Interesting Pope

[LibraryLover]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2013/09/pope_francis_interview_forget_homosexuality_and_birth_control_he_s_a_flaming.html

 

 

ETA:  I like him.

[Murphy101]

Sigh.

 

No, he isn't a flaming liberal.

 

Read his actual words from the actual source.

 

He hasn't done anything in particular to make me like him, tho he seems like a nice enough down to earth fellow.

[Moxie]

Seriously poor reporting.

[LibraryLover]

I read it as tongue-in-cheek. A Pope can't really be a flaming liberal.

[AMJ]

Didn't finish the article -- found the language so slanted it's off-putting.

 

However, Pope Francis has, at least, sparked my curiosity (which is something recent Popes had driven away).  I'm curious not only about what he's saying now and what he's going to say, but how the Catholic church will react (not just the populace, but as a structured organization).

 

 

[QuirkyKapers]

Sigh.

 

No, he isn't a flaming liberal.

 

Read his actual words from the actual source.

 

He hasn't done anything in particular to make me like him, tho he seems like a nice enough down to earth fellow.

 

Where can you find the actual source?  I hate that things get taken out of context.

 

[ElizabethB]

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/489048-the-pope-is-deep-gerunds-generativity-good-to-great-literature/

[LibraryLover]

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/489048-the-pope-is-deep-gerunds-generativity-good-to-great-literature/

 

Thanks! I hadn't seen that thread.  Off to read. :)

[Mom in High Heels]

Atheist (or maybe agnostic) here, and I have to say that I really like Francis.  He seems like a decent, down to earth guy, who has the interest of the people at heart, instead of the Church.

[Moxie]

Atheist (or maybe agnostic) here, and I have to say that I really like Francis. He seems like a decent, down to earth guy, who has the interest of the people at heart, instead of the Church.

The people are the Church.

[Pod's mum]

Atheist (or maybe agnostic) here, and I have to say that I really like Francis.  He seems like a decent, down to earth guy, who has the interest of the people at heart, instead of the Church.

 

 

The two interests are not oppositional. 

 

I was just about to say the same.

The church IS her people.

(Big families can need some structure to thrive. Or any family really.)

[AlmiraGulch]

How long til this thread gets locked?  Anyone? 

 

Ok, I'll start.

 

The church should be its people.  All too often, it is not.  It is about power and control and show.   Regularly, in fact, in my opinion.  I think what MomInHighHeels is saying is that this Pope seems to be more concerned with the well being of ALL people (not just Catholic people), and in using his power and authority to promote love and tolerance and service, rather than in maintaining or promoting the absolute power of the Catholic church, for the purpose of holding power.

 

If I've correctly interpreted what she said, then I agree with her.

 

(For what it's worth, I was a practicing Catholic for the vast majority of my life, too).

 

 

[LibraryLover]

How long til this thread gets locked?  Anyone? 

 

 

That's not why I asked. I find this Pope fascinating.

[redsquirrel]

He is saying nice things, and he is voicing many of the same frustrations I have head from my Catholic friends.  Well, the Catholics I know who still go to church, which is now exactly two people. I know lots of Catholics who left long ago.

 

But, nothing has really changed. Birth control is still a sin, even though every Catholic I have ever, known except one, uses it. They aren't exactly welcoming gay and lesbian couples into the church.

 

It's going to be an interesting couple of years while he is Pope. I am more interested in seeing what happens after he goes.

 

edited to add: I didn't follow the link. From the comments here I knew the interview being referenced. I read bit of that in the NYT and other sources. I didn't find any of the other sources to be inflammatory or call him a raging liberal or anything like that. What I read didn't have much commentary at all, just reported on the interview and gave some quotes etc.

[Dandelion]

I'm not Catholic.  So I can't speak to the doctrinal issues in the interview.

 

That article is seriously slanted.  If you just ignore the commentary of the reporter and focus on the words of the Pope, there are other ways to interpret what he is saying.  Personally, I find Pope Francis refreshing.  I might not agree with all of his positions (not that it matters, since I'm not Catholic), but I like that he's not afraid to challenge the status quo a little.

[Moxie]

How long til this thread gets locked? Anyone?

 

Ok, I'll start.

 

The church should be its people. All too often, it is not. It is about power and control and show. Regularly, in fact, in my opinion. I think what MomInHighHeels is saying is that this Pope seems to be more concerned with the well being of ALL people (not just Catholic people), and in using his power and authority to promote love and tolerance and service, rather than in maintaining or promoting the absolute power of the Catholic church, for the purpose of holding power.

 

If I've correctly interpreted what she said, then I agree with her.

 

(For what it's worth, I was a practicing Catholic for the vast majority of my life, too).

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say "power, control and show". Please elaborate.

[AlmiraGulch]

That's not why I asked. I find this Pope fascinating.

 

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that that's why you asked.  Not at all.  I've just seen so many of these things go south lately.  It seems we've forgotten how to have discussions like this without them spiraling into something ugly.  I hope not this time.

[AlmiraGulch]

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say "power, control and show". Please elaborate.

 

Ok, but only because you asked.

 

Many people feel that churches in general exist primarily for the purpose of controlling the masses.  The Catholic church led that charge, in the opinion of many, beginning with Peter as the first Pope.  As often happens with powerful organizations, the power becomes the end goal, and the organizational leaders become corrupt. Instead of their purpose being to protect or fairly govern or shepherd or whatever the organizational mission was (in the case of the Catholic church, to lead people to salvation through Christ), it devloves into acting primarily for the purpose of maintaining the position, the authority, the control, and the wealth of the leadership of the church.  

 

So, while the church really is (or, should be) its people, often, sadly, the Church becomes its own entity, operating for its own selfish, ungodly purposes (to maintain power and control over the people, and to grow the wealth and physical trappings of the leadership).

 

P.S.  I am not Catholic bashing.  I promise.  Like I said, I was one for most of my life, and most of my extended family (and some of the immediate) still are.  Nuns and everything.  I was just trying to answer the question that was asked, and this is my real, honest answer.

[Joker]

We're just beginning RCIA to become Catholic and we all really love Pope Francis. We are also fortunate to be in parish with a priest who loves Pope Francis. Our homily yesterday was just great and the Pope's interview was discussed.

 

ETA: All that said, I did not like the article linked in the OP at all and agree with those who say it is very slanted.

[Parrothead]

If this article is what is passing for journalism today we are in sad sorry shape.

[Aelwydd]

Pope Francis sounds like an interesting person, and somewhat more compassionate than his predecessor to me. However, his diplomatic manner of handling certain issues, such as the question of homosexual relationships, should not in any way occlude the fact of the matter. He is a traditionalist. And while he is presented as a kind of radical departure from Benedict and John Paul II, living outside the papal palace, etc., the effect is more theatrical than practical.

 

He may commiserate that the RCC is "obsessed" with abortion, gay marriage, and birth control, but at the end of the day he endorses the Magisterium's position on these issues. Every one of them.

[AlmiraGulch]

Pope Francis sounds like an interesting person, and somewhat more compassionate than his predecessor to me. However, his diplomatic manner of handling certain issues, such as the question of homosexual relationships, should not in any way occlude the fact of the matter. He is a traditionalist. And while he is presented as a kind of radical departure from Benedict and John Paul II, living outside the papal palace, etc., the effect is more theatrical than practical.

 

He may commiserate that the RCC is "obsessed" with abortion, gay marriage, and birth control, but at the end of the day he endorses the Magisterium's position on these issues. Every one of them.

 

True story.  I don't think the question is whether or not the Pope is overturning the doctrine of the church.  No one expects that.  The Catechism of the Catholic Church is very clear about those things you stated (abortion, gay marriage, birth control, etc) and the Pope, of course, believes those things too.  

 

It doesn't take away from the fact this this Pope seems to be trying to get away from the Church's obsession with these things, which are not the heart and soul of the church, despite all the attention.  They are part of it, but not the "meat".  It appears as if this Pope is trying to get people to focus on kindness and compassion and service and humility rather than those things that are political hot buttons.  

 

I also don't agree with you that his living outside the papal police, for example, is theatrical.  I think Pope Francis is doing that because he seems to believe there is something wrong with living in such riches as the leader of a church that should be "of the people and for the people."  I could be wrong.  I don't know what's in his heart or mind, but that's the true impression I get.

 

It seems to me that some people (and I don't mean you, specifically, but many others that I know) are so caught up in making sure that people remember that "the Church is still the Church! Don't be fooled by this guy!" that they are discounting any good he may actually do.  

[Mom in High Heels]

The two interests are not oppositional. 

 

 

The people are the Church.

 

I meant people in general (as in all people), and not the interests of the Church as an institution.  I'm not putting that very well, I know, but I've been sick and I can't think of a better way to put it right now. Having been to the Vatican, I'm kind of irritated that the Catholic Church is so broke.  There are IIRC 1 million, priceless sculptures in the Vatican museum (according to the tour guide), thousands and thousands of pieces of gold and jewels and paintings beyond measure.  If they sold just a few pieces, the Church would have money for ages.  The Vatican museum itself rakes in a small fortune in just admission fees.  I understand that it takes a lot of money to run the Church, museum, and all the parts of what goes on, but the sheer amount of wealth (not to mention the books, manuscripts and who knows what else is there that is not on display), is kind of sickening.  I know it's a museum, but if another museum was struggling (as the Church is), they'd sell something to keep going.  My IL's chuch is barely hanging on because attendance and tithing is down and the priest isn't certain it will stay open much longer.  It's a gorgeous church (JB and I were married there), and used to be full every Sunday (according to FIL, who grew up in that church), and had a school.  The school closed years and years ago, and the buildings now sit, most derelict, because they can't afford to keep them in good condition.  While I'm not a believer myself, I know millions are, and it gives them great comfort and it makes me sad to see these beautiful churches fade away due to lack of funding.

[Joker]

 

 

It doesn't take away from the fact this this Pope seems to be trying to get away from the Church's obsession with these things, which are not the heart and soul of the church, despite all the attention.  They are part of it, but not the "meat".  It appears as if this Pope is trying to get people to focus on kindness and compassion and service and humility rather than those things that are political hot buttons.  

 

 

 

This is exactly what I've taken from the interview and it was what our priest discussed yesterday. The almost obsession I have seen from some regarding abortion is what kept us away from even trying the Catholic church for so long. So, I'm really glad this discussion is taking place. I'm also happy that our priest feels the same.

[sassenach]

I read the original interview, which is nothing like the article linked.  I would say that he is moving away from religiosity, which is good, but I can't tell yet if he's moving away from orthodoxy, which would be bad.  Frankly, he sounds a lot like an evangelical.

[Trish]

Pope Francis sounds like an interesting person, and somewhat more compassionate than his predecessor to me. However, his diplomatic manner of handling certain issues, such as the question of homosexual relationships, should not in any way occlude the fact of the matter. He is a traditionalist. And while he is presented as a kind of radical departure from Benedict and John Paul II, living outside the papal palace, etc., the effect is more theatrical than practical.

 

He may commiserate that the RCC is "obsessed" with abortion, gay marriage, and birth control, but at the end of the day he endorses the Magisterium's position on these issues. Every one of them.

For a church that is supposedly obsessed with these issues, I NEVER hear homilies on them at Sunday Mass. I think the perception is there because the media is obsessed with the church's stance on these issues, and keeps asking for opinions on it, along with querying as to when the church will change its mind. Parishes in general are oriented toward sacraments, spirituality and helping the poor. I doubt the media will drop its obsession any time soon.

[Murphy101]

True story.  I don't think the question is whether or not the Pope is overturning the doctrine of the church.  No one expects that.  The Catechism of the Catholic Church is very clear about those things you stated (abortion, gay marriage, birth control, etc) and the Pope, of course, believes those things too.  

 

It doesn't take away from the fact this this Pope seems to be trying to get away from the Church's obsession with these things, which are not the heart and soul of the church, despite all the attention.  They are part of it, but not the "meat".  It appears as if this Pope is trying to get people to focus on kindness and compassion and service and humility rather than those things that are political hot buttons.  

Humph. Social justice is always a political hot button issue.

 

I also don't agree with you that his living outside the papal police, for example, is theatrical.  I think Pope Francis is doing that because he seems to believe there is something wrong with living in such riches as the leader of a church that should be "of the people and for the people."  I could be wrong.  I don't know what's in his heart or mind, but that's the true impression I get.

The church is not "of the people for the people". That's in theory the USA. The RCC is not a popular democracy. Thank Heavens.

 

The papal apartment is not an opulent area. It's old and has a few select antique items (and thus lies their worth), but if you actually read his words, he says he didn't like how it made it difficult for people to visit. Because it is rather the end of a funnel. (Which makes since security wise if you think how often people in history tried to kill previous popes. They naturally made access to him by a group of angry people difficult.) Francis says he very much craves feeling more a part if the community, so the lack of openness to groups of visitors bothered him. In how he interacts and craves social activities in the community, he reminds me very very much of JP2.

 

I see nothing anymore untoward rich and lavish about the pope in the Vatican palace as leader then the president in the White House. *shrug*

 

Well actually I do see the Prez as worse bc even the pope allows the common people to visit the Vatican. :/

 

It seems to me that some people (and I don't mean you, specifically, but many others that I know) are so caught up in making sure that people remember that "the Church is still the Church! Don't be fooled by this guy!" that they are discounting any good he may actually do.

 

 

 

I'm not discounting anything because he hasn't done anything yet. So far, he talks nice, which I have limited appreciation for, and isn't saying anything unorthodox, so I'm just listening and waiting. I just don't understand the gung-ho presumptions.

 

But I didn't think he previous popes lacked any compassion, kindness or humbleness either. *shrug*

 

For a church that is supposedly obsessed with these issues, I NEVER hear homilies on them at Sunday Mass. I think the perception is there because the media is obsessed with the church's stance on these issues, and keeps asking for opinions on it, along with querying as to when the church will change its mind. Parishes in general are oriented toward sacraments, spirituality and helping the poor. I doubt the media will drop its obsession any time soon.

This. Yep. Nodding emphatically. THIS.

[chiguirre]

 While I'm not a believer myself, I know millions are, and it gives them great comfort and it makes me sad to see these beautiful churches fade away due to lack of funding.

I wanted to put this in perspective. Dh and the kids belong to a huge parish that just built a new church because it was literally overflowing during regular Sunday masses. The parish has more than 6000 families on its rolls. The problem with parishes in older areas losing population is sad, but it's due to people moving around and the need to have larger parishes to use limited numbers of priests effectively.

[chiguirre]

He may commiserate that the RCC is "obsessed" with abortion, gay marriage, and birth control, but at the end of the day he endorses the Magisterium's position on these issues. Every one of them.

I think his experience of having his butt handed to him by Cristina Fernandez (the president of Argentina) on the gay marriage issue probably informs his wish to get away from the conservative red meat topics and back to a more universal message.

[Tiramisu]

I also don't agree with you that his living outside the papal police, for example, is theatrical.  I think Pope Francis is doing that because he seems to believe there is something wrong with living in such riches as the leader of a church that should be "of the people and for the people."  I could be wrong.  I don't know what's in his heart or mind, but that's the true impression I get.

 

Pope Francis directly spoke about this and said his choosing to live outside the Vatican initially was misunderstood. He also specifically denied that the Papal Apartments were luxurious. 

 

The papal apartment is not an opulent area. It's old and has a few select antique items (and thus lies their worth), but if you actually read his words, he says he didn't like how it made it difficult for people to visit. Because it is rather the end of a funnel. (Which makes since security wise if you think how often people in history tried to kill previous popes. They naturally made access to him by a group of angry people difficult.) Francis says he very much craves feeling more a part if the community, so the lack of openness to groups of visitors bothered him. In how he interacts and craves social activities in the community, he reminds me very very much of JP2.

 

Right. He said he is an extrovert and needs to be around people. The way he expressed it made me feel what the election may have been for him, having to leave his home and his friends, and that it would make the transition easier to be in a familiar place with lots of people around.

[Tiramisu]

I think his experience of having his butt handed to him by Cristina Fernandez (the president of Argentina) on the gay marriage issue probably informs his wish to get away from the conservative red meat topics and back to a more universal message.

 

Pope Francis is all about a universal message, but not for the reasons you give. He is not denying any position of the Church and has stated repeatedly he is a child of the Church and believes all of his teachings. But he is emphasizing the Gospel, the true universal message. He is reminding all of us to keep our eyes on God, to know, love, and serve him in this world. We can fight about this or that but nothing will change unless we, first, as individuals love him with our whole heart and soul and love our neighbor as our self for the love of Him.

[LibraryLover]

Really interesting and polite conversation. Thank you. :) 

[aggieamy]

Pope Francis sounds like an interesting person, and somewhat more compassionate than his predecessor to me. However, his diplomatic manner of handling certain issues, such as the question of homosexual relationships, should not in any way occlude the fact of the matter. He is a traditionalist. And while he is presented as a kind of radical departure from Benedict and John Paul II, living outside the papal palace, etc., the effect is more theatrical than practical.

 

He may commiserate that the RCC is "obsessed" with abortion, gay marriage, and birth control, but at the end of the day he endorses the Magisterium's position on these issues. Every one of them.

 

I think this is something people don't get.  He is every bit as traditional as Pope Benedict but I don't think the media seems to have picked up on that yet.

 

On a completely related note I think that our modern journalism is such a pathetic joke that I don't rely on it at all.  In the last week I've seen things at the world level, national level, and even our local city council so misrepresented that I don't know how anyone takes it seriously. 

[AlmiraGulch]

Humph. Social justice is always a political hot button issue.

 I'm puzzled by your "humph".

 

The church is not "of the people for the people". That's in theory the USA. The RCC is not a popular democracy. Thank Heavens.

Clearly.  Thus, the quotes.  I think I made my point quite clearly by using the well-known nomenclature in my analogy.

 

 

I started to respond to the rest, but it's really not worth it. In truth, I couldn't care too much less about a leader of a church I know intimately and, as a result, chose to leave.  

 

Your "humph" and <<shrug>> are dismissive, so.....I will remain dismissed.  

[Tiramisu]

I think this is something people don't get.  He is every bit as traditional as Pope Benedict but I don't think the media seems to have picked up on that yet.

 

On a completely related note I think that our modern journalism is such a pathetic joke that I don't rely on it at all.  In the last week I've seen things at the world level, national level, and even our local city council so misrepresented that I don't know how anyone takes it seriously. 

 

Right.

 

We are comparing a German to a Latin American of Italian descent. Really, of course they're going to seem different even if their message is exactly the same. 

 

The media is so superficial.

 

Matching:

 

1. German                         A. Warm, friendly, open                     

 

2. Latin American              B. Stern

[nmoira]

He may commiserate that the RCC is "obsessed" with abortion, gay marriage, and birth control, but at the end of the day he endorses the Magisterium's position on these issues. Every one of them.

 

And the Leadership Conference of Women Religious remains under censure and is stripped of independent authority for undermining "issues of crucial importance to the life of Church and society, such as the Church’s Biblical view of family life and human sexuality;" i.e. not working hard enough to fight gay marriage, birth control, and abortion, and focusing on poverty issues instead. 

 

This is an year-old news article, but it was a big local story at the time.

http://www.kgw.com/news/national/156270145.html

 

Here's a link to the Doctrinal Assessment:

http://www.usccb.org/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=55544

 

And Francis' reaffirmation:

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/18/pope_francis_reaffirms_vatican_censure_of_radical_feminist_nuns/

[LibraryLover]

 

 

 

And Francis' reaffirmation:

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/18/pope_francis_reaffirms_vatican_censure_of_radical_feminist_nuns/

 

I saw that.

 

I guess it all moves very slowly.

[Amy in NH]

First Pope I've ever liked!

 

ETA: I didn't read any of the links to this thread.  But I've heard/read a bunch about him through NPR/Time/mainstream news.

[Violet Crown]

Just as a boring technical matter, Pope Francis is not a traditionalist, as that term is generally understood among Catholics. (Wikipedia has a pretty good article on Traditionalist Catholics.)

[Spy Car]

Just as a boring technical matter, Pope Francis is not a traditionalist, as that term is generally understood among Catholics. (Wikipedia has a pretty good article on Traditionalist Catholics.)

Should we assume that the so-called "Traditionalist" Catholics still consider the papal throne empty?

 

Bill

[Violet Crown]

No, very few of them, numerically speaking, are sedevacantists. I'm certainly not.

 

You might take a look at that Wikipedia article. It seems pretty accurate.

[Catwoman]

I like Pope Francis. He seems approachable and nice, and he appears to genuinely care about people.