How long on math in countries that are ahead of USA?

[Pen]

I know there are supposed to be things like even the language for numbers that make, for example, it easier to do math in Chinese and Japanese. But I am wondering how much time per day do students in places like Japan, Singapore, Germany, etc. spend working on math?

 

Does anyone know?

 

I was thinking maybe part of doing better at it is just spending more time on it.

[Arcadia]

In Singapore, all subjects take alot of time unofficially. I can only give you rough numbers for school since there are slight variations. For 1st to 6th (primary) is about 2hrs per day of class time. For 7th to 10th (secondary) is 2 class periods per day for elementary math, 9th to 10th grade additional math is 2 class period twice a week. For 11th-12th grade (junior college), pure/core math is 6hrs per week and further math is another 6hrs per week. All times are just class times. Students are expected to pre-read their textbooks and also spend time on homework and test prep. Quite a lot attend private math tuition.

 

Streaming takes place in primary 3 (3rd grade) and secondary two (8th grade). National exams take place at primary six (6th grade), secondary four (10th grade) and junior college 2nd year(12th grade). The International Baccalaureate runs from 7th to 12th grade. The polytechnic track is from 11th grade. For kindergarten (pre-K & K), the academic time would be equally distributed between english, math and a second language.

 

My boys are spending very little time on math compare with their cousins back home.

[snowbeltmom]

I know there are supposed to be things like even the language for numbers that make, for example, it easier to do math in Chinese and Japanese. But I am wondering how much time per day do students in places like Japan, Singapore, Germany, etc. spend working on math?

 

Does anyone know?

 

I was thinking maybe part of doing better at it is just spending more time on it.

 

I think the main reason the students in Singapore out-perform students in the US is because even at the elementary level, the Singapore students have mathematicians teaching math. Even if US students spent as much time on math per day, without competent teachers, the results would not be on par with those from Singapore.

 

I remember reading a study a few years ago that was paid for by the US Department of Education. Singapore's elementary program was piloted in various schools across the country. However, the test scores in the US were still not on par with those from Singapore even those all students were using the same curriculum. The studied concluded that the discrepancy for the scores could be attributed to the fact that the teachers at the elementary level in the US did not have the math background to effectively teach math using the Singapore curriculum.

[Arcadia]

I think the main reason the students in Singapore out-perform students in the US is because even at the elementary level, the Singapore students have mathematicians teaching math.

 

That is probably an urban myth LOL

Singapore math teachers from pre-k to 6th grade are general education teachers who are very unlikely to be mathematicians. From 7th-12th grade, the teachers could be mathematicians, scientists or engineers who did a postgrad in education. My best math teachers were former engineers especially when it comes to Calculus. We (my class) asked our physics tutor for math advice for topics like De Moivre theorem, Fourier transform, Laplace transform.

[rdj2027]

When I went to school in Germany way back in the dark ages in the 80ies, we had 5 45min periods of math per week in grade 5 and 6, and 4 45 min in grades 7 through 13. Homework took me anywhere from 30 minutes to hours, depending on how well I understood the material. In the upper classes it wasn't unusual to only have 1 to 3 problems for homework (which I dreaded because if we only had one problem, there was a reason for it). Our oldest is currently in 11th grade in Germany and also has 4 45min periods a week and again, homework depends on how well he understands the material. Integrals came harder to both of us than most other topics. I lack 3D vision so geometry had its tricky parts.

[snowbeltmom]

That is probably an urban myth LOL

I couldn't find the article I read a few years ago, but I found this that illustrates the difference even if the teachers aren't mathematicians.

http://www.archwayveritas.org/images/Department%20of%20Education.pdf

 

Teachers

Singapore teachers must pass a rigorous entrance exam to be accepted to education school, which they

are paid to attend; U.S. teachers most frequently pass the PRAXIS I and PRAXIS II elementary teacher

exams, which are no harder than the Singapore grade 6 exam.

Singapore targets acceptance to education school from the top third of its graduates by using a rigorous exam as

part of the screening process. Singapore’s primary education teachers typically have only two years of a college

education, but during this period they take 12 semester hours of mathematics pedagogy courses covering the

content and teaching of all themajor topics in the Singapore framework.

U.S. elementary teachers are among the poorest performers of all college students in mathematics, as

measured by their SAT scores, which are significantly below the SAT scores of the average college graduate

(Gitomer, Latham, and Ziomek, 1999). Education majors take less mathematics than the typical college graduate,

6.3 credit hours compared with 8.3 credit hours(NCES, 2002). They are able to start with lowmathematicsscores

and take few courses to improve their mathematics because of the low requirements of the PRAXIS I at the

beginning of education school and the PRAXIS II elementary examstaken for state licensing.

The most common exams that U.S. teachers have to pass are the PRAXIS I to graduate from education

school and the PRAXIS II to obtain a state license. As the typical PRAXIS I questions illustrate, the PRAXIS

elementary teacher mathematics questions are all multiple-choice questions, which rarely require examinees to do

more than solve one-step, straightforward applications of a definition or concept (see Table 3). Contrast thesequestions with three illustrative questions at the easy or moderate level from Singapore’s Primary School Leaving

Exam at grade 6 (see Exhibit 3). The Singapore Ministry of Education designated easy questions as ones that all

students would be expected to answer correctly and moderate questions as ones that average students would be

expected to answer correctly. The Singapore questions require students to undertake multiple step solutions and

demonstrate an understanding of concepts in nonroutine situations. Toughening the assessments that elementary

teachers pass is one of the surest way to obtain teachers who understand coremathematicsideas.

[crazyforlatin]

But then what about non-mathematicians homeschooling kids using SM? What makes us different from U.S. teachers using SM?

[PachiSusan]

But then what about non-mathematicians homeschooling kids using SM? What makes us different from U.S. teachers using SM?

 

 

More motivation?

[Penelope]

But then what about non-mathematicians homeschooling kids using SM? What makes us different from U.S. teachers using SM?

 

Maybe some of us aren't different.

 

Since homeschoolers don't take the same tests, we aren't going to know.

 

That's why sometimes I think all the agonizing and debating over which elementary math program to use misses a bit of the point. It's not only about the program, it's also the teaching.

 

We can't see exactly what the differences in teaching are in Singapore, but there is an interesting book that compares approaches to mathematic in classrooms in the U.S., Germany, and Japan. It's called The Teaching Gap. I highly recommend it.

 

I had thought that elementary math teachers in Asian countries are not necessarily mathematicians. Maybe it's the upper school teachers that are?

[regentrude]

In Germany, students generally spend less time in school than in the US - elementary school gets out between 11 and 12:30am. It is just done more effectively.

In 4th and 6th grades, my kids had 4 periods of math per week, each 45 minutes long. They had daily math homework, I'd say typically 15 minutes, sometimes 30. (In German schools, kids do not have one hour of each subject each day, but have different schedules for every day of the week. In 6th grade, they study 11 subjects in parallel.)

 

The big difference is that teachers are better trained and more proficient in math themselves, and that the curricula used in school teach to mastery instead of using a spiral manner that teaches the same topics over.and.over.and.over again until everybdy is sick of three years of fractions.

[stripe]

Here's an interesting position paper from India

http://www.ncert.nic.in/new_ncert/ncert/rightside/links/pdf/focus_group/math.pdf

[Arcadia]

But then what about non-mathematicians homeschooling kids using SM? What makes us different from U.S. teachers using SM?

 

 

Classroom management. You can invite a Singapore math teacher to teach for a year or two in a US school and that teacher might end up in tears.

Parents and teachers expectations are also much higher than here. My kids are considered accelerated by their public school but would have been average in Singapore.

Homeschoolers can discipline their own kids; push/nag/bribe their kids to do their math work until they understand. Find help if needed for their kids. US teachers using SM do not have that luxury. There is a nearby private Chinese immersion school using SM. The school has it easy as parents are on top of their kids schooling.

[Jean in Newcastle]

In Japan, as Arcadia said about Singapore, the classroom management is so different. I remember how shocked I was the first time I taught in the U.S., after having taught in Japan, and a student told me "no"!

 

Also - in Japan most students go to supplementary math instruction at least a couple of times a week - either abacus study or something like Kumon.

[Arcadia]

Singapore teachers must pass a rigorous entrance exam to be accepted to education school, which they are paid to attend

 

They have to pass an interview round and an exam. When applying to be a teacher, the Ministry of Education (MOE) would look at the applicants General Paper (English) and Math results, before granting an interview. I do not know the acceptance rate but I have friends who were rejected.

My nephew is taking the Bachelor of Science (Education) currently under MOE scholarship. His older brother is taking the Postgrad Diploma in Education. There is only one education school in the whole country :) Singapore's medium of instruction is english.

Entry requirement #8 talks about selection. On the same page, it says engineers are recruited to teach math and physics. http://www.moe.gov.sg/careers/teach/faqs/

 

ETA:

Page 8 has the qualifications listed for consideration to teach math in secondary (7th-10th grade) schools.

http://home.sandiego.edu/~pmyers/singapore/Kaur.pdf

 

ETA:

This one compares math teacher training in 10 countries: China, Czech, England, Finland, Hungary, Ireland, Japan, Russia, Singapore, Ukraine.

 

ETA:

This one compares US, Japan and Germany. The table on page 14 worth thinking about.

http://www.csus.edu/ier/reports/math.pdf

[crazyforlatin]

 

 

Classroom management. You can invite a Singapore math teacher to teach for a year or two in a US school and that teacher might end up in tears.

Parents and teachers expectations are also much higher than here. My kids are considered accelerated by their public school but would have been average in Singapore.

Homeschoolers can discipline their own kids; push/nag/bribe their kids to do their math work until they understand. Find help if needed for their kids. US teachers using SM do not have that luxury. There is a nearby private Chinese immersion school using SM. The school has it easy as parents are on top of their kids schooling.

 

 

Sorry, can't bold with an iPad, but I wanted to highlight your fourth sentence above. I just had this similar conversation with DH about the level of math we are at with DD. I made a statement based on what I heard from a math tutor. AOPS Pre-A sounds advance for an elementary child (I remember your child is also using AOPS), but in Asian countries, I don't think it would be considered such. I wasn't raised there nor have I ever visited, but my impression from math tutors educated in China and Taiwan is that there is a low expectation of what children can do here.

[Arcadia]

Spam by leonhkbx reported. Direct copy of #10

[kiwi mum]

I am wondering how much time per day do students in places like Japan, Singapore, Germany, etc. spend working on math?

 

Does anyone know?

 

I was thinking maybe part of doing better at it is just spending more time on it.

"Spending more time on it" is not only dependant on "time per day". One other difference is days per year.

For example, in New Zealand children spend an extra 20 days per year in school that American kids. So from K-8 they have already had an extra 180 days (or full US school year). Continue that from grade 9-12 and there's another 80 days. The othe side effect of the longer school year (which also includes more breaks during the year) is there is less time over the summer (only 6 weeks break) to forget everything from the previous year.

[Arcadia]

AOPS Pre-A sounds advance for an elementary child, and I remember your child is also using this but in Asian countries, I don't think it would be considered such. I wasn't raised there nor have I ever visited, but my impression from math tutors educated in China and Taiwan is that there is a low expectation of what children can do here.

 

Being a foreigner, what I "see" is that in Asia, kids are meant to struggle unless they are gifted in all subjects. So a child gifted in math would still struggle for language arts. Their self esteem is based on grit and resilence. People would ask about how many hours of effort to get the first in standard.

Here, it seems the implementation of boostering a child's self esteem is a little warp. If minimal effort is required, a child is either "smart" or expectations are too low. An asian teacher would probably praised a child for effort but the grades would still reflect the skill. Another thing is that expectation of math for girls is lower here than for boys so it is a double whammy for girls. China and Taiwan expects the best from their girls as from their boys in terms of STEM subjects.

 

Some interesting articles regarding math abilities

Is Math a Gift? Beliefs that put females at risk

https://www.stanford.edu/dept/psychology/cgi-bin/drupalm/system/files/cdweckmathgift.pdf

Math is hard! The effect of gender priming on women's attitude

http://ambadylab.stanford.edu/pubs/2006Steele.pdf

Math skills suffer in US, study finds (NY times)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/10/education/10math.html?pagewanted=all

 

AoPS won't be considered advanced in Asia for a few reasons; kids are expected to rise to the challenge, parents who can help or math tutors are in abundance, foundation for math and english are meant to be solid by 1st and 2nd grade giving the child the ability to self-study math. A normal school kid would be reading very well by the end of first grade. That gives the child the edge of being able to read any math textbooks and supplements to self-teach.

Also textbooks in Singapore are bought by parents for all subjects when school closes for the academic year in November. Kids have the November/December holidays (6 weeks) to study next years school work using their textbooks and workbooks. The very diligent ones could complete the entire workbooks during the holidays. Then there is holiday homework for almost all subjects. It keeps the skills fresh and kids don't have the "summer holiday syndrome" often described in the states.

Imagine if a child here completes SM 3A & 3B textbooks and workbooks questions before the child starts 3rd grade. In Asia that would be normal enough for teachers not to mind. Here the public school teacher might panic if you tell her your kid is done with the assigned textbook and workbook for the year.

China, Taiwan and Singapore are densely populated (in the cities) competitve countries. Math talents abound and being a math olympiad winner is being held in as high a regard as a NBA player or sports olympics winner. Kids for the math olympiads are unofficially handpicked/selected at an early age. The whole culture is different.

I guess I just typed you a longer than expected reply. I started typing before midnight and finish after midnight, I need to improve my ipad typing speed :)

[8filltheheart]

We have friends that are of Asian descent, and while they are the sweetest family and kind to core, their philosophy toward their children is radically different from ours and definitely not one I care to replicate.

 

Their kids start doing a lot of academic work as toddlers/pre-schoolers. (They have given our youngest lots of preschool manipulatives. :) ) The older kids attend the best local schools available (private/governors, etc) and put in long academic hrs on work outside of school (as in not homework, but parent/tutor generated) and are expected to do academic work all summer.

 

The mother and I have had some interesting conversations. Her 5 yr old is probably currently ahead of my 7 yr old. (Her 5yr old definitely has prettier handwriting than my 7 yr old!) Her children are all on path to pursue 8+ yrs of college ed bc that is the family position on career aspirations. The kids are very serious students that put in long days with school work. Their future success is not in doubt. They are trained to succeed. I firmly believe that.

 

But, in truth, her older kids are not more advanced than my older kids academically and our kids are significantly more advanced in some areas. We do zero work during the summer (11 weeks typically) and my kids only do school work and other pursuits are self-driven and have nothing to do with dh and me.

 

I do see a huge difference in pressure to succeed and steering toward adulthood goals, though. We pretty much stay out of our kids decisions regarding their choices for career,etc. We also don't push our kids to be super-star students. We simply encourage them to be what they are realistically capable of achieving.

 

Wow....it is really difficult to express what I am thinking even though it is not really that difficult to see bc it really is a "visible" difference in view of parenting, parent/older teenager-young adult child relationship, and how academics is approached.

 

Anyway, in regard to OP, I don't think time is the difference. I think it is how math is thought about/taught and the educational view of its value over all. While we aren't academically focused in the manner of our friends, our kids know we value education and learning and expect them to do their best. It isn't that our views are actually different in goals, it is simply the path used to get there that is different.

[Laura Corin]

"Spending more time on it" is not only dependant on "time per day". One other difference is days per year.

For example, in New Zealand children spend an extra 20 days per year in school that American kids.

 

 

Yes: a UK school year is normally 39 weeks, so that's a whole extra year compared to the US norm. The exams that UK pupils take at 16 are very roughly equivalent to SAT subject tests. With those out the way, they move on to more specialised courses.

 

Not that UK education is that brilliant; just to show that there are other ways of adding in time.

 

Laura

[TracyP]

Finland is also a top country in mathematics. They don't start school until they are 7 and spend less hours in school than US kids. I believe they are released after lunch all the way through high school and spend about an hour on homework per day. There are many reasons and well educated teachers is a huge one. I think it could safely be said that time spent is not what is making the difference.

[Pen]

Finland is also a top country in mathematics. They don't start school until they are 7 and spend less hours in school than US kids. I believe they are released after lunch all the way through high school and spend about an hour on homework per day. There are many reasons and well educated teachers is a huge one. I think it could safely be said that time spent is not what is making the difference.

 

 

Do you know, besides well educated teachers, more about what is being done in Finland?

[Pen]

In Singapore, all subjects take alot of time unofficially. I can only give you rough numbers for school since there are slight variations. For 1st to 6th (primary) is about 2hrs per day of class time. For 7th to 10th (secondary) is 2 class periods per day for elementary math, 9th to 10th grade additional math is 2 class period twice a week. For 11th-12th grade (junior college), pure/core math is 6hrs per week and further math is another 6hrs per week. All times are just class times. Students are expected to pre-read their textbooks and also spend time on homework and test prep. Quite a lot attend private math tuition.

 

Streaming takes place in primary 3 (3rd grade) and secondary two (8th grade). National exams take place at primary six (6th grade), secondary four (10th grade) and junior college 2nd year(12th grade). The International Baccalaureate runs from 7th to 12th grade. The polytechnic track is from 11th grade. For kindergarten (pre-K & K), the academic time would be equally distributed between english, math and a second language.

 

My boys are spending very little time on math compare with their cousins back home.

 

 

From what you write it seems like perhaps there is not much time for other subjects than math, English, and another language?

 

With the two different systems to compare, what are you having your boys do? It seems like there might be some good mid point.

[TracyP]

Do you know, besides well educated teachers, more about what is being done in Finland?

 

There is a big emphasis on meeting students where they are and no mandatory testing (there is voluntary testing in 6th? grade that most participate in) until they are 16. The teachers have the freedom to teach each class and individual in the way that they feel best. IOW, the system trusts teachers. They have hired competent people and they trust them to teach. There also seems to be an assumption that most kids need help in certain areas and that help is given. They don't have to go through testing and outside consultation to reach some arbitrary marker to receive help, the teacher gives the child the support they need immediately. This is helped out by small class sizes and a parental/govt' system that ensures that when kids are ready to learn they are well fed and healthy.

[Mandy in TN]

I work at a Kumon center, so the parents I know may not be representative. My center has very, very few white/ anglo American kids who stay with the program long-term. For these American families, Kumon is often viewed as a short-term program with a goal to repair some deficit in mind. For the long-term families who are primarily Asian/ middle-Eastern/ Indian, Kumon is part of life. They understand it to provide the computation/ skill practice that seems to be lacking in their child's American classroom.

 

Some of the success that these children have is due to more time spent, but the real difference is culture and parental involvement. Culturally these children are habit trained to understand that putting forth genuine academic effort is valuable. Being well-rounded is nice. These kids come to Kumon in their baseball and karate uniforms, but they understand that achieving academically is more important. Then, on top of this, the parents are very involved. They know what their kids are studying. They know the textbook, the weekly topic, the teacher, the teacher's aide, etc. They know when tests are scheduled and make sure their child has studied. They talk about how when the kids move to middle school, grade 5 here, the American parents disappear.

 

I am sure that time spent on education established as habit has helped many of the students I know from Kumon stay ahead of their classmates, but it is really the culture and the family involvement that assures that so many of them do well academically even if they are attending an American school with a teacher who perhaps isn't as well prepared to teach mathematics as her counterpart in Asia.

Mandy

[Arcadia]

From what you write it seems like perhaps there is not much time for other subjects than math, English, and another language?

 

 

There is plenty of time for other subjects. For the primary school system (1st - 6th), school typically runs 7:30am to 1pm. Kids go home for lunch and there is a recess of 20mins. For 1st - 2nd grade there is no science classes. Focus is basically on the 3Rs for the first two years. The annual PE test is nationwide from 1st-12th grade. For the primary six national exams, English, Math, Science and 2nd language are the exam subjects and not passing the exams means repeating 6th grade.. Compulsory non-exam subjects are Music, Art, Social Studies (history and geography) in both languages, Home economics/Techical workshop. In case you are curious, the annual PE (physical fitness) test includes sit-ups, flex arm hang, standing broad jump, shuttle run, 2.4km run (1.49 miles). Kindergarten is optional and private run.

 

History, Geography and Literature are taken at 7th-10th grade levels (secondary school). I took 11 academic subjects for secondary school: English, Chinese, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Math, Additonal Math, History, Literature, Music Theory, Religious Knowledge. Compulsory non-academics were music, PE and Art. School day was 7:20am to 1:30pm and we go home for lunch. Passing the national exams at 10th grade with a certain minimum is required for promotion.

 

For junior college (11th-12th) we specialized. We have four core subjects of our choosing, and compulsory subjects are General Paper (English) and 2nd language. Our 2nd language is basically compulsory for 12 years of education. I took math, further math, chemistry and physics for my core subjects as I was aiming for engineering. Hubby took math, physics, biology and chemistry for his core subjects as he was aiming for medical school. School for us was from 7:30am to 4:30~5:30pm (one morning recess, one lunch). It is a minimum of 40hr week for kids interested in STEM. The long hours are because of the three hours per science subject per week of laboratory work. Each science subject (including computer science) is about 7.5hrs of class time - 3hrs lecture, 3hrs laboratory and 1.5hrs tutorial. Math is 3hrs lecture and 3hrs tutorial.

 

Bare in mind that the education policies for Singapore was formulated based on a small young nation with no natural resources and totally dependent on human capital. It is a trading and finance hub. As a nation it has to be very STEM and finance driven for survival. If a country is in debt or people can't find jobs, how is the government going to support the national orchestra, choir or art museums.

 

I think that classroom time is just not as optimized here as in Asia. It is possible to cover a lot more in the same time frame in Asia. Given the same 45mins time period in a public school, there is no sense of readiness that is prevalent in Asia. For example, when the math teacher walks into the classroom, math textbook, workbook, geometry/compass set are all on the ready waiting for teacher to start. Most times the books are flip to the correct page. Once the math class ended, books are put away and other books are taken out for the next class. The responsibility lies on the kid to be ready for class. You share if you forgot to bring your textbooks, and you make sure you have enough sharpened pencils for school each day. Teachers are actually maternal/paternal but in a firm manner rather than coddling. We have free remedial classes by the school teachers who stay back after school dismissal. However if a kid who is suppose to attend remedial fails to show up without reason, it becomes truancy. If a child manage their time properly, it is possible to have plenty of time for competitive sports, marching band and just being a kid.

[Pen]

Here's an interesting position paper from India

http://www.ncert.nic..._group/math.pdf

 

 

 

:iagree: Yes, it is very interesting! Thanks!

 

I am just starting to read all the links people have posted.

[Crimson Wife]

It's rather dated these days but a very interesting read, The Learning Gap: Why Our Schools are Failing and What We Can Learn for Japanese and Chinese Education. There was a schedule comparing time spent on academics/homework/"cram school" vs. things like athletics, media, chores, etc. for Asian children and American children that was pretty startling.

[Arcadia]

With regards to China, Japan and Singapore, there is also the sense of national pride at work for TIMSS results.

There was a research report on this but I can't find the link at the moment. It says that if the students taking the TIMSS/PISA have the nation's pride on their shoulders, they would have done better.

 

ETA:

Another perspective is that Shanghai, Tokyo and Singapore are mainly urbanized. Cost of housing is crazy high. There is not much house to clean and unlikely to have a yard to take care of.

[Pen]

There is a big emphasis on meeting students where they are and no mandatory testing (there is voluntary testing in 6th? grade that most participate in) until they are 16. The teachers have the freedom to teach each class and individual in the way that they feel best. IOW, the system trusts teachers. They have hired competent people and they trust them to teach. There also seems to be an assumption that most kids need help in certain areas and that help is given. They don't have to go through testing and outside consultation to reach some arbitrary marker to receive help, the teacher gives the child the support they need immediately. This is helped out by small class sizes and a parental/govt' system that ensures that when kids are ready to learn they are well fed and healthy.

 

 

In some ways that sounds like homeschool flexibility (with perhaps even less testing) in a school setting.

 

The food comment is interesting. I was in Finland very briefly and that makes me recall that a Finnish person I was staying with who was student age had a fish spread (from a tube) on bread sandwich thing daily for breakfast. It seemed like a good breakfast for a mix of carbohydrates and protein, and faster even than boxed cereal. They seemed to have that available in Sweden too, but the closest elsewhere that I've seen is canned sardines, which are slower and messier.

 

My son's PS, when he went, had free breakfast for all (teachers too), which assured some glucose in the system, certainly better than nothing for the many children in our area who otherwise might not have breakfast at all. But it tended to be high sugar items, like Captain Crunch.

[Pen]

There is plenty of time for other subjects. For the primary school system (1st - 6th), school typically runs 7:30am to 1pm. Kids go home for lunch and there is a recess of 20mins. For 1st - 2nd grade there is no science classes. Focus is basically on the 3Rs for the first two years. The annual PE test is nationwide from 1st-12th grade. For the primary six national exams, English, Math, Science and 2nd language are the exam subjects and not passing the exams means repeating 6th grade.. Compulsory non-exam subjects are Music, Art, Social Studies (history and geography) in both languages, Home economics/Techical workshop. In case you are curious, the annual PE (physical fitness) test includes sit-ups, flex arm hang, standing broad jump, shuttle run, 2.4km run (1.49 miles). Kindergarten is optional and private run.

 

History, Geography and Literature are taken at 7th-10th grade levels (secondary school). I took 11 academic subjects for secondary school: English, Chinese, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Math, Additonal Math, History, Literature, Music Theory, Religious Knowledge. Compulsory non-academics were music, PE and Art. School day was 7:20am to 1:30pm and we go home for lunch. Passing the national exams at 10th grade with a certain minimum is required for promotion.

 

For junior college (11th-12th) we specialized. We have four core subjects of our choosing, and compulsory subjects are General Paper (English) and 2nd language. Our 2nd language is basically compulsory for 12 years of education. I took math, further math, chemistry and physics for my core subjects as I was aiming for engineering. Hubby took math, physics, biology and chemistry for his core subjects as he was aiming for medical school. School for us was from 7:30am to 4:30~5:30pm (one morning recess, one lunch). It is a minimum of 40hr week for kids interested in STEM. The long hours are because of the three hours per science subject per week of laboratory work. Each science subject (including computer science) is about 7.5hrs of class time - 3hrs lecture, 3hrs laboratory and 1.5hrs tutorial. Math is 3hrs lecture and 3hrs tutorial.

 

Bare in mind that the education policies for Singapore was formulated based on a small young nation with no natural resources and totally dependent on human capital. It is a trading and finance hub. As a nation it has to be very STEM and finance driven for survival. If a country is in debt or people can't find jobs, how is the government going to support the national orchestra, choir or art museums.

 

I think that classroom time is just not as optimized here as in Asia. It is possible to cover a lot more in the same time frame in Asia. Given the same 45mins time period in a public school, there is no sense of readiness that is prevalent in Asia. For example, when the math teacher walks into the classroom, math textbook, workbook, geometry/compass set are all on the ready waiting for teacher to start. Most times the books are flip to the correct page. Once the math class ended, books are put away and other books are taken out for the next class. The responsibility lies on the kid to be ready for class. You share if you forgot to bring your textbooks, and you make sure you have enough sharpened pencils for school each day. Teachers are actually maternal/paternal but in a firm manner rather than coddling. We have free remedial classes by the school teachers who stay back after school dismissal. However if a kid who is suppose to attend remedial fails to show up without reason, it becomes truancy. If a child manage their time properly, it is possible to have plenty of time for competitive sports, marching band and just being a kid.

 

So was it good? It sounds in this description like it was perhaps quite excellent, both academically and also leaving time for being a kid. Not like what I sometimes read about Japan where students seem to be being too stressed and are having stress related illness very young.

[SnegurochkaL]

When I went to school in Russia (back in 80-90) we had math 6 times per week 45 min each lesson for elementary-middle school pupils. High school math was 5 times per week. Homework would take between 2 and 5 hours just for math to do, depending on the grade. Normally elementary kids would be out of school by 12:15p.m. High school kids will be done around 3 p.m unless you have extra activities to participate in.

 

Usually elementary school teachers would have a college degree in elementary education, middle-high school teachers would have an advance college degree( 5 years college) specializing in a specific field such as math and physics, chemistry, biology, foreign languages, PE etc. Private schools could have some teachers with doctoral degree or something equivalent to it.

[8filltheheart]

I work at a Kumon center, so the parents I know may not be representative. My center has very, very few white/ anglo American kids who stay with the program long-term. For these American families, Kumon is often viewed as a short-term program with a goal to repair some deficit in mind. For the long-term families who are primarily Asian/ middle-Eastern/ Indian, Kumon is part of life. They understand it to provide the computation/ skill practice that seems to be lacking in their child's American classroom.

 

Some of the success that these children have is due to more time spent, but the real difference is culture and parental involvement. Culturally these children are habit trained to understand that putting forth genuine academic effort is valuable. Being well-rounded is nice. These kids come to Kumon in their baseball and karate uniforms, but they understand that achieving academically is more important. Then, on top of this, the parents are very involved. They know what their kids are studying. They know the textbook, the weekly topic, the teacher, the teacher's aide, etc. They know when tests are scheduled and make sure their child has studied. They talk about how when the kids move to middle school, grade 5 here, the American parents disappear.

 

I am sure that time spent on education established as habit has helped many of the students I know from Kumon stay ahead of their classmates, but it is really the culture and the family involvement that assures that so many of them do well academically even if they are attending an American school with a teacher who perhaps isn't as well prepared to teach mathematics as her counterpart in Asia.

Mandy

 

 

While the family I was mentioning does not use Kumon, this attitude is very similar to what I see.

[JennyD]

I think that classroom time is just not as optimized here as in Asia. It is possible to cover a lot more in the same time frame in Asia. Given the same 45mins time period in a public school, there is no sense of readiness that is prevalent in Asia. For example, when the math teacher walks into the classroom, math textbook, workbook, geometry/compass set are all on the ready waiting for teacher to start. Most times the books are flip to the correct page. Once the math class ended, books are put away and other books are taken out for the next class. The responsibility lies on the kid to be ready for class. You share if you forgot to bring your textbooks, and you make sure you have enough sharpened pencils for school each day. Teachers are actually maternal/paternal but in a firm manner rather than coddling. We have free remedial classes by the school teachers who stay back after school dismissal. However if a kid who is suppose to attend remedial fails to show up without reason, it becomes truancy. If a child manage their time properly, it is possible to have plenty of time for competitive sports, marching band and just being a kid.

 

 

I know nothing about Singapore, but I taught for a while in a Japanese middle school and it looked nothing at all like this. Honestly, an average US middle school would look like the pinnacle of efficiency by comparison. The school day was quite long -- until 5pm -- but there were innumerable assemblies, substantial amounts of time spent in homeroom, lunch, recess, cleaning time, and the last hour or two was 'club time,' for sports, etc. None of this is 'wasted' time -- IMlimitedE, Japanese schools are very self-consciously as much about socializing children into Japanese culture as they are about academics -- but it also certainly was NOT an environment that would strike one as unusually efficient. (For that matter, the Japanese offices I worked in were pretty much the same way -- long hours, but a very relaxed work environment.)

 

The amount of time spent on math seemed to be about the same as in the US, but students gunning for competitive high schools all went straight to cram schools after regular school. The school year was longer, IIRC.

[Pen]

When I went to school in Russia (back in 80-90) we had math 6 times per week 45 min each lesson for elementary-middle school pupils. High school math was 5 times per week.

 

How many days per week was school?

 

 

 

Homework would take between 2 and 5 hours just for math to do, depending on the grade.

 

 

per week? or daily?

 

 

 

I read something about "Russian math" at one point that seemed to suggest that students worked together in a collaborative style--was that true?

[Arcadia]

So was it good? It sounds in this description like it was perhaps quite excellent, both academically and also leaving time for being a kid. Not like what I sometimes read about Japan where students seem to be being too stressed and are having stress related illness very young.

 

 

I am of the mentality that education is what you made of it. Public school in Singapore has the added advantage of no guns, no drugs and minimal bullying. Media has called Singapore schools a sterile environment. On the flip side, how is a child going to learn well in a public school that goes into lockdown often or where bullying is prevalent.

 

Stress can make or break a person. Suicide is an unfortunate consequence. It is hard to tell without student population statistics how high a percentage that is.

"The white paper also said that 1,029 students committed suicide in 2011, the first time that the number has surpassed 1,000 since research data started being kept in 1978.

Japan has one of the world’s highest suicide rates, according to the OECD." (from JapanToday)

 

This is from a 1996 research paper so the numbers might be off. (http://spice.stanford.edu/docs/142)

"Japanese students spend 240 days a year at school, 60 days more then their American counterparts.....

Japanese students devote approximately two hours per weekday to homework, and about three hours on Sunday. They spend an average of two hours per day watching television, half an hour listening to the radio, an hour reading casually, and less than half an hour in social relations with peers outside of school."

 

This page gives a rather detailed description of the japanese elementary school system. It is not as one-sided as portrayed in the media.

 

Honestly, an average US middle school would look like the pinnacle of efficiency by comparison.

The middle schools in my area are quite chaotic. It is too varied here even in the same county. You get the well-run schools and the schools that are a waste of time to attend.

 

ETA: my friends who grew up in Hokkaido have a more relaxed childhood than those who grew up in Tokyo. So it varies within Japan too.

Anyway, in regard to OP, I don't think time is the difference. I think it is how math is thought about/taught and the educational view of its value over all. While we aren't academically focused in the manner of our friends, our kids know we value education and learning and expect them to do their best. It isn't that our views are actually different in goals, it is simply the path used to get there that is different.

 

 

:iagree:

That is true for other subjects too. Given the same ability the ESLs who pick up the language well are the ones who put in the most effort.

[Lilaclady]

I think a common factor that I see is parental involvement and cultural expectations. I think the expectations here in the us are too low and kids excelling academically are not well celebrated. We put more money into building huge gyms then equipping science labs. Most kids here that I see doing well have their parents involved in what is going on. It is quite a sight but most US kids that I see winning math Olympiads and math prize etc, tend to be more first generation american Asian kids.

[Arcadia]

This is what I read about Finland's math

 

"Good results in the PISA studies are not necessarily equivalent to saying that mathematics education in a specific country is functioning the way it should. But the good results show that, in a relative way, the circumstances of that country could be interesting for other countries to consider, if they would like to improve their results in later studies of the PISA type.

 

 

 

The purpose of the PISA studies is related to the concept of literacy. The mathematics scale, specifically, deals with mathematical knowledge and skills necessary for coping in the world of today (“mathematical literacyâ€), and it differs from mathematical knowledge and skills as tested for instance in the Mathematical Olympiads....

 

 

 

It is fair to say that education is held in high esteem, both as a basis for national culture and as a basis for the economic security of the individual.....

 

 

 

Teaching is traditionally associated with a respected status in the local community, and it continues to be that way, even if nowadays more teachers than before leave the profession for other careers – possibly with higher pay." (

Source, bolded mine)

 

 

 

 

"Whatever it takes†is an attitude that drives not just Kirkkojarvi’s 30 teachers, but most of Finland’s 62,000 educators in 3,500 schools from Lapland to Turku—professionals selected from the top 10 percent of the nation’s graduates to earn a required master’s degree in education. Many schools are small enough so that teachers know every student. If one method fails, teachers consult with colleagues to try something else. They seem to relish the challenges. Nearly 30 percent of Finland’s children receive some kind of special help during their first nine years of school" (

Source, bolded mine)

 

 

 

 

 

Mathematics Teacher Training in Finland (27 page document written by George Malaty, University of Joensuu, Finland) - quite a lot of details

 

 

 

 

 

Problem Solving in Mathematics Education in Finland (5 page interesting article by Erkki Pehkonen, University of Helsinki, Finland)

 

 

[Pen]

I think a common factor that I see is parental involvement and cultural expectations. I think the expectations here in the us are too low and kids excelling academically are not well celebrated. ...

 

Worse than not celebrated in USA...often called names like "geek" or "brain" in a pejorative way, and bullied sometimes and so on. Unless the child also happens to be star quarterback on the Varsity football team, but that is rare, and even then the children seem to have to hide the intellectual ability side.

[jennynd]

I came from Taiwan, which ranked 4th for 4th grade math and 3rd or 2nd (can't remeber) for 8th grade math in last TIMSS

I can't remember what we did back when I was little so I went find my old elementary school website and check the class schedule

For 1st and 2nd grade, school are only 4 half day and only one full day school with 3 days 40 mins/day math

3rd, 4th grade , school are 2 half and 3 full days with 40 mins/day math for 5 days

5th, 6th grade school are 1 half and 4full days with 40 mins/day math for 5 days

 

So, I supposed, no, they do not do a lot math for elementary school.

 

 

[Arcadia]

I came from Taiwan, which ranked 4th for 4th grade math and 3rd or 2nd (can't remember) for 8th grade math in last TIMSS

......

So, I supposed, no, they do not do a lot math for elementary school.

 

 

The Taiwan math textbooks you posted in http://forums.welltr...ath-curriculum/ is actually nice compare to the public school textbook here. I can read traditional chinese so not an issue for me.

[stripe]

So was it good? It sounds in this description like it was perhaps quite excellent, both academically and also leaving time for being a kid. Not like what I sometimes read about Japan where students seem to be being too stressed and are having stress related illness very young.

 

But I think Japanese elementary schools are very interesting places; they are not high-stress like middle and high school. Which is not to say that the parents or kids aren't stressed about school or the child's future.

 

Another thing I heard recently in a report about immigrants to the US, a discussion between Ray Suarez and Claudia Kolker about her book, on the PBS Newshour, is that many times children of Asian immigrants are tutored in material before it is covered in school, so that school is a review. I thought this was an interesting idea to ponder the ramifications of.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2013/01/seven-skills-americans-can-learn-from-immigrants.html

[jennynd]

 

 

The Taiwan math textbooks you posted in http://forums.welltr...ath-curriculum/ is actually nice compare to the public school textbook here. I can read traditional chinese so not an issue for me.

 

 

I knew someone here can use it :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Google says that the Japanese school year is 243 days - as opposed to the US 180 days. And I know that all my Japanese friends had homework over their one month summer vacation.

[JennyD]

But I think Japanese elementary schools are very interesting places; they are not high-stress like middle and high school. Which is not to say that the parents or kids aren't stressed about school or the child's future.

 

 

Japanese elementary schools are really quite remarkable, and not at all what you'd expect if you just looked at middle and high school environments. There is a wonderful book, Educating Hearts and Minds, by Catherine Lewis, on the subject It's been a while since I read it but IIRC she emphasizes the relatively high tolerance for chaos and the substantial amount of authority given to children (children take turns leading the class and getting everyone to quiet down, etc).

 

IME the parents of the kids at the middle school where I taught were generally supportive of and quite deferential to the teachers, although not necessarily able to provide a lot of academic support -- it was a very rural area and lots of the dads were gone for long stretches deep-sea fishing. School teachers and administrators also promulgated all sorts of directives that I suspect many Americans, let alone homeschoolers, would find shockingly intrusive: "Please ensure that your child uses the toilet before coming to school in the morning," "All children must wear bicycle helmets whenever riding a bicycle," etc.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

School teachers and administrators also promulgated all sorts of directives that I suspect many Americans, let alone homeschoolers, would find shockingly intrusive: "Please ensure that your child uses the toilet before coming to school in the morning," "All children must wear bicycle helmets whenever riding a bicycle," etc.

 

Yes, I remember a friend who was grounded for a week - by her teacher - for not wearing her bicycle helmet. Neither she nor her parents saw anything strange about it or saw it as crossing a boundary. And this was in a big city.

 

Another friend had naturally curly hair (more rare among Japanese) and she had to wear her hair in tight braids so that her hair wouldn't look like it was breaking the "no perm" rule.

 

Japanese schools are highly tracked though. You take exams at the end of elementary school. Kids are separated them into the higher middle school and the lower. It is a very stressful time and former friendships in the neighborhood can be broken up when one child gets in the better school and another doesn't. This is because of the long-term cultural effects of the tracking. There is another exam at the end of junior high and again kids are separated into tracks with some going to the top schools and some not. Then there are exams for college. Many kids who don't get a good score the first time for college go to college prep "cram" schools so that they can try again. I knew personally of two different teens who committed suicide from not getting good exam scores. Once kids get into college,then the quest of knowledge tends to drop off because you're more or less (at least in the past) guaranteed a job depending on what college you are in. Cheating in college is wide-spread and no one I knew thought anything of it. They were very surprised that I actually studied in college.

[Arcadia]

Japanese schools are highly tracked though. You take exams at the end of elementary school. Kids are separated them into the higher middle school and the lower. It is a very stressful time and former friendships in the neighborhood can be broken up when one child gets in the better school and another doesn't. This is because of the long-term cultural effects of the tracking. There is another exam at the end of junior high and again kids are separated into tracks with some going to the top schools and some not.

 

It is the same way for Singapore. The secondary school and junior college that students go to are based on their results in the national exams. The student have to do very well to go to the "elite" schools.

If someone is applying for a government job in Singapore, the Ministry of Education can just supply the person's examination results to the recruiting agency. Saves me a lot of effort in filling up forms.

Competition continues at the university level though. People want to be on the Dean's list and to graduate with 1st class honours for Bachelor of Engineering.

[KittyKat]

In Russia we had math 45 mins a day, we went to school either 6 days a week or 5 days a week (varied by school year and "district"). Math homework took a good 2 hours in elementary school. The students were expected to know the basics upon entering school. There was a lot of emphasis on mental math. I moved to the US in the 5th grade and we were doing work in American school that I had done in Russian school in the 1st grade.

[SnegurochkaL]

How many days per week was school?

 

Sunday was the only day off:), but sometimes it didn't feel that way. In high school I could spend most of the Sunday preparing homework in advance such as math or essay writing because you wouldn't have time during the week to do it.

 

 

per week? or daily?

 

Per day, depending on a subject(algebra, geometry or calculus). Elementary grade student would spent about 2 hours to do math homework.

 

 

I read something about "Russian math" at one point that seemed to suggest that students worked together in a collaborative style--was that true?

 

What do you mean under a "collaborative style"? Can you explain, please?

[jennynd]

You take exams at the end of elementary school. Kids are separated them into the higher middle school and the lower. It is a very stressful time and former friendships in the neighborhood can be broken up when one child gets in the better school and another doesn't. This is because of the long-term cultural effects of the tracking. There is another exam at the end of junior high and again kids are separated into tracks with some going to the top schools and some not. Then there are exams for college. Many kids who don't get a good score the first time for college go to college prep "cram" schools so that they can try again. I knew personally of two different teens who committed suicide from not getting good exam scores.

 

 

I think this test pressure is true for most Asia country.

starting 2nd year in middle school. (8th grade) "everytime" we have a school wide test (3 times a school year) people get shuffle around a bit. So you have 1 high level class for girl and 1 for boy and may 5 classes for middle track and maybe 5 for low track. (I heard they moved away from it. ).. However, I see some US school does the grouping also to seperate kids by their ability. My DS school called it "teachable grouping" and he is just in elementary school. So i don't see that is that terrible.

 

We had to pass big city test to get to "good" high school. Some people right there have to take 2 times (my sister included). at this point there is high school track, 5 year technical school track annd 3 years technical track. Again, I heard Taiwan is moving away from the high school entry test. I have no idea what they do now.

 

 

Usually only the high school track get a shot for the national entry exam for college. That is when people studies day and night. I remeber averaged sleep 4-5 hours for the last year in my high school year. It was a lot pressure and it is true that every year there are poelp just can not take it and commit suicide. Now, the TIMSS do not test kids higher than 8th grade, and that is the 2nd year of middle school. and that will be before all the craziness starts. I don't think US sees the different because of the big test when you look at the TIMSS results . I will see US fall even further behind if they test kids in their senior year in high school