Dh and I were bystanders to a horrific event...

[Soror]

Oh I completely agree that birth trauma is dismissed. As long as your baby lived, quit your bellyaching is very much a wide spread sentiment.

 

Um no. It's not right to treat humans like meat on the block just because they are giving birth.:glare:

 

I'm just saying that I wouldn't assume everyone in medicine has that attitude.

 

If anything, I think it's worse and predominantly other women/mothers that perpetuate it.

 

Why is it that women are the ones that perpetuate this more? Is it I wonder because it hits too close to home? If we acknowledge how bad it could be for someone else we are saying that there is a possibility it could happen to us?

 

And of course you do whatever you can in the situation to help mom and baby. Of course that might not be pleasant, that is a given. Comfort is not the highest priority, obviously the life of mother and baby is. However, it doesn't mean that the mental aspect is suddenly gone. It is hopeful that everyone gets great care but as we know not everyone in medicine is a great nurse or dr just like any other field. I do think there is progress in this aspect of medicine, from what I can gather but it is a system of humans and as such it will never be perfect.

 

I was the only patient in the rooms as far as I know, it was towards the end of their day. My OB did say after the fact that I could have left, as of course we ended up waiting a long time in that room. I thought that kind of funny. What were we going to do, pop my head out in the middle of it all and say we're going for burgers! I figured they had much more important things to worry about than us waiting and I didn't want to disturb them. I almost peed myself though as I didn't want to go in the hallway with all the nurses, dr's and paramedics scurrying around!

Edited October 29, 2012 by soror

[Scarlett]

Scarlett- the OB performed the section NOT the nurse, she is just the one who moved me to the other room.

 

 

Oh!!!! I see! I missed that part. I thot it read that the nurse was looking for an OB. Ok, but still....for all of them....amazing that someone has the presense of mind to act so quickly and save TWO lives.

[Murphy101]

I don't know why. Hubris? I actually had someone say a few months after the event, a stranger, something to the effect of, "well maybe now you'll stop popping out babies!" wink wink. Like a joke. The donkey turd. The insinuation being I was being taught some divine lesson or directive, I suppose?:glare:

 

The key element seems to be some subconscious notion that bad things happen to people who deserve it. If you breastfeed you baby will be healthier. If you never miss an OB appt, do everything he says and permit every intervention at the hospital, your baby will be healthy and if he isn't - well they won't say you did something wrong, but they will want to know every detail of the pregnancy to judge every step. If you eat right, if you buy the right carseat, if you chose the right preschool... If you just follow all the "experts" you will have earned the right to sorrow and tears for the mortality you suffer. Nevermind that everyone suffers it. It's rude to point that out...

 

That's not to say prudence has no value, just that life is still terminal.

[brehon]

Great reply, Chucki! The quoted part below is so true. (Sorry. I haven't yet figured out how to quote a reply within another quote - I that makes sense.)

 

Chucki said, "Those people who make a career in medical fields, public service (cops, EMTs, firefighters) or military have to have a different mindset than the general public. They see some pretty horrendous things day in and day out. I'm not going to drudge up memories to share as examples. I'm sure anyone reading this can figure it out on their own.

 

In order to continue doing what it is they do so others don't have to their brains have to focus on the outcome or in some way find the good. That does not make them less human. It probably makes them more human. Sadly those who can't find that focus often turn to alcohol or drugs in order to not relive the incidents day after day.

 

Do you remember the Baby Jessica story? The girl who fell in a well? Did you know that the medic who carried her out of the well committed suicide several years later after turning to booze (IIRC).

 

Also we count on these people to be there, to be our rocks in hideous situations. You aren't going to find seasoned veterans in any of the above fields broken down in a sobbing mass of emotion. They will save that for when they get home. With luck they have someone they can turn to instead of turning to a bottle. Please don't ever think they are inhumane. They simply do what has to be done when others won't or can't."

 

To put another face on it - I've found that in the worst situations I hyper focus on my patient's immediate life-threatening problem(s). Only when I've done what I can do and/or delivered the patient to the ER can I relax enough to "see" the person. This doesn't make me inhumane. I'm one of the seasoned veterans Chucki mentioned. I've worked as a paramedic in a fairly busy system for 15 years, seen and dealt with things no one should have to see or deal with, and I am **** good at what I do. I've also come home and curled up in the fetal position and cried over someone's tragedy that I couldn't fix. Cried because those lives (the patient's and the family's) will never be the same.

 

Soror, I'm so glad you're doing better and that you've been cleared for your home birth. Chucki, you were much more elegant than I would have been in your explanation.

[Parrothead]

Chucki, you were much more elegant than I would have been in your explanation.

Thanks. I've had to explain it more than once. I've also learned not to horrify people with the memories.

 

In order to keep them in their place I'm going to quit this thread and go have a hot shower and a cup of tea with a pumpkin bar. Exercise can wait until tomorrow.

 

ETA: I think you are correct. It is the ones we can't save that stay with us the most.

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

I was one of those that had an emergency c-section without anesthesia. Yeah, it was sort of a blur. I'd had an epidural, but 12 hours sooner, so it had worn off, and her heart stopped. It hurt. I screamed. She's 26 now and I just got to hear her play an amazing opera! :D

__________________

How marvelous Margaret!

 

I had no idea they actually had a drug to make you forget.

I cannot imagine the trauma and feel sympathy for the women who do have to have these.

I will pray for everyone involved and for peace.

[happypamama]

Oh, and perhaps irony to some and to others not. That was my last visit to the OB as he is my back-up for the MW. I'm all clear for a hb by his account. I'll approach this birth as I have the others.

 

That's the way to go. When my niece was stillborn, I had had two easy, uncomplicated pregnancies and births, but I had to do some serious thinking about my first pregnancy after that tragedy. My niece died even with my SIL getting excellent OB care -- was it unnecessarily irresponsible of me to plan a homebirth, especially with the limited testing care that I wanted (especially wrt my parents' feelings)? In the end, I had to accept that there was only so much I could do to control things, and I ended up approaching that birth in the way we had intended. And that was right for us. It's really hard to accept that sometimes bad things happen, regardless of what you do or don't do, but I think listening to the experts you've chosen is helpful -- this OB cleared you for a homebirth, so that's good news. Honestly, he sounds fantastic -- comfortable clearing you for a homebirth, but the person you'd want caring for you in an emergency.

 

I do think that if you are still having a hard time processing all of that that it would be reasonable to speak with your midwife about it and maybe see a counselor to help you work through any unconscious fears and worries.

[mommytobees]

fwiw I don't consider it dwelling. It hasn't fallen out of my head yet. I would expect for most people it wouldn't. I can acknowledge my thoughts and feelings in regards to the situation I don't consider that a bad thing. It hasn't affected how I am coping with my own life or plans for my own birth in any way. I think feeling sorrow or pain for someone else is a normal thing. That is what I was getting at in an earlier post is that it seems that if we do that in our culture then we have to be sent for professional help. I do feel it a blessing whenever I am able to develop more empathy towards others in various situations. That is one of the great things about the internet that I've had my eyes opened to so many different people and their experiences. This situation was the same. I just process things differently, we all do. I'm a talker and a thinker.

 

It probably shouldn't fall out of your head fast. Chucki is right in saying that different people process events like this differently.

 

Before I got pregnant with my son (who is now 14) I was first on scene on a horrific auto accident. I was driving and with me was my friend who was a fireman/ paramedic. We were required to stop and he couldn't leave.

 

I can give you a detailed play-by-play of the entire accident. Life really did move in slow motion for a few seconds and then sped up and then slowed down again. The whole scene still haunts me today. I've never forgotten any of it.

 

BUT, I do not need mental help from it either. I'll never be an EMT or fireman or a nurse. I say I prefer to not deal with blood and vomit, but really it comes down to never ever ever wanting to see that again. I am trained, so if I arrive in the same place again I can and would render aid. BUT. I. sure. as. heck. never. ever. ever. want. to. see. that. again.

 

ever.

 

Kris

 

P.S. babies, toddlers, and children under 30lbs should ALWAYS be in a carseat

[misidawnrn]

I am sorry that you are traumatized by this event. It must have been horrible. Prayers for you and your family as well as that mama and hers.

[Soror]

I'll never be an EMT or fireman or a nurse. I say I prefer to not deal with blood and vomit, but really it comes down to never ever ever wanting to see that again. I am trained, so if I arrive in the same place again I can and would render aid. BUT. I. sure. as. heck. never. ever. ever. want. to. see. that. again.ever.

 

Yes, thank goodness there are those who can do those jobs and do them well.

[I.Dup.]

Wow, how scary. I had no idea they still did c-sections without pain meds. I mean, of course it makes sense, I guess I just don't like to think about it. :001_huh: How do they keep the woman still, especially just on an ultrasound table?

[Soror]

How do they keep the woman still, especially just on an ultrasound table?

I wondered about that as well. I'm sure that it was not a nice situation for anyone involved.

[elegantlion]

It probably shouldn't fall out of your head fast. Chucki is right in saying that different people process events like this differently.

 

Before I got pregnant with my son (who is now 14) I was first on scene on a horrific auto accident. I was driving and with me was my friend who was a fireman/ paramedic. We were required to stop and he couldn't leave.

 

I can give you a detailed play-by-play of the entire accident. Life really did move in slow motion for a few seconds and then sped up and then slowed down again. The whole scene still haunts me today. I've never forgotten any of it.

 

BUT, I do not need mental help from it either. I'll never be an EMT or fireman or a nurse. I say I prefer to not deal with blood and vomit, but really it comes down to never ever ever wanting to see that again. I am trained, so if I arrive in the same place again I can and would render aid. BUT. I. sure. as. heck. never. ever. ever. want. to. see. that. again.

 

ever.

 

Kris

 

P.S. babies, toddlers, and children under 30lbs should ALWAYS be in a carseat

 

I watched a fascinating show on the brain several years ago. The showed that somehow those in emergency situations actually slow down their internal time to make proper responses more quickly. They used the example of forest fire fighters. It was fascinating, wish I would remember more details.

 

I worked for a vet for 5 years. I saw things I will never repeat to another human because they were so traumatic at the time. We had to put on a game face and detach a lot of time, otherwise it would have been emotional overload everyday. I still have issues from working there, and it's been almost 20 years since I left that job. I can't imagine working with people in that capacity, I thank God there are those that do.

 

My own c-section happened after 2 1/2 days of labor. Try as I might, I can only remember snatches of those 2 1/2 days, like two or three vague memories.

[Dmmetler]

I can well believe a place that deals with high risk pregnancies would have such medications on hand. You can't keep an anesthesiologist in the closet for just such an emergency, but you can keep lidocane and versed on hand, just in case you've got exactly that sort of life and death situation.

 

When my blood pressure was through the roof and they had to deliver my son at 22 weeks due to HELLP syndrome, Versed was used before going into the C-section because, basically, they couldn't risk my hearing a statement made about the baby or about me and panicking. The drug would let me stay in a state where they could get feedback from me, and was less risky than general, but would protect me. (As it turned out, they had to go to general mid-procedure for me anyway-I was getting no anesthesia from the epidural at all anymore. I have to say I'm kind of GLAD I don't remember that part!).

 

Yes, I feel cheated because I missed my son's few minutes of life. But at the same time, I understand why they couldn't risk it. I was more than willing to die with my child-but that didn't mean they needed to increase the likelihood of it happening.

[Murphy101]

I would have felt completely violated if they had given me some memory swiping drug. Absolutely blood red angry furious violated.

 

No one has the right to decide for me what I do or do not have the right to remember what is happening to my own body or to my baby or what they think I can handle emotionally.

[Soror]

I would have felt completely violated if they had given me some memory swiping drug. Absolutely blood red angry furious violated.

 

No one has the right to decide for me what I do or do not have the right to remember what is happening to my own body or to my baby or what they think I can handle emotionally.

 

I would consider it a complete violation as well. I can understand the need and use of a drug to keep someone physically still but drugs for the express purpose of trying to make someone forget, as someone mentioned to me, completely unethical.

[I.Dup.]

I would consider it a complete violation as well. I can understand the need and use of a drug to keep someone physically still but drugs for the express purpose of trying to make someone forget, as someone mentioned to me, completely unethical.

 

I wouldn't want to be lucid and conscious for something that horrific. I see them giving the drug not about the sole purpose of forgetting, just so the person isn't completely aware of the horror of what is happening.

[Murphy101]

I would consider it a complete violation as well. I can understand the need and use of a drug to keep someone physically still but drugs for the express purpose of trying to make someone forget, as someone mentioned to me, completely unethical.

 

Saying I agree is a major understatement.

[justLisa]

I really like what Chuki said. I am a bawling mess when sad things happen. I do NOT need someone like that taking care of me LOL.

 

I labored for a full day. I pushed for so long but DS was posterior. I began to swell and basically go backwards so I needed a c-sec. It was not emergency per se, more like we are going NOW. I only had a few minutes to think about it.

 

I was shaking and crying. I'll NEVER forget the anesthesiologist. He literally held my face, and said close your eyes and you will meet your baby. I remember him putting his hand on my head and saying "shhhh." And when I opened them he was standing there and pressed J's cheek to mine. He had knocked me out and I had no clue. Knew exactly what to give me just for those few minutes of surgery and to have J wrapped up after cleaning him off so that was my first sight. He did not ask me to do that. I was beside myself and couldn't process any words anyways. He is the reason I could leave that OR with only feeling tired. I will always be grateful to him. He must see so much every day that he makes his best judgement as to what is the best course for each patient. He somehow knew I would not be able to handle those few minutes, and I have no doubt in my mind he was right.

 

I'm sorry OP you had to witness that. It can be much tougher on the outside just listening in, without really being able to feel what is going on.

[justLisa]

I wouldn't want to be lucid and conscious for something that horrific. I see them giving the drug not about the sole purpose of forgetting, just so the person isn't completely aware of the horror of what is happening.

 

I have to say I agree. I just posted what I went through and no way would I have wanted to be awake.

[I.Dup.]

I really like what Chuki said. I am a bawling mess when sad things happen. I do NOT need someone like that taking care of me LOL.

 

I labored for a full day. I pushed for so long but DS was posterior. I began to swell and basically go backwards so I needed a c-sec. It was not emergency per se, more like we are going NOW. I only had a few minutes to think about it.

 

I was shaking and crying. I'll NEVER forget the anesthesiologist. He literally held my face, and said close your eyes and you will meet your baby. I remember him putting his hand on my head and saying "shhhh." And when I opened them he was standing there and pressed J's cheek to mine. He had knocked me out and I had no clue. Knew exactly what to give me just for those few minutes of surgery and to have J wrapped up after cleaning him off so that was my first sight. He did not ask me to do that. I was beside myself and couldn't process any words anyways. He is the reason I could leave that OR with only feeling tired. I will always be grateful to him. He must see so much every day that he makes his best judgement as to what is the best course for each patient. He somehow knew I would not be able to handle those few minutes, and I have no doubt in my mind he was right.

 

I'm sorry OP you had to witness that. It can be much tougher on the outside just listening in, without really being able to feel what is going on.

 

See, I think this is wonderful. I would wish for the same, if I ever had to have emergency surgery.

[Murphy101]

I wouldn't want to be lucid and conscious for something that horrific. I see them giving the drug not about the sole purpose of forgetting, just so the person isn't completely aware of the horror of what is happening.

 

I really don't give a care what their excuse or reasoning is. They have no right to make that decision for me. A patient who requests it is one thing. A patient who is given these drugs without their knowledge is a whole other issue.

 

Sure it was horrid.

There were also moments if extreme joy. I still remember the nurse literally screaming and clapping for joy when my babies APGAR was yelled out. And I was able to respond and stay in control.

 

And those few moments of waking up and taking a few minutes to rejoin reality are the worst. I woke up so confused and scared and nauseated having to depend on total strangers to tell me anything about the last several hours. For many people, at least myself, the not knowing is the most horrifying part.

[FaithManor]

My OB said Versed is not used for wiping out memory. That is not the purpose and it doesn't work that way for everyone anyway. As a matter of fact, the survival mechanism in the brain for many people allows them to block the worst parts of memories that could hinder their ability to function...doesn't happen for all people, but it does for some.

 

It's a safe drug to use for sedation when they have an emergency that is so awful, they cannot wait for an anesthesia nor can they have the patient moving. Frankly, a mother who thinks she can control her pain tolerance to the place of undergoing major abdomenal surgery without epidural or general, but then actually cannot, is a danger to her baby and herself. Imagine what would happen if she started kicking and screaming from the pain while being operated on. Lidocaine only goes so far.

 

Unfortunately, due to a high risk situation I was in for my last one, I was made very well aware of what could be done for me at the OB's office in the event of a medical catastrophe. Thank the Lord for His mercies, it never came to that. So, in my case, I was very well aware of what was on hand and how that would go down. Not pretty!

 

DD is a medic and I'm thankful, every so thankful, she is able to compartmentalize and focus so well. If not, she would have already quit the job. When she arrives at church in her uniform just off a night shift, goes straight to the pastor's wife and asks for her 6 month old, and then goes to the foyer to sit in a chair and cuddle with her, no one asks! It's bad...dd wants her "healthy baby fix" as she puts it and needs it in order to sleep. Sometimes I wonder how easy it will ever be for her to be pregnant, labor and birth, and parent. In one year, she's seen so much horrible, horrible stuff which the rest of us are blissfully unaware of most of the time. I don't know how any medical professionals or fire/rescue pros manage the prenancy/childbirth/pediatric years personally! Again, it requires someone who has been blessed with the ability to block it out, calm themselves, focus on the job at hand, and move forward with what needs to be done.

 

Faith

[I.Dup.]

A patient who requests it is one thing. A patient who is given these drugs without their knowledge is a whole other issue.

 

 

But what about when they don't have time to print the papers, have the papers signed, give consent, etc, etc, etc? Like what happened in this OB office? Sometimes there just isn't time, yk?

[Soror]

I really like what Chuki said. I am a bawling mess when sad things happen. I do NOT need someone like that taking care of me LOL.

 

 

I wouldn't either. I don't know where that idea came from or why it keeps coming up. Being empathetic to the situation of the patient doesn't meaning one is bawling or such. The original comment I mentioned wasn't even made by a med professional, although it seemed that it was assumed. I made comments in subsequent posts that the emotional feelings of the patient shouldn't be dismissed, just because there is a good physical outcome, as there were a few posts stating that. When I say that I mean acknowledging it and recognizing those feelings as entirely normal and listening. Dh and I were in a different situation then those med professionals. We were parents just hearing all the agonizing bits and coming from the position of relating to the family. Neither of us were bawling either, but we did have tears in our eyes.

 

I would hope as well that med professionals involved with traumatic events have people they can talk to as well, when it is needed. I would imagine it is hard to balance that in a way that works best for your own emotional needs and the physical demands of the job. I know dh's aunt is a Nurse Practitioner, I've heard her talk about one particular accident that she attended, which was of one of dh's friend (she had passed away at the scene). I know it still haunts her, although I'm sure she did what was needed in the situation.

 

Again as well I'm pretty sure there wasn't any versed or such administered in that room. The lady I talked to, who again was NOT a med professional, but a friend/acquaintance was stating they would give it to her after the fact and it wasn't versed she mentioned- I cannot remember the name of the drug. She was saying they would give it for the sole purpose of forgetting because at the point she went to the OR they were able to give other drugs to keep her physically still, that was not at all what we were talking about.

Edited October 29, 2012 by soror

[justLisa]

I wouldn't either. I don't know where that idea came from or why it keeps coming up. Being empathetic to the situation of the patient doesn't meaning one is bawling or such. The original comment I mentioned wasn't even made by a med professional, although it seemed that it was assumed. I made comments in subsequent posts that the emotional feelings of the patient shouldn't be dismissed, just because there is a good physical outcome, as there were a few posts stating that. When I say that I mean acknowledging it and recognizing those feelings as entirely normal and listening.

 

I would hope as well that med professionals involved with traumatic events have people they can talk to as well, when it is needed. I would imagine it is hard to balance that in a way that works best for your own emotional needs and the physical demands of the job. I know dh's aunt is a Nurse Practitioner, I've heard her talk about one particular accident that she attended, which was of one of dh's friend (she had passed away at the scene). I know it still haunts her, although I'm sure she did what was needed in the situation.

 

I don't think they should be dismissed. Everyone deals with trauma differently. I don't know what is going the the heads of the providers trying to save a life. It's traumatic for all involved for sure.

[Soror]

I was shaking and crying. I'll NEVER forget the anesthesiologist. He literally held my face, and said close your eyes and you will meet your baby. I remember him putting his hand on my head and saying "shhhh." And when I opened them he was standing there and pressed J's cheek to mine. He had knocked me out and I had no clue. Knew exactly what to give me just for those few minutes of surgery and to have J wrapped up after cleaning him off so that was my first sight. He did not ask me to do that. I was beside myself and couldn't process any words anyways. He is the reason I could leave that OR with only feeling tired. I will always be grateful to him. He must see so much every day that he makes his best judgement as to what is the best course for each patient. He somehow knew I would not be able to handle those few minutes, and I have no doubt in my mind he was right.n.

I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience. Thank goodness for the wonderful medical care you and your baby received.

[BigMamaBird]

:001_huh: Oh wow.

 

I pray that after all that terror, they have a little baby to raise.

 

Wow. What a story to tell when the little one gets older.

[Catherine]

There is good evidence from studies of children who are given pre-operative sedation with similar medications that they do better and are less often traumatized than children who do not get pre-operative sedation.

 

I don't understand why you would feel violated-is it because someone else has decided without consulting you first to soften your memory of the event? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm honestly asking. Versed will not completely erase a memory, it simply makes it less crystal clear, fuzzier. It is often given before procedures like colonoscopies, heart catheterizations, that kind of thing.

[Audrey]

I had a c-section with a failed anesthetic. I was wide awake and felt the whole thing. Yes, it is traumatic. Yes, it is mentally and emotionally scarring, but I walked away with a healthy baby (as I see this mom did, too).

 

That makes all the difference in the world.

 

I will admit, though, that when people would be really nosey and rude and ask me when I was going to have another kid, I would tell them about my c-section in vivid no-holds-barred detail. I feel they kind of deserve it for being such an a$$.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Audrey

[Scarlett]

I had a c-section with a failed anesthetic. I felt the whole thing. Yes, it is traumatic. Yes, it is mentally and emotionally scarring, but I walked away with a healthy baby (as I see this mom did, too).

 

That makes all the difference in the world.

 

I will admit, though, that when people would be really nosey and rude and ask me when I was going to have another kid, I would tell them about my c-section in vivid no-holds-barred detail. I feel they kind of deserve it for being such an a$$.

 

:iagree:

[Audrey]

I really like what Chuki said. I am a bawling mess when sad things happen. I do NOT need someone like that taking care of me LOL.

 

I labored for a full day. I pushed for so long but DS was posterior. I began to swell and basically go backwards so I needed a c-sec. It was not emergency per se, more like we are going NOW. I only had a few minutes to think about it.

 

I was shaking and crying. I'll NEVER forget the anesthesiologist. He literally held my face, and said close your eyes and you will meet your baby. I remember him putting his hand on my head and saying "shhhh." And when I opened them he was standing there and pressed J's cheek to mine. He had knocked me out and I had no clue. Knew exactly what to give me just for those few minutes of surgery and to have J wrapped up after cleaning him off so that was my first sight. He did not ask me to do that. I was beside myself and couldn't process any words anyways. He is the reason I could leave that OR with only feeling tired. I will always be grateful to him. He must see so much every day that he makes his best judgement as to what is the best course for each patient. He somehow knew I would not be able to handle those few minutes, and I have no doubt in my mind he was right.

 

I'm sorry OP you had to witness that. It can be much tougher on the outside just listening in, without really being able to feel what is going on.

 

 

My anesthesiologist had given me a spinal. When they tested my legs, I couldn't feel it, so they figured we were good. Nope. It wasn't down far enough. When they started to cut, I couldn't make even the smallest sound. I looked at my dh, who got very, very pale. The anesthesiologist asked me if I felt something and all I could do was nod through tears. He was horrified. You could see it. Unfortunately, that did nothing to calm me. I was shaking so bad. They were very fast and as soon as ds was out, I got a big fat dose of morphine. Up until then, though, all I could think was "at least when we send hogs to the abbattoir, they have the decency to knock them out before they gut them." I was in my own horror movie having my guts rumaged around in by doctors with no faces.

 

I'd never had nightmares that bad.

 

But... like I said, I ended up with a healthy baby and that made a world of difference. It doesn't lessen or negate the horror of what happened, but it does give some sense of purpose to it (at least for me). I also fully understand that it was not a negligent or malicious mistake. It was just a mistake. Thankfully, we all survived.

[Murphy101]

But what about when they don't have time to print the papers, have the papers signed, give consent, etc, etc, etc? Like what happened in this OB office? Sometimes there just isn't time, yk?

 

Wait. That makes no sense. If they don't have time to ask me about administering a drug that won't save my life - then they shouldn't waste precious seconds sticking me with it.

 

They didn't have ANY paperwork for me to do my cs.

 

There is good evidence from studies of children who are given pre-operative sedation with similar medications that they do better and are less often traumatized than children who do not get pre-operative sedation.

 

I am not a child nor am I someone with only a child's comprehension.

 

I don't understand why you would feel violated-is it because someone else has decided without consulting you first to soften your memory of the event? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm honestly asking. Versed will not completely erase a memory, it simply makes it less crystal clear, fuzzier. It is often given before procedures like colonoscopies, heart catheterizations, that kind of thing.

 

D@mn straight bc they didn't ask. Because it isn't a colonoscopy. It's the birth of my child. And though I am absolutely thrilled I have the vivid memory of my son crying and a nurse clapping for joy - I don't want that memory to be "fuzzy" or less vivid. And because if those had been my ONLY bitter memories of my son, I'd feel all the more robbed if someone stole that memory or deminished it. Supposedly for my own sake.

 

Those memories bitter or joyous are MINE and no one has the right to decide I'm better off without them or with them deminished.

 

It's infuriating to me to even need to explain that basic bit of humanity.

[justLisa]

My anesthesiologist had given me a spinal. When they tested my legs, I couldn't feel it, so they figured we were good. Nope. It wasn't down far enough. When they started to cut, I couldn't make even the smallest sound. I looked at my dh, who got very, very pale. The anesthesiologist asked me if I felt something and all I could do was nod through tears. He was horrified. You could see it. Unfortunately, that did nothing to calm me. I was shaking so bad. They were very fast and as soon as ds was out, I got a big fat dose of morphine. Up until then, though, all I could think was "at least when we send hogs to the abbattoir, they have the decency to knock them out before they gut them." I was in my own horror movie having my guts rumaged around in by doctors with no faces.

 

I'd never had nightmares that bad.

 

 

But... like I said, I ended up with a healthy baby and that made a world of difference. It doesn't lessen or negate the horror of what happened, but it does give some sense of purpose to it (at least for me). I also fully understand that it was not a negligent or malicious mistake. It was just a mistake. Thankfully, we all survived.

 

OMG. I have no doubt that my life would have been vastly different for a long while had THAT doctor been there. :grouphug:

[Audrey]

:iagree: This is a good ending. I had a csection that had me bleeding out. The doctors and nurses were panicking, my epidural wore off and I was screaming and crying and I remember it. But I did get good drugs after that definitely took the edge off. My husband was MUCH more traumatized that day. I cannot imagine being prepared to do an emergency csection without having something there.

 

That said moms like that are at high risk for PPD, and I wish someone would have told me that before. I did have PPD after my first child (and no problem after my 2nd)

 

Yes, the PPD was unexpected, but my dh was very clued in and took me to the doc to help me. I was grateful. I do wish I'd had more information that such a thing could happen and that anesthetic/drug protocols don't always work. The reason I got the spinal was because the epidural never did work properly (strangely blocked only on one side of my body). It had long worn off and they didn't feel that would help. Hence the spinal.

 

My dh was quite traumatized by it all. I think the anesthesiologist was also pretty traumatized.

[Audrey]

 

 

Those memories bitter or joyous are MINE and no one has the right to decide I'm better off without them or with them deminished.

 

It's infuriating to me to even need to explain that basic bit of humanity.

 

 

I absolutely, completely understand, Martha. I remember every bit of every moment. Yes, much of it was horrific, but I also remember my dh standing there looking down at me, petting my hair and telling me he wasn't going to let go of my hand. I remember hearing my son's first squeaks and asking if that was my baby. The last thing I remember is my dh holding up our son and asking me what his name was, and I could just get out his name.

 

Then I got morphine and got sewn up.

 

I would feel robbed if they'd given me something to fog up those memories. It was a nightmare enough. I need those memories to know that it WAS real. That was my child's birth. I was there. It was real.

 

That is deeply meaningful to me. No one has a right to take that away from me.

[Slartibartfast]

I would consider it a complete violation as well. I can understand the need and use of a drug to keep someone physically still but drugs for the express purpose of trying to make someone forget, as someone mentioned to me, completely unethical.

 

It is used to reduce suffering.

 

They give it to babies on ventilators, children undergoing traumatizing procedures for which they have to be awake and things like that. Full anesthesia isn't always possible. There are some brain surgeries they can only perform while the patient is awake and sometimes those procedures are done on kids...can one imagine??

 

They gave it to me for an endoscopy. I had a bad reaction to it but I can see how very useful it is in the right hands.

 

And...they told me they were giving it to me and were clear about what it was supposed to do. I think they would tell someone they were giving it to them, it isn't exactly something you wouldn't notice.

 

 

With my daughter I had been given an epidural but before the surgeon cut he lightly pinched me asking if I could feel it, I could and he gave me lidocain. I could feel pulling and pressure but not pain to the point of screaming.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Sis

[Soror]

It is used to reduce suffering.

 

They give it to babies on ventilators, children experienced traumatizing procedures for which they have to be awake and things like that. Full anesthesia isn't always possible. There are some brain surgeries they can only perform while the patient is awake and sometimes those procedures are done on kids...can one imagine??

 

They gave it to me for an endoscopy. I had a bad reaction to it but I can see how very useful it is in the right hands.

 

 

With my daughter I had been given an epidural but before the surgeon cut he lightly pinched me asking if I could feel it, I could and he gave me lidocain. I could feel pulling and pressure but not pain to the point of screaming.

 

Again those are not the situations in which I am referring. I am referring specifically to the use of a drug explicitly for the sole purpose of trying to supress memories. This reference was talking about giving the drug AFTER the traumatic procedure. Not to reduce the trauma during. I would expect when she went to the OR she was given GA to finish the stitching up. I would welcome it in that instance, that is not what I was referencing. I would welcome GA in an emergency instance as well if there was time. I'd welcome versed as well if would take the edge off. What I wouldn't welcome is the administration of a drug after the fact to diminish or erase my memories without my consent. In that instance I would consider that to be a violation.

[Slartibartfast]

Again those are not the situations in which I am referring. I am referring specifically to the use of a drug explicitly for the sole purpose of trying to supress memories. This reference was talking about giving the drug AFTER the traumatic procedure. Not to reduce the trauma during. I would expect when she went to the OR she was given GA to finish the stitching up. I would welcome it in that instance, that is not what I was referencing. I would welcome GA in an emergency instance as well if there was time. I'd welcome versed as well if would take the edge off. What I wouldn't welcome is the administration of a drug after the fact to diminish or erase my memories without my consent. In that instance I would consider that to be a violation.

 

But would they do that? I don't see why they would administer a potentially dangerous medication unless someone was completely unglued.

[Delighted3]

My anesthesiologist had given me a spinal. When they tested my legs, I couldn't feel it, so they figured we were good. Nope. It wasn't down far enough. When they started to cut, I couldn't make even the smallest sound./QUOTE]

 

 

I had a similar thing happen to me with my first baby. Only a I started screaming when they cut into me and then all I remember is a gas mask and 10, 9, 8..

 

With my 2nd, I begged to just be put under for the c-section, but was promised lots of morphine with the spinal. Turns out I do not react to morphine well and so was feeling everything, but unable to communicate to anyone about it.

 

My last 4 c-sections weren't as traumatic during the procedure, but I always had a lot of anxiety leading up to them. I would often be such a basket case that I would be vomiting the night before.

Joy

[Soror]

But would they do that? I don't see why they would administer a potentially dangerous medication unless someone was completely unglued.

 

I don't know but that is what my comment was referencing. I don't know if the person saying this had accurate info or not. Although her mom is a long time L and D nurse at our hospital. I wish I could remember the drug she referenced but that has fell at of my brain.

[swellmomma]

I still need to read all 10 pages but wanted to offer :grouphug:

 

The person who said they will give her drugs and she will forget is delusional. I remember every moment of my section. It was not an emergency one like you witnessed, but not a scheduled one. Because of the rush to have ds out they did not hang a drape or anything. I watched them slice me, I watched them pull ds out. He was a prem so the fear of his health was there for sure. I watched them pull up my uterus to stitch it up again. And then I started freaking out and had a panic attack on the table. The after surgery pain meds never worked so I spent 24 hours in and out of consciousness dealing with pain before I even got to see my son. Nothing will ever wipe those memories from my head.

 

The versed that someone mentioned was used for my foot surgery. I needed a triple dose. I was out cold and don't remember anything from it. That is good stuff when given ahead of time.

 

Just lidocaine to freeze teh skin and start cutting, heck no. I would not be surprised if that lady needs counselling to deal with PTSD after an experience like that. If I went through that it would as traumatic as someone randomly attacking me and ripping my baby out. Yes it was needed and yes I would have consented to it to save my baby, but it is still highly traumatic.

[Alice]

Again those are not the situations in which I am referring. I am referring specifically to the use of a drug explicitly for the sole purpose of trying to supress memories. This reference was talking about giving the drug AFTER the traumatic procedure. Not to reduce the trauma during. I would expect when she went to the OR she was given GA to finish the stitching up. I would welcome it in that instance, that is not what I was referencing. I would welcome GA in an emergency instance as well if there was time. I'd welcome versed as well if would take the edge off. What I wouldn't welcome is the administration of a drug after the fact to diminish or erase my memories without my consent. In that instance I would consider that to be a violation.

 

I’m pretty sure a drug such as you are describing does not exist. Could it be that your friend is mistaken? There are memory suppressing drugs being developed and in clinical trials, all are being used for patients with PTSD or who have suffered severe trauma who are looking for ways to lessen the emotional and stressful impact of their memories. In the few cases I saw even those don’t erase the memories themselves but diminish the emotional response to the memories and are all being used with the patient’s consent and desire.

 

Many of the drugs that are used for sedation or anesthesia have as a side effect that they cause some degree of retrograde amnesia. They aren’t used by doctors to “erase memories†but for anesthesia or sedations. Either you would be consenting to the medication or it would be so emergent that you wouldn’t have time to consent (either no anesthesia or an emergent C-section where the woman is quickly placed under general anesthesia). In the latter case there is verbal consent but maybe not time for papers to be signed.

[Soror]

Alice- I just don't know could very well be. The saddest part to me was the callousness in which she referred to it all. Well, no matter they'll just give her a drug and she will be fine. She has a healthy baby, so what concern is there. I hope that women doesn't run into anyone with a similar attitude.

[MedicMom]

Versed has many uses, including sedation(it also breaks seizures). It does not erase memories, though it can dull them. I have used it to calm people down. However it cam cause respiratory depression. I know your friend was just speculating, but it is possible that the woman was given something to calm her down.

 

I know this really bothers you, but please understand that we are not all cold and calloused because we dont understand "birth trauma." I actually had an emergency c section with limited pain management with my daughter. It wasn't physically pleasant, but there was a uterine rupture and we were both going to die. I was not traumatized, I was thankful because a few minutes previous I had every intention of performing an emergency c section on myself with a scalpel and some iodine.

But I am someone who has never had any emotional attachment to the birth process and viewed my own two births as a solely biological event. The circumstances just weren't important to me, the beautiful babies in my arms were all I cared about.

To be honest, until reading this thread, I never considered how I felt about my last birth. All this to say, people react differently to different things. Please don't judge their reactions as cold and callous just because they are different than yours.

Edited October 29, 2012 by MedicMom

[mommymilkies]

Oh I completely agree that birth trauma is dismissed. As long as your baby lived, quit your bellyaching is very much a wide spread sentiment.

 

Um no. It's not right to treat humans like meat on the block just because they are giving birth.:glare:

 

I'm just saying that I wouldn't assume everyone in medicine has that attitude.

 

If anything, I think it's worse and predominantly other women/mothers that perpetuate it.

 

:iagree: I have never had a c-section, but a traumatic second birth. It took me years to come to terms with it.

 

:grouphug:

[Soror]

To reiterate my thoughts irt birth trauma and such came from reading and listening to other women talk about how their pain and trauma was dismissed. Telling another person that they shouldn't feel any emotional pain or trauma because at least their baby lived is cold and callous. I'm happy others made it through similar experiences without feeling upset. I did not say at any point that those that didn't have trauma were cold and callous. My thoughts were irt how people treat the person who has undergone the event and not how any particular person handles such event themselves.

 

Also, again we could hear a great deal of everything going and I'm fairly certain Versed or any other such thing was not administered beforehand. The comment about such drugs was referring to giving them AFTER the event.

Edited October 30, 2012 by soror

[dansamy]

She was probably given Ativan and/or Versed. Maybe another drug or two depending on what the office might have had. These drugs won't make her forget. They'll dull the horror, but she'll still need PTSD therapies/counseling.