s/o adoption thread... family concerns: is this cult-ish or just different? (CC)

[Janie Grace]

Every so often I read something that just makes my heart sink. Tonight it was that Mother Jones article and then the other places the links posted took me (no longer quivering, above rubies, etc)... I've read those sites before but sometimes it all seems more clearly sinister. Basically the thing is this... we have extended family who are into this stuff. No birth control, long hair, long skirts, homeschool only, no college, no media, ATI, no insurance, home birth, KJV-only, no traditional medicine, and on and on and on. Recently the wife mentioned to me the Trim Healthy Mama book and I didn't realize it was related to the Above Rubies people until tonight... when I made that connection, my heart sank in an "of course" kind of way. As if she would have just come upon a book about fitness/diet and been allowed to read it without it being from a sanctioned source. I am not kidding; this is the way the dh thinks. It really, really freaks me out. I am not bothered that a family would have a lot of counter-cultural convictions; fine, whatever floats your boat. What freaks me out is the apparent lack of ANY critical or independent thinking.

 

So, I'm scared. I guess that's the long and short of it. I'm scared that this is more cultish than we realized. I'm scared for their kids. They have 10 kids and the oldest is 17. So far, no one has rebelled. But I stumbled onto an ex-QF blog tonight about some teen girls who were hurting so badly they became anorexic or cutters. There is so much pain on these ex-ATI/QF/fundie sites. SO MUCH PAIN. The kids in the family I'm referring to are quick to correct you if you call them teenagers (they don't "believe in" teens years/adolescence). But I just have this sinking feeling that it's all going to come apart and it's going to be horrible when it does.

 

So many things bother me about this situation. The lack of insurance (medical/life). The lack of priority on education (their kids are very, very far behind academically). The way no one is allowed to have an original thought/opinion about anything. The view of women as temptresses. The deceitfulness when they relate to us... they act like they have these convictions they have come to independently when really (as I learned more tonight), it's just hook-line-sinker ATI, Above Rubies, etc.

 

They love God and in a lot of ways, they are doing a great job. They certainly read the Bible as a family more than we do and the way their family is "unworldly" is refreshing. But more and more, I just have this terrible sinking feeling.

 

When is a way of thinking (or not thinking) and living cultish or dangerous? When do you try to help people who seem brainwashed? My dh is great about talking to the kids about grace at every opportunity ("we don't have to earn God's love, the law is fulfilled in Christ, isn't that awesome?"). But other than that, I don't see how we can throw these kids a lifeline without undermining their parents.

 

I'm also really tired of being lectured about the next Gothard/Campbell/Pearl-sanctioned "neat thing" every time I see them.

 

Ugh. Any words of wisdom? :(

[Starr]

That sounds really tough. :grouphug:

[OrganicAnn]

I would treat it just like a situation where you thought a relative was in an abusive relationship, but you weren't sure. I'd be friendly and welcoming. I would want to have a plan if someone in the family said 'help me'. If you can't figure out a plan, there are national organizations that may have information that could help you. I think any religion or belief could be taken to extremes and you never know from the outside when it is and when it isn't. Some times different is just different. If a child says 'help me', then how can you not help them?

[Joanne]

I would find the family you describe to be following a movement that had many cultish characteristics. I'd find the family at risk at that level - the level of cult.

 

I think much of what is a part of that movement to be abusive - especially to women and children.

[Coffeetime]

Every so often I read something that just makes my heart sink. Tonight it was that Mother Jones article and then the other places the links posted took me (no longer quivering, above rubies, etc)... I've read those sites before but sometimes it all seems more clearly sinister. Basically the thing is this... we have extended family who are into this stuff. No birth control, long hair, long skirts, homeschool only, no college, no media, ATI, no insurance, home birth, KJV-only, no traditional medicine, and on and on and on. Recently the wife mentioned to me the Trim Healthy Mama book and I didn't realize it was related to the Above Rubies people until tonight... when I made that connection, my heart sank in an "of course" kind of way. As if she would have just come upon a book about fitness/diet and been allowed to read it without it being from a sanctioned source. I am not kidding; this is the way the dh thinks. It really, really freaks me out. I am not bothered that a family would have a lot of counter-cultural convictions; fine, whatever floats your boat. What freaks me out is the apparent lack of ANY critical or independent thinking.

 

So, I'm scared. I guess that's the long and short of it. I'm scared that this is more cultish than we realized. I'm scared for their kids. They have 10 kids and the oldest is 17. So far, no one has rebelled. But I stumbled onto an ex-QF blog tonight about some teen girls who were hurting so badly they became anorexic or cutters. There is so much pain on these ex-ATI/QF/fundie sites. SO MUCH PAIN. The kids in the family I'm referring to are quick to correct you if you call them teenagers (they don't "believe in" teens years/adolescence). But I just have this sinking feeling that it's all going to come apart and it's going to be horrible when it does.

 

So many things bother me about this situation. The lack of insurance (medical/life). The lack of priority on education (their kids are very, very far behind academically). The way no one is allowed to have an original thought/opinion about anything. The view of women as temptresses. The deceitfulness when they relate to us... they act like they have these convictions they have come to independently when really (as I learned more tonight), it's just hook-line-sinker ATI, Above Rubies, etc.

 

They love God and in a lot of ways, they are doing a great job. They certainly read the Bible as a family more than we do and the way their family is "unworldly" is refreshing. But more and more, I just have this terrible sinking feeling.

 

When is a way of thinking (or not thinking) and living cultish or dangerous? When do you try to help people who seem brainwashed? My dh is great about talking to the kids about grace at every opportunity ("we don't have to earn God's love, the law is fulfilled in Christ, isn't that awesome?"). But other than that, I don't see how we can throw these kids a lifeline without undermining their parents.

 

I'm also really tired of being lectured about the next Gothard/Campbell/Pearl-sanctioned "neat thing" every time I see them.

 

Ugh. Any words of wisdom? :(

:grouphug:

www.recoveringgrace.org

Gothard/IBLP/ATI survivors group. You need to spend time reading there- they do a wonderful time at analyzing the spiritual abuse dished out by Gothard.

I was raised in it-- not as deeply entrenched as it sounds like your family is-- but even to the extent that my parents believed his twisted teaching it greatly effected my relationship with God and my view of myself.

[SarahW]

Every so often I read something that just makes my heart sink. Tonight it was that Mother Jones article and then the other places the links posted took me (no longer quivering, above rubies, etc)... I've read those sites before but sometimes it all seems more clearly sinister. Basically the thing is this... we have extended family who are into this stuff. No birth control, long hair, long skirts, homeschool only, no college, no media, ATI, no insurance, home birth, KJV-only, no traditional medicine, and on and on and on. Recently the wife mentioned to me the Trim Healthy Mama book and I didn't realize it was related to the Above Rubies people until tonight... when I made that connection, my heart sank in an "of course" kind of way. As if she would have just come upon a book about fitness/diet and been allowed to read it without it being from a sanctioned source. I am not kidding; this is the way the dh thinks. It really, really freaks me out. I am not bothered that a family would have a lot of counter-cultural convictions; fine, whatever floats your boat. What freaks me out is the apparent lack of ANY critical or independent thinking.

 

So, I'm scared. I guess that's the long and short of it. I'm scared that this is more cultish than we realized. I'm scared for their kids. They have 10 kids and the oldest is 17. So far, no one has rebelled. But I stumbled onto an ex-QF blog tonight about some teen girls who were hurting so badly they became anorexic or cutters. There is so much pain on these ex-ATI/QF/fundie sites. SO MUCH PAIN. The kids in the family I'm referring to are quick to correct you if you call them teenagers (they don't "believe in" teens years/adolescence). But I just have this sinking feeling that it's all going to come apart and it's going to be horrible when it does.

 

So many things bother me about this situation. The lack of insurance (medical/life). The lack of priority on education (their kids are very, very far behind academically). The way no one is allowed to have an original thought/opinion about anything. The view of women as temptresses. The deceitfulness when they relate to us... they act like they have these convictions they have come to independently when really (as I learned more tonight), it's just hook-line-sinker ATI, Above Rubies, etc.

 

They love God and in a lot of ways, they are doing a great job. They certainly read the Bible as a family more than we do and the way their family is "unworldly" is refreshing. But more and more, I just have this terrible sinking feeling.

 

When is a way of thinking (or not thinking) and living cultish or dangerous? When do you try to help people who seem brainwashed? My dh is great about talking to the kids about grace at every opportunity ("we don't have to earn God's love, the law is fulfilled in Christ, isn't that awesome?"). But other than that, I don't see how we can throw these kids a lifeline without undermining their parents.

 

I'm also really tired of being lectured about the next Gothard/Campbell/Pearl-sanctioned "neat thing" every time I see them.

 

Ugh. Any words of wisdom? :(

 

It sounds like this family is letting you and your dh have a good amount of interaction with them. This is good. Unless you see something truly weird going on (abuse or something) there's not much you can do except be polite about their decisions. But, yes, this could all come crashing down. Especially after the kids turn 18 and start itching to move out. If there is distress, you could be the safe place where one of these kids could go to get their life figured out.

 

And about the deceitfulness - I don't think they think they are intentionally lying. In their minds these books and seminars are just showing them "how" to read the Bible. They think that this way of reading is then self-evident - to all whose minds aren't shaded by "darkness" of some sort, of course. This makes it nearly impossible to argue them out of it. The most you could do to "help" here is to be spiritually mature and well-versed in the scriptures, while gently refusing their arguments.

[hillfarm]

If you are Christian, you believe that God has the power to open the eyes of your relatives to the truth, so sincere and consistent prayer about the situation would be my first reaction.

 

Secondly, I also don't think they are intentionally lying to you. They may well be completely unaware that they are following along a predetermined path. I'm sure it has been carefully designed to make followers think they are in full control of their lives and choices at every juncture..

 

Regarding the children, unless you have evidence of specific, physical or mental harm that can be legally prosecuted, I don't think there is much you can do. As they become teens, you might think of a way to let them know that you are always there for them and are willing to offer them a safe place to discuss the "troubles of life", just as Mary went to visit her aunt. If you feel it would be well received, you might mention to your relative that you are offering this to their dc. You might point out to the parents that the prodigal son might not have strayed nearly so far, for so long, if he had a safe, supportive resting place to get his head together when he was a bit too embarrassed to seek his father's forgiveness.

 

Although I am much too independent to accept this kind of teaching, I can see its appeal. It is one-stop-shopping. How to be saved, how to parent, how to interact with your spouse, how to live in but not of the world. I am sure that in this very unsettling world, such a system offers a lot of stability. You might ask them, with genuine interest, what fruit they are seeing from this lifestyle. (I'm sure they perceive a great deal of fruit.) Then perhaps ask how God communicates with them changes or refinements He wishes them to make. Don't tell them what to do, but help them open their minds to their own way of modifying their lifestyle, should they chose to do so.

 

Certainly, God is strong enough to work with these people. He won't force them, but He may well work through the lives of others around them to influence them. I think you could provide a real beacon to them by showing that you live a different lifestyle, but can still remain a Godly person who bears good fruit. Best wishes with this. I think calm understanding and love will win the day.

[Murphy101]

So if someone espouses ideas they have read or studied or discovered via church or home school or other groups - they are lying if they say they believe those things bc it wasn't really their own thought to believe it? Uhh. What? Seriously? I don't buy that. In fact, I find that to be a very condescending thing to say. You are basically saying if they were actually thinking they would see it as you do? I don't think so. I've sure know some people with crazy (to me) ideas and they can be found in all walks of life.

 

Now I happen to agree with you that I would strongly disagree with most of their philosophy as well and would strongly discourage following that stuff.

 

But baring actual abuse, it boils down to differing on minimal education and religious dogmas. Which is not abuse or illegal.

 

If these are people you know VERY well and are close to, I'd be the quiet voice of reason. Ask questions in a respectful manner. Share why you do what you do respectfully. Support them in positive ways while quietly questioning the negative. If you don't know them well, I think it's best to reserve judgement. There is such a wide spectrum on these things and parenting or marriage can be such a twisting journey. What they are exploring and testing now may not end in the same manner. Thankfully many people eventually see the light on this and move to healthier dynamics.

 

But I do see your concerns. Sigh. It sucks to watch a train wreak in process. (((Hugs)))

[Janie Grace]

:grouphug:

www.recoveringgrace.org

Gothard/IBLP/ATI survivors group. You need to spend time reading there- they do a wonderful time at analyzing the spiritual abuse dished out by Gothard.

I was raised in it-- not as deeply entrenched as it sounds like your family is-- but even to the extent that my parents believed his twisted teaching it greatly effected my relationship with God and my view of myself.

 

Thanks. I actually discovered that site after posting here and spent over an hour reading on it... very eye-opening and heart-breaking. I'm sorry for how this impacted you and I am motivated to pray more for this family after reading more about this paradigm/lifestyle/theology and its bitter fruit.

[Janie Grace]

Thanks so much you guys. I really appreciate your input. I want to talk to dh about how we might unobtrusively let our nieces/nephews know we are a safe place. We might not even need to say it... we make a big effort to be in their lives and I think they know we are welcoming and open. I appreciate the advice to ask gentle follow-up questions, especially about ways they might differ from the teachings (which might prompt a "hmmm, we don't differ in any way, is that odd?").

 

Yes, I can see the appeal of the one-stop shop, too. Formulae are comforting. Thanks for the encouragement to keep praying and the reminder that God is able to intervene here. I can easily let my fear for them overwhelm me. But you're right -- He's certainly MORE than able to move them to a place of more balance.

[poppy]

So if someone espouses ideas they have read or studied or discovered via church or home school or other groups - they are lying if they say they believe those things bc it wasn't really their own thought to believe it? Uhh. What? Seriously? I don't buy that. In fact, I find that to be a very condescending thing to say. You are basically saying if they were actually thinking they would see it as you do? I don't think so. I've sure know some people with crazy (to me) ideas and they can be found in all walks of life.

 

I'm assuming it's more of a "I have been thinking about this and came to the conclusion that...." and then repeat something they read, without attributing it or even realizing they are acting as a parrot. It's not so much brainwashing as complete lack of critical thinking skills.

 

But baring actual abuse, it boils down to differing on minimal education and religious dogmas. Which is not abuse or illegal.

 

It's not abuse and it's not illegal, but it is troublesome if they're being taught that the girls' only purpose is obedience and childbearing. That is so limiting, to both the sons and daughters in the family.

[Janie Grace]

So if someone espouses ideas they have read or studied or discovered via church or home school or other groups - they are lying if they say they believe those things bc it wasn't really their own thought to believe it? Uhh. What? Seriously? I don't buy that. In fact, I find that to be a very condescending thing to say. You are basically saying if they were actually thinking they would see it as you do? I don't think so. I've sure know some people with crazy (to me) ideas and they can be found in all walks of life.

 

No, that's not what I was saying at all. This is what I said in my OP: I am not bothered that a family would have a lot of counter-cultural convictions; fine, whatever floats your boat. What freaks me out is the apparent lack of ANY critical or independent thinking.

 

They do not question what they are taught. There is no room in this paradigm for agreeing with some things and disagreeing with others. If you told me "I agree with everything Rush Limbaugh says, about everything" I'd think you weren't a very critical thinker (same as I would if you claimed to agree with "everything" some liberal commentator says, or anyone else). But if Rush had rules for how you could dress and eat, if he prescribed all the homeschool curriculum you were to use, if he told you when you could and could not have sex with your dh (yes, Bill Gothard of ATI has rules on this) -- I'd be concerned that your lack of critical thinking was leading to your being unhealthily controlled. It's not a matter of my disagreeing with their lifestyle choices; I couldn't care less if they have different convictions than I do, if they came to those convictions in a way other than "Bill Gothard says it, so I agree/obey." I find their method of coming to "convictions" troubling, NOT the actual convictions.

[Janie Grace]

I'm assuming it's more of a "I have been thinking about this and came to the conclusion that...." and then repeat something they read, without attributing it or even realizing they are acting as a parrot. It's not so much brainwashing as complete lack of critical thinking skills.

 

 

It's not abuse and it's not illegal, but it is troublesome if they're being taught that the girls' only purpose is obedience and childbearing. That is so limiting, to both the sons and daughters in the family.

 

EXACTLY, on both counts. They will say "we've been studying about ____" and then parrot what Bill Gothard says in article. To me, claiming to have "studied" something includes reading different perspectives or at least studying an original source yourself. To them, it means reading ATI materials. Period.

[Murphy101]

Thanks so much you guys. I really appreciate your input. I want to talk to dh about how we might unobtrusively let our nieces/nephews know we are a safe place. We might not even need to say it... we make a big effort to be in their lives and I think they know we are welcoming and open. I appreciate the advice to ask gentle follow-up questions, especially about ways they might differ from the teachings (which might prompt a "hmmm, we don't differ in any way, is that odd?").

 

Umm. What? No. That isn't necessarily odd. Would you tell a Catholic that conforms to the magisterium that it's odd that they don't differ from it? What if they do differ and your pointing it out makes them feel they need to be more strict?

 

Yes, I can see the appeal of the one-stop shop, too. Formulae are comforting. [/Quote]

 

Sigh. Yes. Formula like the Our Father is comforting. Listen. I pose my questions to you so you can see how they might come across. This sounds very much like you have a problem with organized religion that sets guidelines for how to live. Or maybe only people who actually follow those guidelines. You might not. But that's how it can come across. And you won't get far with someone who disagrees with your view using that tactic.

 

Likewise I'd be really ticked off. As in freaking furious and not associating with that person anymore, if they started telling my kids to consider them a safe place if mom and dad get too religious or start abusing them. The implicit unsaid statement is that mom and dad are not a safe place. Which is a pretty insulting thing to insinuate, yes?

 

If you are a regular and active part of these children's lives and can respectfully and openly disagree with their parents, then they will already know they can talk to you. Especially about things they agree with you and disagree with their parents about. I wouldn't damage that.

 

But I have the other side of the coin. I have a relative who took it upon themselves to have such a talk with my kids. It wasn't even like you suggest. It was just a basic nothing to do with me "if you ever need anything or someone to talk to, I love you and you can call me for help"

 

Now if this relative was someone I approved of? Great!

 

But frankly hell will freeze before I'd even leave my kids alone with this person, much less want them to be who my kids rely on for wise counsel.

 

My children have other people I trust and have told them they can talk to if they ever can't talk to us. Some of them aren't relatives which would really be insulting to my relative. Too bad.

 

You sound really nice. But you need to know that some of your tactics wouldn't go over well with many people.

 

Have you considered just sitting down over coffee and talking to your sil heart to heart honestly?

 

Dear beloved sil,

 

Hey can I talk to you about some of this stuff? I read this in anove ribies or Pesrls book or (show her what you read and where. Maybe print it. Use only the actual materials not someone's opinion on it) and it kind of freaked me out that someone I know loves their children so much would associate with some of these things. I mean, I can't imagine you hitting your kids with plumbing tubing? Can you tell me why something that espouses such acts would appeal to you? Do you worry the kids will feel resentful when they are older and if they do, how would you handle that?"

 

If you are close to them, then speak honestly and without agenda. They may never be abisive and they may never change their faith. So seek understanding and openness more than conversion. Oddly enough, that tends to convert far more minds IMO.

 

Good luck. :)

[Murphy101]

But.. What?? That lacks critical thinking? Basicky you are saying:

 

I'm okay if they believe and live according to xyz.

Unless I don't feel they researched it properly. Then I think it is not okay to live that way if you didn't research it and I might even worry it's abuse.

 

No. Just no. No amount of critical thinking or research makes something that is wrong okay and it doesn't make what is okay become wrong.

 

Let me put it this way:

 

It's perfectly okay for a person to live the catholic faith with researching the details of why or conflicting opinions about it. That is flat out not a determining factor for whether they are living and raising their children justly.

 

If you are not okay with their life choices, then I think it's rather disingenuous to claim that if they read other views about it and still decided to live that way, that suddenly you'd be okay with their life choices.

 

 

 

No, that's not what I was saying at all. This is what I said in my OP: I am not bothered that a family would have a lot of counter-cultural convictions; fine, whatever floats your boat. What freaks me out is the apparent lack of ANY critical or independent thinking.

 

They do not question what they are taught. There is no room in this paradigm for agreeing with some things and disagreeing with others. If you told me "I agree with everything Rush Limbaugh says, about everything" I'd think you weren't a very critical thinker (same as I would if you claimed to agree with "everything" some liberal commentator says, or anyone else). But if Rush had rules for how you could dress and eat, if he prescribed all the homeschool curriculum you were to use, if he told you when you could and could not have sex with your dh (yes, Bill Gothard of ATI has rules on this) -- I'd be concerned that your lack of critical thinking was leading to your being unhealthily controlled. It's not a matter of my disagreeing with their lifestyle choices; I couldn't care less if they have different convictions than I do, if they came to those convictions in a way other than "Bill Gothard says it, so I agree/obey." I find their method of coming to "convictions" troubling, NOT the actual convictions.

[Murphy101]

I just want to say that I am actually literate. Typing on iPhone while dh drives is not conductive to editing. Sorry. :)

[SKL]

No, that's not what I was saying at all. This is what I said in my OP: I am not bothered that a family would have a lot of counter-cultural convictions; fine, whatever floats your boat. What freaks me out is the apparent lack of ANY critical or independent thinking.

 

They do not question what they are taught. There is no room in this paradigm for agreeing with some things and disagreeing with others. If you told me "I agree with everything Rush Limbaugh says, about everything" I'd think you weren't a very critical thinker (same as I would if you claimed to agree with "everything" some liberal commentator says, or anyone else). But if Rush had rules for how you could dress and eat, if he prescribed all the homeschool curriculum you were to use, if he told you when you could and could not have sex with your dh (yes, Bill Gothard of ATI has rules on this) -- I'd be concerned that your lack of critical thinking was leading to your being unhealthily controlled. It's not a matter of my disagreeing with their lifestyle choices; I couldn't care less if they have different convictions than I do, if they came to those convictions in a way other than "Bill Gothard says it, so I agree/obey." I find their method of coming to "convictions" troubling, NOT the actual convictions.

They may very well question everything they are taught, but choose not to share that outside of private husband-wife discussions. This is not necessarily unhealthy. Many couples make the decision to not let their children or neighbors see them disagreeing but to talk it over privately and then present a unified front. Other families have a rule to not air their "dirty laundry" beyond the nuclear family. Just because they don't tell you of any philosophical struggles doesn't mean they aren't thinking. Maybe they don't say anything because every time they have, the other end of the conversation jumped on it as an opportunity to bash their religion/lifestyle or encourage them to "escape." ... I say that as long as the children are safe and healthy, there is no reason to worry. Kids will leave the nest when they are ready. Whether their parents are ultra-conservative or ultra-liberal or just nice, reasonable people. ;)

[SKL]

Another thing. Everyone is in a different place on the path toward spiritual enlightenment as well as awesome parenting ;). The search for truth / better life doesn't go on hold for a couple of decades while you raise children. You take them along for the ride, for better or worse. We ALL do. Thank goodness. Kids are not damaged by this, unless the parents have problems and abuse the kids. Thing is, some parents are going to abuse their kids no matter what "mainstream" or "cult" world they exist in. And most parents are not, regardless of who their spiritual leader is.

[justasque]

I think the best thing you can do is to continue to interact with the family. Take an interest in their interests, invite them to things, etc. Now and again you can ask questions like "have you thought about...", or "what would happen if...", or other gentle, non-threatening ways of introducing other ideas that you think may be helpful to them. Don't push, just plant seeds. A lot of "hmmmm...."''s in response, rather than continuing to push the thought.

 

I think traditional Catholicism is utterly different than the family the OP describes, in that there is a long history of education, debate, dissent, intellectual thought, etc. in the Catholic church. There is respect for differences of conscience, and no one expects all Catholics to live their lives in exactly the same way, or to hold beliefs that are exactly the same (beyond the basics of the Magesterium). There is a well-developed idea that, for example, some women are called to be mothers, some to the religious life, some to serving their community as a single woman, and all of these paths can be a moral way to serve God's calling. If a woman felt called to stay single, and decided to become a nurse, and a darned good one with lots of education, that would be a respected path. It is the lack of support for intellectual pursuits - indeed, the fear of them - that the OP is concerned about.

[SKL]

It is the lack of support for intellectual pursuits - indeed, the fear of them - that the OP is concerned about.

But this is the reality for many millions of people who are not involved in "cults." I can think of some extended family members who are "doing this" to their kids and probably haven't ever been in a house of worship. It's not my place to do anything more than be a good example to their children.

[annandatje]

I'm sorry, Janie Grace. It's difficult to watch those kind of situations unfold. My husband's sister-in-law had a brother who followed a strict patriarchal leader to the tee. At last count, he and his wife had produced fifteen children which his faith community and his sister's family fed and clothed although he gave credit to his deity for providing. Apparently his time was consumed by studying religious texts to the point that he could not work full time.

[Trish]

Those types of culty movements do skeeve me out. But, are they any worse than what passes for "normal" in a lot of the U.S.? Dysfunctional families abound. Just because this one happens to be purposeful, organized dysfunction (and maybe I'm going too far in calling it that, it depends on the level of commitment and to what degree, if any, harm is being done), doesn't mean it's worse than parents who are always fighting, ignoring their kids, doing drugs in front of/with them, etc. etc. There are probably HEALTHY families who follow those precepts too, right? It's usually the unhealthy ones who end up posting about the horribleness on blogs and so forth. So I wouldn't be too quick to judge unless someone's asking for help, or there's obvious harm being done.

[Janie Grace]

But.. What?? That lacks critical thinking? Basicky you are saying:

 

No. Just no. No amount of critical thinking or research makes something that is wrong okay and it doesn't make what is okay become wrong.

 

Let me put it this way:

 

It's perfectly okay for a person to live the catholic faith with researching the details of why or conflicting opinions about it. That is flat out not a determining factor for whether they are living and raising their children justly.

 

If you are not okay with their life choices, then I think it's rather disingenuous to claim that if they read other views about it and still decided to live that way, that suddenly you'd be okay with their life choices.

 

Okay, first of all let me say this -- I agree that there are certain things that would not be okay regardless of the amount of research one has done. You can read a hundred parenting books and if you land on abusive spanking, it's still wrong.

 

And I admit -- there are things that concern me that would still concern me even if they had read "the other side." For instance, I think it's wrong to not teach your kids past an 8th grade level and instead have them doing manual/household labor. So, even if this couple read WTM and Charlotte Mason and still said, "that's nice but our kids need to spend their time serving our family by doing farm work and cleaning, not schoolwork" -- yes, I'd still be concerned. So perhaps it is disingenuous to act as if I'd be okay with all of their life choices if only they made them more circumspectly. I feel strongly about certain things (giving children education, getting needed healthcare, etc) and no amount of research by the neglectful party (and yes, I think they are neglectful in some ways) is going to make me think their decision to neglect is okay.

 

I do think the lack of critical thinking is dangerous. I think subscribing to one way of living as "godly" down to the MINUTIA of every single life choice (with the other choice cast as sinful/worldly, and NO room for "grey") is dangerous. I'm not talking about teaching your kids to save sex for marriage. I'm not talking about teaching your kids that you believe God should control your family size. I'm talking about books, TV, music "with a beat" (anything but classical), facial hair, hairstyles, every detail of clothing, what toys are okay and not, and on and on -- ALL of this is pre-determined. There is no room for "Dad and I do XYZ" with an attitude of openness that God might lead others differently and an encouragement to think through issues for themselves. I'm sorry, but I believe this is a recipe for extreme rebellion (and intense struggle to ever feel good enough). I'm all for passing on our religion/morals to our kids. I'm a Christian who joyfully and unabashedly encourages her kids to love Jesus and my dh and I have many convictions about what holy living looks like. I am just concerned by the unquestioning loyalty to every rule that comes out of the mouth of a man.

 

You know, I hadn't thought of this being parallel to Catholicism. Catholics that I know ("even" ones who follow their faith closely) have seemed like thinking, reasonable people. They don't seem brainwashed. They can discuss what they believe and why. It makes sense within the framework they espouse. This family's reasoning seems circular, based on Scriptures wrenched out of context, and fear-driven. It's hard to explain in words; I have a feeling that if you spent time in their home talking to them, you'd understand what I mean.

[Murphy101]

 

But this is the reality for many millions of people who are not involved in "cults." I can think of some extended family members who are "doing this" to their kids and probably haven't ever been in a house of worship. It's not my place to do anything more than be a good example to their children.

 

Yes. This.

 

I don't think it matters how new or old the belief is or how strict or not it is.

 

It's their choice to live that way. And it makes absolutely no sense or logic to suggest that one only has a problem with it bc they aren't valuing intellectualism. In all honesty, that's bull bc it isn't true at all.

 

I don't care if someone read dr sears, Spock, and consulted their pediatrician and then decided to go ahead and follow the Pearls way or if they only heard about it through their little group of like minded buddies and sheepled their way in line with it, If I see or hear they took a switch to the back legs of their 6 month old - I'm going to tell them a thing or two about how wrong that is. I don't care where or how they got the dumb idea bc that doesn't change the wrongness of it. I sure as heck am not going to say, "Oh You put a lot of critical thinking into it? well in that case i have no problem with it."

[SKL]

Hate to state the obvious, but if there's a blog designated for "victims" of a certain phenomenon, all you're going to see is the "victim" side of the story. Does that prove cause/effect? If you go looking, you will easily find many stories of "victims" of overbearing moms, permissive moms, liberal moms, conservative moms, rigorous schools, lax schools, home schools, adoption, traditional medicine, nontraditional medicine, and just about everything else. In each of these, there are also many success stories, but those don't get posted on the "victim" websites. So keep it in perspective.

[justasque]

But this is the reality for many millions of people who are not involved in "cults." I can think of some extended family members who are "doing this" to their kids and probably haven't ever been in a house of worship. It's not my place to do anything more than be a good example to their children.

 

But in those families, if a girl decides they do want to study chemistry so they can go to nursing school, say, they may be ridiculed, they may not get financial support to pay the tuition, but if they decide to go ahead despite the family culture, they do not have spiritual issues, including their salvation, wrapped up in it. It's a huge difference.

 

I'm not suggesting the OP do anything subversive. But I think she has some valid reasons to be concerned that things *might* go badly somewhere down the line for her young relatives, and they *might* need a supportive listening ear. And on some level, that's what family does for family. It's a tricky line to walk, but I do think there is a line, and it's worth walking, because it can make a *huge* difference in the life of a family member.

[SarahW]

 

I think traditional Catholicism is utterly different than the family the OP describes, in that there is a long history of education, debate, dissent, intellectual thought, etc. in the Catholic church. There is respect for differences of conscience, and no one expects all Catholics to live their lives in exactly the same way, or to hold beliefs that are exactly the same (beyond the basics of the Magesterium). There is a well-developed idea that, for example, some women are called to be mothers, some to the religious life, some to serving their community as a single woman, and all of these paths can be a moral way to serve God's calling. If a woman felt called to stay single, and decided to become a nurse, and a darned good one with lots of education, that would be a respected path. It is the lack of support for intellectual pursuits - indeed, the fear of them - that the OP is concerned about.

 

:iagree:

 

There's a big difference between learning from the Magisterium and eating wheat bread because you were taught that it's holier than white bread.

 

When these people say they "studied" what they mean is that they read Basic Life Principles or went to a Gothard seminar, and came away convinced that what they know is God's secret knowledge.

 

The OP didn't reference Catholicism, and I think all of us understand that it is night-and-day from what is going on here.

 

fwiw, my mother flirted with ATI when I was growing up. It was my father (ironically) that put the lid on it, so we never got as "deep" as the stories I've read on recovering grace, but deep enough to understand the pain. I spent a few years in my early teens convinced that music with a beat invited demons, and that African music was devil-worshipping music. My mom and I did wear pants everyday except Sunday, but we ate only wheat bread (but with margarine, I wish Gothard had preached against the devil in margarine too, if anything's the devil, it's margarine! :ack2: ).

[Janie Grace]

Those types of culty movements do skeeve me out. But, are they any worse than what passes for "normal" in a lot of the U.S.? Dysfunctional families abound. Just because this one happens to be purposeful, organized dysfunction (and maybe I'm going too far in calling it that, it depends on the level of commitment and to what degree, if any, harm is being done), doesn't mean it's worse than parents who are always fighting, ignoring their kids, doing drugs in front of/with them, etc. etc. There are probably HEALTHY families who follow those precepts too, right? It's usually the unhealthy ones who end up posting about the horribleness on blogs and so forth. So I wouldn't be too quick to judge unless someone's asking for help, or there's obvious harm being done.

 

Good point. I do need to be careful not to panic based on the worst stories.

[Janie Grace]

But in those families, if a girl decides they do want to study chemistry so they can go to nursing school, say, they may be ridiculed, they may not get financial support to pay the tuition, but if they decide to go ahead despite the family culture, they do not have spiritual issues, including their salvation, wrapped up in it. It's a huge difference.

 

I'm not suggesting the OP do anything subversive. But I think she has some valid reasons to be concerned that things *might* go badly somewhere down the line for her young relatives, and they *might* need a supportive listening ear. And on some level, that's what family does for family. It's a tricky line to walk, but I do think there is a line, and it's worth walking, because it can make a *huge* difference in the life of a family member.

 

Yes, this is exactly it. If one of these girls wanted to study chemistry, she would not be ALLOWED. The girls are forbidden to leave home until they are married. If one of them left and went to college to study chemistry, I really think she would be written off as rebellious. Because she went out from under her dad's authority, she would be considered in opposition to God.

 

I do want to be the supporting listening ear, should this (or worse) happen. I guess my original question was, is there a way to appeal to a family like this BEFORE a train wreck happens? Seems like the general consensus here is "mind your own business."

[Janie Grace]

 

:iagree:

 

There's a big difference between learning from the Magisterium and eating wheat bread because you were taught that it's holier than white bread.

 

When these people say they "studied" what they mean is that they read Basic Life Principles or went to a Gothard seminar, and came away convinced that what they know is God's secret knowledge.

 

The OP didn't reference Catholicism, and I think all of us understand that it is night-and-day from what is going on here.

 

fwiw, my mother flirted with ATI when I was growing up. It was my father (ironically) that put the lid on it, so we never got as "deep" as the stories I've read on recovering grace, but deep enough to understand the pain. I spent a few years in my early teens convinced that music with a beat invited demons, and that African music was devil-worshipping music. My mom and I did wear pants everyday except Sunday, but we ate only wheat bread (but with margarine, I wish Gothard had preached against the devil in margarine too, if anything's the devil, it's margarine! :ack2: ).

 

You obviously get it. I think it's hard for someone who hasn't seen ATI up close to really understand the cultish control they exert over people. My heart is so heavy.

[FaithManor]

Well, I see a lot of train wrecks from many sources, not just ATI. I could have been an absolute train wreck from the two years of high school I spent in a fundamentalist, A.C.E. school that my parents enrolled me in even though they didn't believe this stuff at home. I THOUGHT they believed all of it because in my teenage brain, I figured my parents wouldn't enroll me there if they didn't believe it. (They enrolled me because someone convinced them the academics were better than our local school and because the school schedule was more flexible for my many hours of piano practice as well as performances.) So much for teenage brains. Some SERIOUSLY, spiritually abusive stuff went down in that school, still does to.this.very.day., and it took me 2 1/2 years to finally talk to mom and dad about it. The next day I was placed back in the public school! To my surprise, I found my parents differed quite a bit in what they thought was acceptable or not to do or say to female students!

 

I've seen it from a variety of worldviews. There will always be a subset of people who take any belief, any worldview, any lifestyle to what appears to be an unhealthy extreme and the offspring of said adults will ALWAYS have to deal with the fall-out. It has always been; it will always be. But, unless we are going to start some pretty massive orphanages across the U.S., I think we will have to be content to allow those that aren't being criminally abusive, to live and let live because frankly, it's not like there will ever be a concensus on what is healthy and what is truly abusive. We can't hardly handle the real cases of physical abuse and neglect now without mixing in whether or not ATI parents, or others are criminal abusers because of what they believe.

 

All you can do, OP, is be there. Don't do one thing that would ruin your relationship with your inlaws and their children. You have an opportunity to be there for them if those kids grow up and choose to leave that group and that way of life. You can help them get into school as adults and make up for educational deficits. You can help them find jobs. You can let them couch surf at your house until they find their way. There is so much you can do to help them overcome their personal train wreck. But, you can only do it if you are a part of their lives and not in exile.

 

Now, if you witness an episode of plumbing line beating, have a child confide in you that some horrible thing has happened to them, find that a niece or nephew has a serious medical problem and the parents are allowing it to spiral out of control due to being against medical intervention, etc....if you see something that extreme, then by all means, call.the.cops. Call CPS. Do what you have to do to save that child. Let the authorities sort it out and if a child is removed from the home, get in line with CPS to take that child.

 

But, mostly, you need to understand that America is not a homogenous society and it was founded on the idea of worldview pluralism, so people have a constitutional right to embrace a lifestyle or worldview that is completely opposed to what you see as good, common-sense, and if you don't respect that within reason, you'll just end up doing more harm than good.

 

Be there. That's the thing. Just.be.there. and keep your eyes and ears open.

 

Truly, I am sorry. :grouphug: :grouphug: I don't know if Nan in Mass has had any couch surfing ATI teens, but I've had one and the situation was not pretty. Thankfully, I can report that this young adult is doing very well now. It took a while. But, yep, she's on the road to good health, education and job training, and a future that doesn't make her clinically depressed.

 

Faith

[SarahW]

 

I do want to be the supporting listening ear, should this (or worse) happen. I guess my original question was, is there a way to appeal to a family like this BEFORE a train wreck happens? Seems like the general consensus here is "mind your own business."

 

 

I don't think there is much you can do. It helped me as a teen to be involved in the church youth group, which my mother was originally opposed to, but eventually allowed. Being in the home of a stable Christian family where the mom was a high school physics teacher helped. Though it also helped that they were what most would characterize as being ultra-conservative. They didn't see the devil in white bread, but they did see it in high-fantasy (I don't think the high-fantasy genre ever made it on Gothard's radar, so that was weird). They pushed college attendance (at conservative Christian schools) and liked CCM, even the soft-rock CCM.

 

All that to say, in my mind they were still pretty "safe," even when they were "edgy." You have to remember that in this group the world is pretty dangerous. Having a statue of Buddha around you could turn you into a pagan idolater in no time flat. So breaking out, whether there is abuse or self-abuse going on or not, is a very scary proposition. So I think the most you can do is emphasize that you don't intend to endanger them. Emphasize that you're fine with them not dating, not wearing pants, not listening to some music, etc. But if they want to talk about anything you're open to discussion. Let them know that you think they themselves, and their happiness, is important to you. At the moment, the comment in your OP about them not calling themselves "teens" tells me that they don't see anything "off" at the moment. Trying to intervene for people who don't think they need intervention never ends well. So the only thing you can do is make sure you're a safe door to knock on if they need you.

[Murphy101]

I'm not saying ATI and RCC have much in common. I don't think so. That wasn't my point which was missed entirely.

 

I assure you there are RCs out there that would have more in common with ATI. I don't agree with their version of Catholicism at all. (And frankly, I don't think the RCC necessary does either but that's a whole other issue!)

 

My point was simply that the OPs logic was terribly flawed and wouldn't see it as going over well. Especially as her entire basis for discussion was their lack of critical thinking.

[Coffeetime]

 

I don't think there is much you can do. It helped me as a teen to be involved in the church youth group, which my mother was originally opposed to, but eventually allowed. Being in the home of a stable Christian family where the mom was a high school physics teacher helped. Though it also helped that they were what most would characterize as being ultra-conservative. They didn't see the devil in white bread, but they did see it in high-fantasy (I don't think the high-fantasy genre ever made it on Gothard's radar, so that was weird). They pushed college attendance (at conservative Christian schools) and liked CCM, even the soft-rock CCM.

 

All that to say, in my mind they were still pretty "safe," even when they were "edgy." You have to remember that in this group the world is pretty dangerous. Having a statue of Buddha around you could turn you into a pagan idolater in no time flat. So breaking out, whether there is abuse or self-abuse going on or not, is a very scary proposition. So I think the most you can do is emphasize that you don't intend to endanger them. Emphasize that you're fine with them not dating, not wearing pants, not listening to some music, etc. But if they want to talk about anything you're open to discussion. Let them know that you think they themselves, and their happiness, is important to you. At the moment, the comment in your OP about them not calling themselves "teens" tells me that they don't see anything "off" at the moment. Trying to intervene for people who don't think they need intervention never ends well. So the only thing you can do is make sure you're a safe door to knock on if they need you.

 

:iagree:

Except it doesn't have to be Buddha. It can be a Cabbage Patch doll. My parents let us keep our dolls that were given to us (because we were the "normal" ones) ... but only after they had burned their "birth certificates" to destroy any demons that had attached themselves to them. (See why I put "normal" in quotations marks?) :lol:

 

I agree with everything SarahW says here- the statistic is that less than 1% of kids raised in ATI stay in it. So the chances are that at some point, some of them are going to want/need a place to escape. And yes, I say escape because, at the level of involvement you're describing, the likelihood is that when/if they leave they will be disowned by their family. Be that place. The only way you can do that at this point is to have a relationship with them that conveys to them (without challenging their beliefs that they clearly still hold) that you love them unconditionally and always will.

 

And also? You rock. :thumbup1:

[Coffeetime]

 

 

 

fwiw, my mother flirted with ATI when I was growing up. It was my father (ironically) that put the lid on it, so we never got as "deep" as the stories I've read on recovering grace, but deep enough to understand the pain. I spent a few years in my early teens convinced that music with a beat invited demons, and that African music was devil-worshipping music. My mom and I did wear pants everyday except Sunday, but we ate only wheat bread (but with margarine, I wish Gothard had preached against the devil in margarine too, if anything's the devil, it's margarine! :ack2: ).

 

 

I have a feeling you and I have quite a bit in common. My dad was the one who put the kabosh on the whole "only wearing skirts and dresses".

[I.Dup.]

I agree with Martha. Live and let live. ATI and Above Rubies isn't always damaging. I know some very lovely families who have raised healthy, well-adjusted kids through those methods. Don't just believe the hype. For every "no longer quivering" blog there are 10 families turning out great.

[kiwik]

Keep in touch so you can see what is going on. They are probably not lying about the studying thing just mean something different than what you or I mean. Don't offer that they can come to you if they 'need help' but make it clear that they are welcome in your home any time - like all your other relatives.

 

I feel like you about the education - every child should get enough education to allow them to function well in general society - but lots of people don't for a lot of reasons. And I would call it a cult if a self appointed person is calling the shots.

[LucyStoner]

 

When these people say they "studied" what they mean is that they read Basic Life Principles or went to a Gothard seminar, and came away convinced that what they know is God's secret knowledge.

 

 

 

People can only believe that stuff if they want to believe it or have learned to not question things or are desperate for something. I went to his BLPs seminar when I was in junior high because my best friend was from a very conservative family and my Catholic parents let me go without realizing what the hell it was. The dude literally staged his own fake assault by a deranged appearing man on stage. Then everyone prayed for the "mentally unstable man" who'd just attacked Bill Gothard and this man's good Christian father just happened to be in the audience and he came up and thanked Bill for saving his son. Then the attacker enthusiastically asked us all to sing his favorite hymn because he'd been saved. They said that the father didn't know where his son was since he'd run away and was living on the streets. The prayer had supposedly excised the evil spirit or whatnot that had made him run away. All of this went down in a matter of minutes. I am sorry, but I seriously question what mental state a person has to be in to see all that and bite in, hook line and sinker. It was so blatantly fraudulent. They were not convincing enough actors and the story was implausible at best. After the first 5 or so minutes of the whole multiday seminar, I felt like an anthropologist watching a peculiar cultural event.

[kiwik]

maybe the acting has improved?

[LucyStoner]

I agree with Martha. Live and let live. ATI and Above Rubies isn't always damaging. I know some very lovely families who have raised healthy, well-adjusted kids through those methods. Don't just believe the hype. For every "no longer quivering" blog there are 10 families turning out great.

 

It is neither healthy or well adjusted to think that women should not be able to go to college. And that's just for starters.

 

I agree with live and let live within the legal limits but I would worry heavily if my nieces and nephews were sucked into something like this. I disagree that it is ok or acceptable however and I would have a hard time trusting adults wrapped up in this. I certainly wouldn't be leaving any of my kids with relatives that thought like this. I wish there were better safe guards in place for educational standards but, as it stands, there are not.

[butterflymommy]

I agree with Martha. Live and let live. ATI and Above Rubies isn't always damaging. I know some very lovely families who have raised healthy, well-adjusted kids through those methods. Don't just believe the hype. For every "no longer quivering" blog there are 10 families turning out great.

 

Exactly. Remember that the people hurt enough and motivated enough to write these "survivor" sites may be the exception. I read one of the anti-QF blogs and the woman, who was complaining about her poor education, wrote beautifully. Well I assume someone taught her to write! I'm sure some have legitimate grievances but it's so easy to blame your problems on your upbringing, when usually our problems are a mix of our upbringing AND our own faults and anger.

 

I have looked at the ATI type sites and they don't seem cultish to me. No one is being forced to join. They're not living on gated, patrolled compounds like the branch davidians. As far as allegedly not being well educated, children receive abysmal educations in many brick and mortar schools yet no one talks about that as child abuse. And unless the children are being locked in the house once they are of legal age to be independent, they are free to choose other lifestyles when they are grown.

 

So as another poster said, unless you know of illegal activity taking place, I would let them live their lives.

 

That all being said, I do feel bad for doubters and non-believers living in these tight religious circles. They risk losing everything if they walk away from their faith. But the ATI type circles are not nearly as controlling and all encompassing as, say, the satmar sects or the amish.

[G5052]

Technically, people can raise their children as they see fit, within some bounds of course.

 

I have people in my life in the Above Rubies/Pearl/Gothard camp, and frankly there is very little I can do to change them. I've been accused of raising rebels because we don't subscribe to their tenets.

 

However, I have asked them to specifically show me in the Bible where certain beliefs are explicitly taught, and that usually stops them in their tracks. Where in the Bible does it say that you should spank a baby for crying? Where in the Bible does it say that a woman cannot under any circumstances work for pay outside her home? Where does it say that you cannot consult a medical professional (which includes where does it say that you cannot under any circumstances have a baby at a hospital)?

[butterflymommy]

It is neither healthy or well adjusted to think that women should not be able to go to college. And that's just for starters.

 

I agree with live and let live but I would worry heavily if my nieces and nephews were sucked into something like this.

 

But they are not being forcibly prevented from attending college as adults. No one is locking them in houses or throwing acid on them if they do choose to attend college. Being discouraged from attending college, or risking losing family ties by attending college, is very different from physically being barred from seeking a higher education.

 

As far as not being adequately prepared for college MANY young adults are in the same boat for a variety of reasons and there are countless resources for them to remediate their education.

[poppy]

Well as long as there is no acid throwing, why care?

Sheesh.

 

[LucyStoner]

But they are not being forcibly prevented from attending college as adults. No one is locking them in houses or throwing acid on them if they do choose to attend college. Being discouraged from attending college, or risking losing family ties by attending college, is very different from physically being barred from seeking a higher education.

 

As far as not being adequately prepared for college MANY young adults are in the same boat for a variety of reasons and there are countless resources for them to remediate their education.

 

Yeah, I guess it is not abusive if it doesn't rise to the level of false imprisonment and permanent mutilation?!

 

It is not a stretch to see that physical and sexual abuse is often present in patriarchal households where physical punishment is seen as a religious imperative. My mother was gravely abused by her mother (to the point of physical disability) and she went to her grave still, 50+ years later, seeking her mother's love and approval. You don't need to physically block something if your child is broken and will do everything to maintain your affection. And people can be abused emotionally, spiritually and verbally.

[SarahW]

People can only believe that stuff if they want to believe it or have learned to not question things or are desperate for something. I went to his BLPs seminar when I was in junior high because my best friend was from a very conservative family and my Catholic parents let me go without realizing what the hell it was. The dude literally staged his own fake assault by a deranged appearing man on stage. Then everyone prayed for the "mentally unstable man" who'd just attacked Bill Gothard and this man's good Christian father just happened to be in the audience and he came up and thanked Bill for saving his son. Then the attacker enthusiastically asked us all to sing his favorite hymn because he'd been saved. They said that the father didn't know where his son was since he'd run away and was living on the streets. The prayer had supposedly excised the evil spirit or whatnot that had made him run away. All of this went down in a matter of minutes. I am sorry, but I seriously question what mental state a person has to be in to see all that and bite in, hook line and sinker. It was so blatantly fraudulent. They were not convincing enough actors and the story was implausible at best. After the first 5 or so minutes of the whole multiday seminar, I felt like an anthropologist watching a peculiar cultural event.

 

 

Now I'm miffed that I never went to seminar. How exciting! In a :w00t: but so totally :scared: sort of way.

 

And people can be abused emotionally, spiritually and verbally.

 

 

Yes. Your 3yo kid comes to you crying because he got hurt? Spank him. That's just the beginning. ugh.

 

Some families apply the "rules" differently, so what exactly happens in the home is impossible to tell. But at its heart it is dysfunctional.

[LucyStoner]

 

Some families apply the "rules" differently, so what exactly happens in the home is impossible to tell. But at its heart it is dysfunctional.

 

 

Yeah. One survivor story I have heard too often to dismiss as mere rumor is sexually abused girls being required to apologize to their abuser and told that they each (abuser and victim) needed to forgive the other for sinning/incest. Um. Um. Um. No. Just no.

[SarahW]

:iagree:

Except it doesn't have to be Buddha. It can be a Cabbage Patch doll. My parents let us keep our dolls that were given to us (because we were the "normal" ones) ... but only after they had burned their "birth certificates" to destroy any demons that had attached themselves to them. (See why I put "normal" in quotations marks?) :lol:

 

I agree with everything SarahW says here- the statistic is that less than 1% of kids raised in ATI stay in it. So the chances are that at some point, some of them are going to want/need a place to escape. And yes, I say escape because, at the level of involvement you're describing, the likelihood is that when/if they leave they will be disowned by their family. Be that place. The only way you can do that at this point is to have a relationship with them that conveys to them (without challenging their beliefs that they clearly still hold) that you love them unconditionally and always will.

 

And also? You rock. :thumbup1:

 

 

Me? thanks :blushing:

 

I remember a cousin of mine had cabbage patch dolls, and my mom and my aunt got into a huge discussion about it (my aunt, incidentally, being a pious Catholic, didn't see the problem) and then my mother telling me all about the doll's demons, and I didn't go to my cousin's house very often after that. I was about 8? That was just the beginning.

 

It's bizarrely ironic that with all the "family-is-everything" aspect of ATI, it was ATI that nearly destroyed my family. My parents later got a divorce, not specifically because of ATI, but that was one of the underlying factors. So yeah, I'm very miffed at Bill Gothard. :mad:

[SKL]

It's bizarrely ironic that with all the "family-is-everything" aspect of ATI, it was ATI that nearly destroyed my family. My parents later got a divorce, not specifically because of ATI, but that was one of the underlying factors. So yeah, I'm very miffed at Bill Gothard. :mad:

 

Well . . . did Bill Gothard live at your house? Or are you perhaps giving him more power than he deserves? If your parents made mistakes, it's on them. The world is full of "bad influences." But humans are responsible for their own choices. Two people can listen to the same speech and come away with completely different feelings / beliefs. Must be because they already had different views before they attended the speech. Child/wife abuse existed before Pearl/Gothard etc. and would certainly flourish without them. I don't see any value in scapegoating the actions of an adult.

[unfrumpable.]

But they are not being forcibly prevented from attending college as adults. No one is locking them in houses or throwing acid on them if they do choose to attend college. Being discouraged from attending college, or risking losing family ties by attending college, is very different from physically being barred from seeking a higher education.

 

As far as not being adequately prepared for college MANY young adults are in the same boat for a variety of reasons and there are countless resources for them to remediate their education.

 

 

Emotional manipulation and control can be just as strong as physical manipulation and control.