Who requires a fine arts credit for admission?

[plansrme]

Mail from U of Missouri came yesterday, and my daughter noticed that they require a fine arts credit for admission. Her quick research indicates that the California unis do as well. Is this common? After three years of high school, she is going to have 47 hours of credit between APs and DE (and not CC, that's Calc 2 and 3 from GA Tech), and she might not be eligible for admission to U of Missouri because she's never taken show choir? Is this common? She has her schedule out and is trying to figure out what to drop over the next two years so she can take music appreciation, but I have never heard of such a thing and am wondering how common it is. If she were still homeschooled, I would add up all of her years of ballet and call it good, but I'm thinking her public school might not be quite so accommodating.

 

So what say you--who else requires this?

 

Terri

[Pawz4me]

We did a campus tour of the University of South Carolina a couple of weeks ago and were rather surprised to hear that they require a fine arts credit. DS seems to believe (for no concrete reason) that it's something they'd overlook if they otherwise felt he was a great fit. USC would be a safety school for him, so the bottom line is . . . he's not going to miss the opportunity to take a challenging academic course in order to meet their fine arts requirement.

[EKS]

We did a campus tour of the University of South Carolina a couple of weeks ago and were rather surprised to hear that they require a fine arts credit. DS seems to believe (for no concrete reason) that it's something they'd overlook if they otherwise felt he was a great fit. USC would be a safety school for him, so the bottom line is . . . he's not going to miss the opportunity to take a challenging academic course in order to meet their fine arts requirement.

 

USC is not a part of the UC system and does not require a fine arts credit for admission.

[Nicole M]

I was going to have my son do a music appreciation course, but when we looked at the text (which I picked up free-fer-nothin' in the music office where I work — publishers send sample copies to the faculty), we realized that he already knew all that stuff from his years of piano and voice lessons and choir. So we went online and I had him take the chapter tests, thinking we'd start where his knowledge left off. He aced every test.

 

My thinking, and I could be totally wrong, is that by living life we acquire a certain amount of cultural / artistic knowledge. So any kid who has had ballet or music or whatever, ought to have enough exposure to have that requirement waived.

 

Frankly, I think it's a good idea.

[Lori D.]

Mail from U of Missouri came yesterday, and my daughter noticed that they require a fine arts credit for admission... Is this common? ...who else requires this?

 

 

All the admission requirements of the state universities I've looked at -- either in my state, or when helping someone else with admissions for another state -- all list 1 year Fine Arts along with the rest of the requirements.

 

Usually the requirements for admission for college freshman are:

4 credits = English Composition & Literature

4 credits = Math (Alg. 1, Geom, Alg. 2, and an advanced math for which Alg. 2 was a prerequisite)

3 credits = Science with labs (usually biology and chemistry are preferred, but this is often flexible)

2 credits = Social Sciences/Social Studies = 1 credit American History; 1 credit (choice)

2 credits = Foreign Language (of same language)

1 credit = Fine Arts (can be combination of fine arts areas)

 

 

However, I'd first contact Univ. of MO (if that is where she is going to attend), and find out how firm they are on that specific requirement. They may not be worried about that at all, esp. when it's a high-performing academics student coming their way.

 

If they are a real stickler about it, see if they will allow you to submit a homeschool transcript to count the ballet hours your DD did in high school as a high school Fine Arts Performance credit. If they will allow that, then you just create a transcript with similar information as the public school transcript to account for the Fine Arts credit. And so you submit TWO transcripts (your "homeschool" one and the public school one) when applying for entrance to the University.

 

And if they REALLY are sticky about it, AND won't count the ballet, what about knocking out an online summer school course or one semester course through the CC that would count -- Theater Appreciation; Art or Music Appreciation; Film Appreciation; a photography class.... etc.

 

 

My guess is that it won't be a problem, but always best to get this figured out in advance AND GET IT IN WRITING from the University. BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

[cbollin]

U of Memphis requires 1 credit. Do you have any options for a summer class as dual enrollment for it? Harding University in Searcy, Arkansas has a 2 week Honors summer enrichment class that can be used as fine arts. and a summer choir week

http://www.harding.edu/symposium/

http://www.harding.edu/honorchoir/

 

maybe something like that at a university near you could be an option that could work toward a college accepting it as good enough for fine arts for freshman admissions? I'd start to look for summer options or summer school at high schools

[elegantlion]

I thought it was common, but I'm in MO, so I've found that requirement from colleges in state. It is part of our state graduation requirements for public schools, 1 credit minimum of fine arts.

 

There are plenty of ways to earn that credit.

 

This is the blurb from the state graduation handbook:

 

 

"Fine Arts

Missouri high school graduates must earn at least one unit, which must be from the

following: music, visual arts, dance, or theatre. The content ensures that students master

fundamental knowledge of the subject, including history, aesthetics, and criticism, and are able

to produce or perform at an introductory level in at least one area of fine arts.

 

 

Interpretative Notes: Only music, visual arts, dance, or theatre may be counted

toward meeting the minimum requirements. Foreign language (including ASL),

literature, literature appreciation, speech, debate, radio and television, and stagecraft

may not be counted. To earn fine-arts credit for marching band or drum corps,

students must also play musical instruments and participate during times of concert

or performing activities."

[8filltheheart]

Almost every school we have looked at requires one. Some schools state on their website that if a course like that (foreign lang is another) has not been completed as a high school credit, they will admit the student on the condition that the courses are completed within something like 4 semesters of enrollment.

 

I wouldn't dismiss it. I would make a few phone calls and ask admissions.

 

FWIW, art history via TC lectures is the backbone of my kids' fine art credit.

[Pawz4me]

USC is not a part of the UC system and does not require a fine arts credit for admission.

 

Please re-read my post. The USC I refer to is the University of South Carolina.

[plansrme]

Well this has been very enlightening, and I am so glad we (she) figured this out while she has time to do something about it. She may end up applying to colleges with 3 hears of public high school and 1 year of homeschool high school, in which case I've got fine arts covered, thanks to ballet. If she spends all 4 years at her high school, she has plenty of time to fit in fine arts without sacrificing an academic credit, but it is not (was not) on her plan. Guess it is now! The suggestion to do a fine arts intensive of sorts for college admissions purposes, even if her high school would not grant credit, might also be a good option. She is crazy busy in the summer with gymnastics, but we might be able to squeeze out two weeks somewhere. We had already looked at our state's virtual school, and it doesn't have anything we can use, but I had not really thought about using another source that would be accepted for college but not her high school.

 

Thanks, everyone.

 

P.S.: No, she is not necessarily applying to U of MO. That's whose mail just happened to raise the subject.

[FaithManor]

Some colleges are rather picky about this, others not so much.

 

We require it here at home. DD became an accomplished pianist, however, this was through private lessons with me and I listed it in her extracurriculars. For credit, she completed the first half of "Bruce Benwards's In Theory and Practice" volume 1 with me. It was my old freshman college text which was covered over two semesters. So, we did half of it and I made very similar assignments to the ones I did in college and just made sure my expectations were reasonable since she wasn't a college major. She also completed an art appreciation course for credit.

 

Ds is taking classical guitar lessons, however his teacher while great teaching technique is abysmal at teaching theory and not at all knowledgeable in music history. Again, I'll list it for an extracurricular but there is no way in the world it could ever be claimed as credit despite all the time he spends practicing. Last year we covered Janson's "History of Art for Young People" along with Sister Wendy videos, art museum trips, and lots of note taking plus writing assignments including essay writing. I awarded 1 credit of Art History. This year we used "Masterpieces of the Louvre" from the Great Courses in combo with Sister Wendy's History of Painting plus some other odds and end resources for 1/2 credit of art history and then I am using "How to Listen to and Understand Great Music" from the Great Courses plus three levels of basic music theory books designed for intermediate to advanced non-adult instrumentalists. He wasn't quite ready yet for the Bruce Benward. However, it's more theory than is taught in any high school I know of except the few that offer the AP Music course and he is again doing some writing, as well as watching a number of performances and discussing the music with me. That's the other 1/2 credit. So, he'll end up with two fine arts credits out of this.

 

Middle DS really does not care about fine arts. However, I do feel he needs to do something. So, we are looking into MIT's Opencourseware "The Art of Color" using the Johannes Itten book to see if it appropriate. I've only begun my investigation so I don't know it this will work or if it requires a more intensive art background to complete.

 

Youngest Ds will likely do music theory for a year, maybe not as advanced as dd's course, but definitely high school level. He likes the technical elements of any subject he studies, particularly patterns and mathematics, so topics such as the Well Tempered Tuning System, modes, and the circle of 5ths fascinate him.

 

Faith

[Lori D.]

The suggestion to do a fine arts intensive of sorts for college admissions purposes, even if her high school would not grant credit, might also a good option. She is crazy busy in the summer with gymnastics, but we might be able to squeeze out two weeks somewhere.

 

 

If you do go with an outside of the high school option, just to prepare you, online or on-campus summer school courses are either 5 or 8 weeks long. It *might* be possible to jam all 5 weeks of an online community college course into 2 weeks, but it wouldn't be pretty...

 

And if you are "doing it yourself", one high school credit is typically 120-180 hours, depending on how you count it. Two 60-90 hour weeks to knock out a credit sounds like heck-on-wheels and a stroke in the making to me...

 

JMO! :D BEST of luck in getting this figured out fitted into the schedule! Warmly, Lori D.

[EKS]

Please re-read my post. The USC I refer to is the University of South Carolina. And I assure you they DO require a fine arts credit for admission. Or one of their admissions people is seriously misinformed.

 

I apologize--I was combining your post with the OP in my mind.

 

The University of California schools require a fine arts credit (which I think is totally stupid), but lots of people mistakenly think USC (University of Southern California--a private school) is a part of the UC system.

 

Sorry about that!

[teachermom2834]

University of Tennessee requires it. Mine would rather do just about anything than take a fine art. I've offered lots of suggestions and settled on a music appreciation course from Kolbe. There would have been easier ways to do it but my kid is more comfortable with an academic appreciation course than actually having to do anything artsy.

[plansrme]

UT, USC, U of Mo. Darn. Guess if the SEC schools are requiring if, we had better get it covered. Lots of ideas here, but I never thought I would be counting on ballet to satisfy college admission requirements for this kid. (And yes, I will go back and count up the appropriate number of hours.)

 

[MorningGlory]

Terri, I'm surprised that your daughter's high school doesn't require a fine arts credit for graduation. I know she is attending a magnet school (right?), but I would still think they would require fine arts. My state and thus my cover school requires a fine arts credit for high school graduation...thank goodness...or I would have probably left it off, too. My very science/math oriented fellow has chosen photography as his fine arts credit. He probably won't rack up enough hours studying/doing it in one year, so I am going to just keep up with over time until I can call it a credit.

[plansrme]

Terri, I'm surprised that your daughter's high school doesn't require a fine arts credit for graduation. I know she is attending a magnet school (right?), but I would still think they would require fine arts. My state and thus my cover school requires a fine arts credit for high school graduation...thank goodness...or I would have probably left it off, too. My very science/math oriented fellow has chosen photography as his fine arts credit. He probably won't rack up enough hours studying/doing it in one year, so I am going to just keep up with over time until I can call it a credit.

 

I know! I was surprised as well, after starting to look at this yesterday, so I tracked down the graduation requirements and I found that they require 3 credits of technology and/or fine arts and/or a couple of other things (including foreign language). She will have technology credits to spare, as well as two years of a foreign language.

 

She actually looked at a photography class, but it has a prerequisite she does not have time to take. She's asked a friend about music appreciation, and this friend says it is an easy, easy A, and the music they are taught to appreciate is all rock music. What a waste of time! Not music appreciation generally, of course--I would love for it to focus on classical or other (or all) genres, but what high schooler needs to be taught to appreciate rock music? There are no dance fine arts credits available at her school, though I am sure she would have enjoyed that as well.

 

This is such a silly dilemma, but at least it is one that can be solved.

 

Terri

[8filltheheart]

 

? There are no dance fine arts credits available at her school, though I am sure she would have enjoyed that as well.

 

 

 

Some areas do not allow performing arts to satisfy a fine arts credit. Some areas allow either fine arts or technology credits. It really pays to know your state's advanced diploma requirements and the admission criteria of the various schools that your child is interested in. (we are having to alter our history studies for ds's sr yr b/c one of the schools he interested in requires a specific history course for admission or they must take it once admitted. Since he is math/science, much easier to meet the criteria in high school than at the college.)

[Caroline]

Mail from U of Missouri came yesterday, and my daughter noticed that they require a fine arts credit for admission. Her quick research indicates that the California unis do as well. Is this common? After three years of high school, she is going to have 47 hours of credit between APs and DE (and not CC, that's Calc 2 and 3 from GA Tech), and she might not be eligible for admission to U of Missouri because she's never taken show choir? Is this common? She has her schedule out and is trying to figure out what to drop over the next two years so she can take music appreciation, but I have never heard of such a thing and am wondering how common it is. If she were still homeschooled, I would add up all of her years of ballet and call it good, but I'm thinking her public school might not be quite so accommodating.

 

So what say you--who else requires this?

 

Terri

 

 

What about taking something through GA Virtual? (You can PM me, if you want. I teach high school in in the Atlanta area.)

[Jane in NC]

The NC House has just passed a bill (H127) requiring one year of arts education in high school. I don't know if the Senate will also approve it and, if they do, when it will go into effect (assuming the governor signs it as well). If it does pass, I assume it would become a requirement of applicants to the UNC system.

 

This is more of a heads up for those with middle school aged children. It usually takes a while for these things to be established.

[Nicole M]

 

I know! I was surprised as well, after starting to look at this yesterday, so I tracked down the graduation requirements and I found that they require 3 credits of technology and/or fine arts and/or a couple of other things (including foreign language). She will have technology credits to spare, as well as two years of a foreign language.

 

She actually looked at a photography class, but it has a prerequisite she does not have time to take. She's asked a friend about music appreciation, and this friend says it is an easy, easy A, and the music they are taught to appreciate is all rock music. What a waste of time! Not music appreciation generally, of course--I would love for it to focus on classical or other (or all) genres, but what high schooler needs to be taught to appreciate rock music? There are no dance fine arts credits available at her school, though I am sure she would have enjoyed that as well.

 

This is such a silly dilemma, but at least it is one that can be solved.

 

Terri

 

This is totally an aside, but I want to throw out there that my best buddy is a musicologist and teaches music history as a freshman seminar course at the college where I work. The freshman seminars are designed to introduce students to rigorous academic reading, journals and scholarly work, to help them learn to engage at a deeper level. My friend taught a class on Elvis recently, and one on post-punk. (His areas of specialty are Renaissance music and, get this: U2. Ha!) The students come in thinking, hey, it's rock! I like music! And then they are slammed. I'm not saying that the HS music appreciation class that you're describing isn't possibly silly, but that rock can be a valid area of study.

 

You know, all these hoops we have to jump through — they are opportunities to engage with things that we may choose never to do again, and how we approach them makes all the difference. And you're right, totally solvable dilemma.

[Nicole M]

The NC House has just passed a bill (H127) requiring one year of arts education in high school. I don't know if the Senate will also approve it and, if they do, when it will go into effect (assuming the governor signs it as well). If it does pass, I assume it would become a requirement of applicants to the UNC system.

 

This is more of a heads up for those with middle school aged children. It usually takes a while for these things to be established.

 

 

And one more aside: I just checked, and here in Washington, we also require a fine arts credit to graduate from HS. That reminded me of something that happened when my oldest was applying for college. I was working on his transcript and thought I would just take a peek at our state requirements to see whether we were in the ballpark, and as I sat gazing at the screen, I mumbled, "This is amazing." And from across the room my older son piped up, "What? The low standards?" That's so mean. But, still. It makes me chuckle.

[Jenny in Florida]

The University of California schools require a fine arts credit (which I think is totally stupid) . . .

 

May I ask why?

 

Why is requiring at least a passing familiarity with the arts any more "stupid" than any other general education requirement?

 

Personally, I can go off on quite a rant about the disservice I believe we're doing to our kids by simultaneously funnelling them into algebra earlier and earlier and still requiring four years of math in high school, since even some of the brightest and most academically capable kids I know have no need to slog through that much math.

 

But I doubt I'd get a whole lot of support or agreement about that around here. Yet it's perfectly find to call it "stupid" to require young adults to spend one year learning about arts and culture, a huge part of what makes us human?

 

(For what it's worth, my kids will both have managed to cover both bases before I let them graduate from my homeschool. It's completely do-able.)

[EKS]

May I ask why?

 

I find a lot about UC admissions requirements stupid.

 

I guess my reason for saying that the fine arts requirement is stupid is--why fine arts? Why not computer science? Or robotics? Or PE?

 

I agree with you about the math thing, BTW.

 

I also don't understand why schools (not just UC) require four years of English--every or almost every one does. What is so important about analyzing literature? I mean, how is that more important than anything else? If most high school literature courses focused on writing (not just literary analysis but all types of writing) and reading complex text (not just literature but all types of text) I could see it, but that generally is not the case.

[regentrude]

I also don't understand why schools (not just UC) require four years of English--every or almost every one does. What is so important about analyzing literature? I mean, how is that more important than anything else? If most high school literature courses focused on writing (not just literary analysis but all types of writing) and reading complex text (not just literature but all types of text) I could see it, but that generally is not the case.

 

 

Are you sarcastic, or serious?

According to my colleagues in the English department, 20-25% of students enter college with a level of reading comprehension below what is necessary for college success. (Nationally, 20% of college students require remedial reading instruction.). I would argue that studying one's native language and literature every year would be a minimum requirement for an educated person. Being able to read is more important than anything else, IMO.

 

Actually, I find the bar hanging rather low as far as entrance requirements are concerned. (But that may be my cultural background; in my home country, calculus and two foreign languages studied for 7 and 10 years, respectively, are mandatory requirements for any student who wants to enter a university.)

[Arcadia]

I find a lot about UC admissions requirements stupid.

 

I guess my reason for saying that the fine arts requirement is stupid is--why fine arts?

 

"F) Visual and performing arts

 

UC-approved high school courses

 

One yearlong course of visual and performing arts chosen from the following: dance, drama/theater, music or visual art

 

AP or IB Examination

 

Score of 3, 4 or 5 on the AP History of Art, Studio Art or Music Theory Exam;

score of 5, 6 or 7 on any one IB HL exam in Dance, Film, Music, Theatre Arts or Visual Arts"

 

I don't find the Fine Arts requirement that hard to meet. I don't find the rest of the UC admissions requirements hard or annoying either.

I had what would be the equivalent of an IEP here for PE. I flop my annual PE exams all the way from 1st to 12th grade.

 

ETA:

Fine Arts can be a great de-stressor for STEM students though.

[regentrude]

I don't find the rest of the UC admissions requirements hard or annoying either.

 

Slightly OT: Do I interpret the info on the link correctly:

English

Four years of college-preparatory English that include frequent writing, from brainstorming to final paper, as well as reading of classic and modern literature.

 

SAT Reasoning Examination

 

Writing section: Score of 560 satisfies first three years; score of 680 satisfies entire four-year requirement.

ACT Plus Writing

 

Combined English/Writing score of 24 satisfies first three years; score of 30 satisfies entire requirement.

 

If the student scores a 24 on the reading/Writing on the ACT or a 560 on the SAT, he only has to take one year of actual high school English???

[EKS]

Are you sarcastic, or serious?

According to my colleagues in the English department, 20-25% of students enter college with a level of reading comprehension below what is necessary for college success. (Nationally, 20% of college students require remedial reading instruction.). I would argue that studying one's native language and literature every year would be a minimum requirement for an educated person. Being able to read is more important than anything else, IMO.

 

Actually, I find the bar hanging rather low as far as entrance requirements are concerned. (But that may be my cultural background; in my home country, calculus and two foreign languages studied for 7 and 10 years, respectively, are mandatory requirements for any student who wants to enter a university.)

 

I'm serious.

 

It is a rare high school English class that reads more than 1-2 novels per semester. They might read a bit of poetry and a few short stories, but maybe not too. And they probably aren't going to read any heavy going complex nonfiction text at all. As for studying English as a language--there is essentially no grammar instruction anywhere in the K-12 curriculum. And writing is not taught explicitly--kids are given assignments and teachers hope for the best. Obviously there are exceptions, but I'd be willing to bet that this describes *most* kids' experiences in high school English classes.

 

Given this, it doesn't surprise me that students enter college unable to read college text well.

 

So my disgruntlement is due to the fact that the *reality* of high school English classes doesn't match with the importance they are given in college admissions requirements.

[regentrude]

It is a rare high school English class that reads more than 1-2 novels per semester. They might read a bit of poetry and a few short stories, but maybe not too. And they probably aren't going to read any heavy going complex nonfiction text at all. As for studying English as a language--there is essentially no grammar instruction anywhere in the K-12 curriculum. And writing is not taught explicitly--kids are given assignments and teachers hope for the best. Obviously there are exceptions, but I'd be willing to bet that this describes *most* kids' experiences in high school English classes.

 

Given this, it doesn't surprise me that students enter college unable to read college text well.

 

So my disgruntlement is due to the fact that the *reality* of high school English classes doesn't match with the importance they are given in college admissions requirements.

 

OK, I understand your point.

I imagine that, if these kids were not forced to take those (admittedly, often weak) English classes, many of them would not read anything at all. Shudder.

[EKS]

][/b]

I don't find the Fine Arts requirement that hard to meet. I don't find the rest of the UC admissions requirements hard or annoying either.

 

I don't see the fine arts requirement as difficult to meet either.

 

I find the UC admissions requirements annoying because they require homeschoolers and out of state students (whose schools don't have a-g approved courses) to apply to be admitted by exam (not so great for kids who don't test well) or admitted by exception (which is a rather nebulous designation).

 

Of course, I was admitted to a UC school by exam way back in the dawn of time, so maybe I should be a little less critical...

[Arcadia]

Slightly OT: Do I interpret the info on the link correctly:

 

If the student scores a 24 on the reading/Writing on the ACT or a 560 on the SAT, he only has to take one year of actual high school English???

 

 

I don't know how it works for English but it does work that way for their foreign language requirements.

 

So my disgruntlement is due to the fact that the *reality* of high school English classes doesn't match with the importance they are given in college admissions requirements.

 

I see that as a problem within the high school system rather than with UC admission requirements. I do agree that reality don't match well even with California's high school graduation requirements.

I find the UC admissions requirements annoying because they require homeschoolers and out of state students (whose schools don't have a-g approved courses) to apply to be admitted by exam (not so great for kids who don't test well) or admitted by exception (which is a rather nebulous designation).

 

 

I guess I was comparing to UCB's add-on requirements which make the general UC admission requirements seems mild. UCB is the nearest UC to my home (ETA: UC Santa Cruz is nearer than UCB by 4miles according to google maps but I tend to get car sick on the drive to Santa Cruz).

[Sunshine State Sue]

Ooh. I wish I hadn't wandered over to this board. Ignorance is bliss.

DS seems to believe (for no concrete reason) that it's something they'd overlook if they otherwise felt he was a great fit.

 

I'm in your ds's campl. Ds has 1/2 credit of guitar. I was hoping that would be good enough.

"Fine Arts

Missouri high school graduates must earn at least one unit, which must be from the

following: music, visual arts, dance, or theatre. The content ensures that students master

fundamental knowledge of the subject, including history, aesthetics, and criticism, and are able

to produce or perform at an introductory level in at least one area of fine arts.

 

Interpretative Notes: Only music, visual arts, dance, or theatre may be counted

toward meeting the minimum requirements. Foreign language (including ASL),

literature, literature appreciation, speech, debate, radio and television, and stagecraft

may not be counted. To earn fine-arts credit for marching band or drum corps,

students must also play musical instruments and participate during times of concert

or performing activities."

 

Our CC guidelines consider speech as "performing fine arts". Would any other college argue with that? I would consider it English myself. I have been trying to convince ds (unsuccessfully) to take speech at CC. Maybe this will convince him?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

 

I'm serious.

 

It is a rare high school English class that reads more than 1-2 novels per semester. They might read a bit of poetry and a few short stories, but maybe not too. And they probably aren't going to read any heavy going complex nonfiction text at all. As for studying English as a language--there is essentially no grammar instruction anywhere in the K-12 curriculum. And writing is not taught explicitly--kids are given assignments and teachers hope for the best. Obviously there are exceptions, but I'd be willing to bet that this describes *most* kids' experiences in high school English classes.

 

Given this, it doesn't surprise me that students enter college unable to read college text well.

 

So my disgruntlement is due to the fact that the *reality* of high school English classes doesn't match with the importance they are given in college admissions requirements.

 

 

If what you say were taken as a given how would doing away with the course requirements fix the inadequate reading and writing prep?

 

 

[EKS]

If what you say were taken as a given how would doing away with the course requirements fix the inadequate reading and writing prep?

 

 

I didn't claim that it would.

[Lori D.]

Ooh. I wish I hadn't wandered over to this board. Ignorance is bliss.

 

I'm in your ds's campl. Ds has 1/2 credit of guitar. I was hoping that would be good enough.

 

Our CC guidelines consider speech as "performing fine arts". Would any other college argue with that? I would consider it English myself. I have been trying to convince ds (unsuccessfully) to take speech at CC. Maybe this will convince him?

 

Hmm... Well, I'm with you in that *I* would count it as the rhetoric part of an English credit. But in a quick online look at the requirements of half a dozen different universities, I see nowhere that they stipulate WHAT counts as Fine Arts; just that they want a Fine Arts credit. It appears to me that the restrictions come more from high school districts determining what will count as a Fine Arts credit for high school graduation.

 

However, as always, best to check with universities you think DS might consider attending and see what they say! :)

 

And, if Speech isn't going to cut it, then what about a 1 semester class in something like Film History/Appreciation? Or a Digital Arts software (Photoshop, e.g.) class? BEST of luck, Sue! Hugs, Lori D.

[Jenny in Florida]

I find a lot about UC admissions requirements stupid.

 

I guess my reason for saying that the fine arts requirement is stupid is--why fine arts? Why not computer science? Or robotics? Or PE?

 

I agree with you about the math thing, BTW.

 

I also don't understand why schools (not just UC) require four years of English--every or almost every one does. What is so important about analyzing literature? I mean, how is that more important than anything else? If most high school literature courses focused on writing (not just literary analysis but all types of writing) and reading complex text (not just literature but all types of text) I could see it, but that generally is not the case.

 

 

Well, it is clear that you and I come at this from very different starting points.

 

For what it's worth, our state high schools do require a year each of computer science and PE for graduation, as well as four years each of math and English. So, in that context, one puny year of fine arts study seems a pretty minor "sacrifice" to make, even for the most STEM-minded student.

 

And, I'm not sure what English classes you are seeing, but my son's class most definitely does focus quite a bit on writing of various types and on reading different kinds of texts.

 

Of course, as a former English major, I bristle at the idea that reading and analyzing literature isn't at least as important as plugging numbers into equations.

 

But, in general, why fine arts? I suppose it's because arts have been around pretty much as long as we've been human and have been an integral part of the human experience. Art both reflects and influences society. Art is how we process grief and express joy. It's a pretty big deal, actually.

 

(And, to appeal to the more analytical among us, there's also plenty of reseach that shows kids who have formal arts study as part of their curricula do better across the board, academically.)

[regentrude]

(And, to appeal to the more analytical among us, there's also plenty of reseach that shows kids who have formal arts study as part of their curricula do better across the board, academically.)

 

I am very much in favor of Arts education and think it should be greatly expanded and not cut as it is currently the case. However, when I read claims like this, I immediately question causality and correlation:

Have they corrected for the fact that a child's exposure to arts education is correlated to the parents' level of education and involvement? (IOW, the kids who do early music education, study piano, go to summer arts programs have parents who consider this a priority themselves. Even signing up the kid for school choir or band is a self-selective action.)

Have they considered that schools who can afford extensive arts and music programs are typically the ones in more affluent districts (Arts being the first program to be cut when funding cuts arise)?

That the fact that kids in choir and band do better academically may be because participation in those activities is liked to a minimum GPA?

I would like to believe that Arts education can be a fix for academic problems, but I have not yet seen data clean enough to show that.

(And I really think arts should be studied just because, NOT with the goal of improving academic test scores.)

[FaithManor]

 

I would like to believe that Arts education can be a fix for academic problems, but I have not yet seen data clean enough to show that.

(And I really think arts should be studied just because, NOT with the goal of improving academic test scores.)

 

 

I agree that the arts should be studied period.

 

In terms of music, I've taken several "neurological learning" courses and studies have shown that learning to play a musical instrument past an early intermediate level, does have a VERY positive bearing on academic achievement. This is because playing an instrument in conjunction with learning to read music causes the corpus collosum (connective tissue full of motor neurons that bridges the two hemispheres of the brain) to grow. The studies were well done...tracking students prior to music lessons by MRI in the control group (students who would not be signing up for band or private lessons), vs. those of the students who would be in band or taking private instruction and across a fairly diverse economic group. The corpus collosums of the music students were much larger and their hemispheres worked cooperatively more efficiently than those of the non-music students. However, learning an instrument was key because it requires the use of both sides of the body at the same time forcing, co-hemispheric activity. Vocal instruction only did not produce such startling results though still better than the non-music students.

 

As for art, in terms of painting, drawing, sculpting, etc...I haven't seen those studies so I'm not certain. Researchers were going to start a study of these disciplines, but since these studies take many years to produce while they track students from preschool age through high school, I don't know if there are any results yet.

 

In terms of anecdotal evidence, when I was in school the teachers in middle school always fought over who got to teach "band classes". I don't mean they wanted to take over for the band director, they just wanted to be assigned the groups of students whose schedules included band. We were kind of segregated in that way. If the 7th grade class had 125 students, they would break this down into five groups of 25 kids with two groups having the 50 band students and the other three groups containing either one or two if there were more than 50 band kids (not common in my rural school district) or having none. Frankly, the band kids appeared to be more disciplined (probably self-regulating since they were willing to learn how to play an instrument which means, possibly more impulse control and more willingness to work indendently), and generally, mostly honor roll (b or better grades in every subject).

 

I attribute that phenomenon to several things and parental involvement is one. Our area is not known for high incomes and the schools provided the instruments for many kids. They weren't high end instruments, but got the job done. So, economic advantage wasn't it because we had a lot of poor kids in the band and they were good players. My guess is that mom and dad put pressure on Johnny to practice if Johnny didn't want to and these parents ALWAYS showed up with bells on for band concerts, solo and ensemble, etc. with many volleying for the scholarships that would allow their child to attend Blue Lakes Fine Arts Camp.

 

The second is that our band director liked having an excellent band and he was tough. You had to practice to stay in band. He did not string along the less than committed players. So, that meant these kids were practicing after school instead of doing other things. Homework, then get out the instrument...it was a formula that helped mold them for success. Since he was an excellent band teacher, this meant if you stuck with your instrument through high school, you became a great player and really enjoyed making beautiful music. By default, a lot of good self-esteem resulted from band and that means a happier student, a student who had something to look forward to during the school day, etc.

 

Since band was considered an academic discipline, there were no "eligibility" requirements to continue to participate - other than you better practice because MR. B. would make your life miserable if you didn't and you'd end up dropping band. However, by 10th grade, I'd say that very, very few students allowed a grade to drop below a C+ in any area. Thus, band students were the top performing students in the school. This perpetuated the persona that band students were easy to teach.

 

Of course the same students, whose parents had gotten involved way back in 4th or 5th grade with their child in band, had a tendancy to then just plain be involved from then on out...we saw them ALL.THE.TIME. volunteering at school. "Band Mom" was a badge of honor. That kind of involvement is a huge predictor of future success for students. It's not that kids whose parents are uninvolved will never succeed, but just that this is sure is beneficial to the student...to see mom and dad role model that school is important, that band is important, that the self-discipline required to become really good at something that is the LEAST important to the school (sports always, always, always reigned supreme and does to this day to the exclusion of just about all other considerations) is indeed, worth pursuing - that kind of example lends itself to producing kids with a hearty work ethic.

 

In that respect, probably music does lead directly to academic achievement. I do know that European schools use the Kodaly and Orff methods to teach general music in the younger grades during the school day as part of academics or at least this was true when I was in college and we were researching these methods in our music education courses. Based on what I know, I'd have to conclude that there may very well be something to this music ed thing relating to higher achievement. These two methods do VERY good things for the young, developing brain and since music is a branch of mathematics, I can see this all working together. However, I don't have any "proof" concerning studies of these methods upon a diverse enough group of students to say it with any weight.

 

I'd post the other studies, but I'd have to go through about five boxes from my former elementary teaching days, and sift through a lot of papers to find them. I'm feeling to lazy to do it at the present time! :D

 

Faith

[regentrude]

Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed response, Faith.

I am aware of the studies pertaining to serious study of music, i.e. learning to play an instrument, reading music etc, and I do not doubt the effect this has on brain development.

What I am not sure of is how less rigorous arts exposure like music appreciation, arts appreciation etc contribute. I can clearly imagine the mechanisms that are in effect for a serious musician; I have a harder time envisioning what effect just listening to music or looking at art are going to have, if that makes any sense.

So, in a sense, I would say that not all "arts education" is created equal.

[FaithManor]

Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed response, Faith.

I am aware of the studies pertaining to serious study of music, i.e. learning to play an instrument, reading music etc, and I do not doubt the effect this has on brain development.

What I am not sure of is how less rigorous arts exposure like music appreciation, arts appreciation etc contribute. I can clearly imagine the mechanisms that are in effect for a serious musician; I have a harder time envisioning what effect just listening to music or looking at art are going to have, if that makes any sense.

So, in a sense, I would say that not all "arts education" is created equal.

 

 

Agreed! I also think we both feel there is value in those kinds of studies beyond just some correlation to academic achievement. Personally, I think it's pretty short-sighted to study human history or seek to understand culture in the vacuum of not studying, music, art, architecture, etc. and when I say study, I mean more than the single paragraph on these subjects that appears in World History texts.

 

But, back to general music or art studies leading to greater academic achievement, that is why I'd like to see some long term studies on the Kodaly and Orff methods used in the younger grades in other countries. From my perspective, these methods do appear, while being "general music appreciation" to have the potential to positively affect future achievement; these are physically interactive methodologies.

 

Since vocal instruction did not produce as stellar results, my guess is that general studies would not do so either and would likely be even less effective than choir and voice lessons. However, I have no data to support that opinion.

 

Faith

[regentrude]

Agreed! I also think we both feel there is value in those kinds of studies beyond just some correlation to academic achievement. Personally, I think it's pretty short-sighted to study human history or seek to understand culture in the vacuum of not studying, music, art, architecture, etc. and when I say study, I mean more than the single paragraph on these subjects that appears in World History texts.

 

 

Yes!

 

Since vocal instruction did not produce as stellar results, my guess is that general studies would not do so either and would likely be even less effective than choir and voice lessons. However, I have no data to support that opinion.

 

 

I am wondering whether this has anything to do with voice vs instrument per se, or with the time spent.

 

It could be that the conscious physical manipulation of the instrument might be an important factor. It is established that sense of balance and walking/climbing in rough terrain is related to cognitive abilities; so maybe the fine motor control involved in playing an instrument contributes to the effect.

OTOH, it could also simply be related to time on task. Instrumentalists spend vastly more time practicing than vocalists; a singer can not practice for six hours daily. And this starts in school: band kids practice every night at home, most choir kids only practice at choir rehearsal.

[EKS]

Well, it is clear that you and I come at this from very different starting points.

 

For what it's worth, our state high schools do require a year each of computer science and PE for graduation, as well as four years each of math and English. So, in that context, one puny year of fine arts study seems a pretty minor "sacrifice" to make, even for the most STEM-minded student.

 

And, I'm not sure what English classes you are seeing, but my son's class most definitely does focus quite a bit on writing of various types and on reading different kinds of texts.

 

Of course, as a former English major, I bristle at the idea that reading and analyzing literature isn't at least as important as plugging numbers into equations.

 

But, in general, why fine arts? I suppose it's because arts have been around pretty much as long as we've been human and have been an integral part of the human experience. Art both reflects and influences society. Art is how we process grief and express joy. It's a pretty big deal, actually.

 

(And, to appeal to the more analytical among us, there's also plenty of reseach that shows kids who have formal arts study as part of their curricula do better across the board, academically.)

 

 

To be clear--If UC (a state system, not a specialty school) required a year of computer science instead of fine arts, I'd think that was stupid too.

 

And the issue isn't whether reading and analyzing literature is *at least* as important as math but whether it is *more* important. (I'd also like to think that a decent math course is about more than "plugging numbers into equations.)

[regentrude]

(I'd also like to think that a decent math course is about more than "plugging numbers into equations.)

 

Yes. Actually, the more actual mathematics is in a course, the fewer the numbers and the plugging.

Whenever I see additional requirements like this, I wonder what the new thing is replacing. Ultimately, there are only so many hours in the day, and I'd prefer to plan our high school years to focus on subjects that take more than one year. That is, I hope to have four years of math, four years of a modern foreign language, four years of an ancient language, four years of science, English and history. That doesn't leave much time for extras. If I had a very arty child, I might swap the four years of ancient language for, say music performance. But just squeezing in one year of "fine arts"? Sounds like a throw-away, check-box to me.

[Lori D.]

Whenever I see additional requirements like this, I wonder what the new thing is replacing.

 

 

 

 

JMO:

I think many factors are at work:

 

1. 20-30 years ago when we were all in high school, computers were not such an integrated part of our society; so computer tech is a new requirement so many schools that had computers at that time offered it as an elective, not a required credit.

 

2. In the past 10 years or so, Fine Arts and Humanities have really been taking a hit. Funding for the Arts has been drastically slashed -- the Arts is one of the first things to go when the economy goes bad. And Humanities have been taking a hit, likely because of the long decline in test scores...

 

3. ... which leads to the recent increase in required number of math and science courses to beef up the U.S. in STEM students and skills. When I was in public high school, my school only required 2 sciences and 2 maths (Alg. 1 and Geometry). Now most high schools (and college admissions) require 3 sciences and 4 maths -- with 2 of the maths being Alg. 2 plus a math that requires Alg. 2 as a pre-requisite.

 

4. And the push in the last decade or more to live a life that is always on "maximum" has resulted in several consequences:

 

- Back when I graduated from public high school, the minimum number of required credits was 16, with 4 electives, so we all graduated with 20 credits; now the minimum is usually 20 required credits, with 2-4 electives, so most students graduate with at least 22-24 credits -- and many schools have moved to "block scheduling" in order to churn out students who have 28-32 credits for graduation. :eek:

 

- People work more overtime; and people rarely indulge any more in the arts for pleasure and relaxation -- as a result, Fine Arts gets pushed out of our daily lives, and along with falling out of our lives, the Arts fall out of our schools.

 

Check out this 1993 chart of required credits for high school graduation by state. Definitely a jump in the number of required credits in each of the areas of math, science foreign language requirements today, 20 years later. And note the first column on the far left is the number of overall required credits for high school graduation in 1980 -- big jump!

 

Warmly, Lori D.

[Jenny in Florida]

To be clear--If UC (a state system, not a specialty school) required a year of computer science instead of fine arts, I'd think that was stupid too.

 

And the issue isn't whether reading and analyzing literature is *at least* as important as math but whether it is *more* important. (I'd also like to think that a decent math course is about more than "plugging numbers into equations.)

 

 

 

First, I have to apologize. I was conflating various sets of requirements in my brain earlier. Florida state colleges and universities do not require either fine arts or computer science for admission. I think I was thinking of the general education requirements for an associate's degree when I typed my comments above, and I apologize for any confusion.

 

With that said, as I research Florida colleges for my son, I see that pretty much all of them require:

 

- four years of math (algebra I and higher)

- four years of English

- three years of science (at least two with labs)

- three years of social sciences

- two years of foreign language

 

Things may be different in California, but it looks to me like math and English carry about the same weight here.

 

Our county public schools have more or less the same requirements for graduation, but they add one year each of physical education and fine or performing arts.

 

(And I'm sure you would like to think that about a decent math course. But, for the non-STEM focused among us, those classes are exactly that exciting and worthwhile.)

[Katy]

If we were heavily interested in something not covered by our school we were allowed to arrange an independent study course for credit through our advisor that just involved a proposal and a portfolio. If you have documentation of classes and recitals since high school and your daughter's school has such a program, it might be as easy as her typing up a report about the subject, giving a brief speech to her advisor, and showing the videos. Call her guidance office and ask.

[Nan in Mass]

Lori D - About those high school graduation requirements... I think the big difference is in the requirements for the non-college track (which is what shows on those charts). The college track requirements haven't changed that much between when I was applying to college and when my children applied to college. I think the change has more to do with the push to give all students some post secondary education? Maybe?

 

Nan

[Lori D.]

Lori D - About those high school graduation requirements... I think the big difference is in the requirements for the non-college track (which is what shows on those charts). The college track requirements haven't changed that much between when I was applying to college and when my children applied to college. I think the change has more to do with the push to give all students some post secondary education? Maybe?

 

Nan

 

 

 

Thanks for bringing that up, Nan. You are right about the 2 tracks for high school graduation requirements. I realize my heading is sloppy and inaccurate and is causing some confusion -- I was thinking about high schoolers graduating and being able to go straight to college, and so used the phrase high school, when what I *really* meant was "college freshman admission requirements". ;) I'll go change my post and any future reader... :)

 

hugs, Lori