so me and church... you were right.

[Lovedtodeath]

Are you listening to a lot of Internet programming? Have you come across Issues, ect? http://issuesetc.org/

there's also Table Talk Radio http://www.tabletalkradio.org/content/

Pirate Chistian Radio http://www.piratechristianradio.com/index.html

and KFUO http://www.kfuoam.org/

 

You may also enjoy Worldview Everlasting http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/

 

And for sermons there's Rev. Peterson http://www.redeemer-fortwayne.org/sermons.php

I love Lutheran Hour Ministries and worldvieweverlasting (don't like his style, but like what he actually says, lol) thank you.

 

Reading books and the internet can help get a start going, but after filtering out what you know you aren't looking for, I recommend that perhaps you just start attending and listening to the prayers and the liturgy, and withing the practices, of different churches. What the church believes should be heard in the prayers and words they use; how a church lives out its faith should be evident. Just a thought!

 

Do you have an EO church in your town?

Yes, I agree Milovany. I don't know of any EO churches here, but I also don't know of any Reformed or United Methodist Churches. I don't get out much. lol. I will have to start searching.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

http://www.lutherantheology.com/uploads/works/walther/LG/ I think you may find Walther's Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel fascinating. :)

Thank you. I do have some questions and will ask you personally.

[Whereneverever]

I love Lutheran Hour Ministries and worldvieweverlasting (don't like his style, but like what he actually says, lol) thank you.

 

 

 

He's got a unique style, doesn't he? Rev. Fisk just had his first book published, too.

 

Ha, we double posted.

[Lovedtodeath]

One hour til worship! (LCMS) I am not sure how I will handle it if it is closed communion. Just keep praying!

[Whereneverever]

One hour til worship! (LCMS) I am not sure how I will handle it if it is closed communion. Just keep praying!

 

You can do it!! :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Carol in Cal.]

One hour til worship! (LCMS) I am not sure how I will handle it if it is closed communion. Just keep praying!

 

How to handle it if it is closed communion: Say to yourself, 'This is how seriously they take Holy Communion--they believe that it is truly Christ's body and blood, that it has actual power, that it can hurt people if they don't take it rightly, and therefore that we must protect people from that if necessary. This Holy Communion is so important to them that they also believe that, rather than creating unity, it should proclaim unity.' And pray for true and righteous unity in the Church.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Carol in Cal.

[Lovedtodeath]

They did not deny me communion, but I talked with the pastor ahead of time.

 

Everything went really well! Thank the Lord for His precious gifts!

[Lovedtodeath]

The sermon was about the Holy Spirit and Romans 8. That question was put to rest in my mind. :)

[I.Dup.]

what is LCMS?

[GWOB]

what is LCMS?

 

Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod

[I.Dup.]

Oh okay. I have no idea what Missouri Synod means, I have never heard of that.

[mommaduck]

Oh okay. I have no idea what Missouri Synod means, I have never heard of that.

It's a particular Lutheran denomination.

[8circles]

Oh okay. I have no idea what Missouri Synod means, I have never heard of that.

 

I posted info upthread about some of the differences between the synods.

[Lovedtodeath]

My daughter asked if we were going to be Lutherans instead of Christians now. I said we will always be Christians... but the name on the church let's me know that they are too... if churches didn't have names then I would have no way of knowing what they teach, what we would find there.

 

The last church we went to was Baptist but she didn't seem to notice the name then. lol

[Bluegoat]

I don't believe that's true. The official Lutheran position is that there is a "real presence" of Christ in the eucharist. The official UMC position is that physically, eucharist is symbolic. I understand their belief to be that Christ is present spiritually in the eucharist. I may misunderstand that, so please correct me if anyone has better knowledge. Oftentimes, when you get down to the nitty-gritty root of the belief, it ends up being the same. At least IME.

 

 

The question of real presence and spiritual vs physical presence in the Eucharist is fairly complicated, and it can be really hard to discover sometimes what the language is supposed to mean in a particular group.

 

Saying that Christ is present spiritually may only be a way of saying the the bread and wine do not appear any different after they are consecrated - if you look at them in a lab, you will still see they are bread and wine.

 

Sometimes you see that language used by groups that have issues with Aristotelian transubstantiation too - thyey are really trying to avoid what they see as a particular error of that approach, not separate Christ's body and spirit.

 

Or, alternately, they may mean "spiritual" in the sense that Paul uses the term, as including the physical but in a higher, perfected way.

 

The same is true with saying the Eucharist or baptism is a symbol. That doesn't necessarily mean it is only viewed as a symbol. In the Anglican baptism service, IIRC, it says the water is a symbol, but we also believe that baptism is an objective act by God. It is an effectual symbol.

[8circles]

The question of real presence and spiritual vs physical presence in the Eucharist is fairly complicated, and it can be really hard to discover sometimes what the language is supposed to mean in a particular group.

 

Saying that Christ is present spiritually may only be a way of saying the the bread and wine do not appear any different after they are consecrated - if you look at them in a lab, you will still see they are bread and wine.

 

Sometimes you see that language used by groups that have issues with Aristotelian transubstantiation too - thyey are really trying to avoid what they see as a particular error of that approach, not separate Christ's body and spirit.

 

Or, alternately, they may mean "spiritual" in the sense that Paul uses the term, as including the physical but in a higher, perfected way.

 

The same is true with saying the Eucharist or baptism is a symbol. That doesn't necessarily mean it is only viewed as a symbol. In the Anglican baptism service, IIRC, it says the water is a symbol, but we also believe that baptism is an objective act by God. It is an effectual symbol.

 

Yes, this is what I meant in my last sentence. Thanks for explaining better.

[Lovedtodeath]

http://bible.cc/1_peter/3-21.htm

 

hmmm... a lot of Bible translations also say that the water is a symbol. This is something I need to look into some more, so I am glad it was brought up.

[Carol in Cal.]

http://bible.cc/1_peter/3-21.htm

 

hmmm... a lot of Bible translations also say that the water is a symbol. This is something I need to look into some more, so I am glad it was brought up.

 

I don't know Greek, but have been told that the New American Standard and English Standard Version are the most true to the Greek of any modern language translations. I notice that both of those translate the words as 'corresponding to' rather than a 'symbol'. These words draw the parallel with the previous verse which talks about people being brought safely through the water of the great flood in Genesis.

[milovany]

http://bible.cc/1_peter/3-21.htm

 

hmmm... a lot of Bible translations also say that the water is a symbol. This is something I need to look into some more, so I am glad it was brought up.

 

 

It seems to me (and I'm not Bible scholar) that it's saying yes the water is a symbol of the cleansing, but it still pretty clearly says that the baptism itself saves (it says "[the] baptism that now saves you"). Baptism is "for the remission of sins" as declared in the New Testament. It doesn't say the baptism is a symbol, but the water used in the baptism provides the symbol for the spiritual cleansing we obtain through baptism. Something physical is used to gift us something spiritual. That's what sacraments are.

 

This is where I find peace in the original/historical church. I don't have to figure all of it out verse by verse on my own (in fact, I have come up with some pretty crazy interpretations on my own); the interpretation has already been done and it was done by men who were with Christ, and who were discipled by those who had been with Christ. To them, baptism was for the remission of sins and is necessary for salvation. It's not a symbol. My job, instead of figuring out the Bible, is to live the life the church has given as a gift -- which includes reading and learning from the Scriptures too.

Edited October 8, 2012 by milovaný

[Lovedtodeath]

It doesn't say the baptism is a symbol, but the water used in the baptism.

right!

[Lovedtodeath]

I talked to the pastor afterwards over donuts and asked him what the requirement for baptism was. :) "That you want to be baptized" Can't get more scriptural than that!:)

[milovany]

right!

 

I did a little editing while you were posting -- my apologies. Didn't change the meaning of what I wrote, just reworded it.

 

ETA -- Sorry, I hadn't read Bluegoat's post; I don't have it set up on my computer to have it show what replies are to which comments.

Edited October 8, 2012 by milovaný

[Lovedtodeath]

I wanted to share my facebook conversation with you all, I hope you don't mind:

 

I posted:

"We as Catholics do not go to church primarily for what we want to give to God, but we go to church primarily for what God wants to give to us." "What God wants most to give me and you, is Himself." --John Riccardo, Pastor of Our Lady of Good Counsel

 

James: ''And why do we go to church? Does God wait to give us Himself at church? We are the church."

 

 

Me: "Yes, in the scriptures the church is speaking of the body of believers, the Bride of Christ, but there is nothing wrong with using the other common definition. I will share my personal experiences. Jesus led me to a very loving church. The key here is that He led me. They showed me the Romans Road and they showed me the love of Christ, comforting me and listening patiently to me. I was baptized there, and and through their love I learned about God's love for me. But then things started to change. My family didn't thrive there. I was very discouraged about church, and very adamant that I was fine without it. I felt pressured to go, and the reasons people gave me for going just didn't seem right. The church didn't cause me to feel closer to God. I could do the same at home listening to the radio... And then I realized that Christ was calling me to a different church. My family's needs are unique, and He knows this. There is nothing wrong with the church I was baptized at, and God is definitely using them for His work, but each denomination and each church has a different flavor. God has provided churches to do the work in the book of Acts... to teach the gospel, to provide the sacraments. Perhaps for you home church does this.

 

 

God does not wait to give Himself to us at church, but He did establish sacraments, and most people who do not go to church are not taking advantage of these gifts. I had not been to church in a while, and at His calling I went Sunday and received the Lord's Supper. I am renewed, energized, and using my spiritual gifts again...My joy in the Lord is once again strong and overflowing. I don't know if this church is where I am to stay, I don't know where other people should be, but this I do know... Sunday that church, and His body and blood received there was His gift to me."

 

I also wrote a blog post that is perhaps worded a little more graciously: http://onemediator.blogspot.com/2012/10/for-where-two-or-three-have-gathered.html

Edited October 8, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Whereneverever]

I'm glad it went well! I've been thinking about you.

[JenniferB]

“Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.†Luke 17:37

 

"For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Matt 24:28

[mommaduck]

“Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.†Luke 17:37

 

"For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Matt 24:28

Thank you for posting these, Jennifer.

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't understand those scriptures, but I was afraid to ask.

[mommaduck]

It's in reference to the Eucharist and the Church.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

It's in reference to the Eucharist and the Church.

I assumed that much due to the context of this conversation. I will have to read them in context.

[Ellie]

How to handle it if it is closed communion: Say to yourself, 'This is how seriously they take Holy Communion--they believe that it is truly Christ's body and blood, that it has actual power, that it can hurt people if they don't take it rightly, and therefore that we must protect people from that if necessary. This Holy Communion is so important to them that they also believe that, rather than creating unity, it should proclaim unity.' And pray for true and righteous unity in the Church.

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

Oh Carol, I meant to tell you and can't remember if I did... receiving the Eucharist from the pastor really did hit me. Christ gives himself and all we do is receive. I could see the pastor modeling Christ for us, not replacing Him (which was a thought that had scared me).

[milovany]

Oh Carol, I meant to tell you and can't remember if I did... receiving the Eucharist from the pastor really did hit me. Christ gives himself and all we do is receive. I could see the pastor modeling Christ for us, not replacing Him (which was a thought that had scared me).

 

 

Love that, so true. And I love how we move forward to receive this Gift -- we don't sit on our butts in the pew/chair waiting for the Holy Mysteries to come to us. We go and receive from His hand. (No offense to those of that tradition -- just know I love having to go receive the gift from the hand of the priest).

[Carol in Cal.]

Oh Carol, I meant to tell you and can't remember if I did... receiving the Eucharist from the pastor really did hit me. Christ gives himself and all we do is receive. I could see the pastor modeling Christ for us, not replacing Him (which was a thought that had scared me).

 

Awesome!

 

Here is my favorite Communion hymn. I learned more about Communion from our hymnody than from any other single source.

 

"Soul, Adorn Thyself with Gladness"

By Johann Franck, 1618-1677

 

1. Soul, adorn thyself with gladness,

Leave behind all gloom and sadness;

Come into the daylight's splendor,

There with joy thy praises render

Unto Him whose grace unbounded

Hath this woundrous supper founded.

High o'er all the heavens He reigneth,

Yet to dwell with thee He deigneth.

 

2. Hasten as a bride to meet Him

And with loving reverence greet Him;

For with words of life immortal

Now He knocketh at thy portal.

Haste to ope the gates before Him,

Saying, while thou dost adore Him,

Suffer, Lord, that I receive Thee,

And I nevermore will leave Thee.

 

3. He who craves a precious treasure

Neither cost nor pain will measure;

But the priceless gifts of heaven

God to us hath freely given.

Though the wealth of earth were proffered,

Naught would buy the fits here offered:

Christ's true body, for thee riven,

And His blood, for thee once given.

 

4. Ah, how hungers all my spirit

For the love I do not merit!

Oft have I, with sighs fast thronging,

Thought upon this food with longing,

In the battle well-nigh worsted,

For this cup of life have thirsted,

For the Friend who here invites us

And to God Himself unites us.

 

5. In my heart I find ascending

Holy awe, with rapture blending,

As this mystery I ponder,

Filling all my soul with wonder,

Bearing witness at this hour

Of the greatness of Thy power;

Far beyond all human telling

Is the power within Him dwelling.

 

6. Human reason, though it ponder,

Cannot fathom this great wonder

That Christ's body e'er remaineth

Though it countless souls sustaineth,

And that He His blood is giving

With the wine we are receiving.

These great mysteries unsounded

Are by God alone expounded.

 

7. Jesus, Sun of Life, my Splendor,

Jesus, Thou my Friend most tender,

Jesus, Joy of my desiring,

Fount of life, my soul inspiring, --

At Thy feet I cry, my Maker,

Let me be a fit partaker

Of this blessed food from heaven,

For our good, Thy glory, given.

 

8. Lord, by love and mercy driven

Thou hast left Thy throne in heaven

On the cross for us to languish

And to die in bitter anguish,

To forego all joy and gladness

And to shed Thy blood in sadness.

By this blood, redeemed and living,

Lord, I praise Thee with thanksgiving.

 

9. Jesus, Bread of Life, I pray Thee,

Let me gladly here obey Thee.

By Thy love I am invited,

Be Thy love with love requited;

From this Supper let me measure,

Lord, how vast and deep love's treasure.

Though the gifts Thou here dost give me

As Thy guest in heaven receive me.

 

Hymn #305

The Lutheran Hymnal

Text: Rev. 19: 8

Author: Johann Franck, 1649

Translated by: Catherine Winkworth, 1858, alt.

Titled: "Schmuecke dich, o liebe Seele"

Composer: Johann Crueger, 1649

Tune: "Schmuecke dich"

[Whereneverever]

And here's a great one about baptism you may really like.

 

God’s Own Child, I Gladly Say It

 

Stanza 1

 

God’s own child, I gladly say it:*I am baptized into Christ!

 

He, because I could not pay it,*gave my full redemption price.

 

Do I need earth’s treasures many? *I have one worth more than any

 

That brought me salvation free,*Lasting to eternity!

 

Stanza 2

 

Sin, disturb my soul no longer:*I am baptized into Christ!

 

I have comfort even stronger:*Jesus’ cleansing sacrifice.

 

Should a guilty conscience seize me, since my baptism did release me

 

In a dear forgiving flood, sprinkling me with Jesus’ blood?

 

Stanza 3

 

Satan, hear this proclamation:*I am baptized into Christ!

 

Drop your ugly accusation;*I am not so soon enticed.

 

Now that to the font I’ve traveled, all your might has come unraveled,

 

And, against your tyranny,*God, my Lord, unites with me!

 

Stanza 4

 

Death, you cannot end my gladness:*I am baptized into Christ!

 

When I die, I leave all sadness*to inherit paradise!

 

Though I lie in dust and ashes faith’s assurance brightly flashes:

 

Baptism has the strength divine to make life immortal mine.

 

Stanza 5

 

There is nothing worth comparing*to this lifelong comfort sure!

 

Open-eyed my grave is staring:*Even there I’ll sleep secure.

 

Though my flesh awaits its raising, still my soul continues praising:

 

I am baptized into Christ;*I’m a child of paradise!

[welovetoread]

I'm on a journey like yours of sorts. I grew up LCMS. Not sure I am headed back there or not.

I just know I"m unsettled where we are now.

 

Happy that you found a place to draw closer to our Lord.

[coffeefreak]

I don't know Greek, but have been told that the New American Standard and English Standard Version are the most true to the Greek of any modern language translations. I notice that both of those translate the words as 'corresponding to' rather than a 'symbol'. These words draw the parallel with the previous verse which talks about people being brought safely through the water of the great flood in Genesis.

 

I love the ESV. We just recently researched Bible translations because I'm so fed up with Zondervan and their constant changes in the NIV. From what we found out the NASB and the NKJV are also equal to the ESV. But not the KJV.

 

I'm loving this discussion. :001_smile: We were Lutheran for a while (we've been some of everything) and I always loved how the Lutherans did communion, but I never thought about it as us coming to the Lord and not the reverse. What a beautiful picture!

 

Dorinda

[Lovedtodeath]

I love the ESV. We just recently researched Bible translations because I'm so fed up with Zondervan and their constant changes in the NIV. From what we found out the NASB and the NKJV are also equal to the ESV. But not the KJV.

Those 3 are the translations we use along with the Amplified and the New Living Translation. I am disappointed that the Lutheran church I visited uses the NIV, but we weren't happy with the KJV at the Baptist church either.

 

I'm loving this discussion. :001_smile: We were Lutheran for a while (we've been some of everything) and I always loved how the Lutherans did communion, but I never thought about it as us coming to the Lord and not the reverse. What a beautiful picture!

 

Dorinda

The part that I think is beautiful is that we put our hands out to receive the Lord.

 

I have to tell you all my dds thoughts on the "What Lutheran's believe" brochure... so sweet. Later when I have my keyboard.

[Carol in Cal.]

It was probably the 1984 NIV, though, which is a pretty decent translation and much better than the newer ones.

 

Another favorite Communion hymn (from memory, so not all the verses):

 

I come, Oh Savior, to Thy table

For weak and weary is my soul.

Thou Bread of Life alone art able

To satisfy and make me whole.

Lord, may Thy Body and Thy Blood

Be for my soul the highest good!

[Lovedtodeath]

Okay here is what I read her from the "What Lutherans Believe" brochure:

It is through faith in Jesus that we receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life - by believing that He has freed us from the guilt, punishment, and power of sin. Faith is a gift worked in us by the power of the Holy Spirit; it doesn't come to us through anything we are capable of, but through what God does for us. We simply receive what is already being offered out of God's great love.

And she said, "Because He loves us, like we love our guinea pigs, because they are stupid and helpless."

 

I said, "Yep!" :D

 

I was already teaching my children the way the Lutheran church teaches... They need that assurance of love and grace... not scare tactics and/or rules to follow.

[GWOB]

Those 3 are the translations we use along with the Amplified and the New Living Translation. I am disappointed that the Lutheran church I visited uses the NIV, but we weren't happy with the KJV at the Baptist church.

 

The LCMS has officially switched to the ESV. Some churches (like mine) just haven't replaced the LSB yet. When we use a printed order of worship, all verses are from the ESV. We also have tons of NIV Bibles. Those things cost a bit to replace.

[Carol in Cal.]

Okay here is what I read her from the "What Lutherans Believe" brochure:

And she said, "Because He loves us, like we love our guinea pigs, because they are stupid and helpless."

 

I said, "Yep!" :D

 

I was already teaching my children the way the Lutheran church teaches... They need that assurance of love and grace... not scare tactics and/or rules to follow.

 

Oh, that is just so sweet. Good job, Mama!

[8circles]

Okay here is what I read her from the "What Lutherans Believe" brochure:

And she said, "Because He loves us, like we love our guinea pigs, because they are stupid and helpless."

 

I said, "Yep!" :D

 

I was already teaching my children the way the Lutheran church teaches... They need that assurance of love and grace... not scare tactics and/or rules to follow.

 

Love this. We really need a 'love' button here.

[Carol in Cal.]

The LCMS has officially switched to the ESV. Some churches (like mine) just haven't replaced the LSB yet. When we use a printed order of worship, all verses are from the ESV. We also have tons of NIV Bibles. Those things cost a bit to replace.

 

The Concordia Self-Study Bible is 1984 NIV, and it is really great for homeschooling. Although the new Lutheran Study Bible in ESV is a better study Bible overall, especially with all of its theological notes, the old one is really great for fast 'do the next thing' chronological information and setting.

[GWOB]

The Concordia Self-Study Bible is 1984 NIV, and it is really great for homeschooling. Although the new Lutheran Study Bible in ESV is a better study Bible overall, especially with all of its theological notes, the old one is really great for fast 'do the next thing' chronological information and setting.

 

I just purchased the new one about a month ago. I love that thing! And if I ever lose my hand weights, I can do bicep curls with that Bible. I love using it with my oldest for confirmation. I got suckered into teaching 5th-6th grade confirmation starting in Janurary. I hope that Bible helps me pretend to know what I'm talking about:lol:.

[milovany]

I just purchased the new one about a month ago...

 

Wendi, you ordered the wrong one! I thought you were going to order this one.

 

;)

 

:D

 

:lol:

[Carol in Cal.]

I just purchased the new one about a month ago. I love that thing! And if I ever lose my hand weights, I can do bicep curls with that Bible. I love using it with my oldest for confirmation. I got suckered into teaching 5th-6th grade confirmation starting in Janurary. I hope that Bible helps me pretend to know what I'm talking about:lol:.

 

I love mine. But I bought the large print edition on the theory that someday I would be glad I did, and I'm already sorry. It is SO BIG. It doesn't even fit comfortably between my elbow and wrist. And there are no Bible covers that fit it for sale--I need to designate a tote bag for it I guess. I'm actually considering purchasing a compact copy to use anywhere but home. :001_smile:

 

Do you have the Concordia (Reader's Edition of the Lutheran Confessions)? It's kind of like a modern language translation--very readable, with good essays and footnotes. Last spring I used it to study the Large Catechism devotionally for Lent, and I can't imagine a better preparation for teaching confirmation classes.

[Lovedtodeath]

Wendi, you ordered the wrong one! I thought you were going to order this one.

Tee hee hee!

[MrsMommy]

Can I put in a plug for the Treasury of Daily Prayer? Scripture readings (ESV), and a reading from a church father, for every day of the year. Plus hymns, and additional readings, if you so desire.

 

Oh, and can I add my favorite Communion hymn, as long as we're sharing such beautiful ones?

 

Let all mortal flesh keep silence

And with fear and trembling stand;

Ponder nothing earthly minded,

For with blessing in His hand

Christ our God to earth descending

Comes our homage to demand.

 

King of kings yet born of Mary,

As of old on earth He stood,

Lord of lords in human vesture,

In the body and the blood,

He will give to all the faithful

His own self for heav'nly food.

 

Rank on rank the host of heaven

Spreads its vanguard on the way

As the Light of Light, descending

From the realms of endless day,

Comes the pow'rs of hell to vanquish

As the darkness clears away.

 

At His feet the six-winged seraph,

Cherubim with sleepless eye,

Veil their faces to the presence

As with ceaseless voice they cry:

"Alleluia, alleluia!

Alleluia, Lord Most High!"

[Carol in Cal.]

Can I put in a plug for the Treasury of Daily Prayer? Scripture readings (ESV), and a reading from a church father, for every day of the year. Plus hymns, and additional readings, if you so desire.

 

Oh, and can I add my favorite Communion hymn, as long as we're sharing such beautiful ones?

 

Let all mortal flesh keep silence...

 

I second these, wholeheartedly. Love the T of DP (recommended it on the baptism thread just this morning) and love that hymn. Did you ever see the Youtube of it from the LYG in 2010? It was awesome.

[GWOB]

Wendi, you ordered the wrong one! I thought you were going to order this one.

 

;)

 

:D

 

:lol:

 

Don't start with me, woman!:tongue_smilie::lol:

 

And for those that mentioned the Treasury of Daily Prayer. Did you guys know that CPH has an app that is kinda like TDP? It's called "Pray Now" and had daily readings from psalms, OT, NT, and gospels, church fathers readings, and hymns. It has a listing of canticles, prayers, AND had the coolest journaling feature. CPH also has the liturgical calendar available for downloading onto you phone's calendar. So cool.