So many issues I don't know where to begin

[MomatHWTK]

I think that is the key- I was a student at a rural school in the 80's. Talk about not having options! It is great that we can approach learning in a deeper way now.

 

I do have a student who for many reasons can't match output to input in any way. I try to find the balance. We must slog through some sort of math and make it as painless as possible. But we are really enjoying watching Teaching Company and Coursera lectures. I never had access to those types of materials as a student and didn't have the background to seek them out in college.

 

I would definitely encourage a child of any skill level to think about things at a deeper level than the average mass education curricula provides. And I thrill at seeing how deep each of my own children can go in their individual areas of interest and expertise. But, I do sometimes have to remind myself that it can't all be fun. And it really was a disservice to me that I was able to avoid any type of lesson that was unpleasant.

 

So, for the OP- there could be so very many issues going on as you've said. Talk to the student, consider evaluations, take some time to try different approaches and styles and hopefully you will find a path that works best for you and your student.

[jhschool]

Try the Art of Problem Solving online school?

 

That worked great for my kid.

 

He was being bored of Math in 6th, 7th, and 8th

grades, and although I was

pleased with his curriculum, he was losing his spark.

 

We switched to the AoPS school and he has fallen

in love with Math ever since! No more boredom!

 

They have a Beast Academy for little kids like yours.

 

-------

 

Something else that I would do is Center for Talented Youth.

They have all sorts of online classes there. They look really

cool. If we had more budget, I would totally do them.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I went to a school that took only children with IQs 140 and above. Everyone used standard math curriculum, except faster. That's what they had back in the early nineties (in the mists of time). It was called Math Quest. I still have a copy of the first and third grade books. Nothing special.

 

I know, off hand, quite a number of people with IQs in the 140 or above range. None of them required entirely different elementary school curricula in order to reach their Very Special Giftedness.

 

A gifted kid can do worksheets. A gifted kid can do Kumon. A gifted kid might not be massively better at those things than a standard kid, but they can produce standard output.

 

 

I think you might be forgetting one factor, here, and that is the desire of most young children to be people pleasers. I had a grand time in elementary school with very few accommodations for giftedness, but that's only because I really liked gold stars and my school administered them freely. I didn't know why anybody was impressed by what I did. I didn't know that what I did so effortlessly and glibly was sometimes hard for some children and considered to be "learning." But I liked the prizes and being teacher's pet, so I complied.

 

This was in the late 70's and early 80's in a non-progressive, fact-based type of school, so "knowing all the answers" was considered to be a good thing.

 

When puberty hit, I stopped caring. Practically overnight, I came to despise the whole system, and thus began my career as an educational anarchist. I graduated early with credits to spare, and cared not a whit for education until I started reading John Holt in preparation for homeschooling my own children.

 

If my school were as touchy-feely and non-analytical as schools of today, and if the gold stars and pats on the head were not my daily food, I would not have performed at school the way a seal performs at the zoo. If my only applause for trifles came from my Mom (who wouldn't have done that because it would have been stupid, and I would have been embarrassed if my own mother played a game of being impressed with me) I wouldn't have performed at home, either.

 

What motivates a child to pretend to care about schoolwork at home, with only Mom to be affected in any way by whether he cares or not?

 

Especially at home, the child must love to learn the way he gets to learn, on some level. He must have some buy-in into how he spends his school hours, because he has no external reward. Not even the unwholesome rewards of flattery and gold stars. No, his only reward is that he loves to learn this stuff....

 

so if he's not loving to learn at home, something at home has got to change. The survival tactics of gifted children at school are not identical to the tools of success of a child who learns at home with Mom.

[NASDAQ]

What motivates a child to pretend to care about schoolwork at home, with only Mom to be affected in any way by whether he cares or not?

 

Especially at home, the child must love to learn the way he gets to learn, on some level. He must have some buy-in into how he spends his school hours, because he has no external reward. Not even the unwholesome rewards of flattery and gold stars. No, his only reward is that he loves to learn this stuff....

 

so if he's not loving to learn at home, something at home has got to change. The survival tactics of gifted children at school are not identical to the tools of success of a child who learns at home with Mom.

 

Well, most children want to please mum as well. Some children need more. That's why people were suggesting cookies.

 

I don't see why gold stars are unwholesome. We pay people to work; They don't go to the office for the sheer joy of it.

[Corraleno]

Especially at home, the child must love to learn the way he gets to learn, on some level. He must have some buy-in into how he spends his school hours, because he has no external reward. Not even the unwholesome rewards of flattery and gold stars. No, his only reward is that he loves to learn this stuff....

 

so if he's not loving to learn at home, something at home has got to change. The survival tactics of gifted children at school are not identical to the tools of success of a child who learns at home with Mom.

 

:iagree: I love all of what you wrote, especially the above.

 

Whether or not DS could "survive" the kind of education I had, I can't imagine settling for that. It's actually much easier for me, not to mention far more enjoyable and effective for DS, to give him the kind of education that really inspires and motivates him, rather than battling him every day to force him to settle for an education that makes him hate learning. Why on earth would I want to put more effort into a less effective education — especially if it means ruining our relationship in the process? That doesn't just make sense to me, on any level.

 

Jackie

[Alte Veste Academy]

What motivates a child to pretend to care about schoolwork at home, with only Mom to be affected in any way by whether he cares or not?

 

...

 

so if he's not loving to learn at home, something at home has got to change. The survival tactics of gifted children at school are not identical to the tools of success of a child who learns at home with Mom.

 

I think this is a spectacular point. I was also a good little seal in school, all the way through (mostly because school was an oasis of ease for me). But I couldn't have cared less about learning.

[Corraleno]

Well, most children want to please mum as well. Some children need more. That's why people were suggesting cookies.

 

 

"Hey sweetie, I'm sorry you're bored out of your mind, hate school with a passion, and are starting to believe that life is hardly worth living. Here, a cookie will fix that."

 

<head desk>

 

I'm sorry, but if a child is craving depth and challenge and meaningful work, giving them a freaking cookie along with their deadly boring worksheet is just not gonna fill that need.

 

Jackie

[Alte Veste Academy]

Well, most children want to please mum as well. Some children need more. That's why people were suggesting cookies.

 

I don't see why gold stars are unwholesome. We pay people to work; They don't go to the office for the sheer joy of it.

 

I do think most young kids want to please their mom. But as they get older and more bored, as they lose their curiosity and intrinsic motivation, they care less and less.

 

People work for pay, yes. They work. For pay. And if their jobs stopped paying, how many people would keep working? So, when the carrots (or gold stars) are taken away, do we want our kids to quit learning? The only people I know who would continue to work without pay are those who love their jobs and are intrinsically motivated. This is the whole point.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I will say that I know kids need to learn to do mundane, unpleasant things because sometimes, "that's life." To that end, my kids have chores. They clean bathrooms, fold laundry, scoop the dog poo and kitty litter, dust, vacuum, water plants... :tongue_smilie:

 

I will also say that once a kid gets hooked on learning, they will surprise you with what mundane things they are willing to do because they now buy into the process.

[PachiSusan]

I will also say that once a kid gets hooked on learning, they will surprise you with what mundane things they are willing to do because they now buy into the process.

 

I want to get there so badly! LOL

[Lang Syne Boardie]

They don't need cookies!

 

They need to understand their world, just as all children do.

 

The child at the other end of the spectrum receives special help to learn to interpret stimuli. Right? Isn't that what special education for learning disabilities is all about? Input doesn't bring about the expected or desired output, so the adults begin jumping through hoops to figure out why.

 

The "bright" child connects the dots on his own, mostly, as long as there's plenty of material for his five senses to work with and some down time for his mind to process what he sees. Traditional education methods work great for him. He can master them, connect the dots...it's all predictable. The grammar of each subject is easily decoded, the response of the teacher ditto...he has his bored moments but his success or failure is largely in his own hands and predicated on his attitude. Again, that's in a school that makes sense.

 

The "gifted" child did what the bright child spent the whole morning on, within five minutes of walking into the room, but then what is he supposed to do all day? He tries to make sense of what's between his two ears, and connect the dots in his world, just as all children are trying to do in order to grow up. There might be some issues with some incoming stimuli, but does he get the same adult concern for that as the child who obviously needs help in all areas and not just one or two "invisible" areas? No, if he's been labeled "gifted" it's called a behavior problem if he can't stand the fluorescent lights or the too-much-noise of a disorganized classroom. And what if what's between his two ears has long since moved beyond what's on the page in front of him or what the teacher is talking about? What if he's mentally redesigning the ceiling or growing very concerned about the salt content of the classroom gerbil's food? What if he's going over the pastor's sermon from last Sunday and applying it to what he read in his book about Abraham Lincoln and he's got some questions but doesn't know who to ask? What if his science lesson was fairly benign but when he combined the principles with what he remembered from last night's NOVA episode and now he's scared to death of the end of the world? Again, who to ask, and how? What if his legs are twitching because if he could just take a good long run and climb a tree he could probably work out that ceiling design and then come in and draw a picture to show...whom?

 

Nobody knows. Nobody cares. They only see that he refuses to do his worksheet which is about something that he mastered five years ago. He's a difficult student. He doesn't care. He has a poor attitude. He's so smart but he's lazy. What a bad example for the other children, if only he would apply himself!!!

 

The input doesn't bring about the desired or expected output. But the adults are not jumping through hoops to figure out why. At this end of the spectrum, the child is to blame.

 

Give him a cookie. Give her more gold stars. Convince them to reform, conform, perform. Maybe you can grow a yes man or a sycophant. Maybe you can grow a cynical manipulator. But his soul is not your concern. All you know is that if you can just find his currency he will ace those standardized tests and confirm your worth as a teacher.

 

Everything I've mentioned in this post has been observed in one of my own children, who did have the freedom to tell me that they needed to...

 

talk about social justice and Abraham Lincoln instead of focusing on today's social studies lesson

compare kinds of gerbil food next time we're at the store

learn more about global warming and how the world will end

climb the tree, take a run, and draw me a picture of what their mind produced

 

...move on from this stupid math because I know it, Mama....

 

and be heard.

[Corraleno]

People work for pay, yes. They work. For pay. And if their jobs stopped paying, how many people would keep working? So, when the carrots (or gold stars) are taken away, do we want our kids to quit learning? The only people I know who would continue to work without pay are those who love their jobs and are intrinsically motivated. This is the whole point.

 

:iagree:

 

I will say that I know kids need to learn to do mundane, unpleasant things because sometimes, "that's life." To that end, my kids have chores. They clean bathrooms, fold laundry, scoop the dog poo and kitty litter, dust, vacuum, water plants... :tongue_smilie:

 

I will also say that once a kid gets hooked on learning, they will surprise you with what mundane things they are willing to do because they now buy into the process.

 

Yes, and because they feel like they are part of a team when it comes to education, not just an employee being told to "just suck it up and do it," there is much less resistance in other areas as well. I think that when schoolwork becomes a constant battle, kids can just get to the point where they automatically complain and resist any requests/orders.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Nobody knows. Nobody cares. They only see that he refuses to do his worksheet which is about something that he mastered five years ago. He's a difficult student. He doesn't care. He has a poor attitude. He's so smart but he's lazy. What a bad example for the other children, if only he would apply himself!!!

 

The input doesn't bring about the desired or expected output. But the adults are not jumping through hoops to figure out why. At this end of the spectrum, the child is to blame.

 

Give him a cookie. Give her more gold stars. Convince them to reform, conform, perform. Maybe you can grow a yes man or a sycophant. Maybe you can grow a cynical manipulator. But his soul is not your concern. All you know is that if you can just find his currency he will ace those standardized tests and confirm your worth as a teacher.

 

Everything I've mentioned in this post has been observed in one of my own children, who did have the freedom to tell me that they needed to...

 

talk about social justice and Abraham Lincoln instead of focusing on today's social studies lesson

compare kinds of gerbil food next time we're at the store

learn more about global warming and how the world will end

climb the tree, take a run, and draw me a picture of what their mind produced

 

...move on from this stupid math because I know it, Mama....

 

and be heard.

 

Wow, this gave me chills. A "refrigerator post" for sure. :hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

 

Jackie

[quark]

Just quoting the phrases that are relevant to my reply, please excuse me for cutting up your post like this OP!

 

This child is very capable but refuses to do work. I finally took child for testing and the results were that this child tested into the "gifted" program. Scored exceptionally well in all areas.

 

That said, this child does not produce the outcome they are capable of at home. In fact, this child produces next to nothing.

 

I know this child is doing it on purpose.

 

I know this is a discipline issue.

 

Child could care less.

 

Every parent and teacher that comes in contact with child tells me what a delight this child is. At home, I get the stubborn mule side. T

 

I can see this child throwing their life away because they are too stubborn to take direction. This child is so smart but seems to apply themselves towards evil rather than good.

 

 

Seen separately in disjointed sentences, the bolded obviously don't describe the accurate picture in your home but they do highlight one thing to me...you need to create a bond with this child, OP. I can see how much you care and how much it pains you and I feel your pain. Gifted or not, highly gifted or not, profoundly gifted or not, this child needs you to be on his/ her team. Maybe you are already close and I'm wrong about this...but your sentences, they just seem as if both of you are in anguish...your child is showing it in a different way maybe?

 

I wouldn't even think about curriculum or structure or the lack of it or what gifted or non-gifted or effort-driven strategy to take for now. I would spend time talking about other things, I would spend time laughing together, reading aloud, doing silly things together. If TV is an option, watch The Andy Griffith Show or some show where it's obvious that the parent really cares for the child but still disciplines the child and is not beyond admitting it when the parent is wrong. Andy does this a lot with Opie. I'm not saying this because I think you are making a mistake. I'm saying this so that it might be a way for the child to understand that you too are such a parent who is willing to have an open channel of communication with your kiddo.

 

Have you read Hold On To Your Kids? When I suspected that my son was gifted, I read two books: Miraca Gross's Exceptionally Gifted Children to understand from the case studies how other kids like him think and learn, and Hold On To Your Kids to remind me what can happen when I lose sight of the bond I want us to share.

 

As others have said, your child is 9 and the academics although important may not really be what you need to address at the moment.

 

What I feel really matters here is re-establishing some sort of close communication. Let the school books wait.

[Giraffe]

 

 

Wow, this gave me chills. A "refrigerator post" for sure. :hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

 

Jackie

 

No kidding. What I wanted to say as a child , teenager, and adult and couldn't find the words.

 

And as far as work as an adult, I had one job where I finished my tasks and FELL ASLEEP in the afternoons because I couldn't get enough to do to keep me occupied. Yeah, I left that job before I went insane.

[TraceyS/FL]

Having a higher IQ doesn't mean you should just do the same work, only faster and with fewer errors. A child with an IQ of 140 is as radically different from an average (100 IQ) child as is a child with an IQ of 60. A child with an IQ of 160 is as different as one with an IQ of 40. I think a lot of people don't really get that. It's not just a matter of "more" or "less" of the same kinds of intelligence; they actually think in very different ways.

 

If a child with an IQ of 40 or 50 or 60 is using curriculum designed for an average child at that age or grade level, and it's obviously not working, changing the brand of curriculum, but not the level or approach, is not going to solve the problem. The same is true of gifted kids. Even just buying "normal" curriculum a grade or two higher may not work, because the content may still be too low while the output requirements may be too high. Gifted kids tend to think much more abstractly, they see patterns and connections that other kids their age don't, and they crave depth and understanding in an almost physical way. A gifted kid who really really wants to know the answer to something is like a terrier with a bone — they will. not. let. it. go. until they get an answer. And IME one of the things they tend to crave most is someone to discuss their ideas with.

I have a child with an IQ of 72, she has massive processing issues (input and output), along with a host of other issues that have her labeled, "Cognitive Disorder - NOS". She is 13 (14 in June), and functions at about a 3-4th grade level at this point.

 

The thing is, you can see it in her that there is more - she is that inquisitive child that doesn't let things drop. Right now they are things that are youngish - but just yesterday when I was moving a bookshelf with a hand truck, she asked why/how, and I threw out the word fulcrum. She was a sponge (and I'm excited about doing ES physics with her once all my blasted books arrive!!) with it.

 

So even though she might never ever be able to output a dissertation - I can see the gifted-ness in there. It is there, and I'm going to enjoy feeding it, on her level, the next couple of years.

 

My oldest is a victim of her parents doing "school at home" and not feeding it, I've learned a lot in the last 9 years at this homeschooling thing....

[MomatHWTK]

 

I'm sorry, but if a child is craving depth and challenge and meaningful work, giving them a freaking cookie along with their deadly boring worksheet is just not gonna fill that need.

 

Jackie

 

Well of course not, you need cupcakes for that!

[Momof3littles]

http://nymag.com/new...288381481237582

 

I just read this article a couple of days ago about gifted children who do poorly or who don't want to try. Not sayin' this is you necessarily! Just something to consider.

 

I've read Dweck's book Mindset, and it has given me some great ideas for talking with my perfectionist, likely gifted, son. I read it to help with some issues I was having with him, and learned a whole lot about myself and my own perceptions in the process :huh: Quite eye-opening for me, really.

[Soror]

I think you might be forgetting one factor, here, and that is the desire of most young children to be people pleasers. I had a grand time in elementary school with very few accommodations for giftedness, but that's only because I really liked gold stars and my school administered them freely. I didn't know why anybody was impressed by what I did. I didn't know that what I did so effortlessly and glibly was sometimes hard for some children and considered to be "learning." But I liked the prizes and being teacher's pet, so I complied.

 

 

I did well in school because I was/am a people pleaser, not because I found the work engaging, although there were a few highlights. However, that was a big draw to me for homeschooling- we don't have to learn that way! Geez, I thought that was the case for everyone! I am thrilled that there are so many more options out there, so much to help me as a mom facilitate higher learning that I didn't receive myself. If I wanted my child to receive an education *just as good* as ps then that is where they would be.

[songsparrow]

Letting the child pick FLL3 instead of Shurley, or fill in flip-book worksheets instead of regular worksheets, is not different, it's just more of the same. Of course that's not going to work. . . .

 

Gifted kids tend to think much more abstractly, they see patterns and connections that other kids their age don't, and they crave depth and understanding in an almost physical way. . . . And IME one of the things they tend to crave most is someone to discuss their ideas with.

 

Letting the child "choose" to study volcanoes, but then just substituting a flipbook for a workbook, is really no different than just making them slog through a standard curriculum — it's still output-focused busy work, instead of deep, engaging, challenging input. Reading lots of books, watching documentaries and youtube videos, and discussing them, is much more likely to be successful. Gifted kids can usually handle input at a much much higher level (often adult level or above) compared to their output. The "standard school model," with oversimplified content, lots of repetition, and fairly mindless output, is the antithesis of what gifted kids need to thrive. . . .

 

Of course, sometimes kids just don't wanna do something (like read a book or watch a documentary) that the parent knows they will love if they just try it. And in that case, of course it makes sense to push. But that's not what's going on with the OP's child. This sounds like a kid who is desperately bored and turned off to school, and has simply shut down. That requires a really radically different approach — not just letting her choose a different grammar curriculum.

 

 

:iagree: , especially with the part that I put in bold. This is what I took from the original post. I really hope that the OP is getting some helpful ideas for different avenues to try in teaching her child. I would strongly encourage much higher input, with much less output (other than deep discussions). It may even help to take a break from formal school requirements, or deschool, for a bit, and just explore whatever is of interest to the child.

 

 

I don't see why gold stars are unwholesome. We pay people to work; They don't go to the office for the sheer joy of it.

 

 

Actually, some people do go to work for the sheer joy of it, as well as the pay. In the documentary Between the Folds, there is a wonderful section about Eric Demain. Clearly a genius, he was homeschooled by his father. He is now a professor at MIT and works in the emerging field of origami mathematics. In his interview he says something to the effect of "If this wasn't fun, why would I do it?" There are also lots of people in the world who work very hard pursuing their passions while being paid very little or nothing at all to do so.

 

This is clearly the ideal, and while I am happy for Dr. Demain that he is able to live it, I know that all of our kids will not be lucky enough to be able to work for the sheer joy of the work they do; there will be other, practical considerations as well. But what it illustrates is that when you find the right fit, it is possible to do incredibly difficult, complex, challenging work and absolutely thrive off of it. There are plenty of people who would not describe the work that Dr. Demain does as "fun." It is fun for him because it challenges and engages him.

 

That is my goal as teacher - to challenge and engage. My children are not genius level; they are just bright kids. But I have seen them when they are slogging through worksheets for material that is too easy for them; I have seen their spark for learning slowly going out. And I have seen them when they are engaged and challenged and so excited about what they are learning that they can barely talk fast enough to get out all of their ideas and thoughts.

 

I hope that the OP can find a path that will lead to the same change in her child.

[ktgrok]

"Hey sweetie, I'm sorry you're bored out of your mind, hate school with a passion, and are starting to believe that life is hardly worth living. Here, a cookie will fix that."

 

<head desk>

 

I'm sorry, but if a child is craving depth and challenge and meaningful work, giving them a freaking cookie along with their deadly boring worksheet is just not gonna fill that need.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

I have to say, I find it a bit absurd that you are assuming that any of us that suggested that sometimes a kid just has to learn to do the work, are giving said child pages on pages of worksheets or what not. Or using boring materials. I know for my son we did all grammar orally, and used various things from madlibs to making up our own sentences to games to yes, worksheets. We used a conceptual program for math (Math Mammoth) and I never assigned even half the problems. I did one or two for each type of problem. If he could get them right there was no reason to do a bunch more. I get that. Like I said, I WAS a gifted kid. ALL my friends were gifted kids. My husband was a gifted kid. I get that page after page of the same stupid type of problem will drive you nuts. But on the other hand, being gifted doesn't mean that you should do ANY math problems, just cause you'd rather be doing somethign else. It is totally reasonable, and not relationship killing, to expect them to do, say, 12 problems, if they are at a level that challenges but doesn't frustrate.

 

Yes, normal school will kill a love of learning in gifted kids more often than not. I'm technically a genius. I hated school in many ways. I went to college a year early, as it was do that or start skipping school. So I get it. That's why I make my homeschool as interesting as possible...using documentaries, fun movies, living books, websites, hands on materials, etc...but at the end of the day, playing mindcraft ALL DAY (or darts or airsoft) is not enough of an education. And so he has to learn to sit and focus, even when his ADHD/SPD/Aspergers mind is telling him to go juggle shining objects while going down a ramp on a skateboard. So if some extra snacks or being sent to his room will accomplish that, that is what I will do.

 

And now that he has realized he CAN focus, that he CAN put the time in, he does so fairly cheefully. But I had to help him prove to himself he could do that, after teaching him how to do that. So my advice was geared for a kid that wanted to do the work, but was having attention deficit issues and needed help learning to focus on the work at hand. Not for a kid that was being given the wrong work.

[Soror]

I've read Dweck's book Mindset, and it has given me some great ideas for talking with my perfectionist, likely gifted, son. I read it to help with some issues I was having with him, and learned a whole lot about myself and my own perceptions in the process :huh: Quite eye-opening for me, really.

 

Thanks for the book rec and thank TerriMI for the article link. That was very illuminating. As I said before I did well because I wanted to please, however that is something that I've tried hard to re-mediate as an adult. I've always had it in my mind that I didn't want to raise my kids to be praise junkies like I was/am. I could relate to so much in the article. I am a perfectionist, I find it hard to try new things because of my fear of failure.

 

I'll stop there before I ramble too much but thanks again!

[regentrude]

Well, most children want to please mum as well. Some children need more. That's why people were suggesting cookies.

I don't see why gold stars are unwholesome. We pay people to work; They don't go to the office for the sheer joy of it.

 

Actually, many people do. I am surrounded by people who love their work and who do not just show up because they are being paid. They work because they are passionate about their work. I am looking forward to my job almost every single day!

I want exactly this for my children: to find joy in their work. And I am glad they have role models in their lives that do just that - not just us parents and our colleagues (after all, most scientists work because of passion, not money), but also the riding instructor, the choir director....

Come to think of, the majority of my friends loves their work.

 

So yes, the gold stars are damaging, because they condition the child to work for external rewards only.

I'd much rather my child finds something to work on she is passionate about and develops intrinsic motivation - even if had other things planned for that day.

[TraceyS/FL]

http://nymag.com/new...288381481237582

 

I just read this article a couple of days ago about gifted children who do poorly or who don't want to try. Not sayin' this is you necessarily! Just something to consider.

This was a great read!

 

I must have known this deep down because I actually do do this in practice a lot of the time. I hadn't thought about it - but when I reflected on my interactions with my kids the last couple of days I realize that I do it.

 

I shall be bookmarking it and revisiting it for a reminder. Thanks Terri!

[sbbulliv]

Dear Jane, I am sending you and your child all my best wishes. I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if anyone said this, but I wanted to suggest either going back to the original psychologist or getting a second opinion about attentional issues. It doesn't seem like "typical gifted" behavior (if there is such a thing) to not be able to finish a fiction book of choice in three weeks. I was also wondering about the favorite toy you mentioned, if there might be an "addiction" to electronics going on. If there might be, I would take it off the table for a long time and not use it as currency.

[Guest Mommyleaf]

 

 

The idea that "gifted" just means "extra smart" and so school work should be super easy for them — and that refusing to work is therefore nothing but laziness — is just. not. true.

 

"Gifted" is not necessarily the 3rd grader doing 4th grade math and getting 90% every day. The really gifted kid may be the one in the back of the room, bored out of his mind, doodling fractals in his notebook. He may be a 3rd grader who can't memorize his times tables and zones out on addition problems, but can visualize a line going to infinity in both directions, and he wants to know if you divide it in "half" does each one equal half of infinity or does "halving" infinity actually double it? And if you have a sphere, with an infinite number of lines that all radiate out to infinity, is that "more infinite" than just one line? Can you use infinity in equations, or is it just an idea? Because zero is an idea but you can still use it in equations, right? And then he starts asking about multiverses and string theory. Telling that kid (yep, that's my son) to stop being lazy and just sit there and do the PS math worksheets is not the best approach.

 

Here are some examples of things that have and haven't worked with my son:

 

Grammar

3rd-5th grades: Grammar worksheets that introduce one concept at a time, with lots of repetition. He wanted to poke his eyes out. Lots of foot dragging, daydreaming, and zero retention.

6th grade: Intensive online class that covered all of English grammar in 4 weeks, with lots of graphics and funny examples. Not only did he get straight As, it sparked an intensive, ongoing passion for linguistics.

Now: He reads linguistics textbooks for fun and follows me around the house telling me about obscure cases and tenses in endangered Altaic languages.

 

(etc)

 

Jackie

 

I wish I'd been Jackie's kid. I was a classic "bored" underachiever. I might have needed more help breaking tasks down (I still get overwhelmed) & needed someone to help me learn how to pursue varied interests but I would have thrived with the above education. That struggling with multiplication tables but pondering number lines....bingo!

 

Such an inspiring thread. Thank you for bringing this up!!! I know that you are struggling, but we are all learning from this discussion.

 

Prayers for you & your child!

 

Jen

[weederberries]

Wow! I just read Strong Willed or Dreamer, as recommended by a previous poster.

 

Does this book ever explain me, my siblings, my mom, and ALL 3 of my children! What an enlightening book! It also smacks of the issues the OP is having.

I've gotta make some changes in the way I interact with my kids, but at least I'm not guessing at strategy now.

 

Thanks!

[happypamama]

OP, I read most of the thread (before my own attention deficit issues kicked in, LOL), and I wanted to say that I sympathize with you. I think with very bright (and even gifted) children, they do sometimes have to be taught to work, to persevere through work that is not so interesting, to keep going when it's a bit dull or difficult. I also think that around eight or so, there's a shift -- acquiring basic skills has been really easy for them up to that point, but now that work requires a bit of thought and effort, it's hard. Some kids need to be dragged through that more than others.

 

I think a couple of years will make a huge difference. Can you do oral narrations and not much writing at all for a while? It seems that my DD's brain was much faster than her fingers, and she *hated* to write for a long time, especially around that age. We did most things orally, very limited writing. We have samples from picture study from 8-9 where she's written maybe two or three words; this year, at 11, she writes and writes and fills the page and runs out of time before she's run out of ideas. A few years of maturity really made a difference.

 

Also, you might consider a different math program. I use Singapore with my son, and so far it's a really good fit for him; he intuitively "gets" the Singapore way of doing things. I think my daughter would hate it, though (DS1 loves Miquon also; DD didn't). Singapore requires mental organization that is not DD's strong suit. We use Saxon for her. It's less cute and fun, but that's actually a plus for her (she doesn't like cutesy). The Saxon blend of different problems is nice for her -- in any given set, there are several easy problems (which give her confidence -- "I've mastered this", "yesterday, I needed Mom's help with this type of problem, and today, I don't", etc. -- and which teach her to persevere even when life isn't always Super Exciting) and some more challenging ones. But the mix keeps it from being boring. So you might consider trying a different math program.

 

The other thing that has helped my DD is starting Latin. She asked to start it, and she loves it. She memorizes easily, so it's fun for her -- enough fun that it helps her when there is a tough spot. It's also, honestly, one thing that she and I do entirely together; she doesn't have to read anything separately, or work problems after we discuss them, or anything like that. We share a love and ease of learning languages, so it's a bonding thing for us too (whereas DS1 and I bond over our love for math tricks). So far, she does it all orally (I occasionally give her a written test to stick in her portfolio), and that takes pressure off of her. Latin has also helped her learn organization; it's logical, and she needs to remember the same steps each time. Because she enjoys Latin in general, learning to follow the steps is fun for her in a way that learning them in math is not. The gentle perseverance when there's a trickier spot is good for her too, because it's teaching her to work; she is able to be proud of her progress, to own it. So you might look into foreign language lessons for your child.

[Greenmama2]

I'm having a lot of issues with my 3rd grader (who will be 9 before going into 4th in the fall).

 

This child is very capable but refuses to do work. I finally took child for testing and the results were that this child tested into the "gifted" program. Scored exceptionally well in all areas. The psychologist recommended we put the child in school in a gifted program for the peer interaction with other children but admitted that I was doing a good job at home of meeting her educational needs and that she would be quite bored in regular school, outside of the gifted classes.

 

That said, this child does not produce the outcome they are capable of at home. In fact, this child produces next to nothing. Said child is still 3/4 of the way through SM 3A!! Each math PAGE takes about 90 minutes even if I am sitting right beside. The only time I have been able to get this child to work is with the threat of heavy punishment. One day, child took 25 minutes to do one long division question. I got so mad I threatened to take away favorite toy forever if child didn't complete the rest of the page in 10 minutes. I totally over reacted and it was rather unreasonable of me but I followed through. Lo and behold this child completed 12 long division questions with 4 seconds to spare to the 10 minute mark.

 

It is like this for everything. I can talk to child about what subject to study. I let child choose what science topic (we are doing earth science). Child chose volcanoes. I found a fun lapbook page to fill out (child said yes, I want to do that). An hour later child had written one sentence. I was doing experiments with older child and younger child and while I looked at this one, I assumed work was getting done (it was a flip book with multiple pages and it was my mistake to not make sure child was not on same page each time). But at the same time, at 8, I know this child is doing it on purpose.

 

Usually our day goes such that I do work with this child and then child works independently while I help/teach the others. For example, we will do WWE3, do the questions, child will tell me narration & I tell child to write it down (child is more than capable of doing this) and I move on to help my first grader with WWE1. I read story to first grader, we do questions, work on that work, etc. I come back to third grade child to discover that child has written 2 words of the narration. Now, child knows narration as child has orally told it to me not once, but twice. Yet, putting the pencil to paper, child will not do.

 

Any IEW assignment? Child will not do. Takes 3 weeks to do one assignment. It is like this for everything.

 

Child's reading program? One lesson should take about 1/2 hour. Child gets distracted and will take 1/2 to read the passage, but not even get to the workbook in that time. This is independent work and by the time the 1/2 hour is up I have to move on to a subject that I need to teach child so reading doesn't get done. We do our grammar lesson, child does independent work. Same thing. Child sits and sits and sits. Even if I watch. Will do oral work but anything pen to paper? Drags it out.

 

I know this is a discipline issue. What I don't know is how to fix this. Rewards do not work for this child like they do with my others. Child could care less. Only thing that works is punishment and that gets old. To have to threaten your child with no class or playdate or give away favorite toy that you (mom) spent over $100 on is tedious and only goes so far.

 

I've talked to the psychologist. Child does not show signs of depression or other issues. Every parent and teacher that comes in contact with child tells me what a delight this child is. At home, I get the stubborn mule side. This child takes stubborn to a whole new level. This child could also be the poster child for ADHD and distractability.

 

Several times I have caught child writing other things other than what was assigned to child. :glare: I have not been making child do too much work in the evenings as school already takes from 9 to about 4:30 and that is a long enough day of sitting for an 8yo. Yes, we do breaks and I allow running around outside. I don't know if this has helped or hindered. When child decides not to work, child does not work. Child also never asks questions or asks for help. Will sit for 1/2 hour rather than ask a question about what needs to be done. Again, this has become a learned delay tactic to getting any actual work done.

 

All this to say, child has done the equivalent of work to what I would expect a child to have completed by the end of October. I am leaning heavily towards holding child back and repeating third grade next year. This child didn't do any of the work this year and I don't think should be moving on. Thing is, child is very capable. I have posted samples of what my 8yo writes and people have said child writes well for their age. Child does very well on work completed but simply does not work. I give child options as to what to study and what sort of output to produce. Sometimes I allow child to do a model instead of a piece of writing. Child will even draw that work out and refuse to do it.

 

I don't know how to turn this child around. It pains me deeply. I can see this child throwing their life away because they are too stubborn to take direction. This child is so smart but seems to apply themselves towards evil rather than good.

 

I'm probably going to get flamed like mad for this. I don't know what to do. The child development psychologist had very minimal suggestions for me. They did say that the work I was giving child was both appropriate and engaging for where this child is. They didn't have any experience with homeschoolers but she was impressed with how things are and said several times I was doing a good job. All she could suggest was to put this child in a gifted program but reiterated several times there would be issues. That gifted program or not, there will be the regular school issues and that this child was not necessarily a good candidate for that (high distraction levels, low work ethic, easily influenced).

 

I'm at a total loss.

I think you have my daughter. I'm sorry I can't help - I'm at a loss too.

[Mommyfaithe]

 

 

I think this is a spectacular point. I was also a good little seal in school, all the way through (mostly because school was an oasis of ease for me). But I couldn't have cared less about learning.

 

I cared about learning, but that happened at the library. School was just a safe place where I could be without fear. School was peaceful, the work was easy and I received praise...

The library fed my hunger to learn. The librarian was my best friend.

[Mommyfaithe]

<<<<<I think a couple of years will make a huge difference.  Can you do oral narrations and not much writing at all for a while?  It seems that my DD's brain was much faster than her fingers, and she *hated* to write for a long time, especially around that age.  We did most things orally, very limited writing.  We have samples from picture study from 8-9 where she's written maybe two or three words; this year, at 11, she writes and writes and fills the page and runs out of time before she's run out of ideas.  A few years of maturity really made a difference.>>>>>>>>>

 

 

Just a little warning. If you switch to mostly oral work PLEASE continue to work on handwriting AND typing as a different subject. My ds is gifted and was reading ...seriously reading by 3 1/2. He could not write his name until he was 6. He had very poor small motor skills which we still work on even at 18. I think because we ended up doing most of his work orally, his ability to communicate in writing by high school was hampered. We are STILL working on translating his deep thoughts and connections into a written form. This delay in writing did NOT serve him well.

 

Now, his younger brother is very similar. Writing makes this boy crumble into a ball and fall into tantrums. So, handwriting has become a separate a nd distinct subject, something I was deadest against with my older kids....silly me. Just a caveat. I know oral work is a way to cover deeper issues....but boning up on handwriting and grammar skills should not suffer in the process. I am finding 15 -20 minutes a day is all it takes...and consistency is the key to avoid the screaming meme!!!

[happypamama]

Just a little warning. If you switch to mostly oral work PLEASE continue to work on handwriting AND typing as a different subject. My ds is gifted and was reading ...seriously reading by 3 1/2. He could not write his name until he was 6. He had very poor small motor skills which we still work on even at 18. I think because we ended up doing most of his work orally, his ability to communicate in writing by high school was hampered. We are STILL working on translating his deep thoughts and connections into a written form. This delay in writing did NOT serve him well.

 

 

 

 

Interesting, and a good point. In our case, we did continue to do handwriting/copywork as a specific subject, and we also allowed typing. We just cut out any extraneous writing -- if she didn't need to write math, Latin, or narrations, she didn't. And we gradually increased what needed to be written. In her case, I do think the delay in writing was a good thing, but I can see how a parent might need to be careful about that.

[In The Great White North]

Just a little warning. If you switch to mostly oral work PLEASE continue to work on handwriting AND typing as a different subject. My ds is gifted and was reading ...seriously reading by 3 1/2. He could not write his name until he was 6. He had very poor small motor skills which we still work on even at 18. I think because we ended up doing most of his work orally, his ability to communicate in writing by high school was hampered. We are STILL working on translating his deep thoughts and connections into a written form. This delay in writing did NOT serve him well.

 

Just a couple of thoughts. . .

 

There are more interesting ways to work on fine motor skills if writing is really onerous: knitting, crochet, beading, building models, calligraphy, piano, etc. They can all be used to strengthen fine motor skills in an unsuspecting 9 year old, or even a teenager who sees it as a hobby or side business.

 

At 18, if it's still a problem, he might want to look into voice to print software for his computer.

[wapiti]

PSA re: handwriting difficulties - at certain levels, this can be a twice-exceptionality, dysgraphia, for which there may be accommodations on the SATs/ACTs. Getting accommodations involves a paper trail over the years and testing with an ed psych or neuropsych. Just something to keep in the back of one's mind as the kids get to late elementary/middle school and are still significantly hampered by the handwriting...

 

 

Just a little warning. If you switch to mostly oral work PLEASE continue to work on handwriting AND typing as a different subject.

 

:iagree: I think it's very wise to separate out remediation on these weak areas from the other subjects until they aren't frustrating the student so much, but yes, they still need work.

 

While our ed psych recommends emphasizing typing, and that is one of our goals, writing certainly has an important place as well. I'm a cursive believer; my oldest is now in middle school and uses a cursive/print blend, which is probably fastest/easiest for her. So far she's keeping up quite well and I'm having a little bit of a hard time imagining her brothers - who have Coding subtest scores in the single-digit percentiles - doing that much handwriting just two years from now.

 

I think it's important to note that, in the last few years, a lot of middle and high schools are moving closer to allowing technology for anyone, not just those that have accommodations. Rumor has it that dd will be using an ipad at her middle school next year just to get around some printing issues the school has been having (I'm not sure how that helps their technical issues, and I worry about the keyboard situation with the ipad as I hate typing on my ipad, but the ipad would be a whole lot lighter and sturdier to carry around than a laptop).

[Giraffe]

I think we scared Plain Jane away. She's not returned....

[quark]

Try a living math approach perhaps? If the reading lists at the link are too easy for this child, my siggy has a link with some of the alternative math books we've used. Math can be learned through play or by building or cooking and so on. You mention that she only likes to play. What does she like to play? Any way to integrate math there without calling it "math" or "school" etc.?

[MomatHWTK]

Kandbp, my 2e will watch college level lectures with me but cannot stand doing math. I have to side right next to him and let him talk through each problem with me. I'm going to give some of the online videos a try this coming year. I think I'm just going to have to sit through math with him every day- my least favorite subject.

[songsparrow]

kandbp - re math struggles, a couple ideas for you to consider:

 

1. You said that puzzles worked best for your daughter. Perhaps take a look at Descartes Cove. It's a video game designed for middle- to early high-school students. The 6 CDs of the game cover:

• Measurement: The Rafting Journey
  
• Number & Operations: The Sailing Ship
  
• Data Analysis & Probability: The Mining Cave Expedition
  
• Algebra: The Underground River Adventure
  
• Geometry: The Secret Castle
  
• Reasoning & Proof: The Volcano Adventure
  

A solutions manual is available. I don't know if it is sufficient by itself, but maybe if she is engaged by the game and she needs to learn concepts and skills in order to move forward in the game, she'd be motivated to learn those things.

 

2. What about doing origami or patty paper geometry? It might be artistic enough to get her interest.

 

3. This is not in the typical math scope & sequence, but my artsy daughter loves Harold Jacobs' Mathematics: A Human Endeavor. We use it for extension/enrichment. It connects math concepts to real-life situations.

 

As for other subjects, you mentioned that "she likes to create elaborate scenarios with her toys--people or animals and act them out. She's also artistic." Could you use this to your advantage, particularly in history and literature? Have her construct elaborate reconstructions of historic events or of the stories from classic books. She could paint backgrounds, make dioramas, make a play or a video, etc. There are some awesome youtube videos that kids have made with legos or similar items and stop-action animation that might inspire her.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Descartes Cove

 

Ooooooooooohhhh! Pretty! :D

 

I loved your advice on using art/creativity with history and lit too!

[Kalmia]

She's highly creative imaginitive. She likes to create elaborate scenarios with her toys--people or animals and act them out. She's also artistic. I'm not creative myself, so have a hard time thinking of ways to integrate something like long division into her play. Beyond practicing fractions with cooking, I don't have many ideas for living math. I do sometimes get living math books from the library and I will look at your list. Thanks for sharing it.

 

 

 

If she is highly creative, I can think of one possible way to "convince" her that all this "school stuff" may actually be useful, and that, crazy as it may seem, is to show her how some of the most creative, playful, and fun people on the planet actually draw from their studies to create marvelous imaginative worlds. These people are the scriptwriters and animators for the big-budget children's movies like Ice Age or The Crudes. First watch one of the more creative of these movies on your own and note all the instances where the jokes rely on knowledge one might have acquired in school. (I haven't got an example right now, but I remember there being several per movie). Also note down all the instances where the subject matter of the movie must have been based on intense research, the animators and writers must have "done school" on the subject before beginning. For example: the animators and writers of Ice Age must have done extensive research into ice age mammals.

 

Then watch one of the movies together, share everything you noticed, and see if she remember anything from the movie that she thinks the animators and writers remembered from their own education and research and used to created something beautiful, engaging, and fun.

 

Then watch another quality children's film and see if she can spot the "hidden knowledge" that was used to create and embellish the story on her own.

 

Ask her if the movies would have been as good if the writers and animators had not taken the time to integrate their learning into their creativity. Would the setting have been as authentic? Would the characters have had less to say? Would some of the jokes have been so funny? (ignore the obligatory body-noise, gross jokes)

 

(There might even be a "Making of Ice Age" documentary somewhere that explains the research that went into the animations.)

 

Then ask her if she'd like to create her own "story world" based on something she's interested in.

[quark]

Apart from the great ideas from pp's she might also enjoy Math Moves U and Manga High. Both are interactive, computer-based math game sites.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I so want to change whatever I need to change so that she loves to learn, but we're not even close to neutral on that yet--she hates it and is bitter about it on a daily basis. What does one do with a child who has no interest in learning at all? If I could just let her follow her passions, I'd be all over that, but she has no passions outside playing. I've sat and had many talks with her to try to come up with something she would be interested to learn about or do, or a way she would rather learn, and she just hasn't had anything. She's offended by the very idea of having to do school. And yet somehow, she still needs to learn math (which is the one thing she is passionate about--that is, she hates it with an absolute purple passion).

She's highly creative imaginitive. She likes to create elaborate scenarios with her toys--people or animals and act them out. She's also artistic. I'm not creative myself, so have a hard time thinking of ways to integrate something like long division into her play. Beyond practicing fractions with cooking, I don't have many ideas for living math. I do sometimes get living math books from the library and I will look at your list. Thanks for sharing it.

 

Something that has been enormously helpful here in the past--for each of my kids, for various reasons---is purposefully incorporating what they love into school. Not asking them what they want to do (although that works too, when they are not starting at 100% resistance), but observing what they gravitate toward and incorporating it. So instead of saying it's time for school and starting with something they hate, you would say it's time for school and start with art. You can give school a new definition! I have never been a 3 R's person anyway, but I think so many err on the side of skills, skills, skills, skills, skills, extra, skills, skills, skills, oops...no more time for extras. Don't know if this is the case for you, but when the subjects/tasks that are innately enjoyable (art, music, history projects, science experiments, read-alouds, creative writing, poetry teas, nature study/notebooks, etc.) are relegated to the bottom of the schedule and then frequently skipped altogether due to running out of time, many kids come to see school as drudgery. As has been said in this thread over and over, some kids just shut down to drudgery. So, if you are not already, consider throwing the ratio switch in favor of engagement, beginning with what she already loves. In other words, consider spending at least as much--or better yet, more--time on the kinds of learning she naturally gravitates toward. She is in the habit of resisting, so she might be tough to pull back in. It will take time and she might appear too proud to bite (this was me). Just keep at it. If you show that you want school to be enjoyable, then keep conversation going throughout the process of trying to draw her in, and keep on keeping on with a good ratio of engagement to skill, maybe that will help her come around. We fold lot of skill work into content too. They actually enjoy the skill work when it is put into context.

 

Aside from the extras, you can incorporate her strengths into skill subjects as well. DD started keeping a very Waldorfy math notebook, even created her own beautiful flash cards. Honestly, the process of "drawing number stories" probably helped her remember the math facts more than ever looking at them again. We do notebooks for other subjects too, and DD's are the most artful. She gets to design however she wants, including what she feels is most important. For DD's sake, art here has become history, science, math, poetry...art is in everything. And it still gets time on its own merits as well.

 

My kids are also very creative with their stuffies and love to teach them school. Instead of having your DD do math, could she teach it to her animals? It might require some prep work. :D Did you know that stuffed cats love to memorize poetry? They do! Some of it is slightly amateurish, but still... :tongue_smilie: Stuffed animals also love, love, LOVE to go on nature walks. ;)

 

A while back there were a couple of threads about math and art. You should search for those. I love Math for Humans. I supplement math heavily, particularly for my DS10 (who also disliked MM immensely because it was too hard=too easy). Have you tried a whiteboard? Nothing helped DS10 with math more than that whiteboard.

 

As for other subjects, you mentioned that "she likes to create elaborate scenarios with her toys--people or animals and act them out. She's also artistic." Could you use this to your advantage, particularly in history and literature? Have her construct elaborate reconstructions of historic events or of the stories from classic books. She could paint backgrounds, make dioramas, make a play or a video, etc. There are some awesome youtube videos that kids have made with legos or similar items and stop-action animation that might inspire her.

 

I love all this!

[NightOwlMama]

I'm having trouble with my 6 and 7 year old boys who are hard to teach. They ae very creative and imaginative and they only want to play. So much of what I have tried hasn't worked. I liked the ideas here - http://www.meetpenny.com/2012/07/mommys-back-to-school-boot-camp/.