a multicultural discussion of grading

[maize]

I just read a thread in which a board member reported about a grade received on an essay. This isn't about that essay, but the thread got me thinking, specifically when one or two people seemed to be suggesting that the teacher should have given a higher grade (when the grade received was over 90%) I spent some of my school years in Europe, and my experience with grading, and especially grading on written work such as essays, was very different from what I have seen in the US. I'm not sure what all the reasons are for the differences.

 

Here's what I'm talking about: in the US, even in graduate level courses, there seems to be a standard that a student who meets all the basic requirements of an assignment will get a grade in the A range. In France, meeting the basic requirements might get you a score of 12 out of 20, and that was considered an acceptable though not stellar score. A really good essay might earn sixteen points, and truly exceptional work could receive an 18 or even a 19. 20 (100%) was pretty much unheard of, because even great arguments and writing could be improved on somehow.

 

I'm wondering how we might be limiting educational development and growth because of what I perceive as an American attitude that the only really acceptable grade is an A, and therefore work at an acceptable level should receive an A grade. The trouble I see is that we have little incentive to strive for excellence when there is very little room to differentiate between levels of work from "satisfactory" to "outstanding".

[nd293]

I just read a thread in which a board member reported about a grade received on an essay. This isn't about that essay, but the thread got me thinking, specifically when one or two people seemed to be suggesting that the teacher should have given a higher grade (when the grade received was over

I had exactly the same thoughts when I read this thread. In South Africa a grade over 90% would indicate exceptional work. As a rough guide, I'd say that at post-grad level it would suggest work that was of publication quality, at undergrad level that the student was producing work a couple of levels ahead of expectations (1st year writing at 3rd year level of sophistication etc). A well-written essay would get you a 75%, but most students would not expect a grade that high.

 

Over marking at US universities is a real issue, in that it is a concern for US students who study abroad. When I was working in a department offering a post-grad programme in development studies the US students (formally) complained about their 'low' marks, and the impact it would have on prospects for PhD programme entrance in the US. We had a very international student body on this course, and in the 5 years I was either doing the course or working in the department I didn't hear of any other complaints.

[Tap]

It is a problem in the US. If a student in the US is deemed a superior student, they are usually moved to an honors class (in schools that have them). 

 

A major problem is that a kid can do less rigorous work in a regular English class and get an A, but in an honors English a student turning in a similar paper may get a C.  When it comes time to apply to colleges, the A student looks better on paper than the C student, even though they are the same caliber of student.  To resolve this issue, some schools have gone beyond the USAs traditional 4 pt scale, and are moving toward a 5 point. ( 4pt=A+, 3pt=B+, 2pt=C+, 1pt=D+) To get a score over a 4pt, it requires AP exams, honors or other advanced placement class.  BUT not all schools do this, so it is up to various universities to figure it all out.

 

 

Ds19 had this problem when he applied for scholarships at his school.  He did dual enrollment, so he started college at 15yo.  When he applied to his current school, they look for grades to determine academic merit scholarships.  It didn't matter that his high B average was from classes like college chemistry and college calculus 2 (when most kids are in high school geometry and biology) , it was just seen as a B average.

 

There are schools here that rightly tell kids to NOT do dual enrollment if they may be eligible to academic scholarships. They tell them to stay in regular classes so they can get the 4pt GPA.  They can end up hurting them selves more than helping in the long run by taking classes that actually offer them an appropriate challenge but could net them a B and blemish their academic record..  

[Heather in Neverland]

Interesting. I was just thinking about this the other day mostly in relation to a grade my son received on a test. We have many teachers here who believe that no one should ever get 100% because there is always room for improvement.

 

But doesn't that, in and of itself, promote the idea that we should strive for perfection? No matter how hard you try, no matter how well you do, you will never receive a perfect score. It will never be good enough. You always have to do MORE unless you are perfectly satisfied with a mediocre grade.

 

I can tell you that in the Asian world, an A- is as bad as an F. It's not just an American thing. If I try to compensate as a teacher by marking my students harder, they just work harder and produce more. They will.not.stop. until they get an A+. If I ask for a 10-page paper they will give me 15. If they get a 97% on a test the first thing they ask is "how can I do better to get 100%?"

 

The other thing we have to ask ourselves is: what is the purpose of grading? In education you start with an objective for the lesson. For instance, "Today in grade 1 we are learning to add two digit numbers with regrouping." If that is the objective, how do you know when the student has reached that objective? How do they show mastery of that info? Do they have to get it right 100% of the time? 90% of the time? 80% of the time?

 

So is the point of education mastery of knowledge or the grade? I don't think "giving an A for all work that meets the criteria" or "never giving an A ever" is the answer. There has to be a better way of determining mastery.

 

 

[kiwik]

I don't think any of us ever expected to get 100%.

[Jane in NC]

Interesting.

 

My son participated in an archaeological field school program run by a British university.  The grade of "First" is given to those with a 70% or above average---yet only a small fraction of the students there achieved this.  More common were the grades of 2:1 or 2:2--essentially a good grade for achieving about 60 percent proficiency.  Considering that the students were all archaeology majors, there are high expectations of mastery.

 

Perhaps this is why I did not give percentages on much of my son's work.  There was always room for improvement. 

 

Good topic.

Jane

 

 

[linders]

As an American, I'm finding this discussion enlightening. It supports my fear that "grade inflation" in the US is having the effect of encouraging mediocrity.

 

When I was in school (late '60s - late '70s), grades of "B" and "C" were common, and were cause for a parent to ask, "Hm, do you need to work harder?" rather than a horrible lapse. An "A" meant something when only a few achieved it, and they had to work hard to do so. In my high school graduating class of over 700 students, there was one 4.0 student and a handful in the 3.8-3.9 range. This past year, I noted that our local high school graduated about 300 students, of whom 15 had GPAs of 4.0 (even though our local school doesn't do the 5-pt system yet).

 

DS10 often talks "school stuff" with 2 friends who attend the local private school. He wants to know why I don't put lots of extra-credit problems on my tests, because his friends' teachers do, so almost everyone in the class gets >90% and an A.

 

Ah, well, as the US scores in math and science decline compared to other countries, I guess we can be consoled by the fact the US students have high self-esteem. 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

Calvin is in the IB system.  The very top mark is a 7, and for that you have to show flair, not just compliance.

 

L

[Laura Corin]

Interesting.

 

My son participated in an archaeological field school program run by a British university.  The grade of "First" is given to those with a 70% or above average---yet only a small fraction of the students there achieved this.  More common were the grades of 2:1 or 2:2--essentially a good grade for achieving about 60 percent proficiency.  Considering that the students were all archaeology majors, there are high expectations of mastery.

 

Perhaps this is why I did not give percentages on much of my son's work.  There was always room for improvement. 

 

Good topic.

Jane

 

In my department at university, two people out of about forty got a first as their final degree result, the rest mostly got 2:1 and 2:2.  

 

L

[QueenCat]

A's used to be more for excellence than they are now..... Growing up, most people got B's and C's, and they were good/decent students. Now, people frown on C's, and wonder why the B student didn't get the A.

[beaners]

I think there is an American and Asian habit of grading from the top, where your score is reduced for errors. You start with 100, and you lose points.

There is still grade inflation here in the US, where things that would have been marked off in the recent past are ignored and generous extra credit is available. 

 

In contrast, the European grading system seems to be a bottom-up system, where you are earning each point for the quality of your work.  You start with a 0, and gain points from there.

 

 

[maize]

I was kidding when I said the grade should have been higher. I was just being in general supportive of that person and cracking a joke. I don't have an opinion about what grade she should have gotten. I think the grade she got was very good.

Yes, the comments posted make sense in the context of the other thread, there really isn't a direct link between that thread and my post here, it just triggered a chain of thoughts that led me to come post a new thread.

[Laura Corin]

I think there is an American and Asian habit of grading from the top, where your score is reduced for errors. You start with 100, and you lose points.

There is still grade inflation here in the US, where things that would have been marked off in the recent past are ignored and generous extra credit is available. 

 

In contrast, the European grading system seems to be a bottom-up system, where you are earning each point for the quality of your work.  You start with a 0, and gain points from there.

 

This makes sense.  I always felt that in the UK you got 'points for' (particular elements) not 'points against' (for omitting things).

 

Laura

[maize]

I do think the different systems for entrance play a role in the distinct approaches to grading. In a system where end of high school exams determine graduation and university placement, the standards of those exams serve as a reference point for the grading of course work. Only work that would achieve top marks on the final exams is given top marks in class. This way students always know how they are performing in relation to their goal of passing/achieving high marks. A similar approach in the States might be for teachers of AP classes to only hand out As for work that would deserve a score of 5 on the AP exams. Of course, with the emphasis on high school grades for university entrance, following such an approach might sabotage the prospects of students taking AP courses...

[Arcadia]

I think there is an American and Asian habit of grading from the top, where your score is reduced for errors. You start with 100, and you lose points.

 

Asia starts from the bottom up and use a lot of "red ink". Malaysia and Singapore uses UK's grading system, 70 is an A and 1st class honours are rare. There is no point in grade inflation in school because the Cambridge GCE 'O' and 'A' level examiners aren't going to be that kind and school scores don't count for university admission.

China, India, Japan, Korea and Taiwan has university entrance exams that are "killers" too. China and India's top universities are not kind in giving grades either. The rest of the countries I don't know.

Just curious where you got the idea that Asia is top down marking :)

[beaners]

Asia starts from the bottom up and use a lot of "red ink". Malaysia and Singapore uses UK's grading system, 70 is an A and 1st class honours are rare. There is no point in grade inflation in school because the Cambridge GCE 'O' and 'A' level examiners aren't going to be that kind and school scores don't count for university admission.

China, India, Japan, Korea and Taiwan has university entrance exams that are "killers" too. China and India's top universities are not kind in giving grades either. The rest of the countries I don't know.

Just curious where you got the idea that Asia is top down marking :)

 

I've heard a consistent chorus from immigrant parents that I've known asking "What happened to those two points?" if someone brings home a 98. I'm looking less at university and exit exam grading than it sounds like you are.

[Arcadia]

I've heard a consistent chorus from immigrant parents that I've known asking "What happened to those two points?" if someone brings home a 98. I'm looking less at university and exit exam grading than it sounds like you are.

That is because 100 is the ideal score.  It is possible to score a 100 for math at the elementary school level if all working are shown. It Is possible but rare to score a 100 for the sciences too if all the points are written. For the languages, it is impossible as it is too subjective to give a full score for the writing portion of the language arts exam. All our exams from 1st grade are written with multiple choice taking a small portion of the exam marks.

 

Since California's state standardized tests are multiple choice exams, those two points would mean the child has one multiple choice question answered wrongly. The public school my kid went to gives grades of 4 (exceeds), 3 (meets state standards), 2 (progressing) and 1 instead of points for their elementary school student report card.

[Χά�ων]

This is a very interesting discussion. I am not a fan of the US grading system but have no experience with other systems.

[Arcadia]

About 50 countries are described in the below link. It is describing university education grading system.

"Important note: In the UK system, it is often more difficult to obtain the higher grade designations than in the US system.

Don’t panic if you are usually a high achieving student but receive a grade that appears low according to your home university’s grade scale; it may actually reflect very good performance on the UK scale.

 

Degree class                % mark                            US

First                              70-100                         A

Upper Second             60-69                            A-/B+

Lower Second             50-59                            B

Third                         40-49                             B

Pass                            39-30                          C

Fail                            less than 30                  F

 

In general, percentages increase from 40 rather than decrease from 100" (link from ISEP)

[TeacherZee]

The highest grade I ever got at uni in the UK was an 81%. It was the highest grade any of my friends ever got. I had ambitious and hard working friends. Only one graduated with a First. I ended with a 2:1 (I am NOT a good test taker so I was very happy)
.

At universities in Sweden we have the following grades: Fail, pass, distinction.

 

Swedish high school grades according to criteria on and A-F scale. You have to achieve all the E, C and A criteria to get an A. To get a B you have to achieve all the E and C criteria and a majority of the A criteria and so on. However you do not have to get an A on all assignments to get an A. We don't do summary grades, it is what you know that is primary.

[Tress]

I think there is an American and Asian habit of grading from the top, where your score is reduced for errors. You start with 100, and you lose points.

There is still grade inflation here in the US, where things that would have been marked off in the recent past are ignored and generous extra credit is available. 

 

In contrast, the European grading system seems to be a bottom-up system, where you are earning each point for the quality of your work.  You start with a 0, and gain points from there.

 

I can't speak for the rest of Europe, but in the Netherlands the grading is often from the top down.

The last few years of High School (7-12th) we had lots of test where they deducted one point for every mistake.

Grades are given on a 10 point scale and you needed to get at least 5.5 (or 6 if the teacher did not give half points) to pass the exam.

[Laura Corin]

That is interesting.  Here a 70 would be more like a C. 

 

 

I think that part of the issue is that very few tasks in high school and university are closed - most are open ended. Multi-choice is very rare.  Almost all subjects are essay based from age 14 onwards.  So, for example, a typical biology question  at school would show a diagram of an experiment and ask what the experiment is testing for, what the results could be and what their significance might be.  There's a lot of leeway in there for good as well as excellent results.  A good child might say that the experiment will produce result A.  A very good child might add that normally result A would be produced but under these circumstances results B or C could be expected.  An exceptional child might add that result C connects to another phenomenon that lies outside the curriculum.  So there is lots of 'room at the top' of the mark scheme.

 

In French, for example, a translation might be graded good for being completely grammatically accurate.  Excellence would require a feel for the language or a flair in the expression that took it beyond the merely correct.

 

For maths, where there is a right answer for most questions, a percentage of the questions on the exam paper will require leaps of understanding that are beyond the standard curriculum, allowing those with real insight to shine.  Those without that insight will be unable to answer the question.  Knowing when to give up trying to answer a question on a British exam paper is a key skill.

 

I hope that all this explains how a relatively low percentage can be a pass mark - the low percentage still reflects understanding of the material, it just doesn't show exceptional use of/extrapolation from that material.

 

ETA: I do know of someone who received a mark in the 90s for a public 'high school' exam, but it's really rare.

 

L

[Kathryn]

About 50 countries are described in the below link. It is describing university education grading system.

"Important note: In the UK system, it is often more difficult to obtain the higher grade designations than in the US system.

Don’t panic if you are usually a high achieving student but receive a grade that appears low according to your home university’s grade scale; it may actually reflect very good performance on the UK scale.

 

Degree class % mark US

First 70-100 A

Upper Second 60-69 A-/B+

Lower Second 50-59 B

Third 40-49 B

Pass 39-30 C

Fail less than 30 F

 

In general, percentages increase from 40 rather than decrease from 100" (link from ISEP)

I find the US grade equivalents comical. The uniform grading policy for my state is:

93-100% A

85-92% B

77-84% C

70-76% D

69 and below F

[Kareni]

My father was educated in the Netherlands where the top score was a ten.  I remember him saying that ten was for God and nine was for the teacher.  A student was fortunate to ever see an eight.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[LostSurprise]

I taught high school English in the United States and I can't recall any time when someone received 100% for a writing assignment at the high school level. Hmm, okay, once, but I believe this student was profoundly gifted and was that far beyond the rest of us for the assignment. He was working at a higher level. 

 

Generally students are graded on a rubric which is shown to students. Points are assigned to each of the elements (which are weighted by the teacher depending on what you're working on as a class). This is done to make grading more fair because grading writing can be unique to individual taste. There are a lot of abstract elements. 

 

With younger students, especially ones learning the technical elements of writing, its not unusual to grade abstract elements like expression very leniently. You want to encourage them that they are mastering technique, not deride them for their lack of experience. A lot of style comes with experience. 

 

I think this all comes down to a style issue. Does an A mean that students are fulfilling everything you asked for or does an A mean a perfect ideal that no one can really obtain? 

[TeacherZee]

I think that part of the issue is that very few tasks in high school and university are closed - most are open ended. Multi-choice is very rare.  Almost all subjects are essay based from age 14 onwards.  So, for example, a typical biology question  at school would show a diagram of an experiment and ask what the experiment is testing for, what the results could be and what their significance might be.  There's a lot of leeway in there for good as well as excellent results.  A good child might say that the experiment will produce result A.  A very good child might add that normally result A would be produced but under these circumstances results B or C could be expected.  An exceptional child might add that result C connects to another phenomenon that lies outside the curriculum.  So there is lots of 'room at the top' of the mark scheme.

 

In French, for example, a translation might be graded good for being completely grammatically accurate.  Excellence would require a feel for the language or a flair in the expression that took it beyond the merely correct.

 

For maths, where there is a right answer for most questions, a percentage of the questions on the exam paper will require leaps of understanding that are beyond the standard curriculum, allowing those with real insight to shine.  Those without that insight will be unable to answer the question.  Knowing when to give up trying to answer a question on a British exam paper is a key skill.

 

I hope that all this explains how a relatively low percentage can be a pass mark - the low percentage still reflects understanding of the material, it just doesn't show exceptional use of/extrapolation from that material.

 

L

 

This would be the case in Sweden as well. I very very rarely ask pure "fact questions". For grades C and up in Sweden you need to show an ability to analyse and that is hard to judge on a % scale. Because e have a matrix system I don't actually give grades for individual assignments, instead I comment using a star and a wish (something they've done well and something they need to improve) and then I mark each students individual matrix to show them where they are on the knowledge criteria.

 

 

[maize]

My father was educated in the Netherlands where the top score was a ten. I remember him saying that ten was for God and nine was for the teacher. A student was fortunate to ever see an eight.

 

Regards,

Kareni

There was a saying like this in France. 20 was for God, 19 for the teacher, 18 for the teacher's pet, and 17 for the best student.

[maize]

This would be the case in Sweden as well. I very very rarely ask pure "fact questions". For grades C and up in Sweden you need to show an ability to analyse and that is hard to judge on a % scale. Because e have a matrix system I don't actually give grades for individual assignments, instead I comment using a star and a wish (something they've done well and something they need to improve) and then I mark each students individual matrix to show them where they are on the knowledge criteria.

 

 

This matrix sounds very interesting. Can you give us an example of a matrix you might use?

[TeacherZee]

This matrix sounds very interesting. Can you give us an example of a matrix you might use?

 

Sure. But I'll come back and do that tomorrow. I'm heading to bed now and it will take some time to fix one I can show since the ones I have are in Swedish :)

[saw]

My dds are in the final year of the Dutch system, although they have already done nearly half of their final exams since they are home-schooled through an "official" Dutch internet school. As others have noted the marks go from 1 to 10, but a 10 isn't anything like an A in the US.

They got a 10 for their final exam in English, rounded up from a 9.something  from each of three separate tests, a test of written English, a test of spoken English and an oral literature test. But it wasn't a given that they would get a 10, even though they're native speakers and very verbal ones at that. They worked very hard at it and the only reason they got a 10 was the combination of being a native speaker and lots of work. 

To give you a sense of what the numbers mean, an average of 8 on your final marks list (you get a final mark for each subject you study over the course of six years (unless you're in a program that takes 4 or 5 years of course)(, cumulatively -- for example, you don't take one year of physics, but take physics over the course of six years) will get you onto the A list for admission to medical school. That means you won't have to participate in the lottery to see if you get a place at medical school. In other words, an 8 average is pretty doggone impressive. 

 

DS12 is in a prep school in the UK -- if he gets an 81 on an exam (I think this has happened 2x) it's really really good. He needs to get somewhere between 60 and 70 per cent on Common Entrance (entrance exam for selective senior schools) to be accepted. You just don't hear of 90s or 100s on those. 

 

It's taken me quite a while to figure out all these marks systems -- and I'm still trying to figure out what my dds' friends really mean with their A*s and As on their AS levels etc!

 

[mom2bee]

Very interesting line of thought and oddly enough, one that I was thinking of just a few hours before I read about the essay thing. I think I remember seeing someone mentioning the gradescheme in Asian schools is a lot different (was this in a Singapore PM thread?)

 

Anyway, I do find the whole idea of grading very, very, very interesting and do wonder about just what grades are worth. Everything is so arbitrary, so...subjective....

 

I have many international friends (I'm from the US born, bred and educated) who laugh at / mock the US grading system and quality of classes.

[Tammi K]

When we lived in Australia my kids attended a Steiner (Waldorf) school so I'm not sure how much the philosophy of education impacted the grading percentages but what I found to be typical of their school was they my children would receive a percentage grade (I understand this is typical of Australian schools) as well as a detailed narrative (typical in Steiner schools) of their progress.

 

What I found interesting as an American is that when they would get grades of 85 - 90%, my first though would be, "Oh my, they need to work harder." Yet, when I read the narrative, the teachers would have such lovely comments about how hard they worked and how well they were doing in the class. It took me awhile to understand that I could not expect them to receive the same grades they did in an America school BUT that didn't mean that they were not doing very well in mastering the subject.  It was just a cultural difference that had to be accepted.

[bolt.]

As an adjunct college prof (Bible College) I was told that my grading should reflect this:

 

C is acceptable work, average, doing good enough, not work that you would call poor: adiquate.

B is work that is above average, well done, genuinely good work.

A is excellence, very nearly flawless. (A+ is flawless, brilliant work)

D is barely meeting minimal expectations for taking the course, poor but acceptable work.

 

Forgot to say: this is in Canada

[Lisa in SC]

Dd17 attended public high school. She took AP and honor classes, because she required the challenge. During the college admissions phase, she met with representatives from the colleges to which she applied. All of them told her that the actual classes taken, and the level of challenge shown carried more weight than the grade received. She was mostly an A student, but she worked for her marks. She struggled mightily in honors chemistry, but managed to get a low B through blood, sweat and tears...ok no blood, but a whole river of sweat and tears. She was told that her low B carried more weight than had she received an A in a non-honors class. This seems different than what has been mentioned upthread, so I wonder if this is more dependent upon the particular universities?

[TeacherZee]

Okay lets see if I a coherent today :)

 

Link 1

 

Link 2

 

The above links should take you to two matrices for the same class, English 6 or junior English here. They are in Swedish because I really do not have the brain power to translate them today :) but they should give you an idea. As you can see they are highlighted in green (or yellow). Green means that you have achieved the criteria. These students would both get Bs, but you can see (even if you don't understand the writing) that they have achieved different criteria. 

 

I will try and translate English 7 over the weekend (something I need to do anyway) so you can see the type of criteria that are used. The criteria comes directly from the national guidelines.