Is patriotism a good thing?

[Crimson Wife]

I've spent time in Europe, including a summer as an au pair in France. It's a nice place to visit, but I would not agree that it has a higher quality of life. Maybe Western European countries have a better social safety net for the poor, but there aren't nearly the same kind of opportunities as there are here. They have chosen greater societal equality but from what I've observed they have done so by bringing the upper-middle-class and affluent down as much as by bringing the poor up. There's a reason why my DH's business school classmates who are originally from Western Europe have nearly all stayed here in the U.S. rather than returned home (and those who have returned almost all are in London).

[Mergath]

I've spent time in Europe, including a summer as an au pair in France. It's a nice place to visit, but I would not agree that it has a higher quality of life. Maybe Western European countries have a better social safety net for the poor, but there aren't nearly the same kind of opportunities as there are here. They have chosen greater societal equality but from what I've observed they have done so by bringing the upper-middle-class and affluent down as much as by bringing the poor up. There's a reason why my DH's business school classmates who are originally from Western Europe have nearly all stayed here in the U.S. rather than returned home (and those who have returned almost all are in London).

 

 

And almost all of these countries have better schools, better health care, better support and leave policies for parents, smarter and healthier citizenry, and on and on. Obviously they're doing something (or more likely many things) right.

[SarahW]

I've spent time in Europe, including a summer as an au pair in France. It's a nice place to visit, but I would not agree that it has a higher quality of life. Maybe Western European countries have a better social safety net for the poor, but there aren't nearly the same kind of opportunities as there are here. They have chosen greater societal equality but from what I've observed they have done so by bringing the upper-middle-class and affluent down as much as by bringing the poor up. There's a reason why my DH's business school classmates who are originally from Western Europe have nearly all stayed here in the U.S. rather than returned home (and those who have returned almost all are in London).

 

In my husband's view, the poor in America are "stuck" more than they are in his home country.

 

European societ(ies) and American society are different. Putting one directly into the other would never work. But I think it is worthwhile to look at what other countries are doing and see if what they're doing offers a better approach.

[Crimson Wife]

And almost all of these countries have better schools, better health care, better support and leave policies for parents, smarter and healthier citizenry, and on and on. Obviously they're doing something (or more likely many things) right.

 

 

They may have more uniform quality schools, healthcare, etc. but our best schools, doctors & hospitals, etc. are far better. I do think that our society needs to do a better job providing a safety net to the poor- just not by sacrificing what we already excel at. Giving everyone middling services may improve things for the poor but I would not agree that it would make things "better" overall. Right now we have a certain amount of truly excellent services and a certain amount of bad ones. The U.S. should improve the bad ones without harming the excellent ones.

[stripe]

It makes my husband cringe as well.

 

It doesn't bother me in everyday life because when are adults supposed to pledge allegiance, anyway? Seems to be just kids. But since I visited countries where the dictator/leader's photo is prominently displayed absolutely everywhere, the pledge seems rather benign.

 

Of course it's a good thing. How could one be a citizen of a country and not be patriotic? Why would you not want to protect and defend the country of which you are a citizen? It is not that you ignore any problems; it is that you recognize any problems and decide to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

 

There are many people who love their culture but despise their country, often because of corrupt and violent leadership. I think you will find plenty of people who love India, Syria, China, or Somalia, for example, but feel that they cannot, no matter how hard they try, effect any change. They will merely be squashed trying, or die of exhaustion. The idea that, with hard work and determination, change can promptly occur does not necessarily translate well in other countries. There is a lot of corruption in the world that stops attempts at improvement dead in its tracks because the powerful are thriving on maintaining the status quo. Some people lose heart. There are inspiring examples of people who do amazing things, though, such as Dr Hawa Abdi in Somalia, so all hope is not lost. Maybe.

[stripe]

Giving everyone middling services may improve things for the poor but I would not agree that it would make things "better" overall.

 

I am not sure the typical European school is "middling," though. However, there is a great deal of poverty and unemployment among immigrants and their descendants in Europe that is often forgotten about when discussing them; France, for example, has been shown to be fairly discriminatory towards those of North African origin, and in studies with identical CVs of people with French vs Algerian names, employees avoided the Algerian named job seekers like the plague.

[MercyA]

It doesn't bother me in everyday life because when are adults supposed to pledge allegiance, anyway? Seems to be just kids.

 

In my rural community, I've seen it done in churches (!) and at all our co-op meetings. Almost all adults and children participate. As a Christian, I have several problems with the pledge:

 

1. My first allegiance is to Christ. I can't in good conscience pledge my allegiance to a fallible human government which may ask me to act contrary to my faith and which may be responsible for grave evil.

2. I do not believe I should make oaths of any kind (Matthew 5:34-37).

3. I believe it is a lie to affirm that there is currently "liberty and justice for all" in America.

 

I mean no offense to anyone; just sharing my perspective here. Peace to all.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

They may have more uniform quality schools, healthcare, etc. but our best schools, doctors & hospitals, etc. are far better. I do think that our society needs to do a better job providing a safety net to the poor- just not by sacrificing what we already excel at. Giving everyone middling services may improve things for the poor but I would not agree that it would make things "better" overall. Right now we have a certain amount of truly excellent services and a certain amount of bad ones. The U.S. should improve the bad ones without harming the excellent ones.

 

 

The bolded is a fairly strong statement - what evidence do you have to support it?

[Laura Corin]

They may have more uniform quality schools, healthcare, etc. but our best schools..... are far better.

 

I refer you to the international university comparison here. For a population 1/5th of that of the US, the UK didn't do badly.

 

ETA: in top five: US two, UK three. In top ten: US six, UK four. Meanwhile, the highest tuition for UK and EU residents is £9,000 per annum, with most degrees only taking three years. £27,000 for a degree at a university that ranks in the top five in the world. That's excellence and affordability in one package. There are bursaries and scholarships for those on low incomes.

 

Laura

[Crimson Wife]

I am not sure the typical European school is "middling," though.

 

 

Why do our universities dominate the world rankings? And I would say that our country's top private and selective public K-12 schools are probably among the best in the world as well.

[Crimson Wife]

Even if this were true and we could all agree on what makes the best the best, it is not that the majority of people have access to the best. So who cares that there are some who may rank among the best in the world.

 

I don't feel better about my mediocre care knowing that someone out there is the best.

 

 

I'd rather keep the best and work on improving the rest than having a uniformly so-so system like the Europeans. Inequality per se isn't the real problem- the problem is lack of access to decent services by the poor. If the poor got ok services, who cares if the wealthier get excellent services?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

Why do our universities dominate the world rankings? And I would say that our country's top private and selective public K-12 schools are probably among the best in the world as well.

 

 

Wait.

 

You said "They may have more uniform quality schools, healthcare, etc. but our best schools, doctors & hospitals, etc. are far better."

 

Now you are back tracking and saying our private and selective public K-12 schools are "among the best in the world". I agree with that statement, but is quite different than saying "our best are far better". What evidence do you have that the "best" health care professionals are "better" than the best in say, the UK? Canada?

 

I believe it is a bit of a stretch to rely on "our best is better" with no evidence when we can see that outcomes for education and health care across the board in other nations does appear to be superior to ours.

[Spy Car]

The fact that there is even serious debate over the value of patriotism and loyalty to one's country is one of the reasons I homeschool. I don't see this as a liberal vs. conservative thing because I know plenty of liberals who agree that the U.S. is the best country in the world. But somehow the virtue of patriotism has become politicized and therefore un-P.C. among certain folks. Yes, we are citizens of the world but that doesn't mean we have to buy into the whole cultural relativism thing. I am proud to be an American and while I don't always like what our government does, that does not diminish my patriotism.

 

 

So, serious question, is your conclusion that "American patriotism" is uniquely good and right and true, because we (and we alone) are the best country in the world, and therefore "patriotism" elsewhere is either of a second-rate nature, or a deluded feeling of pride/allegiance to an inferior nation?

 

Are citizens of Germany, or Mexico, or Burkina Faso right (or wrong) to feel patriotic about their countries? Or should they adopt feelings of "American patriotism" over pride (or even allegiance and loyalty) to their home nation?

 

Bill

[LucyStoner]

I don't have an issue with patriotism. I do have an issue with xenophobia and nationalism. IME, many people who chide other people for not being patriotic are really more xenophobic than patriotic.

 

I would consider myself patriotic but you won't find me plastering my car with flags either.

 

At my political meetings we say the pledge, but there are a noticeable number of people not saying either "under God" or "with liberty and justice for all". :lol:

[Unicorn.]

I think it depends on your definition of patriotic. Nationalism is alive and well and is often confused with patriotism. If patriotism is equated with pride in your country of citizenship then I am not patriotic.

 

I teach my kids to see the world through borderless eyes. They may like the place they live, but I want them to be just as horrified when a bomb takes the lives of people on the other side of the world as they would be when a bomb kills people in the USA. As a Christian, I believe we shouldn't owe allegiance to any one country. because our citizenship is in heaven.

 

 

My dc are very patriotic, and they are completely appalled and horrified when a bomb goes off anywhere, in any country. Or any injustice anywhere. Why do you think being patriotic equates to not caring about others in other countries or wanting to make the world a better place?

[stripe]

In my rural community, I've seen it done in churches (!) and at all our co-op meetings. Almost all adults and children participate.

 

Fascinating! Thanks for sharing; I had no idea.

 

Around me, there has been a rising push to have children's mandatory recitation of it at school, but I haven't heard of any movement to extend the matter to adults, say, at work or places of leisure.

[TracyP]

I consider myself quite patriotic. I also think America is far from perfect and I care deeply about what happens in other parts of the world. This is not at all contradictory in my mind. :confused: It is like my family. They are far from perfect and lord knows they are not The Best, but I still love them and defend them - while acknowledging some of the bonehead things they've done. ;) I think that is a healthy way to view your family and a healthy way to view your country. (no matter what country is "yours")

[Spy Car]

I happen to believe that the insertion of the phrase "under God" into the pledge in the 1950s was (and is) an unconstitutional infringement of one of the great core values of the American experiment, namely the "separation of church and state."

 

The inclusion of this phrase makes the act of reciting it an ironically "unpatriotic act" in my way of thinking, so I personally opt out of reciting the Pledge of Allegience on patriotic grounds. I love our country and have the utmost respect for our Constitution. I don't think we honor our ideals by having a clearly unconstitutional phrase in our pledge.

 

I respect that I may have a minority opinion on this, but I believe it is the correct one.

 

Bill

[MercyA]

Around me, there has been a rising push to have children's mandatory recitation of it at school, but I haven't heard of any movement to extend the matter to adults, say, at work or places of leisure.

 

This is very interesting, too! One would think children would be the least able to understand the implications of such a pledge. It seems to me that such a thing should be reserved for those who do fully understand it, and that no one (child or adult) should be pressured into reciting it.

[stripe]

It seems to me as if it's not very heart-felt if one is obliged to do it, and given that there have been religious objections (by groups as diverse as Jehovah's Witnesses, who went to court over it in the 30s and 40s, and atheists), it seems a bit flimsy. Plus no one can clearly say, in anything I've read, what the consequences are of NOT saying it.

 

But there appears to be an earnest belief that saying the pledge in childhood, which I for one have never heard recited in anything but a dull monotone, leads to long-lasting love for country.

[TracyP]

I have to add that I am also uncomfortable with the pledge. I have several reasons, most of which Mercy A touched on, but reciting the pledge has virtually nothing to do with how patriotic someone is, IMO.

[stripe]

Here is a rather, um, interesting book from 1956, titled "The Flag of My Country," from a series of Navajo readers.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/23424/23424-h/23424-h.htm

[fairfarmhand]

In my rural community, I've seen it done in churches (!) and at all our co-op meetings. Almost all adults and children participate. As a Christian, I have several problems with the pledge:

 

1. My first allegiance is to Christ. I can't in good conscience pledge my allegiance to a fallible human government which may ask me to act contrary to my faith and which may be responsible for grave evil.

2. I do not believe I should make oaths of any kind (Matthew 5:34-37).

3. I believe it is a lie to affirm that there is currently "liberty and justice for all" in America.

 

I mean no offense to anyone; just sharing my perspective here. Peace to all.

 

 

you know, over the past few years, this is more and more my thought processes. I believe, especially in my area, patriotism is next to Godliness. And it is just accepted as the way things are. But I am beginning to question that on a personal level.

[Embassy]

My dc are very patriotic, and they are completely appalled and horrified when a bomb goes off anywhere, in any country. Or any injustice anywhere. Why do you think being patriotic equates to not caring about others in other countries or wanting to make the world a better place?

 

 

When a country is at war or involved in military engagements there are civilians that are killed, but they are just considered collateral damage. 90% of those killed in war are civilians. These are innocent people and to be patriotic in the traditional sense, I must accept these things as part of a greater good. I don't view the life of a person living in Boston to be any more valuable than the life of a person living in Afghanistan or Bangladesh.

[TracyP]

 

When a country is at war or involved in military engagements there are civilians that are killed, but they are just considered collateral damage. 90% of those killed in war are civilians. These are innocent people and to be patriotic in the traditional sense, I must accept these things as part of a greater good. I don't view the life of a person living in Boston to be any more valuable than the life of a person living in Afghanistan or Bangladesh.

 

I do not have to agree with the actions of the current "powers that be" to be patriotic. Not at all. Trying to not be political here, but it is because I am patriotic that I try very hard to vote in a way that steers our country away from those things. I don't give up on our country just because not everyone agrees.

[MercyA]

Here is a rather, um, interesting book from 1956, titled "The Flag of My Country," from a series of Navajo readers.

http://www.gutenberg...4-h/23424-h.htm

 

Thanks for sharing this. Very interesting indeed.

[Embassy]

I do not have to agree with the actions of the current "powers that be" to be patriotic. Not at all. Trying to not be political here, but it is because I am patriotic that I try very hard to vote in a way that steers our country away from those things. I don't give up on our country just because not everyone agrees.

 

I agree. We should vote to effect change. I'm not sure I understand your "give up" statement though. How do you relate giving up and patriotism?

[TracyP]

 

I agree. We should vote to effect change. I'm not sure I understand your "give up" statement though. How do you relate giving up and patriotism?

The people I know who are not patriotic, have given up on America. Some no longer vote, no longer trust government, military, police, etc. They have that right - it is a free country ;), but I disagree. Even though these are imperfect institutions, I don't think we should just throw our hands up in the air and give up. I knew that wasn't the best term when I posted it, but I had to feed my kids so decided to leave it. I don't really know how I would better express what I'm thinking, though. Does that make sense?

[Unicorn.]

 

When a country is at war or involved in military engagements there are civilians that are killed, but they are just considered collateral damage. 90% of those killed in war are civilians. These are innocent people and to be patriotic in the traditional sense, I must accept these things as part of a greater good. I don't view the life of a person living in Boston to be any more valuable than the life of a person living in Afghanistan or Bangladesh.

 

So basically you're a pacifist who doesn't believe in self defense or defense of your family? Because I really, really, don't see the correlation otherwise. Yes, innocent people die in war. It's sad, no matter where they live, or who they are, or how old or young. Are you saying it's better to let dictators/tyrannical govts. kill their citizens, than to to go to war to try and stop them? Should we just let people or govts. attack our citizens and not fight back? Because either way, innocents are getting killed. At least if we go to war to stop an injustice, the people have hope that the killing will stop. Does it suck that innocent people die. Absolutely. But I would rather die fighting than stand by and do nothing.

 

As to the second bolded statement....neither do I, and being a patriot or being patriotic doesn't mean that I do. I really don't understand why you would think it would..

[Embassy]

As to the second bolded statement....neither do I, and being a patriot or being patriotic doesn't mean that I do. I really don't understand why you would think it would..

 

I make the correlation because if our government is responsible for those deaths in borders beyond our own, can we really see those deaths the same way as deaths in our own country? Will the people who lost family members in those countries feel like we do when innocents are killed in our own country? How then can killing stop the killing?

[Embassy]

The people I know who are not patriotic, have given up on America. Some no longer vote, no longer trust government, military, police, etc. They have that right - it is a free country ;), but I disagree. Even though these are imperfect institutions, I don't think we should just throw our hands up in the air and give up. I knew that wasn't the best term when I posted it, but I had to feed my kids so decided to leave it. I don't really know how I would better express what I'm thinking, though. Does that make sense?

 

Yes, thanks for clarifying :)

[Roadrunner]

My nephew was once doing the schoolwork and he had to provide definitions of some words, one of them being patriotism. My father half jokingly said that unfortunately patriotism too often means loving your country at the expense of others.

[Unicorn.]

I make the correlation because if our government is responsible for those deaths in borders beyond our own, can we really see those deaths the same way as deaths in our own country? Will the people who lost family members in those countries feel like we do when innocents are killed in our own country? How then can killing stop the killing?

 

 

If their govt hits us first, and we hit back, are we responsible? No. Did we cause those deaths, yes, but we are not responsible.. they are.

 

Fwiw- every. single. military death, to me is the death of an innocent. Most of them are very, very young men who haven't even begun to live their lives. It's sad. Every death is sad. Those boys (and girls) are fighting for our (or other's ) freedoms. They are over there fighting for the freedom of those innocent people...in other countries. They are giving up their lives for others, not just the citizens of our country...and for that, I thank them.

And to not be patriotic is a slap in the face to those who sacrifice. And honestly, if you don't get that... I don't think you deserve to enjoy the freedoms they pay for w/ their lives, and you should move to one of those other countries that aren't so patriotic. And I won't apologize for feeling that way.

[Embassy]

If their govt hits us first, and we hit back, are we responsible? No. Did we cause those deaths, yes, but we are not responsible.. they are.

 

Fwiw- every. single. military death, to me is the death of an innocent. Most of them are very, very young men who haven't even begun to live their lives. It's sad. Every death is sad. Those boys (and girls) are fighting for our (or other's ) freedoms. They are over there fighting for the freedom of those innocent people...in other countries. They are giving up their lives for others, not just the citizens of our country...and for that, I thank them.

And to not be patriotic is a slap in the face to those who sacrifice. And honestly, if you don't get that... I don't think you deserve to enjoy the freedoms they pay for w/ their lives, and you should move to one of those other countries that aren't so patriotic. And I won't apologize for feeling that way.

 

 

And here is the quandary It seems as though being a patriot is defined as someone who goes with the status-quo. Cannot people of differing opinions work to effect change with their vote? The "if you don't like it - leave" idea just doesn't fit with what I believe my country should be. It started with people who changed things. If they went with that "if you don't like it - leave" idea, our country would not exist.

[Shamzanne]

How is does being patriotic equal caring more for people in the US over other countries? Can I not care for both and still be patriotic? I don't understand what kind of view some seem to have of patriotic people, but it seems to be not in keeping with the patriotism of myself and my patriotic friends. My faith teaches me to "love" all people as people. It does not also prevent me from being patriotic. I also don't consider my Patriotism to be a Christian value.

 

I think you are correct. It is possible. I have had plenty of experience, however, with people who do equate patriotism with being a Christian. There are lots of folks who think that God has ordained this country above all others. Literally. I attended a Christian college where this was taught. I was continually harassed because I didn't support the Iraq invasion. When I shared a paper on the history of Christian non-violence I was told I should go to Iraq so I could die. Heck, when they said the pledge of allegiance in chapel and I stood silently instead, I was berated and screamed at by fellow students. I sat in a class with a pastor who wished that the US would just drop an a-bomb on the entire "arab" world.

 

This is where my problem lies. I can't reconcile this way of thinking with Christianity.

[Unicorn.]

 

And here is the quandary It seems as though being a patriot is defined as someone who goes with the status-quo. Cannot people of differing opinions work to effect change with their vote? The "if you don't like it - leave" idea just doesn't fit with what I believe my country should be. It started with people who changed things. If they went with that "if you don't like it - leave" idea, our country would not exist.

 

 

Good point, except that is exactly what they did. They didn't like England..so they left. Then, they didn't like the way England was treating them as colonists, so they "left even more", by forming their own country. And lots of innocent people died to make that happen. There will always be war. Innocent people will always get hurt, for the greater good. I don't find your reasoning for not being patriotic to make any sense. As I'm sure you don't see my patriotism as making any sense. We'll just have to agree that we don't see each other's side in this matter. And one of the great things about this country, is that we are free to disagree. :D

[Embassy]

Good point, except that is exactly what they did. They didn't like England..so they left. Then, they didn't like the way England was treating them as colonists, so they "left even more", by forming their own country. And lots of innocent people died to make that happen. There will always be war. Innocent people will always get hurt, for the greater good. I don't find your reasoning for not being patriotic to make any sense. As I'm sure you don't see my patriotism as making any sense. We'll just have to agree that we don't see each other's side in this matter. And one of the great things about this country, is that we are free to disagree. :D

 

Founding fathers like George Washington and Benjamin Franklin were born in the colonies. The American Revolution kicked out the ruling government instead of leaving.

 

I never said I wasn't patriotic. I said I wasn't patriotic in the traditional sense which appears to be your position.

 

As a Christian I strongly believe the greater good is to love our enemies and to do good to those who are not good to us. I personally don't find that killing my enemy is showing very much love. ;)

[Unicorn.]

 

Founding fathers like George Washington and Benjamin Franklin were born in the colonies. The American Revolution kicked out the ruling government instead of leaving. which is why I put "left even more by..." in quotes

 

I never said I wasn't patriotic. I said I wasn't patriotic in the traditional sense which appears to be your position. Not sure what you mean by the traditional sense, but I can tell you if I were Paul Revere's neighbor... I would have lit the dang lanterns for him! :D

 

As a Christian I strongly believe the greater good is to love our enemies and to do good to those who are not good to us. I personally don't find that killing my enemy is showing very much love. ;) Now, see, why didn't you just state that from the beginning? Still don't agree- but I do understand where you are coming from.

answers in red

[MercyA]

If their govt hits us first, and we hit back, are we responsible? No. Did we cause those deaths, yes, but we are not responsible.. they are.

 

Fwiw- every. single. military death, to me is the death of an innocent. Most of them are very, very young men who haven't even begun to live their lives. It's sad. Every death is sad. Those boys (and girls) are fighting for our (or other's ) freedoms. They are over there fighting for the freedom of those innocent people...in other countries. They are giving up their lives for others, not just the citizens of our country...and for that, I thank them.

And to not be patriotic is a slap in the face to those who sacrifice. And honestly, if you don't get that... I don't think you deserve to enjoy the freedoms they pay for w/ their lives, and you should move to one of those other countries that aren't so patriotic. And I won't apologize for feeling that way.

 

 

We attack countries that have not attacked us, and somehow they are responsible? :confused:

 

People sign up, voluntarily and willingly, to potentially kill other human beings, and we are supposed to consider them "innocent"?

 

As far as whether or not soldiers are truly fighting for our freedoms and the freedoms of others...to share my thoughts on that would likely be considered too political for this forum (and I really don't want to see this thread locked down). However, you no doubt know that not everyone shares your view.

 

I am responsible before God for what I support. And if refusing to support a particular military action makes me "unpatriotic," and causes others to tell me I should leave the country, that's okay! I am much more concerned about what God thinks than about what other people think.

 

I used to share your sentiments, Unicorn. So, while I no longer agree with you, I do understand your reaction.

 

Peace!

[weaver_67579]

I think you are correct. It is possible. I have had plenty of experience, however, with people who do equate patriotism with being a Christian. There are lots of folks who think that God has ordained this country above all others. Literally. I attended a Christian college where this was taught. I was continually harassed because I didn't support the Iraq invasion. When I shared a paper on the history of Christian non-violence I was told I should go to Iraq so I could die. Heck, when they said the pledge of allegiance in chapel and I stood silently instead, I was berated and screamed at by fellow students. I sat in a class with a pastor who wished that the US would just drop an a-bomb on the entire "arab" world.

 

This is where my problem lies. I can't reconcile this way of thinking with Christianity.

 

 

I admit-those people and experiences you describe seem decidedly un Christian to me.

 

I have also witnessed and have had friends experience similar rude and downright mean treatment of military veterans, families and supporters by both Christian and other pacifists. In a small town we lived in shortly after DH and I were married there was a large population of a pacifist denomination. The town police chief was walking down the street with the flag borrowed from the city office to use at the only non-Mennonite church in town for a veteran's day service. He was stopped and berated by a little old lady (that had attended the church DH and I had attended for a while) for his military service in the past and told that he was going to hell. He told her he was already there when he served in Vietnam :ohmy: A dear friend of mine-like a father to me, was berated at a doctor's office for his military service and told he and all other military members were going to hell. The man made quite a scene. All my friend did was wear a hat with his branch of the service while taking another dear friend to the doctor. Gee-my own brother-in-law (a pastor and DH's brother) had a yelling fit Thanksgiving day after 9-11 as the family went around telling what we were thankful for and DH said our military which works to protect us. This in the context of my just finding out that week my sister's husband was to be deployed to the middle East. He ended up serving in Iraq. Pastor BIL knew that.The treatment of returning Vietnam veterans, being spit apon, yelled at, being called baby killers... was horrible. my father was a Vietnam veteran. Unfortunately, there is plenty of bad and un-Christian behavior on all sides of this topic to go around and I do not condone it at all-regardless if the person doing it supports my view or not..

 

:patriot: Taking my patriotic self off to bed...

[Dicentra]

Why do our universities dominate the world rankings? And I would say that our country's top private and selective public K-12 schools are probably among the best in the world as well.

 

 

Hey! We've got 3 in the top 30! Considering we've only got 72 universities in total, that's 4.2%. That's not half bad. :)

 

(This is how Canadian patriotism works. When we find out that we're not as lowly as we thought we were, we're happy. ;) :D)

 

ETA: Shoot. I was looking at the wrong column of numbers. We've got 3 in the top 33. And apparently nothing after that. Ah - what the heck - I'm still gonna be happy. :D

[Melissa in Australia]

Aussies are not patriotic at all. We know we are the best country in the world. there is no debate on it at all. :laugh:

[Pawz4me]

People sign up, voluntarily and willingly, to potentially kill other human beings, and we are supposed to consider them "innocent"?

 

Exactly.

 

And on a related note -- Call me unpatriotic, but I don't get the notion that we should revere our troops, or "owe" them something, when those troops are doing what they do voluntarily. They chose to do it.

 

And lest anyone start throwing tomatoes, let me explain where I'm coming from -- My father was a WWII vet (if you think that's hard to believe, I'm 50 and he was 43 when I was born). Of course in that little conflict it was either sign up or be drafted if you were young and reasonably healthy. So basically a non-volunteer military. And all his life he thoroughly despised the notion that he was "owed" anything for his service. The handful of his fellow veterans I met felt the same way. That's the culture I was raised in. This belief that we somehow "owe" our (volunteer) military something seems to be a relatively new notion from my perspective.

 

Yes, I appreciate what our military people do. Just as I appreciate the people who've chosen to be law enforcement officers, firefighters, EMTs, doctors and nurses and medical professionals of all sorts. All those people keep us safe. To revere the military to the extent I sometimes see happening in this country scares me a little. It smacks of some sort of totalitarian government. I can't help but think of North Korea when I see what (to me) is over-the-top military reverence or pressure to recite the Pledge or sing the national anthem at a public event. If we relish our freedom, then we should uphold the freedom to NOT do those things. Otherwise it's not really freedom at all.

[Crimson Wife]

 

Wait.

 

You said "They may have more uniform quality schools, healthcare, etc. but our best schools, doctors & hospitals, etc. are far better."

 

Now you are back tracking and saying our private and selective public K-12 schools are "among the best in the world". I agree with that statement, but is quite different than saying "our best are far better". What evidence do you have that the "best" health care professionals are "better" than the best in say, the UK? Canada?

 

I believe it is a bit of a stretch to rely on "our best is better" with no evidence when we can see that outcomes for education and health care across the board in other nations does appear to be superior to ours.

 

 

When I said earlier that "our best is far better" I was thinking specifically of healthcare rather than K-12 schools. People fly from all over the world (including from Canada and Europe) to be treated at our top hospitals and clinics. Americans, by contrast, seek medical treatment in other countries because it's cheaper NOT because it's better. If they had the money, they'd go to American doctors.

[Jennifer3141]

 

When I said earlier that "our best is far better" I was thinking specifically of healthcare rather than K-12 schools. People fly from all over the world (including from Canada and Europe) to be treated at our top hospitals and clinics. Americans, by contrast, seek medical treatment in other countries because it's cheaper NOT because it's better. If they had the money, they'd go to American doctors.

 

 

 

Actually, we are quite a ways behind in things like stem cell research so many, many very wealthy Americans travel to countries like Great Britan that didn't lose 8 YEARS of medical research time...

 

And most top researchers of some of the deadliest and more horrific diseases like ASL know that the answer for those are ONLY going to come from stem cell research. Most of those research physicians no longer live in the US.

[Crimson Wife]

Aussies are not patriotic at all. We know we are the best country in the world. there is no debate on it at all. :laugh:

 

 

Asking seriously- is this true? There's no subset of elites who are all into cultural relativism and who view loyalty to one's country as a bad thing?

[weaver_67579]

This seems highly unlikely to me that they are/were pacifists. Pacifists are about peace and non violence. A non reaction seems more likely than a rude/mean reaction. If you see people picketing and yelling about the military they are probably not pacifists.

 

 

I know at least one of the people personally and she would consider herself a pacifist. I guess telling someone they are going to hell isn't cosidered to negate one's pacifism by some... BIL also has called himself a pacifist to me so yelling at Thanksgiving dinner must not apply either... :glare:

 

 

:patriot: Why did I not ever find this smiley before-lol

[regentrude]

They may have more uniform quality schools, healthcare, etc. but our best schools, doctors & hospitals, etc. are far better

 

 

While this may be the case (and I do not agree about the best US high schools being far superior to a public college prep high school in my home state!), those are accessible only to a small fraction of the population.

To the 40k Americans without health insurance, it does not matter that we have the top hospitals because many can not afford to see a doctor when they are sick, and pretty much none can afford to pay for a cutting edge treatment out of pocket.

To the people in rural areas or inner cities, it does not help one little bit that there are some top notch college prep high schools in large metropolitan areas, when their schools have no qualified teachers and their graduates are lagging several years behind their lucky peers with access to these schools.

[regentrude]

Proud America here. I thank God I was born here and not some place else.

I don't get why people hang around when they aren't happy and proud to be here. If the country you live in is so repulsive why not go where you agree with the government and lifestyle.

 

 

This is exactly the kind of response I was referring to in my first post: how is any progress ever going to happen if people who want to change the country for the better are accused of lack of patriotism and told to go elsewhere?

 

I do not have to agree with the government because this is a democracy, and the government is elected by the people. So, I can vote and use the political system to drive change.

I do not have to be happy about everything. I do not have to be happy that my uninsured sick friend can not afford to see a doctor. I do not have to be happy that incoming students from sub standard rural high schools enter college woefully unprepared. There are many things I am not happy about. And I can hope and work for change. I fail to see how wanting to improve one's country is unpatriotic.

Anybody who thinks every single thing about this country is perfect and nothing should ever be changed lives in a bubble that is very different from my daily reality.

 

The great strength of this country is that it is dynamic and change CAN happen.

[Crimson Wife]

So, serious question, is your conclusion that "American patriotism" is uniquely good and right and true, because we (and we alone) are the best country in the world, and therefore "patriotism" elsewhere is either of a second-rate nature, or a deluded feeling of pride/allegiance to an inferior nation?

 

Are citizens of Germany, or Mexico, or Burkina Faso right (or wrong) to feel patriotic about their countries? Or should they adopt feelings of "American patriotism" over pride (or even allegiance and loyalty) to their home nation?

 

Bill

 

I've been thinking about this, and I do think there is something unique and nobler about American patriotism. The reason is because it isn't based on any kind of tribalism. "German" is an ethnicity. Ditto for "Mexican" or "Chinese" or what have you. But the U.S.A. is a land of immigrants and being an American is not about having a particular ethnicity, religion, etc. It's about an idea: freedom. Freedom to govern ourselves. Freedom of speech and assembly. Freedom to worship however we so choose or to not worship at all. Freedom to make a better life for ourselves and our children.

 

Maybe our society hasn't always lived up to our ideals but that doesn't mean that there isn't still something special about the U.S.A.