Would you take this child to see a professional? If so, where?

[ChristusG]

My 9 year old DD is my oldest child....so I'm not sure if I'm dealing with a quirky child and stubbornness, some OCD type behaviors, or if I'm dealing with issues that just need better discipline. I'm just going to list out some instances/things that stand out with her. I don't know if this is normal kid stuff that she'll grow out of, or if we need to look into seeing a professional.

 

1. Ever since she was a toddler, she's exhibited what I call "OCD like" behaviors. It's not the full blown freaking out, constant hand washing, fear of germs type stuff that you hear about. Some examples: As a toddler, she'd meticulously check her pacifier for hairs every time she put it into her mouth. At four years old, she went through a period of hoarding trash. She would pick up trash from on the ground and cry when we wouldn't let her keep it. She would stuff food wrappers into her toddler desk to save. This went on for a few months. She did go through a "germ period" when she was five or six. She wanted to wash her hands often even though we wouldn't let her do it all the time. Now, at 9 years old (and for the past few years) she has to have things just so. But it's not consistently the same things. My parents took her to Lowe's for one of their kids building clinics. They were building a car and my dad accidentally hit the nail in at a VERY SLIGHT angle. It was barely noticeable. She freaked out crying and sobbing for the next  hour. Another example....we were at Cracker Barrel with my extended family. My aunt's fiance saw my two DD's looking at Webkinz and he secretly purchased the ones they wanted. A few minutes later, outside, he gave them their Webkinz stuffed animals. When he was out of earshot, DD broke down crying because the animal's ear was "bent downwards". She had been wanting a different one....it was the identical Webkinz but a duplicate of it because it's ear was not bent. So he chose the "wrong one" to give to her. We talked and talked and talked to her. She just kept saying "it's bent! It's bent!" We couldn't make her see her selfishness or ungratefulness in the matter. My mom ended up going back and exchanging it for the "right" one. These are just a few examples of the quirks (OCD tendencies?) that she has. And it's like her "quirks" rotate. She went through a period when she was about 7 where we had to answer certain questions in certain ways. And if we were leaving, she would tell me goodbye literally about ten times. Those types of things have faded away though. Now, its more things like if we went somewhere fun that day and my 6 year old ran in and told her daddy what we did, my 9 year old would freak out crying because she wanted to be the one to tell it. She feels that she's entitled to all things good and my 6 year old isn't'. Ever. So many things have to be "just so" or she breaks down crying. Like major 2 year old fits.

 

 

2. She cannot be reasoned with. If she gets in one of her moods, we can't say anything to her because she turns everything around. We sort of walk on egg shells, not knowing what will set her off. She's convinced that NOTHING is her fault. If she gets in trouble, even if it was totally her fault, she blames someone else for the situation. Every time. She can't ever see that she has any blame in it even if it is completely obvious.

 

 

3. She is EXTREMELY selfish. Selfishness is not a part of our family. She does not see us being selfish, and she's been taught the complete opposite, but she is alarmingly selfish. She doesn't want anyone to touch her toys or things. If someone else gets something (namely her sister), she collapses into a fit if she didn't get it too. She freaks out if she thinks that her sister got the "bigger half" of something, even if they look exactly the same. Everything is a competition. When we split muffins, she always says that her sister has the side with more chocolate chips. This selfishness is a HUGE disruption in our family. It's a constant source of strife. It's like she's always looking to see the negative and everyone is out to slight her.

 

 

4. She complains ALL THE TIME. About everything. Definitely a glass is half empty type of person. Heck, it's more like the glass has fallen over, shattered, and the water is all over the floor type of person. My DH is a negative person too, but DD is ten times worse. It may just be because she is young, I'm not sure. But her gloomy attitude casts a shadow over our the family.

 

 

5. She's angry a lot. Yet she has nothing to be angry about. Her life is great. She is well loved. She's involved in activities. She has things that she enjoys. Yet she still seems to be angry so much. And she's only nine! There's no telling what's going to make her angry. Like I said, it's like walking on egg shells. Even my 6 year old says things like "just don't tell Sissy, I know she'll get mad."

 

 

I'm just confused about whether this is normal, quirky kid stuff that will phase out as she matures....or whether there's something more going on. The level of selfishness and jealousy is just startling. And most of the jealousy is directed at her 6 year old sister. And I never know what's a discipline issue and what's not. The Webkinz issue had me stumped. On one hand, I feel like she was being selfish and ungrateful when my aunt's fiance was being very generous to her. On the other hand, I'd feel really bad it it's something inside that's "compelling" her to need to ear the "right" way."

 

 

Any advice? Comments?

[MomatHWTK]

Rigidity in thinking can be a "symptom" of various things so it wouldn't hurt to find out.  At worst, you may learn of some resources or coping skills for you and your DD. 

[AK_Mom4]

I think you take them to a professional when they are making their own life miserable or they are making everyone around them miserable. She sort of sounds like an anxious kid, which certainly would make her unhappy and unpleasant to be around. But there could be other things at play.

 

I would probably look for a developmental pediatrician because we had good luck with one for one of my kids. Some testing might well be in order - we found it helpful to know what we were dealing with (rather than edging around hoping the kid would not get mad All the time).

 

ETA: developmental pediatrician doesn't automatically means drugs either. Ours was very helpful ordering the right tests and helping us get on the right track with some lifestyle and diet changes that really helped (like homeschooling!)

[Parrothead]

She sounds like an intense perfectionist with oldest child syndrome. Just like I was at that age. Although in my mind I did share a bit better. My sib might disagree though.

 

Clean diet

Lots of sleep

Maybe a child psychologist to help with the most intense feelings.

[MusicMama]

That sounds a lot like my DS, but on a much, much bigger scale.  He always takes the negative approach, like he is actively trying to find something wrong.  I can never, ever ask him if he had fun, or if he enjoyed something, because the answer will always be no.  I have to phrase it as what did you like best?  Then he might be able to come up with something positive.  I would take her to be evaluated simply beause it doesn't sound like she is happy, and it sound like she is making it very diffficult for other members of the family to be happy around her.  I would search for options other than drugs, and look into coping skills and ways of thinking.   :grouphug:

[Alessandra]

I would second the developmental pediatrician, especially if you go to one who irks in a hospital setting. Developmental pediatricians have eyes for the whole child, no just one aspect. In a hospital setting, your doctor can call upon other specialists, and they will work as a team. Look for a hospital with building/group dedicated to child development.

[Um_2_4]

I would take her in for an evaluation. DS3 already displays some of the "rigidity of thinking". And DHs family has big history of OCD, so I am thinking ahead of how to face this. Also you might want to look at OCPD (different than OCD).

I know one person (adult though) with OCPD and some supplements have helped them (not enough yet, but definitely improved quality of life for their family).

[SadieMarie]

We have found a child psychologist to be extremely helpful. It has been helpful to dd with her anxiety and to me with parenting her. I would also think getting on top of it before adolescence might be really valuable for both of you. Good luck.

[Guest submarines]

She sounds like an intense perfectionist with oldest child syndrome. Just like I was at that age. Although in my mind I did share a bit better. My sib might disagree though.

 

Clean diet

Lots of sleep

Maybe a child psychologist to help with the most intense feelings.

ITA. Might be some anxiety in the mix as well (which goes hand in hand with intense perfectionism.)

 

My oldest is like this.

 

When she was 9 we cut gluten out of her diet and her intensity lessened substantially. Now at 11 she still feels those intense emotions over seemingly trivial things (that feel so BIG to her), but she's coping just so much better.

 

I think maturing, conversations, reading and discussing books from this series http://www.amazon.com/What-When-Brain-Stuck-What-/dp/1591478057/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375394514&sr=8-1&keywords=what+to+do+when+my+brain+gets+stuck, better sleep, being GF and her being incredibly self-aware are all helping.

 

PM me if you want to talk about it. Your DD sounds very much like mine.

[magnificent_baby]

We are dealing with the same issues on #2, #4 and #5 on your list, as well as anxiety and very intense feelings. Same age. 

 

Good luck, it's hard and you are not alone.  :grouphug:

[Jilly]

She sounds very similar to my oldest son when he was that age. I would highly recommend talking to someone about it. For my son he had a mix of sensory issues and anxiety. He was very intense and it was not fun for him or for us. Now that he is older he has mellowed so much. I am not sure why that is exactly. I think maturity helped along with occupational therapy and learning coping strategies. 

 

[Pippen]

For diagnosis I would see a developmental pediatrician or pediatric neuropsychologist, depending on who is available in your area.

 

There's a great book to help you navigate through this process called What Your Explosive Child is Trying to Tell You.   

http://www.amazon.com/What-Your-Explosive-Child-Trying/dp/0618700811/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375396417&sr=8-1&keywords=what+your+explosive+child+is+trying+to+tell+you

 

Definitely pick up a copy of The Explosive Child by Ross Greene.  This book is focused more on finding strategies to deal with the challenging behaviors.  

 

You might want to do some reading up on Executive Function Disorder.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

If you are thinking a professional might be in order, then you should likely take your child to see one.  Most of the time, it can't hurt.  At the very least, having someone neutral to help you get through some intense feelings is helpful.

[*Lulu*]

Some of the things you listed remind me of issues we have had with our son who has Aspergers.

 

I think when you reach a point where you are stretching to say your child's behavior is low end of normal or when you have consistently asked yourself over a long period what you are missing with a child, evaluation is a good next step.

[Ravin]

I would get a psychiatric eval. Some of it might respond to meds, even more may improve with behavioral therapy/counseling. I know my DD has. For us the tipping point was fear she would harm herself (her fear). But she was younger. If now she was tantruming the way she did 2 years ago, and engaging in rigid and extreme thinking/reactions, that would send us to behavioral health even without the self harm and anxiety stuff.

[ChristusG]

Rigidity in thinking....that describes her to a tee! I've never heard that term before.

 

So a developmental pediatrician would be different than her regular pediatrician, right? I guess we'd probably have to go through her regular ped first though. We actually had her seeing a child psychologist when she was about 6 years old. But I didn't like the doctor's approach. She seemed to focus in on one particular behavior and overlooked the whole scenario. We kept attempting to explain the whole scenario to her, but for some reason she was honing in on one behavior. So we stopped going after only a few visits. That was when she was in the midst of her worst "OCD tendencies".

 

I'll definitely order The Explosive Child....I'd love some coping strategies on how to handle her behaviors! I never know whether to back off, remove her from the situation, discipline, etc.

 

I've looked into Asperger's but she doesn't fit really any of the guidelines.

 

But as far as how she acts.....no one would believe us if we told them. She's a perfect angel for her teachers at church, soccer coach, scout leaders, etc. She's very quiet.....won't say a word most of the time. But she smiles, participates, and enjoys all of it. Her teachers would be shocked to see how she acts when she's with us! So this rigidity in thinking is only at home. How can that be possible? I can say something to her and it will set her off and she will need something "just so"....however, I KNOW that if she was with an outside teacher or coach and that exact same scenario occurred, she would handle it with ease and have no reaction.

[mamatohaleybug]

^{She sounds SO MUCH like my DD. I'd recommend a developmental ped and/or a child psychiatrist (we did both). We've also done a complete neuropsychological eval twice. Very helpful for us, My DD is delightful most of the time now. Meds and counseling and tons of learning for our family have helped tremendously. Maturity has also helped some. I wasn't sure we were going to survive ages 5-8. After getting lots of help 9 and 10 have been pretty great. Hang in there!}

[*Lulu*]

I would hazard a guess that her less contained reactions when with you has to do with you being her "safe" people.

 

You love her, and she knows it. She can let it all hang out and you will still be there.

 

That is powerful knowledge.

 

It doesn't mean that the Jekyll and Hyde act doesn't make a parent want to scream though. (((Hugs)))

[Upward Journey]

 

But as far as how she acts.....no one would believe us if we told them. She's a perfect angel for her teachers at church, soccer coach, scout leaders, etc. She's very quiet.....won't say a word most of the time. But she smiles, participates, and enjoys all of it. Her teachers would be shocked to see how she acts when she's with us! So this rigidity in thinking is only at home. How can that be possible? I can say something to her and it will set her off and she will need something "just so"....however, I KNOW that if she was with an outside teacher or coach and that exact same scenario occurred, she would handle it with ease and have no reaction.

 

This was me as a child.  As an adult I realize that I have sensory issues, maybe mild Asperger's. As a child I could hold it together in public most of the time, but by the time I got home, I was spent.  I needed things to be just so when I was at home.  It was my safe place.  My world would have been chaos if I hadn't had some control over my surroundings.

[NicAnn]

I know it's kind of a joke around here, but have you looked into her diet? She sounds SO much like my 17 year old before we took out all food dyes, dairy, and gluten. I mean really.

 

If you can be sure it's not dietary, then I think seeing someone would be helpful. Behaviors that's she's exhibiting can often be solved by simple tweaks. I'm amazed at what can affect someone and how it presents in 100 ways.

[Cammie]

This was me as a child.  As an adult I realize that I have sensory issues, maybe mild Asperger's. As a child I could hold it together in public most of the time, but by the time I got home, I was spent.  I needed things to be just so when I was at home.  It was my safe place.  My world would have been chaos if I hadn't had some control over my surroundings.

 

I think this so beautifully phrases the issues from the eyes of the child.  It makes so much sense to me now that you have explained it this way - yes of course if the outside world is so taxing and stressful a child would need his or her home space to be super in conformity with what is peaceful and confortable to that child.  Thank you.

[OrganicAnn]

I would have her tested for a variety of things using the best pediatric pyschology/pyschiatrist in your area.  No use doing therapy if you don't know what you are working with.    I'd try to get them to check on things like autism, ADHD, OCD anything else that has behaviors that might overlap.   Part of the best thing you can do is to rule out things.   If you get a diagnosis that is "accurate" you will sudden have things click and have some "ah ha that is why..." moments.    Be prepared for results you don't expect.   Be prepared that maybe there is more than one thing going on or more than one plan of attack.   If the diagnosis doesn't make sense to you, push for more explanation or help understanding it.    

[lea1]

Our son has been diagnosed with OCD and he displays many of the same things you describe. He had an issue with throwing things away, would hoard wrappers, boxes and other trash in his little desk, went through a period where he had to say goodnight three times and I had to answer goodnight back and then he would say I love you and I would have to say it back also...the whole thing had to be repeated in the right order three times before he felt he could go to sleep. He also shows a lack of social understanding and will say things that shouldn't be said (no filter), including things that make him sound very selfish and ungrateful. He will also touch or tap things a certain number of times repetitively and if someone accidentally brushes him as they walk by he feels he has to touch them back and if he walked into a room through one door, he would go out of his way to walk back out through the same door. There are many of these types of behaviors that a person with OCD might display and they may only do some of them and not others.

 

We also suspect there is more going on with our ds, either ADD and/or possibly Asperger's, although he has a good imagination and likes to pretend, so maybe not, but I would bet he has ADD, which is actually very common for a child with OCD. We have him on a couple of supplements and he is doing much better right now but stress can make it worse and we just started school again so I am concerned that he may get worse again. From what I have read, OCD is something they will likely struggle with their entire lives so finding some help for them is critical. We ordered the book What to Do When Your Brain Gets Stuck: A Kid's Guide to Overcoming OCD (What-to-Do Guides for Kids) and I think it helped him more than just about anything, so far...that and a couple of supplements that he has been taking. That book really explains things so that kids can understand and relate and it really helped us understand it better also and be more understanding with him as he was trying to fight it.

[Joanne]

{{Hugs}}

Great advice in this thread. I just want to add one additional suggestion. Consider that whatever is happening is some sort of brain glitch - not a choice, not a character issue, not something she can control. Something inside her head takes situations and interacts with them in non standard ways.

 

You interpret the behavior using YOUR standard brain.

 

I hear your frustration. Know that she's probably frustrated, too, living with a brain that makes her act in ways that frustrate her family.

 

You will ALL get some relief when you find the right combination of help.

 

[Chris in VA]

Lots of excellent advice--just wanted to say what I so needed to hear with my challenging kids--

You are a good mother. You do not need to have all the answers. There is help, and you are wise just for asking for it.

And--you can do this. You can parent this child lovingly and in a way that is going to help.

Many hugs.

[goldberry]

Just to share a funny moment, my DD is also very negative and extremely emotional.

 

We had a blowup about her cleaning out her bookshelf.  When she dragged out the pile of books she wanted to send to the Goodwill, on the top was a book I got her when she was littler, "What To Do When You're Feeling Grumpy".  I held it up with a raised eyebrow.  She scowled at me for a moment, but couldn't maintain it and eventually we both busted out laughing...

 

Sorry, not much advice, except that to me your numbers 1 and 5 are the reasons I would see a professional with her.

[strange_girl]

Lots of excellent advice--just wanted to say what I so needed to hear with my challenging kids--

You are a good mother. You do not need to have all the answers. There is help, and you are wise just for asking for it.

And--you can do this. You can parent this child lovingly and in a way that is going to help.

Many hugs.

 

:iagree: totally. Well said. Good job!

[Ottakee]

I think an evaluation might help give you some ideas and direction.

 

Do you see a mood issue at all?  Like some depression?  The "walking on eggshells" thing is way too common with kids that have mood disorders.

[CupOCoffee]

#2-5 describe my DD to a tee!  I am *so* listening....

 

~coffee~

[TeacherZee]

This was me as a child.  As an adult I realize that I have sensory issues, maybe mild Asperger's. As a child I could hold it together in public most of the time, but by the time I got home, I was spent.  I needed things to be just so when I was at home.  It was my safe place.  My world would have been chaos if I hadn't had some control over my surroundings.

 

This. This is very good.

 

CG, have you read Quite by Susan Cain? Your daughter sounds like she creates structures to cope with her own head. I would second the suggestion of having her evaluated so that you and she can get coping strategies. I don't want anyone to come to age 28 crying in an empty office because it is all to much. You are a good mom. Also my cousin (mom of five pretty great kids, one grown an working, two in college and two teens) has a good way of dealing with the "she got more" debate. One person divides whatever is being divided, that person gets to choose last. Might not work with your daughter, but it might be worth a try.

[ktgrok]

Some of the things you listed remind me of issues we have had with our son who has Aspergers.

 

I think when you reach a point where you are stretching to say your child's behavior is low end of normal or when you have consistently asked yourself over a long period what you are missing with a child, evaluation is a good next step.

Neuropsychologist or Developmental Pediatrician, for sure.

 

And yes, reminds me SO much of my son with Aspergers. Getting a diagnosis helped me to understand he couldn't help it. He really and truly was not able to understand cause and effect at that point, to understand that behavior A would cause consequence B. ONce I admitted that it took SO much stress off of me, as I didn't have to keep trying to find a consequence that worked. He seemed selfish because he lacked the ability to put himself in someone else's place...it has to do with mirror neurons I believe. He DID mature and develop these things, but it was later. It's a developmental delay, and it comes eventually for most I think. But in the meantime if you hold them to the standards of other kids their age you make them sad and angry and confused and depressed because they can't help it. When my son was finally diagnosed he was 11, and he was diagnosed with ADHD (doesn't need meds), Sensory Processing Disorder (had gotten much better with age, was not worth treating), Aspergers, and the one that broke my heart, Moderate Depression. Yeah...my kid was depressed. And in kids it often manifests as anger rather than sadness.

 

Learning to accept who he was made all the difference. Instead of trying to make him feel giving or selfless, which wasn't possible right then, I taught him how to ACT selfless, so that he wouldn't offend others. We role played ALL THE TIME. Did a lot of those Goofus and Gallant cartoons in highlights and would use them as examples. Stuff like that. He is SO much better now, and happier.

 

Please seek help...I wish I hadn't waited so long.

[kbutton]

My son has Asperger's, and while he is not particularly OCD, though he has lots of issues over sensory stuff, acts out at home once he can let down his hair, etc. However, I know a family whose son is extremely OCD (anxiety types of things, doesn't want to be away from his mom, also). In his case, he has PANS/PANDAS. He never "had" strep that they know of, but his body mounted a reaction to strep that has intensified (or perhaps triggered) his OCD. Apparently the strep/OCD connection is just one type of reaction people can have to viruses and bacteria. He also cannot have gluten (I am gluten sensitive too, and it my symptoms are almost entirely anxiety-based). They see a biomedical doctor of some kind who has done extensive testing to find all of this out.

 

Best wishes as you pursue answers. It can take a trial or two to find the right helper for your family, but you've gotten great suggestions.

[Alenee]

I would find either a developmental ped. or a children's naturopath. My dd was similar to yours before we found help. Her iron, seratonin, dopamine, and a few others were totally off. She used to be ungrateful, anxious, rude, selfish, NEVER admitted to doing anything wrong, angry... Now she's generally happy, outgoing, fearless, giving, kind, funny, etc. It took 9 years of that behavior before we found help through a naturopath. She takes a round of supplements based on her blood and urine labs. It changed her life! In fact, a few months ago dd and I were going rounds with eachother until I realized she'd been off her iron. Two days back on it and she was happy as a clam again. I can't say enough about the good her naturopath has done for her. :)

[Staceyshoe]

Is she unusually bright? If so and you feel a professional is necessary, I would suggest finding a professional who specializes in working with highly gifted children. Sometimes things that are rather typical within that population (including rigidity of thinking) can be overly pathologized by professionals who don't have a background working with similar kids. You would also be more likely to find someone with strategies that will be most effective.