So this happened and I don't know what to think...

[gardenmom5]

Yes, my mention of DV didn't really belong there.  I was relating my general frustration at being hounded about problems I didn't have - but you are correct; it's not the same thing.

I have my aspie enrolled in a special program through the school district.  they kept pressing to get me to apply for benefits - because that money would go to the school district to pay for the program my son is in.  

[idnib]

These stories are reminding me of when I had to go to the hospital after my home birth. (Post-partum complications, the birth itself was fine.) I was 37 years old, had been married for 6 years and had only 2 children inc. the newborn.  Doogie Howser kept asking me if I was sure I didn't need any help figuring out birth control.  :huh:

[naturegirl]

These stories are reminding me of when I had to go to the hospital after my home birth. (Post-partum complications, the birth itself was fine.) I was 37 years old, had been married for 6 years and had only 2 children inc. the newborn.  Doogie Howser kept asking me if I was sure I didn't need any help figuring out birth control.  :huh:

 

I must have been asked the birth control question a dozen times after I gave birth to my son. It drove me crazy.

[naturegirl]

Regarding the OP, although I would be annoyed and possibly offended if someone said this to me, it's possible there's another side to this as well. My mom and many of her friends are public school teachers. One of her friends told a story about a mom who came up to her and asked about a letter that had been sent home with the kids. The letter encouraged parents to read to their children every day. The mom asked how to do that. As in, she didn't know what it meant to read a book out loud to her kids. You said the librarian is new. If this librarian came from an area where lots of parents weren't reading to their kids, maybe she's just use to constantly pushing it to every parent she meets. 

[MomatHWTK]

I have too many books at home and library books get lost in the mix.  We only ever went to the library to get DVDS.  Books I will buy and keep, DVDs I'd rather borrow. 

 

To the OP, regardless of the librarian's intent and since you want to keep using the library I would education through example.  Do what you do normally with your kids at the library.  Be the good mom that you are and check out the books you want to (or not). Eventually unless the person is truly intent on being biased in some way, she will see who you are. 

[skeeterbug]

I'm disappointed that the other librarian who sees you every week didn't speak up with 'Oh, don't worry, she's one of our regulars!' or something along those lines.

 

You'll have to come back and tell us if you have any further interaction with her!

[Mommyfaithe]

That would have offended me, not because of skin color, but because she is an idiot to presume anything about anybody. Or to admit such a presumption out loud. Bah.

 

I would have been tempted to say, "she's going to read them herself as soon as she gets done with [insert heady tome here]. ;)

Yup, white people don't read to their kids either....

 

She sounds like an inexperienced moron who doesn't know how to keep her mouth shut, not a bigot. Stupid comes in all colors.

[Carrie12345]

Your post is reminding me of what it was like to be a 22-23 year old first time mom in a city where most middle class first time parents are in their mid to late 30s.  At the hospital we were asked repeatedly about getting help to sign up for social services (we didn't need them/qualify) and when I was out with my older son when he was little people not infrequently assumed I was the nanny and, because they mistook my hands on new first time mothering style for being Mary Poppins, tried to hire me away from the parents of my son.  Sometimes it was subtle.  Sometimes it was overt with a dollar figure cited.  It was annoying then but also totally hilarious.

Ayup! I had 3 by 26. While I no longer looked 16, lol, I didn't look quite 26.

Lots of "Are they... yours?"

We moved out of the burbs and more toward the stix when the youngest was a toddler. I didn't get much of that here.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[Mango]

Put a whole stack on reserve! 

 

[gardenmom5]

To me, it would depend. Where is the library? If it is in a larger suburban area, that is pretty diverse, I would not automatically suspect racism.

 

If the library is in a rural area, especially in the south, I would absolutely automatically suspect racism.

So, where the library was located and the librarians look and accent would both be a part of whether or not I suspected racism.

she said she was in a "progressive" area. iow: not the rural south.

[8circles]

she said she was in a "progressive" area. iow: not the rural south.

 

I think some people are taking the suggestion that it might not be or is more likely not to be racism as a denial of racism.  IME the OP's situation is more likely to be social ineptitude than racism, but I fully understand that it COULD be racist & this kind of racism still occurs today.  I just don't personally see it in the OP, but I could be wrong.  We'll never know.

[musicianmom]

Okay, I'm not discounting the possibility of racism here. However, one other thought crossed my mind that I haven't seen mentioned:

 

You told the librarian that dd had a stack of books to get through first. Maybe she assumed you were making dd read them herself and she was suggesting that you read them to her instead. Maybe she sees parents who quit reading aloud once the child is of an age to start learning to read. It's still an incredibly condescending thing to say, no matter what the reason.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[marbel]

Okay, I'm not discounting the possibility of racism here. However, one other thought crossed my mind that I haven't seen mentioned:

 

You told the librarian that dd had a stack of books to get through first. Maybe she assumed you were making dd read them herself and she was suggesting that you read them to her instead. Maybe she sees parents who quit reading aloud once the child is of an age to start learning to read. It's still an incredibly condescending thing to say, no matter what the reason.

 

I wonder this too. 

 

In my experience, most people stop reading to their kids when the kids are able to read on their own. The librarian may have jumped to that conclusion. 

 

I've often had people give me the "you have two heads" look when I say something about reading to my kids, probably starting when they were 8-10 years old.  People are really stunned when they learn I still read to them now.   I think it doesn't occur to most people (general public) that reading aloud is valuable even to a proficient reader (and doesn't replace their own reading). 

[Laurie4b]

I don't think people are complaining about the OP "whining" about it.  She said she didn't know what to think.

 

Certainly I understand that as a white person myself I don't experience bias in the way nonwhite people do.  Totally get that.  But here is where I get stuck:

 

It seems that:

 

- if someone (any race) makes an insensitive, rude, condescending, etc., comment to a white person, the speaker is simply insensitive, rude, etc.

 

- if a white person makes an insensitive, rude, condescending, etc., comment to a nonwhite person, the speaker is probably racist.

 

(USA/North America is assumed.)

 

Why does it seem impossible that a white person can make a stupid comment to, or ask a stupid question of, a nonwhite person without being racist?  No snark, just a real question.  That's the message I'm getting, anyway. 

 

Notice I said "I get stuck."  Not mad, not tired of whining... just stuck.

 

The things that get the discussion "stuck"in  the conversation between people who would otherwise probably agree pretty quickly are: 1) using lenses of different width to analyze the data. Is the lens a wide one which takes into account the whole pattern on the graph or is it a smaller lens that limits the view to only one incident or "dot?"   2) A very human assumption that what I experience is a good measure of what others experience 3) different definitions of racism.

Any individual incident is just a "dot" of data. There could be other explanations for what is going on.  I'll echo what Harriet Vane has already said. For white people who are the recipients of a rude incident, it remains one "dot" of information, an anomaly in the pattern of existence. For people of color, the "dot" fits into a clear "line" on their scatter graph of data because they've had a whole lot of "dots" all in the same direction, so for them it is not an anomaly , but part of a pattern. That's why the OP is asking about the possibility of racism. It would fit on her "line" of data, but notice that she's not automatically going there. And on this thread, we're finding there is another line that that "dot" fits on which is that perhaps library science attracts a certain type of personality who believes it's their job to bring others in line with their superior opinions and which makes other librarians cringe . The OP's "dot" could fit on that line, too.

 

The thing that is hard in these discussions is that white folks haven't experienced the "line" of data, so for them, everything is an individual "dot" and could have other explanations. And they get mad because they feel that they are being blamed and they feel like that is "reverse racism"  because they don't understand or don't believe that that "line" of data exists when someone tells them.  It's taken as an "individual" black/brown vs. white incident and then is countered with other individual incidents.  Those "dots" happen, too.

 

On the internet, it's harder perhaps to believe what someone of color is saying because you don't know the person talking about the "line of dots." But when you know someone IRL who shares their experiences, over and over and over and over, it's a lot easier to grasp : "Oh. Her experience truly is different than mine and since I know that she is a lovely person, of impeccable character, kind-hearted, quick-to-forgive, and a lover of everyone she meets and SHE's telling me about incident after incident after incident and I"ve never experienced those things or maybe only once, I see that there is a difference in her world than mine." But on the internet, it's just words on a screen coming from a person with whom we have a passing virtual relationship.

 

It is confusing to white people because they are using the same type of analysis they would use if a white person asked them about the same incident so they can feel unjustly accused of something.   But that kind of analysis is hurtful to people of color because it doesn't take into account their "line" of data and can be unintentionally or even intentionally, discounting of  that experience or the person of color's interpretation that x behavior was indicative of racism.

 

Additionally, there are different definitions of racism being used. Most white people use racism to mean overt and conscious bigotry, hatred, and/or discrimination towards someone because of their color. Most people of color would describe most of the racism they experience as based on ( quite possibly unconscious) assumptions people make about them because of their color and that nonetheless affect them.  Additionally, since white people tend to use the first definition of racism, it rightly applies both ways. There are "haters" in any ethnicity. However, many academics and people of color are often using racism to refer to the power differential between the dominant culture and other cultures and the term  encompasses "hate" but also goes beyond it. 

 

If the first, second, and third impulse would be to listen and entertain the notion that it really might be different for other people than it is for me, it would go a long way. 

 

The same applies to any majority.  How many moms of kids with invisible special needs such as autism are judged for their parenting by those who are in the majority of parents whose kids are typically developing? If one is in the majority, it is very human to assume that everyone else's experience is like yours because one finds so much agreement with one's experience and opinions from others in the majority.

 

The world is  kinder and problems get solved more quickly when people listen carefully, open to the possibility that another's experience is truly categorically different from their own .

 

 

 

[marbel]

<snip>

 

To answer your question:

 

Yes, it's possible for white folks to be rude simply because they are rude, clueless, or stupid in general.

 

However, a person of color can readily recognize patterns of behavior. It is true that they are often judged by the color of their skin (often subconsciously but also often purposely). Because it happens regularly and routinely, it is reasonable for them to attribute certain words or behaviors to that cause.

 

For example, when I was a teenager I was quite independent. My family was unhappy and dysfunctional, and help for basic tasks was not forthcoming. From the time I was sixteen years old, I took myself to all my appointments--all doctors (gp, eye, dentist, etc.), any job or academic interviews, etc. I also always took my car (a beater bought with my own money) to the mechanic on my own. (It was a beater, so I had to bring it in a lot.)

 

Unfortunately, a lot of the adults I had to deal with treated me badly because of my age. My mechanic was horribly rude to me many times. He never treated my parents that way, and never treated the other adults in his shop that way (at least not when I was there). With me, though, he was impatient and really rude.

 

I had the same experience with doctors and their staffs--not ALL, mind you, but so many that it was obvious they had a low opinion of a teen with a state medical card who came in alone.

 

<snip>

 

In the same way, people of color experience a consistent pattern of behavior. They are able to recognize that behavior because they have experienced it so many times, as have their friends and family. If they misjudge a few for racism rather than simply garden-variety rudeness, they have a legitimate context for that mistake. However, I trust the experience and the instincts of those who live with the effects of racism.

 

 

Sorry for all the seemingly random snipping.  I think I kept the most relevant (to me, anyway) parts.

 

First, I'm sorry about your experience as a teen.  Seems like you overcame it all quite well!

 

And, I get your point about patterns.  I can see that.  I certainly don't want to beat up on the OP and say "no, it's not racism!"   She knows better than I and anyone else here, obviously.  But it seems that if even she is unsure, it might be more useful to attribute it to something other than racism, particularly since she has no previous experience with the individual.

 

To the OP - don't feel uncomfortable in your own public library!  Go and do your own thing. In fact, I think in your position I might try to go more often and get more books. Don't let your kids get the impression that the library is not a good place to be anymore.   If you have any more negative encounters with that particular person, discuss with the library director.  Prepare yourself mentally to respond reasonably and calmly to any further comments.  No snark - I just don't find that that never helps and if she has a stereotype in mind, that may further cement it. 

 

And please do update if you have any more encounters, positive or negative.

[gardenmom5]

if the librarian is new, she may have recently moved from the south.  (or not.)

 

My mother was always at the library.  I was allowed to check out books - but my mother only read books to herself.  I struggled with reading (vision - tracking, LD, .. ), but she still didn't read to me.  (or encourage me to actually read.)  I'm sure there are other mothers like her, even today.  (there are probably even more like her today.)   - iow: being in the library means squat about reading.  especially today with dvd's, computers, etc.

 

I think she would have said the same thing to anyone in the same circumstance.  (ie: we're not checking books out today)

[Word Nerd]

She may have been stereotyping you, but none of us knows the librarian's motive other than that she thought she was being helpful. She may give the same spiel to every parent who comes in; statistically, many parents don't read aloud to their kids. In her overzealous efforts to encourage parents to read to their kids, she's likely going to preach to the choir at times and see parents as statistics until she knows them on a more personal level. It's condescending, but I would try not to take offense.

 

I took my kids to a children's fair when DD2 was a preschooler. A woman at one booth where DD wanted to do an activity gave me some information and a mini lecture about the importance of early literacy skills. DD was already reading by that point, so I wanted to roll my eyes and was a bit offended that the woman assumed I didn't know that already. But I smiled and agreed that it was very important for parents to help kids learn pre-literacy skills. I also told her DD was already reading and shared a couple of things I did with her at home. She said that was wonderful and offered me some different information that was more appropriate for her level. She was passionate about her area of expertise and did give me some good tips after I shared more about DD. I think she simply started from the lowest common denominator to make sure as many people got the message as possible.

[Word Nerd]

You were extremely gracious, and hopefully, the librarian learned an invaluable lesson not to make assumptions about people, and to approach every one with an open mind.

If the OP didn't talk to her or say anything to dispel the librarian's wrong assumptions, I doubt that the librarian learned any such thing. The OP was under no obligation to do that, but I think talking to the woman would do far more to educate her and make her rethink her approach than making a complaint with a director, etc.

[SKL]

As I and most people have said, it could very well be racism at play here.

 

However, what I'm hearing in some of these posts is that if I'm white, I have no choice but to say "yes, it must be racism."  Any other response is hurtful to people of color, because if a person of color asks "do you think it might be" what I should hear is "I know from experience this has to be racism and please don't belittle my experience by disagreeing, because that would make you a racist as well."

 

Which is another way of saying that it remains very difficult to have an honest discussion on this topic.

[readwithem]

Oops I started to quote your last paragraph - just wanted to say I love it!!!

 

 

[Harriet Vane]

As I and most people have said, it could very well be racism at play here.

 

However, what I'm hearing in some of these posts is that if I'm white, I have no choice but to say "yes, it must be racism."  Any other response is hurtful to people of color, because if a person of color asks "do you think it might be" what I should hear is "I know from experience this has to be racism and please don't belittle my experience by disagreeing, because that would make you a racist as well."

 

Which is another way of saying that it remains very difficult to have an honest discussion on this topic.

 

This does present legitimate difficulties. One becomes scared to speak for fear of either rendering further hurt  or being "scolded."

 

It is a good thing, though, to tread carefully to prevent further hurt.

 

In a discussion about race, it's a good idea to say something like:

 

"As a white woman, I haven't had to experience racism, so I don't fully understand what it's like."

 

It's also a good idea to say you're sorry the (racist) incident occurred, NOT because you personally caused that pain, but because you are sorry someone feels hurt and marginalized. Say it with the same compassion that you extend when you say you're sorry when someone was sick, or injured, or experienced a loss. Saying sorry often is NOT an admission of guilt; it can be just an acknowledgment of another person's pain.

 

Then you can offer the other suggestions for why the incident might have occurred. In this thread there has been discussion of general bad manners and of librarian personality types. It's important to also say, again, "Though the librarian might have been racist as well." This acknowledges all the possibilities without dismissing any one.

 

The bottom line is to acknowledge the possibility of racism, to acknowledge your own cluelessness about what that's like, and to express sympathy for the pain that has been suffered.

[Harriet Vane]

The things that get the discussion "stuck"in  the conversation between people who would otherwise probably agree pretty quickly are: 1) using lenses of different width to analyze the data. Is the lens a wide one which takes into account the whole pattern on the graph or is it a smaller lens that limits the view to only one incident or "dot?"   2) A very human assumption that what I experience is a good measure of what others experience 3) different definitions of racism.

Any individual incident is just a "dot" of data. There could be other explanations for what is going on.  I'll echo what Harriet Vane has already said. For white people who are the recipients of a rude incident, it remains one "dot" of information, an anomaly in the pattern of existence. For people of color, the "dot" fits into a clear "line" on their scatter graph of data because they've had a whole lot of "dots" all in the same direction, so for them it is not an anomaly , but part of a pattern. That's why the OP is asking about the possibility of racism. It would fit on her "line" of data, but notice that she's not automatically going there. And on this thread, we're finding there is another line that that "dot" fits on which is that perhaps library science attracts a certain type of personality who believes it's their job to bring others in line with their superior opinions and which makes other librarians cringe . The OP's "dot" could fit on that line, too.

 

The thing that is hard in these discussions is that white folks haven't experienced the "line" of data, so for them, everything is an individual "dot" and could have other explanations. And they get mad because they feel that they are being blamed and they feel like that is "reverse racism"  because they don't understand or don't believe that that "line" of data exists when someone tells them.  It's taken as an "individual" black/brown vs. white incident and then is countered with other individual incidents.  Those "dots" happen, too.

 

On the internet, it's harder perhaps to believe what someone of color is saying because you don't know the person talking about the "line of dots." But when you know someone IRL who shares their experiences, over and over and over and over, it's a lot easier to grasp : "Oh. Her experience truly is different than mine and since I know that she is a lovely person, of impeccable character, kind-hearted, quick-to-forgive, and a lover of everyone she meets and SHE's telling me about incident after incident after incident and I"ve never experienced those things or maybe only once, I see that there is a difference in her world than mine." But on the internet, it's just words on a screen coming from a person with whom we have a passing virtual relationship.

 

It is confusing to white people because they are using the same type of analysis they would use if a white person asked them about the same incident so they can feel unjustly accused of something.   But that kind of analysis is hurtful to people of color because it doesn't take into account their "line" of data and can be unintentionally or even intentionally, discounting of  that experience or the person of color's interpretation that x behavior was indicative of racism.

 

Additionally, there are different definitions of racism being used. Most white people use racism to mean overt and conscious bigotry, hatred, and/or discrimination towards someone because of their color. Most people of color would describe most of the racism they experience as based on ( quite possibly unconscious) assumptions people make about them because of their color and that nonetheless affect them.  Additionally, since white people tend to use the first definition of racism, it rightly applies both ways. There are "haters" in any ethnicity. However, many academics and people of color are often using racism to refer to the power differential between the dominant culture and other cultures and the term doesn't encompasses "hate" but goes beyond it. 

 

If the first, second, and third impulse would be to listen and entertain the notion that it really might be different for other people than it is for me, it would go a long way. 

 

The same applies to any majority.  How many moms of kids with invisible special needs such as autism are judged for their parenting by those who are in the majority of parents whose kids are typically developing? If one is in the majority, it is very human to assume that everyone else's experience is like yours because one finds so much agreement with one's experience and opinions from others in the majority.

 

The world is  kinder and problems get solved more quickly when people listen carefully, open to the possibility that another's experience is truly categorically different from their own .

 

:iagree:  Well said.

 

[Halftime Hope]

OP here...

 

Wow, I picked the wrong day to not check WTM first thing! Still making my way through the responses....

 

In skimming I've seen a couple of comments about "jumping to conclusions" and I want to say I really haven't assumed racism or any other motivation. I'm mulling it over and that's why I asked for other people's opinions and experiences. "I don't know what to think" is right there in the title. Right now it sounds more like she has bad social skills...never blame on racism what can be blamed on idiocy?

 

Honestly if she were someone I would never see again I would shrug and forget about it. Because of the possibility of seeing her every week I am trying to figure it out. I love love love this library and I want to deal with my feelings, either by deciding to just move on, talk to the director, etc. I don't want to feel weird every week in a place I love to go and take my kids.

 

Thanks to people who've responded so far. It sounds like there are a lot of librarians who are difficult to deal with. My MIL is a public librarian so I've heard some stories from the other point of view too.

 

I recently applied for a library position, and during the conversation I had with the library services manager, he noted that there are many people that think that just because 1) they like to read, they can work at the library--as though a love of books would equate to great customer service skills, or because 2) they love to have things organized, they can work at the library--as though a love of neatness and organization would predispose one to develop great people skills.  He said that in the library community, Group 2 are called cataloguers.  ; )  What he looked for in employees was customer service first, then the MLS or MLIS second.  In his opinion, libraries are still staffed with many folks in Groups 1 and 2, and it's hard for them to grow into being customer service purveyors FIRST.

[SKL]

This does present legitimate difficulties. One becomes scared to speak for fear of either rendering further hurt  or being "scolded."

 

It is a good thing, though, to tread carefully to prevent further hurt.

 

In a discussion about race, it's a good idea to say something like:

 

"As a white woman, I haven't had to experience racism, so I don't fully understand what it's like."

 

It's also a good idea to say you're sorry the (racist) incident occurred, NOT because you personally caused that pain, but because you are sorry someone feels hurt and marginalized. Say it with the same compassion that you extend when you say you're sorry when someone was sick, or injured, or experienced a loss. Saying sorry often is NOT an admission of guilt; it can be just an acknowledgment of another person's pain.

 

Then you can offer the other suggestions for why the incident might have occurred. In this thread there has been discussion of general bad manners and of librarian personality types. It's important to also say, again, "Though the librarian might have been racist as well." This acknowledges all the possibilities without dismissing any one.

 

The bottom line is to acknowledge the possibility of racism, to acknowledge your own cluelessness about what that's like, and to express sympathy for the pain that has been suffered.

 

On the other hand, wouldn't my experience as a "white" woman put me in a position to possibly explain why another "white" woman might have done xyz in a transaction with a person of color?

 

There have been times when I have been completely blindsided by an accusation of racism by someone who didn't know anything about me except for my skin color.  I don't deny that racism exists, but I honestly find it disturbing that many people jump to an assumption of racism as soon as they notice a difference in skin tones.  That's racist in my opinion.  I am not saying the OP did this at all, but I am saying that there's a lot of encouragement for such a mindset.  It isn't likely to improve race relations in my opinion.

[Harriet Vane]

On the other hand, wouldn't my experience as a "white" woman put me in a position to possibly explain why another "white" woman might have done xyz in a transaction with a person of color?

 

There have been times when I have been completely blindsided by an accusation of racism by someone who didn't know anything about me except for my skin color.  I don't deny that racism exists, but I honestly find it disturbing that many people jump to an assumption of racism as soon as they notice a difference in skin tones.  That's racist in my opinion.  I am not saying the OP did this at all, but I am saying that there's a lot of encouragement for such a mindset.  It isn't likely to improve race relations in my opinion.

 

You could say the same thing about my earlier post in which I discussed the difficulties I had as a teenager with adult doctors, nurses, or mechanics. In one sense, another adult could explain why adults might choose to be rude in those situations. There were people in my life at that time who felt I was reading into things, including the adult who accompanied me to the eye doctor's office. He (and several of my other adult friends) were predisposed to think the best of other adults, and to assign those other adults the same honorable motives.

 

If you are a white woman who is genuinely not racist, then you would ascribe more honorable motives to other white people because that is what your personal experience has been. Your experience, however, does not negate the legitimate experiences that people of color have had as well.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that most often (not always--there are racists in every color) the accusations of racism are based upon a long pattern of repeated behavior. People of color as a group are not irrational any more than white folks, and they are not speaking or behaving out a vacuum. All too often, they speak out of long experience with many incidents of bad behavior based on racism. If you as a white woman have been unjustly accused, then the blame lies squarely with other whites who have perpetuated this hurt upon people of color, NOT on the victims of that hurt.

[Barb_]

The thing to keep in mind is that most often (not always--there are racists in every color) the accusations of racism are based upon a long pattern of repeated behavior. People of color as a group are not irrational any more than white folks, and they are not speaking or behaving out a vacuum. All too often, they speak out of long experience with many incidents of bad behavior based on racism. If you as a white woman have been unjustly accused, then the blame lies squarely with other whites who have perpetuated this hurt upon people of color, NOT on the victims of that hurt.

Past victimhood doesn't automatically guarantee someone ipunity when falsly accusing someone innocent. Surely this isn't what you are suggesting? Yes, a pattern of interaction can make someone sensitive to pick-your-own-ism. I say this as someone married to a Hispanic guy in Arizona, of all places, who has dealt with the rude comments directed toward large families and the patronizing comments and assumptions directed toward us when we were in our 20's with four kids (and looked considerably younger than our ages then). It can be hard to take tired comments at face value, but in the end I'm responsible for my own reactions. If I react in an overly sensitive manner and accuse someone of rudeness or prejudice (and I'm only responding to you right now, Harriet, not the OP) where none was intended, then that hurt rests squarely on my own shoulders. The fact that I've been hurt in the past gives me no latitude in this situation. I've prejudged another. I'm guilty of prejudice.

[Harriet Vane]

Past victimhood doesn't automatically guarantee someone ipunity when falsly accusing someone innocent. Surely this isn't what you are suggesting? Yes, a pattern of interaction can make someone sensitive to pick-your-own-ism. I say this as someone married to a Hispanic guy in Arizona, of all places, who has dealt with the rude comments directed toward large families and the patronizing comments and assumptions directed toward us when we were in our 20's with four kids (and looked considerably younger than our ages then). It can be hard to take tired comments at face value, but in the end I'm responsible for my own reactions. If I react in an overly sensitive manner and accuse someone of rudeness or prejudice (and I'm only responding to you right now, Harriet, not the OP) where none was intended, then that hurt rests squarely on my own shoulders. The fact that I've been hurt in the past gives me no latitude in this situation. I've prejudged another. I'm guilty of prejudice.

 

This is a little harsh.

 

Yes, we are responsible for our own actions and reactions.

 

But, no latitude? That's not really fair. Where there has been a lifetime of painful experience, certain conclusions about human behavior are completely rational. And frankly, those conclusions about human behavior ARE accurate a larger percentage of the time than otherwise.

 

I see the larger responsibility resting on those who have more power and who do not suffer the hurts of systemic and personal racism. We are responsible to show kindness where there has been hurt.

[Barb_]

This is a little harsh.

 

Yes, we are responsible for our own actions and reactions.

 

But, no latitude? That's not really fair. Where there has been a lifetime of painful experience, certain conclusions about human behavior are completely rational. And frankly, those conclusions about human behavior ARE accurate a larger percentage of the time than otherwise.

 

I see the larger responsibility resting on those who have more power and who do not suffer the hurts of systemic and personal racism. We are responsible to show kindness where there has been hurt.

I think we're talking past one another. An earlier poster said she has been accused of racism where none was intended. Another poster mentioned she was asked if she were using food stamps because the EBT system was down, and a customer a few lines over caused a ruckus because she assumed it was a racist question. You say we are responsible for our actions, but that directly contradicts your earlier statement. It seemed like you were saying systemic racism is the true cause of not just the misunderstanding (which, let's face it, is understandable), but also any bad behavior on the part of the victim.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Harriet Vane and Laurie4b,

I totally agree with you. You are so eloquent, compassionate, and encouraging! I feel I understand myself and others more from reading your posts. Thank you!

[Harriet Vane]

I think we're talking past one another. An earlier poster said she has been accused of racism where none was intended. Another poster mentioned she was asked if she were using food stamps because the EBT system was down, and a customer a few lines over caused a ruckus because she assumed it was a racist question. You say we are responsible for our actions, but that directly contradicts your earlier statement. It seemed like you were saying systemic racism is the true cause of not just the misunderstanding (which, let's face it, is understandable), but also any bad behavior on the part of the victim.

 

I have tried to both help folks understand how racism plays a part (whether we understand/acknowledge that or not) while also acknowledging the feelings of those falsely accused of racism. I would argue, though, that false accusations of racism by people of color against white folks are far less common than real instances of racism.

[JadeOrchidSong]

I am Asian, not white.

I was once called aloud by a black girl in a middle school class I subbed for "racist" in the U. S. I reflected right away why she said that and realized that I answered a white boy student's question but not hers even though she raised her hand first. I examined myself and felt that I was truly guilty of it because subconsciously I probably paid more attention to my white students. She as one who had experienced racism as a pattern in her life recognized it right away. That one time was a wake-up call for me. It happened in 2003, 2 1/2 years after I immigrated to the U. S. from Asia. I now consciously treat everyone with the same respect and kindness as they all deserve. I thank that girl for calling it out for me and helped me to be who I am today.

 

By the way, a good number of Chinese people are guilty of racism. In China, White people are generally treated with much more kindness and respect and have better work opportunities compared to people of a different color. It is the reality, admit it or not.

[Barb_]

I have tried to both help folks understand how racism plays a part (whether we understand/acknowledge that or not) while also acknowledging the feelings of those falsely accused of racism. I would argue, though, that false accusations of racism by people of color against white folks are far less common than real instances of racism.

I do agree that real instances are more common. But I disagree that you were acknowledging the feelings of the falsely accused and that's what I was responding to. Maybe you mispoke, or i misunderstood your intent. We could all stand to extend a little grace to each other. We *should* try to understand points of view outside of our own. Yet I can't help thinking you feel all white people should feel guilty as race for what some rude, ignorant, low life types still spew.

 

Going back to the OP, she was wondering herself if the comments were racially motivated. That seemed to invite people to say, "nah, I've had experiences with librarians like that myself. It seems more like a librarian issue than a race issue." Maybe most of the responses would have been different if the OP had said, "wow, I had the most racist experience today..." I don't believe most of us would have jumped in to discount what she already believed was a racially motivated comment. But that wasn't the case. I don't believe apologizing for her hurt and acknowledging the possibility of racism (as you suggested upthread) was really warranted In This Thread. It's possible to be so apologetic for the white race or for the black experience that one comes off as patronizing. I've seen it. No, I think the conversation was going just as the OP intended and really, isn't that the point?

[Barb_]

I am Asian, not white.

I was once called aloud by a black girl in a middle school class I subbed for "racist" in the U. S. I reflected right away why she said that and realized that I answered a white boy student's question but not hers even though she raised her hand first. I examined myself and felt that I was truly guilty of it because subconsciously I probably paid more attention to my white students. She as one who had experienced racism as a pattern in her life recognized it right away. That one time was a wake-up call for me. It happened in 2003, 2 1/2 years after I immigrated to the U. S. from Asia. I now consciously treat everyone with the same respect and kindness as they all deserve. I thank that girl for calling it out for me and helped me to be who I am today.

 

By the way, a good number of Chinese people are guilty of racism. In China, White people are generally treated with much more kindness and respect and have better work opportunities compared to people of a different color. It is the reality, admit it or not.

 

She called you out in the middle of class? If so, that's disrespectful and out of line. The fact that you examined your conscience as a result is irrelevant. What if you truly didn't see her hand go up first? What if that boy seemed insecure and you got the sense he needed to share what he was thinking right then? What if she had already answered a question. She could have just as easily called you out for being sexist, but I'm guessing in that case she would have been wrong. Again, we all need to extend grace. She could have approached you in private and asked whether your calling on the boy was racially motivated rather than flat out accuse you in front of your classroom. Your chagrin doesn't excuse her ill manners and you didn't do her any favors by allowing her to control the situation that way.

[Laurie4b]

JadeOrchidSong, I think what you've done is what we all need to do: reflect on our own actions and see whether there is unconscious racism there and correct it when we find it. 

 

I've made plenty of mistakes myself . I remember feeling really strong feelings of empathy/anger over the injustice my AA friend put up with regularly. One incident she related was when she was the director of a program and was in a room with a white assistant and someone who didn't know them came looking for the director, and said my friend's name to the white woman, assuming she would be the one in charge. I hurt for her. (She is very gracious and wasn't really fussing about it, just sharing an example of many. I would have a chip on my shoulder if I were her. I learn a lot about being continually forgiving from her. )  Several months later, I went into an upscale toy store and wanted to order something and asked the AA woman at the register to speak to the owner/manager. She was the owner/manager. I didn't do anything outwardly wrong, but I realized I was picturing the owner as white and didn't see her as the potential owner. I had done just what I was hurt about on my friend's behalf. 

 

I have learned a lot from listening to friends of other ethnicities and their stories. I've learned that often what I thought was the "right" way to do something (such as the right way to lead) is sometimes just the right white way and there are whole other paradigms for things such as exercising leadership, expressing feelings, etc.

[gardenmom5]

  Several months later, I went into an upscale toy store and wanted to order something and asked the AA woman at the register to speak to the owner/manager. She was the owner/manager. 

and here I wouldn't expect the owner/manager to be manning the check-out line. . . . (I used to patronize a small upscale toystore - the owner was around, and I learned who she was on sight, but she rarely manned the register.)

 

but if it is very new, and still trying to increase income, maybe the owner would.

[Barb_]

JadeOrchidSong, I think what you've done is what we all need to do: reflect on our own actions and see whether there is unconscious racism there and correct it when we find it.

 

I've made plenty of mistakes myself . I remember feeling really strong feelings of empathy/anger over the injustice my AA friend put up with regularly. One incident she related was when she was the director of a program and was in a room with a white assistant and someone who didn't know them came looking for the director, and said my friend's name to the white woman, assuming she would be the one in charge. I hurt for her. (She is very gracious and wasn't really fussing about it, just sharing an example of many. I would have a chip on my shoulder if I were her. I learn a lot about being continually forgiving from her. ) Several months later, I went into an upscale toy store and wanted to order something and asked the AA woman at the register to speak to the owner/manager. She was the owner/manager. I didn't do anything outwardly wrong, but I realized I was picturing the owner as white and didn't see her as the potential owner. I had done just what I was hurt about on my friend's behalf.

 

I have learned a lot from listening to friends of other ethnicities and their stories. I've learned that often what I thought was the "right" way to do something (such as the right way to lead) is sometimes just the right white way and there are whole other paradigms for things such as exercising leadership, expressing feelings, etc.

Laurie, I really do like this post and I do understand what you're saying. I am we'll aware that a group of young black men isn't statistically more likely to do me harm than a group of young white men. But I grew up in an area of south Florida within a couple of miles of a particularly violent black neighborhood. At least that's what we were told :) I was warned never to drive directly through the neighborhood. To be fair, South Florida was and remains one of the car-jacking/home invasion capitals of the US. Crime felt a lot more random when I lived there. Anyway, rabbit trail, sorry. The point is, patterns of thought do insinuate themselves even when we know better as adults.

 

Race relations are more strained in some areas of the country than they are in others. Philly was a particularly bad place. The races hated each other. There was plenty of blame to go around there. South Florida was also particularly fragmented. When I was growing up, black folks really had nothing to do with white people. They tended to hold themselves aggressively separate and react frostily to any sort of friendly overture, which has probably contributed to my opinions on this thread. Here in Chicago where we spend a few months out of the year, race relations seem a little more mellow. Not perfect, obviously, but better than other places. When I smile, I usually get a smile in return. And as I mentioned before, Hispanics in Arizona are the blacks of the South. We're all a product of our experiences. We should all take a lesson from both your friend and from you as well :)

[JadeOrchidSong]

She called you out in the middle of class? If so, that's disrespectful and out of line. The fact that you examined your conscience as a result is irrelevant. What if you truly didn't see her hand go up first? What if that boy seemed insecure and you got the sense he needed to share what he was thinking right then? What if she had already answered a question. She could have just as easily called you out for being sexist, but I'm guessing in that case she would have been wrong. Again, we all need to extend grace. She could have approached you in private and asked whether your calling on the boy was racially motivated rather than flat out accuse you in front of your classroom. Your chagrin doesn't excuse her ill manners and you didn't do her any favors by allowing her to control the situation that way.

First of all, I agree with you that she was disrespectful.

Secondly, I want to answer all you "what ifs". This is what happened. I DID see her hand go up first; that was why I felt guilty. She HAD not had a chance to talk yet. I was subconsciously racist because in China we did feel better about ourselves when we had white friends and other people would envy us when we had white friends and less so when we had black friends.

For a person that had suffered from racism, she was quick to recognize it, and being a teenager, she probably had less tact or patience than we adults to wait until we had a few quiet minutes after class to clarify things. There was barely time to go to the bathroom between shuffling to different classrooms.

I, in no way, condone her rude behavior. I was able to teach the class well despite that disruption. She only called out "racist" and did not continue with any more disruption. What I should have done was to find time after class to clarify things with her instead, but I didn't. I was there only one day as a sub. I was an inexperienced teacher in the context of a diverse student population even though I taught graduate school (exclusively Chinese) for 11 years before immigrating to the U. S.

 

So what I want to say is my focus is on what I have learned and how my subconscious racism affected a black person in a very negative way. Both she and I did something wrong, me not being fair in whose questions to answer first, her being rude in class. But I understood why she did what she did (which by the way was not to be excused) when I recognized my unfairness. I cannot really control her reaction to racist behaviors of other people, but I can control how I correct my wrong and I have learned to try to treat people with equal respect and fairness.

[wingedradical]

Your story reminds me of when my oldest child (who is probably quite a lot older than you now) was a baby and we went to a free Well Baby Clinic for their check up. Now, I am a lily white redhead, but I was only 18 with a baby.

 

Using a voice like some people use on children, the nurse kept asking me things like, "What do you feed him?" I was nursing, actually, but this was 1970 and that wasn't common (in fact, an amazed doctor at the hospital, when I explained that I was nursing said, "Oh, wonderful! It's great to know someone knows what they're for!") But, anyway, besides nursing, at about 3 months, I started giving him other things, too, because it was 1970 and I thought I had to." So, I answered, "Uh, breast milk, baby food, and juice." 

 

"Wonderful, sweetie," she says with sugary condescension. "But tell me a little more, won't you?  What kinds of baby food?" 

 

"Well, you know, vegetable, fruit, oatmeal, chicken."

 

I didn't dare tell her I was grinding and pureeing it myself.

 

"Oh, good for you! You should be so proud" she says, as if I'm a 3-yr-old who just managed to count to 10.

 

"And tell me, sweetie, you don't let him go for long in a wet or nasty diaper, do you?"

 

Argh! I was so offended. I felt like she thought I was some kind of idiot just because I was young and without money (I was using the well baby clinic and not a pediatrician). And I stayed offended until I went to nursing school and learned that many people, white, black, brown, poor, middle class, rich, etc. are really clueless about things you wouldn't expect them to be. And although I always tried to be less condescending, I did learn to ask tactful questions and/or give extra info to everyone because their children's health was my job and I never knew for sure whether they knew what I thought everyone should know.

 

Maybe your librarian was this lady's daughter? LOL

 

 

[Barb_]

First of all, I agree with you that she was disrespectful.

Secondly, I want to answer all you "what ifs". This is what happened. I DID see her hand go up first; that was why I felt guilty. She HAD not had a chance to talk yet. I was subconsciously racist because in China we did feel better about ourselves when we had white friends and other people would envy us when we had white friends and less so when we had black friends.

For a person that had suffered from racism, she was quick to recognize it, and being a teenager, she probably had less tact or patience than we adults to wait until we had a few quiet minutes after class to clarify things. There was barely time to go to the bathroom between shuffling to different classrooms.

I, in no way, condone her rude behavior. I was able to teach the class well despite that disruption. She only called out "racist" and did not continue with any more disruption. What I should have done was to find time after class to clarify things with her instead, but I didn't. I was there only one day as a sub. I was an inexperienced teacher in the context of a diverse student population even though I taught graduate school (exclusively Chinese) for 11 years before immigrating to the U. S.

 

So what I want to say is my focus is on what I have learned and how my subconscious racism affected a black person in a very negative way. Both she and I did something wrong, me not being fair in whose questions to answer first, her being rude in class. But I understood why she did what she did (which by the way was not to be excused) when I recognized my unfairness. I cannot really control her reaction to racist behaviors of other people, but I can control how I correct my wrong and I have learned to try to treat people with equal respect and fairness.

Ok. I understand what you're saying. I was taking your post as a response to mine when maybe you didn't have my post in mind? It's hard to tell without a quote.

[JadeOrchidSong]

 

Ok. I understand what you're saying. I was taking your post as a response to mine when maybe you didn't have my post in mind? It's hard to tell without a quote.[/quot

 

I was responding to your post #138 :-)

[gardenmom5]

Your story reminds me of when my oldest child (who is probably quite a lot older than you now) was a baby and we went to a free Well Baby Clinic for their check up. Now, I am a lily white redhead, but I was only 18 with a baby.

 

Using a voice like some people use on children, the nurse kept asking me things like, "What do you feed him?" I was nursing, actually, but this was 1970 and that wasn't common (in fact, an amazed doctor at the hospital, when I explained that I was nursing said, "Oh, wonderful! It's great to know someone knows what they're for!") But, anyway, besides nursing, at about 3 months, I started giving him other things, too, because it was 1970 and I thought I had to." So, I answered, "Uh, breast milk, baby food, and juice." 

 

"Wonderful, sweetie," she says with sugary condescension. "But tell me a little more, won't you?  What kinds of baby food?" 

 

"Well, you know, vegetable, fruit, oatmeal, chicken."

 

I didn't dare tell her I was grinding and pureeing it myself.

 

"Oh, good for you! You should be so proud" she says, as if I'm a 3-yr-old who just managed to count to 10.

 

"And tell me, sweetie, you don't let him go for long in a wet or nasty diaper, do you?"

 

Argh! I was so offended. I felt like she thought I was some kind of idiot just because I was young and without money (I was using the well baby clinic and not a pediatrician). And I stayed offended until I went to nursing school and learned that many people, white, black, brown, poor, middle class, rich, etc. are really clueless about things you wouldn't expect them to be. And although I always tried to be less condescending, I did learn to ask tactful questions and/or give extra info to everyone because their children's health was my job and I never knew for sure whether they knew what I thought everyone should know.

 

Maybe your librarian was this lady's daughter? LOL

well, you know, in the 50's, science improved over mother nature in how to feed babies. :eyeroll: I think I had this nurse's dd - with my fourth child.

[TXMary2]

One Caucasian cashier in her 50s at Cub grocery store asked me at the checkout, "Do you have food stamps?"

 

By the way, fellow WTMers, I am Asian, and I have never used food stamps.

 

Please help me decide if this is racism or not.

 

Another question to my fellow WTMers: Have you been asked this same question?

 

I am white and have never used WIC or food stamps.  I do however buy 5 gallons of milk a week for my kids who suck it down like it isn't $3.25 a gallon.  I get asked by white cashiers about 3-4 times a year if I have WIC.  No, I don't.  After that the cashier of the moment almost always says something like, "Gee, that is a lot of milk." 

[idnib]

Going back to the OP, she was wondering herself if the comments were racially motivated. That seemed to invite people to say, "nah, I've had experiences with librarians like that myself. It seems more like a librarian issue than a race issue." Maybe most of the responses would have been different if the OP had said, "wow, I had the most racist experience today..." I don't believe most of us would have jumped in to discount what she already believed was a racially motivated comment. But that wasn't the case. I don't believe apologizing for her hurt and acknowledging the possibility of racism (as you suggested upthread) was really warranted In This Thread. It's possible to be so apologetic for the white race or for the black experience that one comes off as patronizing. I've seen it. No, I think the conversation was going just as the OP intended and really, isn't that the point?

 

 

OP here...

 

This is pretty much correct. I really wanted to know what people thought because it seemed a gray area and because "society" tells me I should experience much more discrimination than I seem to, as a brown Muslim woman. So sometimes I really do wonder if I'm just clueless and I don't see it directed at me, or it's less than other places because I live in a very progressive area, or both. My personal experience has been that people want to show how progressive and well-informed they are ("I'm well-informed and know all Muslims are not terrorists") they are by bending over backwards to be very kind and welcoming.

 

In fact, I can remember the last time I felt racism directed personally at me. It was in 2009 in Alberta and I had not seen someone's homemade "No Parking" sign because it had folded. The HOA president had out it up to save a space for some workers. I didn't see it, and while I was unloading my kids from the car, the HOA president came over and started yelling at me and asking me why I couldn't read English yet. (I was born and educated in the US, btw.) Before that, I remember some racist incidents following 9/11 and before that, someone left some racist material in my mailbox during the Gulf War.

 

So basically what I'm saying is that I only seem to notice things that are really overt, and for me those have been few and far between. Everyone will have a different experience, and this has been mine.

 

I have appreciated people's empathy and understanding on this thread whether or not they think the library incident was racist. I really don't know if it was. I also appreciate people saying they are sorry this happened to me, but I don't see any reason for anyone to apologize for this woman's behavior, whatever her motivation. Well, maybe if a librarian popped in and apologized on her behalf... :D

[Harriet Vane]

I do agree that real instances are more common. But I disagree that you were acknowledging the feelings of the falsely accused and that's what I was responding to. Maybe you mispoke, or i misunderstood your intent. We could all stand to extend a little grace to each other. We *should* try to understand points of view outside of our own. Yet I can't help thinking you feel all white people should feel guilty as race for what some rude, ignorant, low life types still spew.

 

Going back to the OP, she was wondering herself if the comments were racially motivated. That seemed to invite people to say, "nah, I've had experiences with librarians like that myself. It seems more like a librarian issue than a race issue." Maybe most of the responses would have been different if the OP had said, "wow, I had the most racist experience today..." I don't believe most of us would have jumped in to discount what she already believed was a racially motivated comment. But that wasn't the case. I don't believe apologizing for her hurt and acknowledging the possibility of racism (as you suggested upthread) was really warranted In This Thread. It's possible to be so apologetic for the white race or for the black experience that one comes off as patronizing. I've seen it. No, I think the conversation was going just as the OP intended and really, isn't that the point?

 

Am I personally responsible for wrongs other white people have perpetrated on people of color? NO. Absolutely not. That is why I have tried (imperfectly) in this thread to acknowledge the feelings of those who have been wrongfully accused of racism.

 

Do I personally benefit from the results of systemic racism? Yes. It's not my fault, personally, but the fact is that my life in this country is easier because I am white. That is regrettable. Saying sorry that this is the reality in this country is not the same as admitting personal guilt.

 

When someone tells me they have had a bad day, I might respond with, "I'm sorry." I say that even if I am not the cause of the bad day; I say it as an expression of sympathy, that it is really too bad that the person has had a bad day. Similarly, if one of my kids gets hurt skateboarding or some such, I might just say, "I'm sorry. That must really hurt." If I didn't personally inflict that hurt, then saying sorry on my part is just an expression that conveys regret that anything negative happened.

 

I have personally viewed patronizing behavior, and I have been the recipient of patronizing behavior. That is not what I am advocating.

 

The post in which I suggested apologizing for racist incidents was in specific response to a poster's query about how to handle situations where race may or may not be an issue. I gave the guidelines that I did as one way to acknowledge (1) that as a white person I do not understand what people of color in America have to live with in terms of racism, so it would be harder for me to recognize racism; (2) to offer sympathy for whatever negative event has occurred--to say sorry that it happened, not necessarily for me to take personal responsibility; (3) to then, in the context that has been established by your admission that you may not understand the racism nuances and that you feel badly that something unhappy/negative has happened, then to offer other thoughts on why the event may have occurred. This pattern allows for the possibility of racism as a factor; it also allows for other possibilities.

 

[SKL]

The thing to keep in mind is that most often (not always--there are racists in every color) the accusations of racism are based upon a long pattern of repeated behavior. People of color as a group are not irrational any more than white folks, and they are not speaking or behaving out a vacuum. All too often, they speak out of long experience with many incidents of bad behavior based on racism. If you as a white woman have been unjustly accused, then the blame lies squarely with other whites who have perpetuated this hurt upon people of color, NOT on the victims of that hurt.

 

What if I said exactly the same thing about experiences with certain people of color?  I could provide a very long list of examples of people of color engaging in "bad behavior."  For example, I know someone who was raped by a black guy, my mom had a black guy attempt to rape her, and multiple friends have been held up at gunpoint by black people.  Pretty much every white person could list examples, so does that mean we have a right to make accusations based purely on skin color?

 

And as to your last sentence above, I notice that white racism is always the fault of whites, and nonwhite racism against whites is also the fault of whites.  Assigning zero accountability to anyone whose skin is not white does not improve race relations IMO.

 

[clarkacademy]

I have tried to both help folks understand how racism plays a part (whether we understand/acknowledge that or not) while also acknowledging the feelings of those falsely accused of racism. I would argue, though, that false accusations of racism by people of color against white folks are far less common than real instances of racism.

I think you are mistaken. Since moving to the area where I am this is all I see. Constantly. A father showing up at he highschool raising H3LL over a free lunch app sent home, hello every kid gets one. No he raised the roof, security had to take him down. A mother attacking a school bus driver because she wouldn't play rap music on the bus. Ummm, sorry no music is to be played with swearing. There were two women at the child support office when I moved here. One colored one white. The white secretary called the white woman first and the other totally flipped out. She had been there first. No matter that the certain case worker she was working with still had a client. The director or whatever came out at that time. The colored director. She was loud as well. Told the woman sit it on down and when her case worker was ready she would be called and not to ever try to get special treatment in her office again because she was black. I decided at that point we could work child support on our own and never went to through the courts. This is every day here. At Walmart the other day my mother my old frail, on oxygen in a wheel chair mother was approached at the checkout line. A young woman point blank said my mother should let her cut her in line and if she didn't it was because she was a racists. I have so many more it is stupid. Racism may be alive and well but it isn't just white people.