What are your thoughts on surrogate motherhood?

[Kim in Appalachia]

I could never do it. My mom actually asked me to consider it for my sister who was struggling with infertility. But there is no way I could carry a child and then not consider that child mine, no matter what. Even to hand the child over to my sister would be hard. We have very different lives, and while I adore her and respect her greatly, I know I would find myself judging everything she did with that child. It would be a nightmare.

 

My sister never asked or suggested it, just my mother. My sister has since had a child.

 

I also have some ethical issues with the idea of using surrogate mothers, but I would never judge or criticize anyone who chose to use a surrogate or be a surrogate.

[nmoira]

Good grief! A few examples of ways surrogacy can be handled unethically is hardly justification to condemn the practice as a whole!

 

Any more than cases of abusive or neglectful biological parents condemns the practice of parenthood as a whole.

[Miss Mousie]

I would do it solely for the opportunity to say to people, "It's not mine. I'm just holding it for a friend." ;)

[AimeeM]

The extras are often either non-existent or are saved for future pregnancy attempts. If there remain embryos after a couple has successfully birthed the number of children they desire, those embryos may be donated to infertile couples who adopt them and attempt pregnancy. I can understand ethical qualms regarding deliberately discarding embryos, but I cannot understand a blanket statement that IVF and/or surrogacy are universally unethical. It's ridiculous and offensive to state such. I have no issue without someone deciding that they are uncomfortable with the practice for themselves.

 

Basically, it isn't cool to tell someone that it is unethical for their child to exist because of how s/he came into the world.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that the child shouldn't exist.

Are you pro teen pregnancy? I would imagine you aren't. Do you think their children shouldn't exist because they had them as teenagers, or do you just choose not to advocate the WAY they came into the world?

 

I had my eldest, many moons ago, at the age of 16. I didn't feel anyone thought SHE shouldn't EXIST, rather people thought it shouldn't have happened the way it did.

[Veritaserum]

 

I don't think anyone is saying that the child shouldn't exist.

Are you pro teen pregnancy? I would imagine you aren't. Do you think their children shouldn't exist because they had them as teenagers, or do you just choose not to advocate the WAY they came into the world?

 

I had my eldest, many moons ago, at the age of 16. I didn't feel anyone thought SHE shouldn't EXIST, rather people thought it shouldn't have happened the way it did.

 

I'm sure infertile couples would prefer NOT to need assisted reproductive technology. However, many of them would never get to be parents if not for surrogacy or IVF. Teen pregnancy and ARP are too different to be treated the same way. I can discourage teen pregnancy while being wholly supportive of adults essentially getting treatment for a medical condition (infertility).

 

Those who are opposed to treatment for infertility, which for some couples has to be IVF or surrogacy to have a chance of success, would appear to prefer that those couples remain childless. (Not everyone is a good candidate to adopt due to a variety of reasons.)

[Tita Gidge]

Is becoming a parent a right? a privilege?

 

So long as opposing sides view the call to parenthood in conflicting ways, there's no point in continuing to run circles around this mulberry bush.

 

It's a sensitive topic close to many hearts on both sides, is it really worth "going there"?

 

It's okay to disagree, and it's okay to not take it personally when we don't!

[Murphy101]

Being categorically opposed to IVF/surrogacy does not mean one is opposed to infertility treatment. The John Paul Institute of Studies of Human Reproduction helps many couples find solutions that don't require unethical practices.

 

Yes, I am opposed to people doing something unethical to get what they want. That doesn't mean I don't understand why they want what they want. It means I don't view the wanting as a good enough reason to do something unethical.

 

One can have an opinion that something is unethical and still feel compassion for those who struggle in a situation.

[nmoira]

Yes, I am opposed to people doing something unethical to get what they want. That doesn't mean I don't understand why they want what they want. It means I don't view the wanting as a good enough reason to do something unethical.

 

Within your church or in society at large? How could it be "unethical" in choosing surrogacy for someone who doesn't share the same underlying beliefs that cause you to label it unethical?

[Jennifer3141]

Within your church or in society at large? How could it be "unethical" in choosing surrogacy for someone who doesn't share the same underlying beliefs that cause you to label it unethical?

 

 

 

Aye, there's the rub. Whose ethics?

[happymomofboys]

Is it something you would ever consider doing?

 

 

I would never, but as long as there is no exploitation involved, I don't see a problem with it.

[Murphy101]

Within your church or in society at large? How could it be "unethical" in choosing surrogacy for someone who doesn't share the same underlying beliefs that cause you to label it unethical?

 

 

I'm not even sure what you mean by underlying beliefs. One doesn't have to be catholic to view something as unethical or wrong.

 

Unethical is unethical. Again, I do not think it becomes ethical to do something just because I or someone else is okay doing it.

[LucyStoner]

 

Unethical is unethical.

 

Unethical is personal. Many things other people consider moral or ethical, I consider to be blatantly unethical and vice versa. So your ethical could be my unethical.

[Murphy101]

I disagree. I don't think ethics is just doing whatever we want or don't want to do.

[nmoira]

 

 

I'm not even sure what you mean by underlying beliefs. One doesn't have to be catholic to view something as unethical or wrong.

 

Unethical is unethical. Again, I do not think it becomes ethical to do something just because I or someone else is okay doing it.

 

I hope you're not being disingenuous. I don't believe that life begins at conception. I don't have any moral or ethical qualms about BCP or "discarded" embryos, or masturbation, or conception outside the uterus because I don't share your religious beliefs.

[Murphy101]

I hope you're not being disingenuous. I don't believe that life begins at conception. I don't have any moral or ethical qualms about BCP or "discarded" embryos, or masturbation, or conception outside the uterus because I don't share your religious beliefs.

 

Not disingenuous at all.

 

I converted to a religion that shared my beliefs. I don't believe what I do because I'm RC. I believe it regardless of that fact. And there are other people who aren't catholic or even Christian who have ethical qualms about everything you don't.

[LucyStoner]

I was asked to consider being a surrogate or an egg donor by a close relative and declined both. My reasoning was based on a few, serious and highly personal factors. I am not an ideal candidate for surrogacy and not comfortable with giving my eggs to anyone.

[nmoira]

 

 

Not disingenuous at all.

 

I converted to a religion that shared my beliefs. I don't believe what I do because I'm RC. I believe it regardless of that fact. And there are other people who aren't catholic or even Christian who have ethical qualms about everything you don't.

 

 

Ummm, and there are plenty that don't. What does that prove? My point was that we don't share the same underlying belief system, and I don't see that you're contradicting me. How can my actions regarding surrogacy be unethical outside your faith system given that we don't share the same underlying beliefs? I'm not judging you for not adhering to mine.

[LucyStoner]

I disagree. I don't think ethics is just doing whatever we want or don't want to do.

 

 

Um, alrighty then. So what exactly does unethical is unethical mean if you doubt that people use ethics to govern themselves well? Since ethics just means doing whatever the heck one feels like to you.

[PachiSusan]

<butting in>

 

This might help:

 

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/ethics-vs-morals/

 

There IS a difference between the two, so clarifying which one people are talking about might help understanding each side.

 

</butting out> :)

[Murphy101]

Ethics and morals are the same thing, IMO. tho philosophers have argued that for years and years.

 

I do not think ethics are personal. Just because you want to do something and decide it's a dandy thing to do doesn't make it ethical for you or anyone else to do it.

[nmoira]

Ethics and morals are the same thing, IMO. tho philosophers have argued that for years and years.

 

I do not think ethics are personal. Just because you want to do something and decide it's a dandy thing to do doesn't make it ethical for you or anyone else to do it.

 

But why are *yours* universal?

[Murphy101]

But why are *yours* universal?

 

Because mine are right. :)

 

Obviously if I didn't believe them to be right, I wouldn't believe it to be an ethical question at all.

 

This is the problem in any society. Determining what is right and wrong and ordering the society in a manner that encourages the right and discouraging the wrong, yes?

 

Is this not the basis of why we have laws and social constructs?

 

Do you not also believe in right and wrong? Or do you not believe there is anything that is actually wrong, just wrong to you? I find that doubtful, but I've heard it claimed before by others.

 

[LucyStoner]

Because mine are right. :)

 

 

Oh, thanks. That clears it up. Making a mental note to calibrate my beliefs to yours so that I too can be always perfectly correct!

 

Do you really hear yourself?

 

People are living amazing, wonderful and full, moral lives without falling into lockstep with you or anyone else. If you can't see that, you are guilty of hubris.

[texasmama]

If I had easier pregnancies, I would do this for a close friend or relative. I would not do it for money for a stranger. I would not be comfortable with egg donation, only carrying a biologically unrelated child.

[Murphy101]

 

Oh, thanks. That clears it up. Making a mental note to calibrate my beliefs to yours so that I too can be always perfectly correct!

 

Do you really hear yourself?

 

People are living amazing, wonderful and full, moral lives without falling into lockstep with you or anyone else. If you can't see that, you are guilty of hubris.

 

Why yes I do hear myself.

 

Or rather read myself I suppose.

 

I read IVF is directly tied to abortion, a practice of purposely ending human life after fertilization. I think it is wrong to end human life before it naturally comes to its natural conclusion. therefore IVF is wrong.

 

I read surrogacy creates a situation where women are pregnant with some man's baby that is not their husband, poor women are used in unethical practices, and basicly leads to many other moral quandries. That is also to be avoided, therefore IVF is wrong.

 

I have no doubt many people are living immoral lives or making unethical decisions.

 

I'm not being prideful in stating what I view as right and wrong. Though even if I were being prideful, it wouldn't make what is wrong right.

[Murphy101]

Do you think I'm prideful because I believe in right and wrong or simply because I refuse to accept your stance that nothing is right or wrong, it's all just personal choices to do what we want to get what we want?

 

What makes you right to call me prideful?

 

And I didn't ask any one to agree with me or the RCC. No doubt that would make life easier though.

 

Questions were asked.

 

Answers were given.

[nmoira]

This is the problem in any society. Determining what is right and wrong and ordering the society in a manner that encourages the right and discouraging the wrong, yes?

 

Is this not the basis of why we have laws and social constructs?

 

 

And as a society, we've decided that IVF is OK ethically and morally. Same with surrogacy, though with certain restrictions. I don't see any movement the other way on that one. It may not be ok for you, given your beliefs, but neither your beliefs nor the ethics derived from them are universal in this case.

[Veritaserum]

I believe there *are* some things that are universally right and wrong. You misunderstand me if you think I believe that all personal choices are automatically right/moral/ethical. I don't.

 

What I am arguing here is that IVF and surrogacy are not *inherently* unethical despite religious teachings that they are. They can be *used* unethically, but the vast majority of uses are ethical.

[nmoira]

I thought I'd heard some odd things...but are we really debating whether all ethics are universal???? or just some?

 

 

Just Martha's. :D

 

(Meant in good spirit.)

[butterflymommy]

In the last few years there was a case that illustrates the problem: WAAAYYY too many women go into without thinking it through. Long story short, the surrogate (single mother of 1 or 2) did if for financial reasons. She willingly signed a contract with the couple that agreed to aborting the baby if there was a serious medical issue. The couple already had a couple of mild (as I recall) special needs children together if I'm remembering it right. No one in that situation bothered to think that maybe two different people would have different ideas about what is serious enough to abort over and what isn't. I can't ever advise a woman, regardless of her views on abortion, to EVER sign a contact giving someone else that kind of decision making over her pregnancy or baby-depending on how you see it. It's just inviting terrible trouble.

 

 

There is a docu on netflix about a lesbian couple who hired a surrogate to carry their child. I can't remember if someone else's eggs were used. The baby turned out to have serious defects and IIRC one of the mom wants to abort and the other mom doesn't. I can't remember the surrogate's view. But she ended up delivering very prematurely. I think it was called "Little Man." The couple eventually divorced.

 

Even when the baby was born one mom didn't want life saving measures taken and the other demanded it. The docu was terribly done but the issues and conflicts it presents are interesting.

 

To answer the question, NO. Because I would not be able to give the baby up and that would create quite a mess for all involved.

[Murphy101]

I never claimed my ethics or the RCC's ethics are universally accepted.

 

You asked me whether I think IVF/surrogacy is unethical personally or universally.

 

My answer is it is universally unethical.

 

The fact that you and others don't view it as unethical doesn't change that for me.

 

Personal opinions and sometimes even social acceptance doesn't make what is wrong right.

 

If all of society decided jumping off a cliff was acceptable, I'd still be standing apart saying they are wrong.

 

[butterflymommy]

I read surrogacy creates a situation where women are pregnant with some man's baby that is not their husband, poor women are used in unethical practices, and basicly leads to many other moral quandries. That is also to be avoided, therefore IVF is wrong.

 

 

 

The use of third world women to be surrogates for wealthy westerners (for much cheaper than the western price tag) is troubling.

[Julie Smith]

I would not be willing to go through labor again to even get a kid for myself.... you know what it's not fun. :p

 

I had a really hard time giving birth to my Youngest. Complications and all that. After that I was simply not willing to go through that again.

[Melissa in Australia]

Good grief! A few examples of ways surrogacy can be handled unethically is hardly justification to condemn the practice as a whole!

 

Surrogacy is viewed as unethical here to such a degree that commercial surrogacy is illegal in Australia. As soon as you commercialise children then it raises all sorts of ethical questions.

these include but are not limited to;

creating babies just for parts needed to 'fix' a sibling (this does happen)

old extremely rich people ordering a baby made to description and paying large sums to receive the child ( this does happen)

people changing their mind about the baby and not picking it up (this is becoming more and more common)

[misidawnrn]

My sister was a traditional surrogate for me for my 9yo DD (used her own egg). I can't be thankful enough!!!! You also have to be careful of the scammers! My ex and I had another traditional surrogate and she got pregnant with twins, was horrible from the first pregnancy test, threatened to abort if I didn't send more money, told me she miscarried and then ended up keeping them because she could get welfare money with all the children she had....longer story than that but that is the basics. I was heartbroken!

[Truscifi]

I would have considered it before my having my first child. Going through the unpleasantness (for me) of pregnancy was only worth it because at the end I got a baby.

 

Also, not having experienced the parent-child bond, I think I could have given the child over to its intended parents. But when I had my own, and knew what it felt like to hold the child and feel that immediate connection...I'd no longer consider it because I don't think I would be able to give it up.

[Scarlett]

What I see happens in these type threads is a question is asked

-would you?.

 

Answer is given--no I would not because I believe that to be wrong/immoral/ unethical.

 

Someone else pops up and says--says you. "I" don't think it is wrong/immoral /unethical.

 

 

[Murphy101]

Indeed.

 

And further devolves into something similiar to "how dare you claim to know what is right and wrong."

 

Humph.

 

Because I believe in right and wrong. That's not religion. It's reason.

 

I've met many people over the years who claim right and wrong doesn't exist, it's all just personal decisions, but when you pin them to brass tacks of things, lo and behold they do think many things are right simply because it should be right and many things are wrong simply because it's wrong, regardless of the laws or social acceptance of it.

[beaners]

 

I've met many people over the years who claim right and wrong doesn't exist, it's all just personal decisions, but when you pin them to brass tacks of things, lo and behold they do think many things are right simply because it should be right and many things are wrong simply because it's wrong, regardless of the laws or social acceptance of it.

 

I don't think that's what anyone in this thread said though. In fact, I think you're the only one who said that. Other people are saying that they believe strongly in things being right or wrong, but on this issue they disagree with your stance. That doesn't mean they're all loosey-goosey about right and wrong. Odds are, they believe just as strongly as you do that they are the ones with the correct stance, and that your stance is incorrect.

[Murphy101]

I don't think that's what anyone in this thread said though. In fact, I think you're the only one who said that. Other people are saying that they believe strongly in things being right or wrong, but on this issue they disagree with your stance. That doesn't mean they're all loosey-goosey about right and wrong. Odds are, they believe just as strongly as you do that they are the ones with the correct stance, and that your stance is incorrect.

 

No they haven't said it outright because they probably know how ridiculous that would sound and because I don't think anyone actually believes that.

 

But it was stated outright that if I view it as right vs wrong then I'm just being prideful (and its implied that im being holier than thou?) which implies that judging something (or at least this) as right or wrong is innately wrong of me.

 

I was asked if I felt it is wrong personally or wrong for everyone. Which is a nonsensical question to me bc if I just thought it was something I didn't want to do, then I wouldn't think it was wrong at all, just personal tastes. But if something is viewed as unethical and wrong, then of course someone thinking logically is going to think it universally unethical and wrong.

 

What do I base what is right and wrong on? Religion helps, but even without that, there are, one hopes, minimum standards of justice that a person uses to make such judgements in a reasoned manner.

 

And I previously stated a few of those injustices that are very common problems wrt IVF/surrogacy that lead me to view it as categorically unethical. At first, it was claimed they don't do those things. When pointed out that error, it was stated well yes, but not often. When stated, actually almost every time, then the statement is again amended to, well yes, but it's okay because they didn't have much chance anyways or yes but it's okay because they are just an itty bit of humanity, not a big bit of humanity. When it is stated that even itty bits of humanity shouldn't be created without given a chance, the emotional plea of how sad the longing for a bit of humanity is a valid reason to risk discarding so much of it. If anything their efforts to justify IVF/surrogacy are very helpful in illustrating exactly how each step of the process requires readjusting to find justification in order to stay the course, and why the RCC thus advises not partaking of the process at all due to the ethical dilemmas it creates.

[Scarlett]

 

 

No they haven't said it outright because they probably know how ridiculous that would sound and because I don't think anyone actually believes that.

 

But it was stated outright that if I view it as right vs wrong then I'm just being prideful (and its implied that im being holier than thou?) which implies that judging something (or at least this) as right or wrong is innately wrong of me.

 

I was asked if I felt it is wrong personally or wrong for everyone. Which is a nonsensical question to me bc if I just thought it was something I didn't want to do, then I wouldn't think it was wrong at all, just personal tastes. But if something is viewed as unethical and wrong, then of course someone thinking logically is going to think it universally unethical and wrong.

 

You have said well what I have thought for years.....if I believe something is wrong I believe it is universally wrong. Otherwise it IS just personal taste.

 

Somehow it has become very politically incorrect to vocalize what we believe to be wrong for fear of offending those who DON'T believe it is wrong.

 

Interesting.

 

[Hannah]

longer story than that but that is the basics. I was heartbroken!

 

This sounds incredibly sad. :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Hannah]

Surrogacy is viewed as unethical here to such a degree that commercial surrogacy is illegal in Australia.

 

South Africa also has very strict surrogacy laws and commercial surrogacy is illegal, but I do not assume this is because the general population regards it as unethical. The law is there to protect all parties, especially the child.

 

Our law allows for the prospective parents and surrogate mother to have their surrogacy agreement validated by the high court before fertilization. This recognises the prospective parents as the legal parents of the child from the outset. Very strict medical and psychological criteria have to be met and surrogate mothers are only allowed to claim for pregnancy related expenses.