so me and church... you were right.

[imagine.more]

This has been an interesting thread to follow and read along :)

 

The free will issue you mentioned back on page 15/16 is one of my husband and I's main disagreements theologically. He holds a strict (he would say Lutheran) idea of bound will that would negate your statement. Your statement on free will is pretty much identical to my own view as a Catholic. Now, of course in the Lutheran and Catholic churches you're going to see a wide range of accepted beliefs on topics that are as big and broad as free will. But generally one belief or another might make you lean more towards Catholic doctrine or Lutheran doctrine. Certainly no mainline Lutheran church would kick you out for holding a slightly more pro-free-will view. In fact, you'll probably find that most members believe as you do, whether it's authentically Lutheran doctrine or not.

 

I don't think anyone has linked this but my husband and I always find these Lutheran Satire videos highly amusing. The pastor who does them is LCMS. They actually cover serious topics too, so it can be informative while also hilarious :)

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheLutheranSatire?feature=watch

 

I've experienced the same as you have with regard to the eucharist being necessary for my own spiritual growth. I've dabbled in Lutheranism and looked into other denominations because my Catholic faith really causes some huge impediments in our lifestyle given my DH's profession. But I keep coming back to the eucharist. I just can't be without Christ's presence and symbolic or even a vague "in, with, under, around" definition of eucharist doesn't cut it for me.

 

Good luck continuing to investigate these issues and looking into all the options. I do think it'd be a great idea to visit an EO church, they are awfully hard to find but I think at least you'd feel you had a more broad perspective of what's out there with regards to churches with real presence in the eucharist even if you didn't end up becoming EO in the end.

[Carol in Cal.]

Good answers, Wendi!

And righto about Sola Scriptura. It's Sola, not Solo. The Church is never me and a Bible in a room. Sola Scriptura is not that idea at all; but rather that the Bible is unique in that it is inspired by God, that it is the rule and norm of faith and practice, and that although longstanding practices of the Church should be continued generally, where they obscure or contradict the Bible they must be altered so as not to do so.

[Carol in Cal.]

Regarding the Eucharist, Confessional Lutherans believe that in the bread and wine we receive the actual, true, really present Body and Blood of Christ. In this Sacrament we receive forgiveness of sins as the words and promises of God declare. We pray afterwards in thanksgiving that God has 'refreshed us with this salutary gift'. We also pray the words of Simeon, "Lord, now lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace, according to Thy Word. For mine eyes have seen Thy salvation, which Thou has prepared before the face of Thy people..."

 

Our communion hymns, often sung while others are partaking, include a great deal of teaching about the importance and significance of Holy Communion. Here are some of my favorites:

 

"I Come, O Savior, to Thy Table"

by Friedrich C. Heyder, 1677-1754

Translated by composite

 

1. I come, O Savior, to Thy Table,

For weak and weary is my soul;

Thou, Bread of Life, alone art able

To satisfy and make me whole:

 

REFRAIN:

Lord, may Thy body and Thy blood

Be for my soul the highest good!

 

2. Oh, grant that I in manner worthy

May now approach Thy heavenly Board

And, as I lowly bow before Thee,

Look only unto Thee, O Lord!

 

3. Unworthy though I am, O Savior,

Because I have a sinful heart,

Yet Thou Thy lamb wilt banish never

For Thou my faithful Shepherd art!

 

4. Oh, let me loathe all sin forever

As death and poison to my soul

That I through wilful sinning never

May see Thy Judgment take its toll!

 

5. Thy heart is filled with fervent yearning

That sinners may salvation see

Who, Lord, to Thee in faith are turning;

So I, a sinner, come to Thee.

 

6. Weary am I and heavy laden,

With sin my soul is sore opprest;

Receive me graciously, and gladden

My heart, for I am now Thy guest.

 

7. Thou here wilt find a heart most lowly

That humbly falls before Thy feet,

That duly weeps o'er sin, yet solely

Thy merit pleads, as it is meet.

 

8. By faith I call Thy holy Table

The testament of Thy deep love;

For, lo, thereby I now am able

To see how love Thy heart doth move.

 

9. What higher gift can we inherit?

It is faith's bond and solid base;

It is the strength of heart and spirit,

The covenant of hope and grace.

 

10. This feast is manna, wealth abounding

Unto the poor, to weak ones power,

To angels joy, to hell confounding,

And life for us in death's dark hour.

 

11. Thy body, given for me, O Savior,

Thy blood which Thou for me didst shed,

These are my life and strength forever,

By them my hungry soul is fed.

 

12. With Thee, Lord, I am now united;

I live in Thee and Thou in me.

No sorrow fills my soul, delighted

It finds its only joy in Thee.

 

13. Who can condemn me now? For surely

The Lord is nigh, who justifies.

No hell I fear, and thus securely,

With Jesus I to heaven rise.

 

14. Though death may threaten with disaster,

It cannot rob me of my cheer;

For He who is of death the Master

With aid and comfort e'er is near.

 

15. My heart has now become Thy dwelling,

O blessed Holy Trinity.

With angels I, Thy praises telling,

Shall live in joy eternally.

 

Hymn #315

The Lutheran Hymnal

Text: 1 Cor. 11:28

Author: Friedrich C. Heyder, 1710, cento

Translated by: composite

Titled: "Ich komm' zu deinem Abendmahle"

Tune: "Ich sterbe taeglich"

1st Published in: Ms., Municipal Library

Town: Leipzig, 1756

 

 

"Soul, Adorn Thyself with Gladness"

By Johann Franck, 1618-1677

 

1. Soul, adorn thyself with gladness,

Leave behind all gloom and sadness;

Come into the daylight's splendor,

There with joy thy praises render

Unto Him whose grace unbounded

Hath this woundrous supper founded.

High o'er all the heavens He reigneth,

Yet to dwell with thee He deigneth.

 

2. Hasten as a bride to meet Him

And with loving reverence greet Him;

For with words of life immortal

Now He knocketh at thy portal.

Haste to ope the gates before Him,

Saying, while thou dost adore Him,

Suffer, Lord, that I receive Thee,

And I nevermore will leave Thee.

 

3. He who craves a precious treasure

Neither cost nor pain will measure;

But the priceless gifts of heaven

God to us hath freely given.

Though the wealth of earth were proffered,

Naught would buy the fits here offered:

Christ's true body, for thee riven,

And His blood, for thee once given.

 

4. Ah, how hungers all my spirit

For the love I do not merit!

Oft have I, with sighs fast thronging,

Thought upon this food with longing,

In the battle well-nigh worsted,

For this cup of life have thirsted,

For the Friend who here invites us

And to God Himself unites us.

 

5. In my heart I find ascending

Holy awe, with rapture blending,

As this mystery I ponder,

Filling all my soul with wonder,

Bearing witness at this hour

Of the greatness of Thy power;

Far beyond all human telling

Is the power within Him dwelling.

 

6. Human reason, though it ponder,

Cannot fathom this great wonder

That Christ's body e'er remaineth

Though it countless souls sustaineth,

And that He His blood is giving

With the wine we are receiving.

These great mysteries unsounded

Are by God alone expounded.

 

7. Jesus, Sun of Life, my Splendor,

Jesus, Thou my Friend most tender,

Jesus, Joy of my desiring,

Fount of life, my soul inspiring, --

At Thy feet I cry, my Maker,

Let me be a fit partaker

Of this blessed food from heaven,

For our good, Thy glory, given.

 

8. Lord, by love and mercy driven

Thou hast left Thy throne in heaven

On the cross for us to languish

And to die in bitter anguish,

To forego all joy and gladness

And to shed Thy blood in sadness.

By this blood, redeemed and living,

Lord, I praise Thee with thanksgiving.

 

9. Jesus, Bread of Life, I pray Thee,

Let me gladly here obey Thee.

By Thy love I am invited,

Be Thy love with love requited;

From this Supper let me measure,

Lord, how vast and deep love's treasure.

Though the gifts Thou here dost give me

As Thy guest in heaven receive me.

 

Hymn #305

The Lutheran Hymnal

Text: Rev. 19: 8

Author: Johann Franck, 1649

Translated by: Catherine Winkworth, 1858, alt.

Titled: "Schmuecke dich, o liebe Seele"

Composer: Johann Crueger, 1649

Tune: "Schmuecke dich"

[CAMom]

I have listened to radio program from Whitehorse Inn... is that Reformed? It was a wonderful sermon. I also listened to one from the United Methodist Church, which also spoke to me...

 

I just believe in the Eucharist, the real presence of Christ. His body given to me, to put in my body, to give me life...

 

Now that I have experienced this, I don't think I can attend a church that doesnt teach that.

 

Yes, The Whitehorse Inn is Reformed. Although Reformed churches do not teach the real presence of Christ in a physical sense, they usually teach that the Lord's Supper is, indeed, a means of grace. It will nourish you and strengthen you and Christ is present spiritually at the meal.

[JenniferB]

hmm

I thought purgatory was only a Roman Catholic teaching?

 

He's unperturbed by the Denial of purgatory. Orthodox don't teach purgatory.

[Lovedtodeath]

Hi, I'm also Lutheran (we go to a very traditional, liturgical church). If you get a chance, go to an Interpretive Service. ... he showed us which parts of the service had been carried over from before the Reformation...he explained the Invocation, Confession/Absolution, Introit, Kyrie, Gloria in Excelsis, the Collect, etc. He even talked about the Conference of Nicaea, the Apostle's Creed, etc. It was really an awesome service. I was surprised by how much of the Lutheran service is very, very old.

Thank you. I will ask about it.

 

He's unperturbed by the Denial of purgatory. Orthodox don't teach purgatory.

Thank you for clarifying.

[Lovedtodeath]

Yes, The Whitehorse Inn is Reformed. Although Reformed churches do not teach the real presence of Christ in a physical sense, they usually teach that the Lord's Supper is, indeed, a means of grace. It will nourish you and strengthen you and Christ is present spiritually at the meal.

Thank you for sticking around and addressing these thoughts. :grouphug:

[Lovedtodeath]

Regarding the Eucharist, Confessional Lutherans believe that in the bread and wine we receive the actual, true, really present Body and Blood of Christ. In this Sacrament we receive forgiveness of sins as the words and promises of God declare. We pray afterwards in thanksgiving that God has 'refreshed us with this salutary gift'. We also pray the words of Simeon, "Lord, now lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace, according to Thy Word. For mine eyes have seen Thy salvation, which Thou has prepared before the face of Thy people..."

Beautiful. Carol, do you mind answering my baptism question here as well, not just in the group?

[Carol in Cal.]

Beautiful. Carol, do you mind answering my baptism question here as well, not just in the group?

 

 

Here you go:

 

Lutherans believe that God works through means. His means of grace are the Sacraments and the Word. We teach that He gives faith to infants in Holy Baptism. The Bible does say, "Baptism now saves us." However, the mechanism for this isn't some sort of magic potion equivalent but rather:

 

'Certainly not just water, but the word of God in and with the water does these things, along with the faith which trusts this word of God in the water. For without God’s word the water is plain water and no Baptism. But with the word of God it is a Baptism, that is, a lifegiving water, rich in grace, and a washing of the new birth in the Holy Spirit, as St Paul says

in Titus, chapter three:

“He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying.” [Titus 3:5–8]'

(Small Catechism)

 

We also know that He gives faith without Baptism, through His Word.

We know that adults come to faith first and then are Baptized.

We know that the thief on the cross was promised eternal life without being Baptized.

We would not deny that the Holy Spirit came to you before you were baptized if you were baptized as an adult.

But we would also not deny that you had faith if you were baptized as an infant and grew up believing in God. (This was my own experience.)

Edited October 31, 2012 by Carol in Cal.

[Lovedtodeath]

Here you go:

 

Lutherans believe that God works through means. His means of grace are the Sacraments and the Word. We teach that He gives faith to infants in Holy Baptism. The Bible does say, "Baptism now saves us." However, the mechanism for this isn't some sort of magic potion equivalent but rather:

 

'Certainly not just water, but the word of God in and with the water does these things, along with the faith which trusts this word of God in the water. For without God’s word the water is plain water and no Baptism. But with the word of God it is a Baptism, that is, a lifegiving water, rich in grace, and a washing of the new birth in the Holy Spirit, as St Paul says

in Titus, chapter three:

“He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying.” [Titus 3:5–8]'

(Small Catechism)

"Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word..." Ephesians 5

We also know that He gives faith without Baptism, through His Word.

We know that adults come to faith first and then are Baptized.

We know that the thief on the cross was promised eternal life without being Baptized.

We would not deny that the Holy Spirit came to you before you were baptized if you were baptized as an adult.

But we would also not deny that you had faith if you were baptized as an infant and grew up believing in God. (This was my own experience.)

That last is so important to me for my children. My children are not to be treated as unbelievers. That was the first thing that I was not happy about at my previous church. They are holy and blessed. (1 Corinthians 7:14)

 

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts 2:38-39

[JenniferB]

My friend writes an Orthodox blog. He just happened to write about Luther yesterday. I thought it kind of went along with this thread. I found these quotes by Luther to give a little more insight as to what he thought of the Greek (Orthodox) church. I wonder if he wrote them before that exchange with Constantinople or after? Below is a cut/paste of my friend's blog posting from yesterday.

 

“The Greeks [Orthodox] . . . are not heretics or schismatics but the most Christian people and the best followers of the Gospel on earth.â€

 

“Yet he [the Pope] lifts his shameless, blasphemous mouth to heaven and slanders the Greek [Orthodox] church, claiming that it is schismatic and apostate. It is he himself who is the chief cause and sole author of all schisms and divisions. This is plain as day and all historical records show it.â€

 

“Second, they revile, slander, and anathematize the Greeks [Orthodox], and all others who do not submit to the pope, as though these were not Christians.â€

 

“Again, in this same passage, Christ speaks of this rock and of his church and says, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it†[Matt. 16:18]. Here Christ says clearly that against his rock and building and church the very devils shall not prevail. If, then, the rock is papal power and the building represents submission to this authority, how does it happen that this building and authority have in fact collapsed and the gates of hell have prevailed against it? For all Christendom has fallen away from the pope; for example, the Greeks [Orthodox], the Bohemians, Africa, and the whole orient! Or to be more accurate, they never were built upon this rock. Now, if Christ, who cannot lie, promises that the gates of hell shall not prevail against his building, and no one can deny that the Orient has fallen away, it follows that Christ speaks the truth and the pope lies, and the building is not obedience to his power but something else, which the gates of hell have not been able to break down. And it cannot be said that these people are no longer Christians because they do not obey the pope and are not built on him, since the pope himself and all his followers wish to be considered Christians, though they do not obey God in a single letter, and live, for the most part, without faith. So far they have been successful with their lies in maintaining that those who do not agree with them on this point are heretics and they themselves good Christians, though they do not take their stand with God and Christ on any point. Thus they make monkeys and fools of all the world, and define the terms “Christian†and “heretic†to suit themselves.â€

 

Martin Luther (Luther, Martin (1999). Vol. 32: Luther’s Works, vol. 32: Career of the Reformer II (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.) (59). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.)â€

[mommaduck]

From what I understand, you wouldn't be able to have both reformed theology and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I could be wrong, but from what I understand, the "dark side" believes in a strictly symbolic Lord's Supper.

 

The Eucharist is the single most important aspect to my faith now. It's because of it, and for it, that any furtherance in my Christian life comes. Everything else, even in the church, revolves around the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist.

Correct, however there are those that do believe there is a Grace imparted through it. (Reformed vary on many things) I converted from Reformed/Puritan/Covenanter. I used to moderate on a pretty well known Reformed board online. LovedtoDeath, if you have any questions, please feel free to pm me. I can explain what I believed as Reformed and why I no longer hold those views and much of it was through studying Calvin himself. I want to also admit, that I was still a hard core Calvinist when I first started attending the EOC, as I was attending due to my husband. I was straight forward and honest with the priest about my being a Puritan/Covenanter in the Church. He gave me space, accepted me as I was, and God took care of the rest. :001_smile:

Edited November 1, 2012 by mommaduck

[JenniferB]

Loved, or anyone who might be interested, I just ordered this book: Augsburg and Constantinople: The Correspondence between the Tubingen Theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople on the Augsburg Confession from Amazon. It used to be out of print, but now it's only $16 in paperback. It might be an interesting history study to read about the exchange between the Lutherans and Constantinople - it also goes into the differences/similarities of the two confessions.

[JenniferB]

Or this site provides a shorter version, but more detail than that other article. I'm working on reading this one now:

 

http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/lutheran.htm

 

Btw, I'm not trying to convince you of anything one way or the other, but I just find this church history thing fascinating, and I read about it constantly. If its not that interesting to you, or if it doesn't contribute to your journey, please disregard.

[milovany]

Correct, however there are those that do believe there is a Grace imparted through it. (Reformed vary on many things)

 

I believe you! I was responding solely to LovedToDeath saying she now believes in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not just a grace imparted through it.

[TracyP]

What a great thread! In March my family was baptized into an LCMS church. It has been such a long, long road, but we finally feel like we are where God wants us to be. I was also interested in both RC and EO as I felt called to a sacramental church. RC does not fit where we are right now, and it is too far a drive to the nearest EO. That left me with LCMS, and I couldn't be happier.:D

 

Carmen, I am so happy for you. Blessings on your journey.:grouphug:

[mommaduck]

I believe you! I was responding solely to LovedToDeath saying she now believes in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not just a grace imparted through it.

 

I underlined only to separate my agreement with you from the rest ;)

[Lovedtodeath]

I am definitely not a Calvinist. Does Reformed = Calvinist?

 

I guess that's just how little I know.

 

My main problem with the LCMS church is how my family might react to closed communion. Other than that, I am pretty happy. What I am learning so far, is all what I already accept from the Spirit and scripture.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[mom2jjka]

As for the emotion thing...

 

I grew up in a non-denom church that taught decision theology. It was supposed to be this life changing emotional experience - and for many it was. (I grew up with it - so it was all I knew from a young child. Was I happy that Jesus died for me? Definitely, but I didn't' have that awe inspiring testimony to go with my conversion story.)

 

I did, however, see many people (family members included) get saved - but to them it was not only a life changing experience but an emotional high. The trouble is that feeling of euphoria eventually faded, and I saw many of them then go through a crisis of faith and fall away. Once the emotional aspect was gone - they felt God had abandoned them.

 

When I became Lutheran, however, I learned that we cannot chose God - instead we receive Him and his Grace. And in contrast we don't automatically receive joy - but we can and should choose to be joyful in all circumstances because of what HE has done for us.

 

God is constant, our emotions are not.

Edited November 2, 2012 by mom2jjka

[GWOB]

I am definitely not a Calvinist. Does Reformed = Calvinist?

 

I guess that's just how little I know.

 

My main problem with the LCMS church is how my family might react to closed communion. Other than that, I am pretty happy. What I am learning so far, is all what I already accept.

 

The closed communion thing really bugged me at first. Coming from a Southern Baptist and non-denom background (with enough Catholic to make me feel the guilt:lol:), I thought Jesus died for everyone and therefore everyone should be allowed to partake. Then I started researching. I asked my pastor at least 1,000 questions. I finally realized that communion is not to be taken lightly. We are receiving the true body and blood of Christ. That's a big deal. I looked at it from my pastor's perspective. The poor guy is responsible for properly administering this sacrament. If I asked him to administer communion to me before I was confirmed, I would be contributing to something that may be sinful for him to do. I didn't want that on my shoulders. I've come to appreciate closed communion. I love that my congregation is on the same page. It's awesome knowing that everyone at the communion rail truly appreciates the gift they are receiving.

 

You will get there. It just takes time, prayer, and tons of reading.

 

As for the emotion thing...

 

I grew up in a non-denom church that was taught decision theology. It was supposed to be this life changing emotional experience - and for many it was. (I grew up with it - so it was all I knew from a young child. was I happy that Jesus died for me - definitely, but I didn't' have that awe inspiring testimony to go with my conversion story.)

 

I did, however see many people (family members included) get saved - but to them it was no only a life changing experience but an emotional high. The trouble is that feeling of euphoria eventually faded, and I saw many of them then go through a crisis of faith and fall away. Once the emotional aspect was gone - they felt God had abandoned them.

 

When I became Lutheran, however, I learned that we cannot chose God - instead we receive Him and his Grace. And in contrast we don't automatically receive joy - but we can and should choose to be joyful in all circumstances because of what HE has done for us.

 

God is constant, our emotions are not.

 

This is almost exactly the same experience I had. Everyone wanted a "Damascus Road" experience. While I always loved Jesus, I just didn't have that. And you know what? Not everyone needs a Damascus Road experience to truly experience the fullness of God.

[Lovedtodeath]

Mommaduck, I kept meaning to ask you all along. I don't know how it happens that I didn't. Thank you for the offer.

What a great thread! In March my family was baptized into an LCMS church. It has been such a long, long road, but we finally feel like we are where God wants us to be. I was also interested in both RC and EO as I felt called to a sacramental church. RC does not fit where we are right now, and it is too far a drive to the nearest EO. That left me with LCMS, and I couldn't be happier.:D

 

Carmen, I am so happy for you. Blessings on your journey.:grouphug:

:hurray::hurray:

 

Loved, or anyone who might be interested, I just ordered this book: Augsburg and Constantinople: The Correspondence between the Tubingen Theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople on the Augsburg Confession from Amazon. It used to be out of print, but now it's only $16 in paperback. It might be an interesting history study to read about the exchange between the Lutherans and Constantinople - it also goes into the differences/similarities of the two confessions.

Thanks!

 

As for the emotion thing...

 

I grew up in a non-denom church that was taught decision theology. It was supposed to be this life changing emotional experience - and for many it was. (I grew up with it - so it was all I knew from a young child. Was I happy that Jesus died for me? Definitely, but I didn't' have that awe inspiring testimony to go with my conversion story.)

 

I did, however, see many people (family members included) get saved - but to them it was not only a life changing experience but an emotional high. The trouble is that feeling of euphoria eventually faded, and I saw many of them then go through a crisis of faith and fall away. Once the emotional aspect was gone - they felt God had abandoned them.

 

When I became Lutheran, however, I learned that we cannot chose God - instead we receive Him and his Grace. And in contrast we don't automatically receive joy - but we can and should choose to be joyful in all circumstances because of what HE has done for us.

 

God is constant, our emotions are not.

Yes, exactly, I can see that this decision theology causes so many doubts in those who hear my testimony saying that they must not be saved, my daughter wondering if she is saved, etc. Thanks for sharing.

[justamouse]

When you believe in the Real Presence, you cannot have an open communion.

 

They are diametrically opposed. You would be letting strangers drink and eat judgment to themselves, and if you truly believe, then that is the last thing you would want for a brother or sister.

 

It's either real, or it's a symbol, and if it's real, it has power and it needs to be treated with respect for that power.

[GWOB]

When you believe in the Real Presence, you cannot have an open communion.

 

They are diametrically opposed. You would be letting strangers drink and eat judgment to themselves, and if you truly believe, then that is the last thing you would want for a brother or sister.

 

It's either real, or it's a symbol, and if it's real, it has power and it needs to be treated with respect for that power.

 

:iagree: Basically this.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think that the ELCA has the real presence and open communion.

 

I do believe in the real presence, and the power, and some could be eating and drinking judgment unto themselves.

 

I think that the definition of open communion and closed communion is where it gets sticky for me. Talking to the pastor beforehand seems like a good idea. Joining a church? We aren't comfortable with that, and neither are those we minister to.

[mommaduck]

I am definitely not a Calvinist. Does Reformed = Calvinist?

 

I guess that's just how little I know.

 

My main problem with the LCMS church is how my family might react to closed communion. Other than that, I am pretty happy. What I am learning so far, is all what I already accept from the Spirit and scripture.

 

Yes, Reformed are Calvinists, though Lutherans are close they are different. They used to antagonise one another in Reformation Era Europe though ;)

[GWOB]

I think that the ELCA has the real presence and open communion.

 

I do believe in the real presence, and the power, and some could be eating and drinking judgment unto themselves.

 

I think that the definition of open communion and closed communion is where it gets sticky for me. Talking to the pastor beforehand seems like a good idea. Joining a church? We aren't comfortable with that, and neither are those we minister to.

 

Here is what the ELCA says about communion. However, I will say this. The ELCA is sometimes a crap shoot. Some ELCA churches are strict and conservative, while others take certain liberties. Nothing wrong with the ELCA. There is just a much larger variety of congregations.

 

About joining a church. Oh man, I get it! It took us forever to "join" a church. Joining a church just seemed creepy to us. But we prayed, read, and researched the issued. It's a huge step. My knees are callused.

[milovany]

When you believe in the Real Presence, you cannot have an open communion. They are diametrically opposed. You would be letting strangers drink and eat judgment to themselves, and if you truly believe, then that is the last thing you would want for a brother or sister.

 

This is SO true, and keep in mind that even within the church (at least in the Orthodox church; it's my only experience in a sacramental church) not everyone goes up to receive just because they're there and they're Orthodox. The Eucharist is closed at different times and for different reasons even to those who DO qualify [don't like that word, can't think of another] by having been received into the church. This is very important to "get" -- is it just a membership thing? Obviously not. It's about being prepared to receive the holy body and blood of Jesus Christ. If there are Orthodox there who haven't done the traditional preparations, and who are not at peace with those around them, they ought not receive.

 

And also, look at the "last supper" in the Bible. Was that first communion, LTD, open or closed? Were the apostles the only followers of Christ in town?

Edited November 2, 2012 by milovaný

[Marylou]

I am definitely not a Calvinist. Does Reformed = Calvinist?

 

 

 

You better stop listening to the White Horse Inn. You might get sucked in :D!

[Lovedtodeath]

You better stop listening to the White Horse Inn. You might get sucked in :D!

:lol:

[ereks mom]

I agree that the sacraments must be part of the church-baptism and The Lord's Supper. These are means of grace and are part of how God spiritually nourishes us.

 

:iagree:

 

On the Law and Gospel being separated-I don't know what that means? The purpose of the Law is to show us our need for Christ and the gospel is present through all of the OT. How are they supposed to be separated?

 

I have the same question.

 

Well, the idea that going to church or getting baptized is something that I do for God is all backwards. Jesus provided the sacraments and the church for us. I can't explain it really... The sacraments are a mystery to us to a degree... we can't fully explain, just as we can't fully explain the nature of God... but I made sure I read all of the scriptures on baptism before hand... and I have read the scriptures about the Lord's supper, and teaching these things as merely a symbol or an act of obedience is just not quite the understanding that a full range of scripture gives.

 

I am Southern Baptist and :iagree:

Edited November 2, 2012 by ereks mom

[Kathryn]

I'm so glad this thread is still going! I posted back on post #11 that I, too, was being called to a more historical, sacramental church. Since then, the Lord has worked wonders, miracles even, in my family. We sent a letter to have our names removed from membership at our former church early this week. Our whole family became catechumens in the Orthodox Church two days ago.

[Juniper]

I'm so glad this thread is still going! I posted back on post #11 that I, too, was being called to a more historical, sacramental church. Since then, the Lord has worked wonders, miracles even, in my family. We sent a letter to have our names removed from membership at our former church early this week. Our whole family became catechumens in the Orthodox Church two days ago.

 

I am so happy for you all! Have a shown you my new favorite podcasts? Really great as we head into Nativity. I wish I had found them earlier as they discuss aspects of fasting with kids in a wonderful spirit. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/foodfaithfasting

 

It is geared towards Orthodox and Non-Orthodox alike. In the second podcast she even talks about food dyes, which is something we are dealing with.

 

 

Edited: OoopS! Sorry, for the hijack Carmen!!!

[Kathryn]

I am so happy for you all! Have a shown you my new favorite podcasts? Really great as we head into Nativity. I wish I had found them earlier as they discuss aspects of fasting with kids in a wonderful spirit. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/foodfaithfasting

 

It is geared towards Orthodox and Non-Orthodox alike. In the second podcast she even talks about food dyes, which is something we are dealing with.

 

 

Edited: OoopS! Sorry, for the hijack Carmen!!!

 

Thank you! I was SO glad to discover Ancient Faith Radio in a post on WTM. DH is an auditory learner and has a lot of time for listening but not much for reading. It has been an absolutely amazing resource for him especially.

[Lovedtodeath]

I saw someone from the Baptist church at Walmart and she said she had been missing me at church and I said Oh thank you. I have been shopping around.

I'm so glad this thread is still going! I posted back on post #11 that I, too, was being called to a more historical, sacramental church. Since then, the Lord has worked wonders, miracles even, in my family. We sent a letter to have our names removed from membership at our former church early this week. Our whole family became catechumens in the Orthodox Church two days ago.

Way to go taking a step! :grouphug: I am so happy for you!

[JenniferB]

I'm so glad this thread is still going! I posted back on post #11 that I, too, was being called to a more historical, sacramental church. Since then, the Lord has worked wonders, miracles even, in my family. We sent a letter to have our names removed from membership at our former church early this week. Our whole family became catechumens in the Orthodox Church two days ago.

 

:hurray:

[Lovedtodeath]

Originally Posted by CAMom

On the Law and Gospel being separated-I don't know what that means? The purpose of the Law is to show us our need for Christ and the gospel is present through all of the OT. How are they supposed to be separated?

 

 

On the Law and Gospel being separated... I can give you an example really quick, but my kids are hungry and such...

 

Most lessons in children's and youth programs have to do with how God loves you so much that you should try to "do" this or that for him... right? Or that we want to be like so and so? That is preaching law.

 

ETA: Ah, the key to understanding what I mean is seeing what Lutheran's say about Calvin's treatment of law and gospel.

 

Quote: That paradigm is Law-Gospel-Law. To explain it more fully, first the Law is preached to reveal sin. Secondly, comes a brief Gospel narrative to proclaim that Jesus died to save us all. Then, the Law is preached again, only not to accuse, but this time to instruct and guide those who have been moved by the Gospel on how to live. For Calvin’s preaching paradigm of Law-Gospel-Law has as its goal to inform, instruct, and motivate the Christian to be more like Jesus.

That paradigm is Law-Gospel-Law. To explain it more fully, first the Law is preached to reveal sin. Secondly, comes a brief Gospel narrative to proclaim that Jesus died to save us all. Then, the Law is preached again, only not to accuse, but this time to instruct and guide those who have been moved by the Gospel on how to live. For Calvin’s preaching paradigm of Law-Gospel-Law has as its goal to inform, instruct, and motivate the Christian to be more like Jesus.

http://www.hopelutheranfremont.org/motley/v1n1_a3.htm

Edited November 2, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

Here is an example that I hope helps. I am such a baby, I have no idea how to explain. from this link: http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/page/2/?s=law

 

As Lutherans do we take the great commission as Law or Gospel? The recent Issues etc episode on the great commission was helpful. However, it did not define the commission specifically as either “law†or “gospelâ€. Is the great commission considered an exception to law gospel distinction? ~A

A,

I will assume by the “Great Commission†you mean Matthew 28:18ff (and not Genesis 1:28, Luke 24:46ff or John 21:15-19). Jesus words here are both Law and Gospel. Before explaining, it is important to understand that the view of Law=bad, Gospel=good, is very misguided… and this is a common mistake amongst Lutherans. Both the Law and the Gospel are simply God’s good and gracious will. When Jesus says “all authority on heaven and on earth has been given to Me†and also “I am with you always, to the end of the age†this is Gospel language. It is about what Christ has done as is doing to save sinners. There is even a sense that his command to the disciples “in your going, make disciples of all nations…†is Gospel in that it is through this Ministry (that is through Word and Sacrament), that people are saved. However there is a sense in which this command is also Law, it is what God has commanded us to do. As I reflect on this command, I can always see where I’ve failed to teach, to make disciples because I am a wretched sinner. The new man in Christ in me, motivated and freed by the Gospel, delights in this command. So this passage, like the rest of Scripture is far from an exception to the distinction of Law and Gospel, rather this shows just how important (and even difficult) applying this distinction can be.

Matthew Lorfeld, Pastor

Messiah Lutheran Church

La Crescent, MN

[Lovedtodeath]

“Ignorance of the distinction between the Law and Gospel is one of the principle sources of all the abuses which corrupt and still corrupt Christianity.” –Theodore Beza.

 

Here is a wonderful link (from those Reformed guys!) with audio and written articles:

Martin Luther once observed that the “difference between Law and Gospel is the height of knowledge.” If this ability is lacking, he argued, “one cannot tell a Christian from a Turk or a Jew.” So what is this distinction, and why are so many Christians in our day ignorant of these crucial categories? On this program, Mike takes us through a number of important passages that contrast God’s command and promise, and explain why this distinction is so important to recover in the church.http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2012/09/02/whi-1117-understanding-law-gospel/

and here is a really long sermon in written form: http://www.graceluth-kw.org/articles/PreachingLawAndGospel_Williams.htm

I searched for the word "comfort" because I am too lazy to read the whole from the beginning.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

Ah, the key to understanding what I mean is seeing what Lutheran's say about Calvin's treatment of law and gospel.

That paradigm is Law-Gospel-Law. To explain it more fully, first the Law is preached to reveal sin. Secondly, comes a brief Gospel narrative to proclaim that Jesus died to save us all. Then, the Law is preached again, only not to accuse, but this time to instruct and guide those who have been moved by the Gospel on how to live. For Calvin’s preaching paradigm of Law-Gospel-Law has as its goal to inform, instruct, and motivate the Christian to be more like Jesus.

 

http://www.hopelutheranfremont.org/motley/v1n1_a3.htm

 

I had a better (easier to read, shorter) link, but can't find it.

[JenniferB]

For anyone who is interested, here is a video presentation of the Gospel from a legal understanding and from a restorative understanding. The restorative is the more ancient, patristic understanding.

 

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Wnj52gaauBs&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DWnj52gaauBs

Edited November 2, 2012 by JenniferB

[milovany]

For anyone who is interested, here is a video presentation of the Gospel from a legal understanding and from a restorative understanding. The restorative is the more ancient, patristic understanding. http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Wnj52...%3DWnj52gaauBs

Jennifer, after clicking the link above, the "watch video" link didn't work for me.

 

ETA -- I see why. The above link is the mobile version. On a desktop or laptop, use this link:

 

So important: "In the restorative/patristic gospel, you never pit God against Christ ... Christ did not come to change the Father, or to placate the Father, or to satisfy the father. Christ came to reveal the Father." And also, "God is never turning away from humanity. When do you ever see Jesus turning away from a sinner, saying 'I am too holy to look upon your sin'?" Did Jesus ever do anything like that? No. It was, in fact, the Pharisees that did that. No matter which way we turn, God is there, confronting us with His love."

Edited November 3, 2012 by milovaný

[Lovedtodeath]

http://virtuetograce.blogspot.com/2012/08/luther-on-original-sin.html

[milovany]

http://virtuetograce.blogspot.com/2012/08/luther-on-original-sin.html

 

 

Interesting quote / thoughts! It doesn't seem to complete the story. What does God DO in the face of our sin? Yes, we sin much (I don't think of it as "original sin," rather, personal sin), but what is God's response? Does He turn his back on us in wrath (turning back around IF we come to Him), or in love does He never turn his back on us and always come face-to-face with us in love? I liked the chair analogy in the above link from JenniferB that illustrates this.

Edited November 3, 2012 by milovaný

[Lovedtodeath]

Interesting quote / thoughts! It doesn't seem to complete the story. What does God DO in the face of our sin? Yes, we sin much (I don't think of it as "original sin," rather, personal sin), but what is God's response? Does He turn his back on us in wrath (turning back around IF we come to Him), or in love does He never turn his back on us and always come face-to-face with us in love? I liked the chair analogy in the above link from JenniferB that illustrates this.

I know more about the UMC on that... it is harder to find the Lutheran view. I have no Lutheran resources.

[milovany]

Praying you'll find the fullness of Christ in your search, LTD. I admire your desire and persistence.

[Whereneverever]

I know more about the UMC on that... it is harder to find the Lutheran view. I have no Lutheran resources.

 

God hates our sin.* We sin much, yes, actual sins are the fruit of Original Sin, but Original Sin itself causes us to be dead to God and enemies of God.* God's response to sin is to punish it.* He does so in this time (what some would call consequences) and into eternity (hell).* This punishment has been laid upon Jesus, His only-begotten, because God loves humanity and wants us to be saved.* He does this because that is His proper work, to save, to be gracious and merciful.

 

The quote seems to assume that we will either look for God (turn to Him) or be glad to meet Him face to face.* But the natural man (dead in sins and trespasses, see Ephesians 2) is also an enemy of God and runs from God every chance they can get.* God has to seek us out, hunt us down, and overcome us by His Spirit.* It is entirely His work.

 

The author seriously makes a mistake by leaving Original Sin out of the equation.* The children of Adam bear his image and likeness, that of a corrupted nature, so corrupted that everything we put our hands to will have the fingerprints of sin (even our best works).* Only Jesus' righteousness covers that sin and only faith apprehends Jesus.* That is why faith is the chief good work and is necessary to make any work good in God's eyes.

 

What does God do - He seeks, He saves through Jesus, that is what He does.* And His wrath is turned upon Himself so that He might have us.

 

 

Does that help?:001_smile:

[milovany]

Does that help?:001_smile:

 

Well, I don't know if it helps LTD, but it makes me sad that this is a belief in the Christian world. (Although, of course, I do respect your freedom to believe as you will in this regard!)

 

Did you happen to watch the video linked above? It's pretty good, I think, regarding this idea that God turns his back on us because of our sin (then again, the ancient church has never taught the idea of original sin). I like how it showed that the Father and the Son are never pitted against each other (as in a juridical theology), and that Christ never ever turned his back on those shown to be sinners in the Scriptures. He always, always sought them out in love.

Edited November 3, 2012 by milovaný

[Whereneverever]

Well, I don't know if it helps LTD, but it makes me sad that this is a belief in the Christian world.

 

Did you happen to watch the video linked above? It's pretty good, I think, regarding this idea that God turns his back on us because of our sin (then again, the ancient church has never taught the idea of original sin). I do respect your freedom to believe as you will in this regard.

 

I was just tryingto fill in a Lutheran quote since she couldn't find one. I can't watch a video... I have a four day old baby sleeping in my arms who may protest. :001_smile:

[milovany]

I was just tryingto fill in a Lutheran quote since she couldn't find one. I can't watch a video... I have a four day old baby sleeping in my arms who may protest. :001_smile:

 

Got it! I did edit my post a little bit while you were typing a reply, too. It's one of my greatest desires that this idea that God turns his back on sinners in what sounds like loathing would disappear from Christian theology.

[Whereneverever]

Got it! I did edit my post a little bit while you were typing a reply, too. It's one of my greatest desires that this idea that God turns his back on sinners in what sounds like loathing would disappear from Christian theology.

 

I don't think that says God turns his back on sinners... Rather sin. God seeks the lost and desires none to stay gone.

 

Any heavier debate is beyond me at this moment. ;) I probably shouldn't have poste to begin with.