Can I Read JUST Non-Fiction to a Kid?

[mathmarm]

I'm sorry, maybe its the hormones talking, but I have been very upset about the 'Reading to your kids' bit that I have read so much about in the last few months.

 

Will reading nonfiction to him help him to learn to read and love books the way that literature will? I know that this sentiment may not be well received on a classical education forum, but I, personally, hate reading literature, fiction and I can't take the idea of reading trash-books to my kid for years on end just so that he will love books. I have looked at about 50 children's classic books and I can't see myself actually reading them with my son as he is growing up, I don't like them at all. I didn't enjoy such stories even when I was a kid! They seem inane and they drive me insane. My Husband isn't nearly as bothered by typical childrens books as I am, and he is willing to read to Jr. story books on a daily basis (we've already bought quite a few, but most of them are a 1st-3rd grade reading level) but I want to read to him also.

 

I feel that its important my son get exposed to books even before he is being taught to read, and would like to begin building a library for him (Jr. is my first child and will be born at the end of the summer). He already has quite a few living math books and I am planning to buy him more, but are there a good series of nonfiction books that I can begin buying for him?

 

I know that there is a method to the madness that is basal readers and silly-rhyme books but I can't take the madness that delivers the method. Should I suck it up and just buy normal kids books for Jr.? Is it okay to read only non-fiction to my son? (I have a friend who teaches 2nd grade and she says it will not feed his imagination the way stories do, it sounds like tripe to me, but little kids are not my specialty at all.) I place a strong value on imagination, character traits and knowledge and would like to instill a sense of imagination in Jr. and any other kids Hubby and I will have, but I don't know if I can take several years with childrens books.

 

I don't know why this matters so much, I have stressed out more about Jr. in the last month than I have anything else before in my life!!! I can't wait to get this kid out of my womb and into my arms!

[Arcadia]

I don't like to read out loud. I got around that by bringing my boys to baby/toddler story time when they were little and by borrowing audiobooks off the library. My hubby will read them whatever classics I ask him to read. We have a few classics like Aesop Fables, A child's garden of verses, Grimms Fairy Tales, Hans Christian Andersen. We took our time building up our collection of classics, borrowing from the library until we find a copy we like to buy.

For non-fiction reading, we like the national geographic readers http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/category/national-geographic-readers-series My boys did not like the phonics readers.

[happypamama]

I think there are a lot of ways to feed imagination, and I don't think stories are strictly necessary for that. Kids DO tend to enjoy them, but if your husband is happy to read them, and you take them to story time, or whatever, I think it'll be fine. Reading non-fiction to them can still give them the richness of language (though maybe not the exposure to dialogue, but they'll get that when they read to themselves) and exposure to facts and sentence structure and all of that. For imagination, you can give them open-ended toys (like cloths to turn into flags/blankets/whatever, dolls, blocks, etc.), expose them to art, give them playdough/paint/etc., and so on. I think hearing the language and seeing books of any type as a Good Thing is what will make them want to read the most.

 

Fwiw, my husband really was never too big on fiction. To this day, he really prefers non-fiction. And he reads *constantly,* scholarly, challenging stuff. He's always got at least one book, if not more, in the works, plus an ongoing audio book for his commute. And he's a gifted writer, who is very, very creative. Lots of imagination.

[Julie of KY]

I think reading non-fiction is fine. BUT, I also allow my kids to pick books off my shelves or the library shelves and sometimes they want me to read books that are not my favorites. What happens when JR goes to a friend's home and plays with Thomas the Tank Engine trains and then discovers that there are also Thomas books. (or any other senario).

 

My advice is to love him and decide day by day, month by month what is the best for him - you'll figure out what works best in YOUR home for YOUR family and it may or may not look like what others do.

[Rosie_0801]

Read whatever you like to your child. Every bit helps :) Outsource what you can't do. Every bit helps. :) Bed time stories are valuable, but there is no research anywhere to show that they are more valuable when read by a mother than by a father, so toss the guilt about that away. Rhymes are really important, so don't neglect them. Nursery rhymes are necessary for cultural literacy, so yeah, I think you need to suck it up and sing them. I can't bring myself to read Fox in Socks, but I can read these without wanting to dig out my eyeballs. I don't much like reading out loud either, but happily dd will listen to anything, from Enid Blyton's fairy stories (which are pretty horrible as an adult but I loved back then) to Pride and Prejudice so I read whatever I feel like reading.

 

Audiobooks are a great idea. It has amazed me how much more enjoyable some stories are when you aren't reading them for yourself. I have a fan girl crush on Karen Savage who reads for Librivox. She can very nearly convince me that I like Jane Austen's 'Emma' when I really hate it.

[momtoamiracle]

does he enjoy it? I think that is the key.

 

 

You don't have to read it out loud. Get audiobooks. My son LOVES audiobooks. You might not like stories about animals talking such as Wind in the Willows, the original Winnie the Pooh, Paddington Bear but he may enjoy it.

 

You can also find nonfiction written in story form, such as James Herriot's Cat stories, Dog stories, and such as that. Beautiful writing. Also books about historical people. I find history written in fictional form so much easier to read.

 

Do you watch television? A lot of movies are based on books. Mostly not done very well but some are. You may enjoy more visual then reading. Some people are like that. But that doesn't mean your son won't enjoy it, so I wouldn't keep it from him.

[kirstenhill]

I guess my advice would be to be open minded to what he likes once he is old enough to have an opinion about it. A lot of boys do gravitate toward non-fiction when they are old enough to chose their own books. My boys have definitely gone though phases where every library book they select is from that section of the library. On the other hand, my boys also LOVE stories about ninjas, star wars characters, super heroes and so on. You might get away with saying, "you have to ask Daddy if you want to hear one of those books." ...but I know I am willing to read tons of books I don't care for personally just because my kids love them and I like to do things that delight my kids. Do we read all junky star wars and super hero books? No, of course not, but since my boys love them I am happy to let that be a portion of what I read to them.

 

When he is little (under 3 or definitely under 2), you would probably want more developmentally-appropriate books for that age -- board books or other sturdy books -- because he will be apt to wreck the nice ones. :-) When they are babies/toddlers the sensory experience of the books and hearing your voice telling them about what they are seeing is far more important than actual story or content, IMHO.

[I.Dup.]

I think you need to quit worrying about all of this at LEAST until he is born.

[SarahW]

Are we talking about a child who isn't even born yet?

 

I know reading to babies is encouraged. But it doesn't to be piles of books like The Hungry Caterpillar. You can read Dantes Inferno aloud if you want. The point is to start imprinting the sounds and cadence of English.

 

One thing that I do regret with my kid is that I never learned to sing a few good songs to them. I don't like the classic lullaby that goes with Brahm's, but there are plenty of other good ones out there, both classics and newer. If you know a nice gentle Beatles song you can sing that if you want.

 

But once the kid becomes a pre-reader I think avoiding fiction entirely would be tough. Many pre-readers are written to teach language by rhyme and association. That's a lot easier to do in fiction than non-fiction. I remember when my kid was a baby he had a rather stupid board book that went through words that rhymed with duck. Not all of them, mind you, but my friends found it hilarious.

[xixstar]

I would also just consider some value that fiction offers. Use of creative language and descriptive language. The drawing of metaphores and similes. The use of rhyming conventions and alliteration and such. You don't have to read beginning-reader books out loud to little ones, but a lot of good quality children's books have a great deal to offer in the learning to use language and also in ordering thinking and understanding common expressions.

 

I love books and mostly turn to non-fiction books for my own reading. While my girls do enjoy non-fiction books as well, there is a lot of joy and enjoyment in good picture books and good fiction as well. Sometimes it's also just easier to talk about real-life events when framed in a fictional setting or story as well. But that is so far down the road, to get started, just enjoy reading out loud to your baby from whatever you want to read. You've got a lot of time to worry about the rest of the details and it'll all shift and change as you move forward.

[Hunter]

If Jr enjoys a book enough, you might enjoy watching him enjoy the book. Feeling, hearing, and seeing them laugh is heady stuff. Wait and see.

 

I went through some very rigid periods while raising my boys, due to our religion. Literature was almost entirely non-fiction and the Bible. We read a LOT of biographies and Bible stories.

 

Nowadays, with my tutoring students, for cultural literacy I like the ORIGINAL Doubleday hardback What Your _ Grader Needs to Know series grades 1-6. The covers are sponge painted and there are no children on them. There are not pre-school or kindergarten books in the original series. Sometimes I read a full version of the excerpt in the What Your Grader Needs to Know book if the student shows interest. Other times I do occasionally pick a novel to read aloud. I have a Kindle full of Yesterday's Classics ebooks and Heritage History ebooks, that I sometimes read from, to supplement a science or history topic from the What Your Grader Needs to Know series. I wouldn't worry too much.

 

For NOW stock up on the non-fiction. Jr. will let you know what he needs as he needs it. Being pregnant is hard. :grouphug:

[CatholicMom]

I think it's a bit early to lose sleep over this, but it's good you're thinking about it. I wonder if your feelings will change once you have baby in your arms and once he starts to enjoy picture books and pointing at pictures saying "apple!" and what have you. As he grows, the books he enjoys will change, and I wonder if your feelings will, too. It would be an unusual kid who doesn't enjoy fiction.

 

I think a great book for you to read is Honey For a Child's Heart by Gladys Hunt. I don't love every single book she suggests, but she has great lists and can help you narrow down the classics and well-loved picture books. She has book lists for different age groups from baby through teen, I believe. She also discusses the importance and benefits of reading to your child (with a big emphasis on fiction) and discusses ways you can make your home a "reading home."

 

I think it would definitely be a disservice to your child to avoid fiction books, even fictional picture board books like "Guess How Much I Love You." I do think you should look around at the well-loved picture books and board books (to start with) and narrow down what you like the most. I think there's gotta be a certain type of book that you prefer, and your child will definitely enjoy your reading time more if *you* are enjoying it. As he gets older, he will also enjoy non-fiction but of course you want to look for KID's non-fiction books, which are almost always heavily illustrated (my kids love the Usborne First Book of Nature, DK illustrated encyclopedias, etc). But continuing to read fiction to him is essential, in my opinion. I wonder if you will enjoy it more than you think once you do it.

 

If you really can't stomach it when the time comes, there's no harm in sticking to the non-fiction for your own reading with Jr. and having your husband read most of the fiction. But I think it would be sad to miss out on it, honestly.

 

I say try to relax a bit. Read Honey For a Child's Heart, and mull it over. If you're still not feeling it, just relax and wait until Jr. is born. When he starts enjoying children's books and you see how he eagerly snuggles up next to you with great interest, you may find that changing your tune is easier than you thought.

[Hunter]

My younger son did not like most fiction as a younger child. He didn't identify with the characters. He did identify with the Bible heroes and the people in biographies. When he got older he loved Pilgrim's Progress, Shakespeare, Epics, and the bilingual Loeb Classics, though.

 

My ex-husband's uncle was totally confused by fiction. He tried to read it like non-fiction and took it way too seriously. To listen to him torture himself by trying to read and join into book discussions was hilarious.

 

Not everyone loves fiction. Especially highly/profoundly gifted and STEM type people.

[Five More Minutes]

I think that it's too early to worry about this, for the simple reason that you, like many others, may find that parenthood is nothing like what you prepared for! I was profoundly changed by becoming a mother, and some of my opinions and tastes changed along with the experience (or faded into insignificance). I'm homeschooling instead of living out my planned career life, and I never dreamed that would happen, nor that it would be as satisfying as it is. My little people changed me.

 

That said, I still have strong opinions about literature that I'll share. :-) I think that the more stories and poetry a young child can be exposed to, the stronger their reading ability will be in later years. My dh is an English teacher who encounters many students at the hs level who cannot functionally read. One of the greatest barriers that they face at that point is that they simply don't have enough stories in their background to make the connections that they need to understand new texts. They need to go back and learn the fairy tales and myths and Bible stories and nursery rhymes first, which is hard at that age.

 

BUT ... There's nothing that says that YOU have to read those stories. Get family members involved in reading stories to Baby, while you pick up the important nonfiction reading. Just make sure Jr. gets lots and lots of stories and poetry.

[Mergath]

Not everyone loves fiction. Especially highly/profoundly gifted and STEM type people.

 

I think that's a stereotype. Many highly and profoundly gifted people really enjoy reading fiction.

[Mergath]

OP, I think you need to take a step back and breathe. Your child hasn't yet been born, but you seem to be posting frantically, trying to figure out every detail of your homeschooling strategy. You're going to burn yourself out before your kid is even walking. Just enjoy being pregnant, and then when your kid is born, enjoy learning how to be a mom. You can't plan much before you get to know your child and his quirks and learning style. And yes, I figured that out through trial and error. ;)

[AK_Mom4]

Read whatever you like - babies don't care whether it's fiction or non fiction.

 

Its funny to admit now, but I kept a pre-schooler and two toddlers enthralled on a long car ride by reading the owners manual to our car. It's all about the effort that you put into it to make it interesting.

[EKS]

Can you give an example of a classic children's book that you consider "trash"?

[momtoamiracle]

I guess I missed the last sentence that he wasn't born yet.

 

 

I agree - don't stress about it right now! Motherhood can be grueling. i wouldn't add more angst until it was necessary.

 

Read whatever you want for a while, but like was posted, cadence of language is learned with good literature and poetry. It also builds a good foundation for reading. I've read to my son since he was born. He is an excellent reader now, knows how to pause at punctuation, add emphasis from the context, and how to read dialogue. I fully believe it's because of all the reading I've done. and the audiobooks he's listened to.

[Tanikit]

I agree that you should just wait til your child is born - when its your first child you have absolutely no idea how the child will change your life - your whole being, the way you think about things. There are some parents who decide certain things and then stick to them - like my child will sleep in their own room always - whereas other parents think that and then when baby gets there they suddenly find that perhaps it is easier to have them in their rooms after all. The same may or may not be true for your child and you reading books to him - you may find that you get so much joy from your child's smiles when you read Hop on Pop that while you hate the book and never want to hear it again, you still read it to your child every single day 2-3 times a day perhaps, for a month... could happen. Or perhaps you had planned on reading Winnie the Pooh because you thought perhaps you could manage that and then all of a sudden Jr suddenly would rather look at your Car Magazines all day... or you planned on reading your 2 year old a story but right in the middle he poos in his nappy and despite being at the most exciting part you have to just put the book down and clean him up... or you are reading your 3 month old your new copy of a wonderful adult book and he vomits all his milk straight into your book and you throw it in the dustbin (the book not the child) and think that maybe board books with plastic coverings would be better. And then he gets to about 8 months old and chew any book you hand to him - so again maybe a cloth book with pictures of zebras and only one or two words would be ok even if its fiction.

 

Basically all the questions you have asked so far in other threads can be answered like this: "Yes, whatever you have suggested is ok, you could do it and you wouldn't harm your child." You can read just non fiction, you can start school in first grade only, you can teach your child sign language or not (whether he is deaf or not, whether he lives with people who use sign language or not. But until the child is here, you cannot know what you will do - you may know what you think you might do or what you think might work now and maybe it will or maybe it won't - you will only know when you have that baby in your arms - and even then they change so much from birth to one month let alone from birth to a year or two years that what you think you know when your baby is 2 months old will not be what you know when your child is a year - you are responding to a live being with a personality of his own and not only that, you yourself become someone else - you are no longer single - you are responsible for this person who you love more than you can imagine and that changes a lot of your preconceived ideas.

 

You actually may get the answers you want if you type these questions on pregnancy boards with people who do not yet have children and can still understand what you are getting at and what you are thinking about because they are in the same place as you and are perhaps wondering the same things. It is very hard as a first time parent to understand what parents of multiple children are getting at and hard to believe what they say because you have not yet been there. Even for parents of second children it is hard to understand how love can stretch to a second child and how your older one will cope and so on - parents who have been there will tell you its fine, but you don't get it and you still worry til you are in there doing it. Hang in there - when is Jr due?

[ErinE]

I don't know why this matters so much, I have stressed out more about Jr. in the last month than I have anything else before in my life!!! I can't wait to get this kid out of my womb and into my arms!

 

Said in calm, soothing voice: Stop stressing, it's not good for the baby.

 

As far as your other question, you will be shocked at how much your life is going to change when your child comes. You prepare and read and ask questions and stress and worry... And then the child is born and it will be nothing like you imagined. The baby might be easy or sensitive. You might bounce back from childbirth or you'll end up curled on a bed, wondering what the heck happened to your body. You might breeze through the days or suffer emotional difficulties. It varies from person to person, child to child. You cannot predict what's going to happen. It's okay to soak up knowledge, but don't try to control the future. It will get here soon enough.

 

Like many people on this board, I wanted to know it all and plan it all. Prior to becoming a mother, I worked with numbers and spreadsheets all day. I loved order and predictability. After the birth of my first born, I thought I had this parenting thing down. Then, he got older. And I had a second child. A few more years passed, they both grew more, in size and personality, and I had another baby. As I've added to my family, I've realized for all my reading and planning, I can't make my life or my kids fit into orderly boxes. Right now, I try to take it one year at a time.

 

You might discover that "I'll Love You Forever" makes you cry, when right now it's sentimentalist dreck. Reading aloud "The Very Hungry Caterpillar" brings such joy to your toddler that you're willing to suffer through one more read of the glutinous creature. Flipping through "Harold and the Purple Crayon" will create memories while snuggled on the couch (just keep all the crayons out of reach or the memories may not be so warm and fuzzy).

 

You're giving birth to another human being who will have needs, wants, and concerns that may be far different from your own. What if your child has a creative and artsy soul? Will you say no to literature then because you don't like it? Probably not. You'll research curriculum, locate resources, and help your child learn what he loves best. Home education is an extension of parenting. You'll adapt and change to suit your child's personality. Things you swore you would never do, you might end up doing. Never say never, especially when it comes to children.

 

Relax, curl up with your belly and enjoy the remaining months. When the baby comes, love him. Hug him, kiss him, soothe the hurts, foster the joys. There's time enough for everything else.

[boscopup]

There is such a wide variety of books out there. You don't need to read basal readers to your child. Those are for the child to read. You can read good picture books, including history and science topics. ;) Many good quality picture books are written at a 4th-5th grade reading level and are quite enjoyable to read. There will be books that you absolutely hate to read, but your child loves, and you'll grudgingly read them anyway. Cat in the Hat books are that for me... I can only handle one every now and then. My kids LOVE them. And they are learning science from them (after reading one about weather, they went out to the pasture and found a pine cone, then brought it back in to "wash" it and see it close up - sure enough, it did!). I just hate reading them. They're so LONG. :lol:

 

My favorite books to read when my kids were little babies were the Sandra Boynton books. They were actually funny. My oldest had a tradition of reading Horns to Toes and Inbetween (fun little book to play with body parts) and The Going to Bed Book, then we'd nurse and go to sleep. Easy peasy. Every single night. I still have them memorized. :D I actually liked those books and didn't get sick of them. On the other hand, when my kid hands me the one Max and Ruby book we own (it was a gift), I grin and bear it. ;)

 

I've never been much into the sappy books, but I do like funny books and I like plain old good children's stories. I have a new appreciation for these books now that I have kids to read them to. But really, there are good and bad children's books, and you'll probably find something you like. And if not, have Daddy read the fiction and you read the science and history books. There are plenty of children's books on those topics!

[twoxcell]

I know that this sentiment may not be well received on a classical education forum, but I, personally, hate reading literature, fiction and I can't take the idea of reading trash-books to my kid for years on end just so that he will love books.

 

I don't see why you would ever need to read trash-books to your dc. There are thousands of excellent fiction and non fiction books for kids. I don't ever remember reading any book that was trash to my kids and I have read a ton. :huh:

[Mergath]

I don't see why you would ever need to read trash-books to your dc. There are thousands of excellent fiction and non fiction books for kids. I don't ever remember reading any book that was trash to my kids and I have read a ton. :huh:

 

I got the impression she was saying all fiction is "trash." :001_huh:

[Dory]

I think you are jumping ahead on things a little too much worrying about all this yet. Enjoy your baby moments. Those baby moments are so precious, don't ruin them with trying to be perfect. Just relax and enjoy. All the baby needs, is you and your love and time. Get to know his/her little personality. Then you can plan an education around that.

 

As for reading, my oldest ds has never been a huge fiction reader, my dd isn't really much of one either. I require good quality fiction reading though. It helps them learn how to put words together. They get to see how people think and respond to things. They learn about cultures in the past in a way that is hard to learn with just bare facts. The more they read good quality fiction, the more they enjoy it. Now reading time is a fun time for them, not a requirement. I don't read aloud because I enjoy reading the book (seriously, I've read these books before and I'm not the type to read the same book numerous times), but I LOVE reading it to them. Snuggling in with them, talking about new words, seeing them get excited over a good storyline. I LOVE it.

There are so many things that at this point you might look at and see them as not enjoyable and no sane person would do them. Once that little one is in your arms, they really don't matter. Besides, everyone knows mothers aren't sane :tongue_smilie: . You'll be surprised when a few years have passed and the mother that you so carefully planned to be, is so little like the mother you have become. I've been there. I'm a planner.

[boscopup]

You'll be surprised when a few years have passed and the mother that you so carefully planned to be, is so little like the mother you have become.

 

 

Absolutely! In many ways! There are baby decisions that you'll make while pregnant that will turn out to not work for you in reality, even though while pregnant you thought they would be the "best" thing to do for your child (co-sleeping comes to my mind... I wanted to do it, it sounded great, then I had a preemie who was used to sleeping alone in the NICU bed for the first 4 weeks of his life - he slept better alone than in bed with me, and then I realized that *I* can't sleep with a baby next to me, because I can't move, and I usually like to switch between left and right sides throughout the night). The parent/child in our minds are not necessarily what the parent/child in reality end up being. ;)

 

For now, I would recommend focusing on the questions that matter more to you now... like birth options, diaper options, sleeping options, baby carrier options, car seat options, breastfeeding vs. formula feeding, whether to circ or not, whether to vaccinate or not, find a pediatrician for the little guy, etc. Those are the things that you have control over and will affect you and baby very soon, and there is plenty to research about those things! :D

 

Being a mother changes you. You just can't predict how. If you don't read to the kid in the first few months, that's perfectly fine! I didn't really *read* to my kids much until closer to a year old, but I talked to them ALL the time. :)

[Hunter]

When I was a pregnant/new mom, I really liked to be around seasoned moms, and be able to talk about things WAY ahead of where I was currently at. It didn't help me to stress or minutely plan way ahead, but I REALLY needed to be included in chatter about far off topics. It was good for me.

 

I remember one mom who was still having babies, but was homeschooling a 14 year old who was rebuilding her front porch and honestly I was more interested in seeing how she was raising her 14 year old, than what she was doing with her infant. I loved seeing the progression of her children, and seeing how her infant methods led to where her 14 year old was at. I absolutely loved it when she took time for me and just let me be with her and listened to my silly prattle (I was only 18, and that's what 18 year olds do), and just let me be included.

 

I think it's really important that we let pregnant moms be here with us, and not just let them be here, but really make time for them, and honor their need to talk way ahead if they have those needs. I know I had those needs.

 

Mathmarm :grouphug: I'm here any time you want to talk ahead of where you are at. I understand. I was like that. It's been 27 years, but I still remember the 14 year old boy building the porch, but I can't even remember how old or what sex the woman's last baby was.

 

HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY MATHMARM!!!!!! :party:

[Walking-Iris]

I'm just going to be honest. I can't even fathom the thought or idea of trying to reconcile homeschooling with such a dislike of books. Books of all genres are so much a part of my family's life. They are as important as air and food.

 

I can't even offer any advice here. Just the language. "trash, inane, silly, tripe..." Honestly if a person felt this strongly about the idea of reading aloud to their child...I'd think long and hard about why one would want to homeschool to begin with. Jeez even if a child did go to public school there is enough evidence showing that the child's success can correlate to the parents involvement.

 

I couldn't imagine denying my child the experience. Non-fiction is good too of course. But I would worry that the extreme dislike attitude would rub off onto the child and then what?

 

I can't even imagine such a dislike of books so I have no words of advice.

 

I think it's totally fine for pregnant moms to talk on a homeschooling forum btw. I read a lot about homeschool when I was pregnant. BUT I certainly still can't imagine such a distaste for literature.

[twoxcell]

I got the impression she was saying all fiction is "trash." :001_huh:

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing but it was too unbelievable. :confused1:

[Hunter]

I've frequently encountered a distaste for fiction among some religious groups and among some gifted, aspie, and STEM individuals. I was earlier accused of stereotyping, but...I've seen this a LOT among these groups of people that I personally know. I'm just used to being around people who include VERY little and sometimes NO fiction in their own and their children's lives.

 

The children I know have turned out to be very good readers and speakers. Some of them are a bit rigid and literal, but I think they would be anyway, even if they read fiction, considering their environments and genetics. Many are taught all the literary techniques and figurative language they need with the Bible, hymns, biographies, and other non-fiction. This was how my own boys were predominantly taught these subjects.

 

There are also people that only teach the Great Books and don't call vintage stories from the 1800s "classics". They let their children read those vintage books and modern books if they want to in their own free time, but don't TEACH them as "classics". These people call their teaching method "Classical" and often teach a lot of Latin and Greek.

 

I was very rigid with what fiction was taught in our "school", but my boys were allowed to read pretty much anything they wanted on their own time. Sometimes I read these books aloud as entertainment, but they were not "school".

[mom2bee]

Please note that I am not a mom yet, let alone an official homeschooler.

I say read what ever you are most comfortable reading to your kid when the time comes. I read a lot of childrens books but it isn't due to a love of literature, I am a reading coach and phonics tutor, so I like to have an idea of what books a child could read and what books allow a good practice or which phonics skills, even if they aren't 'early readers'. Teaching kids to read well is a passion and hobby of mine, I don't make any money doing it, I do it because I love it.

 

 

I say get counting and board books if you love math and want to share that with your kid(s) in the future. Reading fiction is fine, I am a much bigger fan of fiction than I am of non-fiction. I too find many childrens books annoying, but I can bear reading them.

 

congrats on your new baby.

[mom2bee]

Also, mathmarm, it kind of seems as though you have the equivalent of mathphobia for books, lol. It is not that bad, just take things one day at a time and try to start small. A little, teeny, tiny bit done each and everyday will do far more than a great deal done for a short stretch of time once and a while.

Are you familiar with the idea of habit-training? Teaching yourself to do stuff even if you don't like it is an important skill.

 

There are parents who hate and fear math, yet still manage to homeschool or just be supportive of their childs education. So why can't you be a parent who hates childrens books but still manages to homeschool or be supportive of your childs education? You can do it!

[forty-two]

I've frequently encountered a distaste for fiction among some religious groups and among some gifted, aspie, and STEM individuals. I was earlier accused of stereotyping, but...I've seen this a LOT among these groups of people that I personally know. I'm just used to being around people who include VERY little and sometimes NO fiction in their own and their children's lives.

 

This is interesting :) (as was your whole post), as it is very different from my own experience-driven stereotypes about gifted and STEM individuals. My family and friends fit the gifted/STEM = sci-fi/fantasy fan stereotypes (aside from my dad, who is mystery and hard sci-fi only - no fantasy - he's the closest to what you describe, yet he enjoys plenty of fiction, including speculative fiction, so long as it is rooted in science). I wonder how much of what you have noticed is more due to the religious environment (which is very different from what I grew up in) than being gifted/STEM.

 

I appreciate your offering up an alternative POV - I enjoy your posts :).

 

Wrt the OP, personally I would try to learn to appreciate *something* about fiction :grouphug:. I am actually doing the same wrt poetry. I simply do *not* get poetry, it falls completely flat for me (except for one brief shining moment at the end of our senior year poetry unit). (And touching on the above discussion, this is very typical of my personality type.). But I believe poetry, like fiction, is important, plus I so want to feel what poetry lovers feel when they read a poem - it might not come naturally to me (as love of fiction and stories has), but I refuse to let personality and innate talents be destiny, kwim?

 

So I've been working on learning to appreciate it (since if I don't like it, I certainly can't pass on that non-existent love to my dc ;)). Mixed bag thus far, as when I finally started feeling a poem, I felt a bunch of strong negative emotions and obsessed and angsted for a few hours over it, which, while success, was not that sort of success that makes one want to continue ;). But I am persevering, and have learned to really enjoy the feel of nursery rhymes in my mouth - baby steps in playing with language - plus I've found a few children's poems by good poets that I enjoy. A whole new world is starting to open up to me :).

[warneral]

Motherhood will change you in ways you cannot imagine (when someone told me this when I was pregnant, I was indignant).

 

Give it time, enjoy the baby, and let go of perfectionist if feelings and expectations.

 

 

Your boy may love stories so much, that you will learn to love them. Or not!

 

Best wishes!

[Walking-Iris]

I've frequently encountered a distaste for fiction among some religious groups and among some gifted, aspie, and STEM individuals. I was earlier accused of stereotyping, but...I've seen this a LOT among these groups of people that I personally know. I'm just used to being around people who include VERY little and sometimes NO fiction in their own and their children's lives.

 

The children I know have turned out to be very good readers and speakers. Some of them are a bit rigid and literal, but I think they would be anyway, even if they read fiction, considering their environments and genetics. Many are taught all the literary techniques and figurative language they need with the Bible, hymns, biographies, and other non-fiction. This was how my own boys were predominantly taught these subjects.

 

 

 

Again...not really. Maybe in your experience, but my oldest ds is on the spectrum and a voracious reader of children's fiction, highly creative and bright. Loves art and music and poetry. I don't know what STEM individuals are. My understanding was that it was a method of education not a diagnosis?

 

Besides. regardless of diagnosis or personality type, there are certain things people ought to know something about to be considered literate and well educated (okay IMO although it's not just opinion). And some of that is literature that is best to be exposed to as a child.

 

For the OP. I've been thinking about this thread. It seems odd to me that in the thousands upon thousands of children's literature selections that none of them would be considered worthy to read.

[forty-two]

I don't know what STEM individuals are. My understanding was that it was a method of education not a diagnosis?

I took "STEM individuals" as another way of referring to math/science-oriented people. I think of STEM as an educational focus - science, technology, engineering, math - as opposed to a particular method of teaching those subjects.

 

Besides. regardless of diagnosis or personality type, there are certain things people ought to know something about to be considered literate and well educated (okay IMO although it's not just opinion). And some of that is literature that is best to be exposed to as a child.

 

I agree. I think of C.S. Lewis in The Abolition of Man, where he is commenting on his dislike of interacting with small children as being a fault in *himself*, not a fault in small children. That enjoying children is a *good* thing, and being unable to enjoy them as they ought to be enjoyed is a fault (even though it was a fault Lewis expressed no interest in remedying at that point, he still saw it as a net *lack* in himself, worth remedying). I know I see my inability to appreciate poetry as a fault in *me* - the fact I've rarely met a poem I like says far more about me than about the intrinsic worth of poetry ;). Poetry is a *good* thing, and I want to learn to appreciate its worth :).

 

Likewise I think fiction and stories have intrinsic worth, and thus learning to appreciate them is a good thing, worthy of effort :). I do see a large part of education as learning to appreciate that which is worthy of appreciation. While undoubtedly I will have to outsource some things that I am incapable of valuing as they ought to be valued, I am always striving to remedy those lacks in myself as much as I can. If poetry is good for my dc to learn to appreciate, then it is good for *me* to learn to appreciate, too ;). Lifelong learning in action :).

[8filltheheart]

 

Likewise I think fiction and stories have intrinsic worth, and thus learning to appreciate them is a good thing, worthy of effort :). I do see a large part of education as learning to appreciate that which is worthy of appreciation. While undoubtedly I will have to outsource some things that I am incapable of valuing as they ought to be valued, I am always striving to remedy those lacks in myself as much as I can. If poetry is good for my dc to learn to appreciate, then it is good for *me* to learn to appreciate, too ;). Lifelong learning in action :).

 

I wasn't going to join this discussion until I read your 2 responses b/c they resonate with me so much!

 

I really disliked poetry until a few yrs ago. I have a child that loves poetry. She wants to incorporate a lot of poetry into our lit studies. She also loves Shakespeare, another area that was not a favorite.

 

Through actually reading them and studying them with her, I have really grown to appreciate both. It was definitely a lack in me. She has a much greater appreciation of what is truly beautiful. She loves words and the beautiful crafting of words is joy to her.

[mathmarm]

I didn't mean to offend any one, I am going to make some clarifying remarks to my own original post

Will reading nonfiction to him help him to learn to read and love books the way that literature will? I know that this sentiment may not be well received on a classical education forum, but I, personally, hate reading literature, fiction and I can't take the idea of reading trash-books to my kid for years on end just so that he will love books.

*I* hate dislike story'fiction / literature, but I recognize that this isn't the best way to feel and I know that this isn't good, especially in a society where reading, comprehension are so valued and required for personal fulfillment and even financial success. This is a big reason why I wan't my son to love books, to feel confident about his abilities to read and enjoy books and to be able to appreciate stories for their own intrinsic worth.

I have looked at about 50 children's classic books and I can't see myself actually reading them with my son as he is growing up, I don't like them at all. I didn't enjoy such stories even when I was a kid! They seemed inane and they drove me insane.

Should've been past-tense, often times the books that I read at school were filled with silly characters doing foolish stuff and it was supposed to be 'charming' or amusing but I couldn't stand them. I didn't like Pippi, Pooh, Curious George the Alden Kids and a host of others. I didn't find them entertaining and being required/forced to read about them at school was draining and frustrating. By the time I was in 5th grade, I was done. My class in highschool was required to read some of the typical classics and I begrudgingly skimmed every-other page. A friend read the stories and told me what happened and I tutored her in math all through highschool.

My Husband isn't nearly as bothered by typical childrens books as I am, and he is willing to read to Jr. story books on a daily basis (we've already bought quite a few, but most of them are a 1st-3rd grade reading level) but I want to read to him also.

 

I feel that its important my son get exposed to books even before he is being taught to read, and would like to begin building a library for him (Jr. is my first child and will be born at the end of the summer). He already has quite a few living math books and I am planning to buy him more, but are there a good series of nonfiction books that I can begin buying for him?

Jr. already has some typical K-2 beginning reader books (because they come on tape!) like Frog and Toad, Henry and Mudge, Ramona etc. and I know that there are supposed to be good picture books too, but I haven't found any that I can see myself reading to him, and it breaks my heart. I want my little guy to read books and to love books, I would like him to have fond memories of his mama reading to him on a regular basis, but I cringe at the idea of reading books that I consider horrible to him for years until he is old enough to appreciate a greater variety of books.

 

I know that there is a method to the madness that is basal readers and silly-rhyme books but I can't take the madness that delivers the method. Should I suck it up and just buy normal kids books for Jr.? Is it okay to read only non-fiction to my son? (I have a friend who teaches 2nd grade and she says it will not feed his imagination the way stories do, it sounds like tripe to me, I am not sure how aware many of the homeschooling families are aware on these boards, but there is a great deal of educational jargon and newer philosophy that is really a lot of pyscho-babble and buzz words. I consider those terms/philosophies to be tripe. but little kids are not my specialty at all.) I place a strong value on imagination, character traits and knowledge and would like to instill a sense of imagination in Jr. and any other kids Hubby and I will have, but I don't know if I can take several years with the childrens books that I know of.

 

I am sorry that my words were harsh or offensive, I didn't mean to upset anyone. :(.

For what its worth, we are just exploring the idea of homeschooling but are leaning more toward the idea of public school for elementary and homeschool for middle-school. We are still exploring the idea of whether or not we'll use preschool and if he'll enroll in Kindergarten. In our state, Kindergarten is currently still optional.

[Hunter]

Should've been past-tense, often times the books that I read at school were filled with silly characters doing foolish stuff and it was supposed to be 'charming' or amusing but I couldn't stand them. I didn't like Pippi, Pooh, Curious George the Alden Kids and a host of others. I didn't find them entertaining and being required/forced to read about them at school was draining and frustrating. By the time I was in 5th grade, I was done. My class in highschool was required to read some of the typical classics and I begrudgingly skimmed every-other page. A friend read the stories and told me what happened and I tutored her in math all through highschool.

 

Jr. already has some typical K-2 beginning reader books (because they come on tape!) like Frog and Toad, Henry and Mudge, Ramona etc. and I know that there are supposed to be good picture books too, but I haven't found any that I can see myself reading to him, and it breaks my heart. I want my little guy to read books and to love books, I would like him to have fond memories of his mama reading to him on a regular basis, but I cringe at the idea of reading books that I consider horrible to him for years until he is old enough to appreciate a greater variety of books.

 

Mathmarm :grouphug:

 

I've been putting off responding again to this thread, because I have so much to say that I don't know where to start, and I also wanted to think a bit.

 

My youngest son reacted to the these books the same way you did :lol: You are not alone. He referred to them as torture when he was trying to be polite, and was a bit saltier with his descriptions when he wasn't. Fifth grade was the breaking point for him too. That is so funny that you mention 5th grade.

 

I remember one night having climbed up on my little boy's top bunk bed to read to him. He was suffering from a migraine because he was so stressed out. I was reading through a collection of biographies about famous men as children that he had developed a taste for. He would lie with his eyes closed because he was is so much pain and just listen to me read.

 

This night, when we were a few volumes into the collection, he teared up and said to me, "Mommy, these boys are just like me!" He could identify with these real and very gifted children, but not the ones in the fiction he was being forced to read at school.

 

You have brought up a valid question and started an interesting thread. You are not alone in questioning the value of the literature that has become standard fare for children. I'll try and write more tomorrow.

[Rosie_0801]

This sounds like a challenge. A thread titled "Let's find a fiction book that Mathmarm won't *completely* hate" would turn into a monster. :p

[Hunter]

This sounds like a challenge. A thread titled "Let's find a fiction book that Mathmarm won't *completely* hate" would turn into a monster. :p

 

 

How about Ender's Game? Ender's Game for gifted children has spawned entire threads at many forums over the decades. :lol: I think my son was so-so about the book.

 

My son's favorite fiction as a pre-teen was Pilgrim's Progress. I remember him getting in trouble for using Jurassic Park for a 4th grade book report. As a teen I remember Dryden's translation of the Aeneid being one of his favorites, and yes, it HAD to be Dryden. :lol:

 

I always find it fascinating when fiction-haters do find a novel they like.

[Hunter]

I want to start to tackle the topic of conservatives that choose to limit fiction in the curriculum. The Bluedorns have very strong opinions about choosing literature. And this family isn't even talking about vintage 1800s "classics" or modern "classics", and does not limit literature to fiction. They are even limiting "Great Books" that are nonfiction, and believe themselves to be classical homeschoolers.

 

Is Classical Education reading Homer and Plato, or Caesar and Cicero? Many classical educators would say yes – reading such literature is an essential part of a classical education. But, does an unbridled focus upon classical – Greek and Roman – literature lead us toward Christ?

We define a Classical Education differently. We pursue a classical model and a classical method for education – namely, the Trivium – but we have only an incidental interest in the classical humanist literature. We do not want to pursue these three tools of learning – classical languages, skill in thinking, and skill in communication – so that we can really read Homer and really think like Aristotle and really speak like Demosthenes. As Christians, we want to learn languages, logic, and rhetoric so that we can really read, and think, and speak – period!

[Hunter]

The Literary Study Bible and the other books by Leland Ryken and other authors are used by some conservatives to teach literature with the Bible instead of novels.

 

How to Read the BIble as Literature

 

Words of Delight

 

Reading the BIble as Literature

 

Character study worksheet from Students of the Word curriculum.

[SarahW]

I want to start to tackle the topic of conservatives that choose to limit fiction in the curriculum. The Bluedorns have very strong opinions about choosing literature. And this family isn't even talking about vintage 1800s "classics" or modern "classics", and does not limit literature to fiction. They are even limiting "Great Books" that are nonfiction, and believe themselves to be classical homeschoolers.

 

Is Classical Education reading Homer and Plato, or Caesar and Cicero? Many classical educators would say yes – reading such literature is an essential part of a classical education. But, does an unbridled focus upon classical – Greek and Roman – literature lead us toward Christ?

We define a Classical Education differently. We pursue a classical model and a classical method for education – namely, the Trivium – but we have only an incidental interest in the classical humanist literature. We do not want to pursue these three tools of learning – classical languages, skill in thinking, and skill in communication – so that we can really read Homer and really think like Aristotle and really speak like Demosthenes. As Christians, we want to learn languages, logic, and rhetoric so that we can really read, and think, and speak – period!

 

 

Hunter, that link takes me to Penguin's Aeneid.

 

I have great sympathy with the logoi spermatikoi idea, so my only beef with most classical education literature lists is that it is is too DWM. I think the spermatikoi is found far and wide.

 

"Classical humanist literature" is one thing. But I get confused when I see people complain about reading literature like that, and then their booklist is full of authors like Doyle, Twain, and London. :huh:

[Hunter]

Hunter, that link takes me to Penguin's Aeneid.

 

I have great sympathy with the logoi spermatikoi idea, so my only beef with most classical education literature lists is that it is is too DWM. I think the spermatikoi is found far and wide.

 

"Classical humanist literature" is one thing. But I get confused when I see people complain about reading literature like that, and then their booklist is full of authors like Doyle, Twain, and London. :huh:

 

Penguin is the publisher of that book, but the translation of the Latin is done by Dryden back in the 1600s. The Dryden translation is more difficult to read than newer prose translations. As you can see here, there are all sorts of translations of the Aeneid.

 

I'm not personally agreeing with any of the different flavors of conservative Christian shunning of all fiction or some fiction, I just agree with the idea that children can be successfully homeschooled without any/much fiction, and that there are a wide variety of very different reasons that parent have for sticking to all/mostly non-fiction.

 

This morning I am rereading Teaching the Trivium. Chapter 8 is entirely on choosing literature. Just because these authors reduce their amount of fiction for religious reasons doesn't mean that even non Christians cannot learn more about alternative ways of teaching English from this chapter.

 

I believe that I become the best teacher possible by observing many of the most radical families. Not copying all that they do, but observing what they do, and comparing it to completely different families, that do something similar for entirely different reasons. I believe that our culture as a whole, and the subculture of the homeschooling community, and even the individual subcultures of the homeschooling subculture can learn from each other.

 

Sarah, I get as confused as you by some reading lists. But...I...enjoy and support diversity :D What does DWM mean? EDIT: Dead White Male?

[LaughingCat]

The thing is, it's not about you - it's about doing something for your child. Because let me tell you, no matter how much you love a particular book (fiction/non-fiction, whatever)- after you read it to your child 100 times, you might find you don't love it so much anymore LOL! Not to mention that they don't pick the ones you love best to be read the most anyway.

 

And "Frog and Toad" and "Henry and Mudge" are not read alouds or picture books. They are first readers. A whole different genre, purposefully written for someone learning to read NOT to be read to. Because really, I love fiction and I don't enjoy reading any of those books.

[SarahW]

Penguin is the publisher of that book, but the translation of the Latin is done by Dryden back in the 1600s. The Dryden translation is more difficult to read than newer prose translations. As you can see here, there are all sorts of translations of the Aeneid.

 

I'm not personally agreeing with any of the different flavors of conservative Christian shunning of all fiction or some fiction, I just agree with the idea that children can be successfully homeschooled without any/much fiction, and that there are a wide variety of very different reasons that parent have for sticking to all/mostly non-fiction.

 

This morning I am rereading Teaching the Trivium. Chapter 8 is entirely on choosing literature. Just because these authors reduce their amount of fiction for religious reasons doesn't mean that even non Christians cannot learn more about alternative ways of teaching English from this chapter.

 

I believe that I become the best teacher possible by observing many of the most radical families. Not copying all that they do, but observing what they do, and comparing it to completely different families, that do something similar for entirely different reasons. I believe that our culture as a whole, and the subculture of the homeschooling community, and even the individual subcultures of the homeschooling subculture can learn from each other.

 

Sarah, I get as confused as you by some reading lists. But...I...enjoy and support diversity :D What does DWM mean? EDIT: Dead White Male?

 

 

Yes, Dead white men. I understand "foundation of western civilization" well enough, but I don't understand when it ignores things like Germanic law codes (yeah, they were all white men too, it's just a term, I'm not actually a racist or gender-supremacist :) ).

 

I've honestly missed the Bluedorns, so I thought that was what you were linking to. I googled them quite easily enough though - wow, lots of info on their site.

 

Imo, storytelling is a long-established human custom, and is a grand way to articulate values such as culture, values, ethics, and societal goals. I see the danger in people taking CM methods to the extreme and trying to put everything into a narrative to make it have value (is Hammurabi's code a narrative? nope). Likewise, I see the danger in choosing stories rather indiscriminately (op. cit.)

 

Storytelling today, though, has been pretty bastardized. I have seen more than a few complaints that publishers will publish any Dick, Jane, and Harry's book, instead of pouring energy into encouraging people like Melville to turn in their manuscripts. When there's a glut of bad stories it's more difficult to to find the good ones. That's just one issue. Another issue is that modernism has gutted our ability to think allegorically and analogically. The Romans would have thought the question "do you really think two boys suckled a wolf?" to be a rather odd question - that really didn't matter. But we today find meaning in only the most literal layer of the text, which paralyzes the ability of a story to delve into deeper ideas.

 

All this to say - I think storytelling is important, but most of what churns through the scholastic book racks fails to be good at storytelling in the classic sense, and in order to get to that sense today we need to do some work, and not get bogged down in reading reams of fiction indiscriminately.

 

Not that regular old popular fiction is bad, entertainment value is worthwhile (I read plenty of fiction to be entertained myself). But is "fiction" necessary? I say yes, but heavily qualified.

 

For children, I think that good stories are important to impress the idea of what is glorious. Later, they can explore that idea through scientific reasoning and logical deductions, but until they have the knowledge and skills to do that, storytelling seems to be the best way to introduce it.

 

So, for the OP, I don't think you'll do your kid any harm at all by ignoring books like Curious George. But I don't think all stories should be ignored. If you can't find any books you can stand, you can tell stories from your own life, or your grandmother's life.

[Kathryn]

The thing is, it's not about you - it's about doing something for your child. Because let me tell you, no matter how much you love a particular book (fiction/non-fiction, whatever)- after you read it to your child 100 times, you might find you don't love it so much anymore LOL! Not to mention that they don't pick the ones you love best to be read the most anyway.

 

And "Frog and Toad" and "Henry and Mudge" are not read alouds or picture books. They are first readers. A whole different genre, purposefully written for someone learning to read NOT to be read to. Because really, I love fiction and I don't enjoy reading any of those books.

 

 

This. Being a mom isn't about enjoying yourself. I don't like math. Or poetry. At all. But I recognize that in a well-rounded education, these topics will be present. I certainly didn't like the first few years of reading to DS, but the payoff has been huge and I'm so glad that we did it.

[Alte Veste Academy]

For what its worth, we are just exploring the idea of homeschooling but are leaning more toward the idea of public school for elementary and homeschool for middle-school.

 

Well, likewise, for what it's worth, you should read to your little one no matter where he attends school. :tongue_smilie:

 

I get not liking bad children's books, but there are so many choices it is hard to imagine you can't find anything to like. A lot of what is out there is tripe. You just need to branch out more. As LaughingCat mentioned, the books you specified by name aren't exactly literature. Readers have a purpose, but they do not necessarily sing to the soul. Mostly they do not. LOL Curious George is probably a classic because of the character, as I don't think it is particularly well-written. You should consider hitting the library with some lists in hand. Or pour yourself a lovely beverage and sit down for an afternoon of "Look Inside" on Amazon. Find a book that makes your eyes almost roll out of your head? Just put it back on the shelf or click the x to close the window.

 

The thing is, it's not about you - it's about doing something for your child.

 

I agreed with the whole post, but especially with this. Changing diapers, cleaning up spit-up and barf, nursing through cracked nipples, getting up what seems like 1000x a night in a stupor of exhaustion, disciplining for the bajillionth time on any particular day... I could go on. I could make a ridiculously long list of unpleasant things that are worth doing. Think of it this way: I do think you will find reading lit aloud more enjoyable than these examples, no? :lol:

 

I will tell you, I have read a seemingly infinite number of non-fiction "fact books" to my kids over the years, even though I don't particularly like them (the books, not the kids :tongue_smilie:). The things they know...the connections they have made and continue to make...the reading they now do on their own... It was so totally and completely worth my time. In retrospect, it would have been pretty selfish of me to only read to my kids what I loved. They are different people, after all, with their own natures, preferences, opinions, destinies... What you read and what you don't read to your child will help form who he is. I would caution you not to truncate his experience. Do look for the very best books though. I promise that there are options out there for you.

 

Try these lists (the second being a list if lists, LOL):

 

http://www.classical-homeschooling.org/celoop/1000.html

 

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/reading_lists.htm

 

Don't focus on what you dislike (which may well be the majority). Look for the jewels.

[Hunter]

Why does storytelling have to be fiction?

 

I tell stories all the time that are true. Truth is often stranger than fiction, and often more interesting. When I really get going, telling things I hold back here, I have held entire rooms captive with my stories.

 

I believe that there is a non-fiction replacement for every fictional need. I'm not against using fiction, I just don't believe it's necessary for all families to teach it.

 

Most of the time, when I do teach fiction, I teach it as an art, not a 3R. I approach it similar to introducing a painting. I've gone through periods of teaching literature as most here do, and I've gone through periods of rigidly not teaching it all, for different reasons at different times. My life has been eventful and my teaching philosophies adapted to the influences of my world at the time.

 

I enjoy a good fictional story like many here, but my favorite stories are often true. And watching my neighbor a couple weeks ago laugh so hard at a story I was telling, that he was clawing so hard at the wall trying to hold himself up, that I thought he was going to climb up it. I know that others love the truth as much as fiction.