How long on math in countries that are ahead of USA?

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't think US sees the different because of the big test when you look at the TIMSS results . I will see US fall even further behind if they test kids in their senior year in high school

 

 

I wonder what the test results would be though if the Asian countries combined both the college prep and the technical track scores if they did test in the senior year.

[Arcadia]

I wonder what the test results would be though if the Asian countries combined both the college prep and the technical track scores if they did test in the senior year.

 

For Singapore, the kids in the technical track would still have very good test scores for math. Kids opt for the technical track because of either weak language skills and/or preferring more hands on learning. Opting for the technical track due to poor math ability/skills is not common. If a child is not certain of gaining admission to the university, the end point of the college prep track would be a A level certificate (similar to High School Diploma), while the technical track would end with a polytechnic diploma (similar to an associate degree). A polytechnic diploma in engineering would allow a very good student to enter into the 2nd year of Bachelor in Engineering for the local universities. Some overseas universities would grant a skip to the 3rd year of a Bachelor in Engineering programme.

The main "technical tracks" (13th grade onwards, three year duration) are engineering, business studies and nursing. There are others that I can't recall off hand. These tracks are all exams intensive and the students need to do well to apply to the universities as polytechnic graduates.

Just a note, the German polytechnic is different from the Singapore polytechnic. German polytechnic is after high school.

 

ETA:

Singapore education system structure diagram http://www3.moe.edu.sg/corporate/eduoverview/Overview_edulandscape.htm

[jennynd]

 

I wonder what the test results would be though if the Asian countries combined both the college prep and the technical track scores if they did test in the senior year.

 

 

 

They still need to prep for the test to get in those technical school.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Very interesting, Jenny.

[Pen]

For Singapore, the kids in the technical track would still have very good test scores for math. Kids opt for the technical track because of either weak language skills and/or preferring more hands on learning. Opting for the technical track due to poor math ability/skills is not common. If a child is not certain of gaining admission to the university, the end point of the college prep track would be a A level certificate (similar to High School Diploma), while the technical track would end with a polytechnic diploma (similar to an associate degree). A polytechnic diploma in engineering would allow a very good student to enter into the 2nd year of Bachelor in Engineering for the local universities. Some overseas universities would grant a skip to the 3rd year of a Bachelor in Engineering programme.

The main "technical tracks" (13th grade onwards, three year duration) are engineering, business studies and nursing. There are others that I can't recall off hand. These tracks are all exams intensive and the students need to do well to apply to the universities as polytechnic graduates.

Just a note, the German polytechnic is different from the Singapore polytechnic. German polytechnic is after high school.

 

ETA:

Singapore education system structure diagram http://www3.moe.edu....dulandscape.htm

 

 

Are children who are not on either college prep or technical track also stronger in math than USA counterparts?

[Pen]

Math is less than three hours a week here in K-5, and all math is in a full inclusion environment.

Pre-nclb, with leveled groups, 3 hrs a week was enough to cover the standard 13 chapters and grade level material. (strugglers saw a math specialist for additional tutoring). Post-nclb, with full inclusion, they are lucky to do 2 review chapters and 2 new. Most wealthy parents find a tutor or afterschool when they realize what the school is doing.

 

 

Where is here? And what is a full inclusion environment?

[Arcadia]

Are children who are not on either college prep or technical track also stronger in math than USA counterparts?

 

 

If they are on "vocational" track, they won't be covering as much mathematics. They would cover much more consumer and applied math than the algebra kind. The vocational track is helpful for children who are usually not as interested in book learning. For example, some of the tracks offered are culinary, hairdressing, cake decorating, tailoring, plumbing, electrician. The children who graduate from the vocational track are able to find jobs that could support a family of four comfortably. Those who are talented actually could earn very high wages, better than a university graduate. Most would apprentice and than open their own shop or freelance.

I have no statistics for the math skills of those on the vocational track. I would say that at grade 8th level, most would not have covered any algebra 1 so they would have failed that part of the math test. If you are talking about math ability, than it is really hard to tell since the children did not go onto the vocational track due to poor math ability. It used to be the high risk school dropouts that would go to the vocational track and made it good as a tradesmen (instead of being a dropout).

[Crimson Wife]

Where is here? And what is a full inclusion environment?

 

A full inclusion environment means that kids with learning disabilities are mainstreamed in the general ed classroom.

[stripe]

Japanese elementary schools are really quite remarkable, and not at all what you'd expect if you just looked at middle and high school environments. There is a wonderful book, Educating Hearts and Minds, by Catherine Lewis, on the subject It's been a while since I read it but IIRC she emphasizes the relatively high tolerance for chaos and the substantial amount of authority given to children (children take turns leading the class and getting everyone to quiet down, etc).

I think I read it once...it sounds familiar. One of my favorite jdramas was about a male elementary school teacher, in ã¿ã«ãã„アヒルã®å­, Ugly Duckling.

http://www.jdorama.com/drama.260.htm

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%81%BF%E3%81%AB%E3%81%8F%E3%81%84%E3%82%A2%E3%83%92%E3%83%AB%E3%81%AE%E5%AD%90_(%E3%83%86%E3%83%AC%E3%83%93%E3%83%89%E3%83%A9%E3%83%9E)

 

School teachers and administrators also promulgated all sorts of directives that I suspect many Americans, let alone homeschoolers, would find shockingly intrusive: "Please ensure that your child uses the toilet before coming to school in the morning," "All children must wear bicycle helmets whenever riding a bicycle," etc.

 

It's funny, my husband (who is not Japanese) was told this sort of thing in school, and in fact my favorite school book I've found while visiting his family is all about a boy who eats something bad and throws up, and then there's a lesson about washing hands after using the toilet, washing fruit before eating it, not eating unripe fruit, etc. That would never fly here. But really, I think, parents in the US tend to tell their kids this stuff anyway, but wouldn't like the school to.

[SnegurochkaL]

A full inclusion environment means that kids with learning disabilities are mainstreamed in the general ed classroom.

 

It is odd. It should not be this way. Children with learning disabilities will need an extra help and less intensive workflow in a classroom. When I was growing up the school guideline was to allow a student who has a "D" among his final grades to remain in the same grade one more year. If the results do not improve, the child would be removed from a regular school and send to attend the establishment for children with learning disabilities. I knew a girl from my neighborhood who attended such school. She was a sweet child but her mind was not wired to process a lot of math correctly. Nobody would be holding the rest of the students back just because there was somebody who couldn't keep up with the group. Children who had any "C" as they graduate from middle school were not allowed to attend a high school, because most of high school students would be trying to get into colleges later on.

[Roadrunner]

Children who had any "C" as they graduate from middle school were not allowed to attend a high school, because most of high school students would be trying to get into colleges later on.

 

This is interesting. Was this during USSR or after?

At our school kids with C (or 3) were encouraged to go to technicums (sort of trade schools), but they were still allowed to continue into high school if they so wished. You would only really be expelled if you were failing.

Also math homework in elementary school was no more than 20 to 30 minutes. I really don't recall spending an hour on it until the last two years of high school.

 

[SnegurochkaL]

This is interesting. Was this during USSR or after?

At our school kids with C (or 3) were encouraged to go to technicums (sort of trade schools), but they were still allowed to continue into high school if they so wished. You would only really be expelled if you were failing.

Also math homework in elementary school was no more than 20 to 30 minutes. I really don't recall spending an hour on it until the last two years of high school.

 

 

It was still during USSR time and just after it. I recall spending about 1-1.5 hours for math homework in 3rd grade, especially when you get tricky word problems with movement, speed and river current. In high school we were asked to solve about 15-20 problems as homework assignments for algebra class and between 5-10 problems for geometry class including memorizing theorems and proofs. Sometimes I used 3-5 hours just for math in high school, majority of the time was spent on writing down the solution of the problems. Our teacher required no orthographic mistakes in our works.

Our school didn't allow anyone with "C" to attend high school classes.

[loftmama]

Pen, I came across an article yesterday which you may find interesting. Overall it contrasts education in China with education in the U.S. The gist is that the Chinese envy the US's ability to create entrepreneurial thinkers while the US envies the Chinese for their scores. I know it's not what you're asking but within the article, it addresses how much time students spend studying altogether:

 

According to a study conducted by the Hangzhou Education Science Publishing House, Chinese students spend nearly 10 hours per day studying in the primary grades, 11 hours per day in middle school, and 12.5 hours per day in high school.[3]

 

Peter Gray, Psychology Today

 

eta: Fixed link. Thank you, Soror.

[Soror]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201305/be-glad-our-failure-catch-china-in-education

 

That link was broken, awesome article.

[Pen]

Thank you and thank you for corrected link!

[8filltheheart]

http://www.psycholog...na-in-education

 

That link was broken, awesome article.

 

 

I agree! Thank you loftmama for posting the link.

 

This quote

But follow-up studies reveal that test scores don’t predict future success. The high scorers do not achieve beyond their lower-scoring peers once they leave school; in fact, the results of one study suggested that the highest scorers achieved less, on average, than those who scored lower.[7, p 82] Indeed, according to Yong Zhao, an expert on Chinese education, a common term used in China now to refer to the general results of their educational system is gaofen dineng, which means, literally, high scores but low ability. Because students spend nearly all of their time studying, they have little chance to do anything else. They have little opportunity to be creative, take initiative, or develop physical and social skills.

is the one that I find the most interesting. I am always perplexed by the latching on to test scores as a real indicator of success. They are simply **a** measure, not **the** measure.

 

The entire article affirms my personal philosophy of education and that imaginative play develops higher level cognitive skills that are dismissed in the race for acquired knowledge and that knowledge is a lower level skill.

[Arcadia]

is the one that I find the most interesting. I am always perplexed by the latching on to test scores as a real indicator of success. They are simply **a** measure, not **the** measure.

 

In China, good grades from the top universities would help the person get a job. Street smart and social connections will go alot further for success. China is a very populous country after all.

 

I do agree with you that test scores are imperfect indicators.

[Spetzi]

I haven't read every response, but Malcolm Gladwell addresses this in his book "Outliers." He points out that many Asian countries call their numbers things that make them easier to manipulate. So 47-11 might be "four tens and seven ones minus one ten and one one." So the problem sort of solves itself because you can 'see' how many tens and ones there are. He also makes other observations that relate math aptitude to cultural differences and not simply time spent.

 

I just wanted you to consider all reasons before having a kid do 2 hours of math/day.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I haven't read every response, but Malcolm Gladwell addresses this in his book "Outliers." He points out that many Asian countries call their numbers things that make them easier to manipulate. So 47-11 might be "four tens and seven ones minus one ten and one one." So the problem sort of solves itself because you can 'see' how many tens and ones there are. He also makes other observations that relate math aptitude to cultural differences and not simply time spent.

 

I just wanted you to consider all reasons before having a kid do 2 hours of math/day.

 

It is true that in the Japanese language you say "four tens seven" for 47 and "ten- one" for eleven. Makes place value much easier.

[Arcadia]

In case anyone is still reading

"Math Matters" an australian 2011 article talks about teacher training and the decline of students taking harder math in high school affected students math achievement.

http://www.austms.org.au/Publ/Gazette/2011/Jul11/MathsMatters.pdf

[Pen]

Yes, still reading!

[diplomum]

I know someone already mentioned it but America has by far the longest summer holiday as far as I know. A full month longer than our measly five and half or six weeks in the UK. That adds up to a lot of extra instruction time over the course of a student's career. Add in the tendency to "forget" over the holidays, so teachers spend a long time "reviewing" and you can see how the problem is compounded.

[Laura Corin]

 

It is true that in the Japanese language you say "four tens seven" for 47 and "ten- one" for eleven. Makes place value much easier.

 

 

It's the same in Chinese - I hadn't thought about that.

 

Should French speakers be best or worst at maths? The multiples of ten sound quite familiar until you get to seventy, which is 'sixty-ten' (then sixty-eleven, sixty-twelve), followed by eighty which is four-twenty, ninety which is four-twenty-ten (four-twenty-eleven, four-twenty-twelve..)

 

L

[Jean in Newcastle]

It's the same in Chinese - I hadn't thought about that.

 

Should French speakers be best or worst at maths? The multiples of ten sound quite familiar until you get to seventy, which is 'sixty-ten' (then sixty-eleven, sixty-twelve), followed by eighty which is four-twenty, ninety which is four-twenty-ten (four-twenty-eleven, four-twenty-twelve..)

 

L

 

Very interesting about French numbers. I didn't know that! On world rankings they look like they are about in the middle - higher than the U.S. for sure. I wonder how they say numbers in Finland.

[Arcadia]

Very interesting about French numbers. I didn't know that! On world rankings they look like they are about in the middle - higher than the U.S. for sure. I wonder how they say numbers in Finland.

 

Looks like Finnish numbers has the "teens" too

http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/language/number/finnish.html

Japanese http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/language/number/japanese.html

French http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/language/number/french.html

Chinese http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/language/number/mandarin.html

 

[crazyforlatin]

 

 

Looks like Finnish numbers has the "teens" too

http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/language/number/finnish.html

Japanese http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/language/number/japanese.html

French http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/language/number/french.html

Chinese http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/language/number/mandarin.html

 

Chinese numbers are great until you get to 1,000,000. After that, confusion sets in when translating between Chinese and English. I witnessed a hilarious argument among a group of Chinese Americans who have lived here for years, trying to figure out Chinese trillions and English trillions, etc.

[Laura Corin]

Chinese numbers are great until you get to 1,000,000. After that, confusion sets in when translating between Chinese and English. I witnessed a hilarious argument among a group of Chinese Americans who have lived here for years, trying to figure out Chinese trillions and English trillions, etc.

 

The confusion in Chinese starts earlier. My boys learned to play Monopoly in Chinese and it was great fun watching them grapple with it. Chinese has words for 100, 1,000 then 10,000. Numbers after 10,000 are expressed as multiples of ten thousand (wan). So 100,000 is 'ten-wan', 1 million is 'one-hundred-wan' etc. It keeps you on your toes.

 

Until fairly recently, Britain used a different definition of 'billion' to the US (we used billion to mean million million). I think we capitulated in the end.

 

Laura

[Arcadia]

I was thinking maybe part of doing better at it is just spending more time on it.

 

Another factor that I think is not mentioned in this thread is the format of standardised math tests. For Singapore's highly competitive PSLE (11-12 year old) this is the format

 

Paper 1 (50 minutes)

Multiple choice - 15 questions 20% of marks

Short answer - - 15 questions 20% of marks

Paper 2 (1 hour 40 minutes)

Short answer - - 5 questions 10% of marks

Long answer - 13 questions 50% of marks

 

So basically if you flop your long answers questions, you fail your math, and if you don't do well for any sections you don't get your A* (distinction). You need very good scores for elite schools, school assignment depends totally on grades (some slots are given to national sportsmen and kids of philanthropists).

 

There is no multiple choice questions for the high stakes GCE O levels exams for 15-16 year old.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The confusion in Chinese starts earlier. My boys learned to play Monopoly in Chinese and it was great fun watching them grapple with it. Chinese has words for 100, 1,000 then 10,000. Numbers after 10,000 are expressed as multiples of ten thousand (wan). So 100,000 is 'ten-wan', 1 million is 'one-hundred-wan' etc. It keeps you on your toes.

 

Until fairly recently, Britain used a different definition of 'billion' to the US (we used billion to mean million million). I think we capitulated in the end.

 

Laura

 

Japanese higher numbers are similar.

 

http://www.trussel.com/jnumbers.htm Only 10,00 is pronounced man (with an ah sound)

[Laura Corin]

 

 

There is no multiple choice questions for the high stakes GCE O levels exams for 15-16 year old.

 

 

This was the same when I did O levels in the UK - no multi-choice at all. Even now in the UK, most GCSEs (the current rough equivalent) are not multi-choice. Marking papers is a significant source of income for teachers and others in the summer.

 

L