be an issue.

I used to ride my bike everywhere (weather allowing, otherwise I walked), up until I was done with grad school.  I had a job as a research assistant at grad school, and I would park my bike in my boss's office rather than risk having it vandalized or pieces stolen off of it while parked outside.  (I did have a good lock, and I'd take the front wheel off so I could lock both wheels and the frame, but still I didn't feel it was safe given the crime on campus.  The campus was in the middle of a high-crime, low-income area.)

 

[Jane in NC]

Could be because parking your bike outside and having it still be there when you exit the store is not a given in all areas.  Whereas if you are on your bike the whole time you're away from home, you don't have that issue.  Carrying merchandise may also be an issue.

I used to ride my bike everywhere (weather allowing, otherwise I walked), up until I was done with grad school.  I had a job as a research assistant at grad school, and I would park my bike in my boss's office rather than risk having it vandalized or pieces stolen off of it while parked outside.  (I did have a good lock, and I'd take the front wheel off so I could lock both wheels and the frame, but still I didn't feel it was safe given the crime on campus.  The campus was in the middle of a high-crime, low-income area.)

 

 

I am sorry that you have been exposed to such violence in your life.

 

My communities (primary and summer cottage) are both very safe.  It is wise to lock a bicycle in racks outside of the grocery or restaurants, but I never lock my bike when I go to the beach for a swim.  It has never been stolen nor any parts removed.

 

This morning I assisted with some community garden work.  I rode to the site, placed my bike in the rack unlocked and pedaled home again two hours later.  How sad that you do not have these sorts of experiences!

[Laura Corin]

 

 

Two or three times a year we walk to the little town square as a novelty (it is about a mile away), but we definitely get curious looks as people drive by if we're carrying a CVS bag or something.  

 

I remember going for a walk in Dallas.  It was an affluent neighbourhood with sidewalks.  We got very curious looks as we strolled: we had no dog and were not wearing exercise gear.

 

L

[SproutMamaK]

I think biking/walking is seen as exercise rather than a mode of transportation (even in more compact urban areas) because of
a- cargo load, and

b- scheduling.

 

When we're used to going grocery shopping and bringing home a whole van full of groceries to last for an entire week, it's difficult to imagine doing that on a bike. So often we go places "to pick something up", and often that "something" may not be portable on a bike.

 

As far as scheduling goes, it often just takes longer to get somewhere on a bike. Society as a whole is booking things minute to minute keeping ourselves so busy that we can barely keep up with all our own plans. The thought of a trip taking 15/20 minutes instead of 5 seems like a waste of precious resources, since our own time is the most precious resource to us.

 

I'm not saying any of that is a GOOD thing, but from my perspective it's part of the reason behind the problem.

[ocelotmom]

If you've got safe bike paths, no need to lug home grocery bags.  When I lived in the city, I put two baskets on the back of my bike, each was just the right size for a paper grocery bag.  As I was single at the time, that was more than enough capacity for a trip to the grocery store.

 

I think I'm opposite in temperament than 99% of Americans on this point - I have no problem biking or walking somewhere if I've got somewhere to go.  Walking or biking around "for fitness" bugs me, but I still find that 100% better than going to a gym to bike or walk to nowhere on a machine.  It's so unsafe on my street, I have to drive somewhere to begin these activities, and then walk/bike in a circle back to the car.  What madness!  I would love it if I could walk to the town center or the grocery, which are all in a reasonable distance for that - really, the only thing stopping me is the risk of death by being run over - the streets here are narrow and windy, and the cars go fast.  

 

When I lived/worked in the city, I walked or biked to work and errands more often than not.  I find it ironic that moving to where there is more nature has made it harder to to be out in it.  In college and in my 20's I did almost no "fitness" activities (other than rollerblading sometimes for fun, really, not fitness), but I was very fit - because I was always walking and sometimes biking as part of life.  Now I have to "make time" for fitness - I much prefer getting exercise because it just happens.  Thank goodness for lugging wood for the wood stove!

 

Me too! I'm horrible about getting exercise for the sake of exercise, but I'll do a 20 mile bike commute without a whole lot of thought. 

 

In my early 20s I once tried rollerblade commuting to work. I forgot to bring along a pair of shoes.

 

I am sorry that you have been exposed to such violence in your life.

 

My communities (primary and summer cottage) are both very safe.  It is wise to lock a bicycle in racks outside of the grocery or restaurants, but I never lock my bike when I go to the beach for a swim.  It has never been stolen nor any parts removed.

 

This morning I assisted with some community garden work.  I rode to the site, placed my bike in the rack unlocked and pedaled home again two hours later.  How sad that you do not have these sorts of experiences!

 

Bike-heavy areas tend to have a lot of bike theft problems - even areas that are overall safe. They're extremely easy opportunistic thefts. I've lived multiple places where I'd feel safe walking alone at 2AM but wouldn't think of leaving a bike parked unsupervised and unlocked.

 

Unless you have a super expensive bike, it tends to be an annoyance financially on the level of an unexpected car repair, and people accept car repair expenses as a part of life.

[edelweiss]

I think biking/walking is seen as exercise rather than a mode of transportation (even in more compact urban areas) because of

a- cargo load, and

b- scheduling.

 

When we're used to going grocery shopping and bringing home a whole van full of groceries to last for an entire week, it's difficult to imagine doing that on a bike. So often we go places "to pick something up", and often that "something" may not be portable on a bike.

 

As far as scheduling goes, it often just takes longer to get somewhere on a bike. Society as a whole is booking things minute to minute keeping ourselves so busy that we can barely keep up with all our own plans. The thought of a trip taking 15/20 minutes instead of 5 seems like a waste of precious resources, since our own time is the most precious resource to us.

 

I'm not saying any of that is a GOOD thing, but from my perspective it's part of the reason behind the problem.

 

 

I agree.  I hate going to the grocery store.  Hate it.  When I go, I'm going to go for a week's worth of groceries.  No way I could bike or walk home with that load.  

 

I also definitely agree with the scheduling thing.  I don't have the time to walk or bike to most of the places that we go on a daily basis.  If I had to walk or bike to more things, I would have to allow a lot more time and cut short many of the other things I do in my life.  

[Jane in NC]

I agree.  I hate going to the grocery store.  Hate it.  When I go, I'm going to go for a week's worth of groceries.  No way I could bike or walk home with that load.  

 

I also definitely agree with the scheduling thing.  I don't have the time to walk or bike to most of the places that we go on a daily basis.  If I had to walk or bike to more things, I would have to allow a lot more time and cut short many of the other things I do in my life.  

I think we are coming back to cultural things again.

 

Some people go the box grocery to buy large quantities of food every week or two.  Others go to farmer's markets, butchers, fishmongers, bakeries.  When I lived in New York City, I knew no one who drove to a grocery store.  One would stop on the way home (after getting off the bus or subway) at the greengrocers, the deli, the bakery, whatever.

 

But again, no one is suggesting that we abandon our cars completely. I certainly will continue to use mine to drive to the local farms where I buy almost all of my produce.  I can bike to an excellent farmer's market five miles away from the summer cottage. I carry my produce in a back pack and panniers while biking safely on a dedicated bike path.  Just pack those raspberries carefully...

 

About the scheduling:  some people need to shave minutes off of their errands by driving in order to have more time at the gym..Just sayin'.... ;)

 

[TeacherZee]

This is what I was thinking of, forget all of the farmer's markets and farms, they'd go out of business. 

 

Best farmers market I've ever gone to http://www.edinburghfarmersmarket.co.uk/

 

Question for those who advocate biking to work. I know other countries do it, but dh has tried it. The roads aren't so much of a problem. His problem is that after he gets to work on his bike, he is in sore need of a shower and a fresh change of clothes. No way could he function successfully in his job after that ride to work. Do people who bike to work have a shower facility to utilize? Do they have a closet where they are able to keep their work clothes? A baby wipe isn't going to cut it. I am asking in all seriousness. 

 

Most large employers here have shower facilities, and even many small places do, along with space to store extra clothes etc.

 

Well, I had two non-walkers in the winter of 2007.  Snow accumulation and strollers don't mix too well.  I did learn to stock up plenty of milk just in case.

 

I would also note that in my parents' village, which gets a very high amount of snowfall, they have sidewalk plows that run every time it snows.  Very nice.  The residents still have to clear the path from their door to the sidewalk, but folks will help elderly people and such with that.  The sidewalk plow would be a good idea for northern cities if they hope people will walk more.  (Not sure how much gas they use....)

 

Around here people have one of these.

 

http://www.alternativ.nu/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=894

 

or one of these

 

http://www.storochliten.se/produkt/pulka-pacer-duo-rod/25836410

 

I live in a small town. It takes me less than five minutes to walk to work, less than two to the nearest bus stop and 10 minutes to the city centre where there are about 50 different shops including a grocery store, there are two more grocery stores within walking distance. I have one of these

 

http://www.kontorstillbehor.se/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductId=1810379

 

to carry my groceries in.

 

I don't own a car. But I do live in a town that values walking and biking so there are sidewalks and they plow them in the winter.

[SKL]

About the scheduling:  some people need to shave minutes off of their errands by driving in order to have more time at the gym..Just sayin'.... ;)

 

The ONLY reason I have signed up for indoor activities is because it's pitch black as well as cold / wet / snowy by the time they would get home from school (aftercare).  I personally was never a fan of such activities.  However, I think it is wrong to let my kids become couch potatoes because they don't have the opportunity to spend their afternoons playing outdoors like I did as a kid.

 

If it were an option for us, I'd have my kids walk, bike, or bus home right after school and play outdoors while I finish my day's work.  Then we could cut some or all of the extracurriculars (though I do like the kids to do at least some).  Eventually they will qualify for school sports, which should also reduce our driving time.  If they could do more stuff at school, I'd be all over that.  It just isn't our reality at present.

[Laura Corin]

Best farmers market I've ever gone to http://www.edinburghfarmersmarket.co.uk/

 

 

 

And you can be sure that most people walked/took public transport.  The parking situation in Edinburgh is brutal.

 

L

[TeacherZee]

And you can be sure that most people walked/took public transport.  The parking situation in Edinburgh is brutal.

 

L

 

I certainly did :) Number 20 bus to the top of Princes Street then walked, and then the same bus home.

 

I did have a car the last year I lived in Edinburgh but that is because I worked evenings in an out of town shopping centre outside Glasgow. There wasn't a reasonable way for me to get home in the evening. Before that, and except for work, I walked or took the bus.

[Rosie_0801]

We have spent a lot of time looking at alternative energy for up here. Wind only works in a few areas and really, it's hard on the bird life. In the end, we will end up with a combo of solar, geothermal, perhaps a small wind turbine, and I'm considering having water wheels put into the creek beside us. Just one thing alone won't cut it up here.

 

I assume the design makes a difference to the birds? I've started seeing wind turbines that are shaped more like a double helix than a windmill.

 

 

I don't know much about geothermal any more. I shall have to read up on that again.

[edelweiss]

I think we are coming back to cultural things again.

 

Some people go the box grocery to buy large quantities of food every week or two.  Others go to farmer's markets, butchers, fishmongers, bakeries.  When I lived in New York City, I knew no one who drove to a grocery store.  One would stop on the way home (after getting off the bus or subway) at the greengrocers, the deli, the bakery, whatever.

 

But again, no one is suggesting that we abandon our cars completely. I certainly will continue to use mine to drive to the local farms where I buy almost all of my produce.  I can bike to an excellent farmer's market five miles away from the summer cottage. I carry my produce in a back pack and panniers while biking safely on a dedicated bike path.  Just pack those raspberries carefully...

 

About the scheduling:  some people need to shave minutes off of their errands by driving in order to have more time at the gym..Just sayin'.... ;)

 

Yeah, I realize that there are major cultural differences.   I'm sure that I would adapt to making small, frequent trips to the grocery store if I absolutely had to, but a rise in gas prices sure won't be enough for me to change that.  I feel fairly certain that I will never cart any groceries home on a bike or on foot.  I realize that my children or my grandchildren's reality might be different though.

 

I can't speak for everyone else, but I do all of my exercising at home, not at the gym, and my workout takes place instead of an extra hour of sleep I would get, so I still would have problems with scheduling.  

[SKL]

When I was a kid living in a walkable town, my sibs and I would go on foot to do the grocery shopping, push it home in a cart, and push the cart back to the store.  :)  I guess as an adult that might look a bit odd, but I have seen elderly people do it.  They push the cart back the next time they go shopping.  There are also trolleys that can be purchased for dragging back a load of groceries.

 

Believe it or not, when I have time, I go out of my way to take my kids on foot to do things.  I'd love to be able to send my kids walking to do all the things I did at their age.  My kids begged me recently to let them walk to the library on their own.  It is 2 or 3 miles away and on a road with no sidewalk.  Besides, the library has a rule against unsupervised kids under 12.  So, the answer was "no."

 

That's another thing.  I could send my kids walking to the rec center or park, each about a mile away, while I work.  But it's against the rules for anyone under 13 to go to the rec center without an adult.  As for the park, I don't know of any rules against it, but I could just imagine someone calling the cops upon seeing kids alone at such an un-kid-friendly place as a park.  :/  I have sent them there before, but I always come and meet them before too much time has passed.  Call me paranoid.

[SKL]

Yes, you have to be prepared to change the way you do things. I forgo some activities so we can be home in time for me to pick up daily groceries. That's how it is.

 

I guess some of us are prepared to make changes and some of us aren't. That's also how it is.

 

Yeah, I guess a person who shops for groceries daily is a better person than someone who doesn't.

 

My grocery store is a 30 minute drive away.  It is NOT walkable (nor bikeable).  There are other closer stores but they do not have the organic food that I choose for my kids.  I drive there once every 2-3 weeks and combine it with other shopping which is within walking distance of that store.  I also combine it with a weekly trip that has me part of the way there already.  I drive 55-60 and the amount of gas I use is not guilt-inspiring in any country.  Really.  I'm sure there are some things about your lifestyle and those of others here that I could criticize ignorantly too.

 

I hear a lot of "I live in a walkable situation, therefore everyone who doesn't is morally inferior" in some of the posts here.  I guess I was a saint until I started living in the suburbs.  Then I suddenly became a jerk.

[ocelotmom]

Going to the store less frequently and stocking up or combining necessary trips is another way of reducing gas usage. There isn't one right answer.

[Catwoman]

I think something that hasn't been mentioned yet is that living life in a way that uses fewer resources isn't always fun.

 

There's been a vibe in some posts of - well, that's OK for those you like biking or walking or carrying their groceries home!

 

We don't run air conditioning. That's uncomfortable at times. Very uncomfortable when the thermometer hits 40C and higher.

 

I walk to buy groceries. Sometimes it's a nice break. Sometimes I hate it.

 

Waiting at bus stops ? Yeah, NOT my favourite thing in the world.

 

No dryer here. Yep, laundry takes longer and is weather dependent.

 

The point is, you don't wait until these things are enjoyable or convenient to do. You just do them! Health and genuine safety needs excepted.

I won't be doing them. I drive cars and I use the dryer and I run the air conditioning.

 

And I don't think that makes me a terrible person.

 

When we are staying in the city, it's great to be able to walk to many conveniences, but when we are at one of our homes in the suburbs, we would have to walk miles to get to a store (and even if we wanted to use public transportation, none is available.) I'm sorry, but I'm not going to make excuses and act like I'm ashamed because I drive my car a few miles to go to the store.

 

There seems to be a lot of judging going on in this thread, as well as more than a little bit of competition over who is more self-sacrificing for the benefit of the common good.

 

That said, I can see that you are very sincere in your feelings about this topic and that you definitely practice what you preach, and I truly admire you for that.

[Rosie_0801]

SKL, you are a single mother working outside the home. Of course your life is different to mine. My life is such that if I had a shop two km away, I would walk down there most days because I have plenty of time for that sort of thing. I'm not knocking you. But I would knock my neighbour who used to pull out of his driveway at 8.30 every morning and come back at about 8.37. If I put on my thinking cap, I may be able to think of good reasons for that, but the most likely thing is he was going to the shop a block away for the morning paper. I will knock the trick or treaters people talked about on here who drove their kids from house to house in good weather, in an ordinary suburban area where the next house is mere metres away. That kind of stuff is just silly.

[Dory]

I assume the design makes a difference to the birds? I've started seeing wind turbines that are shaped more like a double helix than a windmill.

 

 

I don't know much about geothermal any more. I shall have to read up on that again.

 

I had forgotten about that type of wind turbine. They aren't very common up here. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen them was on the computer. I should maybe look into them a little more. All the same, wind isn't dependable around here, it wouldn't be a complete solution.

 

 

 

I'm wondering why so few people grow a potato bag or a tomato plant, or have a couple heads of lettuce going all the time. I used to think that I couldn't grow anything, but really it was just a lack of know how and practice. It would take awhile for me to bike to the nearest grocery store so it wouldn't be a daily thing, but because I manage to grow a good chunk of our veggies in raised beds (which take less weeding and less space), I don't have a need for the store every day and I can still haul back the groceries in a backpack or basket. I don't have the time or energy to put a lot of effort into my garden, but I have learned how to get the most for the least input on my part. I'm to busy doing things I would never expect everyone else to do like milking, making cheese, growing my own wheat for bread, and things like that. The garden is the easy part, despite the fact that it took me a few years to figure it out.

[Χά�ων]

I had forgotten about that type of wind turbine. They aren't very common up here. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen them was on the computer. I should maybe look into them a little more. All the same, wind isn't dependable around here, it wouldn't be a complete solution.

 

 

 

I'm wondering why so few people grow a potato bag or a tomato plant, or have a couple heads of lettuce going all the time. I used to think that I couldn't grow anything, but really it was just a lack of know how and practice. It would take awhile for me to bike to the nearest grocery store so it wouldn't be a daily thing, but because I manage to grow a good chunk of our veggies in raised beds (which take less weeding and less space), I don't have a need for the store every day and I can still haul back the groceries in a backpack or basket. I don't have the time or energy to put a lot of effort into my garden, but I have learned how to get the most for the least input on my part. I'm to busy doing things I would never expect everyone else to do like milking, making cheese, growing my own wheat for bread, and things like that. The garden is the easy part, despite the fact that it took me a few years to figure it out.

What is a potato bag? I have lettuce going (I cannot eat tomatoes) and am looking to get carrots going year round.

[Catwoman]

What is a potato bag? I have lettuce going (I cannot eat tomatoes) and am looking to get carrots going year round.

I am so glad I'm not the only person who was wondering about that. :D

[Jane in NC]

There seems to be a lot of judging going on in this thread, as well as more than a little bit of competition over who is more self-sacrificing for the benefit of the common good.

 

 

Really?  My perception varies.

 

Back when I was homeschooling (my one and only is now in college) I would tell my sister about something we were doing in our homeschool.  Her inevitable response was "Well I couldn't homeschool!"  To which I would respond "No one is asking you to do so!"

 

Some people just cannot see past themselves.

 

I need a car. No one has told me that I must sell my car.  I have tried to make the point that I do not use my car for every piddling little thing.  I walk and bike when feasible.  Some people have said that they live in non-pedestrian or bike friendly neighborhoods. Some live in places that are so crime ridden I cannot fathom the insecurity that their families face on a daily basis.  Too many of us live in places in the US without any mass transit, decent or lousy.

 

Some have said that they envision different sorts of communities.  They mention baby steps to implement that vision.  Some believe that change is inevitable so we should determine how we want to change our communities before change is imposed upon us.  Some believe that technology holds the answers so that not much in our lives will change on the superficial level.

 

But no one is suggesting (or should be suggesting) that one person's choices must be another person's choices.  Let's make that clear.  Because one person's solution does not work for someone does not mean it is a bad idea.  Let's see past ourselves. Can we try?

[unsinkable]

Detroit, for one. I went there on a couple of work trips, even years ago, now, and bombed-out war zone was my thought, too. We went to dinner one night at a nice steak house, but it was in the middle of a desolate, broken down area -- there was nothing else functioning around it for blocks and blocks. It was one of the eeriest things I ever saw. It was like something out of a movie.

Detroit, Camden, Gary, Buffalo, Flint, Cleveland, Baltimore...sorry, can't type anymore. Too depressing.

[Mona]

I didn't read any responses before replying. 

I found out recently that the same cars we have here get more miles to the gallon in Europe. A friend of mine was looking into getting a VW Jetta and found that the European model gets 70 mpg compared to the US version which is much less and it is illegal for VW to sell that engine in the US version. So, if we compare gas prices, we have to also consider that the cars overseas may actually have different components in their engines allowing them to get more mpg than we do.

[Lolly]

I didn't read any responses before replying. 

I found out recently that the same cars we have here get more miles to the gallon in Europe. A friend of mine was looking into getting a VW Jetta and found that the European model gets 70 mpg compared to the US version which is much less and it is illegal for VW to sell that engine in the US version. So, if we compare gas prices, we have to also consider that the cars overseas may actually have different components in their engines allowing them to get more mpg than we do.

 

This article offers explanations including the difference in US and European gallons. (They are actually not the same! A gallon is not a gallon.) http://jalopnik.com/5981938/why-do-european-cars-get-better-mpg-than-us-cars

 

 

 From another article: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates-comparing-epa-figures-page-3

One last fuel-economy tidbit: Don’t even think of comparing EPA figures with stand­ardized fuel-economy tests from other countries because the test cycles are very different. For example, the European highway rating, called “extra urban,†is higher than the EPA’s by about 30 percent, so a rating on that cycle of, say, 60 mpg, would be closer to 40 in this country. The mainstream press, not realizing the difference, often complains that automakers refuse to bring efficient models here when, in fact, they may not be all that efficient when measured by U.S. standards.

 

It is a lot more complicated than just comparing the two numbers here and there.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I am so glad I'm not the only person who was wondering about that. :D

 

Grow bags, I think:

 

[Catwoman]

Grow bags, I think:

 

Thanks, Tom! :)

 

If I saw those in someone's yard, I'd be asking myself why those people were putting perfectly good plants into contractor bags and throwing them away. :D

 

They actually look kind of cool, and I'll bet they are very convenient to use.

 

Thanks again!

[Dory]

Yep what Tom posted or these. I can't for the life of me find where I got mine from. I gave them to a friend because she lives in town and it's easier for her. I have the space to put my potatoes in my raised beds. Sorry for not answering the questions earlier. My internet hates me today.

[SKL]

Love the idea of growing food.  I've done it before, but the deer kept eating it, LOL.  And the lawn guy mowed part of it down.  Every year I plan to do it again anyway, but there's a narrow window to plant the seeds and I keep missing it.  (I know, excuses, excuses.)

 

But if you saw my post on the sheet washing, you can give me kudos for hardly ever using fuel to wash bedding.  So there's that.  Hey, maybe if I keep that up long enough, we could grow baby carrots in the bedrooms.

 

(I'm just being silly here, no need to counter me....)

[FaithManor]

nm

Edited December 15, 2013 by FaithManor

[Jane in NC]

Little changes made by large numbers does add up.

Hi Faith.

 

Nice to see you again. I have been worried about you.

 

Jane

[FaithManor]

nm

[Jane in NC]

I think our scientists and inventors have the innovative skills necessary to tackle these issues and come up with real solutions. But, the capitalist market needs to be taken out of it because right now hairbrained schemes that have no hope of being successful on any reasonable scale end up with massive amounts of taxpayer dollars invested in them in order for some company to get rich quick only to A. use more energy than will ever be saved and B. fleece everyone while doing it and then declare bankruptcy. It's a waste of money. The dollars need to go to university labs where engineers and scientists can hammer out these issues without a board of directors leaning over their necks demanding stock prices increase dramatically in a short period of time. Plus, we need some oversight from an independent source - some group that doesn't have political skin in the game - because our government tends to send money to those that grease their personal campaign palms instead of to those with viable plans or good ideas that should be researched. I am not sure how to make that happen. But, I think we have the brains here in this nation to get it done, I just think our current system tends to tie those brains up in ridiculous political games and money making ventures.

 

Faith

Completely agreeing with you on the need for R&D without immediate profit as the determining factor of whether a project is successful.  It seems that a lot of people and companies spend an inordinate amount of time putting out fires and hence cannot develop long term vision.  Universities have their hands tied on the nature of research they can perform.  My academic family members are happy to retire.  Fighting for funds prevents them from doing the kind of lab work they were able to do in the past.

 

Faith, I want you to know that I am keeping your daughter in my thoughts and prayers.  And you and your husband.  May you find peace during this holiday season and in the new year.

 

Jane

[Hikin' Mama]

I have read parts of this thread with interest. Just like the SAHM is easy/hard thread, the how much do you need to live on thread, rich/poor habits thread, etc., people's experiences vary. Life is very complex with a multitude of factors determining our choices and experiences.

 

I've lived in a couple places where the only time I drove my car was to leave town. I biked and walked everywhere. (On top of that, I went to the gym and worked out. Call me an overachiever. :) I was also childless in both of these places. I've visited cities where it was incredibly do-able to walk or take public transportation everywhere we wanted to go. I did this with children at various ages. Just recently, my teen daughter and I visited Seattle. We flew there and took the light rail to where we were staying and walked everywhere we went, except to the zoo to which we took the bus. It rained every single day (surprise!), but it didn't bother us one bit to walk. We covered MANY miles. I found it amusing that when I asked someone at the aquarium how to get somewhere, he responded with, "Oh that's quite a hike. It's 8 blocks!" I thought only people in my backward rural town would consider an 8-block walk "quite a hike."

 

But where I live, this isn't do-able. Walmart is only 4 miles away, but I'm not walking there to get my groceries. Besides, I've heard that Walmart is evil, so I drive 11 miles to the next town over where there is a low cost grocery, Target, and Costco all on the same corner. I combine my trips so that I can do all my errands at once. When I am in that town, I also go to the library, where I get most ALL of my books. Saves the UPS guy from having to drive to my house everytime I want something new to read, which is what would happen if I would get said books from Amazon. Also saves on packaging. I'm not going to walk or ride my bike to that town either, not because I'm lazy, but because I can't carry the stuff back on my back or bike. And to prove I'm not lazy, I actually have run the 11 miles on several occassions to the next town over, just for fun. Weird, I know.

 

Anyway, I would happily walk everywhere I go, if it were feasible to do so, but where I live, it is not. It is also not feasible to bike everywhere I need to go, although I do take long bike rides on back country roads, again, just for fun. Most of my friends think I'm crazy for doing so, because while there isn't a lot of traffic on these roads, the traffic is BIG and it goes by FAST.

 

YMMV (pun intended) :)

[SKL]

 

 

The below section was supposed to be a quote from above:

***

I think our scientists and inventors have the innovative skills necessary to tackle these issues and come up with real solutions. But, the capitalist market needs to be taken out of it because right now hairbrained schemes that have no hope of being successful on any reasonable scale end up with massive amounts of taxpayer dollars invested in them in order for some company to get rich quick only to A. use more energy than will ever be saved and B. fleece everyone while doing it and then declare bankruptcy. It's a waste of money. The dollars need to go to university labs where engineers and scientists can hammer out these issues without a board of directors leaning over their necks demanding stock prices increase dramatically in a short period of time. Plus, we need some oversight from an independent source - some group that doesn't have political skin in the game - because our government tends to send money to those that grease their personal campaign palms instead of to those with viable plans or good ideas that should be researched. I am not sure how to make that happen. But, I think we have the brains here in this nation to get it done, I just think our current system tends to tie those brains up in ridiculous political games and money making ventures.

***

 

Is it the capital market or the government or the tax subsidies that encourage R&D into projects that net negative benefit?  To me, the answer is obvious - while private investment sometimes results in a loss, the investors have all the skin in the game and will apply some reasonable level of risk tolerance on average.  Tax subsidies buffer the risks and intentionally encourage projects that are not viable on their own.  I'd do away with the tax subsidies before I'd encroach on private enterprise R&D.

 

As for university R&D, it is not independent by a long shot.  Besides, I would prefer not to leave my future up to the ivory towers.

 

It's debatable whether things would be better with or without "independent" or government oversight.  It's hard to tell because that reality hasn't existed for so long.  Like with healthcare, there hasn't been unregulated / unsubsidized health insurance for so long, who knows how it would work if it existed.

[Χά�ων]

I don't think people should be ashamed. Distance and lack of public transport are genuine reasons not to be able to walk/bike/bus/train it.

 

Shame just makes people dig in.

 

What I'm curious about is what people who genuinely can't reduce gas consumption to zero do about that.

 

Accept, ignore, support change in the community ?

 

Things people can do that aren't extreme include keeping air con a few degrees lower, carpooling with friends and family for shopping/school trips, having a day a week where you don't use the car, line drying washing when weather allows...

 

I don't have a political mistrust of 'ivory tower' not for profit research, nor do I particularly loathe for profit research.

 

Idk. The pace of innovation doesn't seem to be keeping pace with things like climate change, so I'm not counting on innovation to sort out our fuel issues either.

 

*I* am reducing my dependents on coal, another fossil fuel, by having two solar arrays on our property and am looking at a wind turbine.

 

*I* would attend a community planning meeting if they were looking into getting a daily train into the city going.

 

*I* buy local and grow as much of my own food as possible. Even if I do not drive to the store, the food is delivered by trucks that use gasoline. 

 

*I* combine trips and will carpool with a neighbor if at all possible. I buy a cow and a hog from a local source and take them to a local butcher and store the meat in a freezer to reduce how much gasoline is used to get the meat to me.

 

*I* drive one of the most fuel efficient cars on the market.

 

*I* am advocating to get Skype music lessons set up for DS. 

 

*I* am advocating for a satellite office to be in my county so I do not have to drive an hour each way for DS to be seen.

 

*I* am advocating for telemedicine since the chances of me getting the above is not likely.

 

 

99% of the above is not possible if I live closer to the city. I could walk to Walmart, but the food would have to be shipped in from far away. I could not grow my own food or raise chickens. I would still have to drive further to get to the butcher and to get my meat and the meat would have to travel further to get to the butcher.

 

I would be closer to therapy and his doctor but not by enough to walk and public transportation would still not be reasonable unless I was wiling to stay in town until close to midnight. Not sure what idiot set up the schedule but seriously.

 

I think the suburbs and our societies lack of knowledge on how to prepare food is a huge issue. By design people are dependent on gasoline. In the trucks that bring the food to the store, in their car to get to the store, to get to work etc etc etc. Local food source options (and by local I mean less than 10 miles), allow people to grow and raise their own food would be a huge help. Plus education! Our society is so far removed from our food gets to our table that it is sad. There are people who really have no clue! I am always amazed by the "meal in 30 minutes" products. The only time I spend more than 30 minutes is when I am experimenting or batch cooking. To make a meal I spend 20-25 minutes. I cook from scratch and prep food in the morning.

[SKL]

My nearby big city has greenhouses in low income areas where people (within walking distance) grow their own food.  It also has enough grocery stores (Aldi, Dave's) so most people in low-income areas are within 1 mile of one.

[SKL]

Anybody on this forum who believes s/he has "reduced gas consumption to zero" is lying to him/herself.  The internet takes up a ton of energy.  All the goods you buy, regardless of how it arrives at your door, use fuel in the making and supplying.  Some more than others.

 

In my opinion the goal is to not waste, not to reduce usage to zero.  And by "not waste," I'm not just talking about gasoline in our cars.

[TeacherZee]

I read Animal, Vegetable, Miracle a few years ago and it made me really think about my footprint and what I do. For me it is impossible to get locally grown fresh veggies in the winter. So I expand what is local at that time of year (I will buy tomatoes from Spain in December but not in August for example). I look at what I buy, does this meal really need this ingredient or can I substitute for something that I can get locally.

 

It isn't about doing everything, it is about doing what you can do, or what you can do without.

 

I'm not perfect, but I will buy Swedish apples over Chinese apples or not eat apples at all but instead eat kiwi fruits from Spain if I have to choose between kiwifruits from Spain or apples from China. I live in a town where I don't need a car, my parents live in the middle of nowhere, they need two cars. It doesn't make me better then them. They do things for the environment I don't (they are much better at turning off lights then me ;)).

 

Every little helps.

[Jane in NC]

I read Animal, Vegetable, Miracle a few years ago and it made me really think about my footprint and what I do. For me it is impossible to get locally grown fresh veggies in the winter. So I expand what is local at that time of year (I will buy tomatoes from Spain in December but not in August for example). I look at what I buy, does this meal really need this ingredient or can I substitute for something that I can get locally.

 

It isn't about doing everything, it is about doing what you can do, or what you can do without.

 

I'm not perfect, but I will buy Swedish apples over Chinese apples or not eat apples at all but instead eat kiwi fruits from Spain if I have to choose between kiwifruits from Spain or apples from China. I live in a town where I don't need a car, my parents live in the middle of nowhere, they need two cars. It doesn't make me better then them. They do things for the environment I don't (they are much better at turning off lights then me ;)).

 

Every little helps.

 

This is really off topic but supporting the local economy and local farmers/fishermen in particular is a huge issue for me personally.  I can look at this through purely selfish reasons. My local farmers/fishermen are contributing to the tax base which helps all of us in the community.  By buying local food, I have perishables that don't perish as quickly as the stuff from the Big Box store.  I know my farmers.  I can ask Henry or Sam how they grow something or what to do with it.

 

Admittedly we eat differently because of our commitment to local food.  We eat a heck of a lot of kale in the fall.  I have a bushel of sweet potatoes in my garage (local farm), a bushel of apples from the NC mountains purchased when I drove there for a meeting.  I made a recipe the other night that called for frozen spinach which I did not have.  I used tatsoi from a local farm.  No one complained.

 

TeacherZee and I are certainly on the same page!

 

[SKL]

My grocery uses local produce; in fact, the owners have their own organic farm.  :)  And they have a policy to stock only foods that are organic / sustainable / as close to nature as possible.  But the flip side is that I have to drive for a half hour to get to their store, and I can only eat the quickly perishable produce for a few days.  (So far nobody has died over not having fresh berries for a week or two.)  There are much closer stores along my usual daily driving route, but buying there encourages things I prefer not to encourage.  So yes, it is a balance.

 

As far as education goes, I found a farm only 5 miles from my home that offers camps to teach kids about food production, etc. (along with horse riding).  Of course we do have to drive there if we want to benefit from this.  There's also a "farm park" in a nearby county, perhaps 20 miles away.  Again, we have to drive there if we want a hands-on experience.  I can't do it in my backyard.