Voting and Identification.....

[Education Explorers]

Here is a link to a national map which shows the state by state voter identification requirements. http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx

 

I think the map has some very interesting patterns. Obviously from the heated responses on this issue, it can become quite political. The voter ID requirements map reflects some of the same patterns that the political pundits have been projecting for election results, etc. It is kind of interesting.

[Tammyla]

This morning was the first time that I was not asked for an id. I had to sign, but the lady didn't mention id.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I can tell this is a political topic because I keep typing up five-paragraph essays and deleting them because I'm getting too worked up about it.

 

Whatever happened to the politics ban?

[a27mom]

For those that are saying voter fraud is not common but only allowing proof to be after the fact occurrence of voter fraud:

 

In states where no ID is required, and of course ballots are secret it is nearly impossible to prosecute voter fraud after the fact.

 

There are many documented cases of schemes to commit voter fraud before the fact. (Google it) The idea that no one ever succeeded with one of these schemes and was not caught seems a little far fetched.

 

It is not logical that people would illegally stoop to disenfranchisement, but not illegally stoop to voter fraud, when it is so easy in some places. And interestingly it is the same vulnerable groups that are targeted with voter fraud schemes.

 

FWIW I don't think voter fraud is widespread enough to affect national/ statewide elections as a rule. It is the local elections frequently decided by a few hundred votes that are most vulnerable. Then they later affect national & statewide elections.

 

The idea that it rarely occurs, when politicians are convicted/indicted/under investigation for all sorts of illegal activities on an ongoing basis, is illogical in my experience

Edited November 6, 2012 by a27mom

[AnnaM]

That map still shows that Texas is non-id, but I am always asked for ID and a friend of mine was denied voting today because her voters registration transfer didn't "go through". I would have thought that if we didnt need to prove our residence then it wouldn't matter that she wasn't properly registered.

[Slartibartfast]

That map still shows that Texas is non-id, but I am always asked for ID and a friend of mine was denied voting today because her voters registration transfer didn't "go through". I would have thought that if we didnt need to prove our residence then it wouldn't matter that she wasn't properly registered.

 

She should ask about a provisional ballot.

[Georgiana Daniels]

I can tell this is a political topic because I keep typing up five-paragraph essays and deleting them because I'm getting too worked up about it.

 

Whatever happened to the politics ban?

 

The moderator is standing in line to vote :D

[mytwomonkeys]

i live in FL & i had to show my driver's license. they didn't give it back until the compared my signature to that on my license. it wasn't a biggie to me though. in the past, i don't even remember if they asked for it:001_smile:

[K&Rs Mom]

I had to show driver's license even though the lady knew me. It's been like that for a long time here - not sure if it's state law or county policy.

[Momof3Maidens]

I can tell this is a political topic because I keep typing up five-paragraph essays and deleting them because I'm getting too worked up about it.

 

Whatever happened to the politics ban?

 

I really didn't mean for this to get heated....Sorry everyone.

 

Shucks, hope I don't get banned!

[Woodhaven]

This is the first year I haven't had to show ID. In fact they said, no, you don't need the picture ID, just your voter's registration card. I didn't have to sign anything.

 

A current bill or pay stub would also be enough. Huh?? Anyone could have voted in my place if they were of a mind to do so.

 

I guess it bothered me that I didn't have to show a picture ID.

[nmoira]

For those that are saying voter fraud is not common but only allowing proof to be after the fact occurrence of voter fraud:

 

In states where no ID is required, and of course ballots are secret it is nearly impossible to prosecute voter fraud after the fact.

 

There are many documented cases of schemes to commit voter fraud before the fact. (Google it) The idea that no one ever succeeded with one of these schemes and was not caught seems a little far fetched.

 

It is not logical that people would illegally stoop to disenfranchisement, but not illegally stoop to voter fraud, when it is so easy in some places. And interestingly it is the same vulnerable groups that are targeted with voter fraud schemes.

 

FWIW I don't think voter fraud is widespread enough to affect national/ statewide elections as a rule. It is the local elections frequently decided by a few hundred votes that are most vulnerable. Then they later affect national & statewide elections.

 

The idea that it rarely occurs, when politicians are convicted/indicted/under investigation for all sorts of illegal activities on an ongoing basis, is illogical in my experience

 

No, not "Google it.” What generally comes up are allegations that have been repeated so often some take them to be fact. Please provide citations.

 

And please don't forget that whether one votes or not is not only recorded, but is also a public record. Don't you think there would be more people showing up at the polls only to find out "they" had already voted, or be investigated after the fact (if the check is not done at the polling place)?

 

The difference between the two things you are equating is that there is actual evidence one is taking place, and that there's not more of an uproar is a national shame. I want every eligible person's vote counted, and I don't think anyone in the US should have to jump through unreasonable hoops or strand in line more than half an hour to do so. My experience scrutineering in Canada is so radically different from how I things done in many jurisdictions in the US that I can't begin to compare them without hyperventilating.

Edited November 6, 2012 by nmoira

[jenL]

I was not asked for ID. I just signed next to my name in a book.

 

Same here.

[Pippen]

No ID here. We are required to state our name and address and our signature must be exactly as the name we registered with (including initials).

 

I was told by one of the workers today that a lot of people have their identification out and ready anyway.

[TravelingChris]

Here in Al, you have to show a photo id but they will issue provisional ballots for those without them.

 

As to voter fraud, it definitely occurs. In NY, in the 2010 elections, there was voter fraud in some city other than NYC or Buffalo, and there were convictions. The way it was found was that someone who hadn't voted in other off presidential elections for years and years decided to go vote and someone had already voted. The complaint led to an investigation and they found more cases of vote fraud.

 

Here in Al, a congressman lost a primary election due to vote fraud- how did we know- there were more votes cast than people registered to vote. That same thing has happened in some major American cities. There haven't been prosecutions because it is hard to get evidence. But you know someone is committing fraud if there are more votes than registrations.

 

I support photo ID laws but would make them easier to get (by increasing places where you could get one, not decreasing requirements of identification) and also would give an exception for photo iD for elderly people or I would make Medicare cards be photo ID cards- which actually would help cut down on Medicare fraud too.

[Spy Car]

I disagree with voter ID laws. Voter fraud is practically unheard of and it would disenfranchise more voters than it would prevent any fraud.

 

I disagree with anything that is intended to prevent citizens from voting, which many voting ID laws ARE.

 

This is a political discussion IMO.

 

:iagree:

 

Bill

[PeacefulChaos]

they are not talking about your voter card. They are talking about picture ID, like driver's license.

Ah, yes, after reading through the other responses I see that.

I still don't know how I feel about it. On one hand, I consider my voter card to be adequate. On the other hand, I would hate for voter fraud to become rampant because someone could walk in and say they are me.

I really don't think there is any perfect answer. I can see where photo IDs would be great, but I can see where having to go get one could be difficult for some (though I know of very few people who don't have some form of photo ID personally, in some of the other posts I have read I can see where situations would arise where someone may not, in fact, have one.)

This is the thing. First, no actual problem in the first place...it just is NOT happening people. There is no proof of it. And certainly not enough to influence an election. However, there ARE enough people without ID to change the course of an election, if they can't vote. People like the elderly, who have moved, lost their birth certificate, and can't get an ID from the state without one. These are not people with computer access that can track down the cerk of the court or health department or whatever across the country that may have their birth certificate, IF they can still get it. Not to mention even if they track it down they have to pay for it. Or the poor, that don't have a ride to the health department, even if it is local, to get a copy, then another ride to go get the ID. Or the working class that can't afford to take a day off work to go track down and wait in line for their birth certificate and then ID. (it can take HOURS for both here). PUt all those impediments together and there are people that will NOT be able to realistically vote. And that is wrong. It goes against everything I believe in. And all this to stop voter fraud that has no actual documentation of happening?

I don't think it's quite that hard. I don't know any elderly people who don't have computer access - there is a library with free internet in town. Often times you can just call the county you were born in and they can send you a form to fill out. My birth certificate isn't the original, but it certainly wasn't difficult to get a new one. I don't recall it costing anything, either - maybe $10, tops?

While it could still pose a difficulty for a small fraction of people (those who have no family members to help them do it and live somewhere with no internet access nearby) I still don't see how it would be that incredibly difficult.

That said, I'm still not sure it's necessary. :tongue_smilie:

I think it is a hot topic, but I don't think it's anymore political than say abortion. It's just a hot topic.

 

:iagree:

I don't really have strong feelings about it either way, and didn't realize that people did. :)

[busymotherof4]

Here is an article written by my Mom's cousin. It explains how requiring legal ID can be a problem.

http://www.minnpost.com/community-voices/2012/05/voter-id-we-dont-see-need

[6packofun]

Yes, free, but what about proving citizenship to GET the I.D.? That creates another "hardship", but every citizen in this country should (IMO) have either a copy of their birth certificate or a SS card. It will just go round and round because really at the heart of it is that many people think it's too harsh to make people prove that they are a citizen who can legally vote in this country.

[Element]

I've never had to show my registration card or any kind of identification. They just ask for my name and signature. I live in a Mayberryesque district though. I wouldn't mind having to show ID, but I'm not terribly concerned about not having to show it either.

[Jpoy85]

to update as i just returned from voting. I was asked for my ID and I told them about the state for my ID and so I sad i had proof of my address. She said as long as my ID and Utility Bill had the same name and my utility bill at least had my current address, i was fine.

 

One lady next to me even brought her bank statement.

[Heidi]

Of course I am not being sarcastic.

 

Is it common? Where is documentation for that?

 

 

http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html Here is some documentation, and this is just from one organization. Look how easy it was! Can you show me some documentation that voter fraud ISN'T a problem?

 

We can't require IDs though. How else would illegal aliens vote? I wonder if the UN workers who were manning the voting posts cast their ballots as well. Why not? (I'm being sarcastic)

[twoxcell]

Bothered by this......I voted today ( and have since I turned 18) and have never had to show any identification whatsoever to prove that I'm an American citizen. I have to sign my name but that's it. This REALLY concerns me, anyone else?

 

Are you required to show identification in your state?

Our state does mail in ballot so all we need is a signature. I have no idea why it would bother anyone to show ID unless they had something to hide. I have to show ID at my local zoo to use my membership. No big deal to me.

[Slartibartfast]

http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html Here is some documentation, and this is just from one organization. Look how easy it was! Can you show me some documentation that voter fraud ISN'T a problem?

 

We can't require IDs though. How else would illegal aliens vote? I wonder if the UN workers who were manning the voting posts cast their ballots as well. Why not? (I'm being sarcastic)

 

I wasn't being sarcastic, I am not sure why you are directing such venom at me. I wasn't rude, why are you being rude?

 

You linked me a site named, "rotten acorn," which would not exactly be considered unbiased.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-fraud-real-rare/story?id=17213376

Edited November 6, 2012 by Sis

[Whereneverever]

No ID, no signature here.

[curlylocks]

No ID, no signature here.

 

Same here...just show up, state your name, receive a ballot. :)

[Spy Car]

I'm bothered that some people want to suppress the vote.

 

Bill

[Heidi]

I wasn't being sarcastic, I am not sure why you are directing such venom at me. I wasn't rude, why are you being rude?

 

You linked me a site named, "rotten acorn," which would not exactly be considered unbiased.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-fraud-real-rare/story?id=17213376

 

 

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude. I am stressed; it's a big night. I was being sarcastic; I wasn't implying that you were. Sorry.

 

The site doesn't list opinions, it lists just facts, so what does it matter? Show me a site that isn't biased these days. If what is on that site isn't fact, prove it. I just did a quick google search.

 

And speaking of disenfranchisement, voter fraud provides plenty of disenfranchisement of those that are honest when we lose faith in the democratic process. Already, both sides of the table are ready to claim voter fraud if their candidate doesn't win. It seems to me voter fraud is a big problem.

 

EDITED TO ADD: I can't open that link for some reason, but it's ABC NEWS, lol, pretty biased.

Edited November 6, 2012 by hmsmith

[curlylocks]

A PP said that no one ever walked in and voted in someone else's place. Um, not true here! I went to vote in the Primary after we were married (after changing my residence to here) and someone HAD voted in my place, just an hour earlier! I was not allowed to cast my ballot. There was no such thing as a provisional ballot in those days. I was just out of luck. When it came down to the general election, I voted when the polls opened, so as to deter the previous jerk.

 

 

Disclaimer: Not trying to be snarky...

 

Is it possible that the person checking in voters marked the wrong person's name? (I've seen that happen here...it was pointed out and corrected.)

[Spy Car]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude. I am stressed; it's a big night. I was being sarcastic; I wasn't implying that you were. Sorry.

 

The site doesn't list opinions, it lists just facts, so what does it matter? Show me a site that isn't biased these days. If what is on that site isn't fact, prove it.

 

And speaking of disenfranchisement, voter fraud provides plenty of disenfranchisement of those that are honest when we lose faith in the democratic process. Already, both sides of the table are ready to claim voter fraud if their candidate doesn't win. It seems to me voter fraud is a big problem.

 

There has never been any credible study of American elections that suggests voter fraud has been an issue. It is so rare that it is virtually nonexistent. On the other hand voter suppression has a long and ugly past.

 

Bill

[PeacefulChaos]

I don't think anyone is interested in suppressing anyone, though - I honestly think that we should have to prove that we are US citizens to be able to vote.

[stripe]

There have been very few proven cases across the country of non-citizens or anyone else who's ineligible to vote, having cast a ballot. That is a fact. This hysteria that hoardes of "illegals" are voting has no basis in reality.

 

Just under half of women have a birth certificate that shows their current, legal name. So, all those women who changed their names when they got married, would have to bring a birth certificate and a marriage license with them? Or a bunch of marriage licenses and divorce decrees and everything else. And the person at the booth is supposed to be able to sort through a handful of documents, to determine what is valid?

 

As a point of interest, the government could create a free national ID, but, curiously, a certain political party/movement has been bitterly opposed to this. Sign of the devil etc. So, ... I think some consistency would help.

[curlylocks]

I don't think anyone is interested in suppressing anyone, though - I honestly think that we should have to prove that we are US citizens to be able to vote.

 

:iagree: -- that's why we have Voter Registration. ;)

[Abigail4476]

I'm bothered that some people want to suppress the vote.

 

Bill

 

I think that the vote should be limited to U.S. citizens and non-felons; how else can you do that if you don't check I.D.s or at least require people to show their voter registration cards? :001_huh:

[PeacefulChaos]

There have been very few proven cases across the country of non-citizens or anyone else who's ineligible to vote, having cast a ballot. That is a fact. This hysteria that hoardes of "illegals" are voting has no basis in reality.

 

Just under half of women have a birth certificate that shows their current, legal name. So, all those women who changed their names when they got married, would have to bring a birth certificate and a marriage license with them? Or a bunch of marriage licenses and divorce decrees and everything else.

 

As a point of interest, the government could create a free national ID, but, curiously, a certain political party/movement has been bitterly opposed to this. Sign of the devil etc. So, ... I think some consistency would help.

 

True, but I don't see any harm in a regular voter card being required for everyone to vote. You know, the free, non photo kind, printed on regular old paper that you fold a few times. :)

[PeacefulChaos]

:iagree: -- that's why we have Voter Registration. ;)

 

Agreed, but there are some on here who are saying they didn't have to show anything, at least from what I understand. That's a little odd to me...

[Abigail4476]

True, but I don't see any harm in a regular voter card being required for everyone to vote. You know, the free, non photo kind, printed on regular old paper that you fold a few times. :)

 

I have one of those, but I'm always asked for a photo I.D. instead. I think that's odd. Why have the voter card at all if I don't have to present it?

[curlylocks]

Agreed, but there are some on here who are saying they didn't have to show anything, at least from what I understand. That's a little odd to me...

 

To *register* or to *vote*?

 

(If the Registrar is following procedure, you are required to show ID when completing the Voter Registration Card.)

[Lily of the Valley]

We don't have to show ID here in Iowa. However, I would rather ID be required for proof of identity (not for proof of citizenship). I doubt it happens often, but I'm bothered by the idea that anyone could walk in and say they were "so-and-so" and be allowed to vote.

[Slartibartfast]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude. I am stressed; it's a big night. I was being sarcastic; I wasn't implying that you were. Sorry.

 

The site doesn't list opinions, it lists just facts, so what does it matter? Show me a site that isn't biased these days. If what is on that site isn't fact, prove it. I just did a quick google search.

 

And speaking of disenfranchisement, voter fraud provides plenty of disenfranchisement of those that are honest when we lose faith in the democratic process. Already, both sides of the table are ready to claim voter fraud if their candidate doesn't win. It seems to me voter fraud is a big problem.

 

Here's a link from The Wall Street Journal

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443864204577621732936167586.html

 

A study has shown that most voter fraud has occurred via absentee ballot. So...what are they going to do about that?

 

I am not going to address content on a site called, "Rotten Acorn," I don't prefer to click on such sites.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Sis

[PeacefulChaos]

To *register* or to *vote*?

 

(If the Registrar is following procedure, you are required to show ID when completing the Voter Registration Card.)

 

To vote.

Maybe I'm not clear on the procedures some have listed, but I thought one person said all they had to do was sign something and then they could go in. My understanding of this was not that it was something that they could verify signatures with, or something that already had their name on it - I took that to mean that no one was checking the name at all, but that they were just walking in, signing, and voting, in which case there is no way to check that until after the fact.

Now, that may not be what they were saying. I don't sign anything - I walk up, tell them my name and hand them my card and they check it off on the list.

[stripe]

Our state does mail in ballot so all we need is a signature. I have no idea why it would bother anyone to show ID unless they had something to hide. I have to show ID at my local zoo to use my membership. No big deal to me.

 

Some people don't have ID.

 

Or it costs money to get it. Which makes it a de facto poll tax when you have to pay in order to vite.

 

Lots of the elderly have no birth certificate or government ID. About 1 in 5 seniors have no ID. That's 8 million voters. Often they've given up driving and were born before bir certificates were common. Happened in my family. Approximately 11% of voters have no government ID. As many as 1/4 of African Americans and nearly 18% of Latinos have no ID.

[PeacefulChaos]

Some people don't have ID.

 

Or it costs money to get it. Which makes it a de facto poll tax when you have to pay in order to vite.

 

Lots of the elderly have no birth certificate or government ID. About 1 in 5 seniors have no ID. That's 8 million voters. Often they've given up driving and were born before bir certificates were common. Happened in my family. Approximately 11% of voters have no government ID. As many as 1/4 of African Americans and nearly 18% of Latinos have no ID.

 

I wonder why so many seniors have no ID whatsoever? I've never heard of that.

Seriously, those numbers baffle me. :svengo:

 

ETA: Somehow I missed the 'given up driving' and 'born before they were common' thing. When did they become common?

[curlylocks]

To vote.

Maybe I'm not clear on the procedures some have listed, but I thought one person said all they had to do was sign something and then they could go in. My understanding of this was not that it was something that they could verify signatures with, or something that already had their name on it - I took that to mean that no one was checking the name at all, but that they were just walking in, signing, and voting, in which case there is no way to check that until after the fact.

Now, that may not be what they were saying. I don't sign anything - I walk up, tell them my name and hand them my card and they check it off on the list.

 

Here one doesn't have to sign...you step up to the table, state your name, the nice lady checks you off and hands you a ballot.

 

*BUT* you do have to show ID to register -- which is how your name got on the list in the first place. (If you're not registered on Election Day, you must see the Voter Registrar, prove identity/citizenship and fill out the Registration Card before you can vote.)

[a27mom]

No, not "Google it.†What generally comes up are allegations that have been repeated so often some take them to be fact. Please provide citations.

 

And please don't forget that whether one votes or not is not only recorded, but is also a public record. Don't you think there would be more people showing up at the polls only to find out "they" had already voted, or be investigated after the fact (if the check is not done at the polling place)?

 

The difference between the two things you are equating is that there is actual evidence one is taking place, and that there's not more of an uproar is a national shame. I want every eligible person's vote counted, and I don't think anyone in the US should have to jump through unreasonable hoops or strand in line more than half an hour to do so. My experience scrutineering in Canada is so radically different from how I things done in many jurisdictions in the US that I can't begin to compare them without hyperventilating.

 

I would be interested in hearing the evidence that voter ID laws are intended to prevent people who can legally vote from voting :confused:

 

Actually I don't necessarily agree that photo ID's should be required to vote. I just don't agree that voter fraud is "unheard" of. But since I don't collect that information, and information from Internet searches are unnacceptable I will be unable to cite anything.

 

Actually nevermind. I don't think we will agree in anyway. :) I live in a state where our last 2governors are in prison, an indicted representative and a mentally ill congressman are nearly certain to win reelection. allegations of voter fraud are regular occurrences here, maybe they are not true, but I can't imagine people would follow those unenforceable laws when they don't follow enforceable ones.

 

Actually it is interesting to hear others perspectives. I honestly did not realize so many did not have ID cards. Around here almost everyone has a drivers license. Public transportation is limited. Seniors and the disabled can get ID's for free. I am required to show my ID so often I do have a hard time seeing how people function without them. It never ceases to amaze me how strong regional differences are.

 

Peace.

[Pawz4me]

A PP said that no one ever walked in and voted in someone else's place. Um, not true here! I went to vote in the Primary after we were married (after changing my residence to here) and someone HAD voted in my place, just an hour earlier! I was not allowed to cast my ballot. There was no such thing as a provisional ballot in those days. I was just out of luck. When it came down to the general election, I voted when the polls opened, so as to deter the previous jerk.

 

It's a shame that happened, but it doesn't mean fraud was involved. And that's the key -- whether an incident was fraud or human error. When the Department of Justice under Bush's administration investigated the incidence of in-person voter fraud it found that fraud was so incredibly miniscule that it essentially didn't exist. Almost every single incidence of reported in-person voter fraud was ultimately attributable to human error. No doubt photo IDs might help reduce human errors, but it has to be weighed against the numbers of voters who might be disenfranchised.

[Element]

To vote.

Maybe I'm not clear on the procedures some have listed, but I thought one person said all they had to do was sign something and then they could go in. My understanding of this was not that it was something that they could verify signatures with, or something that already had their name on it - I took that to mean that no one was checking the name at all, but that they were just walking in, signing, and voting, in which case there is no way to check that until after the fact.

Now, that may not be what they were saying. I don't sign anything - I walk up, tell them my name and hand them my card and they check it off on the list.

 

After I give them my name, I am given a card with a copy of my signature on it. I then have to sign my name below my signature. I am often told, "Wow! Your signature looks just like the one on file!" so I assume they don't really care if it matches or not. It seems pretty lax to me, but I really don't think it's a problem around here.

[Ohdanigirl]

You had to prove you were a US citizen when you registered to vote, right? Why would you need to do it again?

 

In California ID is not checked. I can tell you that having worked at polls in the past, I ran in to a few people that showed up only to learn they had already voted. :confused:

 

Personally, I do not see a problem. I want to be sure only I vote under my name.

 

Danielle