Lovedtodeath Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 My current church is not "enough". I am being called to a more historical sacramental church. I am not going to argue with God. that is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I always wonder what people mean when they say their church is not enough or is not meeting their needs. I know you said "That is all," but it still leaves me curious.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) I always wonder what people mean when they say their church is not enough or is not meeting their needs. I know you said "That is all," but it still leaves me curious.:) The main thing for me is that the law and the gospel be properly separated in preaching and teaching, and that the sacraments are provided. I have been reading and listening to another denomination and the Spirit within me says YES! Edited October 5, 2012 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 :grouphug: and prayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabi Sabi Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The main thing for me is that the law and the gospel be properly separated in preaching and teaching, and that the sacraments are provided. I have been reading and listening to another denomination and the Spirit within me says YES! What does that mean? I'm not Christian so when I see posts like this I'm left scratching my head. I'd *like* to understand! (I know what sacraments are, but separating the preaching/teaching of the gospel? Huh?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The main thing for me is that the law and the gospel be properly separated in preaching and teaching, and that the sacraments are provided. I have been reading and listening to another denomination and the Spirit within me says YES! Feel free to ignore me if you don't want to discuss it....;) I agree that the sacraments must be part of the church-baptism and The Lord's Supper. These are means of grace and are part of how God spiritually nourishes us. On the Law and Gospel being separated-I don't know what that means? The purpose of the Law is to show us our need for Christ and the gospel is present through all of the OT. How are they supposed to be separated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 What does that mean? I'm not Christian so when I see posts like this I'm left scratching my head. I'd *like* to understand! (I know what sacraments are, but separating the preaching/teaching of the gospel? Huh?) Not sure if this is what LovedtoDeath is meaning for certain, but if I might take a stab at it? There are some churches where the teaching (in the form of preaching mostly) is the central focus. In some, worship (or singing and praises) and gifts (speaking in tongues, etc) are the central focus. In some, worship and sacraments are the central focus...with a very strong focus on the sacraments and teaching is kept short during the service, but held at other times separate from the service (the readings are a big part of teaching and there are other opportunity for teaching, therefore the homily is kept short). LovedtoDeath, I am curious if this was what you meant or if you meant something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Thank you Mommaduck. Teaching is not the same as worship. Also, worship is misunderstood. I think that is it. The purpose of the Law is to show us our need for Christ and the gospel is present through all of the OT. How are they supposed to be separated? Exactly. The purpose of the law must be understood. The law does not empower us, strengthen us, put wind in our sails. Trying to observe the law does not save us or give us a relationship with God. The gospel must be preached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 I have a family reunion to go to today, so I won't be able to go into much detail. Stupid timing of me I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I have a family reunion to go to today, so I won't be able to go into much detail. Stupid timing of me I know. whenever you have a chance ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 My current church is not "enough". I am being called to a more historical sacramental church. I am not going to argue with God. that is all. Me too. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedmom4 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 If I am understanding you correctly I am struggling with the same issue. God Bless, Elise in NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 My current church is not "enough". I am being called to a more historical sacramental church. I am not going to argue with God. that is all. :thumbup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Lord have mercy! May God bless you with everything you need for unity with Him. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 If I am understanding you correctly I am struggling with the same issue. God Bless, Elise in NC Me too. :D Lord have mercy on all of us! :grouphug: :grouphug: Praying for you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Well, the curious want to know. What church are you looking into ? I'm glad you know what you have now does not fit and are courageous enough to make the switch. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyCrazyMama Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 :grouphug: May God be with you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whereneverever Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 A sacramental church with the proper distinctions between Law and Gospel is such a wonder thing!:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The main thing for me is that the law and the gospel be properly separated in preaching and teaching, and that the sacraments are provided. I have been reading and listening to another denomination and the Spirit within me says YES! I'm not sure what this means by the "law and the gospel" being properly separated, unless she means that in Christ we are no longer under the law, but free. But anyway, to me, sometimes a church is "not enough" if it focuses on a very watered-down message. "Be good people." Nothing about sin, or holiness or the work or gifts of the Holy Spirit, and how we are empowered to accomplish things on this earth for the Lord. Sometimes you never even hear the Word of God, except in tiny, pre-packaged sound bites, a scripture or two here and there. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, says the scriptures. I remember that I was starving for this after we had been in a mainline more sacramental church for awhile. So everyone is different, and needs change over time for the same person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Glory to God, LTD! May your path be richly blessed. :grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'm not sure what this means by the "law and the gospel" being properly separated, unless she means that in Christ we are no longer under the law, but free. But anyway, to me, sometimes a church is "not enough" if it focuses on a very watered-down message. "Be good people." Nothing about sin, or holiness or the work or gifts of the Holy Spirit, and how we are empowered to accomplish things on this earth for the Lord. Sometimes you never even hear the Word of God, except in tiny, pre-packaged sound bites, a scripture or two here and there. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, says the scriptures. I remember that I was starving for this after we had been in a mainline more sacramental church for awhile. So everyone is different, and needs change over time for the same person. I agree totally on the "be good people" watered down preaching thing...I have been to churches that sound like pop culture talk shows (think Oprah) not church. But I'm confused by the second part...I've never been to a sacramental church that didn't have extensive scripture readings each service...an old testament reading, a new testament reading (an epistle), a psalm, and a reading from the Gospel. Every single service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Peace for your journey! :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'm not sure what this means by the "law and the gospel" being properly separated, unless she means that in Christ we are no longer under the law, but free. But anyway, to me, sometimes a church is "not enough" if it focuses on a very watered-down message. "Be good people." Nothing about sin, or holiness or the work or gifts of the Holy Spirit, and how we are empowered to accomplish things on this earth for the Lord. Sometimes you never even hear the Word of God, except in tiny, pre-packaged sound bites, a scripture or two here and there. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, says the scriptures. I remember that I was starving for this after we had been in a mainline more sacramental church for awhile. So everyone is different, and needs change over time for the same person. We listen to three scripture readings, communally pray, and my Priest's homilies are amazing (my parish is a banquet, I have wonderful priests, all which are amazing). And the Eucharist. My parish is on FIRE for God, and the Holy Spirit is working there, mightily. And I say that as a person who spent much time in a Pentecostal church. 10,000 times, and THEN begins understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'm assuming that the OP is talking about investigating the Orthodox or Catholic church since the Orthodox and Catholic ladies seem to know exactly what she's talking about. Good detective work?:D I'm very Reformed in my doctrine so I'm supposing this probably isn't the thread for me. OP, I wouldn't want to dissuade you in your journey.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 We listen to three scripture readings, communally pray, and my Priest's homilies are amazing (my parish is a banquet, I have wonderful priests, all which are amazing). And the Eucharist. My parish is on FIRE for God, and the Holy Spirit is working there, mightily. And I say that as a person who spent much time in a Pentecostal church. 10,000 times, and THEN begins understanding. :iagree: Scripture readings, prayers, responses, hymns, psalms, homily, and the Eucharist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'm assuming that the OP is talking about investigating the Orthodox or Catholic church since the Orthodox and Catholic ladies seem to know exactly what she's talking about. Good detective work?:D I'm very Reformed in my doctrine so I'm supposing this probably isn't the thread for me. OP, I wouldn't want to dissuade you in your journey.:grouphug: There are some Reformed that are pretty liturgical though ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 There are some Reformed that are pretty liturgical though ;) Yep. I'm in a PCA church and we have a liturgical service.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'm not sure what this means by the "law and the gospel" being properly separated, unless she means that in Christ we are no longer under the law, but free. Hmmm, I understand it more like this: The Gospel has fulfilled the law, not replaced it or abolished it; the law is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, so that we can be free from sin and death. We are under the law of God fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Orthodox Christians on this board, please correct me if I have misunderstood this aspect of the faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 What does that mean? I'm not Christian so when I see posts like this I'm left scratching my head. I'd *like* to understand! (I know what sacraments are, but separating the preaching/teaching of the gospel? Huh?) For me, being a Christian is not about trying to follow the rules in the Bible. Being a Christian is knowing that I can't. I mean, have you seen what the Bible says? LAW: "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21 My sins are on that list! Oh woe is me! This is impossible! But Jesus! "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21 "and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.†Isaiah 53:6 And this is the problem when we don't separate law and gospel: "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:4 "Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? Have you experienceda so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?" Galatians 3:1-4 Being a Christian is relying on this good news about Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2jjka Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) Hmmm...if she is speaking about law vs. gospel - my first guess is that she is looking at a Lutheran church - (possibly LCMS or WELS?) I'm a member of the WELS. It is liturgical, sacramental, and has a very clear distinction of law vs gospel. Regardless - I hope that your new church home blesses you ! Edited October 5, 2012 by mom2jjka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 When you have more time - I hope you can tell us more about what this means to you in the form of participating in a sacramental church, specifically. :D pretty, pretty please. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 For me, being a Christian is not about trying to follow the rules in the Bible. Being a Christian is knowing that I can't. I mean, have you seen what the Bible says? LAW: "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21 My sins are on that list! Oh woe is me! This is impossible! But Jesus! "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21 "and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.†Isaiah 53:6 And this is the problem when we don't separate law and gospel: "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:4 "Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? Have you experienceda so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?" Galatians 3:1-4 Being a Christian is relying on this good news about Jesus. Amen Carmen! Blessings on your journey. :grouphug::thumbup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elinor Everywhere Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Me too. :D Me, three!! After being raised Catholic, then attending a non-demon church for 20 years, I felt strongly that God was calling me back to a liturgical service. Thought my husband would pass out! :D But we've found a truly wonderful Anglican church, with lots of strong, biblical, expository teaching from our awesome young priest, an incredible cantor who gets our choir to do the most amazing work, a youth group that is bible-focused (no games, pizza and movies, skateboarding....that all happens at someone's home for social get togethers - youth group time is for bible study and drawing close to Christ - :hurray: What a change!), and a small-ish congregation that could not have been more welcoming and friendly. I DO miss some of the worship tunes we used to sing, but that's it. So happy to have found my church! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'm assuming that the OP is talking about investigating the Orthodox or Catholic church since the Orthodox and Catholic ladies seem to know exactly what she's talking about. Good detective work?:D I'm very Reformed in my doctrine so I'm supposing this probably isn't the thread for me. OP, I wouldn't want to dissuade you in your journey.:grouphug: Not necessarily. Could be RC, EO, Lutheran, Anglican possibly another but my brain is broken at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutor Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Yep. I'm in a PCA church and we have a liturgical service.:) We're reformed and currently PCA but the PCA churches in our new city are not as liturgical as we'd like so we're looking into the Reformed Episcopal Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 (edited) Not necessarily. Could be RC, EO, Lutheran, Anglican possibly another but my brain is broken at the moment. you forgot United Methodist. :D It is between two at the moment. It started with Lutheran then I went to investigate more at the library and ended up reading about United Methodist the whole time. I was really trying to not give specifics, because I think that different people are drawn by God to different churches. I haven't visited them yet. I am afraid that being there is going to be a let down compared to the sermons I listen to and books I have read. But I keep getting the feeling of God's presence when I think of a specific church. Edited October 6, 2012 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 you forgot United Methodist. :D Is that a hint, Carmen?:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 Is that a hint, Carmen?:DLOL, go back I added more to the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I didn't realize UMC was a sacramental denomination. Learn something new every day.:001_smile: I am glad you're finding your way, dearie. It feels good to be heading home doesn't it? :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 When you have more time - I hope you can tell us more about what this means to you in the form of participating in a sacramental church, specifically. :D pretty, pretty please. :DWell, the idea that going to church or getting baptized is something that I do for God is all backwards. Jesus provided the sacraments and the church for us. I can't explain it really... The sacraments are a mystery to us to a degree... we can't fully explain, just as we can't fully explain the nature of God... but I made sure I read all of the scriptures on baptism before hand... and I have read the scriptures about the Lord's supper, and teaching these things as merely a symbol or an act of obedience is just not quite the understanding that a full range of scripture gives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Well, the idea that going to church or getting baptized is something that I do for God is all backwards. Jesus provided the sacraments and the church for us. I can't explain it really... The sacraments are a mystery to us to a degree... we can't fully explain, just as we can't fully explain the nature of God... but I made sure I read all of the scriptures on baptism before hand... and I have read the scriptures about the Lord's supper, and teaching these things as merely a symbol or an act of obedience is just not quite the understanding that a full range of scripture gives. :iagree::iagree::D:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 I didn't realize UMC was a sacramental denomination. Learn something new every day.:001_smile: I am glad you're finding your way, dearie. It feels good to be heading home doesn't it? :grouphug: Actually, it is quite frustrating. I could stay home and read the Bible alone or listen to a sermon and feel closer to God that way than going to church, so I went through a time really rebelling against church altogether because going to church didn't make any difference. And all along I have longed to visit this church near my house and I started to realize why. My husband hates the idea, but he isn't happy at the church we started at either, so here I go, ready to make a difference again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 it sounds like you are on a great and exciting journey. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 ... The sacraments are a mystery to us to a degree... we can't fully explain, just as we can't fully explain the nature of God... And they have often been called the Holy Mysteries. Happy for you, Carmen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Actually, it is quite frustrating. I could stay home and read the Bible alone or listen to a sermon and feel closer to God that way than going to church, so I went through a time really rebelling against church altogether because going to church didn't make any difference. And all along I have longed to visit this church near my house and I started to realize why. My husband hates the idea, but he isn't happy at the church we started at either, so here I go, ready to make a difference again. Well, yeah, having God shove me out of my comfort zone is, well, not comfortable; on the other hand, when I stop fighting the shove, good things happen. I will pray for you and your dh to find both peace and consensus. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I'm no expert on this topic, but I do want to tell you that I'm happy you are narrowing down your choices and have a few places that seem like they will be a good fit for your family and your beliefs. I wish you all the best. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Just wanted to say, converting to Catholicism was not EVER something I thought we would do. I thought it was a cult and I didn't even know you could get in outside of marrying into it (ahhh, how ignorant and uninformed I was!) but mercifully, we went with the Spirit's leading and it wasn't just for me. My husband has grown and matured SO much through our journey into the Catholic faith and I cannot put into words what that means to me, I am just so thankful. God knows where we need to be, even if it seems scary at first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 Just wanted to say, converting to Catholicism was not EVER something I thought we would do. I thought it was a cult and I didn't even know you could get in outside of marrying into it (ahhh, how ignorant and uninformed I was!) but mercifully, we went with the Spirit's leading and it wasn't just for me. My husband has grown and matured SO much through our journey into the Catholic faith and I cannot put into words what that means to me, I am just so thankful. God knows where we need to be, even if it seems scary at first.exactly. We aren't growing where we are, my husband never goes anymore... I am thinking he will be happier in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 Wow, thank you so much everyone for all of your support! I'm no expert on this topic, but I do want to tell you that I'm happy you are narrowing down your choices and have a few places that seem like they will be a good fit for your family and your beliefs. I wish you all the best. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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