NY Times Article: It Takes a BA to find a job as a file clerk

[stripe]

This is the most depressing thread ever.

 

I find the job market to be the biggest example of cronyism I've ever seen. This, to me, is why many minorities (I use the term for anyone who is not a part of the accepted mainstream group, could be for any number of reasons, not just ethnicity) cannot crack easily into a new field. I am so tired. The playing field is not even remotely even. It is just frightening and terribly depressing.

[Word Nerd]

The people from the firm in the original article sounded to me like they wanted to assure themselves that they would only be surrounded by "PLUs," People Like Us. I suspect that requiring a four-year degree to answer phones is one way of doing that. The whole "our Christmas tree covered in college mascots" and slapping each other on the back during football season? Yeah, it's the post-millennial gold ole boy network; poor people need not apply.

 

I am possibly one of the most conservative Red Staters you will ever meet, and it smacks of that even to me.

 

Terri

 

 

I think the reason is much more pragmatic than that and don't see how you can ascribe negative motives to the company's hiring policy based only on this article. If you have hundreds of applications even for entry-level jobs, there has to be some way to compare and sort them. Education level is an easy marker to target and is at least in theory a fair gauge to measure a person's qualifications.

[stripe]

 

 

I think the reason is much more pragmatic than that and don't see how you can ascribe negative hiring motives to the company's policy based only on this article. If you have hundreds of applications even for entry-level jobs, there has to be some way to compare and sort them. Education level is an easy marker to target and is at least in theory a fair gauge to measure a person's qualifications.

 

Sure, but a college degree shouldn't be required to prove one is literate, only now that is basically what it does. Frightening.

[plansrme]

I don't understand why there are so many unemployed people with their useless and expensive college degrees (fashion retail? really?) and I can't get a plumber or an electrician to return my calls. Please, moms, encourage some of your handy sons and daughters to go into the trades. Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs, and certainly others, have been campaigning for this for a while. The average age of licensed trades people is really high right now, and the average age of unemployed guys with degrees in business from the local degree mill is awfully low. Someone please hook these two up. If the midwest doesn't need you, come to Atlanta--we obviously do.

 

Terri

[plansrme]

Kind of like the rush to Nebraska or South Dakota or wherever it was recently that struck oil....WAY more people went than there were jobs available...people lived in tents, it was crazy.

 

So, it's great that this is available to high school graduates in your area, but it is not an option in the midwestern states since that industry has completely tanked.

 

Faith

 

 

Every story I've heard and read about this says quite the opposite--there are plenty of jobs there. The housing just has not caught up. The people living in tents are working and making plenty of money; there's just nowhere else to live.

 

Terri

[kewb]

 

The computer industry has almost always been one where experience is as good if not more appreciable than a degree. A lot of people would rather have those with a passion, who study and are self starters. I can't speak to all careers but in our life, most of our friends don't have degrees and are working very successful, stable jobs.

 

 

 

for programming this is still somewhat true but for other IT stuff if you want the promotions and the big money raises you need to have a degree and then get your masters. You can go pretty far without a degree but eventually you hit a ceiling. At least in our area.

[gardenmom5]

there are so many worthless BA's that have no bearing in the job market. e.g. women's studies for a major has the lowest pay grade, that even when the economy was good, it paid squat.

[FaithManor]

Every story I've heard and read about this says quite the opposite--there are plenty of jobs there. The housing just has not caught up. The people living in tents are working and making plenty of money; there's just nowhere else to live.

 

Terri

 

That's interesting. I'll have to look up the Michigan statistics. A number of people from our area left to get jobs there and came back empty handed saying there weren't any. I'll have to delve more deeply to find out what is anecdotal and what is supported.

 

Thanks,

Faith

[FaithManor]

I don't understand why there are so many unemployed people with their useless and expensive college degrees (fashion retail? really?) and I can't get a plumber or an electrician to return my calls. Please, moms, encourage some of your handy sons and daughters to go into the trades. Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs, and certainly others, have been campaigning for this for a while. The average age of licensed trades people is really high right now, and the average age of unemployed guys with degrees in business from the local degree mill is awfully low. Someone please hook these two up. If the midwest doesn't need you, come to Atlanta--we obviously do.

 

Terri

 

In our area, it's because the bottom dropped out of construction. Little repair jobs here and there do not bring in enough money to keep the business afloat. Usually trades people need several large jobs per year, house renovations, new construction, large additions, etc. in order to make enough to continue in business. How many times per year does the average homeowner need a $50.00 repair? Very few times. If there are five plumbers in the area, there isn't enough little work to even have one job per day. At least this is true in less densely populated areas. However, the converse is that in densely populaces, there is a lot more competition for those jobs. Either way, when the construction market tanks, there isn't enough work to keep them going. So, they go out of business. Many will find work somewhere else. They may moonlight for money on the side, but that means a long wait to get them to come to your house.

 

We've lost so many electrical journeyman in this area, that the wait to have anything repaired is two-three months.

 

The other thing that happens is that in a recession or depression, depending on your definition depends on what one would call this particular economy, people buy the "plumbing for dummies book, or whatever", access the internet, call grandpa out of retirement, etc. and become "do-it-yourselfers" in order to save money. Things that we used to have done so dh didn't have to take time out of his hectic schedule to accomplish, oil changes, roof repairs, scraping and painting around windows, etc. are now done by dh and the three teenage boys which means we've hurt the trades industry with our actions, but the reality is dh hasn't had a pay raise in five years, so with inflation comes battening down the hatches.

 

It is a VERY vicious cycle and especially for a nation that had enjoyed a long run of never ending expansion. This whole mess is going to eventually find an equilibrium, however, I'm not certain Americans are going to like make-over.

 

Faith

[Library Momma]

Around here where the degree comes from doesn't matter IF someone is already on the job and merely needs the degree to check that box. U Phoenix or other online option? Fine. I've yet to see someone hired as a newbie with such a degree. For a first job, it still seems to matter.

 

It may be different in different areas.

 

 

 

This is what it's like in my area as well. I have worked for the same company for 20 years, and even 20 years ago you needed a degree for any position in the company other than a maintenance worker. They looked at where you went to school and what your degree was in -even for the girl at the front desk answering phones. Today they are even more discerning (and it's the entertainment industry, which is about as laid back as you can get).

[elegantlion]

That's interesting. I'll have to look up the Michigan statistics. A number of people from our area left to get jobs there and came back empty handed saying there weren't any. I'll have to delve more deeply to find out what is anecdotal and what is supported.

 

Thanks,

Faith

 

 

We're in the midwest. In the last two years no construction companies were hiring. Dh has 30 years of experience. Some jobs were open, but they wanted a degree even with his experience. This year, as in the last six months, we've seen a little growth, but not enough to sustain new businesses. If they are hiring it's usually entry level which pays barely more than minimum wage.

 

Dh is now back to being self-employed, contracted through a former job. They have enough work to keep him busy through the year, but after that I don't know. He's happy back working for himself, he sets the hours and is making better money.

 

Plumbers and electricians are in a better situation in our area. Most people can't put off problems in those areas, but painting a room or doing it yourself remodeling has become fairly common. Most municipalities require at least at electrical or plumbing permit pulled by a licensed individual, even if they don't on other aspects of a DIY project.

[plansrme]

In our area, it's because the bottom dropped out of construction. Little repair jobs here and there do not bring in enough money to keep the business afloat. Usually trades people need several large jobs per year, house renovations, new construction, large additions, etc. in order to make enough to continue in business. How many times per year does the average homeowner need a $50.00 repair? Very few times. If there are five plumbers in the area, there isn't enough little work to even have one job per day. At least this is true in less densely populated areas. However, the converse is that in densely populaces, there is a lot more competition for those jobs. Either way, when the construction market tanks, there isn't enough work to keep them going. So, they go out of business. Many will find work somewhere else. They may moonlight for money on the side, but that means a long wait to get them to come to your house.

 

We've lost so many electrical journeyman in this area, that the wait to have anything repaired is two-three months.

 

The other thing that happens is that in a recession or depression, depending on your definition depends on what one would call this particular economy, people buy the "plumbing for dummies book, or whatever", access the internet, call grandpa out of retirement, etc. and become "do-it-yourselfers" in order to save money. Things that we used to have done so dh didn't have to take time out of his hectic schedule to accomplish, oil changes, roof repairs, scraping and painting around windows, etc. are now done by dh and the three teenage boys which means we've hurt the trades industry with our actions, but the reality is dh hasn't had a pay raise in five years, so with inflation comes battening down the hatches.

 

It is a VERY vicious cycle and especially for a nation that had enjoyed a long run of never ending expansion. This whole mess is going to eventually find an equilibrium, however, I'm not certain Americans are going to like make-over.

 

Faith

 

 

A $50 repair? :lol: Not around here. They don't answer their phones for $50. Try $150 to walk into your house, literally. I find it hard to believe a plumber can't make ends' meet on $600/day. When I've tried to find people to do bigger jobs, i.e., jobs that might take a couple of days, no one will even return my calls. Every trades person I've talked to says they can't find good help, that no one wants to work and get his hands dirty. They can't all be wrong.

 

Terri

[Arcadia]

 

 

What's scary is that I really don't see a good job market anywhere.

 

Check this out.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/the-phd-bust-americas-awful-market-for-young-scientists-in-7-charts/273339/

 

The article does not breakdown the fresh PhD grads into whether they have any prior job experience. There is still a decent amount of PhD holders here who are looking to change jobs or re-enter the job market. That makes it harder for fresh PhD grads who have never worked. Those usually get their first job through networking.

[Parrothead]

 

Sad to say, this is what we experience here too. The licensing alone for any kind of business in Michigan is tough. Some states may be more amenable to starting a business, but in heavily regulated areas, 18 year olds can't make it without a lot of cash. The insurance industry has a strangle hold here. Liability insurance alone for a cottage industry can be a killer and if you are caught operating a business without that, you'll be toasted. I stopped giving piano and voice lessons in my home 9 years ago. My liability insurance then just to cover a business related accident on my property (much, much more than the cost of having "accident" insurance for regular homeowner's policy) was $3600.00 per year. That number has nearly doubled. Many piano teachers either choose not to carry it and hope nothing happens, or they teach at a music store and pay rent and commission to the store, or they go out of business. I know that if I had taught through the music store, I would have paid $500.00 a month rent for my room plus 20% commission on the lessons. Of course, no 18 year old is going to get that anyway because music teachers need advanced training in order to teach at a level that allows you to charge a decent some of money for the lesson.

 

Most of the area businesses pay $7000.00 per year in liability if the business is located on personal property - ie. out of their garage or basement assuming zoning will allow you to do this. Store fronts pay anywhere from $10,000 - 15,000.00. Then there is licensing - often $1500.00 - 3000.00 per year, employer taxes (double the withholding of employee taxes), etc. The state actively pursues shutting down businesses trying to fly under the radar and the penalties are not pretty.

 

Maybe if the high schooler did something like cake decorating and lived in a state in which one could sell your wedding cakes without a licensed kitchen (some states one would be forced to get commercial licensing) and could live with mom and pop, then the 18/19 year old could make money. But, make a living? I doubt it. We have five professional cake decorators in our county and they are open about the fact that one can't live on it. The most prolific one, dd's cake decorator, is a Wilton distributor and does all kinds of intricate baked goods for a variety of events. She is able to have enough gigs to be baking, decorating, and selling product nearly every day. However, she said if her husband didn't have an income, she'd be virtually homeless on what she makes from it. This isn't Manhatten, D.C., or San Francisco and no one is paying $3000.00 for a wedding cake or $5.00 each for a special cookie. Her net profit is about $11,000.00 per year. Rent, utilities, food, car, car insurance, and gas for said car alone in this area would be more than that and that's leading a spartan lifestyle. I can think of other "easy to start of up" businesses for our area and none of them would provide a living wage. Taking on an employee means paying workman's comp and that's a large amount of money too.

 

I can not think of any business a new high school graduate could start in this state that would net a living wage without a significant start-up cost and even if the parents put out the working capitol to get it started, without training in business law and accounting, I don't think it would last long. This state is just too complicated to do business in without significant knowledge of the system to get you started.

 

Faith

 

We are in one of those have to have a commercial kitchen states. I think the only way young entrepreneurs will make it is if the laws are changed.

[VeritasMama]

Interesting. In my area, an 18 year old wouldn't have a chance of getting a job like that much less building up that kind of job. We've got a bazillion out-of-work people in the construction industry and many contractors went bankrupt. It is not an option for most kids in the midwest and flooding the areas that still have these jobs with a lot of 18 and 19 year olds will not be helpful because there will be more kids looking than there are jobs and no infrastructure to deal with them. Kind of like the rush to Nebraska or South Dakota or wherever it was recently that struck oil....WAY more people went than there were jobs available...people lived in tents, it was crazy.

 

So, it's great that this is available to high school graduates in your area, but it is not an option in the midwestern states since that industry has completely tanked.

 

Faith

 

 

I'm from North Dakota and some of my family still live there, my hubby's family lives in Montana right next to the ND border.

 

There are a TON of jobs in Western ND. You can make $20.00 an hour at McDonald's, they are that desperate for service workers. They are flying people in from other areas and putting them up in hotels for 2 weeks to work at the local Walmarts, and they are paying them $25.00 an hour. There are a ton of construction jobs, the local contractors can barely keep up. In my hometown, they are building more and more houses, restaurants and hotels and businesses to serve the rise in population, but can't find anyone to work in the businesses because everyone is out in the oil fields.

 

The reason there were workers living in "tents" is because there was not enough housing in the sparsely populated area to house all the workers that poured in when the boom began, not because they got there and there no jobs. Now, they have built a lot of new housing, but most of the oil field workers are still living for free in the "man camps" (which are made up of trailers, not tents) and then they fly home every 2 weeks to be with their families. They are making so much money that this is still practical for them.

 

The local communities are really hoping that more of these workers will bring up their families and settle into the new housing so that they can have more teenagers and women to work at the local businesses, but it isn't really happening. Some speculate that too many of the families are underwater in their mortgages in the areas they are living and can't afford to sell. Some are saying that their families simply don't want to uproot and move that far away from everything. It's a great place to live, if you like rural areas, outdoor activities, and can handle harsh weather. I guess most people prefer to commute and live in urban areas.

 

Either way, there are plenty of jobs in Western ND, and you don't need a B.A. for most of them. You just need to be willing to move.

[Parrothead]

I think the reason is much more pragmatic than that and don't see how you can ascribe negative motives to the company's hiring policy based only on this article. If you have hundreds of applications even for entry-level jobs, there has to be some way to compare and sort them. Education level is an easy marker to target and is at least in theory a fair gauge to measure a person's qualifications.

 

 

20 years ago one would be considered overqualified to be a receptionist if one had a BA and applied. Today it is a requirement to have a BA to simply answer a phone and connect the party to the correct extension.

[Parrothead]

I don't understand why there are so many unemployed people with their useless and expensive college degrees (fashion retail? really?) and I can't get a plumber or an electrician to return my calls. Please, moms, encourage some of your handy sons and daughters to go into the trades. Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs, and certainly others, have been campaigning for this for a while. The average age of licensed trades people is really high right now, and the average age of unemployed guys with degrees in business from the local degree mill is awfully low. Someone please hook these two up. If the midwest doesn't need you, come to Atlanta--we obviously do.

 

Terri

 

My handyman (well, really he is the landlord's handyman) quit his job to start his own business about 2 years ago. This guy is every where. He is so backed up with appointments that he is working on holidays and Sundays. One guy with a van in his 50s.

[Word Nerd]

 

 

20 years ago one would be considered overqualified to be a receptionist if one had a BA and applied. Today it is a requirement to have a BA to simply answer a phone and connect the party to the correct extension.

 

 

Twenty years ago that may have been the only job responsibility a receptionist had--though even then, I doubt it.

[creekland]

I don't understand why there are so many unemployed people with their useless and expensive college degrees (fashion retail? really?) and I can't get a plumber or an electrician to return my calls. Please, moms, encourage some of your handy sons and daughters to go into the trades. Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs, and certainly others, have been campaigning for this for a while. The average age of licensed trades people is really high right now, and the average age of unemployed guys with degrees in business from the local degree mill is awfully low. Someone please hook these two up. If the midwest doesn't need you, come to Atlanta--we obviously do.

 

Terri

 

 

I think this depends upon the area too. In our area, until recently, many of these folks were going door to door seeking work/jobs. Several left fliers in our mailbox. Hurricane Sandy has provided work though they have to drive 4 - 5 hours to get to it. Most have, so lately we haven't even seen one flyer. BUT, we're in a rural area where many people do things (esp repairs) themselves and when the economy hit, even more did. In a less rural area I think less people are the DIY types.

[Jenny in Florida]

Every story I've heard and read about this says quite the opposite--there are plenty of jobs there. The housing just has not caught up. The people living in tents are working and making plenty of money; there's just nowhere else to live.

 

Terri

 

 

That is my understanding, too, after listening to a couple of hour-long news reports. Housing in those areas is in short supply and, consequently, extremely expensive. (We're talking about Manhattan real estate rates in the middle of Nebraska.) In those "rush" areas, they can't even get people to work at fast food restaurants, because there are so many other, better paying jobs begging for employees.

[Wildcat]

. 

 

[Parrothead]

Twenty years ago that may have been the only job responsibility a receptionist had--though even then, I doubt it.

 

Do receptionists have more responsibility today other than answering phones and directing people to the proper office?

[Parrothead]

I so don't get this, especially the part I bolded. I was a teller for several years. I actually had to reach in my drawer, pick out and count the money and make change, etc. I was in the bank last week and told dh that the teller is basically just an ATM now. She hit some buttons, the machine behind her spit out the money, and she counted it to me. Really?? I also know that for many things I used to do there are now "special people" we have to see. Want a savings bond? See the savings bond person. Want to send a money wire? See the wire person. I did all of that *and* opened accounts among other things. I can't figure out what our tellers do anymore. Not to mention they get paid much more than I did, AND they dress way more casually than I did, too.

 

To get back on topic, I totally don't agree with the 'degree for everyone/every job' thing. It's ridiculous.

 

 

Not 5 minutes ago I was at the bank trying to ascertain where my money went after I pushed money into that account on Saturday. She didn't know squat. Every question I asked had the answer of, "Well, I don't know." She finally asked me if I wanted to talk to someone else.

 

She printed out my account transactions and I was able to figure out what happened (they held the money for 5 days).

[stripe]

Do receptionists have more responsibility today other than answering phones and directing people to the proper office?

When I worked in an office, the receptionist also got stuck making coffee and cleaning up the meeting room.

[Arcadia]

Do receptionists have more responsibility today other than answering phones and directing people to the proper office?

 

This was what the company receptionist had to do 13 years ago where I worked. She was paid very well and happen to have a degree (as in it was not required back than to get her job, it was a MNC's regional HQ)

 

"Receive, direct and relay telephone messages and fax messages

Direct guests to the appropriate staff

member

Pick up and deliver the mail

Open and date stamp all general correspondence

Maintain the general filing system and file all correspondence

Assist in the planning and preparation of meetings, conferences and conference calls

Make preparations for company meetings

Maintain an adequate inventory of office supplies

Respond to public inquiries

Provide word-processing and secretarial support"

 

The executive secretaries were all degree holders and most have an MBA as well.

[Word Nerd]

 

Do receptionists have more responsibility today other than answering phones and directing people to the proper office?

 

Ours does a lot more than that, which has been the norm in the small- to mid-sized companies where I've worked.

[misty.warden]

Didn't NYT just publish an article about how stupid humans are getting? It's not so easy keeping up with sound bites a & rhetoric.

 

 

Just because they have a degree doesn't mean they're smart, correlation and causation there. Likewise people who don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt look like the smartest to me.

 

I think it's this, mostly, along with the push to get everyone to go to college.

 

It seems to me that we keep chasing the wrong goals, in terms of education. I mean, we keep hearing how high school graduation rates are going up, and we're sending more and more people to college, which sounds like great progress. But, in practice, what it means is that we're dumbing down the high school curriculum and standards, sending folks to college who aren't prepared and have to take remedial classes before they can even start their real college education, dumbing down the college curriculum to make it possible for some reasonable percentage of those folks to graduate and still seeing large numbers of folks who drop out of college burdened with debt and without a degree.

 

It would make so much more sense, I think, to make high school more rigorous and encourage post-secondary programs that would be meaningful, rather than pushing college as the right path for everyone.

 

 

My SO is in an engineering college and the pre-requisite physics and chemistry classes, consistently curve grades even if there are students with 100% grades on tests so that the students who are scoring 50% and below are passed to the next level, failing them or requiring remedial classes would put them back a whole year because the sections are only taught in certain semesters and destroy the college's graduation statistics. I'm thinking the kids with 160% A+ grades are not impressed with graduating next to people awarded degrees and competing for jobs with them.

 

 

It isn't 'get a job', it is 'start your own business' after apprenticing with dad or uncle. They live at home, parent helps them get the first vehicle and maybe lends some tools. They hire other guys and transport them to the jobsite. They supervise, they get the job done fast. To be in this industry, you have to go to where people who have money are building or remodeling and you have to be a go-getter. Once you establish yourself with a quality reputation, you do fine. But if you don't have that personality, and you can't get yourself out of apprentice level, you aren't going to make it. If you are a legal immigrant, it's app 4 years from arrival to purchasing your own home - but you work every day you can, every hour you can. No 37.5 hr weeks.

 

My neighbor who is a union construction guy can't find work at his master crafstman level..not many are paying that high a wage right now.

 

 

And if your parents aren't in the trades to loan you tools or help you get a car or you want to be in a union? Apprenticeships here are earn while you learn, but the wait lists are months to years long, have queues and ranking, service areas can cover the entire state (which means you either have to move or commute hundreds of miles) and only take applicants when there are jobs available. I personally would not go into business as a non-union tradesman even if I didn't have ds, the dangers of the work with no insurance or guarantee of wages or work after investing in tools doesn't look any better than taking out more loans to be a secretary.

[cathmom]

I don't think a degree in "fashion and retail management" sounds fluffy - there will always be clothing stores and they will need managers.

[justamouse]

I don't think a degree in "fashion and retail management" sounds fluffy - there will always be clothing stores and they will need managers.

 

Can you imagine a country with no service based jobs?

 

Well, we already check ourselves out of the grocery store, and that's always such an epic failure (am I the ONLY one who has to call someone over each time?) I can't imagine anything else would run smoothly.

[FaithManor]

A $50 repair? :lol: Not around here. They don't answer their phones for $50. Try $150 to walk into your house, literally. I find it hard to believe a plumber can't make ends' meet on $600/day. When I've tried to find people to do bigger jobs, i.e., jobs that might take a couple of days, no one will even return my calls. Every trades person I've talked to says they can't find good help, that no one wants to work and get his hands dirty. They can't all be wrong.

 

Terri

 

 

See, again it's the area you live in. We have nearly 20% unemployment and a median salary for the county that has fallen to $29,000.00. Repos are EVERYWHERE. Try to charge more than $50.00 for a one hour job and you'll be laughed off the property. People simply.don't.have.it.here. So, either you take the work for what people can pay or you don't have the work. There aren't enough high income families to charge the big bucks.

 

My dad has had to drop his service charge for furnace maintenance in half. Literally, elderly people and out of work couples would let their houses blow up. When the well is dry, it's dry.

 

But, again, it all depends on where you live. Obviously, in your part of the US things are definitely better than they are here.

 

Faith

[FaithManor]

It isn't 'get a job', it is 'start your own business' after apprenticing with dad or uncle. They live at home, parent helps them get the first vehicle and maybe lends some tools. They hire other guys and transport them to the jobsite. They supervise, they get the job done fast. To be in this industry, you have to go to where people who have money are building or remodeling and you have to be a go-getter. Once you establish yourself with a quality reputation, you do fine. But if you don't have that personality, and you can't get yourself out of apprentice level, you aren't going to make it. If you are a legal immigrant, it's app 4 years from arrival to purchasing your own home - but you work every day you can, every hour you can. No 37.5 hr weeks.

 

My neighbor who is a union construction guy can't find work at his master crafstman level..not many are paying that high a wage right now.

 

See, the fundamental difference is that you are living somewhere that has an economy still moving. There aren't any apprenticeships with mom and dad or grandma and grandpa. Those businesses went bankrupt and mom and dad are trying to survive on Walmart greeter salaries. It's not pretty. My dad SOOOOOOOOO regrets not getting out of his business back when another company wanted him to work on a research project with them. He was afraid it might not be long term and chose not to sell out. Big mistake. He'll never get more than a few pennies on the dollar for what his business should be worth, not even for extremely expensive tools.

 

That's the rub. I've heard many a homeschooling parent lament that all of the family businesses are gone. In my county, you can go into any hamlet and find mainstreet virtually boarded up...for rent, for sale, repossessed signs in building after building after building, plus defunct farms, empty barns, ..... it's frightening! There isn't any business for the kids to work in, learn the ropes, and get established. There aren't any apprenticeships. It's really hurting the Vo-Tech center that for years, had helped a LOT of non-college bound kids, gain skills and establish a business. If it keeps up, the Vo-Tech will close and it's a crying shame because they've always done an excellent job. But, this is also the county that ended spousal benefits to county employees. That's right...only the employee gets medical insurance. It was that or stop paying for 911 and subsidizing the county hospital making it a 50 min. drive to the nearest emergency room. That's how dire things are here and there isn't any abuse of public funds. There just simply aren't any public funds. It's very, very bad. How they are going to pay for insurance once 2014 comes around and they have to provide for whole families, I do not know. There is talk of shutting most of the county services that are non-emergency down to 2.5 days per week and making everyone part-time except first responders who would remain full time with benefits, judges, baliffs, and the judges' clerks. Of course, this adds to the nightmare because every person who sees their work and thus pay cut in half, every person who is fired, becomes another person not spending any money and needing help from the state which only fuels the fire.

 

We used to have a lot of immigrant workers. But, the economy has collapsed to such a degree that there isn't anyone to hire them either.

 

Faith

[FaithManor]

I so don't get this, especially the part I bolded. I was a teller for several years. I actually had to reach in my drawer, pick out and count the money and make change, etc. I was in the bank last week and told dh that the teller is basically just an ATM now. She hit some buttons, the machine behind her spit out the money, and she counted it to me. Really?? I also know that for many things I used to do there are now "special people" we have to see. Want a savings bond? See the savings bond person. Want to send a money wire? See the wire person. I did all of that *and* opened accounts among other things. I can't figure out what our tellers do anymore. Not to mention they get paid much more than I did, AND they dress way more casually than I did, too.

 

To get back on topic, I totally don't agree with the 'degree for everyone/every job' thing. It's ridiculous.

 

The reason for this in our local banks is because they are small and do not need a plethora of tellers. These are locally owned banks and they need the tellers to really do a multitude of things. I've been waited on to simply make a deposit by the bank manager, the head loan officer, and the investments counselor. It's how it is. Small number of employees and everyone could do pretty much every job in there if absolutely necessary. They cross train and it allows them to not have a lot of tellers that may wait several minutes between customers and not have very much to do. It's probably different in the big banks in the city. Not here in rural Michigan. My favorite bank teller can help ds open a savings account, answer detailed questions about CD's and other interest earning options, help me fill out my paperwork to get a car loan, and tell me exactly what collectible coins are coming out, when, and their expected appreciation rates in the first year. They'll also help someone balance their checkbook for a small fee, and well, a lot of other things. So, they are kind of "jack of all trades" within the bank. Generally, though in terms of approving a loan, while the tellers can help you get the ball rolling, they can't approve it.

 

Of course, the added problem is that the local high school can't turn out more than a few kids per year who can actually make change. I'm serious - it is a HUGE complaint in this area. I've got people around here who think my kids are geniuses because they can tell you how much change you'll get for a $6.19 cent purchase if you pay with a ten spot and they can give the answer in a very timely fashion. Meanwhile, the brain cells of local graduates are popping and invariably, this is the reponse, "I was never good at word problems."

 

It's apparently not important for the ACT and any other standardized test they use so they do.not.teach.it. Likely, the bank needs to require the A.A. in the hopes that students picked it up during all of those business classes! :glare: According to my bank manager, they haven't hired a local high school graduate in a decade. That speaks volumes right there.

 

Faith

[K&Rs Mom]

Well, we already check ourselves out of the grocery store, and that's always such an epic failure (am I the ONLY one who has to call someone over each time?) I can't imagine anything else would run smoothly.

 

:smilielol5: I did this on Monday - usually I have time to wait in one of the two open lines with an actual cashier. I got in the you-scan line, saw other people doing it, they seemed successful, I've used it before for one or two things, how hard could it be? But then :banghead: there were a half-dozen things I couldn't get to scan, and by the end I was so flustered I totally forgot about my one coupon and left it on the counter. So much for my college education proving anything....

[plansrme]

 

 

 

See, again it's the area you live in. We have nearly 20% unemployment and a median salary for the county that has fallen to $29,000.00. Repos are EVERYWHERE. Try to charge more than $50.00 for a one hour job and you'll be laughed off the property. People simply.don't.have.it.here. So, either you take the work for what people can pay or you don't have the work. There aren't enough high income families to charge the big bucks.

 

My dad has had to drop his service charge for furnace maintenance in half. Literally, elderly people and out of work couples would let their houses blow up. When the well is dry, it's dry.

 

But, again, it all depends on where you live. Obviously, in your part of the US things are definitely better than they are here.

 

Faith

 

 

And see, the original article is about a firm in Atlanta. No one is saying the economy everywhere is fine and dandy, but if it is not where you live, I repeat my appeal to send your handy young 'uns to Atlanta. Teach them how to wire a house first, them send 'em.

 

Terri (who is off to contemplate why this all feels like an argument)

 

[Whereneverever]

Our unemployment rate is about 5%. We have tons of jobs and not enough people to fill them, and most of them require no degree and pay well. Wyo oil field workers can earn a really decent wage with no degree. It seems like people need to be willing or able to move to the jobs from some of these areas. A 20% unemployment rate sounds terrifying.

[creekland]

 

The reason for this in our local banks is because they are small and do not need a plethora of tellers. These are locally owned banks and they need the tellers to really do a multitude of things. I've been waited on to simply make a deposit by the bank manager, the head loan officer, and the investments counselor. It's how it is. Small number of employees and everyone could do pretty much every job in there if absolutely necessary. They cross train and it allows them to not have a lot of tellers that may wait several minutes between customers and not have very much to do. It's probably different in the big banks in the city.

 

Faith

 

Our banks are like yours. Our tellers do a plethora of things. I was rather amazed to read that there are banks where tellers specialize. But then again, we're rural with small banks too.

 

Our unemployment rate is about 5%. We have tons of jobs and not enough people to fill them, and most of them require no degree and pay well. Wyo oil field workers can earn a really decent wage with no degree. It seems like people need to be willing or able to move to the jobs from some of these areas. A 20% unemployment rate sounds terrifying.

 

:iagree: The key for many is they will have to relocate to where the jobs are. Few seem to want to do that. Fortunately for us, hubby can work all over the world right from our house (via the net), so it's worked for us to stay here even though local jobs don't totally sustain us. He has Engineering licenses in a few states and can easily get them in others if jobs (he wants) appear in those.

[Renee in NC]

I don't understand why there are so many unemployed people with their useless and expensive college degrees (fashion retail? really?) and I can't get a plumber or an electrician to return my calls. Please, moms, encourage some of your handy sons and daughters to go into the trades. Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs, and certainly others, have been campaigning for this for a while. The average age of licensed trades people is really high right now, and the average age of unemployed guys with degrees in business from the local degree mill is awfully low. Someone please hook these two up. If the midwest doesn't need you, come to Atlanta--we obviously do.

 

Terri

 

It isn't that simple, unfortunately. That plumber that charges you $65-100 an hour for a service call is not pocketing that money. Around here, the wages for trades have fallen tremendously over the past 10-15 years. The way to make money is to work for yourself and sub-contract jobs. If you can't work for yourself you might make some more money, but there's little stability and no benefits that way. Overhead is expensive - insurance alone is thousands each year. If you work for someone else, you'll max out at $40K. Trades jobs are hard work, and most of the "trades" people I know are *old* at 50 or so. My dad was lucky to find a decent paying job as a plumbing inspector, but others haven't.

 

I am not a "college for everyone person," and I have children that will not go to college. One will be a mechanic, and he'll be fine career-wise (he's going to do custom diesel work most likely.) The other will be steered into a career that doesn't require college, but he will not be able to run his own business (unless his Mama does it for him, which is a possibility.) I just think that you have to look at it realistically. A service-based economy polarizes the socioeconomic classes

[Renee in NC]

A $50 repair? :lol: Not around here. They don't answer their phones for $50. Try $150 to walk into your house, literally. I find it hard to believe a plumber can't make ends' meet on $600/day. When I've tried to find people to do bigger jobs, i.e., jobs that might take a couple of days, no one will even return my calls. Every trades person I've talked to says they can't find good help, that no one wants to work and get his hands dirty. They can't all be wrong.

 

Terri

 

 

As someone who has done a lot of accounting for people in the trades, it isn't that simple. $600 a day sounds like a lot, but that isn't profit. He has to pay for that truck he came in, gas/wear and tear, materials, insurance, etc. He has to pay his own health insurance (my Dad's insurance at one point was $2500 a MONTH!) A lot of plumbers don't work for homeowners because they can be very aggravating and the money just isn't there (despite what homeowners think about the prices they charge.) It's easier if you are self-employed to work on new construction, and the pay is better.

[Renee in NC]

 

 

The executive secretaries were all degree holders and most have an MBA as well.

 

 

The Executive Assistant to the Sr VP and Chief Operating Officer we well as the CFO where I work has his MBA as well. It isn't needed, but the level of education and intelligence makes it so he "fits" better with the people he interacts with. He doesn't take calls for them, but he handles their calendars, coordinates TONS of events, makes travel arrangements, prepares presentations, etc. He's more of a project coordinator than a secretary.

[Renee in NC]

Our unemployment rate is about 5%. We have tons of jobs and not enough people to fill them, and most of them require no degree and pay well. Wyo oil field workers can earn a really decent wage with no degree. It seems like people need to be willing or able to move to the jobs from some of these areas. A 20% unemployment rate sounds terrifying.

 

 

And it is VERY cold there. I am not averse to relocating, but I am VERY averse to below 0 temps and more than 3-4 inches of snow. I lived in Iowa for a winter, and I am adamant that I won't do that again. I can grow a garden here from March to November, so we won't starve. We might freeze to death there! :laugh:

[Mama Geek]

What's scary is that I really don't see a good job market anywhere.

 

Check this out.

http://www.theatlant...-charts/273339/

 

 

At least for now the oil and gas industry is doing well for both trades and engineering/design.

[FaithManor]

Our unemployment rate is about 5%. We have tons of jobs and not enough people to fill them, and most of them require no degree and pay well. Wyo oil field workers can earn a really decent wage with no degree. It seems like people need to be willing or able to move to the jobs from some of these areas. A 20% unemployment rate sounds terrifying.

 

 

 

It is! The official unemployment rate is only about 15% for the county which is hideous enough, but since they don't count those whose unemployment has run out and still are out of work, the number is closer to 21% according to the county commissioners. That is another fault of the "numbers" released by the feds...once a person's unemployment runs out, they stop tracking them...doesn't mean they are working, they just don't have to report anymore. U of M economists that I've talked with still believe the national average is running well over 12%. Plus, the other aspect that isn't considered is underemployment. Some will find a job, but only get part-time. So, the whole method of tracking employment needs to be upgraded if we want to be honest about the employment environment. It is no great thing to have once had a full time job with benefits and then get nothing but 22 hrs. at minimum wage. But, it happens a lot.

 

Teri, I am sorry I offended you. I only meant to illustrate that answers that work in one part of the country will not work necessarily in others. I am glad Atlanta is booming, it's nice to hear when you live in a bleak state that there is hope somewhere else. The interesting thing about this is that the "official" take from economists up here is that unless your kid has an engineering or astrophysics degree so you can send them to Huntsville, don't have them move to the south to find work because there isn't any. The advice has been Southwest, East Coast, and Pacific Northwest. So, that's the outlook we've been given. It may not be at all accurate.

 

Since you know jobs in the trades are available, I will pass this along to four men in our church that are in pretty dire straits.

 

As for moving, most of the people I know that are unemployed are very willing. They are losing their houses anyway; there isn't anything to salvage. But, I have met people who would refuse to do it. Lately, that's been pretty rare, most would go any place if it meant getting back on their feet again.

 

Faith

[Wildcat]

.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

It is! The official unemployment rate is only about 15% for the county which is hideous enough, but since they don't count those whose unemployment has run out and still are out of work, the number is closer to 21% according to the county commissioners. That is another fault of the "numbers" released by the feds...once a person's unemployment runs out, they stop tracking them...doesn't mean they are working, they just don't have to report anymore.

 

What you stated is 100% false. The unemployment rate is not based on whether or not someone si receiving unemployment benefits. The unemployment rate is an estimate based on a survey conducted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. While there are issues with how employment/unemployment is determined within that survey (example: underemployment is not captured and potential workers who are no longer seeking jobs are not counted) there is ZERO connection to unemployment benefits. A report on jobless claims is released with the unemployment rate as part of the press release, as that figure is useful in determining unemployment trends, but they are not the same statistics.

 

U of M economists that I've talked with still believe the national average is running well over 12%. Plus, the other aspect that isn't considered is underemployment. Some will find a job, but only get part-time. So, the whole method of tracking employment needs to be upgraded if we want to be honest about the employment environment. It is no great thing to have once had a full time job with benefits and then get nothing but 22 hrs. at minimum wage. But, it happens a lot.

 

Most economists agree that the "real" unemployment rate generally runs higher than any figure released by the BLS. However, the BLS is responsible for providing a figure that can be consistently measured over time, which is why it uses low, but very clear, criteria for measuring unemployment. If the standard becomes trying to determine who is/is not underemployed then we will end up with a number that is not consistently measured over time.

[stripe]

What you stated is 100% false. The unemployment rate is not based on whether or not someone si receiving unemployment benefits. The unemployment rate is an estimate based on a survey conducted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

 

This is true, BUT states use unemployment figures, though, and then not everyone who's unemployed collects ûnemployment insurance.

 

I think most people agree that the economy is in worse condition than an unemployment number ALONE indicates.

 

I honestly am shocked at the number of establishments that believe one should be delighted with a $9/hr a job by an experienced professional, but maybe this is a regional thing. Apparently in the south, people get even less.

[FaithManor]

What you stated is 100% false. The unemployment rate is not based on whether or not someone si receiving unemployment benefits. The unemployment rate is an estimate based on a survey conducted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. While there are issues with how employment/unemployment is determined within that survey (example: underemployment is not captured and potential workers who are no longer seeking jobs are not counted) there is ZERO connection to unemployment benefits. A report on jobless claims is released with the unemployment rate as part of the press release, as that figure is useful in determining unemployment trends, but they are not the same statistics.

 

 

 

Most economists agree that the "real" unemployment rate generally runs higher than any figure released by the BLS. However, the BLS is responsible for providing a figure that can be consistently measured over time, which is why it uses low, but very clear, criteria for measuring unemployment. If the standard becomes trying to determine who is/is not underemployed then we will end up with a number that is not consistently measured over time.

 

Okay, sorry for the mistake. I was going on what was explained at the last county commissioner's meeting and assumed they knew how the federal rate is determined. They are obviously in the dark, but I do think they have a very real bead on the state rate and the county rate.

 

Faith

[ChocolateReignRemix]

This is true, BUT states use unemployment figures, though, and then not everyone who's unemployed collects ûnemployment insurance.

 

Explain further, as I am not sure what you are trying to say.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Okay, sorry for the mistake. I was going on what was explained at the last county commissioner's meeting and assumed they knew how the federal rate is determined. They are obviously in the dark, but I do think they have a very real bead on the state rate and the county rate.

 

Faith

 

Localities generally do, and should, have a better idea of the unemployment rate for their area.

[stripe]

Explain further, as I am not sure what you are trying to say.

This is true, BUT states use unemployment figures, though, and then not everyone who's unemployed collects ûnemployment insurance.

 

I think most people agree that the economy is in worse condition than an unemployment number ALONE indicates.

 

I honestly am shocked at the number of establishments that believe one should be delighted with a $9/hr a job by an experienced professional, but maybe this is a regional thing. Apparently in the south, people get even less.

I am saying the following:

1- states use other methods than the federal govt

See for instance Illinois:

The national unemployment rate is produced through a monthly household survey conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau for the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. The statewide unemployment rate is not calculated directly from the national household survey because the sample size at the state level is too small to produce reliable estimates. Instead, statewide unemployment statistics are derived indirectly through BLS-designed time series models.

Unemployment rates for metropolitan areas, counties and cities are developed through a complex, multi-step process that includes a variety of data inputs, such as total non-farm employment estimates, unemployment insurance claims, population and employment data from the Census Bureau and employment and unemployment controls used to adjust for groups not covered by the Unemployment Insurance system.

@ http://www.ides.illinois.gov/page.aspx?item=2434

 

2- there are many people whose situation is not simply unemployed/desperate for work OR employed/happy, including the retired, housewives, housewives/students/others who have been out of the market who want to work but don't bother due to hopelessness, people who are working part time when they want to be fulltime, and people who have settled for a crummy FT job rather than be unemployed. Therefore, a single percentage of the unemployed does not tell the whole story, and, for most everyone I know, financial life is not great.

 

If one is unemployed for >52 weeks, one is apparently removed from the labor force, and part time workers are counted as employed. See this analysis at Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2012/10/16/why-jack-welch-has-a-point-about-unemployment-numbers/

 

3- There is no shortage of jobs that don't pay very well.

Re geographic distribution

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_county_household_median_income_2009.png

 

[Aelwydd]

Coming into this discussion late, but I agree with the sentiments of several others here. Namely, yes, it is counterproductive in many ways for every single person to be pushed to get a college degree. Also, that this is a sad commentary on the quality of high school graduates.

 

 

In my field, a few years ago, one could get a position by virtue of military experience or prior experience in the field. Now, even having either of those qualifications, one must have at least an Associate's degree. The job I do involves remote monitoring and troubleshooting of telecommunications equipment. It's a very tech-intensive position, but it's not something that most people couldn't learn on the job. In fact, my undergrad is in different field, so for all intents and purposes, I was coming to it with little related experience.

 

But I got a good paying job, with a large tech company, with a lot of benefits and growing opportunities for mainly two reasons:

 

1. I was recommended to the manager by a relative who works in the company. I knew somebody on the inside.

 

2. I have a B.S. It didn't matter, really, that it was in an unrelated field. All that mattered was that I have a degree.

 

There are a few people I know who I've really wanted to help get on with this company, but every time, even though one had SEVEN YEARS' worth of directly related experience, my manager said no degree, no go.

 

The other thing that I wanted to bring up is with the present economy, I think that no matter what field your degree is in, if you are not very adaptable and flexible in how you define the reaches of your field, the job prospects out there will be very limited. I enjoy my present position and find it rewarding and interesting, with lots of room for personal and professional growth. However, it is not my passion. My passion is public health, and without having at least a Master's degree in the field, my best job prospects might be a 32,000K year job. Maybe. Even those are being fought over by more experienced people with a graduate degree.

 

I've chosen pragmatism over passion. Most days, I feel that's a good choice and the higher salaries in this field means I'm better able to financially support us (I'm the sole wage earner in our family). But some days, especially when there is a discussion among coworkers about some health-related reason, and one or the other turns to me and says,"You should be a nurse!" or, "Why aren't you working in a hospital?" makes me a little sad.

 

However, I still continue to read and educate myself in my interests, and I'm thinking about volunteering at a local health clinic, in order to give myself that outlet. Or, maybe volunteering again at a stable that serves special needs children and adults (my other great love is horses!).

 

I guess the point of all this is, where there used to be a relatively straight line between education and profession, now it's very nebulous. There doesn't seem to be a strong connection anymore with what one studies, and what one actually becomes employed to do.