Poll: Would you/do you take your kids out of school (yes, I know...) for vacation?

[Spy Car]

Who do you feel would be drastically negatively effected by the choice, and in what way(s) are they effected?

 

The teacher is negatively effected, as he or she now has to try to remediate for lessons missed. The class is negatively impacted because either they lose class time while their teacher tries to get a child who has willfully been pulled out of class for a week back up to speed, or they suffer the impact of sharing a class with a child who is not up to speed.

 

The student who is pulled out suffers from missing a weeks worth of instruction—which is no small matter. And, in districts like ours where funding is based on a "per diem" basis, the school budget suffers.

 

So pretty much everybody suffers. Is that not obvious?

 

How is taking a child out of school 'just because I want to' any different from the decision to put a child into school 'just because I want to'? Both decisions are normal and legitimate -- why should people outside of the family be concerned about this at all?

 

It is different because pulling a child out of a class negatively impacts a great number of fellow students and their teacher. If one wants to play by ones own rule then homeschool. But don't send your children to a public school and acts like the social contract does not apply to you.

 

To me it sounds similar to someone saying, "If you sign up for city water service, you are obligated to use some every day, or you are doing wrong to the city water company because you did not meet their expectation that you would be a daily user. That's selfish of you not to use water all the time. You should use the service even when you don't want to." Water companies don't care. Most schools systems don't care either.

 

All schools care. Your analogy is preposterous. Schools are a community. Selfish behavior undermines that community. I'm banging my head against the wall.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

The funny thing is' date=' NO ONE at my son's school has a problem with this. I guess I will be thankful for that, now that I realize that some people would react very strongly to our decision.[/quote']

 

I would not feel "thankful" to be at a school where no one cared if a child was pulled out of school for a week "just because." I would hate to be at such a school.

 

BTW, I'm really not a selfish person, quite the opposite, and I'm sure you're not an overly dramatic person. So I hope there are no hard feelings and that you realize that just because others think dfferently than you or make different decisions than you would, does not really mean we are selfish.

 

But, either way, it's okay. I've got my big girl panties on. :D

 

I just don't think pulling a child out of school—except under extraordinary circumstances—is kosher. I really don't.

 

Bill

[Girl Power]

I think the biggest difference seems to be that I don't have the anti-school mentality that a lot of others do. (Or at least seem to). No, my kids don't go to PS anymore, but not because I consider the school to be a big negative - I went to PS and did great. It just wasn't what worked for my family, and I highly doubt my children will ever go back to school. It's a goal of mine to HS them all the way through.

 

I guess in reading this I discovered I probably shouldn't have bothered. Some of the responses have me taking offense when I probably shouldn't - particularly those who are talking about family time and how family comes first - it is leaving me feeling completely misunderstood because I consider DH & I to be one of the MOST 'family first' families that I know IRL. There are a lot of things that we just don't believe in doing that we feel puts family behind other things. We would personally NEVER take a trip without our kids. I know some people do, and that's their choice and I really don't care. It just isn't ours.

I never once would have dreamed that somehow this would turn into a 'family first' vs 'school first' argument - I don't consider those two things to have anything to do with it.

 

Kara, sorry you're feeling defensive but, really, your OP may have brought up some defensiveness in others. "selfish", "entitlement", "irresponsible" we're used to describe parents who may not agree with your mindset. Sorry if you expected everyone to agree with you;)

 

Beck

[creekland]

The funny thing is' date=' NO ONE at my son's school has a problem with this. I guess I will be thankful for that, now that I realize that some people would react very strongly to our decision.

 

But, either way, it's okay. I've got my big girl panties on. :D[/quote']

 

From the looks of the poll, 13 out of 100 people would care. That means 87 out of 100 either wouldn't or conditionally wouldn't. Even though this is a homeschooling board, it probably is very similar to the general public as it would pretty much match kids who do/don't leave school for various reasons at our school. I don't worry about trying to please all the people all the time. It's impossible. It doesn't matter what the subject is.

 

The teacher is negatively effected, as he or she now has to try to remediate for lessons missed.

 

Doesn't happen in my classes - at least - not in ways that are a big grievance. We have times in our school that are designated for make up for any absences or are for kids who need extra help.

 

The class is negatively impacted because either they lose class time while their teacher tries to get a child who has willfully been pulled out of class for a week back up to speed, or they suffer the impact of sharing a class with a child who is not up to speed.

We don't catch up in class = no lost class time. If a student misses a test, then their group might suffer, but I'm not fond of group tests anyway - I rather detest them - so I don't have any problems with my son's group(s) not getting to copy off his paper if he misses one. Missing individual tests is never a problem.

 

The student who is pulled out suffers from missing a weeks worth of instruction—which is no small matter.

They miss nothing if they got their work and keep up. If they didn't, it honestly seldom takes long to catch up - esp at the elementary level, but even for high school I haven't seen problems. It's certainly not a big problem.

 

And, in districts like ours where funding is based on a "per diem" basis, the school budget suffers.

This may be a problem in your state. It's not in most states.

 

 

So pretty much everybody suffers. Is that not obvious?

I don't see where anyone suffers. I also see that you overlook the terribly obvious - the kids who travel learn a ton. Give me a kid who has seen the ocean, a palm tree, snow, deserts, woods, cities, monuments, National Parks, different places/things/foods any day over one who merely learns about them in books. If the parents need to or choose to go during the school year doesn't matter at all - other than keeping up with schoolwork while they are gone (or before and after).

 

 

If one wants to play by ones own rule then homeschool. But don't send your children to a public school and acts like the social contract does not apply to you.

You also choose to overlook the fact that many schools such as mine have, as part of that contract, ways to take excused absences for traveling. We abide by that contract. We sign forms about it every August and every trip. My guy will be heading to Jamaica (again) in Jan. His trip will be far more educational than staying in class would be. The school knows this and APPROVES the absence as educational just as they've approved ALL of our absences (and those of other students).

 

I feel for kids in districts who don't acknowledge the value of travel and who think kids can only learn in a classroom. I'd hate to be in one of them. Like others here, I'd do what I needed to in order to travel anyway - if it meant dis-enroll, then re-enroll, so be it. There's no need to let the 13% rule the 87%. The 13% can leave their kids in every day and schedule their vacations (if any) on holidays. No one is stopping them.

Edited August 18, 2012 by creekland

[Hikin' Mama]

I would not feel "thankful" to be at a school where no one cared if a child was pulled out of school for a week "just because." I would hate to be at such a school.

 

 

 

I just don't think pulling a child out of school—except under extraordinary circumstances—is kosher. I really don't.

 

Bill

 

So let me ask you this. Is pulling kids out (done by the school) for sports okay? How about band, drama, or any other extracurricular activities that students may be involved in?

 

I think I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but I need something to do while I'm icing my back in between all the hard labor I'm trying to accomplish today. :bigear:

[MBM]

At my kids' schools, students and parents were expected to keep up with lessons and homework and reschedule tests, if the student missed school due to vacation. Some teachers also asked parents to copy any of the necessary material. All fair, I think.

 

My son's high school schedules activities out-of-town/state/country. Sometimes students miss as much as a week of school. Last year, for example, some of the music students (100+) missed all of Spring Break as well as a full week of school so they could tour Australia. My son missed several days due to math meets. Many of the athletes miss school, too. Students are expected to take full responsibility for making up what they miss. There is no hand-holding.

 

I think much can be learned from trips, even family trips -- and all of my kids went to what I consider very good schools, often highly ranked.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[creekland]

So let me ask you this. Is pulling kids out (done by the school) for sports okay? How about band' date=' drama, or any other extracurricular activities that students may be involved in?

 

[/quote']

 

Those who leave for sports are usually the most affected academically. They leave often, not just for a week or two. Again though, this only affects the students who choose to play - not the class nor the teacher. Smart kids will try to get a schedule that has them missing a "not as necessary" class (like PE). It's not always possible though. It's up to the student to keep up with their classwork no matter the reason for the absence.

 

At my kids' schools, students and parents were expected to keep up with lessons and homework and reschedule tests, if the student missed school due to vacation. Some teachers also asked parents to copy any of the necessary material. All fair, I think.

 

My son's high school schedules activities out-of-town/state/country. Sometimes students miss as much as a week of school. Last year, for example, some of the music students (100+) missed all of Spring Break as well as a full week of school so they could tour Australia. My son missed several days due to math meets. Many of the athletes miss school, too. Students are expected to take full responsibility for making up what they miss. There is no hand-holding.

 

 

I didn't think my school was that unusual. We've had teams travel to Orlando... and language trips to France/Costa Rica and similar. There are also several more local trips (DC, Baltimore). They all miss school time, but they all learn a good deal.

 

Our school is not a top stats school. It ranks average for our state and our state is slightly above average for the nation. However, it's generally the kids who travel who tend to be more at the top of the class. In the lower level classes kids seldom have gone anywhere. The latter are often absent, but not due to travel (unless you count the mall - and THOSE trips are unexcused). Of course, a good deal of that depends upon the parents involved, but if travel were such a hindrance, one wouldn't expect such results.

[LibraryLover]

I did not know this was such a hot topic. I've never even seen it discussed before. Not here, not in my actual life. Nobody ever said a negative thing to us. Our school was fantastic about it.

 

I would think a week investigating the rich museums, and nooks and crannies of DC or NYC etc., would be something people would want children do...even if it happens during school hours, without teachers. I do think my kids got so much out of the one- on one- of visiting with parents, than had they gone with a large school group (although I am fine with that as well).

 

btw, do you know how dead the Air & Space Museum is in mid January? We practically had the run of the place one year. My children were also able to take a couple of workshops at the Freer and Sackler Galleries during one of our trips. We just happened upon some experimental program, and they invited our children to join the small group of children just beginning the workshop. Maybe 15 kids, and about 5 student teachers? It ended with a music performance, and the children were able to play instruments from all over the world. It was something special. The National Zoo is open in March, no crowds at all, and the great apes were happy to see us. :)

Edited August 24, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Heather in Neverland]

Ok, now that I have read through the responses I noticed:

 

-many of the posters who think pulling a child for a vacation is ok also either had bad experiences with PS or are still having bad experiences with PS. This colors their opinion on the matter.

 

-those who homeschool often have a "maverick" mindset and want to march to the beat of their own drum rather than join in with the band. There is nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't mix well when one who thinks the rules are stupid and either don't or shouldn't apply to them also have their children in a group education setting where group rules are the norm.

 

-the "I'm going to do what I want to do and I don't care what anyone thinks and how dare you infringe on my right to do exactly as I please" mindset WHILE still expecting to be part of a group that has certain standards and expecting that group to lovingly embrace your individualism-run-amok or be labeled a family-time-hater actually IS a bit selfish. I am not sure where everyone got this idea that a family vacation is some kind of civil right every person is entitled to?

 

-I don't get the "well, our school sucks anyways so who cares if my kid misses a day?" attitude either. If your school is THAT bad either pull your child out or roll up your sleeves and be a part of making it better. Contributing to the problem by disrespecting class time and a teacher's time is not the answer. But if it makes you feel better to justify your choices that way then...proceed.

 

I am very thankful at this moment to work at a private school where parents who disregard the importance of what we are doing here are asked to leave and that spot is filled with a child whose parents are willing to fully support what we are trying to do. I don't think I can ever work in a PS and be that beholden to parental whims again.

 

Also, I am agreeing with Bill and I think someone should write that down. ;)

 

 

.

[SKL]

 

Not in the slightest. Pulling kids out of school for week just because you want to is very selfish behavior.

 

Bill

 

Your opinion might be colored by the fact that your mom, as a teacher, presumably had time for vacations in the summer. Instead of calling everyone in a different situation "selfish," maybe try to recognize that you might not realize how having a very work-heavy summer changes things. You really don't know whether your own mom would have pulled you out if your parent(s) had to take their vacations in the fall/spring.

[SKL]

Another thing. It isn't just the parents who want/need a vacation once in a while. My kids are in school or child care year round, full time, 7 days per week. There is almost no day in the year when they get to sleep in or just putz around the house all day, let alone go someplace fun. About a year ago, they got to go to DC with me - because I was putting on a professional conference. They had to sit quietly as we talked about tax credits, and then keep mum for 5.5 hours as our boss conducted business calls for most of the drive home. But yeah, we squeezed in a little bit of sightseeing in between. Such spoiled, selfish kids I'm raising!

 

So yeah, I think it would be nice if they could have a little break from the grind. I think it's kinda selfish for teachers to grudge kids a little mental stimulation or relaxation.

[LibraryLover]

 

 

Also, I am agreeing with Bill and I think someone should write that down. ;)

 

 

.

 

 

LOL I will take note of this.

 

Ftr, our school didn't bat an eye when kids got to do interesting things with their families. They were very helpful in planning what should be done while gone, as well.

 

I'll admit that once 6th grade started, we were less likely to miss any school, and we never took the kids out of high school.

Edited August 24, 2012 by LibraryLover

[creekland]

 

-those who homeschool often have a "maverick" mindset and want to march to the beat of their own drum rather than join in with the band. There is nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't mix well when one who thinks the rules are stupid and either don't or shouldn't apply to them also have their children in a group education setting where group rules are the norm.

 

-the "I'm going to do what I want to do and I don't care what anyone thinks and how dare you infringe on my right to do exactly as I please" mindset WHILE still expecting to be part of a group that has certain standards and expecting that group to lovingly embrace your individualism-run-amok or be labeled a family-time-hater actually IS a bit selfish. I am not sure where everyone got this idea that a family vacation is some kind of civil right every person is entitled to?

 

I am very thankful at this moment to work at a private school where parents who disregard the importance of what we are doing here are asked to leave and that spot is filled with a child whose parents are willing to fully support what we are trying to do. I don't think I can ever work in a PS and be that beholden to parental whims again.

 

.

 

Again, you are ignoring the fact that most of us ARE playing by the school's rules when we take our vacations. Our schools encourage vacations and the educational learning that happens during these trips.

 

FWIW, I think family trips/vacations SHOULD be a civil right available to all. Kids and adults who travel more really are better educated IMO than those who learn simply from books or videos.

 

I went to a top notch private school for my own 10th grade year. This school sent ALL grads to colleges - usually top colleges (except two from my year - one was gunning for the Olympics and the other went directly into daddy's business). This school never had a problem with vacations either. I don't think taking vacations hurt their students in the least.

 

I think your private school is in the minority if it doesn't recognize the value of travel even if it's during the school year.

 

I think public schools that have modified their policies are doing so because they are grasping at straws trying to improve test scores. It's doubtful restricting travel will work. They need to get the true truants, but those aren't the travelers.

[bolt.]

The teacher is negatively effected, as he or she now has to try to remediate for lessons missed. The class is negatively impacted because either they lose class time while their teacher tries to get a child who has willfully been pulled out of class for a week back up to speed, or they suffer the impact of sharing a class with a child who is not up to speed.

Or, certainly, the other option would be to let the parents deal with the consequences of their own choices, and not waste everyone's time. I certainly wouldn't expect a teacher to take responsibility in a situation like that. On the other hand, I, of course, would have made sure my child did not fall behind in the first place... so, I can't see any "selfishness" in my choices there.

 

The student who is pulled out suffers from missing a weeks worth of instruction—which is no small matter.

Actually, I think it is a pretty small matter -- especially in younger grades, with low expectations, plenty of busy work, and a reasonable amount of lesson-review.

 

And, in districts like ours where funding is based on a "per diem" basis, the school budget suffers.

The water company's budget suffers when people conserve water too. That's not my problem... besides what kind of foolishness would there have to be for a school to budget as if every student was going to attend every instructional day? Why not just consult the past few years' rates of attendance and make a reasonable budget for the students who are attending and being taught throughout the year?

 

So pretty much everybody suffers. Is that not obvious?

No, it's not obvious that a teacher would waste everyone's time to remidate a vacationing student who fell behind. That's a very unexpected teaching decision that I've never seen a teacher make. Perhaps it is different where you live.

 

It is different because pulling a child out of a class negatively impacts a great number of fellow students and their teacher.

Only if the teacher decides (on what basis, I wouldn't know) that many should suffer for one person's good. Perhaps a teacher would (out of kindness) offer a little one-on-one help during some sort of work period, or offer some recess or after school assistance (as long as it didn't impact his/her own need for a break) -- but I can't imagine why they would remediate during instructional time that was lesson planned for another objective.

 

If one wants to play by ones own rule then homeschool.

I don't see why people shouldn't access public resources for their children according to their own choices. They are public resources -- if a parent only wants 90% of what's offered, that harms no one. It's like eating 90% of a free lunch -- if you're not hungry, why eat more than you want?

 

But don't send your children to a public school and acts like the social contract does not apply to you.

There is no social contract that applies. Extended absences are commonplace and not at all as disruptive as you seem to imagine.

 

 

All schools care.

Of course all schools are 'caring sorts of places' -- but most of them don't *mind* student vacations. At least not here.

 

Your analogy is preposterous. Schools are a community.

Communities do fine when people come and go from time to time. Workplaces survive it, so do Churches, even families. Vacations don't hurt school communities.

 

Selfish behavior undermines that community.

Then I'd be careful to tell the teacher that he/she should not, under any circumstances, remediate my child during class time. I would specifically instruct him/her (in case s/he was tempted towards that unwise option) to merely let me know of any gap in my child's learning, and I would immediately secure professional tutoring services to fix *my* error, if I should happen to let my child fall behind. All better?

 

I'm banging my head against the wall.

 

Bill

You might be right.:tongue_smilie:

[SKL]

Gosh, how did schools function when practically every child missed weeks for chicken pox? Or even worse, back in the days of measles and mumps?! It's a wonder kids in those days learned to read.

 

When I was a kid, every child missed some school, whether from an extended illness or a trip. It was up to the child to check with the teacher for a list of the work they missed. When I missed the lesson on long division, I had to figure it out for myself, because the teacher did not re-teach it to me. As someone else mentioned, isn't that what textbooks are for?

 

I could see it seeming selfish if you took your kid out for a week and then expected the teacher to spend the next week teaching him what he missed. That's why schools need a policy that tells parents how to do it right if they do decide to do it. The way I do things, I don't see how it could be seen as selfish if my kid is out for a week and when she returns, she's rested, happy, and caught up with the class work.

[MBM]

Again, you are ignoring the fact that most of us ARE playing by the school's rules when we take our vacations. Our schools encourage vacations and the educational learning that happens during these trips.

 

Yes, my youngest's large, public high school even announces to parents at the beginning of the year that it's fine to go on vacation and miss some school as long as parents notify the school in advance and follow procedures. I'm a little surprised that vacations are frowned upon elsewhere. (And grateful that's not the case here!)

[PeacefulChaos]

At my kids' schools, students and parents were expected to keep up with lessons and homework and reschedule tests, if the student missed school due to vacation. Some teachers also asked parents to copy any of the necessary material. All fair, I think.

 

My son's high school schedules activities out-of-town/state/country. Sometimes students miss as much as a week of school. Last year, for example, some of the music students (100+) missed all of Spring Break as well as a full week of school so they could tour Australia. My son missed several days due to math meets. Many of the athletes miss school, too. Students are expected to take full responsibility for making up what they miss. There is no hand-holding.

 

I think much can be learned from trips, even family trips -- and all of my kids went to what I consider very good schools, often highly ranked.

 

Just my 2 cents.

That sounds so nice!

Oh, yeah, we did trips in high school too and they were great! :) Not Australia - but we would go away for 4 days every spring (2 days of school) plus the days we missed for various tryouts (for all state music stuff) and contests... and my senior year we went to a big vocal performance choir (it was audition only and 5 of us made it) in another state for a few days.

All of those things were awesome. :) I wouldn't consider those a bad thing to miss for - or any other sort of educational trip. :)

[GoVanGogh]

Our school district doesn't allow students to miss school for vacations due to funding issues (they are given $$$ based of attendance each day) and the standardized testing schedule. They have so many benchmark tests and test prep days, plus actual test days, I have no idea how one could pull a child for a vacation anyway! (Not that I agree with it, but that is the way our district operates.)

 

Our neighbor girl was written up for missing school for a relative's out of state funeral and the parents threatened with truancy court. :glare:

 

My SIL lives in the midwest and pulled her kids out a couple of years ago for a big vacation. Their school didn't mind. (Same school DH and I both attended many moons ago.) But SIL now lives in another district and it is not allowed.

 

I really think the point is - if you have kids in public school, you have to play by their rules. If they allow it, great. If not, sorry.

[annandatje]

The teacher is negatively effected, as he or she now has to try to remediate for lessons missed. The class is negatively impacted because either they lose class time while their teacher tries to get a child who has willfully been pulled out of class for a week back up to speed, or they suffer the impact of sharing a class with a child who is not up to speed.

 

The student who is pulled out suffers from missing a weeks worth of instruction—which is no small matter. And, in districts like ours where funding is based on a "per diem" basis, the school budget suffers.

 

So pretty much everybody suffers. Is that not obvious?

 

 

It is different because pulling a child out of a class negatively impacts a great number of fellow students and their teacher. If one wants to play by ones own rule then homeschool. But don't send your children to a public school and acts like the social contract does not apply to you.

 

 

All schools care. Your analogy is preposterous. Schools are a community. Selfish behavior undermines that community. I'm banging my head against the wall.

 

Bill

 

:iagree: Flexibility for travel is a benefit of homeschooling.

[magnificent_baby]

Ok, now that I have read through the responses I noticed:

 

-many of the posters who think pulling a child for a vacation is ok also either had bad experiences with PS or are still having bad experiences with PS. This colors their opinion on the matter.

 

-those who homeschool often have a "maverick" mindset and want to march to the beat of their own drum rather than join in with the band. There is nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't mix well when one who thinks the rules are stupid and either don't or shouldn't apply to them also have their children in a group education setting where group rules are the norm.

 

-the "I'm going to do what I want to do and I don't care what anyone thinks and how dare you infringe on my right to do exactly as I please" mindset WHILE still expecting to be part of a group that has certain standards and expecting that group to lovingly embrace your individualism-run-amok or be labeled a family-time-hater actually IS a bit selfish. I am not sure where everyone got this idea that a family vacation is some kind of civil right every person is entitled to?

 

-I don't get the "well, our school sucks anyways so who cares if my kid misses a day?" attitude either. If your school is THAT bad either pull your child out or roll up your sleeves and be a part of making it better. Contributing to the problem by disrespecting class time and a teacher's time is not the answer. But if it makes you feel better to justify your choices that way then...proceed.

 

I am very thankful at this moment to work at a private school where parents who disregard the importance of what we are doing here are asked to leave and that spot is filled with a child whose parents are willing to fully support what we are trying to do. I don't think I can ever work in a PS and be that beholden to parental whims again.

 

Also, I am agreeing with Bill and I think someone should write that down. ;)

 

 

.

 

nm

Edited August 19, 2012 by magnificent_baby
shared TMI

[GoVanGogh]

Flexibility for travel is a benefit of homeschooling.

Amen!

[Joker]

Standardized testing can be a problem, but we take our vacation to visit family in early May. Testing is over and school is almost done. We fill out the paperwork, dd gets the work completed, and no one cares that she's not there that week. We can't travel on the school's summer schedule due to dh's job and we can't travel during the winter break due to that part of the family's schedule.

 

I really can't believe some of the language used to describe those that go on vacation during the ps school year. :001_huh: If my dd's school has no problem with it, why the heck does anyone else?

 

ETA: I wanted to add that we don't travel during the school's spring break because it is right before the state testing. That is just a relaxing week for dd before the craziness begins.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Horton

[creekland]

:iagree: Flexibility for travel is a benefit of homeschooling.

 

I don't think anyone disputes that. ;) But for some of us who, for various reasons, have one or more of ours in ps, vacations can still be part of life - no matter when they are taken.

 

If I were in a state where the school did not let me travel with excused absences for a relative's funeral, I'd be taking them to court. Trying to stop vacations is one thing and I'd still dis-enroll/re-enroll as necessary - which should "cure" the problem there. Trying to prevent attendance at things like funerals is another and should be illegal. They may need proof of the death/funeral, but that's easily obtained.

[clarkacademy]

I think if you are going to put your kids in public school you need to follow the public school rules no matter how stupid they seem to you. I mean you put them in school because you think that is where they belong so following the rules is part of it.

 

If you don't like their standards don't put your kid there. My oldest goes to public school and it is nothing but a hassle but that is the way it is. If it is not medically documented she cannot make up work period. She sees her dad three times a year and one time it fell on her last day before vacation.

 

I called the school and it didn't matter. She was unexused and no make up work was allowed. It is stupid but that is life. My father was military and two of my brothers still serve, one is over in Korea right now. None of them would dream of having a kid miss school. Yes they miss their kids, yes they wanna be with them. They both say they do their job, come rain or shine they do their job and they both feel they are instilling that value in their kids because a kids job is school.

 

Again I think public school is stupid but my oldest is there so I deal with it.

[Haiku]

And what if the school rules allow for family vacations? The assumption seems to be that those who take their kids out are breaking the school's rules, and that's not always the case.

 

Tara

[Spy Car]

If I were in a state where the school did not let me travel with excused absences for a relative's funeral, I'd be taking them to court. Trying to stop vacations is one thing and I'd still dis-enroll/re-enroll as necessary - which should "cure" the problem there. Trying to prevent attendance at things like funerals is another and should be illegal. They may need proof of the death/funeral, but that's easily obtained.

 

Every jurisdiction I'm aware of includes deaths in the family as an "excused" absence. But taking off for a week because the lines are shorter at Disney World in October is not permissible in any school district I'm aware of. It is "truancy," it is illegal, and can get a parent in a heap of trouble if you get labeled a chronic truant.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

Every jurisdiction I'm aware of includes deaths in the family as an "excused" absence. But taking off for a week because the lines are shorter at Disney World in October is not permissible in any school district I'm aware of. It is "truancy," it is illegal, and can get a parent in a heap of trouble if you get labeled a chronic truant.

 

Bill

 

My youngest sister was diagnosed with breast cancer at 29. We took her and her dd with us to Disney the February we moved back to CONUS from Hawaii. We wanted to do it while she could still walk around and enjoy it, not knowing how long she had for trips like that. She cannot walk around all day like that now, soI am very glad that selfishly we did it while she could and that her school allowed her dd to be "truant" for a few days. Do a few days in a child's *13 YEAR* school career matter that much? If they do, then that doesn't say much for the school system.

[Spy Car]

My youngest sister was diagnosed with breast cancer at 29. We took her and her dd with us to Disney the February we moved back to CONUS from Hawaii. We wanted to do it while she could still walk around and enjoy it, not knowing how long she had for trips like that. She cannot walk around all day like that now, soI am very glad that selfishly we did it while she could and that her school allowed her dd to be "truant" for a few days. Do a few days in a child's *13 YEAR* school career matter that much? If they do, then that doesn't say much for the school system.

 

Again, a extraordinary family circumstance that I think anyone could understand. But exceptions do not make the rule. Someone taking off just because they feel like it is a very different scenario.

 

Sorry about your sister.

 

Bill

[Pawz4me]

But taking off for a week because the lines are shorter at Disney World in October is not permissible in any school district I'm aware of.

 

Methinks you aren't familiar with very many school districts!

 

As I said many pages back, I took my kids out a few times when they were in elementary school, and all the absences were done with the teachers' (and therefore the school's) pre-approval. Just about any kind of travel is considered a valid educational opportunity by our county's school system.

[creekland]

Every jurisdiction I'm aware of includes deaths in the family as an "excused" absence.

 

I'm only going off what I read on here from others experiences. Our school certainly considers those excused absences.

 

But taking off for a week because the lines are shorter at Disney World in October is not permissible in any school district I'm aware of. It is "truancy," it is illegal, and can get a parent in a heap of trouble if you get labeled a chronic truant.

 

Bill

 

These are also excused absences at our school - no need to hide the destination or the reason. TRAVEL is educational. Any travel. We've been many places in Jan/Feb and oodles of kids go on cruises, to Disney, to the beach, or elsewhere during the school year. As long as they fill out the per-arranged absence form ahead of time, it's no problem at all. Bon Voyage!

 

Your district is different than mine. You can be glad you live in yours and I'll be glad I live in mine. As I said, my youngest is planning a trip to Jamaica this Jan. It's not with family, but it's still educational... and he'll have his missed days as excused absences just like before. ;)

 

You can get into issues when you're labeled a chronic truant. Our school issues letters and will take parents to court (they issue fines). The difference is pre-approved absences are not truancy. Staying at home and coming to school on the "every other day plan" or "four day a week plan" are truancy. Those are the kids who are hurt educationally as they hardly stay at home learning new (worthwhile) things or hitting their books. Kids who travel - even to Disney - do learn quite a bit.

[creekland]

Methinks you aren't familiar with very many school districts!

 

 

:iagree:;)

 

There appear to be some different types out there and due to their funding CA may be full of Bill's type, but all of those I'm familiar with allow vacations (no time limit) as excused. As I said before, it's even ok if teachers go on vacations here (one week every two years if they want their days all at once). I certainly prefer it that way to the workaholic alternative.

[elegantlion]

Plucked from my high schools website, current information:

 

"Pre-arranged Absences

To accommodate students and parents who cannot avoid scheduling conflicts,

we allow one family vacation, approved in advance with a valid make-up slip

from the Attendance Office, per school year. The parent must send a written

request to the Attendance Office prior to the absence. A student receiving

office approval prior to a vacation is responsible for securing assignments from

his or her teachers. The teacher will assign the date the assignments are due.

Teachers may request students to do make-up work before or after school.

Students who have major assignments (i.e. final projects, research papers) due

on the day of an absence must make arrangements for those assignments to be

turned in on that day."

[SKL]

Again, a extraordinary family circumstance that I think anyone could understand. But exceptions do not make the rule. Someone taking off just because they feel like it is a very different scenario.

 

Sorry about your sister.

 

Bill

 

Rather than have to justify every important trip to the school as an "extraordinary" circumstance, doesn't it make more sense for the school to have a policy that recognizes that families are going to travel during the school year? I mean, everyone has deaths in their family, big "worth it" opportunities, and feeling sick but not sick enough to need a doctor visit.

 

Has the strict policy in California resulted in more quality learning? Or just a lot of red tape when people inevitably take time off?

[Mrs Mungo]

Rather than have to justify every important trip to the school as an "extraordinary" circumstance, doesn't it make more sense for the school to have a policy that recognizes that families are going to travel during the school year? I mean, everyone has deaths in their family, big "worth it" opportunities, and feeling sick but not sick enough to need a doctor visit.

 

Has the strict policy in California resulted in more quality learning? Or just a lot of red tape when people inevitably take time off?

 

:iagree: Plenty of families will have an exceptional circumstance in any given year. Does anyone really think it makes more sense to drive families *toward* homeschooling, if they want to be able to remove their kids from school for a few days during the school year?

[MBM]

But taking off for a week because the lines are shorter at Disney World in October is not permissible in any school district I'm aware of. It is "truancy," it is illegal, and can get a parent in a heap of trouble if you get labeled a chronic truant.

 

That might be true in your district and those you know of, but it isn't true of mine. Truant in our district means a student who missed school without a valid cause.

Vacation days in our district fall under the category of "Special Absences." The student has to follow certain procedures to make it legal, but they are not considered truant if they do so.

Chronic truancy in our district is defined as 10% of the 180 compulsory school days, so that would be 18 missed days without valid cause.

I like my district.

[Haiku]

Every jurisdiction I'm aware of includes deaths in the family as an "excused" absence.

 

The district we used to live in had guidelines as to who was considered family and who wasn't. Great uncles, for example, didn't count, but cousins did. It's this kind of ridiculous micromanagement of families' private lives that drives the "screw the schools" attitudes. If someone close to use dies and we decide to attend the funeral, I'll be d@mned if the school tells me that person isn't important enough to us to justify an excused absence. This is especially important to me because we are an adoptive family, so my kids aren't blood related to anyone in our family. We made our family intentionally and we will decide whom we count as family, be they legally, genetically, or emotionally related to us. You can poo-poo this all you want, but it's that kind of interference in my family's personal life that I won't accept the school imposing just because we contract with them to provide our child an education. I also know of an adoptive family whose child was denied an excused absence to attend the funeral of her birthfather; the school did not consider him family.

 

It is "truancy," it is illegal, and can get a parent in a heap of trouble if you get labeled a chronic truant.

 

Taking a vacation and being "chronically" truant are not the same thing. And in many districts, vacationing kids aren't truant.

 

In our district, about 5 years ago, there was a huge push to corral truant kids. The TV stations, radio stations, newspaper, and billboards were full of advertisements for the truancy hotline and the steps to take if you sighted a truant student. This went on for several years. Kids were literally snatched off the street by police and truant officers and taken to the school district's holding center until parents could be contacted. It was an outrage, pure and simple, and after two years of this, suddenly all the advertisements and exhortations vanished. It was a huge public relations nightmare and civil rights violation. There were stories of visiting kids who weren't even enrolled in the district snatched off the street. There was a story of a refugee child who had just arrived from Sudan and who didn't speak any English snatched off the street. In the end it was realized that the best way to handle truancy is to deal with individual family circumstances and not with some blanket, guilty-until-proven-innocent witch hunt.

 

I don't ask permission for my child to miss school. I inform the school of when she will be missing and go about my business.

 

Of course, I am also probably biased because last year the school's principal tried to interfere in our child's medical care. (Note: our child's IEP is written for Otherwise Health Impaired specifically so that her health care needs can be met without impacting her rights at school.)

 

Someone taking off just because they feel like it is a very different scenario.

 

You made the argument that students missing school harms everyone in ways that you made sound very catastrophic. If that's the case, it doesn't really matter why the child misses school; the harm happens anyway. If that's the case, then the school shouldn't really care why the student is missing and shouldn't impose guidelines on what's excused and what's not. How about we leave it to parents to make the decisions about where their child will be (at school or off frittering their time away on vacation or attending an approved family member's funeral) AND let the parents take responsibility for making sure the student completes the missed work and learns the material. That way there is no harm done. Sounds so ... simple.

 

I missed a week of school in 3rd grade for my grandmother's wedding. My teacher, Mrs. Byrum, was excited for me and asked me to create a family album to share with the kids when I got back. No one was even remotely worried about my missed work. I made it up. Done. No muss, no fuss.

 

Tara

Edited August 19, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator

[SonshineLearner]

Yes for 8th and under, no for 9th and above... :)

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes for 8th and under, no for 9th and above... :)

 

I missed school many times for band or academic competitions while in high school. What is the difference, if the effects are as terrible for the school as Bill says?

[Spy Car]

The district we used to live in had guidelines as to who was considered family and who wasn't. Great uncles, for example, didn't count, but cousins did. It's this kind of ridiculous micromanagement of families' private lives that drives the "screw the schools" attitudes.

 

No, I don't think so. I think some people have a "screw everybody" mentality and think the rules don't apply to themselves no matter how much harm their selfish actions might take. So schools have to try to create reasonable (but sometimes imperfect) guidelines.

 

If people just acted responsibly these guidelines would be unnecessary. But people prove time and again that a "me first" mentality often trumps responsible behavior.

 

There is no excuse for take a week off during the school term to go to Disney World.

 

If someone close to use dies and we decide to attend the funeral, I'll be d@mned if the school tells me that person isn't important enough to us to justify an excused absence. This is especially important to me because we are an adoptive family, so my kids aren't blood related to anyone in our family. We made our family intentionally and we will decide whom we count as family, be they legally, genetically, or emotionally related to us. You can poo-poo this all you want, but it's that kind of interference in my family's personal life that I won't accept the school imposing just because we contract with them to provide our child an education. I also know of an adoptive family whose child was denied an excused absence to attend the funeral of her birthfather; the school did not consider him family.

 

Every district policy I've seen has exemptions for deaths in families. As they should. But you can not conflate exceptional circumstances with "just cuz."

 

It is just common sense.

 

Bill

[elegantlion]

I grew up in an area were a large majority of parents worked for an airline, sadly mine did not. It was not uncommon for kids to take multiple long weekends (at any age) or vacations when the parents had very liberal fly for free allowances.

 

I'm sure our district had to accommodate those students and parents otherwise they would have simply moved to one of the other districts in the area. This was a large wealthy suburban family and many of these students were high achieving students. None of this was done with a screw the school mentality, family time and travel opportunities were supported in the district.

 

I know many of these trips were "fun" ski trips or trips to Disney World.

 

Some of this conversation makes me wonder how employers tolerate adults taking scheduled time off during the year, that certainly messes with productivity more than one student missing a few days for a family outing. :tongue_smilie:

[Haiku]

There is no excuse for take a week off during the school term to go to Disney World.

 

 

Except for the situation upthread that you said was a reasonable reason to do so. ;)

 

If people just acted responsibly these guidelines would be unnecessary.

 

But here we run into different definitions of "responsibly." I think it is responsible to take my child out of school for a family trip and ensure that she makes up her work. I think this is both reasonable and responsible (although I wouldn't be caught dead at Disney World). Just because you wouldn't take your child out of school for vacation and I would doesn't mean you are responsible and I am not.

 

I'm certainly not accusing you of being anal and uptight for not doing so. I'm taking the tack that if you want your kid in school every school day for his entire career, that's fine by me. But that doesn't mean I have to live by your personal code. And I fail to buy into the idea that a child missing school for family time is catastrophically harmful, as you keep proposing. My child is a senior in high school. She's survived six (and about to be seven) years of kids (herself and others) missing school for various reasons, and no harm has come to her. I promise. :D She even missed the entire first week of school her sophomore year to attend the camp she attends every year for kids with her medical condition, and she still has already (as an entering senior) won a full scholarship for her freshman year of college.

 

Tara

[MBM]

There is no excuse for take a week off during the school term to go to Disney World.

 

Well, a week of Disney would be a bit much for me, but on a similar note, my son had to go to Six Flags Great America last year for one whole school day for his physics class. All physics kids had to go or write a three-page paper. A fun way to learn about some of the concepts if you ask me.

 

This thread reminds me of Mark Twain's quote: "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."

 

:D

[SKL]

Some of this conversation makes me wonder how employers tolerate adults taking scheduled time off during the year, that certainly messes with productivity more than one student missing a few days for a family outing. :tongue_smilie:

 

Good point! Apparently Bill thinks it is less selfish for a professional adult to take a week off work during busy season than for a little kid to take a week off school. (And he seems to think the same of even a day or two off.)

 

Or maybe he just thinks folks who work all summer don't deserve vacations.

[Spy Car]

Good point! Apparently Bill thinks it is less selfish for a professional adult to take a week off work during busy season than for a little kid to take a week off school. (And he seems to think the same of even a day or two off.)

 

Or maybe he just thinks folks who work all summer don't deserve vacations.

 

Schools have Winter Breaks and Spring Breaks. If summer is the busy season in the profession you have chosen then you have other opportunities to plan family vacations that do not necessitate pulling a child out of school.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

Schools have Winter Breaks and Spring Breaks. If summer is the busy season in the profession you have chosen then you have other opportunities to plan family vacations that do not necessitate pulling a child out of school.

 

Bill

 

Honestly, you don't know that. People who work in the tourist industry, for example, work extra when everybody else is vacationing. When my dad worked in a warehouse? He worked night and day during the whole Christmas season we were out of school.

 

Again, it is *not* catastrophic to pull a kid out of school for a few days and do the work on your own. If it would be, then the schools would not allow kids to participate in extra-curricular activities during schooltime, at all. Many of our band competitions included days of sight-seeing. If the schools don't have a problem with that, then they should not have a problem with family travel.

 

Sure, there should be a cap on the number of days a kid can miss. Yes, if you don't help your kid do the work on his/her own, then *that* is irresponsible. But, people taking time with their kids is not the problem. Refusing to allow parents flexibility is what pushes middle class families away from the school system. That is the last thing the school system should be doing.

 

Isn't your kid in first grade this year? Do you honestly think that your will won't ever conflict with the school's desire in the next twelve years?

[*Michelle*]

Not everyone wants to take their vacation over Christmas or Easter.

[SKL]

Schools have Winter Breaks and Spring Breaks. If summer is the busy season in the profession you have chosen then you have other opportunities to plan family vacations that do not necessitate pulling a child out of school.

 

Bill

 

What industry do you and your wife work in that always allows you to take your vacation at the same time your kids and everyone else's kids are out of school?

 

I assume you aren't in the tax industry if you think the first couple weeks of April are fair game.

 

Winter break - yeah, it's always 100% guaranteed that the workload and extended family schedules will cooperate with a trip at that time.

[Spy Car]

If adults are too busy to take a vacation in the Fall (at Thansgiving), and too busy to take a vacation at Christmas, and too busy to take a vacation in Spring, and too busy to take a vacation in Summer, then maybe they are too durn busy to take a vacation. That doesn't give an adult a valid excuse to yank a child out of school for a week durning the term.

 

Bill

[elegantlion]

Schools have Winter Breaks and Spring Breaks. If summer is the busy season in the profession you have chosen then you have other opportunities to plan family vacations that do not necessitate pulling a child out of school.

 

Bill

 

Many schools are limiting those breaks as well. Our district's spring break is all of a long weekend at Easter.

 

Many companies don't let their employees off at Christmas. If they do and if they do the scheduled according to seniority, many lower level employees will never get off over Christmas.

 

Not everyone wants to travel during late December either. Prices are higher, weather is bad (although that's probably our fault for living in a place with four seasons), property taxes are due, and airports and highways are more crowded.

[elegantlion]

If adults are too busy to take a vacation in the Fall (at Thansgiving), and too busy to take a vacation at Christmas, and too busy to take a vacation in Spring, and too busy to take a vacation in Summer, then maybe they are too durn busy to take a vacation. That doesn't give an adult a valid excuse to yank a child out of school for a week durning the term.

 

Bill

 

Oh, yes they get three full days off at Thanksgiving. Again, bad weather, higher prices, big crowds, the perfect time to travel. :lol: You know, not every adult has full control of their vacation schedule. Yanking a child out of child sounds like they're super glued to their chairs somehow.