Common Core math...found MUS is going CC....need to find another program

[Holly IN]

Hello

 

I found out MUS is going the way of Common Core so I need rec's of other programs to consider that is not going CC way. (please do not argue with me on the benefits or negatives.....I really do not need it ok?!) Just need rec's of those that is not converting programs to CC.

 

My daughter is in Beta right now. She will be moving on the next level end of next month with MUS. However I will have to find another program now MUS is CC.

 

Holly

[Arcadia]

Singapore Primary Math Standards edition and US edition are still not common core.

MEP follows the UK system but can still be used and is free.

[Paintedlady]

Hello

 

I found out MUS is going the way of Common Core so I need rec's of other programs to consider that is not going CC way. (please do not argue with me on the benefits or negatives.....I really do not need it ok?!) Just need rec's of those that is not converting programs to CC.

 

My daughter is in Beta right now. She will be moving on the next level end of next month with MUS. However I will have to find another program now MUS is CC.

 

Holly

 

 

Would you mind explaining why it's a problem for you? I'm admittedly ignorant about CC, so no clue what the objection is about. From what I understand so far, MUS is only adding in some additional material, not revamping the whole program if that helps at all.

 

We've used MUS for the last 6 years and plan to continue using it for my DD at least (who struggles greatly with math), and is getting ready to start Zeta soon. I intend to take her all the way through if possible, but would like to know if there's some solid reason to consider not following through with that plan because of adherance to CC.

[AimeeM]

You can request the "old" (non common core aligned) Math Mammoth from Maria Miller.

That I'm aware of, neither Horizons or CLE are common core aligned.

[MeganW]

I didn't think they were going CC - just adding word problems and expanding explanations on some topics?

[Arcadia]

From what I understand so far, MUS is only adding in some additional material, not revamping the whole program if that helps at all.

 

I didn't think they were going CC - just adding word problems and expanding explanations on some topics?

 

 

I don't use MUS but I found this on their website about the changes

 

"As additional materials from the CCSS Initiative are released, such as the publisher’s criteria, we are also endeavoring to pass on the intent of the standards by focusing on those concepts and procedures that the Initiative describes as essential and by placing less emphasis on those that the Initiative considers to be of lesser importance." (bolded mine, Source)

[Joyful_Journey]

Hmmmm...this is a little confusing. When I spoke with the MUS rep, she said the DVDs would remain the same as well as the answer keys to everything except the enhancement pages. I can't imagine they could radically change the program without changing the DVDs and student worksheets for each level. Before you completely jump ship, I would give them a call to get some details. It is possible that the rep I spoke with wasn't completely up to date on everything, but I could tell that she was answering my questions by reading off of a "cheat sheet" for folks calling with questions about the changes. If anyone else decides to call, please update us so we are all aware of what is happening. TIA!

[Tracy]

I use CSMP for my dd7. It was created in the 80's and is now available for free online. So it is not going to be changed. It has K-6th grade.

[AngieW in Texas]

I don't generally like MUS. I am using it with my youngest because it is the only program I have found to work for her at this level.

 

If you want something that is not aligned with common core, Miquon Math and Singapore Primary Mathematics should work.

 

Miquon hasn't changed in a very long time. I know it is exactly the same now as it was 15 years ago, except that the paper quality is better (used to be really thin paper that tore super easy).

 

Singapore Primary Mathematics US edition is almost the same as the old 3rd edition that originally came over her from Singapore. The differences between the 3rd edition and Primary Math are that the money is US money now rather than Singapore money, there is an English measurement section right before or after each metric measurement section (and they didn't cut out any of the metric stuff), and some (but not all) of the names have been changed. The Standards edition has been rewritten to align with California standards.

http://www.singaporemath.com/FAQ_Primary_Math_s/15.htm

 

I really liked using Miquon for beginning math and then moving on to Singapore Primary Math US edition (although my oldest used the 3rd edition because the US edition wasn't published yet).

[PachiSusan]

Is Saxon changing to CC?

[AngelBee]

If the DVDs dont change, I am confused how it lines up to CC. Trying to wrap my head around this. I don't want to have to reinvest. :(

[dereksurfs]

We used MUS all the way through from Primer through Zeta with ds11 which worked pretty well for him. Then we sold it after we found CLE worked much better for our dds. I don't think CLE follows the CC. So I would check that out.

 

Though looking back at how MUS was all over the place in terms of S&S I think this may actually help others, especially when changing to another curriculum. This was challenging for us due to its unconventional nature. We had to go back first to cover gaps before moving ahead. I'm not quite sure how it will be negative and most are probably looking forward to the changes. Though I do understand and can appreciate that you don't want to debate the issue. I'm sure you could purchase an older set without it if you feel that strongly against the CC, yet still want to use MUS.

[pdalley]

Is Saxon changing to CC?

 

 

 

It already has. http://www.hmheducation.com/saxonmath/common-core.php

 

Now I'm not sure if that's for the homeschool version or just the public/private school version.

[Katie Jean]

I'm pretty sure Teaching Textbooks is not going CC because I was speaking with a school counselor for my high schooler and he said TT wasn't acceptable for credits because its not CC.

 

Saxon is.

 

I'm not sure what the main issue for or against CC is. My youngers like TT although we go up a year because it seems to be behind. My olders did not like MUS but its because they were at an age where they snickered and snorted at anything they deemed dorky and poor Mr. Demmes wears the same thing everyday and my kids find that snicker worthy?!?!

(((Sigh))) Please don't base any decisions on my children-they are hard to please indeed.

[PachiSusan]

Ohhhh. Does that mean Saxon is getting dumbed down???

[serendipitous journey]

I really like Galore Park's Junior Maths. They are British, and used at private schools so the publisher gives not a hoot about national standards per se.

 

b/c they are targeting private schools, though, they tend to be advanced relative to age; and the S&S is even less bound to any grade-level standardized testing than Singapore is. But I think I'll try it with my second son when he's old enough.

 

ETA: if you are in the States, it is cheapest to get these from the Book Depository or sometimes Amazon.

 

And MEP is another outstanding option -- free, too. Just, I find, a bit harder to teach than Galore Park, and folks don't always like the secondary levels as much.

[Alessandra]

Would Miquon work? I do not believe it has been/is being changed.

[Gentlemommy]

MEP or Miquon. We love MEP.

[Nicholas_mom]

Why don't you buy them USED? People are still using the old way and selling them. I have the Gamma (spiral bound book) and I am done with it.

[Mom22ns]

MUS isn't changing the main part of their program. The videos aren't changing and Worksheets A-F aren't changing. All they are doing is adding 1 page to each lesson to add word problems and "enrichment" which does help them better align to CC standards. Since the entire program as it is will still be there, I don't see how this negatively effects anyone. If you don't want to add CC, skip the enrichment pages.

[Guest VetHSmom]

EDITED

 

Edited February 21, 2013 by VetHSmom
Violates our ban on advertising products

[cherylw]

I use CSMP for my dd7. It was created in the 80's and is now available for free online. So it is not going to be changed. It has K-6th grade.

 

Curious...What is this program?

[Scuff]

What is Common Core? For us ignorant...

[serendipitous journey]

 

Curious...What is this program?

 

CSMP is here. It is a free program, and was designed with essentially the pure goal of teaching maths & not having nods to national or state standards. Search the old threads: you will find, I think, that CSMP works well for very few people; but for those folks, it is a truly outstanding maths program. Certainly worth investigating to see if it might work well for you.

 

What is Common Core? For us ignorant...

 

Standards being applied across states (voluntarily) with the goal of making education in the US more robust to the moves & various things that affect student lives & progress, and I suppose also of benefiting from curricula design being streamlined & focused. At least that's my very rough understanding.

 

Here is the common core site to explain itself.

[VeritasMama]

Is Saxon changing to CC?

 

Yes, I've heard there are quite a few mistakes in the new CC edition of Saxon Algebra 1/2.

 

I'm not sure if there homeschool kits will change for CC, but the textbooks for school use are.

 

My son's middle school math teacher is disgusted by the new CC rules, he says that they will no longer be able to offer Algebra I in 8th grade for advanced students. I'm not sure why the school is following CC, since it is a private school, so I'm investigating.

[Crimson Wife]

Ohhhh. Does that mean Saxon is getting dumbed down???

 

CC does not automatically equal "dumbed down". Singapore's secondary math program has been revised and we switched versions mid-year so I have both the original edition of 1A and now the new CC edition of 7B. Both seem equally rigorous, just the CC version has added topics (the reason why I switched rather than finish out the year with the old 1B).

 

If it's a solid program like Saxon or MM, I wouldn't worry one bit about revamping to align with CC.

[Crimson Wife]

 

My son's middle school math teacher is disgusted by the new CC rules, he says that they will no longer be able to offer Algebra I in 8th grade for advanced students. I'm not sure why the school is following CC, since it is a private school, so I'm investigating.

 

This is a misunderstanding. CC is a "floor", not a ceiling. Schools are permitted to keep algebra 1 in 7th or 8th, they just cannot have their other students doing a 7th or 8th grade math class that is weaker than the CC.

[Arcadia]

 

My son's middle school math teacher is disgusted by the new CC rules, he says that they will no longer be able to offer Algebra I in 8th grade for advanced students. I'm not sure why the school is following CC, since it is a private school, so I'm investigating.

 

CC is a baseline standard, not a rule book. Even the public schools have not scrap Algebra I at 7th grade for advanced students. What the schools are doing is allow the students who do not wish to take Algebra I in 8th grade to do it in high school.

[VeritasMama]

Standards being applied across states (voluntarily) with the goal of making education in the US more robust to the moves & various things that affect student lives & progress, and I suppose also of benefiting from curricula design being streamlined & focused. At least that's my very rough understanding.

 

Here is the common core site to explain itself.

 

I think the controversy arises when a school district already has standards that are actually more robust than the CC standards, I know that from what I have seen in the private school my sons attend , according to the teachers I have spoken to the school currently has more challenging standards than the CC, and advanced students are allowed to take more advanced math and reading courses. My son's teachers have told me that once adopted, you are tied to the CC standards and have no way of specializing for your particular population, as compliance with the standards as written with documentation is necessary to recieve the funding. The teachers I have spoken to say the problem is that the CC standards are very rigid and specific, and might not meet the needs of more advanced students who are tied to the same standards as everyone else.

 

That is why math programs are changing, the CC have very specific topics that are to be covered in each grade, and anything extra is not to be taught.

 

From what I've heard, it sounds like a one size fits all solution that will leave some out in the cold.

 

My son's private middle school is aligning with the CC. The teachers I have spoken too are not happy about it, my son's math teacher says he will no longer be able to have the advanced 8th graders take Algebra, as that goes against the CC, which mandates Algebra must be taught to all 9th graders. That basically is why I send my child to a private middle school, so that he can get a more challenging education than what is available in our local public schools.

 

I intend to look into this more first hand, I may be homeschooling in middle school and high school after all, argh.

[Tracy]

 

Curious...What is this program?

 

Here is a blog post I wrote about CSMP a while ago. Feel free to PM me if you have questions. We are in our 3rd year now.

[Arcadia]

My son's teachers have told me that once adopted, you are tied to the CC standards and have no way of specializing for your particular population, as compliance with the standards as written with documentation is necessary to recieve the funding.

 

 

"stated that 85 percent of the standards were to consist of the CCSS with up to 15 percent additional material" <- this is for California and I copied from the state's department of education website.

 

My kids as public school students would be taking the common core aligned standardised test next year. However under the provisions of the GATE program, they can be accelerated in whatever subjects they are good at.

 

You would need to check with your state's DOE website to see what are facts, rumors or misinterpretations.

 

That is why math programs are changing, the CC have very specific topics that are to be covered in each grade, and anything extra is not to be taught.

 

 

This is for schools that are teaching to the test. The schools here that have a high percentage of students scoring very well on standardised tests are going to be doing "business as usual" and continue offering Algebra I at 7th/8th grade. They would probably have to pass the 8th grade Common Core aligned math standardised test to show baseline competency but it is honestly a walk in the park for those students.

[Bear23]

I am not sure what CC but last year while my children attended school fo a short time their teachers were NOT happy with the math changes. It was more work for them to figure it all out and seemed to be a mess. My concern is what someone said about TT not being counted as a high school credit. This program is working well for two of my children.

[redsquirrel]

Algebra is absolutely being taught to 8th graders in my state NY. We are a CC state.

 

I am glad that the move to CC spurred my local school district to change from Everyday Math to Singapore. That was a move in the right direction.

[Alessandra]

Algebra is absolutely being taught to 8th graders in my state NY. We are a CC state.

 

I am glad that the move to CC spurred my local school district to change from Everyday Math to Singapore. That was a move in the right direction.

 

Ditto NJ. Common Core. Algebra usually in 8th grade, maybe in 7th or 9th, depending on child's readiness.

 

However, we still have EM in elementary schools; I wish they'd change to SM type of program.

[susankhan]

I think the controversy arises when a school district already has standards that are actually more robust than the CC standards, I know that from what I have seen in the private school my sons attend , according to the teachers I have spoken to the school currently has more challenging standards than the CC, and advanced students are allowed to take more advanced math and reading courses. My son's teachers have told me that once adopted, you are tied to the CC standards and have no way of specializing for your particular population, as compliance with the standards as written with documentation is necessary to recieve the funding. The teachers I have spoken to say the problem is that the CC standards are very rigid and specific, and might not meet the needs of more advanced students who are tied to the same standards as everyone else.

 

That is why math programs are changing, the CC have very specific topics that are to be covered in each grade, and anything extra is not to be taught.

 

From what I've heard, it sounds like a one size fits all solution that will leave some out in the cold.

 

My son's private middle school is aligning with the CC. The teachers I have spoken too are not happy about it, my son's math teacher says he will no longer be able to have the advanced 8th graders take Algebra, as that goes against the CC, which mandates Algebra must be taught to all 9th graders. That basically is why I send my child to a private middle school, so that he can get a more challenging education than what is available in our local public schools.

 

I intend to look into this more first hand, I may be homeschooling in middle school and high school after all, argh.

 

 

From what I have read the "common core state standards" will be the MINIMUM that the public schools will have to follow. What this means is that ALL schools will have to teach these standards at the MINIMUM. However EACH school can choose WHAT curriculum they want to use and CAN teach ABOVE and BEYOND the standards. If a child moves from one school to another they will at least be on level when they move and have the BASIC core. This is a good thing for teachers as they can now focus and TEACH again as long as they include the common core. Being able to CHOOSE how you teach the standards means a lot to teachers. They may also do away with state testing and follow NATIONAL testing. I actually think it is a very good thing that our country will have National standards to follow.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

From what I have read the "common core state standards" will be the MINIMUM that the public schools will have to follow. What this means is that ALL schools will have to teach these standards at the MINIMUM. However EACH school can choose WHAT curriculum they want to use and CAN teach ABOVE and BEYOND the standards. If a child moves from one school to another they will at least be on level when they move and have the BASIC core. This is a good thing for teachers as they can now focus and TEACH again as long as they include the common core. Being able to CHOOSE how you teach the standards means a lot to teachers. They may also do away with state testing and follow NATIONAL testing. I actually think it is a very good thing that our country will have National standards to follow.

 

That all sounds well and good. However, that defeats the "level the playing field" purpose, doesn't it?

 

What if a child is living in another state that simply "meets" the standards and then they transfer to a school that is exceeding the standards. The child will now be way behind.

 

One needs to keep the standard or not. I don't see how this is good for the excelling states, but I can see how it's good for the states that are behind the curve.

[susankhan]

Susan, I agree that each school may vary but NOT as much as before. Now all schools across the country will follow the common core and when tested NATIONALLY this is what they will test on. It will be much easier for kids to transition if they at least have the core. Any time a child moves to a new school it is a challenge in itself. Having the common core is a change but I think that it is a good change for our country :) But that is just my opinion

[AimeeM]

 

That all sounds well and good. However, that defeats the "level the playing field" purpose, doesn't it?

 

What if a child is living in another state that simply "meets" the standards and then they transfer to a school that is exceeding the standards. The child will now be way behind.

 

One needs to keep the standard or not. I don't see how this is good for the excelling states, but I can see how it's good for the states that are behind the curve.

I agree with this.

[PachiSusan]

Susan, I agree that each school may vary but NOT as much as before. Now all schools across the country will follow the common core and when tested NATIONALLY this is what they will test on. It will be much easier for kids to transition if they at least have the core. Any time a child moves to a new school it is a challenge in itself. Having the common core is a change but I think that it is a good change for our country :) But that is just my opinion

 

I respect you for that. I just am not sure I agree, and we'll just have to wait and see how this all pans out. :)

[chicagoshannon]

Even though the law says that it's the minimum of what's to occur, the reality of what is actually happening is different.

 

The schools in our district are absolutely dumbing themselves down. I was talking to a mom of a kindergartner last night and pretty much all of the math her child is learning this year will again be taught next year in 1st because they are adjusting to the CC. They are also getting rid of all accelerated learning for 4-6th graders because of CC.

[wapiti]

They are also getting rid of all accelerated learning for 4-6th graders because of CC.

 

 

The idiocy of some school administrative decisions never ceases to amaze me.

[nansk]

I'm puzzled. If MUS teaches only addition in one year, and only subtraction in the next year, and so on, how does it align with the CC? If CC says that multiplication should be introduced in grade 2, then how can MUS achieve that with their atypical sequence?

[sweetpea3829]

I'm puzzled too. If the CC restricts what "extra" things can be taught, than how are the needs of accelerated students being met? My son is using Singapore and is in 1B. He's 6 yrs old, would technically be in Kindergarten, but is moving on to multiplication (which he's already demonstrated an understanding of, even prior to having formal lessons) and division.

 

If multiplication isn't supposed to be introduced until 2nd grade, if he were in the public school, would he be forced to sit through K and 1st grade level work for the next TWO years?

 

Somebody please tell me that they wouldn't force an accelerated student to basically "stall" their learning because they were too far accelerated for their age.

[PachiSusan]

 

Somebody please tell me that they wouldn't force an accelerated student to basically "stall" their learning because they were too far accelerated for their age.

 

I could be wrong, but I think that is what will happen.

[sweetpea3829]

 

I could be wrong, but I think that is what will happen.

 

I don't even know what to say. Aren't we supposed to be challenging our kids? Encouraging them to do their *best*? Not just meeting the needs of the average, but doing the best one can within his or her ability?

 

I just don't even know what to say!

 

So how does a program like Singapore supposedly match up to CC if they introduce multiplication and division as early as 1B? And how the heck can MUS meet CC with their more unique S&S?

[Arcadia]

Aren't we supposed to be challenging our kids? Encouraging them to do their *best*? Not just meeting the needs of the average, but doing the best one can within his or her ability?

 

In a school setting, it is hard to customise to the individual student. After all its NCLB.

 

If your child is in school, find out the school district's GATE policy. Also be prepared to afterschool math if you are not already doing so.

 

If you are homeschooling, than just follow your child's lead and go as fast as he wants.

 

ETA:

Just saw your above post that you are homeschooling. Than just go as fast as your child can learn.

[sweetpea3829]

Yeah, this is one of many reasons that we did choose to homeschool. Our oldest, on the flip side of the coin, has dyscalculia and really struggles with math.

 

I'm still floored, though, that policy would prohibit an advanced student's needs from being met. It just doesn't seem right! My son would be bored to misbehavior.

[Crimson Wife]

Even though the law says that it's the minimum of what's to occur, the reality of what is actually happening is different.

 

The schools in our district are absolutely dumbing themselves down. I was talking to a mom of a kindergartner last night and pretty much all of the math her child is learning this year will again be taught next year in 1st because they are adjusting to the CC. They are also getting rid of all accelerated learning for 4-6th graders because of CC.

 

This sounds like CC is being used as an excuse for detracking, which has been pushed by educrats for a long time but resisted by parents for obvious reasons. Now the anti-tracking folks have a scapegoat in CC for an unpopular policy change.

[misty.warden]

Why don't you buy them USED? People are still using the old way and selling them. I have the Gamma (spiral bound book) and I am done with it.

 

I wondered this as well, I bought all my Saxon stuff used but I don't know which edition is CC. I didn't think MUS used consumable workbooks so what would need to be bought new?

 

 

Somebody please tell me that they wouldn't force an accelerated student to basically "stall" their learning because they were too far accelerated for their age.

 

Already happens/has happened in the past, sorry to say. Peer promotion and preventing gifted kids from skipping grades/classes for which they already meet the requirements are a huge reason I homeschool.

[dereksurfs]

For the majority of us who homeschool I don't see this as any sort of problem, really. If there is then please enlighten me? We can simply accelerate once a set of skills are covered and move on... to Algebra, Geometry or whatever we feel our child is ready for.

 

Grade 'minimums' on the other hand could help some programs depending on what they 'don't' currently cover such as MUS, TT, etc... I wish MUS would have covered certain topics earlier when instead they put them off until much later. ds11 is amazed at times when he sees what concepts our dds are being introduced to much earlier in CLE such as negative numbers among many other things. That's why within the context of this original question I don't really see the downside when referring 'specifically to MUS.' I'm more intrigued with how MUS will actually pull this off.

 

On the other hand if one wants to philosophize on the overall merits of CC within a greatly flawed public school system, that really is an entirely different question. It also introduces a whole set of different outcomes which are highly dependent upon regional school administration policy making. Will a 7th or 8th grader be allowed to move ahead into Algebra for example? Isn't that going so far afield its basically irrelevant to the OP? Or am I am missing the connection to MUS and the scope of their intended curriculum changes? From what I've read so far any planned change will be 'additive' to what is already there. So far all I'm hearing is a general dislike or mistrust of minimum CC standards which hasn't seemed to effect other programs negatively such as SM. Is this somehow guilt by association?