What would YOU do to fix schools (s/o private school)

[KrissiK]

It has nothing to do with whether I believe you or not. But comparing someone you disagree with to a Nazi makes you look so utterly ridiculous that I hope it doesn't come as a surprise when no one takes you seriously.

I don't think she was comparing you to them because she disagreed with you. I don't think she was comparing you to them at all. She was just mentioning others who shared the same viewpoint.

[mommaduck]

I am not sure all failing public schools can be fixed. As a former social worker, I know that if a child is not in a secure home environment, he or she will not succeed in school. Schools neither can nor should fix the home life of a child. I will put on flame retardant clothes here and suggest that it's an impossible ideal to believe that all children can be given the same opportunities. I know how hard I work at raising my children, and that devotion is not something anyone can legislate or buy with all the government programs in the world. Many parents became parents accidentally. Unlike me, and probably many of you, they did not spend years thinking about how best to raise children. They were poor. They were still children themselves. Before I had children, I had 30 years to do exactly what I wanted, so staying home and taking care of kids and subverting my needs to theirs wasn't as hard as it would have been if I had my kids when I was 20. As my mother is fond of saying, "Life isn't fair." Everyone does not start out at the same place in life, and some kids end up in better places than others. It's not fair. I agree. Life is not fair.

 

As to the question, though, I would eliminate as much corruption and bureaucratic junk as I could. I would decrease class size, and I would get rid of basal readers. I would get rid of "social studies" and have kids learn history.

 

I agree!

 

I like Sal Khan's model. Currently the variable in education is how much we learn, what's fixed is the time we have to learn it. That needs to be flipped!

 

Move back to a modified one room school house approach. Allow multiple ages and abilities in one room with a teacher/facilitator. Use students as mentors/tutors. Once a child masters a basic set of skills let them go whether they are 12 or 20.

 

In theory students will gain better mastery of subjects as they tutor skills they have mastered. The artificial social environment created by keeping a large group of same age students with one teacher will be replaced with a more realistic environment, kinda like what kids will encounter outside of school, where information an experience can flow up and down the age spectrum. I think this has the potential to correct a lot of the behavioral problems we currently see grouping large peer groups together.

 

This would require a major paradigm shift.

 

This is where I'm at. I don't think the system can be fixed. I do believe that it should be scratched and started over on a community level. Mastery and one room schoolhouse style (or even two room). My stepfather attended a one room school house and then a two room school house prior to highschool. We've lived in communities with one room school houses that were community based (no federal or state money...supported wholly by the families).

[Mergath]

I don't think she was comparing you to them because she disagreed with you. I don't think she was comparing you to them at all. She was just mentioning others who shared the same viewpoint.

 

:001_rolleyes:

 

Yes, just a completely unrelated comment that in no way was meant to associate the other poster (not me, btw, it does help to read the actual post in question) with Nazis, I'm sure.

 

Sort of like if I said, "Hey, you know who brings up Nazis in internet discussions?  Idiots.  Idiots also do that."  It doesn't mean I'm comparing her to an idiot.  Just mentioning other people with a similar viewpoint.

[Mergath]

While Hitler is never a place we want to go, I think her reference was purely historical and not pulling the Hitler card just because.

 

You must be new to the internets. ;)

[Luanne]

It has nothing to do with whether I believe you or not.  But comparing someone you disagree with to a Nazi makes you look so utterly ridiculous that I hope it doesn't come as a surprise when no one takes you seriously.

 

I think you are being to harsh here.  Maybe people don't take you seriously either.  Did you ever think of that?

[mommaduck]

More of a Sudbury meets Montessori approach.

 

K-8

1) Close all private and home schools.  Require all children to attend the same public schools with the same funding.

2) Standardize the curriculum to 2-3 choices per subject.

 

Do you home school?

[Mergath]

I think you are being to harsh here.  Maybe people don't take you seriously either.  Did you ever think of that?

 

When it comes to people who think Nazi comparisons are appropriate in discussions about public schooling, I don't particularly care, to be honest.

[mommaduck]

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adnazium.html

 

 

 

The Hitler Card

 

Alias:

• Argumentum ad Nazium
• Reductio ad Hitlerum

Type: Guilt by Association

[mommaduck]

Btw, I don't agree with Leav97, but I don't agree with throwing out blatant logical fallacies such as the Hitler card either. Perhaps her views are for different reasons. She has the right to her view and to share in the conversation. It is a conversation, not a love fest.

[Crimson Wife]

It has nothing to do with whether I believe you or not.  But comparing someone you disagree with to a Nazi makes you look so utterly ridiculous that I hope it doesn't come as a surprise when no one takes you seriously.

Totalitarian governments know that political indoctrination of schoolchildren is essential to squashing dissent. Can't have the people learning to think for themselves, KWIM?

[Crimson Wife]

Btw, I don't agree with Leav97, but I don't agree with throwing out blatant logical fallacies such as the Hitler card either. Perhaps her views are for different reasons. She has the right to her view and to share in the conversation. It is a conversation, not a love fest.

It is not a logical fallacy to point out who else agrees with her position. I never called her a Nazi or a Communist, which would be a logical fallacy as I have no idea what her political ideology is aside from her opposition to private and home education.

[Mergath]

Totalitarian governments know that political indoctrination of schoolchildren is essential to squashing dissent. Can't have the people learning to think for themselves, KWIM?

 

And the last time I checked, we don't have a totalitarian government.  Nor one that plans to commit genocide.  

[cathmom]

While I don't agree with closing all home and private schools, I do think it would be a lot fairer if all of the education funds in a state were divided per student and given to their schools, instead of rich districts having lots of money and poor districts barely having any.

[MomtoCandJ]

Get rid of over paid administrators

Group by ability

Better food

More recess time (and not one large chunk, have a few short periods of playtime)

Provide funding to those who want to educate their own children or for private school (provide receipts to prove the money was spent on educational materials, doesn't matter what curriculum though. If you want to use Abeka or some other Christian curriculum that's fine)

Some sort of accountability, some way to prove learning is taking place. Doesn't need to be a standardized test, especially for those with learning differences, but something to show improvement.

Get rid of school sports

Provide vocational training for those who don't want to go to college.

Special schools for kids with special needs, schools that cater to their needs.

Make parents more accountable for their child's behavior and learning.

Send disruptive students else where, not where though.

Real history and good literature

Foreign languages offered besides Spanish

[Mergath]

no, it's well-documented.  Hitler established a law that prohibited home education and private schools and it was never repealed, even though a lot of Nazi-era laws were.  she is not name-calling, she is referencing historical fact.  the most recent chaos with this:

 

http://hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/201308300.asp?src=slide&slide=Wunderlich_map_Aug_30_2013&pos=1

 

Nazis also created the Volkswagon.  Therefore, I guess we can all assume everyone who drives a VW is a Nazi.  Or will become a Nazi.  Or supports socio-nazi-fascist totalitarianism.  Or something.

[blondchen]

You know who agreed with that sentiment? The Nazis and the Soviets.

 

"Hey, you know who brings up Nazis in internet discussions?  Idiots.  Idiots also do that."  It doesn't mean I'm comparing her to an idiot.  Just mentioning other people with a similar viewpoint.

 

I can't resist pointing out what is utterly obvious to me: The nature of these two comments is very different. In the first, CrimsonWife was simply saying that the Nazis and Soviets AGREED with one statement made by Leav97, which is a historical fact, and germane to the discussion on educational methods. She did not say that Leav97 is a Nazi or a Soviet because she holds that one view in common with them. On the other hand, Mergath said that people who bring up Nazis in internet discussions (a category which includes CrimsonWife, of course) are idiots, and THAT is a character attack...calling someone a name. BIG difference. 

 

No, no.  I didn't call her an idiot.  Just mentioned people who have the same viewpoint.  Apparently it's completely different.

Yes, it IS completely different. You attacked her character by calling her a name (indirectly, yes, but you did it).

 

Totalitarian governments know that political indoctrination of schoolchildren is essential to squashing dissent. Can't have the people learning to think for themselves, KWIM?

I guess if she had used the generic term "totalitarian governments" instead of "Nazis and Soviets" the first time it would have made the difference? In any case, she didn't call anyone a Nazi. It takes a lot more than believing that all children should go to government schools to actually be a Nazi or to buy into their entire ideology, and no one has been accused of that, either directly or indirectly.

 

[kubiac]

Make teachers real professionals like doctors and lawyers.  Pay them better, make their training more like physician training where you intern for a time and then have to pass rigorous steps to get your license.  But then leave them the heck alone and treat them like professionals who know what they're doing.

 

From the book I'm reading right now, The Smartest Kids in the World and How They Got That Way, by Amanda Ripley, from a chapter on how the Finnish education trains teachers:

 

When she arrived at the University of Jyväskylä, Stara spent the first three years studying Finnish literature. She read intensely and wrote multiple twenty-page papers. She analyzed novels, poems, and short stories— something English trainee teachers do not generally do in the United States. At the same time, she took other required courses, including statistics. In her fourth year (out of six years of study), she began the teacher-training program. All Finnish teachers were required to get a master’s degree, which meant something very different than it did in the United States. For one full year of her master’s program, Stara got to train in one of the best public schools in the country. She had three teacher mentors there, and she watched their classes closely. When she taught her own classes, her mentors and fellow student teachers took notes. Afterward, she got feedback, some of it harsh, in much the way medical residents are critiqued in teaching hospitals. It was hard but exhilarating. She learned she needed to get better at motivating her students at the start of each lesson, before she did anything else. In time, she improved. When Stara wasn’t teaching or observing other teachers, she collaborated with her fellow student teachers to design lessons that integrated material from all their subjects, including history and art. Then they practiced teaching those lessons, pretending they were students. Like all Finnish teachers, Stara also had to do original research to get her degree, so she wrote a two-hundred-page thesis on the ways that teenagers’ spoken Finnish shaped their written Finnish.

 

The Finns decided that the only way to get serious about education was to select highly educated teachers, the best and brightest of each generation, and train them rigorously. So, that’s what they did. It was a radically obvious strategy that few countries have attempted...With the new, higher standards and more rigorous teacher training in place, Finland’s top-down, No-Child-Left-Behind-style mandates became unnecessary. More than that, they were a burden, preventing teachers and schools from reaching a higher level of excellence. So Finland began dismantling its most oppressive regulations, piece by piece, as if removing the scaffolding from a fine sculpture...The government abolished school inspections. It didn’t need them anymore. Now that teachers had been carefully chosen and trained, they were trusted to help develop a national core curriculum, to run their own classrooms, and to choose their own textbooks. They were trained the way teachers should be trained and treated the way teachers should be treated.

 

[wingedradical]

I would first realize that all children will not turn out the same no matter who their teachers are.

 

I would also recognize that parents, society and government are all responsible for the mess.

 

I must say, I'm impressed with the charter schools in my state (AZ). I would like to see every state have them.

 

Finally, although I love to learn and teach and in some ways, I wish the following was different, but I think we should recognize that not everyone is going to need everything we currently try to teach  him/her in high school but if you teach enough of the right things, they will be able to acquire other things if their circumstances change.

 

The early homeschoolers had it right about one thing - teach a child very few things but teach him/her how to learn. If you know how to learn, and are half-way intelligent, you can teach yourself the next level up in math in a very short time should you develop an interest or teach yourself art history in a couple of weeks.

 

I know. I dropped out of an inner-city school after my freshman year (it was 1968 and I'd been turning on, tuning in for a year and decided to drop out. /-: Stupid, I know, but I was one of those disadvantaged kids they talk about). Anyway, in 9th grade, I didn't take Algebra so I had only 8th grade math). I didn't take any science in 8th or 9th, so I only had 7th grade general science). The only courses I ever paid attention to were social studies and music, to be honest. But my mother had taught me to learn because she loved literature and poetry and I learned them and how to learn them from her when I was younger. So, when 2 years later, after my father's death, I decided I to stop being a hippie and become a nurse, I got myself a book to review math, took and GED, and passed it (I was always a good reader - I guessed right on a lot of science and GEDS were easier then than now). Then I got another book to teach me algebra on my own and got into nursing school on the strength of a special test the teacher was willing to give me. I graduated, second in my class (it would have been first except i had missed quite a bit due to a hospitalization). Then I became a  Christian and decided I wanted to be a missionary. I had never learned a language, though, so I started learning Spanish and also, went to Bible college and went to be a missionary. I've done all I wanted - plus taught two kids, going on three, though high school. The two who are graduated scored very well in ACT tests (didn't do SAT where we lived) and attended college. Though, for all practical purposes, their teacher only finished 9th grade. Which convinces me you really need to teach kids these things: how to read, how to write, how to research, how to do basic math and how to dream. When they get a dream, they will take what you've taught and run.

 

Admittedly, my husband was a math and physics major and held my had a lot the first time around.

 

[mommaduck]

could you provide your reference for us?  Because i am now looking at the book "The Underground History of American Education" (Gatto) and he has a reference confirming that Germany banned home education.  That Germany still bans home education is also well-documented in the above link.

 

Compulsory education was introduced to the U.S. LONG before Germany. Colonial Massachusetts did not permit home education, but would fine parents and remove children if they were not sent to school. Later, compulsory education was sought by former slaves in Tennessee to guarantee education for black children. Compulsory education in the U.S. did not start out as some great evil plan. There were those that actually did have well intentioned reasons, whether we agree with them or not. What it has become today is another whole ball of wax.

[MotherOfBoys]

We need to be able to get rid of teachers. We had one teacher that had criminal se**** conduct with a student and was sentenced to 15-30 years (we all know this was just one of many students this happened to) but ten teachers wrote letters saying "it wasn't that bad" and "he's changed" that we as a community came together to get fired. The board told us we couldn't because they would sue and we couldn't afford it much less afford the unemployment we would have to pay.

 

I don't agree with paying teachers more. Our teachers make as much or more than a doctor here once you factor in over head costs of the doctor.(malpractice insurance mostly and office costs). Most teachers are 6 figures before retirement and I live in Michigan (very poor and much crime).

 

Teachers do need more freedom to pick how they want to teach but should be told the main bullet points to teach. Just like we can't teach well if it's out of our style. I agree with one room school house type approach classrooms by skill level and not age. But they will pick curriculum with a budget and knowing that they will be fired with a two strikes and your out system.

 

I agree with no time limit to learn the material (age 18 or whatever), you shouldn't get to stop school till you master certain skills. We have a ton of well fare people that don't have basic skills, needed to live on there own, because they got to drop out of school.

 

Voucher system has worked here. Except the bus problem but I imagine big cities wouldn't have that problem and we manage.  

[Aspasia]

We need to be able to get rid of teachers. We had one teacher that had criminal se**** conduct with a student and was sentenced to 15-30 years (we all know this was just one of many students this happened to) but ten teachers wrote letters saying "it wasn't that bad" and "he's changed" that we as a community came together to get fired. The board told us we couldn't because they would sue and we couldn't afford it much less afford the unemployment we would have to pay.

 

I don't agree with paying teachers more. Our teachers make as much or more than a doctor here once you factor in over head costs of the doctor.(malpractice insurance mostly and office costs). Most teachers are 6 figures before retirement and I live in Michigan (very poor and much crime).

 

Teachers do need more freedom to pick how they want to teach but should be told the main bullet points to teach. Just like we can't teach well if it's out of our style. I agree with one room school house type approach classrooms by skill level and not age. But they will pick curriculum with a budget and knowing that they will be fired with a two strikes and your out system.

 

I agree with no time limit to learn the material (age 18 or whatever), you shouldn't get to stop school till you master certain skills. We have a ton of well fare people that don't have basic skills, needed to live on there own, because they got to drop out of school.

 

Voucher system has worked here. Except the bus problem but I imagine big cities wouldn't have that problem and we manage.

Six figures for teachers??? I have never, EVER heard of a public school teacher earning six figures. And they certainly don't make as much as doctors, even with the overhead. That is quite a claim.

[delaney]

I'm sorry but when we are busy talking about changing schools for the better we see things like the word "irregardless" pop up. Makes me wonder.

 

Irregardless is a word commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795.^[1] Most dictionaries list it as "nonstandard" or "incorrect".

[Leav97]

Do you home school?

 

Yes

[Leav97]

Wow, that's hands down the most interest I've ever received in a post.  The question was how to fix public schools.  So long as people have a way to opt out of public schools, I don't think they will get fixed.  I doubt they would be fixed either way but, if rich people and parents that care don't have to send their kids to the crappy schools, those schools will never get better.

 

 

 

Reductio ad Hitlerum is a form of association fallacy.^[2][3] The argument is that a policy leads to – or is the same as – one advocated or implemented by Adolf Hitler or the Third Reich and so "proves" that the original policy is undesirable. - Wikipedia

 

Yes, you dropped the Nazi card.  Honestly, it's a lack of a logical argument and doesn't bother me.  If your only means of debate is an association fallacy, you've already lost the debate.  From what I remember of the whole German homeschooling thing, it was illegal before the Nazi's took power.  But, I'm not German.

[regentrude]

no, it's well-documented.  Hitler established a law that prohibited home education and private schools and it was never repealed, even though a lot of Nazi-era laws were.

 

Compulsory schooling in parts of Germany  (there was no unified country until 1871) dates back to the 18th century.

Compulsory schooling for the country of Germany is written into the Weimar constitution from 1919 and predates Hitler.

 

[regentrude]

I was just about to mention that it was the Nazis who first banned home education and private schools.  I believe Germany still hasn't been enlightened on that one, considering the Romeike's recent troubles..

 

1. Your remark is offensive. Just because a democratic country chooses to give itself laws that do not agree with your views, it is not "not enlightened".

2. Your statement is factually incorrect:

a.) the banning of home education goes back to the Weimar constitution from 1919.

b.) there are private schools in Germany

[AndyJoy]

I'm sorry but when we are busy talking about changing schools for the better we see things like the word "irregardless" pop up. Makes me wonder.

 

Irregardless is a word commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795.^[1] Most dictionaries list it as "nonstandard" or "incorrect".

What does it make you wonder? Surely you aren't suggesting that one must be grammatically above reproach in order to contribute meaningfully to a discussion of fixing public schools. I wonder why anyone would bother highlighting someone else's mistake in such a way.

[KrissiK]

Compulsory education was introduced to the U.S. LONG before Germany. Colonial Massachusetts did not permit home education, but would fine parents and remove children if they were not sent to school. Later, compulsory education was sought by former slaves in Tennessee to guarantee education for black children. Compulsory education in the U.S. did not start out as some great evil plan. There were those that actually did have well intentioned reasons, whether we agree with them or not. What it has become today is another whole ball of wax.

I just looked this up. Children were required to learn to read and write, but that was all that was compulsory. In 1647 a law was passed that towns must provide public education, but it wasn't until the middle of the 19th century that children could attend for free and later than that was it made compulsory. I could not find where home education was not permitted. www.massmoments.org.moment.cfm?mid=113

[mommaduck]

I just looked this up. Children were required to learn to read and write, but that was all that was compulsory. In 1647 a law was passed that towns must provide public education, but it wasn't until the middle of the 19th century that children could attend for free and later than that was it made compulsory. I could not find where home education was not permitted. www.massmoments.org.moment.cfm?mid=113

 

Sources vary. One states that children actually were removed and placed with other families over the issue as early as the colonial days. Another states that it was actually written into law in 1852. Neither negates the other.

[KrissiK]

Sources vary. One states that children actually were removed and placed with other families over the issue as early as the colonial days. Another states that it was actually written into law in 1852. Neither negates the other.

Can you please direct me to the source that states children were removed from their homes forcibly because their parents did not put them in public schools per state law. I am very curious about this.

[Spy Car]

I think this has already been proven wrong on the boards at least twice recently.

 

The HSLDA has adopted Hitler's tactic of the "Big Lie."

 

Tell a colossal untruth, and repeat it enough times, and simple-mined people will believe it.

 

...in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.

—Adolf Hitler , Mein Kampf,

[delaney]

What does it make you wonder? Surely you aren't suggesting that one must be grammatically above reproach in order to contribute meaningfully to a discussion of fixing public schools. I wonder why anyone would bother highlighting someone else's mistake in such a way.

 

It is not about grammar. It is not a real word. It sounds odd to use a word that doesn't exist in a debate about what can be done to make public schools better. Better instruction in English class would be my first suggestion. Grossly misused phrases like  "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less" is another biggie. Excuse me for finding it odd and saying so aloud on this board. Perhaps I enlightened a few people who unknowingly have been sounding less than educated by using a non-existent word. Whatever

[AndyJoy]

It is not about grammar. It is not a real word. It sounds odd to use a word that doesn't exist in a debate about what can be done to make public schools better. Better instruction in English class would be my first suggestion. Grossly misused phrases like  "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less" is another biggie. Excuse me for finding it odd and saying so aloud on this board. Perhaps I enlightened a few people who unknowingly have been sounding less than educated by using a non-existent word. Whatever

Your tone came across to me less as, "See, public school is so bad that many people (including PS graduates) think 'irregardless' is a word," and more as, "Ha! You think public school is bad but even you use non-existent words!"  It can be embarrassing to have one's mistakes pointed out in this way.  I see similar errors all the time on this board.  I see them even more frequently on Facebook and in emails from acquaintances or even businesses.  Maybe you truly find it odd, but I don't.  Such errors are far too common.  Google "commonly misused words" and you will see that irregardless makes it on many of these lists.  I just find it tacky to point it out publicly in that way.  Send a gentle PM if you must.  I actually did this once because of an error that I thought would embarrass the poster if someone else noticed it and chose to comment.  Or start a new "pet peeves" thread.  I know one reason I'm glad I don't live with my parents anymore is that at 30+ years old I don't have to suffer through daily pronunciation/grammar/spelling corrections from my English-teacher mom.  I do, however, have to put up with her bemoaning the errors of other people she knows.  Fortunately she doesn't critique my hurriedly-written informal postings on an online message board.

[My3girls]

Return discipline to school, allow children to fail, group kids by abilities... Parents are what have ruined the public school systems. As a whole children are being raised as lazy, entitled, and undisciplined in this country at home and at school. The home schooling movement is comprised of the parents that are trying to reverse this epidemic. For years and years, homeschoolers have been the minority and have been primarily religion based. In recent years, homeschoolers have grown in number as a result of parents frustration with their schooling options. As families continue to leave the system in droves, the system will be forced to change or slowly die. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[MIch elle]

 

Expecting the Best Yields Results in Massachusetts

 

[Violet Crown]

I've been reading a very interesting book, The Intellectual Life of the British Working Classes, and one thing that stands out is how the Edwardian public schools that were opened after the educational reform and compulsory education laws managed a near-100% literacy and arithmetical competency rate, despite class sizes of 50 or more mixed-age and -ability students, and home lives in which parents were not only generally unsupportive but often hostile to education. Parents saw reading, especially, as a waste of time for boys that would be going to work in the coal pit at 14.

[shawthorne44]

I think one problem with the suggestion of parents having direct control/input into schools is that parents come and parents go.  The admin will just have to treat each suggestion by the parents as new and innovative.  Assign a committee to it, and delay until those parents are gone because their kids have moved on to the next level.  Any parent with enough kids to stick around would be labeled a troublemaker.  For the last 10-ish years that my dad worked, he had what we called Musical Managers.  None lasted longer than 1.5 years.  None was around for long enough to have any impact.  Dad just did his thing, kept his nose clean and nodded his head when his boss talked about long-term changes.  I can totally see admin doing the same thing. 

 

Although with vouchers, the parents have control, but it is indirect.  Parents will naturally group by what they want in a school and they will send their kids to that school.

 

I would love to see tracking, and more of it than when I was a kid.  I remember the middle of 3rd grade when we moved to Texas.  I literally did not learn anything for the rest of elementary, except for the dictionary pronunciation guide.  When they tested me I bombed that because I'd never been taught that, so they put me with the buzzards.  Then they would not consider moving me.  Tracking should be more like the English soccer leagues.  Some students moving up and some moving down every summer. 

 

I also don't like the idea that teachers can do whatever they want.  I would be OK with lots of freedom as long as certain things are being taught.  My entire grammar education was 1) early elementary nouns, verbs etc. 2) Diagramming in 10th grade which was very helpful 3) reading Strunk and White on my own in college.  I remember once in late high school asking a friend of mine in the honors English track on the a/an rule.

Speaking of which, the History textbooks should be taught completely even if they have to make them smaller.  I understand that there will be knowledge gaps.  But pre-programming large gaps into education is just nuts. 

[Guest Future Pixels]

The way I perceived what you meant is; "Children are not getting educated." If so is what you meant then you are definitely wrong.

 

Students learn even when they are not paying attention, a student does not have to be "All A's" grades or "10 in all classes" depending on how your school system does their grading system. The less than average students of today has shown to be as intelligent ( logic / problem-solving / knowledge ) as the slightly above/ above-average student ( not necessarily honors, or over-the-average student. ) of 25-30 years ago.

 

With that said they are still not exceeding in school, why? It has been shown that family life and/or life away from school can affect the grades and performance by a student. With all this said, school systems are not failing, in fact, they are doing just their job as they were meant to. Even though the less than average student isn't doing well, he is still learning whether he knows it or not.

[Haiku]

Cut the fluff, stop trying to be social workers, shorten the days, and focus on the basics.

[Haiku]

As a former social worker, I know that if a child is not in a secure home environment, he or she will not succeed in school. 

 

I am also a former social worker, as well as an adoptive mom of kids born overseas. I believe that although this is true in the US, it is not an absolute truth. Kids from insecure home environments do very well in school in my children's home countries, and it is because they actually value education. If the education is not guaranteed, no matter what, the kids take it more seriously.

[Crimson Wife]

Six figures for teachers??? I have never, EVER heard of a public school teacher earning six figures. And they certainly don't make as much as doctors, even with the overhead. That is quite a claim.

One district not that far from me has a starting salary for classroom teachers of $62k, a median of $92k, and a top salary of $117k. The sad thing is that the cost-of-living is so high here that the purchasing power is less than teachers making half of those figures in a normal COL area.

[Crimson Wife]

there are private schools in Germany

There are private schools TODAY, but were private schools legal under the Nazis or in Soviet-controlled East Germany during the Cold War era?

 

"Compulsory schooling" is not the same thing as forcing all students to attend government-run schools.

[MistyMountain]

Your tone came across to me less as, "See, public school is so bad that many people (including PS graduates) think 'irregardless' is a word," and more as, "Ha! You think public school is bad but even you use non-existent words!" It can be embarrassing to have one's mistakes pointed out in this way. I see similar errors all the time on this board. I see them even more frequently on Facebook and in emails from acquaintances or even businesses. Maybe you truly find it odd, but I don't. Such errors are far too common. Google "commonly misused words" and you will see that irregardless makes it on many of these lists. I just find it tacky to point it out publicly in that way. Send a gentle PM if you must. I actually did this once because of an error that I thought would embarrass the poster if someone else noticed it and chose to comment. Or start a new "pet peeves" thread. I know one reason I'm glad I don't live with my parents anymore is that at 30+ years old I don't have to suffer through daily pronunciation/grammar/spelling corrections from my English-teacher mom. I do, however, have to put up with her bemoaning the errors of other people she knows. Fortunately she doesn't critique my hurriedly-written informal postings on an online message board.

I agree. For some people grammar and writing are not their strong points and they make little errors especially on forums where they are writing fast and probably not proofreading. It isn't a big deal. A lot of us are working with kids who struggle in certain areas like spelling, learning to read, math facts etc. Would we want people to shame them for the areas they struggled in down the road? Some people can be brilliant but they are not good writers. We are talking about how a lot of people get missed in the US system. Obviously there are adults out there without adequate training in grammar and writing. Those examples show up on commonly misused words so a lot of people are making those mistakes. Pointing out someone's mistake for everyone to gawk at is not cool. I know I make a lot of mistakes in my writing but I am definitely not stupid.

[regentrude]

There are private schools TODAY, but were private schools legal under the Nazis or in Soviet-controlled East Germany during the Cold War era?

 

My response was to reefgazer's remark "I believe Germany still hasn't been enlightened on that one,"

I was not discussing Nazi times or socialist East Germany, since "still" refers precisely to TODAY.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Classes are separated by skill/ ability not age. I know the social aspects of this are huge(teasing/bullying). My DS would have been in the struggling class for reading/writing but the advanced for Math/history.  DD would have been opposite. No more then a 15 to 1 ratio for advanced students and a 10 to 1 ratio for struggling students.  PLUS I would make College free so that H.S., this way  students know they can go to college irregardless of finances.  It would give those who have the skill/ability/drive the chance to get a advanced education, so they would work harder in H.S.

[shawthorne44]

reading the previous post reminded me of what I would do for college reform.  Make community colleges free, but no Financial Aid to 4-year colleges until the last two years of college.  All the kids that party their way through their freshman year on my dime peeve me. 

[AuntPol]

I had my kids in public school, then homeschooled them, and now one is a public middle school and the other is in a charter high school. The one thing that I have noticed across the board is a lot of parents (even homeschooling parents) just don't value academics. I have tutored and subbed in a public school and taught classes in a homeschool co-op and I teach Sunday School . In both, a certain percentage of  kids come to class unprepared, unwilling to learn, unwilling to do homework (and parents tell me they don't have to do the homework because they have other priorities), and often with sour attitudes and treat adults with disrespect without any fear of consequences because their parents will excuse the behavior and blame the adults.

 

I also want to note that I only had ONE teacher that I thought was bad. The others were great. However, my children couldn't take full advantage of that teacher because the teachers had to teach the kids who had no interest in doing well and had parents who didn't care either. Those kids failed regardless of how dynamic and wonderful the teacher was and not matter what curriculum, etc.

 

I have not liked most administrators........

 

So my suggestions are:

1) PARENT your children.

2) Quit making excuses for your children

3) Value education yourself

4) Get rid of compulsory education -why blame teachers for those who don't want to learn not learning?

5) Group/Track kids by ability not age

6)  Don't keep behavioral problems in the school -I'm not talking the ADHD kids who just need more recess and movement but the kids who are knocking over bookcases, tearing up rooms, or disrupting classrooms

7) Vocational Tracks

8)  Have enough schools so that a gifted kid can go to the gifted magnet without worry about lottery, a STEM kid can go to STEM school for same reason. Especially since the majority of the people who attend the school (the Base population) can't or won't use the magnet opportunity.

 

 

[briansmama]

I'd love to see all schools become charter programs, with clearly defined unique goals for their program, so parents can choose a school based on it's unique strengths and methodology (Montessori, Waldorf, STEM, Gifted, Reggio, Classical, Liberal-Arts focused, Math Centered, Project-Based, Constructivist, IB, Cultural, Language-Immersion, etc). I'd also follow the Finnish model of only accepting the top students into teaching schools and give them full autonomy over their classrooms. No Common Core, NCLB, endless testing/quizzes.

 

Formal education wouldn't start until age 7.

[eloquacious]

4. just curious, are there any religious private schools in Germany?

Yes, there are. I couldn't give you any statistics, only personal experience. There is a Protestant private school in my birth town, for instance.

[regentrude]

4.  just curious, are there any religious private schools in Germany?

 

Yes.

ETA: Looked up statistics:

475,000 students were enrolled in religious schools in 2011. About 300,000 attend catholic schools, the rest mainstream protestant (Lutheran is prevalent) schools, about 10% so-called free christian churches (not catholic and not Lutheran.)

 

They are extremely popular with parents.