so me and church... you were right.

[milovany]

Don't start with me, woman!:tongue_smilie::lol:

 

{Grin}

 

And for those that mentioned the Treasury of Daily Prayer. Did you guys know that CPH has an app that is kinda like TDP? It's called "Pray Now" and had daily readings from psalms, OT, NT, and gospels, church fathers readings, and hymns. It has a listing of canticles, prayers, AND had the coolest journaling feature. CPH also has the liturgical calendar available for downloading onto you phone's calendar. So cool.

 

I noted that the "see inside" link of the above prayer book is a pdf link of the whole book. Not sure if they realize that have that linked for all the world to print out, but there you go.

[Lovedtodeath]

Okay without quoting me, tell me if the Lutheran Church is going to deny me membership/confirmation if I believe this:

 

"God's Grace is free for all and compelling but not overwhelming. The Holy Spirit is central and takes the initiative at every point in the Christian life. He draws us, He guides us, but we respond or not. That is free will."

 

I like their very humble approach to salvation being all God's doing, but I feel this issue is a paradox, just like the others.

[Whereneverever]

I won't quote. It's not quite how we phrase things but it shouldn't bar you from membership. Do you have a Lutheran catechism? I think you would have this answered by the third article explanation of the creed. :001_smile:

Edited October 17, 2012 by theretohere

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I won't quote. It's not quite how we phrase things but it shouldn't bar you from membership. Do you have a Lutheran catechism? I think you would have this answered by the third article explanation of the creed. :001_smile:

Okay, looks like I need to get one.

[Carol in Cal.]

Okay, looks like I need to get one.

 

Here you go:

 

The Third Article of the Apostles' Creed

 

SANCTIFICATION

 

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

 

What does this mean?

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel,

enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith.

 

In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.

In this Christian church He daily and richly forgives all my sins and the sins of all believers.

 

On the Last Day He will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ.

 

This is most certainly true.

[GWOB]

You know, as LCMS Christians, we are all on the same page (being a confessional church). However, some of us are words on that page and some of us are really creative doodles. Same general page, different areas of the page.

 

My poor, long suffering Pastor confirmed me despite the multitude of questions I had. He knew my political sympathies, yet acknowledged I was rather orthodox in my religious views.

 

On free will. One of the most beautiful things (to me, coming from a fundie, evangelical background) about the LCMS church is the acknowledgement of the desperate need of a Savior. We know we are flawed human beings. We give God the credit for our salvation. Yes, you can choose to turn away from God. But how awesome is it to know that God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit brings us (in our pathetic human forms) to salvation? What's the LCMS saying? "For by grace alone, are you saved alone, by Christ alone." Something like that.

 

Oh, and props to Carol for giving you Luther's own words on the subject. Luther's Small Catechism is phenomenal. It's like the Lutheran cliff notes. Your local LCMS church would be happy to give you a copy.

[Whereneverever]

Here you go:

 

The Third Article of the Apostles' Creed

 

SANCTIFICATION

 

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

 

What does this mean?

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel,

enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith.

 

In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.

In this Christian church He daily and richly forgives all my sins and the sins of all believers.

 

On the Last Day He will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ.

 

This is most certainly true.

 

Man, Carol, you make me look lazy! :lol:

[Carol in Cal.]

Man, Carol, you make me look lazy! :lol:

 

Just going with your good idea!

[Lovedtodeath]

Well, if that is what I should agree with then that is a relief. I have a friend who is in seminary to be a Lutheran pastor and he jumps on things if my wording isn't quite right, and I was worried.

Here you go:

 

The Third Article of the Apostles' Creed

 

SANCTIFICATION

 

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

 

What does this mean?

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel,

enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith.

 

In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.

In this Christian church He daily and richly forgives all my sins and the sins of all believers.

 

On the Last Day He will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ.

 

This is most certainly true.

[Lovedtodeath]

This issue though, of law and gospel, is the biggest issue for me in choosing a denomination. I spent 30 years in a cult being convicted of my sin before I heard the gospel. My children will not go through that despair. The more we hear the gospel the closer we become to our Savior and the less we sin, not because someone is preaching law at us, but because He teaches us individually.

 

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/gospel-broken/

[8circles]

Well, if that is what I should agree with then that is a relief. I have a friend who is in seminary to be a Lutheran pastor and he jumps on things if my wording isn't quite right, and I was worried.

 

I think I know who you mean. I think you need to stop listening to him, honestly. That kind of criticism just isn't helpful. :grouphug:

[Whereneverever]

If you can subscribe to that with relief, then you are good! Those are the exact words we use. :001_smile:

 

Proper Law and Gospel is a huge Lutheran thing. Is the pastor of the local church you went to up for sitting and having some talks about it?

[Whereneverever]

I think I know who you mean. I think you need to stop listening to him, honestly. That kind of criticism just isn't helpful. :grouphug:

 

Totally. And as deeply as I love our seminarians... They tend to be a lot of fire and not a lot of wisdom and care. That takes time!;)

[Lovedtodeath]

If you can subscribe to that with relief, then you are good! Those are the exact words we use. :001_smile:

 

Proper Law and Gospel is a huge Lutheran thing. Is the pastor of the local church you went to up for sitting and having some talks about it?

Yes. He told me that we could meet him at the church, at the library, or our house, whatever we are comfortable with, and there is fellowship time in the fellowship hall after every service. (Which I am very excited about! One of the problems with our old church was that everyone would just listen to the sermon and then leave.)

[Carol in Cal.]

 

On free will. One of the most beautiful things (to me, coming from a fundie, evangelical background) about the LCMS church is the acknowledgement of the desperate need of a Savior. We know we are flawed human beings. We give God the credit for our salvation. Yes, you can choose to turn away from God. But how awesome is it to know that God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit brings us (in our pathetic human forms) to salvation? What's the LCMS saying? "For by grace alone, are you saved alone, by Christ alone." Something like that.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves--it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV--because that's the way I memorized it. But still understandable I think.)

 

Luther's Small Catechism is phenomenal. It's like the Lutheran cliff notes. Your local LCMS church would be happy to give you a copy.

 

Or you can look it up online:

 

http://www.cph.org/t-topic-catechism.aspx

 

I admire CPH for posting this in its entirety for free given that they also sell it.

[Lovedtodeath]

Yeah, Momoflaw, James jumped all over me for using the word accept instead of receive. I looked the words up in several different ways and for all I know they are synonyms unless you have learned his particular theology.

 

I have many friends who are Calvinists or Spurgeonists and I just don't agree with them (but I do NOT call them false teachers like some people. Goodness! I hate divisivness! Anyway... James' pickiness had me worried.

 

Or you can look it up online:

 

http://www.cph.org/t-topic-catechism.aspx

 

I admire CPH for posting this in its entirety for free given that they also sell it.

 

On free will. One of the most beautiful things (to me, coming from a fundie, evangelical background) about the LCMS church is the acknowledgement of the desperate need of a Savior. We know we are flawed human beings. We give God the credit for our salvation.

YES. Each and every one of us.

 

Thank you.

[Lovedtodeath]

update: I saw James say this in a post, so I sent him a PM:

 

JAMES: We see this very same approach taken in the freewill vs predestination argument and elsewhere. Some things God has not meant for us to understand. There ARE mysteries in the text.

 

ME: I got the impression that you were arguing against freewill. I was even worried that the church would not allow me membership if I did not also.

 

JAMES: No Carmen, I cannot argue against freewill because God's scriptures clearly state that is His gift to us. I also however cannot argue against predestination for the very same reason. I have to live in the tension. Not to do so is to accept my judgment as superior to God's revelation. Even if I cannot fully grasp the paradox of that revelation, I am but his creature and must accept it until such time as He chooses to make it better known. If He ever does. If my words were clumsy I'm sorry.

 

So yay, got that all cleared up!

[Lovedtodeath]

So I just discovered the catechism due to this thread. Then I was watching Jonathon Fisk and he explains that the catechism is where you need to start if you are witnessing to an unbeliever. Lightbulb! Yeah, that's right! I love it.

 

Starting at 11:25

Edited October 19, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

I would love to talk about some things in this group. I noticed it isn't really active... http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/group.php?groupid=33

[Lovedtodeath]

Do United Methodists believe that the bread and wine physically or chemically change into Christ’s flesh and blood in this sacrament?

 

No, we believe that the change is spiritual. They signify the body and blood of Christ for us, helping us to be Christ’s body in the world today, redeemed by Christ’s blood. We pray over the bread and the cup that they may make us one with Christ, “one with each other, and one in service to all the world.†http://www.umc.org/site/c.lwL4KnN1LtH/b.2311293/

Okay, revisiting this thread and.... no.

[Lovedtodeath]

Okay, sorry to bump up again, but this book goes along with the title of the thread. All of us called to a church with "more" might want to check it out.

 

Broken: 7 ''Christian'' Rules That Every Christian Ought to Break as Often as Possible

 

Here's the first 28 pages free:

http://www.cph.org/pdf/124389.pdf

[mschickie]

I can tell you about the United Methodist using grape juice for communion. It all started back in the temperance movement. A Methodist by the name of Thomas Welch (he was interested in the temperance movement and fascinated about the new process of pasteurization) decided to pasteurize grape juice to use as communion in his church. His son marketed it to other churches who were interested in the temperance movement. It is from this that the Welch's Grape Juice company grew.

 

If you have any questions about the United Methodist Church just let me know. I started attending our church 12 years ago before that I had been raised in the Roman Catholic faith.

[Lovedtodeath]

I can tell you about the United Methodist using grape juice for communion. It all started back in the temperance movement. A Methodist by the name of Thomas Welch (he was interested in the temperance movement and fascinated about the new process of pasteurization) decided to pasteurize grape juice to use as communion in his church. His son marketed it to other churches who were interested in the temperance movement. It is from this that the Welch's Grape Juice company grew.

 

If you have any questions about the United Methodist Church just let me know. I started attending our church 12 years ago before that I had been raised in the Roman Catholic faith.

Thank you!

[8circles]

I can tell you about the United Methodist using grape juice for communion. It all started back in the temperance movement. A Methodist by the name of Thomas Welch (he was interested in the temperance movement and fascinated about the new process of pasteurization) decided to pasteurize grape juice to use as communion in his church. His son marketed it to other churches who were interested in the temperance movement. It is from this that the Welch's Grape Juice company grew.

 

If you have any questions about the United Methodist Church just let me know. I started attending our church 12 years ago before that I had been raised in the Roman Catholic faith.

 

Who knew? Thanks for sharing that.

[Lovedtodeath]

I have listened to radio program from Whitehorse Inn... is that Reformed? It was a wonderful sermon. I also listened to one from the United Methodist Church, which also spoke to me...

 

I just believe in the Eucharist, the real presence of Christ. His body given to me, to put in my body, to give me life...

 

Now that I have experienced this, I don't think I can attend a church that doesnt teach that.

[JenniferB]

Here's the first 28 pages free:

http://www.cph.org/pdf/124389.pdf

 

Wow, I can really relate to page 16. I read the 28 pages, and it seems like it's a call back to Sola Scriptura. Would that be an accurate 1 sentence summary?

 

Before I became an Orthodox Christian, I belonged to a church that based everything they did on the Bible only. I went from "Spirit led" to "Word of God only" and after 10 years in that tradition I was still on page 16 of his book. The problem I had in that tradition is that The Word includes things, participatory things that make me go, "what's that?" and "why did he say that?" and "I want that!" The Word is and was a light to my path, but there was still things that made me go "huh?" "Taste and see that the Lord is good." It's more than reading and thinking and knowing. The Word itself bears witness to that.

 

On page 20 he says, "There is one attack the devil uses to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ - remove Jesus." He explains this as the devil removing Jesus' words and therefore Jesus. Then on the next page he says he will teach us how the devil uses the good things God gave us to trust in *yourself.* How do you not trust in *yourself* when it's just you and The Word? You are reading the Word, so you must decide what the Word means. It seems to me that someone in this position must rely on himself very much without any other teachers, traditions, or examples to interpret the Word.

 

He had me at page 16, but by page 21 he lost me in that he wants to teach us how to avoid being deceived by the devil by avoiding trusting in ourselves, and the only tool to do this is The Bible. It seems like that is what he's saying. I'm guessing that he'll use a bunch of Bible verses in his book, then he will proceed to interpret them for us. This has broken his #1 goal for the book, which is to only trust in The Word, but if we listen to him we are placing our trust in the Word as interpreted by the author. This is a contradiction.

 

On page 22 he says, "In the pure Word of God, we will find true purpose for our lives built on a foundation infinitely more solid than the shifting sands of "me." Does he address how to accomplish this? I agree that the "shifting sands of me" are a problem. It seems like just to follow his rules we have to rely on "me." For example, rule #1 is to avoid mysticism. How does one recognize it but to rely on one's self. I've heard Orthodox Christianity described in derogatory ways and compared to mysticism. I would say that is a "shifting sands of me" opinion. My opinion obviously differs and I consider Orthodox Christianity authentic and solidly historic and apostolic Christianity. Is that a "shifting sands of me" opinion? The author of the book might make that conclusion because of some of our practices, which appear on the surface to be mystical. We even use the word "mystical" in our liturgy. :glare:

 

Alright, I'm rambling. I'll stop now. Lovedtodeath, if you care to continue the conversation by enlightening me as to what he means by not trusting in ourselves and how he actually accomplishes that, I'd be curious to know. I can't see how that's possible without The Church with all the tools woven together that make up a beautiful tapestry of what it means and is to practice Christianity.

[JenniferB]

I just believe in the Eucharist, the real presence of Christ. His body given to me, to put in my body, to give me life...

 

Now that I have experienced this, I don't think I can attend a church that doesnt teach that.

 

:iagree:

[AmericanMom]

"Taste and see that the Lord is good." It's more than reading and thinking and knowing. The Word itself bears witness to that.

 

I just believe in the Eucharist, the real presence of Christ. His body given to me, to put in my body, to give me life...

 

Now that I have experienced this, I don't think I can attend a church that doesnt teach that.

 

:iagree:

Edited November 1, 2012 by AmericanMom

[Lovedtodeath]

On page 22 he says, "In the pure Word of God, we will find true purpose for our lives built on a foundation infinitely more solid than the shifting sands of "me." Does he address how to accomplish this? I agree that the "shifting sands of me" are a problem. It seems like just to follow his rules we have to rely on "me." For example, rule #1 is to avoid mysticism. How does one recognize it but to rely on one's self. I've heard Orthodox Christianity described in derogatory ways and compared to mysticism. I would say that is a "shifting sands of me" opinion. My opinion obviously differs and I consider Orthodox Christianity authentic and solidly historic and apostolic Christianity. Is that a "shifting sands of me" opinion? The author of the book might make that conclusion because of some of our practices, which appear on the surface to be mystical. We even use the word "mystical" in our liturgy. :glare:

Jennifer, thank you for your time in replying. You are such a blessing. I didn't read all 28 pages. I only got through the first few and then I only skimmed your response. My family is really not giving me alone time today,

 

but yeah, I noticed this in a video that the author did. It is really upsetting me. I am going to have to talk to the pastor about it, but if I do then where else can I go? I really don't feel I belong anywhere else right now.

 

 

"What they are really saying is my emotive feeling of God's presence is the proof of his existence and my salvation, proof of the Holy Spirit and my Christianity. and so how I feel and experience ilfe is what Christianity is all about. That they are saying this is something called mysticism and it is a significant problem. This leads to almost every heresy that exists. That I am somehow going to find God outside of His word...."

 

Whoa, what?

 

When I was saved my heart sang for the first time. I felt Christ's presence. I still feel the Holy Spirit guiding me at times. And doesn't the Bible say Christ will dwell in your hearts, (Ephesians 3:14-21) and the Holy Spirit will teach us? (John 14, 1 John 2:27) HE even led me to look at the sacramental churches...

 

It sounds like the author is denying all of that. (okay, I do see that he said we won't find God outside of His word... I can see what he is saying there. I know someone like that who claims to be a born again Christian but never reads nor quotes the Bible and thinks they are some kind of prophet... hmmm, maybe that is what he meant and it just comes across wrong to me.)

 

In another video I see him equating being born again with water baptism. I disagree. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit first. Water baptism came later. Yes. John 3:5 says we must be born of water (baptized in water) and Spirit (baptized in Spirit). I just don't think that always happens at the same time. Acts has evidence of this.

 

So that is something else that is bothering me. If the church is going to dogmatically hold to this view that Born of Spirit only occurs with water baptism and my kids know that was not the case for their parents then how are my kids going to trust that those teaching at the church and their parents really are Born of Spirit and led by God (Romans 8)?

 

Maybe that isn't even what the author meant? Maybe the Lutheran church doesn't hold to these views the way it is coming across to us?

Edited October 31, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

I can't see how that's possible without The Church with all the tools woven together that make up a beautiful tapestry of what it means and is to practice Christianity.

Lutherans do have history... I can't word it correctly. I am too new to Luthranism, and too tired and did I mention constant distractions? Oh my family today. I want to hide in my room!

[Susan in TN]

I have listened to radio program from Whitehorse Inn... is that Reformed? It was a wonderful sermon. .

 

Yes, they are reformed - I love those guys.

[Lovedtodeath]

Yes, they are reformed - I love those guys.

How do I find a church like that?

 

I am still visiting around. ;)

[milovany]

From what I understand, you wouldn't be able to have both reformed theology and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I could be wrong, but from what I understand, the "dark side" believes in a strictly symbolic Lord's Supper.

 

The Eucharist is the single most important aspect to my faith now. It's because of it, and for it, that any furtherance in my Christian life comes. Everything else, even in the church, revolves around the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist.

Edited October 31, 2012 by milovaný

[Lovedtodeath]

The Eucharist is the single most important aspect to my faith now. It's because of it, and for it, that any furtherance in my Christian life comes. Everything else, even in the church, revolves around the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist.

Big beaming hugging glowing smiley! (couldn't find one)

 

Thank you sister. I would add, especially in the church.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[JenniferB]

From what I understand, you wouldn't be able to have both reformed theology and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I could be wrong, but from what I understand, the "dark side" believes in a strictly symbolic Lord's Supper.

 

The Eucharist is the single most important aspect to my faith now. It's because of it, and for it, that any furtherance in my Christian life comes. Everything else, even in the church, revolves around the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist.

 

Totally amen!

[Lovedtodeath]

I was recently sent this link about the history of Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox. Catholics may not like it.

 

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_luther.aspx

Luther Had His Chance

 

It was inevitable that, sooner or later, the Protestant Churches, protesting against Roman autocracy, should seek to find out about a Church which had made such a protest from the earliest times.

[milovany]

I was recently sent this link about the history of Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox. Catholics may not like it.

Luther Had His Chance

 

Thanks for that. I knew that Luther had realized that the Eastern church might have something to offer, including a valid claim to historicity, and that a correspondence had gone on, but hadn't seen the details. I think you see what is described in the summary of the article a bit in Orthodoxy -- there comes a point when you just have to stop trying to reason and clarify every jot and tittle, and just "come and see." The Orthodox faith cannot be understood outside of living the faith within the Church; we can talk about it a bit, but the best thing, really, is just to attend church. Even on the Exploring Orthodoxy social group, the underlying message (in the midst of the questions) is go to church and ask your priest.

 

Advent is coming up (it begins Nov. 15). This would be a great time for anyone interested to spend a season in the church, as it's a time when we focus on the Incarnation of Christ. Advent goes to Dec. 25, and then we celebrate the 12 days of Christmas from Dec. 25 through early January.

 

Side note: OrthodoxInfo.com isn't one of my favorite places for gathering info. about the Orthodox church on the web. It can be pretty polemic sometimes. I much prefer the Discovering Orthodoxy page at the Antiochian.org website.

Edited October 31, 2012 by milovaný

[Lovedtodeath]

Wow, I can really relate to page 16. I read the 28 pages, and it seems like it's a call back to Sola Scriptura. Would that be an accurate 1 sentence summary?

Up to page 21. I say no because I know who wrote the book. He also says that our confessions are God's word. For example if I say to you "baptism makes you pure so that you can present yourself to God" That is God's word... in my own words. But still God's word, and

 

so far I don't see Sola Scriptura, I see that we must not take scripture out. Entirely different.

 

Okay, I don't know if that helped. Still reading.

 

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. In a practical way, in the Lutheran church, I see this applied. So we have Bible reading, whole chapters at a time, with no commentary. We have the confessions and the Lord's prayer. Out of everything in the services, the sermon given by the pastor is the shortest part.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[GWOB]

I was recently sent this link about the history of Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox. Catholics may not like it.

 

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_luther.aspx

Luther Had His Chance

 

 

:lol: Mu Catholic friends call me a closet Catholic. If there was an EO church within 60 miles, I'm sure they would feel the same way;).

 

Look, I found my home, for now, in the Lutheran church. I may feel led to explore different options later, but I'm good for now. Maybe I can address, in a pathetic way, some of your concerns.

 

The emotion thing. The first thing you have to understand about the LCMS church is that it is German in origin. Speaking in completely stereotypical terms, Germans aren't emotional. Why did this mostly French gal join the LCMS church? Jesus is more than an unreliable emotion I feel. After I left the LAW-only Baptist church, I mostly attended non-denominational churches. The ones I attended were emotion-heavy, complete with tons of emotional music. I like to make food analogies. I got the cheese, sour cream, and bacon-covered potatoes from those non-denom, emotional churches. But I wanted the meat. I craved the meat. The meat was the theology and the real body and blood of Christ.

 

The salvation thing. I was saved 2,000 years ago when Christ died on the cross. Nothing I could ever do would ever earn that salvation. He comes to me. The Holy Spirit came to me through the waters of Baptism. The Trinity does it all. I just puddle along and try to make God happy. I fail constantly, but through His grace, I am saved. This kinda ties into the emotion thing. When you bring emotion into the equation, you feel as though you have to either feel or do something to be saved. Salvation has already been done. Of course, Salvation is still working to this day. I see it in Communion and Baptism. It is a real, tangible thing to me. Yes, I still get emotional during the Liturgy, but I like to call it feeling God's presence.

 

I'm not a cradle Lutheran, and I may be misrepresenting the LCMS beliefs, but this is my best understanding.

[Lovedtodeath]

You sound upset...

 

Even with all of my questions I am, like you, still most likely going to be at a Lutheran church as my home.

The salvation thing. I was saved 2,000 years ago when Christ died on the cross. Nothing I could ever do would ever earn that salvation.

I did not say saved or salvation. I said Born of Spirit.

 

As for emotions, I believe that people can get very emotional without God's presence... but when God's Spirit communicates with me, many times the only way I have to describe that is how it feels. We are limited in our words. John 3 tells us that, along with 1 Corinthians 2.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[GWOB]

You sound upset...

 

Even with all of my questions I am, like you, still most likely going to be at a Lutheran church as my home. I did not say saved or salvation. I said Born of Spirit.

 

No no no! Not upset at all! Just incredibly freed from the whole "Am I really doing/feeling enough to be really saved" thing.

 

Born of the Spirit. Hmmmm. Well, I consider myself Born of the Spirit thanks to my Baptism. I'm not sure if that is a valid LCMS thing. I can say the Holy Spirit led me to that belief, but I completely acknowledge that my sinful nature may have something to do with my beliefs. The biggest thing I love about the LCMS is that I have the freedom to just not know. I have to step out on faith for some things. But it's ok if I doubt or just don't don't know.

 

The Sunday School lesson I taught this week was on doubting. We used Hezekiah as an example. I told my students that it's ok to doubt, but you should maybe consider falling on your knees in prayer shortly after that. Let's just say my knees are callused;). I go to the LCMS because the real body and blood are there, and there aren't too many rules for me to forget to follow:lol:.

 

And I'm really not mad/upset. God and I have called a truce for now.

[Lovedtodeath]

Sorry, my kids don't sleep without me and my daughter was wanting me to put her back to bed, so I wasn't communicating well.

So that is something else that is bothering me. If the church is going to dogmatically hold to this view then how am I not going to question their salvation, or they not question mine? I am pretty sure I could handle it but how are my kids going to? :confused:

Oh look at that, I did say salvation. You can't blame me for lapsing into Baptist speech without even realizing it. lol. I will edit.

 

As for the Orthodox link called Luther had His Chance, well that is obviously written from the Orthodox perspective. I enjoyed seeing what they couldn't reconcile... pretty much the same things I agree with the Lutheran church on.

[GWOB]

Sorry, my kids don't sleep without me and my daughter was wanting me to put her back to bed, so I wasn't communicating well.Oh look at that, I did say salvation. You can't blame me for lapsing into Baptist speech without even realizing it. lol. I will edit.

 

As for the Orthodox link called Luther had His Chance, well that is obviously written from the Orthodox perspective. I enjoyed seeing what they couldn't reconcile... pretty much the same things I agree with the Lutheran church on.

 

:lol: My dh has been on night shift for the last 3 weeks. I do not sleep well without dh:001_wub:. That makes me a little crazy and incoherent.

[Lovedtodeath]

okay edited: So that is something else that is bothering me. If the church is going to dogmatically hold to this view that Born of Spirit only occurs with water baptism and my kids know that was not the case for their parents then how are my kids going to trust that those teaching at the church and their parents really are Born of Spirit and led by God (Romans 8)?

 

No no no! Not upset at all! Just incredibly freed from the whole "Am I really doing/feeling enough to be really saved" thing.

Yes. My daughter wants to get baptized but she is still stuck wondering "Am I really saved? How do I know if I am really saved?"

 

I like the Lutheran view of the sacraments. I can hear the word of God and believe that Christ died for sinners. I can be baptized and believe that his death and resurrection apply to ME. I can eat His flesh and drink His blood and know that He gave these for ME.

[GWOB]

I was recently sent this link about the history of Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox. Catholics may not like it.

 

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_luther.aspx

Luther Had His Chance

 

 

Crud. Milovany just may win the whole Jesus argument:lol:;). That was a fascinating article.

[GWOB]

okay edited: So that is something else that is bothering me. If the church is going to dogmatically hold to this view that Born of Spirit only occurs with water baptism and my kids know that was not the case for their parents then how are my kids going to trust that those teaching at the church and their parents really are Born of Spirit and led by God (Romans 8)?

 

Yes. My daughter wants to get baptized but she is still stuck wondering "Am I really saved? How do I know if I am really saved?"

 

I like the Lutheran view of the sacraments. I can hear the word of God and believe that Christ died for sinners. I can be baptized and believe that his death and resurrection apply to ME. I can eat His flesh and drink His blood and know that He gave these for ME.

 

My kids were baptized at ages 8, 5, and 16 months. Lutherans don't really, truly believe you will not enter the Kingdom if you are not baptized. My kids knew Jesus before they were baptized. It's just that the sacrament of Baptism should not be ignored. In my older kids, I just saw so much more spiritual growth after their baptism.

[Lovedtodeath]

My kids were baptized at ages 8, 5, and 16 months. Lutherans don't really, truly believe you will not enter the Kingdom if you are not baptized.

Yes I know.

In my older kids, I just saw so much more spiritual growth after their baptism.

This makes sense to me because I can see that I had lost some of my growth for a while and that I needed the Eucharist.

[Lovedtodeath]

Jeremias concurred with the eighth and ninth articles in the Confession. The former says that Sacraments do not lose their validity even when administered by evil priests.

 

 

To the fourteenth, which states that only ordained priests should preach or administer the Sacraments, the Patriarch agrees, so long as the ordination has been correctly performed and the hierarchy canonically organized. He clearly doubted whether this was the case with the Lutheran Church.

hmm

He concurs also with the seventeenth article, which foretells the coming of Christ to judge the world and to reward the faithful with eternal life and punish the wicked with eternal torment. He seems to have been unperturbed by the implied denial of the doctrine of Purgatory.

I thought purgatory was only a Roman Catholic teaching? Edited October 31, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[....]

In a practical way, in the Lutheran church, I see this applied. So we have Bible reading, whole chapters at a time, with no commentary. We have the confessions and the Lord's prayer. Out of everything in the services, the sermon given by the pastor is the shortest part.

 

Hi, I'm also Lutheran (we go to a very traditional, liturgical church). If you get a chance, go to an Interpretive Service. I went to one last year and it was incredible. The pastor went through the entire liturgical service and explained the history/theology behind every part of the service. He showed exactly where in the Bible the singing/responses from the liturgy come from, he showed us which parts of the service had been carried over from before the Reformation...he explained the Invocation, Confession/Absolution, Introit, Kyrie, Gloria in Excelsis, the Collect, etc. He even talked about the Conference of Nicaea, the Apostle's Creed, etc. It was really an awesome service. I was surprised by how much of the Lutheran service is very, very old.

 

Also, about the earlier comment about Lutherans being very German... ;) Our last pastor had a joke about how "you know you're in a Lutheran church when everyone is sitting in their assigned seats". LOL. That cracks me up!

[ladydusk]

I could be wrong, but from what I understand, the "dark side" believes in a strictly symbolic Lord's Supper.

 

That's not completely the case. Reformed tend to believe somewhere floating between "strictly symbolic" and "real presence." We believe that the Supper truly does feed us, is a means of grace and a sacrament.