so me and church... you were right.

[GWOB]

Well, I don't know if it helps LTD, but it makes me sad that this is a belief in the Christian world. (Although, of course, I do respect your freedom to believe as you will in this regard!)

 

Did you happen to watch the video linked above? It's pretty good, I think, regarding this idea that God turns his back on us because of our sin (then again, the ancient church has never taught the idea of original sin). I like how it showed that the Father and the Son are never pitted against each other (as in a juridical theology), and that Christ never ever turned his back on those shown to be sinners in the Scriptures. He always, always sought them out in love.

 

See, for me personally, Lutheran theology does not teach that God turns his back on you. Decision theology had me constantly second-guessing my every move. Lutheran theology freed me. God seeks me out. He comes to me despite my sin. He does it all.

[Lovedtodeath]

This is another belief I hold in tension. I see scriptures that speak of punishment (Isaiah 53) and I also see God relentlessly helping us, not casting us off. Like my husband said "If God truly felt I deserved Hell then he wouldn't have died for me".

[Whereneverever]

See, for me personally, Lutheran theology does not teach that God turns his back on you. Decision theology had me constantly second-guessing my every move. Lutheran theology freed me. God seeks me out. He comes to me despite my sin. He does it all.

 

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

How are these then to be understood?

 

he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him. John 3:36

 

we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires

of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3

[Whereneverever]

How are these then to be understood?

 

he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him. John 3:36

 

we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires

of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3

 

I believe those to be referencing original sin.

[Lovedtodeath]

Lutherans do have history... I can't word it correctly.

Here is a quote:Lutherans point to the ancient doctrines of the one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church, as delivered once for all in the Scriptures, and as confessed by all Christians in every time and place. For this reason, the early Church, and her Fathers (or “pastors”) and traditions, play an important role in maintaining a unity of faith and practice by ever pointing us to the grace of Christ. Much more could be said here, but of utmost important is the understanding that Lutherans believe the Church, as the body of Christ, has (and always will have) the mind of Christ. There is one Truth, and the Lord Jesus has called all men to unity, or “concordia” in, with and under that one Truth. http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/what-is-a-lutheran/

 

http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/2012/07/15/lutheran-and-they-didnt-even-know-it-faithful-church-fathers/

Edited November 6, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Whereneverever]

Here is a quote:Lutherans point to the ancient doctrines of the one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church, as delivered once for all in the Scriptures, and as confessed by all Christians in every time and place. For this reason, the early Church, and her Fathers (or “pastorsâ€) and traditions, play an important role in maintaining a unity of faith and practice by ever pointing us to the grace of Christ. Much more could be said here, but of utmost important is the understanding that Lutherans believe the Church, as the body of Christ, has (and always will have) the mind of Christ. There is one Truth, and the Lord Jesus has called all men to unity, or “concordia†in, with and under that one Truth. http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/what-is-a-lutheran/

 

I'm so glad you are a fan of Rev. Fisk.

You could send some of your questions there, too. :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

See, for me personally, Lutheran theology does not teach that God turns his back on you. Decision theology had me constantly second-guessing my every move. Lutheran theology freed me. God seeks me out. He comes to me despite my sin. He does it all.

That is what I went searching for. I already know this, but to find a church that will agree and not teach my children differently.

 

I'm so glad you are a fan of Rev. Fisk.

You could send some of your questions there, too. :001_smile:

Yes, I have thought about it. I have a non-denom friend who is a contributor to Witnesses for Jesus who is now a fan of his too. Going to bed. Edited November 3, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[milovany]

See, for me personally, Lutheran theology does not teach that God turns his back on you. Decision theology had me constantly second-guessing my every move. Lutheran theology freed me. God seeks me out. He comes to me despite my sin. He does it all.

 

Great! I love what you wrote about (and agree with the comment about decision theology). I don't know much about Lutheran doctrine, I admit. My thought in writing above was with Calvinistic reformed theology in mind.

 

I believe those to be referencing original sin.

 

Hmmmm, I guess original sin would need to be defined. I think the common understanding of original sin is that Adam and Eve put sin on all mankind always and ever. The early church did not ascribe to this from what I understand. We all do sin because we are born under the fall, we live in a fallen world, but our sin is our own, not something inherited from Adam and Eve in that sense. Here's an Eastern Orthodox article on The View of Sin in the Early Church.

 

Here is a quote: Lutherans point to the ancient doctrines of the one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church, as delivered once for all in the Scriptures, and as confessed by all Christians in every time and place....

 

It doesn't seem as if this statement is actually scriptural. In Jude 1:3, it says, "ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." By what/whom was this faith delivered? It certainly wasn't the New Testament Scriptures because there weren't any when this new faith was delivered by Christ. The faith was delivered orally by Christ (we have no record of His leaving anything for us in writing) and by His hand-chosen apostles who'd been with Him for three years, who were also teaching orally what they had received from Christ. While there were some letters being passed around as well, most of the teaching at the time was oral and was being brought from place to place by the bishops. The Church is called the pillar and foundation of the truth, not the Scriptures.

 

The Church gifts us with the fullness of the faith.

 

Look at verses 17-21 in the same book of Jude. We're exhorted to remember the words which were spoken. These teachings were kept pure by the Holy Spirit. If He could keep the Scriptures pure at a later date -- even though written by "mere men" -- could He not also keep pure the oral teachings that were spoken "mere men"? Of course. :001_smile: "All things are possible with God."

 

Just a thought because of that one statement. It's not a scripturally honest statement. I wish Luther would have continued seeking out the church that predated the Catholic church that had the things against which he was protesting. The original church didn't need to be re-formed 1500 years after the fact because the original church was still there where it had begun -- in the east. One bishop was in the west (the pope); four bishops were in the east, and they continued on after the Roman bishop broke off from them.

 

NOTE: We eastern Christians understand that some of the faith headed west through Rome; we do not at all say God is not in the West. But the church in the East still remains as it always has; it has not gone through the huge changes, or the multitudinous fracturing, that has been seen in the west.

Edited November 3, 2012 by milovaný

[MrsMommy]

Rev. Fisk is going to be live on Issues, Etc. 24 in about 30 minutes (9 a.m. central time) for those who are interested. He's going to be talking about the Lord's Supper. Streaming live at issuesetc.org He should be on for about two hours, so if you miss the beginning, there's plenty of time to tune in!

Edited November 3, 2012 by MrsMommy

[8circles]

nevermind.

[Lovedtodeath]

Peter calls Paul's letters scriptures: "just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

[Lovedtodeath]

Rev. Fisk is going to be live on Issues, Etc. 24 in about 30 minutes (9 a.m. central time) for those who are interested. He's going to be talking about the Lord's Supper. Streaming live at issuesetc.org He should be on for about two hours, so if you miss the beginning, there's plenty of time to tune in!

Here is a quote from Rev. Fisk, which is the norm of Lutheranism, which is one thing that causes me to choose the Lutheran church:

The reason that the argument is not conclusive is because it rests on subtle leaps of our own reasoning beyond the text. As individuals, we have the freedom to read a text in this or that way, letting our reason guide us. However, we cannot bind other individual’s consciences on where matters are still foggy.

[milovany]

Peter calls Paul's letters scriptures: "just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

 

Thank you! I see that the word is used there, but historically, the new testament letters were not considered "the Bible" until hundreds of years later. This Greek word graphe can mean just writings in general. I agree that later Paul's writings did become part of Holy Scripture, I was just saying that they were not approached at the time the sole/foundational manner referred to in the Jude section, which speaks of the faith was being handed down. Thank you for showing me that, though!

Edited November 3, 2012 by milovaný

[Lovedtodeath]

So I sent a question in to the worldvieweverlasting blog! :)

 

Thank you! I see that the word is used there, but historically, the new testament letters were not considered "the Bible" until hundreds of years later.

I still disagree. It seems to me that Peter is putting Paul's writings in the same category as "the other writings".

[milovany]

So I sent a question in to the worldvieweverlasting blog! :)

 

I still disagree. It seems to me that Peter is putting Paul's writings in the same category as "the other writings".

 

Possibly! But you still see oral teaching/tradition mentioned as much as or more than writings as the means for the handing down of the faith to the new church. The believers weren't poring over the letters being passed around, trying to figure out how to live the faith based on them. They were living the life of the Church that the Holy Spirit transmitted to them through Christ's oral teachings and that of the apostles. It's fine! Just saying that I don't believe Luther's quote is in line with the actual practice of our church (that Scripture was the means for handing down the faith).

Edited November 3, 2012 by milovaný

[Whereneverever]

Rev. Fisk is going to be live on Issues, Etc. 24 in about 30 minutes (9 a.m. central time) for those who are interested. He's going to be talking about the Lord's Supper. Streaming live at issuesetc.org He should be on for about two hours, so if you miss the beginning, there's plenty of time to tune in!

 

Are you following Wilken's kitten posts on fb through this? It's hilarious.

[Whereneverever]

http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=24179

 

Here are some good explanations on the Lutheran Sola Scriptura and the use of tradition.

[Lovedtodeath]

I have received PMs reminding me to be careful to search for official documentation of a church's beliefs, so I thought I would share some more quotes that include the beliefs most important to me.

 

If you are concerned about the Lutheran church's official view of the Eucharist... Here is a quote from October 12th:

 

Luke 2:29-30

Simeon's words ring through our hearts as well in Holy Communion, we hold Immanuel, "God with us," in our hands as we hold His real presence in the bread and wine. In our liturgy's Nunc Dimittis, we unite with Simeon and saints on both sides of death, praising God for His salvation and singing the words first sung in the temple two thousand years ago. We too can depart in peace-- whether it be from the celebration of worship to the day ahead or whether it be from our days on earth to the celebration ahead.

Portals of Prayer is a quarterly publication of the Concordia Publishing House of St. Louis, Missouri, the denominational publisher for The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod Edited November 4, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

The devotion for October 13th is titled Sick with Sin. There is discussion of how Jesus baffled the Jews by hanging our with sinners, including the lowest of the low, tax collectors who worked for an invading government, fraudulently auditing, scamming and pocketing money.

 

Luke 5:32

Jesus makes His purpose clear. Why heal those who are healthy? Why forgive those without sin? Of course, no one is spiritually healthy. We are all sick with sin. We've been traitors, thieves and scummy sinners. With relief we recognize that Jesus will sit with us. With joy we welcome our fellow tax collectors to be in Jesus' presence and hear His Word. Thanks to God's healing forgiveness, we can come to His Table, looking forward to a feast that never ends.

Portals of Prayer is a quarterly publication of the Concordia Publishing House of St. Louis, Missouri, the denominational publisher for The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod Edited November 4, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[8circles]

I have received PMs reminding me to be careful to search for official documentation of a church's beliefs, so I thought I would share some more quotes that include the beliefs most important to me.

 

:confused:

 

If a church's beliefs are being misunderstood or misrepresented in this thread then letting us all know would be helpful.

[Lovedtodeath]

:confused:

 

If a church's beliefs are being misunderstood or misrepresented in this thread then letting us all know would be helpful.

Of course going straight to the source is always a good idea and, well, you know, we really do have to be careful... as members of some churches (and not just one) definitely misrepresented their beliefs to me and others in the past...

 

I am glad to do my part to clear that up.

 

Do you know that someone actually asked me if attending a Baptist church meant that I thought baptism saves? :lol: (Just the opposite is true of the Baptist church.)

 

I see misunderstandings like this all of the time.

 

I can see the unity that many churches and denominations have, even when they cannot. Most of the time when Christians are arguing they find that they have more common ground then they thought. Even some doctrinal matters are about misunderstandings and/or semantics.

[8circles]

Of course going straight to the source is always a good idea and, well, you know, we really do have to be careful... as members of some churches (and not just one) definitely misrepresented their beliefs to me and others in the past...

 

I am glad to do my part to clear that up.

 

Do you know that someone actually asked me if attending a Baptist church meant that I thought baptism saves? :lol: (Just the opposite is true of the Baptist church.)

 

I see misunderstandings like this all of the time.

 

I can see the unity that many churches and denominations have, even when they cannot. Most of the time when Christians are arguing they find that they have more common ground then they thought. Even some doctrinal matters are about misunderstandings and/or semantics.

 

Well, I do agree that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the beliefs of other groups - we've seen plenty of it at the Hive. But isn't this thread about actual believers saying what their group believes with sources to show it? Do people think they're not being honest? Or that they really don't know what they believe? Do some of the groups discussed in this thread have a reputation for being "shady"? I mean really, those Lutherans... what a shady bunch. I'm saying this with a chuckle but I'm seriously confused.

[Whereneverever]

Hey, have you looked at the Lutheran Witness? http://witness.lcms.org/pages/witness.asp

 

I think you may really enjoy it.

 

Higher Things has a great magazine, too.

http://higherthings.org/

[MrsMommy]

Love Pastor Wilken's sense of humor! (I may be biased because he's actually one of my pastors) :)

[Whereneverever]

Love Pastor Wilken's sense of humor! (I may be biased because he's actually one of my pastors) :)

 

Wow, really? Lucky you! I think we need to arrange a LCMS WTM get together.

[mommaduck]

Boiled down, here are the difference:

 

Reformed Baptist and other Baptists believe (generally...fringe sects not counting) that communion is merely symbolic.

Reformed (Presbyterians, some Reformed Baptists, Puritans, Covenanters) believe there is a Grace imparted through communion.

Lutherans believe in Real Presence, but dxo not believe in a change of the elements of the Eucharist.

Catholics and Orthodox believe in Real Presence through a change in the Elements of the Eucharist.

[Lovedtodeath]

Boiled down, here are the difference:

 

Reformed Baptist and other Baptists believe (generally...fringe sects not counting) that communion is merely symbolic.

Reformed (Presbyterians, some Reformed Baptists, Puritans, Covenanters) believe there is a Grace imparted through communion.

Lutherans believe in Real Presence, but do not believe in a change of the elements of the Eucharist.

Catholics and Orthodox believe in Real Presence through a change in the Elements of the Eucharist.

Very helpful sister thank you. :grouphug:

 

This is how I explain to my family: Lutheran's will not change the word of the Lord. "This is my body", but neither do they add explanation as to how that is.

 

history:

Here is a quote:Lutherans point to the ancient doctrines of the one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church, as delivered once for all in the Scriptures, and as confessed by all Christians in every time and place. For this reason, the early Church, and her Fathers (or “pastors”) and traditions, play an important role in maintaining a unity of faith and practice by ever pointing us to the grace of Christ. Much more could be said here, but of utmost important is the understanding that Lutherans believe the Church, as the body of Christ, has (and always will have) the mind of Christ. There is one Truth, and the Lord Jesus has called all men to unity, or “concordia” in, with and under that one Truth. http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/what-is-a-lutheran/

http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/2012/07/15/lutheran-and-they-didnt-even-know-it-faithful-church-fathers/

Edited November 6, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[milovany]

Very helpful sister thank you. :grouphug:

 

This is how I explain to my family: Lutheran's will not change the word of the Lord. "This is my body", but neither do they add explanation as to how that is.

 

Same with the Orthodox. We do not try to explain/define it. "It's a mystery". We often call the Eucharist the Holy Mysteries.

 

A comment about something said above: There ARE some Baptists who believe baptism saves you.

Edited November 5, 2012 by milovaný

[Lovedtodeath]

 

There ARE Baptists who view baptism as the point of salvation and necessary.

Really? I was told that salvation before baptism was an essential teaching and the reason that someone chose the Baptist denomination. :001_huh: I suppost that just goes to show how easy it is to be misinformed about what other denominations/churches/people believe if you don't investigate yourself.

[milovany]

Really? I was told that salvation before baptism was an essential teaching and the reason that someone chose the Baptist denomination. :001_huh: I suppost that just goes to show how easy it is to be misinformed about what other denominations/churches/people believe if you don't investigate yourself.

 

It's just one (or a few) of the sects, not all Baptists. I just recall seeing a discussion between a Baptist and an evangelical about this. He was adamant that baptism was "for the remission of sins" (not just symbolic) and the evangelical was just as adamant that it was just a "public profession of faith; an outward expression of an inner reality."

 

I remember it well because at the time I was on the side of the evangelical but now I do believe that baptism is the born again experience, the "remission of sins" (which does not, in the Orthodox vocabulary, equal "salvation").

[mommaduck]

Same with the Orthodox. We do not try to explain/define it. "It's a mystery". We often call the Eucharist the Holy Mysteries.

 

A comment about something said above: There ARE some Baptists who believe baptism saves you.

 

Yes, this is the difference between Catholics and Orthodox. We believe there is change,but we don't try to explain it. Refer to the term transubstantiation to understand the RC view.

[Lovedtodeath]

I saw a Worldview Everlasting video that explained it this way. Just as we know Jesus is both God and man, we know that we hold both bread and Christ's body in our hands, and drink both wine and Christ's blood.

[Lovedtodeath]

It's just one (or a few) of the sects, not all Baptists. I just recall seeing a discussion between a Baptist and an evangelical about this. He was adamant that baptism was "for the remission of sins" (not just symbolic) and the evangelical was just as adamant that it was just a "public profession of faith; an outward expression of an inner reality."

 

I remember it well because at the time I was on the side of the evangelical but now I do believe that baptism is the born again experience, the "remission of sins" (which does not, in the Orthodox vocabulary, equal "salvation").

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.-- John 3:5

 

The Baptist church I was attending believed that born of Spirit = baptism in the Holy Spirit, but they did not believe that born of water = baptism in water.

 

and I, of course, prefer to take God at His word. ;)

[milovany]

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.-- John 3:5

 

The Baptist church I was attending believed that born of Spirit = baptism in the Holy Spirit, but they did not believe that born of water = baptism in water.

 

and I, of course, prefer to take God at His word. ;)

 

Agreed! At this sacrament, an Orthodox believer is both born of water (through immersion) and born of the Holy Spirit (through anointing with oil). The scriptures line up with the early church practice, as it should be.

[Lovedtodeath]

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

[Lovedtodeath]

I am trying to get this straight: my baptism at a non-denominational church stands, no need to be re-baptized... but I don't want to attend a non-denominational church because they do not provide the sacrament of the Eucharist... that doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't it be that either a non-denominational church can provide both sacraments or neither?

[milovany]

I am trying to get this straight: my baptism at a non-denominational church stands, no need to be re-baptized... but I don't want to attend a non-denominational church because they do not provide the sacrament of the Eucharist... that doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't it be that either a non-denominational church can provide both sacraments or neither?

 

 

It's probably one of those things that kind of depends. From the Orthodox perspective, some converts are re-baptized, and some are not, as they come into the church. (We were, even though we'd been baptized previously in a protestant church.) Some bishops are okay with a previous baptism as long as it was done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with three immersions. Some bishops have all converts baptized. Whether re-baptized or not, all converts are chrismated with oil (if being re-baptized, it's part of the same service; if being chrismated, it's its own service with its own prayers, from what I understand).

 

But you're asking the question from the non-denominational perspective, and it's a good question! One worth a look. Adding the beliefs about the Eucharist into the mix is probably wise, to try and see how/where God's truth stands.

[milovany]

double post