planner Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 DD's 4th grade teacher passed out a two page essay response assignment on Monday. He said it was due the next Monday. It was based on their literature book. They finished reading it today instead of Friday like he planned. He changed the due date from Monday today (Thursday) to Friday. DD had planned to do the assignment this weekend and hadn't started. Dd's homework planner has the assignment written with the side note of "Seriously? Come on." That should tell you what she thinks of it. I think it's unfair. She budgeted her time and the teacher changed the rules. What's your thought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I think it's unfair and such is life. *shrug* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 It will help her to not put off projects, but you can also talk to the teacher about it. I've also had "chats" with a teacher who kept postponing a due-date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2samlibby Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Was it an assignment that could be worked on before finishing the book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Changing due dates to make them earlier? Not fair at all. I've never had a teacher do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I would have my child respectfully appeal to the teacher, explaining that she had planned her time based on the original due date for the assignment. A two page essay is not a trivial assignment for a 4th grader -- it's not like she can skip watching a sitcom and knock it out in a half hour. (Well, if she can do it that quickly, then I would just have her do it, but talk to the teacher later.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Ok, so it was due this coming Mon but he changed it to today? That is absolutely NOT ok. I taught English for many years at the high school level. I would never do this, EVER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckens Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I would look at a business model to determine whether this was fair or not. Suppose that I (the teacher) contract with your company to provide 100 widgets (an assignment) for me by a specific date (Monday). It would be breaking a contract if I penalized you (paid you 20% less, or dropped the value of your grade by one letter) for not providing the widgets on Friday. The exception would be if terms were re-negotiated and AGREED UPON BY BOTH PARTIES. For example: We will pay you 20% more to deliver on Friday; or you still need to write the paper, but it only needs to be half as long (which may or may not be acceptable to the second party). The point is: adults would never be treated this way. Why is is acceptable for children? Methinks the teacher wants to grade the papers over the weekend rather than Monday night. This is not unreasonable to desire, but it is unreasonable to be a tool towards your students and break their trust because of your personal needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie G Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 She's a 4th grader! I get that we want our kids to work on things a little at a time and not wait until the last minute but she thought she had three extra days to work on it- which should have been plenty of time. I can't fault a 10 year old for being upset about the deadline switch. Now, if she was a high school student, it might be a good lesson in 'things happen and sometimes you have to switch gears to get things done early'. If my boss changed my project deadline like that I would be upset...and I'm way older than a 4th grader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigs Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I would look at a business model to determine whether this was fair or not. Suppose that I (the teacher) contract with your company to provide 100 widgets (an assignment) for me by a specific date (Monday). It would be breaking a contract if I penalized you (paid you 20% less, or dropped the value of your grade by one letter) for not providing the widgets on Friday. The exception would be if terms were re-negotiated and AGREED UPON BY BOTH PARTIES. For example: We will pay you 20% more to deliver on Friday; or you still need to write the paper, but it only needs to be half as long (which may or may not be acceptable to the second party). The point is: adults would never be treated this way. Why is is acceptable for children? Methinks the teacher wants to grade the papers over the weekend rather than Monday night. This is not unreasonable to desire, but it is unreasonable to be a tool towards your students and break their trust because of your personal needs. :iagree: Changing the due date on an assignment is definitely breach of contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Well my dh and his dad sell machines all the time and it's not unusual at all for the person they are selling to to want it sooner than expected. His contract costs doesn't change, but it sure affect their future business. So they do their best to meet the new deadline if it's possible. If not, then it's not. Adults are treated that way in business everyday. Deadlines are often moved up or down for reports and such. The smart professional never waits until it's due to have it complete. *shrug* It's have to be more than this for me to complain about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I'll be the opposite person.. she should have been working on it all along as her teacher expected. Her outline or web should have been done as far as it could be each night and some of her body paragraphs finished, leaving her with the ending and revision Thursday. She needs to use part of her study/hw time nightly to reflect on the discussion and work done in class. Now, if she didn't budget in 40 minutes each weeknight for homework and use it wisely, I wouldn't address it with the teacher at all. If she has spare time in class and didn't use it on academics, I"d hide under a rock. That's the minimum expecation here. If she had required school events that prevented her from doing her hw, (concert, etc) I'd ask for an extension. Otherwise take it as a learning lesson. As a parent of a high school student, I tell everyone who asks about how my child manages scholar/athlete plus a night class not to let students blow things off to the weekend. It does them no favor in learning how to break up a big assignment into manageable parts or to develop time management skills and guess what -- varsity sports and extracurriculars and jobs have large chunks of weekends booked. Using time wisely needs to start in elementary. I had this discussion this week with my high school junior. I pointed out that one of the girls sports teams has a 98 average and every single person on the team is a scholar athlete. The coach mentioned at the award ceremony that their method was to use time wisely -- they do get out their books and get things done while waiting for rides, while on the bus etc. They give up part of lunch if they need help and they won't be able to get to a help session after school and no one else on the team can help them. *You* may plan your schedule this way, but that doesn't make it the only right way. In fact, for some people whose brains are wired differently than yours, this wouldn't even work for them. There is no reason in the world why there was anything wrong with the student planning her schedule to do it on the weekend. None at all, if that's when it worked best for her. In real life, in the workplace, people manage their time as they will as long as they make deadlines. My husband works under deadlines with clients constantly. The deadline is part of the contract. If I client demanded an earlier deadline, it would cost them significant money and the company might still say no. People can't always shift at the last minute. "Your lack of planning is not my emergency." In this case, I would have had my student appeal to the teacher and explain that she had planned to do it over the weekend and ask if she could hand it in at the regularly scheduled deadline. If he didn't budge, as the parent I would probably also appeal, all the while telling my kid that things aren't always fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeacherZee Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I would never change an assignment due date to an earlier date, but routinely push dates back. I think it is very unfair of the teacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 If I understood the OP correctly, the original plan was to finish the book on Friday the 13th and turn in the essay on Monday the 16th. But the book was finished Thursday the 12th and then the teacher announced that the essay would be due the next day on Friday the 13th. No, I don't think that is fair at all. The original plan would have been to have three days to work on it after finishing the book. This plan gives one day, and at the last minute, with no regard for what other plans these FOURTH-GRADERS' families might already have that night. And I don't see how they were expected to have been writing outlines and drafts of a RESPOSE essay when they hadn't finished the book until yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 We aren't talking about high school students here..... 4th grade?! I can't even believe they have to freaking write essays in 4th grade. Mine were writing two page papers in 3rd grade, in public school. This would have been since the passage of NCLB for at least one of them. That was actually the first year more than a paragraph or two was expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 What on earth is the hamburger model! LOL A formula sandwich. Intro Facts Closing Or some such similar set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I'd be annoyed if my dd who in all honors/IB courses in high school had teachers changing deadlines. I think it's ridiculous for a 4th grader to deal with. 4th graders are still learning how to manage time. It sounds perfectly appropriate for a 9-10 year old to look at a calendar and note that an assignment is due in 1 week. She should be able to schedule the rest of her week around counting on what the teacher said. This makes it possible for the 9 or 10 year old to start forecasting how they use their time around soccer and music lessons. If the teacher throws this in flux and then why should the child actually bother learning time management. A pp said the student should have done a little each night. Some people's schedules look like that some don't. 10 year olds actually don't control their schedule (mom and dad tell them when they are home and when they aren't and sometimes mom and dad throw that predictability in flux). A 10 year might know she can never do homework on Tuesday nights. If she has a planner and knows the schedule she can plan around that. This is a good skill to learn. By changing due dates the teacher is doing nothing to help this student learn time management. Accept that maybe it's a waste of time because you can't count on the teacher. Perhaps in high school we can start having the student learn that sometimes the deadline gets moved up, but I think fourth grade is inappropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Sorry, I'm with Martha on this one. We make bank here at our home because clients change their deadlines all the time and we can flex to meet their needs. No one screams 'breach of contract'; instead its 'how can I get the job done better than spec as fast as possible'. Matter of fact, if I told my manager no to a change in priorities, I'd probably be told to clean out my desk. I do understand your real world is different, but we are talking about a school expectation here, not a workplace. My parenting experience is that the student likely didn't receive the full communication from the teacher. Given that it's fourth grade, she was likely expected to work on the assignment during her free time at school and during her 40 minute hw/study slot and use the entire writing process, not just dash off an essay from the top of her head on Saturday. The teacher will likely wise up and demand that all of the peices be turned in next time -- outline,etc. I wouldn't even contact the teacher. Of course, if you as a parent beleive that a student can excel by leaving all her hw & study to the weekend, well more power to you. If that is the case, I'd say the student is misplaced and the work is far too easy, but in any case I beleive it is irresponsible to advocate the cram on a routine basis. The cram at work is of course at totally different thing; one is not learning, one is producing and one makes money by being efficient. I'll agree to disagree on this point. Having Friday night, all day Saturday, and Sunday to do an assignment is certainly not cramming. There is nothing in the OP that said the essay was to be being worked on all along. They hadn't finished the reading yet. I think it's actually the teacher who was expecting cramming, not the OP's dd. If he gave the assignment on Monday, let's say kids get home by 3:30 and go to bed at 8:30. That's 5 hours per day. That's 20 hours by Fri morning. Add 5 hours Friday, 12 hours Sat and 12 hours Sunday, that's 29 hours. The teacher actually moved the deadline to less than 50% of the previously available hours to do the assignment. You stated that your workplace is set up and CAN flex to meet clients' changes. Fine. You're in a different industry than my husband and the deadline certainly is part of the contract for my husband's industry. This is a 4th grade student who had no idea she was expected to be able to flex on a whim from the teacher. She had made a plan and it was a very reasonable one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Their English teacher is there to teach English. How busy the kids are outside of school is not their problem. Such is what they sign up for when enrolling kids in schools. You don't get to determine assignments or when they are due or make your own plans anymore. Just today I had in the schedule for my 5th grader to do a project on Monday. Upon further consideration, I decided I'd rather us do something else that day and it won't leave time for him to do it that day, so I added it to our plans for today. He sorta groaned and muttered something. Then shrugged and got to it. This happens rather frequently. I am far more likely to move an assignment up rather than back. It didn't go past me that the OP topic is a 4th grader. A 4th grader is not kindergarten and is not high school. Writing what I suspect is not anywhere near a high school level paper last night is not some traumatic event in the life of the average 10(ish) aged child that needs mom-intervention at school IMO. If this requires mom intervention, I imagine it's going to be a very very long school year of lots and lots of intervention for the OP. Which I guess is fine if she wants to (tho I'd be glad not to be teaching her kid), but I'd personally save my energy for bigger issues that are bound to come up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammi K Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 We make bank here at our home because clients change their deadlines all the time and we can flex to meet their needs. Sorry for the off-topic post, but could you please explain what this phrase means? I consider myself well read and reasonably intelligent, but I have never heard this phrase and I am truly stumped by it's meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Their English teacher is there to teach English. How busy the kids are outside of school is not their problem. Such is what they sign up for when enrolling kids in schools. You don't get to determine assignments or when they are due or make your own plans anymore. But the OP isn't saying that she wants to change the due date -- she just wants the teacher to hold to what he originally said. If it had originally been due on Friday this week, the student would have had to make other choices about how to manage her time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 After reading this, I'd rather it had been about babies' due dates. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Well my dh and his dad sell machines all the time and it's not unusual at all for the person they are selling to to want it sooner than expected. His contract costs doesn't change, but it sure affect their future business. So they do their best to meet the new deadline if it's possible. If not, then it's not. Adults are treated that way in business everyday. Deadlines are often moved up or down for reports and such. The smart professional never waits until it's due to have it complete. A couple of things: The business equivalent here would be that your dh finds out the day beforehand that they want the machine the very next day. He has just now received all of the parts needed to put the machine together, and there are not enough man-hours available to get it done by tomorrow. He can hire extra help, have workers work overtime, etc., but the bottom line is that if there was a contract for the original date, the customer cannot legally penalize your dh for not meeting the new deadline. (Now, he may not get a future contract with that customer, but doesn't apply to a school situation.) And the student can't really bring on extra help, nor should she be expected to lose a significant amount of sleep in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 We aren't talking about high school students here..... 4th grade?! I can't even believe they have to freaking write essays in 4th grade. My thought is : 4th grade?! Who cares if she doesn't hand it in on time? It isn't going to go on a high school transcript. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Sorry for the off-topic post, but could you please explain what this phrase means? I consider myself well read and reasonably intelligent, but I have never heard this phrase and I am truly stumped by it's meaning. "Making bank" means that their livelihood depends on them making it work that way. In other words, they can go to the bank and make a withdrawal, they are in the black, because they are able to deal with this. Conversely, they would be in the red, not making bank, if they didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 But the OP isn't saying that she wants to change the due date -- she just wants the teacher to hold to what he originally said. If it had originally been due on Friday this week, the student would have had to make other choices about how to manage her time.*shrug* Plans change and people adjust to it. I have a time hard doing it, but it's part of life. My thought is : 4th grade?! Who cares if she doesn't hand it in on time? It isn't going to go on a high school transcript. Sure. It's an option to take that track too, even in high school or college. I'd have no problem looking over the syllabi with my student and discussing how big a hit this would be on their grade to either turn it in Monday or not at all. 5 points out of a possible 1200 by course end for an A student? Pfft. We're going swimming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 It is not acceptable. Even if you are of the opinion the student should have been working on it earlier, it is fully within the student's discretion to have budgeted the time for the weekend. For all I know, the student had other projects and activities that she decided should receive priority, since the assignment was not due until Monday. If the teacher wants to teach students to structure their time by giving long term assignments, he needs to stick to the schedule. What he is currently doing is sending the message that they should not attempt to plan out their week, because he can change the rules short notice, and they must be doing everything right away to be safe. This, to me, seems to defeat the purpose of long term assignments. If I did this to my college students (who are supposed to work independently, budget their time, structure their schedules), I'd get in serious trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 It is not acceptable. Even if you are of the opinion the student should have been working on it earlier, it is fully within the student's discretion to have budgeted the time for the weekend. For all I know, the student had other projects and activities that she decided should receive priority, since the assignment was not due until Monday. If the teacher wants to teach students to structure their time by giving long term assignments, he needs to stick to the schedule. What he is currently doing is sending the message that they should not attempt to plan out their week, because he can change the rules short notice, and they must be doing everything right away to be safe. This, to me, seems to defeat the purpose of long term assignments. If I did this to my college students (who are supposed to work independently, budget their time, structure their schedules), I'd get in serious trouble. :iagree: I wouldn't do this to my homeschooled 7th to 12th graders, either. They are juggling academics, jobs, extra-curricular activities, and sports. The adults in their lives need to be reliable concerning schedules and expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Yeah and it's 4th grade (again...broken record here). What if the kid needs a bit of help with this? That would not be unreasonable. As the parent I'd be pissed off. So glad I don't have to deal with this.... Schools sound like scary places... I am with you! My PS pushes essays in the fourth grade, so until yesterday I was a little paranoid that maybe my kids would fall behind in writing. No more. Last night my friend read me a three page essay written by her fifth grade son that got a perfect score. It was terrifyingly terrible and it got 100%. Yet it was perfectly age appropriate writing. So maybe PSs need to stop calling this type of writing an "essay" and start calling it "stream of thought." I think the point I was trying to make before I deviated is asking the kid to sit down and put whatever thoughts on the subject and handed it in would have been acceptable. Was it fair to chane the deadline? No, I bet the teacher didn't want kids working over the weekend. He should have thought about it before, but it's fourth grade, so just hand in what you have :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 We make bank here at our home because clients change their deadlines all the time and we can flex to meet their needs. No one screams 'breach of contract'; instead its 'how can I get the job done better than spec as fast as possible'. Matter of fact, if I told my manager no to a change in priorities, I'd probably be told to clean out my desk. Not all industries can work like this. In my husband's business, if a client moves a deadline up it would cost the company a lot more money because they would have to bring in more people and more equipment to get the job done. The contract would be adjusted and the increased cost (as well as any travel and shipping expenses) would be passed along to the client. It is not cheap for a client to do this - on the rare occasion this is mentioned, they often back off of the requested change in deadline when they find out how much it is going to cost them. Sometimes the request can't be met simply because there aren't enough hours in the day - it takes time to do a good job and there are often a limited number of people who are qualified to do any given task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planner Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 Well, I did email the teacher. I told him the dd had budgeted her time and decided she wanted to do this assignment on the weekend. She had to go to her brother's therapy last night and as such had to do her homework in a waiting room with a blaring tv. It is very difficult for her to concentrate there and if she would have known the assignment was due on Friday, she would never have waited until Thursday to start. I wouldn't have let her wait knowing what our Thursday nights look like and knowing that she had two tests scheduled for Friday. I told him it was unfair to change the due date. His response was that he changed the due date because they finished the story early and he would rather grade papers over the weekend than during the week. It works better for his schedule. He did offer to let dd turn in the paper on Monday but she did the assignment last night so it doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 His response was that he changed the due date because they finished the story early and he would rather grade papers over the weekend than during the week. It works better for his schedule. Then he should have set up his original schedule to have it due on Friday. Glad it worked out okay, but I hope he thinks before he pulls this again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Glad it all worked out. In a college course, a teacher moving the due date of an assignment in this manner would be a no go and grounds for grade challenging for the course unless the entire class agreed to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckens Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Duckens said: Methinks the teacher wants to grade the papers over the weekend rather than Monday night. planner says: His response was that he changed the due date because they finished the story early and he would rather grade papers over the weekend than during the week. It works better for his schedule. Gah! I told you so. What a tool! I hope the rest of the school year goes better for your daughter. At this point, the only good lesson from this is, "Sometimes you have a teacher that puts his impulsive wants before his integrity." ETA: If you were snarky (like I am), you'd tell him, "This is why people HOMESCHOOL!!!" Hopefully you are more gracious (and wiser) than I am in these kinds of circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planner Posted September 14, 2013 Author Share Posted September 14, 2013 Gah! I told you so. What a tool! I hope the rest of the school year goes better for your daughter. At this point, the only good lesson from this is, "Sometimes you have a teacher that puts his impulsive wants before his integrity." ETA: If you were snarky (like I am), you'd tell him, "This is why people HOMESCHOOL!!!" Hopefully you are more gracious (and wiser) than I am in these kinds of circumstances. Somehow I missed your response. You get the gold star! From what I've heard from other parents, it won't go better. It's just the way he is. He loaded the kids up with homework on Rose Hashanah and about 1/3 of the kids in the class are Jewish. I thought that was so rude. My daughter did schoolwork for 5 hours on her day off. I'm tempted to pull her but she really wants to stay at her school and my son requires so much attention that I can't imagine homeschooling both of them at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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