Who has a narcissistic mother?

[Impish]

Yeah, finding out that it really ISN'T you, that it's truly her is a completely freeing experience. And then, for me, it became enraging.

 

Enraged for all the times I believed her, when she gaslit me. For all the times I believed it was all MY fault that our relationship was the way it was. For all the times that I ignored, endured, enabled her abuse of me, hoping, praying, weeping to finally be worth her love and approval. For all the things it robbed me of, as a child, as a woman, as a sister, a mother, a wife.

 

None of my 3 brothers and I talk, afaik. She's triangulated us all, w/her lies, plotting, gaslighting. My eldest bro went NC about a decade ago. Youngest bro was NC for about a year, then she STALKED him to his church on Christmas day. She said they started talking, but given that I'm several provinces away and had no contact w/my sibs, no clue if that's true or not, or if it continued.

 

Last I heard, only the Golden Child was in contact w/them. And, from her descriptions of things, I wouldn't be surprised if that ended too, since she was bragging about being on his doorstep almost daily to visit her grandson. I can't imagine any woman tolerating her MIL up her butt on a daily basis, esp given what I know about my mother. Sooner or later, that mask drops.

[pdalley]

Oh yeah. The rage. Part of me wishes I'd said something but by the end - after I had figured out her issue thanks to this board and reading that website - I knew it would just feed her martyr complex and I was going to be switched if I did that. On the plus side when it comes to the kids I can think - 'What would Mom do?' and do the opposite. I have a great relationship with my boys and I tell them I love them often. I've helped them be independent as possible - never holding them back from learning a skill. She browbeat me into not taking home ec in High School. I could have used those skills. I'm mad at myself for letting her dictate my life for a very long time.

 

I'm basically having to 'reparent' my brother - who is 8 years younger - and that makes me mad because he's an exceptionally bright and capable man but she browbeat him so much he still thinks he can't do anything right. DH has to 'deprogram' me because I tend to think the same way. And that makes me mad.

 

Would it seem childish and spiteful to admit that when I'm really mad I banish her small container of ashes to the garage? Somehow I feel a bit better when I do that. 

 

I can't decide if my MIL is narcissistic too or just being an alcoholic. My SIL - oh yeah. She's MIL's golden child and she could be my mother's twin.

[Impish]

She's probably both, pdalley.

 

I soooo understand the undermining. There are so many things that I believed to be true about myself, b/c she'd stated it as truth, time and again.

 

I'm still dealing w/some of that.

 

Wolf deals w/it too. Just tonight, I talked to MIL while he was napping. She always tries to suck up to me, while subtly putting him down. The kids are ALL to my credit. I'm SOOOOO wonderful to put up w/Wolf. Blah blah blah.

 

I always stomp on it. Say how fantastic a dh and daddy he is. She never fails to be at a loss when confronted w/the reality of who her son is, she basically refuses to consider him as the man he's become, but insists that he must be basically a waste of space, and invite me to a martyrhood w/her.

 

Nope. 

[Chelle in MO]

I am so impressed with all of you for recognizing the dysfunction and working to rise above it.  Many, many hugs to you!

[LisaD]

Wow...this is my mom....like other posters, it is so hard for me to understand how she can be the way she is to her own children and I so hope and pray that I don't end up like her.

My brother lives 20 min from her...she doesn't visit or call, didn't go to his wedding (because she might have had to interact with her ex, my brotehr's dad), doesn't make any effort to see her grand kids.

We live 1000s of miles away...she doesn't send cards or gifts for any of our birthdays (although she did call me this past birthday), she has visited us twice and (she stays in a hotel because she wants to and we're thankful because she smokes nonstop) when she's here doesn't come to the house til late morning, then heads back right after dinner. When she was at the house she barely interacted with the kids. She has not called my kids (5 and 3) on the phone ever. The crazy thing is, like clockwork, every Christmas she sends us a nice check.

I try to include her- send her texts and picture messages about the kids, but she says she can't get the pics on her phone.

Lots of excuses....no connection or communication initiated by her...when we do talk, it's very superficial. I know she doesn't know anything about my children's likes/dislikes, activities, etc, let alone mine or my husband's.

As a Christian, and now a mother to a boy and a girl, I am constantly soaking in everything about how to be a godly and loving mother from good friends and mentors. When I see godly families in our church where the mom and daughters have flourishing, close relationships, I really don't know how that must feel or how to do that. I just know I want that with my daughter!

Thanks previous posters for the book recommendations...I think I will be doing some reading. (:

[pdalley]

She's probably both, pdalley.

 

I soooo understand the undermining. There are so many things that I believed to be true about myself, b/c she'd stated it as truth, time and again.

 

I'm still dealing w/some of that.

 

Wolf deals w/it too. Just tonight, I talked to MIL while he was napping. She always tries to suck up to me, while subtly putting him down. The kids are ALL to my credit. I'm SOOOOO wonderful to put up w/Wolf. Blah blah blah.

 

I always stomp on it. Say how fantastic a dh and daddy he is. She never fails to be at a loss when confronted w/the reality of who her son is, she basically refuses to consider him as the man he's become, but insists that he must be basically a waste of space, and invite me to a martyrhood w/her.

 

Nope. 

 

MIL forgets DH's birthday. 
Every. single. year. 

 

But woe be unto you if you forget hers or SIL's. 

 

I don't like she forgets the boy's birthdays but whatever. But to forget your own son? Your oldest? Really? Makes me furious. I make a huge fuss over his birthday and when she was alive my Grandma did too. My Grandma adored my husband and he did the same to her. 

 

I don't speak to MIL any longer nor do I visit her. DH will take the boys to see her - just for the day but after the crud she and SIL pulled last year I don't feel one bit guilty about it. I don't talk bad about her to DH but I simply refuse to involve myself with them. As I told him - the last person I allowed to bully me is dead. Never again. 

 

DH wound up in the hospital with cellulitis in his leg last May. In March my grandma died of pancreatic cancer and my mother had died Dec the year before. I told DH if she wanted to come see him (like she never does but hey, never let a crisis go to waste) it would have to be for the day or SIL could get her a hotel. I could not deal with it. Period.

 

So SIL basically dumps her off at the hospital with him and all of them - including DH - expected me to just deal with it. I did not. I packed up the boys and left the hospital after telling DH - in front of MIL - that I had told him prior to her showing up that I was beyond the end of my very frayed emotional rope and I could not deal with her - at all. I told him I was sorry but I had warned him and I was not doing this.

 

SIL came and got her the next day and MIL managed to get herself a hotel room for the night. After she had gone DH called and apologized and since then seems to have realized that I meant what I said. I fully support him doing what he needs to for his Mom but I will not get into that toxic soup.  She has end stage COPD and heart issues but I swear she'll outlive us all.

 

I wish I could stop being angry all the time and I think the key to it is to let go and accept my mother was what she was and it really, truly was not my fault.

[Word Nerd]

How are these people made? How can I avoid making more (i.e. my children)?

I wonder this as well as what age it begins to be noticeable. DH has a 20-year-old family member who has enough of the traits associated with narcissism that I suspect he may have NPD. Then again, aren't teens prone to narcissism anyway, especially in this age of 24/7 social media when a person can have an audience whenever he wants it? I can especially relate to the previous posts about not knowing whether he's lying or delusional. Some of his many untruths are so absurd they insult the intelligence of whoever he's speaking to. I think in many instances he believes what he's saying, no matter how much it distorts reality. He definitely spins his accounts of past events to portray himself in a particular way--usually as someone to be pitied for having such a horrible experience and being so ill treated.

[Impish]

It took me a long time to get past the anger. It still flares now and then. More insidious (for me) is shaking off her voice. You know, the one that you hear in your head...the insults, the mocking, the tearing down...

 

Realizing that I'm not bound by the parameters she attempted to instill...I have a choice in who to be.

 

Wolf's been put on notice that I will NEVER tolerate being left alone w/MIL again. Last time she visited, she stayed Sat eve-Mon after supper. He worked Mon. So I was stuck w/her for over 10 hrs, alone.

 

Never again.

 

Since she puts her church retreat, class reunions, anyone and everyone else ahead of her only child and gc, we haven't had a visit from her in 3 yrs. When we saw her in 2012, she spared us a whole hr of her visit, snapping pics, and then disappeared w/out even bothering to say good bye. She had a banquet to get ready for, yanno. Way more important than spending time w/her ds and gc that she only sees once a yr. So what if there was a new baby, it's not like she didn't get pics to show off to everyone and play Grandmother Of The Year w/.

 

Same thing this yr. She went to her church retreat. No effort to see us, despite a new baby. She then whined and carried on about how much she miiiiiisssed us, blah blah blah. She actually seemed to think that we'd pack up 3 kids, a toddler, and a newborn, drive 2 days, etc to visit her. Uh, no. We're not a priority for you, don't expect to be one for us.

[countrygal]

I'm resurrecting this thread from a couple weeks ago, hope nobody minds. I just realized that my mother's behavior all these years actually has a name - NPD. All these years I couldn't explain what was so bad and hurtful about her behavior. I discovered the daughtersofnarcissiticmothers.com website. So much if it was my mom. Each of the characteristics brought certain memories of what she did to me as a child and now adult. Of course I could probably write a book on all the things she has done. She gets particularly bad around stressful times or big events (such as her daughters weddings! UGH! and the holidays.) Now she's blaming my sister and I for being so difficult because I asked what time we were eating Thanksgiving at her house. Apparently "it'll be ready when it's ready, I can't cater to you and your sister's demands." She has sent many nasty emails to my sister and one to me over the last week about how we are ungrateful and she never wants to get together with us ever again because we are so ungrateful. Her son is invited though because he doesn't care when or where or what they eat. Umm... I was just wondering what time you want us there and if I should feed my kids lunch or not..." My brother is her perfect child. He goes to keep her happy. He is well aware of what she does to us and doesn't defend either, but tries to keep the peace. My sister struggled for a long time seriously thinking it was all her problem and couldn't figure out why she could never do anything right. She is now accepting that it isn't her, it's our mom. My sister and I are close. We were equal victims of our mother's wrath. I never though it was my fault, I just couldn't figure out why she acted so unpredictably crazy!!! For the last few years I figured she is struggling with depression, which she very well may be, but I can't talk to her about it. She also did this to my father, who left her as soon as all us children left home. I talked to him about it recently and he said that it's terribly sad the way she is. He has banged his head against the wall for over 20 years, but I can't tell because his hair covers his scars. He said the only thing you can do is not talk to her and wait for it to blow over. I feel sorry for my dad, but he accepted it and has moved on. I believe he stayed with her to protect us, so that we wouldn't be alone with her. I am so thankful for him and I truly believe I'd be an emotional cripple if he was not there. I remember soooo many happy fun things we did with my dad. I don't ever remember my mom singing to me or wanting to play with us. From being very small I remember being terrified of her. Terrified that she'd yell at me if I woke her up at night because I was scared, terrified that she'd be mad because I was sick. I was a child when I made a conscious decision that I would never grow up to be like her.

 

I think the hardest thing, though, is that she is really suffering inside and she is shutting everyone out of her life. I want to help her. Trying to accept that I can't is extremely hard. I grieve for her. I grieve for a mother I didn't have and never will have. Her mother and older sister have been hermits for over 20 years. They live 20 miles away from me and don't have a phone. I haven't stopped in 5 years because of how my grandmother (mom's mom) made comments to me of how she was so disrupted from unexpected visitors. Sorry I brought your great-grandchildren for you to see. I haven't been back. Now I see the connection. My grandmother abandoned her children (6 of them 5-14 yrs old) for 2 months when my mother was 9. Her father spent that time looking for her. She came back, but divorced him. I believe that my mother was emotionally scarred by her mother. She has talked of how her mother is difficult but refuses to get into details. I so wish I could help her. Being superficial with her has worked for me the last few years. I learned that I could share anything good or bad with her because of the comments "it must be nice to have money." or "if you'd quit being such an overachiever you wouldn't be so stressed..." Now I'm coaching my sister on how to be superficial. This is the first time I've received her wrath in a long time... maybe a couple years. My sister has been the victim the last couple years. I won't go no contact with her unless I feel she is harming my children. I don't leave them with her anymore. I'm afraid she won't get them gifts or want to see them now for Christmas and purposely hurt them just to get at me. They are now old enough to notice, "why haven't we seen Grandma in a long time?" Sigh.... I guess we'll see what happens over time. I am seeing that she is getting worse with age, like her mother.

 

Here is a link to ways to honor your parents in a Christian perspective. Scroll to the bottom to see the list. The website has other good articles and Bible verses:

 

http://postcardstoanarcissist.wordpress.com/what-does-the-bible-say-about-narcissism/

 

Thanks for letting me vent as well. I could resonate with many of your stories and hurts.

[Alicia64]

 Now she's blaming my sister and I for being so difficult because I asked what time we were eating Thanksgiving at her house. Apparently "it'll be ready when it's ready, I can't cater to you and your sister's demands."

 

My mom has said that to be so many times. She always made it seem like a simple request for information was somehow incredibly rude and pushy of me to ask.

 

You are so lucky that you have your dad and your sister. And you have a brother who somewhat "gets it."

 

I try not to be an emotional cripple, but having a mom and a dad w/ NPD -- my dad is violent -- and a sister who apparently picked it up from them, I'm just amazed I'm still standing.

 

Really: take great joy in the people you do have. Your sister sounds fantastic.

 

I'm glad you brought this thread back to life. Thank you. The site I used to go to fairly regularly has been down for months now -- it was a support site for daughter of narcissists. (I really miss it. Especially during the holidays.)

 

Take care,

 

Alley

[wapiti]

It has taken so many years for me to realize that my mother has issues.  I don't necessarily think NPD, though so many little bits in this thread ring true (and yet not others).

 

In her case, she has some depression and I think a long-standing though perhaps mild(?) alcohol problem.  She genuinely intends to be a good person (she was a nun, for pete's sake).  She's very religious and her entire self-image is wrapped up in serving others and it's very difficult when she can't see that her "help" - when it comes to me, anyway - is all about what will make her feel good that she did for me rather than what I'd really like her to help me with (which, at this point, is absolutely nothing).  I'd still like to get her involved in some sort of charity efforts to help others so she won't keep trying to help me (help me like folding all the messy clothes in my closet, "organizing" my kitchen desk so that I can't find any important papers, scolding my children, reorganizing the messy toys, etc.).  It bugs the snot out of me that whenever she gives me a suggestion of any kind, I immediately take it as criticism, and will go out of my way to avoid the suggestion even if (as rarely happens) it's a good one.  I can't give her the satisfaction - why in the world do I feel that way?  That seems ridiculous.

 

She recently "threatened" to retire to my state.  I hope my siblings will back me up that this would be a bad location.  I want to just say no outright, but she would be so hurt - super-sensitive.

 

She is a master of guilt ("you disappointed me").

 

She likes to try to manipulate me into doing things by offering to pay for them ("are you sure a hearing aid can't help dh?  because I would pay for it.  I would be willing to pay for that.  I've been thinking about it all morning."  umm, it's not like we can't afford it.)

 

She has no idea who I am (introverted) though I have long blamed that on her extroverted personality.  Any time she praises me for anything, it feels fake to me because she doesn't really know me.  

 

She likes to buy people expensive presents so that they will think of her when she is gone.

 

She automatically assumes that I should run my house (she rearranged my spices) and parent my kids ("humph.  well, I would never allow that.") the way she did and is shocked, shocked I tell you, that my ways are different.

 

It seems like I'm starting to see the beginnings of dementia or alzheimers and I'm petrified.  My brothers see it a little, but not as much.  She's 75 and has at least another 20 years in her, like her mother.  Why did she yell at my grandmother on the phone?  I will never understand their relationship (my grandmother passed away last spring at 95).

 

I have started to ignore things she says that bother me.  I automatically don't tell her anything about my life anymore because it always ends up that I'm not doing it right, if you know what I mean, even if it has nothing to do with me (say, a medical thing - well, why didn't you ask the doctor this question?)

 

I even caught her trying to rearrange my basement at 1:30 am on the last night she was here last winter.  I started to yell at her (a rare event) and she started crying "oh please don't yell at me. If you forgive me then that's the end of it."  She was like a little girl.  It was really weird!  That's why I'm wondering about alzheimers.

 

Thanks for this cathartic thread even if NPD isn't what my mother's issue is.  And pray for me.  She arrives a week from tonight, for 8 days.  Every time she visits, I literally calculate the hours in my head until she is gone.

 

Eta, now I feel guilty for even posting in this thread.

[QuirkyKapers]

My mom and dad both are narcisstic.  My mom passed away a few years ago.  In her way, she loved me.  However, I realize now that I have children, the way she loved me was so contingent on my conforming to her wants and needs and being who she thought I should be.  The walking on eggshells because you never really know what to expect, has made me really tuned in to situations and things most people don't even notice.  Two edged sword there.  I used to repeat every conversation I had and what my mom said verbatim.  It was horrible to realize that I was doing this as a protective measure because I had no other control.  I thought I was losing my mind because the conversations and accusations would be so wacky and cruel. Thinking that if I would just do, or say or be the right way, the madness would stop.  Fact is, no one would believe me about my mom.  She was a soft talking, Godly and very sweet women in others eyes.  She was very good at the veneer she showed others.  She knew only to say cruel things when other witnesses weren't present.  I was too fat, which I wasn't. I talked to loud, which I sometimes do but mostly when I am nervous and feel like I am walking on eggshells.  The house had to be quiet.  Too much ruckous or laughter or frivolty, we would get in trouble.  My mom had health issues so everything revolved around her perceived and some real health issues.  I was often told by mom dad that I had to be careful that "I didn't wear her out".  She called me names that were hurtful, and told me the only guy who would want to marry me would have to be someone who was deaf.   Searched my room whenever she wanted.  She told lies about things she had done and placed the blame on me (took out a credit card in my name and spent over $500.00 when I was at college.  The college I was at was in the middle of nowhere, the nearest mall being 45 minutes away.  My dad took her side and I had to pay the bill). 

 

Now that she is gone, I deal with the fallout.  My relatives believed what she told them about me, I'm extroverted, I'm loud, I can't ever sit still, I am way to sensitive....the list is extensive. It is a long journey toward healing and coming to terms that I really do know who I am, even if others in the family will never see the real me but see the picture of me my mom created.  I also realize I used to attract narcisstic friends like a cow does flies.  After I moved out, my friendships were progressively healthier.   I dealt with my mom when she was alive but limiting contact to about 1 time, no more than twice a month.  If we had more contact than that, it was like a hurtfest where my mom would open fire about all the ways I was a failure.  

 

 

 

Good luck! 

[MBM]

My MIL probably has NPD although it's never been formally diagnosed. The problem children face is that the coping techniques developed in childhood that enabled them to live around a narcissist might not be well-suited for their adult lives. For example, my husband tends to be passive-avoidant. This worked well when dealing with his mother when he was a child but it doesn't work well now when dealing with people who are not narcissists. 

 

Joanne recently posted a link explaining how to respond to people who have NPD. My husband grew to deal with his mother exactly as the link described.

 

Brain imaging studies show that people who are narcissistic sociopaths are not able to *feel* other people's emotions. The three main varieties of empathy are cognitive empathy, emotional empathy, and empathic concern. In a healthy person, all three work, but a sociopath is only able to experience cognitive empathy. They cannot tune in to other people's feelings. And they don't care. If a person who is not a sociopath were to listen to a sad story, the listener's brain would light up neural circuits that mimic how the storyteller's brain is lighting up and they would both experience similar feelings. This doesn't happen with narcissistic sociopaths. If you want to read more, Dan Goleman's book Focus explains this in detail in chapter 10.

 

Children of parents who have NPD have a tough life. You all have my sympathy.

 

[gardenmom5]

hugs.  that was a great website.  I finally understood my grandmother.

 

there isn't much you can do other than impose hard and fast boundaries to protect yourself. it's up to you to decide what you can and can't live with. if she has a tantrum over your boundary-line, c'est la vie. tune her out.  you're lucky your brother even recognizes anything wrong.  most golden children do not.   (they are the least likely to break free of the mind games because of it.)

 

there is one type of therapy that will supposedly help - but if your mother doesn't recognize anything, and doesn't want to change, it doesn't have even a hope of working.

 

dialectical behavior therapy.  it was developed by a university of Washington clinical psychologist who realized she was exhibiting symptoms of a personality disorder.  I question how severe her case was - as npd'ers do not generally recognize anything they do as wrong.  it's one of the traits of the condition.

[gardenmom5]

I thought I was losing my mind

Fact is, no one would believe me about my mom.  She was a soft talking, Godly and very sweet women in others eyes. 

Now that she is gone, I deal with the fallout.  My relatives believed what she told them about me,

 

It is a long journey toward healing and coming to terms that I really do know who I am, even if others in the family will never see the real me but see the picture of me my mom created. 

 

I dealt with my mom when she was alive but limiting contact to about 1 time, no more than twice a month.  If we had more contact than that, it was like a hurtfest where my mom would open fire about all the ways I was a failure.  

 

Here is blog I really like: http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/

 

Good luck! 

this is classic. 

you think you're crazy, and if you try to tell anyone, they think you're crazy or "overly sensitive". finding the daughters of narcisstic mothers website was a godsend.  everything finally made sense.

 

I have no contact with my brother.  I think he's npd, and he was the golden child.  he frequently would berate me for thinking grandmother was awful.  (and the day he described his ex-wife and I said "that sounds like grandmother" . . . . I would not have been surprised if he tried to throttle me he was so angry - but he was driving down the freeway.)   he seems to be getting worse as he gets older - if that's possible.

[Twigs]

… Joanne recently posted a link explaining how to respond to people who have NPD. My husband grew to deal with his mother exactly as the link described. …

Does anyone have this link?

 

Thanks.

[Alicia64]

I think it's somewhat standard that these people get worse with age.

 

My parents had me very young -- at 20 -- and I finally gave up when they (both of my parents) started attacking first my niece then one of my sons. That was it.

 

Not on my watch.

 

It's bad enough that they went after me all those years but they weren't going after my child.

 

So I've been "NC" or "no contact" for 1.5 years now. And we live 3,000 miles away which feels good. Sad at the holidays, but overall it was an excellent decision. Plus I had to protect my son -- and his brother the designated "golden child."

 

Does anyone know what happened to the Daughters of Narcissists site? It's been down for so long.

 

Any chance we can start a special group on here? I don't know how.

 

Alley
 

[gardenmom5]

 

 

Does anyone know what happened to the Daughters of Narcissists site? It's been down for so long.

 

Any chance we can start a special group on here? I don't know how.

 

Alley
 

are you using an old link?

http://daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/  works fine for me.  (or is this a completely different page?)

doing a group could be good therapy - especially for those who are early in recognition of what is going on in their lives. 

it was certainly helpful for me in figuring out how "to let go".

[MBM]

Does anyone have this link?

 

Thanks.

 

It's this one:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/490949-good-article-on-high-conflict-divorce-and-npd-since-it-comes-up-with-board-members-or-board-member-friends/?hl=joanne#entry5246529

[Twigs]

It's this one:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/490949-good-article-on-high-conflict-divorce-and-npd-since-it-comes-up-with-board-members-or-board-member-friends/?hl=joanne#entry5246529

Thank You!

[Alicia64]

are you using an old link?

http://daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/  works fine for me.  (or is this a completely different page?)

doing a group could be good therapy - especially for those who are early in recognition of what is going on in their lives. 

it was certainly helpful for me in figuring out how "to let go".

 

That link is fine -- but it's the forum on that link that's not active anymore. It was a forum just like the one we're on now, but it's been down for months.

 

I really miss it especially during the holidays.

 

Again, could we start a group on TWTM for daughters of narcissists? I'm not sure how to get one going.

 

Alley

[linders]

A sad raised hand here. Examples:

 

- Mom is in good health but not once, not for an hour, has babysat, even when staying with us for a week. "I already raised my kids." She insisted that she should wait at least 3 weeks after the births to visit so as not to intrude (i.e., not help). And then she only stayed 2 days each time. Apparently as a guest (or so she expected).

 

- When on an extended visit to us, DS-then-8 asked her if she could come watch his swim meet - a small affair, only 5 minutes away, lots of seating in the shade, only 1 hour - "No, dear, I think I'll stay home and check my emails. But you have fun!" The crestfallen look broke my heart. She has never once come to a performance or event for the boys. Never. "But do send pictures!" Yet she gets to all her own activities.

 

- She is terrific about sending cards for birthdays, but has never once included a personal note or even signed it "Love." Just "Mom" or "Grandma."

 

Enough. My goal is to be unlike her.

 

[NicAnn]

****She has no idea who I am (introverted) though I have long blamed that on her extroverted personality. Any time she praises me for anything, it feels fake to me because she doesn't really know me.****

She likes to buy people expensive presents so that they will think of her when she is gone.

She automatically assumes that I should run my house (she rearranged my spices) and parent my kids ("humph. well, I would never allow that.") the way she did and is shocked, shocked I tell you, that my ways are different.

It seems like I'm starting to see the beginnings of dementia or alzheimers and I'm petrified. My brothers see it a little, but not as much. She's 75 and has at least another 20 years in her, like her mother. Why did she yell at my grandmother on the phone? I will never understand their relationship (my grandmother passed away last spring at 95).

The fake praise! Yes mine does this. In one our last conversations she repeatedly told me how creative I am. Over and over about how creative I am and how much she loves it. I'm the opposite of creative, never have been, and never tried to be. It was so weird and uncomfortable.

[pdalley]

A sad raised hand here. Examples:

 

- Mom is in good health but not once, not for an hour, has babysat, even when staying with us for a week. "I already raised my kids." She insisted that she should wait at least 3 weeks after the births to visit so as not to intrude (i.e., not help). And then she only stayed 2 days each time. Apparently as a guest (or so she expected).

 

- When on an extended visit to us, DS-then-8 asked her if she could come watch his swim meet - a small affair, only 5 minutes away, lots of seating in the shade, only 1 hour - "No, dear, I think I'll stay home and check my emails. But you have fun!" The crestfallen look broke my heart. She has never once come to a performance or event for the boys. Never. "But do send pictures!" Yet she gets to all her own activities.

 

- She is terrific about sending cards for birthdays, but has never once included a personal note or even signed it "Love." Just "Mom" or "Grandma."

 

Enough. My goal is to be unlike her.

 

 

My Mom and my MIL fit the criteria. 

 

My MIL NEVER has sent DH a card on his birthday but expects us to throw a freaking parade on her birthday. She doesn't remember the boys' birthdays either but I don't mind that. You don't forget your kid's birthday. 

 

Mom always overdid birthdays and Christmas but boy did she extract her pound of flesh for it.  In front of people she talked about how great I was but in private I couldn't do anything right.

[countrygal]

That link is fine -- but it's the forum on that link that's not active anymore. It was a forum just like the one we're on now, but it's been down for months.

 

I really miss it especially during the holidays.

 

Again, could we start a group on TWTM for daughters of narcissists? I'm not sure how to get one going.

 

Alley

 

I think it's a really good idea to start a group. I don't know how to get a group going either. I don't know if I'd want to be the 'leader' of one either since I'm not always frequent on here. I think you should try! Maybe someone else can...

[Alicia64]

I think it's a really good idea to start a group. I don't know how to get a group going either. I don't know if I'd want to be the 'leader' of one either since I'm not always frequent on here. I think you should try! Maybe someone else can...

 

DH will know. When he comes home tonight I'll ask him to set up a special group and I'll let everyone know about it once it's up.

 

Alley

[acsnmama]

Dealing with it today. I've dealt with it nearly all my life. I didn't even think of narcissism until I read this thread.

I have always questioned myself of whether my thoughts were out of line. I have always felt I must be overly critical, and that the problem was me. I've been sucked into this game and I had very little respect for her growing up, I wasn't a good child, but had a lot of hurt. Last year I experienced horrific depression. She came to my rescue for a time, however, while my depression and panic attacks stemmed from some of my own regret from the past, it was compounded by realizing I wasn't truly at fault. Yet I still live with self criticism.

I haven't cut ties because it will be a huge ordeal. I'm scared to honestly. I have rarely confronted her directly because it always ends up being turned around on me and I end up being the one in tears. Then that's when I start thinking I must be crazy, and I must have been out of line. A vicious cycle.

I am so tired of dodging issues. I'm emotionally exhausted.

[Hen]

acsnmama,

 

I didn't cut ties with my n mom, I just stopped making efforts to see her, the relationship just died off...though this worked because she was the ignoring kind- she was wrapped up in herself and didn't think of others, didn't usually think to call, never wanted to visit or do anything out of the way of what she likes to do.  If your mom is like this, you could just slowly widen your contact to not be so close and then from there, distance yourself even more, in a subtle way.  Sorry for your pain, I deal with depression, too.

[acsnmama]

Mind you my mother doesn't fit all of the characteristics but MANY. There are other issues, like hoarding (subtle type, house is full, but not filthy and piled up, but has a spending problem).

I wish I could just let our relationship dwindle, however, she will end up coming over unannounced. I can avoid for a time, but not long, especially not now because of the holidays.

[plansrme]

The fake praise! Yes mine does this. In one our last conversations she repeatedly told me how creative I am. Over and over about how creative I am and how much she loves it. I'm the opposite of creative, never have been, and never tried to be. It was so weird and uncomfortable.

I had never even connected this before, but my mom does this also, both to me and my kids. She will tell me how beautiful I am--I am not, never have been, and make up all sorts of crazy insights about my kids, whom she barely knows. She will go on and on to make herself seem smart and insightful? I don't know, but it is weird.

[NicAnn]

I had never even connected this before, but my mom does this also, both to me and my kids. She will tell me how beautiful I am--I am not, never have been, and make up all sorts of crazy insights about my kids, whom she barely knows. She will go on and on to make herself seem smart and insightful? I don't know, but it is weird.

Mine hasn't met my kids, but tells everyone they have a deep bond and even though I'm "keeping them away from her" she knows they are connected.

[acsnmama]

Do any of you ever feel bad when a friend raves about her mother and how wonderful she is? Maybe that's a silly question because I would imagine most would want a mother who is a friend, someone she can look up to. I feel wounded when I see people on FB posting little sayings about how they hope to be like their mom and how much of a blessing she is in life. I don't feel that way.

My mother is a homeschool mom as well. I have young siblings, and I even worry, what if she's on this forum?! Oh well. I can't allow these things to rule me! And if by chance she was a member here, she would pretend she had no idea, she would never approach me about this.

I don't want to bash, I want to show respect but I also wish others understood. Some know she's difficult or eccentric but I'm not sure they know to what degree. There is never a dull moment. There's always something.

I was homeschooled for high school and didn't like it. I swore I would never in a million years homeschool my kids, especially because she's forever shoving homeschooling down people's throat. She practically begged me to homeschool, I refused. After sending my son to kinder for a month and had uneasy feelings about the school, I pulled him. It had nothing to do with her, I don't know if she thinks it does, but I don't care, because there was no mistake that God was leading our family down this path. All God's plan, not hers, not of my own, etc. I couldn't be more grateful for homeschooling. I never want to send them to school, however, I sincerely did not want to appease her!

She has also taken up many of my hobbies. I could go on and on, as I'm sure you all could!

[Alicia64]

Hi Everyone,

 

I started a Social Group called Narcissistic Personality: Staying Sane. I sent everyone on this thread an invite -- and I apologize if I sent to some of your twice; I didn't mean to!

 

I thought our own social group would  be a great place to get together and offer support, advice, inspiration.

 

The camaraderie on this thread has been really helpful to me.

 

Take care,

 

Alley

[momee]

So much I could say but I think this quote will suffice...when I read it I almost lost my breath.  So sad to hear how similar so much of what I've been feeling lately has been echoed in this post.

 

"I think the hardest thing, though, is that she is really suffering inside and she is shutting everyone out of her life. I want to help her. Trying to accept that I can't is extremely hard. I grieve for her. I grieve for a mother I didn't have and never will have. "

[Guest Deblyvan]

My mother has NPD.  I always knew something was very wrong with the way she was but I always just thought her behavior was because she was abused by an alcoholic father.  I didn't know there was an actual name for her way of being until recently.  As we all know, Mothers who have NPD, the way they are with their children is extremely unhealthy and abusive.  They usually 'divide and conquer' the children through a 'cast' type system.  Golden child vs. scape goat.  My brother was the golden child, I was the scape goat.  My brother could do no wrong and I could do no right.  I've recently discovered that I fit pretty much all the criteria for BPD.  This is terrible because I fought so much as a child to not succumb to the abuse.  When she was in a narcissistic rage I would leave the house...  I told myself, "No matter what, I will break the chains of abuse.  I will NEVER treat my children this way."  All of the protection I gave myself as a child in order to survive her abuse was actually me, myself forming a personality disorder.  I don't know how to relate to others because I was hurt so consistently as a child.  People actually scare me.  Love to me is equal to rejection.  I have never felt love without rejection.  When I love someone they now have the ability to hurt me through rejection, it's terrible living this way.  I have hope that I can heal.  I will never have children until I am healed.  I will break the chains of abuse no matter what.  If that means not having children, than that is what I'll do.

My question is...  My father who is my best friend, enables my mother.  He is abused severely by her but has always chosen her over us.  He lives in complete denial.  When I first discovered NPD I mentioned it to him and read a few articles to him.  He said, "Woah.....  That sounds like your mom."  After a little time he called me and said, "You're mother doesn't have NPD."  As a child he would always tell us to "Don't give in.  When your mother says something, just be quiet.  Don't make it worse."  This was always hard for me.  I felt she was stealing my dignity and self respect and I needed to protect it.  If I would fight back then she would attack everyone else in the house and then they would all get mad at me for giving in and fighting with her.  I ended up secluding myself a lot.  In my bedroom...  I use to go to the nature reserve, I pretty much lived there.  I would only go home to sleep.

I now live in Arizona.  I moved across the country..  My family lives in Massachusetts.  I have not started therapy yet because I literally just found out about BPD a few months ago and have only recently gotten on health insurance.  But as far as my father goes, how should I treat this situation?  I know she abuses him.  I want to be there for him but he is also keeping me connected to the abuse.  He will never leave her.  How do I deal with this situation?  My father really is the sweetest, most lovable person I have ever met.  I think my mother hated me so much growing up because she was jealous of my relationship with my dad.  She felt threatened I would take her narcissistic supply so she made me the enemy of the family.  I remember getting yelled at as a kid and not having any idea of what I did wrong.  She would even have my father yell at me for things and I remember it not making any sense at all...  I want to save my dad, I want to save my relationship with him.  What is the best way to treat him and the situation.  I'm concerned for my own well being but also his.  If anyone has any advice I would greatly appreciate it.  Thank you.  

[Mimm]

There is no way to argue against any of this--who really remembers what happened 20 years ago?

 

This made me laugh. My mother has Borderline Personality Disorder which is NPD's whiny, not quite as evil little sister. We just recently had a fight that started over me asking her to do something for my sister that she said she would do and is her responsibility (my sister lives with me or I wouldn't be involved in this whole stupid thing to begin with). But the fight ended up with her bringing stuff up from 10, 20, 30 years ago. I'm 33 and she brought up stuff that my dad did when I was very little! They never forget, never forgive. But they don't remember accurately either. She accused me of stuff that I know for a fact didn't happen but she won't believe me. It's exhausting, infuriating and depressing.

 

As far as personality disorders go, I don't know if it's possible to have a healthy relationship with these people at all. In order for them to get help, they have to actually recognize that they have a problem which is just unthinkable. I told my mother I needed some distance for a while and she's respecting that. But I don't know if I'll ever be ready to give her another chance. I'm not really angry at her. I'm just done. Done with the drama, the guilt and the manipulation.

[gardenmom5]

My mother has NPD. 

My question is...  My father who is my best friend, enables my mother.  
I now live in Arizona.  I moved across the country..  My family lives in Massachusetts.  

 How do I deal with this situation?   

you've made the first step.

do find a therapist who is familiar with  dialectical behavior modification therapy.  it was designed specifically for those with personality disorders, by a clinical psychologist with BPD.

 

you need to prepare to enforce boundaries even with your father. 

 

read the book boundaries: when to say yes, how to say no it also has a workbook to go along with it.

 

daughers of narcisstic mothers is a very useful site.

 

believe it or not, as the scapegoat you are better off than your golden child sibling.  the golden children usually end up with messed up lives, and no clue why.  (they can often become npd as well.).  there's also the 'victim' who gets "rescued" (after being pushed off the cliff.)  scapegoats often realize something is wrong - even if they don't know what.  learning about NPD was a real eureka moment for me, and the last pieces of a puzzle.

[gardenmom5]

 the fight ended up with her bringing stuff up from 10, 20, 30 years ago.   They never forget, never forgive. But they don't remember accurately either.

 

my grandmother was the BPC charmer in my life. (and my mother had the misfortune of being an only child)  my great-aunt/sister - beloved by all of their extensive neices and nephews, came to me one day wanting to knowy why my grandmother hated her.  um, well, near as I could figure, something that happed 30 odd years previously (or more).  my grandmother didn't remember what it was, just that she was mad.  that woman could hold a grudge forever.

 

and it's true, they only remember things from the perspective of someone doing them wrong.  and if the facts are "inconvenient", they'll rearrange them in their head so they fit the narrative. they are deeply unhappy people, and you absolutely cannot reason with them.

 

so, boundaries (which can vary widely) are your only option.  when you enact boundaries, stand back because you're going to get a volcanic explosion.  this is actually good it means they've taken notice things have changed, - and whatever you do,  DO. NOT. CAVE.

[OnTheBrink]

Ah, the sibling issues too.  I was the scapegoat and my sister, 9 years younger, was the golden child.  We've never been close and barely spoke even before things were cut off with my mother.  I hear she's finally moved out though.

 

This is me, except it's my brother who's nine years younger--and he's the golden child. I told him once that her hand is so far up his *** that his mouth only moves when her fingers wiggle. He had no idea what I meant by that. I gave up. 

 

I often struggled with the issue with honoring my mother. My pastor said in this situation, not engaging and giving her more options to sin with her behavior is more honoring to her soul than trying to reconcile with her, given her narcissism. 

 

I honestly don't think I'll cry over her death. Maybe tears of sadness for what never was, but I can't imagine being sad the one person who spent most of my life crapping on me being gone.

[G5052]

I now live in Arizona.  I moved across the country..  My family lives in Massachusetts.  I have not started therapy yet because I literally just found out about BPD a few months ago and have only recently gotten on health insurance.  But as far as my father goes, how should I treat this situation?  I know she abuses him.  I want to be there for him but he is also keeping me connected to the abuse.  He will never leave her.  How do I deal with this situation?  My father really is the sweetest, most lovable person I have ever met.  I think my mother hated me so much growing up because she was jealous of my relationship with my dad.  She felt threatened I would take her narcissistic supply so she made me the enemy of the family.  I remember getting yelled at as a kid and not having any idea of what I did wrong.  She would even have my father yell at me for things and I remember it not making any sense at all...  I want to save my dad, I want to save my relationship with him.  What is the best way to treat him and the situation.  I'm concerned for my own well being but also his.  If anyone has any advice I would greatly appreciate it.  Thank you.  

 

FWIW, your mother hates you for far more than your relationship with your dad.  Don't blame yourself for her actions.  And for better or worse, he has chosen his situation.  As long as your mother is there (and maybe even after), your relationship with him will probably be poisoned by her.

 

In the last year of my father's life, I became so disgusted by the level of abuse my father was suffering (she could have been prosecuted), that I called Adult Protective Services.  And he refused to file a report.  He also refused help when both his doctor and home health tried to pursue getting him out of there.  In the end he spent the last few months of his life in the hospital and then in a nursing home, so at least he got a break from her.  My mother prevented me from contacting him during that period by having him sign a form that he wanted no contact with me.  She told the medical personnel that I was mentally ill.

 

I'm sorry that you're going through this, but indeed the whole thing is very ugly.  It my case, it only got worse and worse.  I loved my father as well, but he also didn't stand up for me against my mother.  And that's not right either.

[DawnM]

My mother is very narcissistic.  She turns everything into "its all about me."

 

When I would get sick as a child, we had to stop and talk about how it made her feel for me to be sick.   My aunt died this week and she turned it into something about HER.  It had nothing to do with her.  I had to get off the phone quickly, I couldn't take it.

 

She plays loads of guilt trips.  She helped pay for my son's cell phone and now says he has to talk to her when she calls because she bought him the phone.  UGH.

 

She has decided I raise my kids wrong and has told me that my middle son is verbally abused by his brothers and by us.  She read some book on middle child syndrome and has decided my son has it.  He doesn't.  It is all a contrived perception.  She has sent me and my sons letters telling us how my poor middle child is neglected and abused and it is all our fault.

 

We try to keep our distance.  She feels that it is her business to tell us how to do things and how to raise our kids and that as a Christian I should respect that and let her into every aspect of our lives......she quote scripture and then makes comments like, "it says right here, so there is NO QUESTION you should do it this way."

 

I could go on and on, but that is the gist.

 

She is 82.  It has gotten far worse in the last 15 years or so.

 

Dawn

[plansrme]

 

 

She is 82.  It has gotten far worse in the last 15 years or so.

 

 

Oh great.  My mom is 67, so she will be 82 in 15 years.  So happy to know it's only going to get worse.  

[DawnM]

My mother fits over 90% of this list:

 

Will I Ever Be Good Enough? Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers

( survey excerpted from book)

(Check all those that apply to your relationship with your mother)

1. When you discuss your life issues with your mother, does she divert the discussion to talk about herself?
2. When you discuss your feelings with your mother, does she try to top the feeling with her own?
3. Does your mother act jealous of you?
4. Does your mother lack empathy for your feelings?
5. Does your mother only support those things you do that reflect on her as a “good mother”?
6. Have you consistently felt a lack of emotional closeness with your mother?
7. Have you consistently questioned whether or not your mother likes you or loves you?
8. Does your mother only do things for you when others can see?
9. When something happens in your life (accident, illness, divorce), does your mother react with how it will affect her rather than how you feel?
10. Is or was your mother overly conscious of what others think (neighbors, friends, family, co-workers)?
11. Does your mother deny her own feelings?
12. Does your mother blame things on you or others rather than own responsibility for her own feelings or actions?
13. Is or was your mother hurt easily and then carries a grudge for a long time without resolving the problem?
14. Do you feel you were a slave to your mother?
15. Do you feel you were responsible for your mother’s ailments or sickness (headaches, stress, illness)?
16. Did you have to take care of your mother’s physical needs as a child?
17. Do you feel unaccepted by your mother?
18. Do you feel your mother was critical of you?
19. Do you feel helpless in the presence of your mother?
20. Are you shamed often by your mother?
21. Do you feel your mother knows the real you?
22. Does your mother act like the world should revolve around her?
23. Do you find it difficult to be a separate person from your mother?
24. Does your mother appear phony to you?
25. Does your mother want to control your choices?
26. Does your mother swing from egotistical to depressed mood?
27. Did you feel you had to take care of your mother’s emotional needs as a child?
28. Do you feel manipulated in the presence of your mother?
29. Do you feel valued, by mother, for what you do rather than who you are?
30. Is your mother controlling, acting like a victim or martyr?
31. Does your mother make you act different from how you really feel?
32. Does your mother compete with you?
33. Does your mother always have to have things her way?

Note: All of these questions relate to narcissistic traits. The more questions you checked, the more likely your mother has narcissistic traits and this has caused some difficulty for you as a growing daughter and adult.

 

[DawnM]

With her health issues I am surprised she has lived this long.

 

Since she turned 40 she has been saying, "Well, I could die this year, how could you make it a memorable year for ME?"

 

Um, 42 memorable years where we focus on YOU and what YOU want......sounds great.  :glare:

 

 

Oh great.  My mom is 67, so she will be 82 in 15 years.  So happy to know it's only going to get worse.  

 

[Venia]

I am sorry I did not see this thread earlier. I too am reading and nodding with every single post. Both my parents fit 30 out of 33 of those questions posted by DawnM. I am pretty damaged by it and all I can do is do everything possible to make sure my relationship with kids is completely different. I could write a book on all the crazy things they have done. I noticed things were "off" with my parents early on in my teens. My brother, on the other hand, only noticed this past winter (he is 3 years older too). Unfortunately, he is just like them which I I truly believe was his mechanism/response to the abuse. I mourn the lost relationship with him, probably more than the one with my parents... Its sad all around.

I have accepted the fact that I will never be the person they expected me to be, nor be loved by them. My poor hubby too; having to deal my parents. They are so cruel to him. He is the most loving and supportive spouse who has made huge sacrifices for his family (he is a SAHD), yet cant do anything right because he does not fit the imaginary "husband mold". I am at the crux of cutting them out of our lives for the sake of my husband and kids. My DH's family is so far away, so my kids really have no grandparents, cousins or active aunts/uncles in their lives and it kills me. My folks recently made the decision to move out of state to live out their retirement dream and succumb to their new paranoia (they have gone off the deep-end lately about the government "stealing" their money and how the USA is going to have a civil war, etc etc). They have been begging us to move with them despite the fact that there is nothing there that appeals to my family. Its all part of their plan to be our "saviors" of course..... Anyway, this is the first time they are actually doing us a favor. They are leaving. Im sure the guilt trips will follow about how much they miss the kids and how selfish we are for not moving...blah blah blah. Ugh....

:grouphug: to you all

[LaxMom]

Dawn, I had to snicker reading that list... 11. Deny *her* feelings? Never! Puh-lease!

When I read that book, every section had me snorting out loud and telling my husband stories on the feature being discussed. I've been no-contact with my mother for nearly a decade (other than breaking it to help care for my grandmother in her last weeks, mainly to give my (normal) aunt a break) and have come to the place where I can laugh about the comedy of errors that was my life prior to that. It was way less humorous living in it, though.

[gardenmom5]

M

She has decided I raise my kids wrong

 

well, of course you're raising them wrong.  they don't worship her.  sheesh.  ;)

Oh great.  My mom is 67, so she will be 82 in 15 years.  So happy to know it's only going to get worse.  

 

part of the getting worse is just what happens when the brain ages, how it can make some people "more" what they are really like deep down as they lose filters.  some of the typical dementia things get added in. my grandmother's health failed so spectacularly the last year of her life (she was unconcious most of the time), her actual death was anticlimatic.  I think it was an opportunity for my golden-child/victim sister to emotionally detach (which she didn't.).  It was very cathartic for my mother, who said she felt nothing but relief - and she did much better after her mother finally blessed us all by dying.

 

My mil isn't NPD (but she certainly comes close sometimes), but my sils were describing new behaviors that sounded more age related. mil has slowed *considerably* as her physical health has severely limited her movement. she's currently in a wheelchair, and can't do stairs even if she's upright.  her children are all good at enforcing boundaries with her, much to her frustration.  mil is 88.

With her health issues I am surprised she has lived this long.

we've concluded mil is going to live forever.  she's too ornery to die.    

[aggie96]

Not my mother, but I'm pretty sure my mother's mother was. I think that affected the way my mother parented, and not in a positive way. I'm only beginning to understand why my mother did some of the things she did when my brothers and I were children. I see her fighting the temptation to be like her mother, and we have a much better relationship now than we did when I was growing up.

 

 

This is me, too.  I feel like my grandmother broke my mother, and she never recovered from her youth. Suffice to say, I adamantly disagree/d with my mother's parenting approach to my brother and me.  But I saw the wretched meanness of my grandmother towards my mother when my mom had to care for and handle my grandfather's death (her parents were divorced when she was little and my grandfather is a @!*&^%&^ also).  I had to intervene to protect my mom (mentally) which was weird because I have some scars myself from my childhood.  It was just unreal and awful.

[gardenmom5]

Dawn, I had to snicker reading that list... 11. Deny *her* feelings? Never! Puh-lease!

When I read that book, every section had me snorting out loud and telling my husband stories on the feature being discussed. I've been no-contact with my mother for nearly a decade (other than breaking it to help care for my grandmother in her last weeks, mainly to give my (normal) aunt a break) and have come to the place where I can laugh about the comedy of errors that was my life prior to that. It was way less humorous living in it, though.

 

I think this is what has kept mil under control. fil (long deceased) and her kids made light of the behaviors, which undermines power she might get out of them.  we tell "dotty" stories - as they can be quite entertaining.  one person (who has met mil a number of times) thought they were exaggerations, and wanted assurances they were.  um, no.

 

I admit - after hearing some of her stories, I thought they were exaggerations.  until I got to really know her.  . .   (that and found box after box after box after box after box that fit the description of how she cleans out a purse . . . . after living with us for less than a year and packing the closet full of boxes like she was going to be back.  I will admit looking over my shoulder for two weeks expecting her to come through the door saying she "forgot something".  even after speaking with her on the phone when she was 900 miles away I was looking over my shoulder.)

 

mil was leaving the country for a year, so sil got several friends to come live with her at the family home.  then mil's visa was delayed 30 days.  sil apologized to all her friends in advance, assured them it was *only* 30 days, and they assured her it was no problem  . . . . . it wasn't too long before the refrain was: when. is. she. LEAVING?!?!?!?!?.

[G5052]

Oh great.  My mom is 67, so she will be 82 in 15 years.  So happy to know it's only going to get worse.  

 

Yes, it likely will get worse, but there will also be a time when you won't be dealing directly with them any more.  Years after my parents' deaths, the wounds are indeed healed.  There is a remaining sadness occasionally, but that's all.  My side of the family remains largely a mess and the estate will probably never settle because of who is in charge (not this black sheep, naturally), but I live my own life.  I also put away pictures of them and anything else that brought back bad memories.