Pope Benedict resigned...

[DianeW88]

I am a former Catholic, and I can't see any reason to suspect anything but health issues for his resignation. It is shocking, but the man is not required to make public the results of every physical examination or condition he may be suffering from. Perhaps he's been diagnosed with Alzheimer's...not at all uncommon, given 50% of people over the age of 85 have it to some degree. Combined with other physical maladies, I can imagine that he might feel unfit to perform his duties. As an LDS person, our church prophet is there for life, so resignation would not occur, no matter his health status, but the Catholic church obviously has an "out" for papal leaders who choose it. I think it might be unsettling to Catholics because it's tinged with a tiny bit of "well, wouldn't God help him with his role?" and "If he's the Pope, doesn't he have enough faith to continue on in spite of health difficulties, as other church leaders have?" Those would have been my concerns if I were still a practicing Catholic. And I remember 1978 (I was 13) and the three different popes that year. It was a challenge for many of my family and friends. Lots of adjustments. :grouphug: to anyone who is struggling with this decision.

[MBM]

 

 

Opus Dei is not traditionally known as super-traditional liturgically. They do like beautiful liturgy and Latin but there are definitely more "extreme" Catholics out there.

 

The entire rite of the Mass was redone after Vatican II. Benedict XVI re-instated the "old" Mass as a licit option (you needed an indult to say it previously). They are now called the "Ordinary Form" and the "Extraordinary Form". The Ordinary Form is often called the "Novus Ordo" and the Extraordinary Form is sometimes called the "Tridentine Mass" or "Traditional Latin Mass".

 

SOME, but not nearly all, of those who prefer the old Mass are or were in formal schism with the Catholic Church. Opus Dei is just a lay movement you can join. They typically just go to their local parishes.

 

Thank you. This is very interesting. A friend of my brother (who was in the Air Force Academy!) became a priest and I know he says the Tridentine Mass. Is that what you mean by the old Mass?

[jrn]

I don't know what all this really means in Catholic lives, but I will be praying for my Catholic friends.

[MBM]

She probably means SSPX and Lefeberites (probably spelled wrong). They are people who believe that there has not been a legitimate pope since Pius 10th, that Vat II was not a true council, that the novus ordo is not a legitimate mass, blah blah blah. Some people call them "more Catholic than the pope"; really they are protestants with smells and bells.

 

LOL! I love smells and bells!

[UrbanSue]

 

Thank you. This is very interesting. A friend of my brother (who was in the Air Force Academy!) became a priest and I know he says the Tridentine Mass. Is that what you mean by the old Mass?

 

Right. And saying the Tridentine Mass doesn't mean anything about how one views the Church. He could just be a liturgy nerd.

[Juniper]

First, (((hugs))) and prayers go out to you all and B16 right now. Secondly, I think there is wisdom in him resigning and retiring for health reasons. I know that it is probably disconcerting to some to have the media spotlight again, but it is also a wonderful opportunity for the RC to shine. Both in allowing the final wishes of B16 and in electing a new Pope. I look forward to watching this unfold and hope with all my heart that this ultimately is shown as a "win" for the RC and not another negative media piece.

[chiguirre]

 

 

I will be shocked if an American is chosen. I don't think that would be great for the worldwide church (much as I love America). Dh and I were rooting for Arinze as well but, yeah, I don't seem them choosing another old guy :)

 

 

#1 on the list of papabile I found was Marc Ouellet and #3 is an Argentine. I'd say the odds were very good that the next pope will be from the Americas.

[Violet Crown]

Opus Dei is not a Traditionalist organization.

 

The SSPX (a/k/a "Lefebvrites") DO believe that the current pope, and his predecessors, have been valid popes. They should not be confused with the various sedevacantist ("the See is empty") groups.

[Juniper]

BTW, one of my favorite Orthodox Priest's will only refer to it as the "Pope's Retirement." Not the most technically accurate, but I really like the sentiment shines through. :)

[Parrothead]

#1 on the list of papabile I found was Marc Ouellet and #3 is an Argentine. I'd say the odds were very good that the next pope will be from the Americas.

 

 

Ouellet would be good. Sandri (the Argentinean) would make things interesting with his interest in working with the EO

[higginszoo]

He's had 2 strokes and has a heart condition, and he is 85 years old, and he cleared his resignation with God first.

Before he was pope, Cardinal Ratzinger had asked the Holy Father for retirement more than once. The man is a scholar and a musician and had dedicated his life to serving his Church. I don't think any faithful bishops want the job of pope. I hope he is able to end his life quietly and with dignity and perhaps have enough mental faculties to have a bit of the retirement he has so long wanted.

It's not exactly a low-stress job, and he did express some reluctance in taking it, but felt that he owed it to John Paul II and to the Church to finish what was started, tie up loose ends, but he really wanted to go back to Bavaria and end his days quietly with his books, and had expressed that sentiment 10+ years back.

Yes. I heard his doctor forbid travel; a big deal for the pope.

Up until John Paul II, it was more the tradition for people to go to the pope than for the pope to go to the people, so while I believe that papal travel is a positive innovation, it's not essential. I am hoping for/looking forward to youthful energy like what John Paul II brought, but we shall see how the Spirit moves the electors.

[Liz CA]

I am not catholic so I am not up on all the rules, but I didn't know a pope could resign. I thought it was a "til death" kind of job. I am very surprised.

 

 

Yes, this is new to me too. I don't think in all my years I have ever heard of a pope resign.

There has been some talk that he wants to live at his home in Bavaria for the time he has left.

 

Living in Rome, fulfilling the countless duties as pope at the age of 85 would seem miraculous if he was any other man than the pope.

Perhaps he is just the first one to acknowledge his limits.

[TammyS]

One big reason that this is so unusual is because our times are unusual. Historically, people did not live long in highly infirm conditions the way that they can now. Previously, an 85 year old man in poor health could be expected to die within months or a year. Now, he could go on for a loooooooong time without dying. And if the problem is something like Alzhiemer's.....that can go on for a couple of decades if the body is in otherwise reasonable condition. Bad for everyone. JP2 was sick for a long time, but his worst was really only at the end and he never was very off mentally.

[UrbanSue]

Yes, this is new to me too. I don't think in all my years I have ever heard of a pope resign.

There has been some talk that he wants to live at his home in Bavaria for the time he has left.

 

Living in Rome, fulfilling the countless duties as pope at the age of 85 would seem miraculous if he was any other man than the pope.

Perhaps he is just the first one to acknowledge his limits.

 

This is only the sixth pope since 1939 which isn't a very large sample size :)

 

But it is unusual--it's the first time in over 600 years.

[I.Dup.]

One big reason that this is so unusual is because our times are unusual. Historically, people did not live long in highly infirm conditions the way that they can now. Previously, an 85 year old man in poor health could be expected to die within months or a year. Now, he could go on for a loooooooong time without dying. And if the problem is something like Alzhiemer's.....that can go on for a couple of decades if the body is in otherwise reasonable condition. Bad for everyone. JP2 was sick for a long time, but his worst was really only at the end and he never was very off mentally.

 

This is very true. And honestly? I'm not sure it's in our best interest to live for Soooooooo long. I don't want to live to be 100 only to spend the last 10 or 20 years infirm.

[Little Nyssa]

Condolences to our Catholic friends! I respect his decision to resign very much-- it is not easy to admit when you are not strong enough to do your work.

My only hope is that his successor will continue the work of reconciliation with the Orthodox, and all other Christians too, of course.

And, I think it would be interesting if the next Pope came from outside Europe-- Africa, for instance.

[TammyS]

And, I think it would be interesting if the next Pope came from outside Europe-- Africa, for instance.

 

I think there is a very good chance we will see the next pope come from South America.

 

What would really interesting (though unlikely) is if it were one of the secret cardinals in China.

[TammyS]

 

I don't want to live to be 100 only to spend the last 10 or 20 years infirm.

 

If you take good care of yourself, and are lucky, you could see 100 and be in relatively good condition. A friend is currently visiting her mother, 101, who LIVES ALONE. She's slow and I'm not sure it's a great idea for her to be alone, but she manages. She lives in her house and does things for herself. Wow.

[Parrothead]

I think there is a very good chance we will see the next pope come from South America.

 

What would really interesting (though unlikely) is if it were one of the secret cardinals in China.

They would have to get him out of there before announcing the election.

[Janie Grace]

I'm not Catholic, but I didn't think "scandal." I actually thought that I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often, given the responsibilities of the job and the limitations of old age. (Really, how many 85+ year-olds are doing anything but living a quiet life?) I really respect him for honestly evaluating his service and being humble enough to make room for someone more physically/cognitively capable.

[magnificat]

B16 is an exceptionally holy, wise, and humble man of God. I feel so blessed to have him as our Holy Father!

 

I appreciate that the "scandal" talk has quieted down in this thread - thank you.

 

"Come Holy Spirit. . ."

[Liz CA]

 

This is only the sixth pope since 1939 which isn't a very large sample size :)

 

But it is unusual--it's the first time in over 600 years.

 

Well, I do remember a span of one or two years when we had three popes and they all died within months of being chosen.

Evidently, they were not in the best of health (or the stress of the position undid them) and they did not resign.

I thought it's unusual...and I feel old sometimes so I make statements like that. I really wanted to say ..."in all my born days" like most of L. M. Montgomery's characters do. :laugh:

[UrbanSue]

 

Well, I do remember a span of one or two years when we had three popes and they all died within months of being chosen.

Evidently, they were not in the best of health (or the stress of the position undid them) and they did not resign.

I thought it's unusual...and I feel old sometimes so I make statements like that. I really wanted to say ..."in all my born days" like most of L. M. Montgomery's characters do. :laugh:

 

Paul VI died after a reign of over ten years. Then John Paul I died after being pope for about a month. Then John Paul II was elected. So there were three popes that year but only one died after a short reign.

[Trish]

This is what I'm trying to say. Why be concerned about it, other than for the health of your Pope?

 

Because the comet's on its way in?

[UrbanSue]

 

Well, I do remember a span of one or two years when we had three popes and they all died within months of being chosen.

Evidently, they were not in the best of health (or the stress of the position undid them) and they did not resign.

I thought it's unusual...and I feel old sometimes so I make statements like that. I really wanted to say ..."in all my born days" like most of L. M. Montgomery's characters do. :laugh:

 

 

I know what you mean about feeling old (well, I'm not old so maybe it's more that I can imagine to know what you mean). It just always cracks me up when journalists say stuff like, "This is the first presidential election that was x,y,z since 2000!" Uh . . . that was only three elections ago. Not an impressive statistic. I'm just on a mission today to insert accurate information wherever I can :) It's school break week here. Maybe I should go read The Pope Who Quit and have some more coffee. :)

[Tiramisu]

Condolences to our Catholic friends! I respect his decision to resign very much-- it is not easy to admit when you are not strong enough to do your work.

My only hope is that his successor will continue the work of reconciliation with the Orthodox, and all other Christians too, of course.

And, I think it would be interesting if the next Pope came from outside Europe-- Africa, for instance.

 

Amen to that, sister! :grouphug:

 

And I'll add reconciliation with Pope Pius X Society, too!

[annlaura]

My prayers are with all Catholics at this time. My SIL shared this with me, and I found it interesting: http://on-this-rock.blogspot.com/2011/12/why-it-might-be-good-if-pope-benedict.html.

[sillymommy]

He was really meant to be an "interim" pope, with not as long a reign (is that the right word?) as JPII.

 

Odds are we'll have a post-Vatican II pope.

 

Lots of opportunity for Church history over breakfast today :)

 

 

As a faithful Catholic, I thought the same thing when he was elected. I wondered who was "on deck," but not yet ready to take the Papacy. I'm very curious who it will be & praying for those making the decision.

[Parrothead]

My prayers are with all Catholics at this time. My SIL shared this with me, and I found it interesting: http://on-this-rock....-benedict.html.

 

The link didn't quite work for me.

 

Okay how about this one?

 

Pope Emeritus will be a cool title to have.

[aggieamy]

I'm curious as to why. There have been 6 Popes in my lifetime, 5 of them while I still called myself Catholic. Popes, like presidents, come and go.

 

 

I can only speak for myself but I liked JPII and B16 so I don't like seeing either of them go. I wonder how we'll be able to find someone as awesome as either one of them. And there's my fear of change. Guess I'll just have to leave it up to the Big Guy to take care of His Church.

[katilac]

I looked at the short list, and laughed pretty hard at the fact that Dolan's "youth" at 63 is seen as a potential disadvantage.

[annlaura]

The link didn't quite work for me.

 

Okay how about this one?

 

Pope Emeritus will be a cool title to have.

 

 

Thanks. :)

[TranquilMind]

Wow. I didn't know my joke that the neighbors had elected a new pope (based on the plume of smoke coming out of their chimney) on Saturday was prophetic.

 

I should learn to rein in my powers. ;)

 

Yes, it's all your fault! ;)

 

Seriously, I do wonder what's up. It might be age, but they usually hang on until the last moment.

[AimeeM]

 

Yes, it's all your fault! ;)

 

Seriously, I do wonder what's up. It might be age, but they usually hang on until the last moment.

On another Catholic loop I belong to, it appears that Pope Benedict had been asking for retirement many years prior (to the papacy).

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

I'm so excited my oldest is old enough to really understand and care to follow this. I told him this morning, you will remember this time for the rest of your life:)

[Candid]

I'm not Catholic, but I didn't think "scandal." I actually thought that I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often, given the responsibilities of the job and the limitations of old age. (Really, how many 85+ year-olds are doing anything but living a quiet life?) I really respect him for honestly evaluating his service and being humble enough to make room for someone more physically/cognitively capable.

 

 

 

I agree, how wonderful to set this new precedent that the pope can and will step down when his health holds him back. I have come up with my own rules for aging (no complaining about not understanding various things at church unless I've had my hearing checked, for instance); it is nice to see a man doing the same thing.

[Ellie]

Guess I'll just have to leave it up to the Big Guy to take care of His Church.

 

 

As He has been doing for the past 2000 years. :-)

[Renee in NC]

No, not Opus Dei. Just people who would rather have TLM over NO and a few other things.

 

:iagree: My brother and SIL are some of these people, and they are not Opus Dei - just devout Catholics who prefer Latin and a more traditional Church.

[Parrothead]

 

:iagree:My brother and SIL are some of these people, and they are not Opus Dei - just devout Catholics who prefer Latin and a more traditional Church.

 

Nothing wrong with that.

 

I do find that the people who prefer the TLM are rather vocal. But then again, discontent people are usually the most vocal in any situation or group.

[unsinkable]

 

 

Nothing wrong with that.

 

I do find that the people who prefer the TLM are rather vocal. But then again, discontent people are usually the most vocal in any situation or group.

 

Sometimes discontent people are two-faced...sweetly vocal in one situation and and bitterly vocal in another.

[elizabeth]

Opus Dei is not traditionally known as super-traditional liturgically. They do like beautiful liturgy and Latin but there are definitely more "extreme" Catholics out there.

 

The entire rite of the Mass was redone after Vatican II. Benedict XVI re-instated the "old" Mass as a licit option (you needed an indult to say it previously). They are now called the "Ordinary Form" and the "Extraordinary Form". The Ordinary Form is often called the "Novus Ordo" and the Extraordinary Form is sometimes called the "Tridentine Mass" or "Traditional Latin Mass".

 

SOME, but not nearly all, of those who prefer the old Mass are or were in formal schism with the Catholic Church. Opus Dei is just a lay movement you can join. They typically just go to their local parishes.

...just a lay movement you can join. They typically just go to their local parishes. Honesty please. They do not just attend their local parishes. They are schismatic, dangerous and have all the characteristics of a cult as defined by contemporary theologians . I could not let this pass without a strong response. Just because they are not SSPX does not mean they are akin to The Knights of Columbus . Hardly. They are dangerous. This is for those who are not in the know. http://www.opus-info..._Dangerous_Sect

 

If these pages are not sufficient to make the unwary quite concerned then so be it. I have done my due diligence, have you?

http://www.opus-info.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

[Violet Crown]

When I was a kid growing up in Texas, the Catholic Church was a dangerous cult. Now only parts of it are. I suppose that's progress.

[UrbanSue]

...just a lay movement you can join. They typically just go to their local parishes. Honesty please. They do not just attend their local parishes. They are schismatic, dangerous and have all the characteristics of a cult as defined by contemporary theologians . I could not let this pass without a strong response. Just because they are not SSPX does not mean they are akin to The Knights of Columbus . Hardly. They are dangerous. This is for those who are not in the know. http://www.opus-info..._Dangerous_Sect

 

If these pages are not sufficient to make the unwary quite concerned then so be it. I have done my due diligence, have you?

http://www.opus-info...title=Main_Page

 

 

 

Are you Catholic? Are you a former member of Opus Dei?

 

I am not and never have been a member of Opus Dei though I have attended a few events off and on over the years. My husband and I have many, many friends in Opus Dei. They are among the most normal, faithful, well-adjusted people we know and not a one shows any signs of being in a dangerous cult. I really don't claim to be an expert on the organization and I am well aware that it is controversial.

 

Anyway, an argument about it is not really relevant to this thread. It only came up in the first place because someone confused them with a very "traditionalist" liturgical group. I was merely trying to address the differences with respect to liturgical practice.

[iwka]

It's not resignation, but abdication. And he is doing it for the love of the Church, not because of any scandals. JP2 showed us how to suffer in modern world, B16 is showing us true humility.

"Malachi prophecies" are 1. private revelation 2. not well documented, and certainly confusing after certain point (accurate to a certain point only).

[elizabeth]

 

 

Are you Catholic? Are you a former member of Opus Dei?

 

I am not and never have been a member of Opus Dei though I have attended a few events off and on over the years. My husband and I have many, many friends in Opus Dei. They are among the most normal, faithful, well-adjusted people we know and not a one shows any signs of being in a dangerous cult. I really don't claim to be an expert on the organization and I am well aware that it is controversial.

 

Anyway, an argument about it is not really relevant to this thread. It only came up in the first place because someone confused them with a very "traditionalist" liturgical group. I was merely trying to address the differences with respect to liturgical practice.

 

You have relatively low post count and so I surmise you are new to the WTM boards. That being noted I will introduce myself briefly. It is nice to meet you and I hope you find wonderful content and friendship among the many wonderful people here. I am Catholic, Jesuit taught for undergraduate and law school. It has been my privilege to see two former OD leave and have normal lives post OD. They are good faithful Catholics and so fortunate to have left what for them was toxic. That is all I can say. So we are on opposite sides of the table on that issue. I wish you well.

[Renee in NC]

 

Right. And saying the Tridentine Mass doesn't mean anything about how one views the Church. He could just be a liturgy nerd.

 

That would be my brother. :laugh:

[MBM]

I live in an area where Opus Dei has been strong for over 50 years. I do not like the secrecy and exclusivity. I'm sure there are some really good, decent OD people but after seeing what I've seen for the past 15+ years -- trying to avoid the details here -- I know it's not for me. I'll leave it at that.

[Tiramisu]

I only attended a few OD "events" many years ago. Since then, I have known others who are not OD, but attend their meetings with some regularity. They are all normal moms. My contact with actual OD members has been limited but I have found them orthodox in their faith. I have not found a cult like mentality at all. Rather I have been impressed with their openness, their level of education, their involvement in the world--and that they seek to serve God in all that they do, in even the little things of life.

 

I do know a former OD member who left after many, many years. She does not criticize the organization at all, even though she came to realize it wasn't a good match for her.

 

The founder of OD, Jose Maria Escriva, was canonized in 2002.

 

I'm sure OD is much like the world and the Church in general, made up of imperfect people, to varying degrees.

[UrbanSue]

You have relatively low post count and so I surmise you are new to the WTM boards. That being noted I will introduce myself briefly. It is nice to meet you and I hope you find wonderful content and friendship among the many wonderful people here. I am Catholic, Jesuit taught for undergraduate and law school. It has been my privilege to see two former OD leave and have normal lives post OD. They are good faithful Catholics and so fortunate to have left what for them was toxic. That is all I can say. So we are on opposite sides of the table on that issue. I wish you well.

 

 

Yes, I am relatively new here--especially with regard to posting. I realize, now that it's morning and I've had some coffee that my questioning might have sounded snippy which wasn't my intention. Thanks for introducing yourself.

 

I'm sorry your friends had a bad experience with the organization. We have known people involved in OD in four or five different parts of the country. The different places do seem to have different characters. We have been fortunate to see OD as nothing but a positive thing for those we know who are involved. I don't think it's fair to categorically call it a dangerous cult but I respect that you know people who feel damaged by the organization.

[chiguirre]

DH went to an OD high school and came out perfectly normal and completely irreligious. If they're a cult, they're a really incompetent cult.