Duggar article-20 year old daughter courting

[Murphy101]

Heather, you're living a grand adventure right now. Do you think that one of the unmarried, adult Duggar girls would have been allowed to apply for a teaching job at your school? I think not.

While everyone is focusing on the girls and higher education, it's important to note NONE of the Duggars have degrees. Which isn't all that uncommon regardless of religion.

 

I think they would let the girls do that. They have let them travel without parents before, to Chigaco for a music seminar and to tour the city for example.

 

And to be honest, I think many American parents would be nervous about sending their teen/20ish daughter to Malaysia to work.

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather, you're living a grand adventure right now. Do you think that one of the unmarried, adult Duggar girls would have been allowed to apply for a teaching job at your school? I think not.

I didn't do it as a young, unmarried woman, either. I moved here at age 39, married, with lots of life experience behind me.

[fairfarmhand]

Why does it only have to be considered normal if you are letting your teenagers (and young adults) run loose and get in trouble?  I guess that is better, sure.. I guess I get it now.  But I really don't.

False dichotomy. Many, many dating teens are not wild, free, and easy.

...and just in time for the premiere of their new season!  How convenient and not contrived at all!

 

Honestly, it does make me sad for the Duggar kids.  Only a fool would be unaware of the "right" things to put in those texts in order to please Jim Bob.  So to begin, I don't know how she's supposed to get to know the "real" person.  If the family believes in some sort of "courtship" system, then fine.  I have lots of friends who do, as well (but they don't take the no-privacy practices to quite that extreme).  But I can't imagine what it would be like to have mama run off to her publicist and announce to the universe the content of my texts with my boyfriend.  Or to have mama announce to People magazine, of all things, the amount of contact my boyfriend and I have decided will be appropriate for us.  Such that not only do my dates involve a family companion, but basically every member of the general public becomes a "chaperon" because they're all watching to see whether so much as my pinkie finger crosses the artificial line we decided on.  

 

I can't imagine having my important decisions and vulnerable matters of young love (young like? young sermon-recommendation texting?) be turned into a tourist attraction.

 

I (as an introvert) could never speak of my hopes and dreams, deep failings, and emotions if I knew that a third party would be reading/hearing all that I said. This would keep all relationships on a surface level. MY dh is much the same. So my choices would be 1. go against my personality and blab everything that I am to everyone (not going to happen) 2. Marry someone who I really did not know very well 3. Stick it out with Jim Bob for the rest of my life.

 

I'd probably pick option 2 with a very sick feeling in my stomach.

 

I don't know much about the family. I've read one of their books and seen a few interviews. Both parents seem pretty extroverted. I wonder how they deal with the introverts in their lives.  They seem unable to acknowledge that different personality types need different things and it's not "wrong" to be different.

Joanne was not referring to the choices made happily by independent thinking women, but to the restrictive choices imposed upon the adult daughters by their parents.

 

You seem to be missing the distinction between a marriage chosen freely (even if unhappy) and a marriage one enters into under coercion.

 

I come from a culture where arranged marriages are the norm. Yes, sure they work. There are even many young couples today in my country who choose arranged marriages freely and happily. Many of my friends have and they are truly happy in their marriages.

 

But focusing on arranged marriages that work just hides the ugly flip side to a system that *expects* adult children allow their parents to make life decisions for them. Let's face it that the real motive behind such a system is the control of one's sexual habits and the unhealthy obsession on sexual purity. This is the kind of system that then looks to control women's choices, clothing, education, career and most importantly women's bodies. This is the kind of system that expects women to conform to traditional gender roles and discourages divorce even in the face of spousal abuse. So really, many of the arranged marriages "that work" are deeply unhappy marriages.

 

I, for one, will always consider a system that encourages freedom and the ability to make independent, even if flawed, choices vastly superior to one in which adults are kept under "loving captivity". I will always prefer a lifestyle that promotes open and honest discussion, and where all ideas are fearlessly examined rather than the one where thoughts are controlled, and beliefs are carefully monitored so as to ensure mindless compliance and conformance.

 

I don't want my kids to choose a mate based upon whether they are meeting mom and dad's approval. After all, they are the ones who have to live with the choice.

 

The problem that I have seen in many courtship situations (not all but many) is that it elevates mom and dad's opinion to ridiculous extremes. Parents are expected to have the final say for a very important decision for their ADULT children. Courtship is not only about accountability.  Often it is accompanied by this expectation that the parents of the couple always know best. That ignores the point that parents are flawed people too. Parents sometimes project their own expectations onto their children and don't always know the kids as well as they think. My dad believed in a semi-courtship model. He would have never picked my dh for me. I ran off and got married and, Hey we are happily married 16 years later.

[itsheresomewhere]

My reply will not popular but I hope my kids never date anyone who's parent put such restrictions on dating/texting/etc.  And if someone of adult age had a parent/older sibling come along on the date, I would wonder why they had such little respect and trust for the adult.  If any male ask me if they have permission to date my DD they will get a no.  She is the one who you would ask not me.  I hope by the time my kids are of dating age, I have raised them to love themselves to make choices they are happy with and to be true to themselves.  

 

I do find it funny that the Duggars don't allow regular  tv but put themselves all over it.  

[fairfarmhand]

My reply will not popular but I hope my kids never date anyone who's parent put such restrictions on dating/texting/etc.  And if someone of adult age had a parent/older sibling come along on the date, I would wonder why they had such little respect and trust for the adult.  If any male ask me if they have permission to date my DD they will get a no.  She is the one who you would ask not me.  I hope by the time my kids are of dating age, I have raised them to love themselves to make choices they are happy with and to be true to themselves.  

 

I do find it funny that the Duggars don't allow regular  tv but put themselves all over it.  

 

I agree with you. I understand these restrictions for minors dating, but not for adults. I wouldn't want my kids to marry into a family where the parents are pushing their way into the kids' relationships.

 

I find the emphasis on "never be alone together. Never text without approval. Never kiss, hold hands, etc." an unhealthy obsession with s*x. LOTS AND LOTS of people hang out/talk/text without any s*exual overtones at all. I spoke to my dh's buddy on the phone yesterday about cows for about 20 minutes. I answered his questions and asked about his calves. Any S*exual tension there? NOPE. Just 2 adults having a conversation. I will expect my 20 year old dd (when they get there) to be able to do the same.

 

I'd understand it more if a dating couple goes to someone else and says, "We're being tempted. Can you help us stay accountable." But often it's not the dating couple initiating this, it's the parents. "You're too young and hormonal to know what's best for yourself." Courting often keeps people from developing self-control because they are so dependent on parental control.

[Murphy101]

I don't dispute that they are smart girls. I do dispute that they have full access to higher education. Clearly they do not. Though, it doesn't seem the boys have either to be perfectly fair.

 

Tho to be perfectly fair, neither does the vast majority of the American population. Get real. No one but the very rich or the very exceptional students have anything resembling "full access to higher education" in the states. The rest? They are pretty much screwed by a siphon of test scores, location, demographic and finance to whatever options remain to them. And it often doesn't end in a degree for most of them. Tho it does usually end in a ton of crushing debt either way.

 

I've questioned their actual ability to chose from a wide range of interests. I think it's sad that, in the context of their lives, they are building their adult roles on gestation, childbirth and child-rearing. I think it speaks to a sick system.

I don't think it is sad or strange. I think they spent the majority of their formative years around pregnant women and young children and that has made them more interested in those things. They don't believe in birth control (I don't either for that matter) and that tends to heighten many women's interest in women's health, especially in areas of pregnancy and parenting.

 

I don't think it is any more sick than the child of an enginneer or a doctor low and behold and not all that surprisingly deciding to go into a related field.

 

Sure they can choose to do something else, but many don't.

 

I think it's sad that in the context of supposed feminism and women's rights, we still view gestating, childbirth, and child- rearing in such a derogatory and suspect manner.

[Moxie]

I didn't do it as a young, unmarried woman, either. I moved here at age 39, married, with lots of life experience behind me.

Ok. My sister joined the Peace Corp after college. Young and unmarried, she went to Bangladesh to teach English. Do you think that any of the Duggar girls would be allowed to do that? My parents weren't excited but they let her live her own life.

 

Do you think if one of the girls wanted to go to college in California and study business, that they would even be allowed to apply?

[Moxie]

Tho to be perfectly fair, neither does the vast majority of the American population. Get real. No one but the very rich or the very exceptional students have anything resembling "full access to higher education" in the states. The rest? They are pretty much screwed by a siphon of test scores, location, demographic and finance to whatever options remain to them. And it often doesn't end in a degree for most of them. Tho it does usually end in a ton of crushing debt either way.

 

I don't think it is sad or strange. I think they spent the majority of their formative years around pregnant women and young children and that has made them more interested in those things. They don't believe in birth control (I don't either for that matter) and that tends to heighten many women's interest in women's health, especially in areas of pregnancy and parenting.

 

I don't think it is any more sick than the child of an enginneer or a doctor low and behold and not all that surprisingly deciding to go into a related field.

 

Sure they can choose to do something else, but many don't.

 

I think it's sad that in the context of supposed feminism and women's rights, we still view gestating, childbirth, and child- rearing in such a derogatory and suspect manner.

I don't get that anyone is denigrating midwifery. It is the lack of choices that people take issue with. If one of these girls wanted to move out, got to college in a different state, study something besides midwifery, they would not be allowed.

[Murphy101]

Ok. My sister joined the Peace Corp after college. Young and unmarried, she went to Bangladesh to teach English. Do you think that any of the Duggar girls would be allowed to do that? My parents weren't excited but they let her live her own life.

 

Do you think if one of the girls wanted to go to college in California and study business, that they would even be allowed to apply?

Given the current rep of the peace corp for permitting women to be raped and the problem of sex trafficing, I'd not be able to stop my kid from going, because they are free people, but I sure would not encourage it and I bet money many a parent would feel that way about their young unmarried (thus relying on strangers to have their back so to speak) daughter doing something similiar. They would likely want lots of assurance that the program was well vetted, secure, and so forth and even then, I bet they'd be very nervous about it. I bet many would be nervous even if they were married.

[mommaduck]

I don't see why it has to be either/or.  Allowing young adults to choose their own suitor is not equivalent to allowing teens to run wild sleeping around.

 

Courting is fine, but I feel they are a bit over the top with it.  My kids will be able to date when they are a bit older, they get to choose their own partner BUT I have made a point of letting them know the person has to be able to fit in with the family.  Dating like courting is in the effort to find you spouse, and there is no point being with someone who doesn't fit with the family, can't get along with them etc.  I have also informed them that the person must pass my scrutiny.  Now I will not be one forbidding anyone from seeing someone else, especially once they are adults.  But someone who is not deemed worthy enough (and my criteria are few-basically treat my kid with respect, be honest, hard working and respectful)  I will make it well known they are not.  I can either be the really awesome mil one day or the one from hell, it all depends on what sort of a person you are and how you treat my kid and my grandkids.  There is a boy that likes my dd14, he knows he has to hang out with the whole family and pass muster.  He is trying to get back in my good books after he stole from me (nothing major but it is an unacceptable character flaw-it was a mini science kit for the littles to make bouncy balls, and french fries I had bought for dinner and sat on the table).  If he was a young adult as opposed to a young teen I wouldn't even be giving him the chance to get off my sh*t list. 

 

So all of that to say yes I think it is good to have parents involved to a point.  I think it is great to withhold physical relations until marriage.  But I think it is a bit much for a parent to deny a suitor completely for their adult children.  These are girls in their 20s not teens, it's time to back off a bit.

 

 

I'm so with you on all of this...especially the bolded, but all of it.

[momacacia]

Her hair is so trendy! Who knew a Duggar was allowed to do that?!

 

We followed the 'courtship model' when DH and I married and hope our children choose something similar. However, by the time they are 20 and/or prepared for marriage, I hope they are mature enough to be trusted to text each other privately. After all, how could we trust them on a honeymoon if they're not (heaven knows what they might do there! Lol;-)

[Joanne]

Her hair is so trendy! Who knew a Duggar was allowed to do that?!

 

We followed the 'courtship model' when DH and I married and hope our children choose something similar. However, by the time they are 20 and/or prepared for marriage, I hope they are mature enough to be trusted to text each other privately. After all, how could we trust them on a honeymoon if they're not (heaven knows what they might do there! Lol;-)

 

 

Thank you. This was a great example of a developmentally appropriate way to parent near adults and adults. As parents, we make choices on a continuum. I totally believe that there can be healthy choices that differ from my own more liberal ones.

 

But I believe that the quiverful/Gothard subculture, represented in public form by the Duggars, are on the extreme of the continuum and have elements of unhealth in their parenting choices.

[FaithManor]

My concern for the Duggar children is from my personal knowledge of the ATI/Gothard philosophy and teachings. I have experience with this and cannot say more about it here because there are probably followers of Bill Gothard's tennants on the board and what I would have to say would be considered very offensive.

 

Suffice it to say that since the Duggars are self-admitting followers of ATI tenets, I have the same concerns Joanne as expressed plus a whole lot more.

 

[Joanne]

My concern for the Duggar children is from my personal knowledge of the ATI/Gothard philosophy and teachings. I have experience with this and cannot say more about it here because there are probably followers of Bill Gothard's tennants on the board and what I would have to say would be considered very offensive.

 

Suffice it to say that since the Duggars are self-admitting followers of ATI tenets, I have the same concerns Joanne as expressed plus a whole lot more.

 

 

I know I am getting called out in this thread for my audacity, but I have muted and censored my response for this thread.

[Carrie12345]

I personally admire this sort of parenting.

 

Our children will have text conversations all monitored through our phones. Cellphones won't be allowed until our children earn their drivers license. Also I won't allow my children to go on dates without myself or my husband. This might seem overly-attached or weird, *but I know what dating is like* & I wish my parents monitored me from the very beginning!

No, you know what YOUR dating was like.

*My dating was wonderful and had a very positive impact on my lovely little life.

If I were to claim that's representative of all dating, that'd be stupid.

[Guest]

What bothered me is that Jim Bob said there have been other boys who wanted to court his other daughters but none 'made the cut' so he said no. Last year there was a lot of speculation that Jana had a potential suitor but wasn't allowed to pursue it.

If the girls want to court, great.  But what bothers me is the idea that the suitor has to be approved by Dad. Everyone wants parental blessing when getting married...but can't they at least choose their own suitor? I know the girls agree to this but to me it's sad that they want their father to have so much control over that part of their lives. 

 

Sitting back now, and hoping Unsinkable will share her beer nuts with me. 

 

Just a different perspective, but my parents advised me not to date my ex (who turned out to be an abusive, cheating, terrible spouse).  I would have been saved a lot of heartache had I listened.  I can see the value in parental approval.

[FaithManor]

Given the current rep of the peace corp for permitting women to be raped and the problem of sex trafficing, I'd not be able to stop my kid from going, because they are free people, but I sure would not encourage it and I bet money many a parent would feel that way about their young unmarried (thus relying on strangers to have their back so to speak) daughter doing something similiar. They would likely want lots of assurance that the program was well vetted, secure, and so forth and even then, I bet they'd be very nervous about it. I bet many would be nervous even if they were married.

Well, maybe I'm a bad mom. My dd was working as an EMT and going to paramedic school in one of the most violent cities in our nation by the time she was 20. She has been known to wear a bullet proof vest to work. Holding the inards of a stabbing victim inside the victim's belly was not common, but also not rare. Nor was throwing her body over her patient to protect him/her when someone started shooting at police. Yeah, and some gangs consider it a real jewel in their "crown" to kill a medic or firefighter. As for allowing others to "have her back", she has served with the finest men and women and I absolutely DO trust them to have her back. Yes, people do fail. They fail in every walk of life, and there is plenty of danger just walking down the street. But, I can't live like that. In order to maintain my mental and emotional health, I do trust, until I have just cause to believe differently, that her partners do have her back just as she has theirs.

 

Is it scary for us? Absolutely. Will I pray a lot if she gets assigned to work in Camden or Philly now that she's in NJ? Oh yes, I'll probably wear the skin off my knees! Would I have ever discourage her from serving this community in such a manner, as passionate as she has been to do so. NO WAY! I am proud of the service she provides. But, dh and I are admittedly very, very different from most Christian parents and have taken a h*ll of a lot of crap for it too. Pretty much every single person we know thinks we are nuts for "letting" dd become a medic.

 

Of course, I still produce this "WHAT THE HECK" face every time the "let" part of the phrase gets used. I just don't get that. She's not 13 anymore!

[I.Dup.]

I think it's sad that, in the context of their lives, they are building their adult roles on gestation, childbirth and child-rearing. I think it speaks to a sick system.

 

Wow.

 

I think it's sad that in the context of supposed feminism and women's rights, we still view gestating, childbirth, and child- rearing in such a derogatory and suspect manner.

 

No kidding.

[Joanne]

Just a different perspective, but my parents advised me not to date my ex (who turned out to be an abusive, cheating, terrible spouse).  I would have been saved a lot of heartache had I listened.  I can see the value in parental approval.

 

 

My mom "hated" my (first) xh from the start. I should have given more respect to her intuition and wisdom.

But that's a red herring to the discussion. Not agreeing with the courtship model does not imply disallowing influence from other adults or parents.

[Moxie]

Just a different perspective, but my parents advised me not to date my ex (who turned out to be an abusive, cheating, terrible spouse). I would have been saved a lot of heartache had I listened. I can see the value in parental approval.

There is a line somewhere between "hey, he's a bad guy, don't date him" and "hey, he's a great guy now hand me your phone so I can read your conversations".

[Guest]

My mom "hated" my (first) xh from the start. I should have given more respect to her intuition and wisdom.

But that's a red herring to the discussion. Not agreeing with the courtship model does not imply disallowing influence from other adults or parents.

 

 

There is a line somewhere between "hey, he's a bad guy, don't date him" and "hey, he's a great guy now hand me your phone so I can read your conversations".

 

Very true.  I guess I just understand that they are really trying to help her because they love her and care about her.  

[Χά�ων]

Just a different perspective, but my parents advised me not to date my ex (who turned out to be an abusive, cheating, terrible spouse). I would have been saved a lot of heartache had I listened. I can see the value in parental approval.

I am not judging but I am curious, why didn't you listen? What was that kept you from heeding the words of your parents?

[Trish]

I can't tell from the article if they're allowed to have private conversations. It says they are "monitored" ie their texts are read, and they can be together in group settings. I'm just wondering if they're allowed to have a one-on-one conversation that is not overheard by someone else. It would be kinda cool if they got around those restrictions by writing some good old fashioned love letters!

 

Anyway I think people tend to censor themselves when in the presence of others, or if they know their texts are going to be read. I think if you're considering an engagement you deserve an honest heart-to-heart talk (or two) before saying "I do."

[kroe1]

So 47% of high schoolers have done the deed if one believes the statistics from the CDC.

 

I wonder what that rate will be for the Duggars once that last child makes it to age 18.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/HealthyYouth/sexualbehaviors/

[Moxie]

So 47% of high schoolers have done the deed if one believes the statistics from the CDC.

 

I wonder what that rate will be for the Duggars once that last child makes it to age 18.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/HealthyYouth/sexualbehaviors/

I flirted, dated, went to parties and still didn't have sex until I was married. It's not that hard.

[zoobie]

So 47% of high schoolers have done the deed if one believes the statistics from the CDC.

 

I wonder what that rate will be for the Duggars once that last child makes it to age 18.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/HealthyYouth/sexualbehaviors/

It likely will be 0% because they aren't allowed out alone. What would that statistic matter?

[Tangerine]

What's the statistic for the deed of having had a private conversation with your betrothed before marriage?

[unsinkable]

 

 

I flirted, dated, went to parties and still didn't have sex until I was married. It's not that hard.

Well, if it wasn't that hard, it was probably pretty easy to avoid, if you get my drift...

[FaithManor]

Also, I think midwifery is a great career. All three of my boys were delivered by CNM's at the hospital. I had GREAT care and highly recommend this. ADORED my midwives!!!

 

But, there is a big difference between a CNM, a lay midwife who has gone through a medical certification program, and at the other end of the spectrum, an ATI midwife. If you want to know more, google Bill Gothard and pregnancy/childbirth or midwife. He writes the "training articles" for their midwife program though he's never taken a class in medicine much less women's health nor possesses any medical training whatsoever.

 

Since they self-admit to being an ATI family and Bill Gothard himself extolls their virtues as an ATI family, then my assumption is that ATI midwife training is what is referred to on the show, not medical coursework.

[Moxie]

Well, if it wasn't that hard, it was probably pretty easy to avoid, if you get my drift...

Dirty mind!!!

[Zebra]

I just think a 20 year old should be able to control herself while texting.   You want a chaperone at all times, fine.   But you can't TEXT privately?   I have various issues with the Duggars that I have always chalked up to "different strokes" but this is over the top.  This family really needs to think about the messed up boundaries they have with their ADULT children.  I think it's dysfunctional to WANT Mommy and Daddy to read all your texts, and it's messed up to not let your ADULT child have their own private texting relationship.

 

I understand that some people would read every single text their 15 year old sends, and some people wouldn't.  Different parenting styles.  But when your child is 18 you have GOT to start letting go, on both sides.

 

If you're too immature to control your own texting as an adult, you are too immature to get married.

 

 

 

 

[unsinkable]

Dirty mind!!!

Please don't send me to Gothard camp. I'll be good.

[Zebra]

Well, if it wasn't that hard, it was probably pretty easy to avoid, if you get my drift...

All I keep thinking is 30 seconds is plenty of time....for some unfortunate people I have heard about...not me of course.... :lol: !!!

[unsinkable]

I just think a 20 year old should be able to control herself while texting. You want a chaperone at all times, fine. But you can't TEXT privately? I have various issues with the Duggars that I have always chalked up to "different strokes" but this is over the top. This family really needs to think about the messed up boundaries they have with their ADULT children. I think it's dysfunctional to WANT Mommy and Daddy to read all your texts, and it's messed up to not let your ADULT child have their own private texting relationship.

 

I understand that some people would read every single text their 15 year old sends, and some people wouldn't. Different parenting styles. But when your child is 18 you have GOT to start letting go, on both sides.

 

If you're too immature to control your own texting as an adult, you are too immature to get married.

What experience does the poor girl have with inappropriate stuff that she could inappropriately text?

 

"Ooh, baby! I want to side hug you for 35 seconds, not 30 seconds! I know it's wrong, but..."

[Joanne]

Very true.  I guess I just understand that they are really trying to help her because they love her and care about her.  

 

 

I totally agree the Duggars love and care about their kids!

 

I don't agree they are making their choices out of that reality.

[Zebra]

Maybe she would send a picture of her ankles, if no one was monitoring her?  

 

DH was saying that maybe she could send verses from Song of Solomon...

[Joanne]

Martha, on 19 Sept 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

I think it's sad that in the context of supposed feminism and women's rights, we still view gestating, childbirth, and child- rearing in such a derogatory and suspect manner.

 

 

 

Martha, you have better critical reading skills than what is represented above. Nowhere do I denigrate gestating, childbirth, or child rearing. My own current job role is based on a foundation of teaching about child-rearing for 15 years.

 

 

[momto2Cs]

Yes. She could walk out and can get an education. The older girls, Janna and the other one...maybe her, have continuing education. Janna is studying and working as a doula/Montrice and the other girl has advanced midwifery education. She does a pretty decent business actually and midwifery training is NO easy thing. It requires loooong days of biology and physiology.

 

Anyway, as to courtship...it's quite common in our circle of friends. Dh and I did not, and to be honest I've always been a little sad about that.

 

Being a doula on paper does not require a lot of education. I could get my doula certificate next weekend if I wanted to. I am not trashing doulas (a lot of my best friends are doulas! ;) ) but a doula certificate is not a hard thing to earn in the places I am familiar with.

 

I don't dispute that they are smart girls. I do dispute that they have full access to higher education. Clearly they do not. Though, it doesn't seem the boys have either to be perfectly fair.

 

Considering that Jill is apparently training - yes, in college - as a nurse, I think they do have access to education should they want to take that path. While I feel that the courtship as it is laid out by the Duggars is an artificial (and creepy) construct, and I worry that both Jessa and the 18 year old are on the young side, perhaps this is what she wants to do, to marry, become a mom, etc.

[FaithManor]

I agree Joanne. I think they are parenting from fear, not love and there is a big difference. Of course the fear is "loss of salvation" because Bill Gothard's teachings are uncompromising. The view is narrow and legalistic, legalistic on steroids actually. Leaving the sect means shunning, and if one does not have connections in the outside world, homelessness which means that the girls don't leave. The parents view this as a spiritual good because they are saving their daughters' souls.

 

 

It is not "love" at least no in the way I would utilize the term. But, I also concede that for many people "love" and what it means is very fluid.

[Janie Grace]

I don't get that anyone is denigrating midwifery. It is the lack of choices that people take issue with. If one of these girls wanted to move out, got to college in a different state, study something besides midwifery, they would not be allowed.

Exactly. This is the problem. Even when they are adults, they do NOT have freedom to make morally neutral life choices and stay in good standing with their family.

 

We have friends who are Gothardites (and, predictably, every conviction they have is identical to the Duggars'; it's not a sect that allows for diversity of belief on ANYTHING). Their daughters can either study midwifery or homeopathic medicine. Period. Those are the choices. They will live at home under their dad's authority until they are married. Period.

 

Honestly, I don't think you really "get" this sub-culture unless you have had direct, intimate contact with it. You might be quiverfull  and wear long skirts, but unless you have very specific beliefs about parental authority and how far/long it extends, it's not the same thing. Bill Gothard also tells you how to wear your hair, what music to listen to, what homeschool curriculum to use, what version of the Bible to read, what OT laws to continue to obey (mandated circumcision, as an example), and on and on. Having a joyful, smiling countenance is a big thing, too. I'm not saying the Duggars are faking it. I'm just saying... don't assume that their world is as shiny-happy as it looks. 

[Mom-ninja.]

 

 Parents sometimes project their own expectations onto their children and don't always know the kids as well as they think. My dad believed in a semi-courtship model. He would have never picked my dh for me. I ran off and got married and, Hey we are happily married 16 years later.

I bolded the above and completely agree! My in-laws so do NOT know their son as they think I do. Man, if they knew the stuff *I* know about him.....oy, his poor mother. They have no idea.

 

Dh's parents would never EVER in a gabillion years have chosen me for their son. Without saying anything to me dh I asked him if he thinks his parents would have chosen me. He replied, "Hell no," and laughed. I'm am just so the wrong flavor of woman for them.

 

My parents, on the other hand, would have chosen my dh. In fact, they would have threatened to claim him as a son and disown me as daughter if I hadn't agreed with them about my dh. My mother worships my dh.

 

After thinking about it I decided I probably would have been okay with a person my parents would have chosen for me (if I lived in a culture of arranged marriage).

 

I asked dh if he would trust his parents to pick his wife and he said, "Um, not at all." 

 

So there ya go. Parents do not always know their children or what would be best for their children even if they think they do.

[*Michelle*]

We have friends who are Gothardites (and, predictably, every conviction they have is identical to the Duggars'; it's not a sect that allows for diversity of belief on ANYTHING). Their daughters can either study midwifery or homeopathic medicine. Period. Those are the choices. They will live at home under their dad's authority until they are married. Period.

 

 

That doesn't jive with Jill Duggar pursuing her BS in nursing.

 

[*Michelle*]

Or this: http://www.collegeplus.org/duggars

[FaithManor]

Considering that Jill is apparently training - yes, in college - as a nurse, I think they do have access to education should they want to take that path. While I feel that the courtship as it is laid out by the Duggars is an artificial (and creepy) construct, and I worry that both Jessa and the 18 year old are on the young side, perhaps this is what she wants to do, to marry, become a mom, etc.

If this is true, then I am very glad to hear that they are not following the prescribed teachings of the group so strictly. My dad has two of Gothard's books from the 90's and in it college for women or any kind of training outside the home except that which his organization could provide was prohibited.

 

I hope Jill is successful in her endeavors.

[NicAnn]

Or this: http://www.collegeplus.org/duggars

Thank you for the link. Duggars aside, that is really interesting.

[Janie Grace]

That doesn't jive with Jill Duggar pursuing her BS in nursing.

I should have clarified. The girls I know can pursue those two areas because those are the pursuits their father approves of. I guess the Duggar parents are more liberal! ;) Regardless, the choices for girls are very limited. I know leaving home to study elsewhere would be forbidden.

[zoobie]

That doesn't jive with Jill Duggar pursuing her BS in nursing.

She is pursuing something through a correspondence school for which the Duggar parents are paid endorsers. That is not equivalent to a freely-chosen bachelor's-level education from an accredited university.

 

Children in reality TV do not have the same legal protections as child actors. They don't receive their own paychecks, for example. Ma and Pa Duggar control the purse strings.

[FaithManor]

Correspondence nursing school? Is that even possible? How does one do clinicals, field work observation, etc.? Can one take the state certification boards without attending a B&M nursing program? Maybe just the prerequisites such as biology, microbiology, chem 1 and 2, college writing, etc. are done online and then transferred to a school that accepts the credits. I just can't imagine how an entire nursing degree done online could be legal. Unless I'm missing something, in most states, there are a significant number of required, supervised clinical hours that one must have, certified by an accredited program, before one can sit the licensing exam.

 

[Murphy101]

Well, maybe I'm a bad mom. My dd was working as an EMT and going to paramedic school in one of the most violent cities in our nation by the time she was 20.

 

As for allowing others to "have her back", she has served with the finest men and women and I absolutely DO trust them to have her back.

 

I do trust, until I have just cause to believe differently, that her partners do have her back just as she has theirs.

And that is still nothing like sending her alone to a known danger with little assurance of other having her back. Or worse, knowing that the others who need to protect her are known for not doing so - such a peace corp or human trafficking problems.

 

I don't think you are a bad mother. *shrug* I think your dd can do what she wants. But many children would not want to put their parents through that fear. And many parents would be okay with their child not doing it.

 

Martha, you have better critical reading skills than what is represented above. Nowhere do I denigrate gestating, childbirth, or child rearing. My own current job role is based on a foundation of teaching about child-rearing for 15 years.

I would think that after 15 years you would comprehend that kids following in their parents footsteps is not an unusual or sickening thing to be viewed with suspicion. It's actually quite common.

 

Even though I know many more people who insist their child should grow up to use birth control and have a career, I do not presume that every person who follows that model of their parents is oppressed into it and is being robbed of making their own choices. (Though I wager that is more common. I know many more parents who have been furious about their child not going to college or going only to 'waste' their degree by staying home and or having more than 2 kids.)

 

Not everyone, myself included, agree with your opinions about child-rearing or what a supposedly healthy family should look like.

 

I don't agree with a lot of what the Duggars do, including dating rules, but it isn't abusive or cruel and it seems the vast majority is done out of love and to help meet what they view as healthy choices. And I don't seem to see their children having a major problem with it.

 

You see that as fear. And maybe it is.

 

But the other perspective is it isn't that they fear sex. It's that the avoidance of it makes it easier to focus on oer priorities.

[Tangerine]

 They will live at home under their dad's authority until they are married. Period.

 

Yes.  I still remember that illustration in one of Bill's books.  The "UMBRELLA OF AUTHORITY" (ominous echo....).  If you're a female you're under lots of umbrellas until you die.  Never to choose to take the sinful side step and feel a little rain on your face.