VeritasMama Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 My response is to feel hunkered down ready to hear the attacks. My feelings are mixed. I grew up in a feminist home. I considered myself a feminist. Then I went to a women's college and met the Dworkinites mixing up this weird anti-p*rn crusade with feminism. And met the people who misguidedly thought that marriage was anti-feminist. Or that motherhood was (like the article that was linked above). I never bought into that nonsense. P*rn, marriage and motherhood are all fine by me and, I think, fine by feminism. But I don't think that's what feminism is and I think it's vastly unfair for society to judge feminism by its most radical fringes or say it "failed" because of its most radical elements any more than one should judge all Democrats by Dennis Kucinich or all Republicans by Ron Paul. Or, to put it in a different context, to judge all romance novels by 50 Shades of Gray or all modern art by Duchamp's infamous toilet. I agree with all the points you make. But I don't think that feminism is being judged harshly because of it's radical fringes, I think that those who openly oppose feminism are also on the fringe. I think that feminism has become such a hot topic today because the movement itself has started to attack women who don't hold a certain set of beliefs. Feminism today is going to turn itself into a fringe group all together if it continues to exclude individuals such as myself, individuals who believe in equal rights for women but are also conservative and pro-life in our personal belief systems. There used to be room for people such as myself in the movement, and the only reason I don't openly identify as a feminist today is because I have been told by so many feminist friends and family that I can't do so if I am pro-life. You get the same message from feminists in the media. Since half of women identify as pro-life, it is a very devisive stance to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Feminism <--that word I embrace it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 This thread reminds of how I am regularly reminding my dd all she takes for granted. She really doesn't comprehend what a big some of these things are. It's just so far from real to her. In some ways that's good, it means we have come a long way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tristangrace Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that women and men have equal value as persons and equal rights under the law? With all my heart, I agree. Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that the only difference between women and men is the genitalia? Ridiculous. I think women that promote that idea are insecure sexists: they worry that women are not valuable unless they imitate men; ergo, they value men more than women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeritasMama Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that women and men have equal value as persons and equal rights under the law? With all my heart, I agree. Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that the only difference between women and men is the genitalia? Ridiculous. I think women that promote that idea are insecure sexists: they worry that women are not valuable unless they imitate men; ergo, they value men more than women. :iagree::iagree::iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that women and men have equal value as persons and equal rights under the law? With all my heart, I agree. Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that the only difference between women and men is the genitalia? Ridiculous. I think women that promote that idea are insecure sexists: they worry that women are not valuable unless they imitate men; ergo, they value men more than women. Beautiful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that the only difference between women and men is the genitalia? Ridiculous. I think women that promote that idea are insecure sexists: they worry that women are not valuable unless they imitate men; ergo, they value men more than women. Do you really know any women over the age of 25 who think that? I have a wide range of female friends including very conservative, traditional women and confirmed feminist lesbians. I don't know any women who think the only differences between men and women are genetalia. I think there has been so much interesting research and writing about the differences in gender that this kind of thinking is very unusual. My most liberal friends tend to be equally as interested in the research as my conservative friends. They may interpret and find it useful in different ways, but I don't know any real women who aren't aware of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Feminism <--that word First wave or last wave? Each brings forward different words and responses for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Interesting Point MD. I mean really...can you imagine someone walking up to say..Cleopatra and dissin' her with a "you radical feminist" diatribe? I think most folks look at contemporary US History (which is honestly very young overall) - and I think also, the home/culture in which you were raised is a factor, as is the media, (both past and present) - and if...endless if's...really. I think we tend to think in the current moment and in a Western way sometimes in the popular media. But over space/time and globally - there's something of a middle and extremes for examples everywhere. It's interesting to see where people in the here and now in their day to day lives. Even if one were to take the here and now and try to view it with a National Geographic style survey, it's still all over the map and the bands are very broad in spectrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annandatje Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 What is your emotional/intellectual response to this word? Gratitude and admiration for those who fought for women's right to vote, to own property, for the right to access contraception without husband's consent, for opportunity and later equality in the workplace, etc. I view feminism as a subset of human rights. All social, economic, and political justice movements have their extremist shock jock philosophizers and protesters. I ignore those and keep my eye on the prize, the ultimate noble goal of the movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tristangrace Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Do you really know any women over the age of 25 who think that? I have a wide range of female friends including very conservative, traditional women and confirmed feminist lesbians. I don't know any women who think the only differences between men and women are genetalia. I think there has been so much interesting research and writing about the differences in gender that this kind of thinking is very unusual. My most liberal friends tend to be equally as interested in the research as my conservative friends. They may interpret and find it useful in different ways, but I don't know any real women who aren't aware of it. Let's see . . . I'm 42, and I tend to have these conversations with people in the mid-20s to late 40's age range. No one has stated what they believe in those exact terms, no. (I'm sure, for example, that everyone knows that there are chromosomal and hormonal differences, etc--genitalia is shorthand for physical bodies). I have heard many women IRL assert the idea that men and women are functionally interchangeable. For example, even though we agree that both women and men make good bosses/employees, they deny that women, generally speaking, bring different skills and perspectives to their jobs than men do. I understand the (over)sensitivity here: after all, women were denied many jobs that they were well-suited for on the grounds that they were women, and to acknowledge that men and women, generally speaking, have different strengths and weaknesses feels threatening, because it may lead to the idea that some jobs may be better suited for men than women, and vice versa. I can understand why that feels threatening--I share their uneasiness. But it seems silly to cope with that by denying that "masculinity" and "femininity" are meaningful constructs. Younger women I know--those in their mid-20s--seem particularly eager to assert that women and men want the same things when it comes to sex and marriage. It's not just that when they speak for themselves they say, "I don't want a long-term relationship, I'm happy just hooking up"--that alone wouldn't make my BS radar buzz--it's that they tend to speak scornfully of female peers who DO want a long-term relationship, like it's evidence of weakness. Like women have to adopt the same attitudes that men historically have held, or we're addle-brained ninnies. Similarly, I've met people who insist that mothering and fathering are the same thing. Two mothers, two fathers, one of each--doesn't matter--parenting it parenting. (I've read articles that assert that having two mothers is the best thing for the kids [better than one mom and one dad, and much better than two dads]--it would be interesting to see if they'd kind of relax a bit and say that that is possible [since it asserts that in a least one arena, women do it better], or if they would stick to their guns and say it's a bad study.) Just on the boards here, I'm pretty sure you can find women defending behavior that, 50 years ago, was considered to be ugly sexism in men (rating the hotness of co-workers, etc) on the grounds that . . . wait for . . . men do it! Cause, you know, if men have historically been real asshats along these lines, why shouldn't we? :tongue_smilie: Anyway, it's those sort of things that strike me as belying real insecurity about being female: as if the only way to be valued as a person is to deny that men and women are different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureMoms Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 My first reaction? I'm thrilled to be living in a world that has been changed by feminism. I cannot imagine why anyone would not agree with the feminist ideal of equal rights and opportunities for women. I'm always baffled when people start talking about how men don't open doors for women, etc, anymore. I can't even comprehend it. The feminist movement gave us the right to vote, to go to school, to support our families, to make choices for ourselves. It gave abused women legal recourse. And people are sad because we have to open our own doors. I do think that the shift to two earner households is a larger change, but I think feminism plays only a small part in that. There are a LOT of other factors - health care, higher standard of living, rising fuel costs, rising educational costs, longer life expectancy - that cause many families to need two incomes. Most of those are not really related to feminism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubiac Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 My paternal grandmother was a high school English teacher most of her life, with a long break off in the middle to raise two sons. Generally speaking, she was tough as nails. Rigorous, to be sure. Her take on feminism was that it ruined the teaching profession, because all the extremely high-performing females who were once professional restricted to teacher-nurse-secretary then went out and did everything else. Heh. I always thought that was an interesting cranky take on matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that women and men have equal value as persons and equal rights under the law? With all my heart, I agree. Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that the only difference between women and men is the genitalia? Ridiculous. I think women that promote that idea are insecure sexists: they worry that women are not valuable unless they imitate men; ergo, they value men more than women. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialClassical Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 My emotional response? Meh. Whatever. The word means so many different things to so many poeple. I believe people should be evaluated by the value of their character, not their gender. However... As a movement feminism has done some good and has gone overboard into man hating and trying to make women and men the same. We don't look the same, think the same or experience life in the same way. Research shows that over and over. (And that is coming from a woman who was ready to go five kinds of crazy on the local patriarchal homeschool man who stated that men should encourage their wives to shop freely at the homeschool conference and then expect they would get a private reward. You know, because all women love to shop:angry: And all men want a litte somethin' , somethin' after forking out money. GAG. :glare: I still want to spit at that guy.) Stereotypes stink and rabid feminism stinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WagsWife Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Honestly I am not so sure you can blame this on feminism instead of economic forces. Of course there are some who really do need to have two incomes, but I truly believe that this is not the case for the majority of two income families. My husband has supported our family with one job for the past 20 years. Military the first 19, and civilian the past year. It is not cheap to live in California, what we spend in rent would make my family have anxiety attacks, and believe me, we don't have anything fancy. We have had to make sacrifices. We don't have two new cars, we don't take vacations, we have had the same living room furniture for 11 years, etc. The people I know, who have two incomes, spend a LOT more money than we do. Vacations, new vehicles every few years, boats/jet skis, etc. That is their choice to make, and I support that. But, they don't *NEED* two incomes to support their family...they need two incomes to support their life style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Misunderstood. I started a huge thread about feminism a couple months ago and feminism is clearly the victim of "once I knew a judgemental man-hater who was feminist) type feelings. It's unfortunate to say the least. :iagree: Thanks for saving me the trouble of typing out the same post. Lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeslieAnneLevine Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Positive. Love it. Claim it. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 My husband has supported our family with one job for the past 20 years. Military the first 19, and civilian the past year. It is not cheap to live in California, what we spend in rent would make my family have anxiety attacks, and believe me, we don't have anything fancy. We have had to make sacrifices. We don't have two new cars, we don't take vacations, we have had the same living room furniture for 11 years, etc. My mother, who was the SAHM daughter of a professional woman, said she and father saved for 11 months to buy a ringer washing machine (this was just post-war), and she dried the cloth diapers all winter long on lines in the basement as no one had driers. And then she noted that when people got married "nowadays", they expect to start out with what their parents have, and if they don't have a trust fund, both have to go to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureMoms Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 My mother, who was the SAHM daughter of a professional woman, said she and father saved for 11 months to buy a ringer washing machine (this was just post-war), and she dried the cloth diapers all winter long on lines in the basement as no one had driers. And then she noted that when people got married "nowadays", they expect to start out with what their parents have, and if they don't have a trust fund, both have to go to work. I think this is very true, and I also think that the notion that before feminism women didn't work for pay is very very shortsighted. Women worked beside their husbands on farms, women took in washing, women baked or cooked or sewed for others, women worked in factories, and so forth. Also, children worked, often as soon as they were able, and sometimes at the expense of their education. My grandfather was required to start working to support the family when he was 13 (quit school to become a house painter). Whole families in the middle or working classes entirely supported in a comfortable manner by only one income was a unique phenomenon that occurred among certain classes of people in the US during the post-war period of rapid economic growth. Before that, women worked, children worked, anyone who could work, worked to support the family. Women were just paid less and restricted from certain jobs that paid well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I don't really know what it's supposed to mean. It makes no sense to say "feminism" is about equality. It doesn't mention the male side of said equality. Why not just say "equality" if that's what we're talking about? What I've seen most under the label "feminism" is accusing certain well-meaning people/groups of hating women and wanting to subjugate, humiliate, and otherwise harm them. The second thing that stands out is the way "feminists" attack women who don't agree with their pet agendas. I would never want to be associated with the term "feminism." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) Used to demean women as other posters did above. Does anyone *really* believe that feminism is why people can barely pay their bills? It sounds more like an excuse sexist men use. They blame women because pay is down and inflation is up. :lol: My vote. Edited July 13, 2012 by Sis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WiseOwlKnits Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 To be honest, I'm not a fan of feminism. I think feminism hurt us way more than it's helped us. I'm all for the "girls can do anything boys can do," but I honestly think our society would be better if there were more stay at home parents and less households where both parents had to work just in order to survive. (Note I said stay at home PARENTS, not stay at home MOMS.) :leaving: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureMoms Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Used to demean women as other posters did above. Does anyone *really* believe that feminism is why people can barely pay their bills? It sounds more like an excuse sexist men use. They blame women because pay is down and inflation is up. :lol: My vote. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I agree as well. I was raised by feminists, my grandmothers and mother and aunts all paved the way for my sisters and I to be in the workforce, and I appreciate that. But it came at a high price, being raised by a single mother who is very focused on her career is hard. I often think that the sacrafices we have made in our lives is not worth it, but other days I think that they are. Either way, I always considered myself a feminist, and my in-laws are what I would consider feminists as well. However, I no longer use that label, because the movement has become very monolithic. I have pretty much been berated by every "feminist" I know because I am pro-life, which includes using natural forms of birth control. It also ruffled feathers when I decided to leave my career behind and become a SAHM and a homeschooler. It has also caused people around me to become uncomfortable because we decided to keep having kids. Our choice to have a larger family leaves us open to the most absurd and insulting comments. Even strangers feel as though they have the right to comment out in public. The working mothers I know just don't understand it, they act like I am allowing my husband to enslave me because I don't work and I have so many children. They look at my life as burdonsome, and they pity me. This is hard for me to put up with, because my life is far from perfect, but I love it. I resisted the whole stay at home mom thing for years because it ran contrary to how I was raised, and it meant that my mother's hard work would have been in vain. I have been treated like I am "dragging my sisters down" with my choices. But, when I finally decided to stay at home and have more kids, I found a peace and happiness I hadn't had before when we had fewer children and I was working. Raising a larger family truly was what I had always wanted. It was the choice that was right for me. I don't think there is one right way to raise a family. That is why it is so ironic that so many people are uncomfortable with my decisions, since I try hard not to judge theirs. I am grateful to the feminist movement of the past, but weary of the feminist movement of today. :iagree: I understand all of the above, and agree w/most of your points. I also stand by my previous comments that the way feminism has come to be portrayed in the media turns my stomach. The laughable idea that I 'owe' anyone my presence in the workplace, that I'm somehow devaluing the efforts of feminism by being at home, w/my kids, having a large family boggles me. It's the same head shake I get when someone tells me I 'owe' my kids, and my presence, to bettering the local ps. The brand of feminism that tries to tell me who I should be, where my value is, and is at the root of the Mommy Wars, is not something I will ever endorse. Equal rights for both genders? Absolutely. But the rest of the malarky that seems to have attached itself to the term? Not on your life. And that's where the current use of 'feminism' loses me. The idea that somehow, it seems to be crusading for women to be superior to men, that men are somehow the enemy, simply b/c they have a p*nis. I have sons. There's no way I could ever agree w/that line of thinking. Perhaps I should consider myself a 'humanist' rather than 'feminist', in that I believe ALL ppl are equal, regardless of gender, nationality, etc. The one point I don't agree w/is the idea that it's due to feminism that men are involved w/their children, and it's to thank for women having a break. There have always been husbands that were attentive fathers, just as now there are still husbands who barely recognize their own kids and tell the wife to get a sitter, b/c he's not going to hang around the house while she goes out. :iagree: Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that women and men have equal value as persons and equal rights under the law? With all my heart, I agree. Feminism defined as promoting/supporting the idea that the only difference between women and men is the genitalia? Ridiculous. I think women that promote that idea are insecure sexists: they worry that women are not valuable unless they imitate men; ergo, they value men more than women. :iagree: And, yes, this is what I was taught left and right growing up. I'm not that old, I'm only 32. My paternal grandmother was a high school English teacher most of her life, with a long break off in the middle to raise two sons. Generally speaking, she was tough as nails. Rigorous, to be sure. Her take on feminism was that it ruined the teaching profession, because all the extremely high-performing females who were once professional restricted to teacher-nurse-secretary then went out and did everything else. Heh. I always thought that was an interesting cranky take on matters. I've heard this before from multiple sources, that before feminism, the brightest females went into teaching and nursing and that those two professions have been particularly hard-hit in terms of the quality of people entering them by the feminist movement. Of course, if true, the effects on the education of generations of Americans would be adversely affected... Of course there are some who really do need to have two incomes, but I truly believe that this is not the case for the majority of two income families. My husband has supported our family with one job for the past 20 years. Military the first 19, and civilian the past year. It is not cheap to live in California, what we spend in rent would make my family have anxiety attacks, and believe me, we don't have anything fancy. We have had to make sacrifices. We don't have two new cars, we don't take vacations, we have had the same living room furniture for 11 years, etc. The people I know, who have two incomes, spend a LOT more money than we do. Vacations, new vehicles every few years, boats/jet skis, etc. That is their choice to make, and I support that. But, they don't *NEED* two incomes to support their family...they need two incomes to support their life style. This has been my experience as well. When people say they "need" two incomes, they generally mean they need them to support where they want to live, the size house they want, the vacations and activities they want, the electronics, vehicles and other toys they want, etc. Of course, as a non-income-earning SAHM, I'm not unusual in my homeschool group. But, even in the playgroup I'm in, most of the moms either work part-time or do one of those mom jobs where they sell consumer junk to each other (bows, bags, food stuff, photography, etc.). And outside of that, my FB friends list with high school and college friends is full of full-time working moms supporting their chosen lifestyle. I know that not every family can afford to survive off one income, but once you're middle class, generally it's a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 What is your emotional/intellectual response to this word? Gratitude and admiration for those who fought for women's right to vote, to own property, for the right to access contraception without husband's consent, for opportunity and later equality in the workplace, etc. I view feminism as a subset of human rights. All social, economic, and political justice movements have their extremist shock jock philosophizers and protesters. I ignore those and keep my eye on the prize, the ultimate noble goal of the movement. :iagree: astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Thank goodness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Extremely grateful. Disclaimer: I'm a feminist. I'm also a SAHM, I don't hate men, and I not only acknowledge but embrace the differences between men and women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theYoungerMrsWarde Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) I've heard this before from multiple sources, that before feminism, the brightest females went into teaching and nursing and that those two professions have been particularly hard-hit in terms of the quality of people entering them by the feminist movement. Of course, if true, the effects on the education of generations of Americans would be adversely affected... Hasn't it been? I think the quality of education in America has gone down significantly! Yes there are other factors, but I think that it has been adversely affected. And kudos to everyone for keeping this thread from becoming vile and full of attacks. :hurray: Edited July 13, 2012 by theYoungerMrsWarde Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Hasn't it been? I think the quality of education in America has gone down significantly! Yes there are other factors, but I think that it has been adversely affected. And kudos to everyone for keeping this thread from becoming vile and full of attacks. :hurray: Well, I actually agree, hence the ... ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Emotional response: Eye roll. I think it has made a grand mess of several generations. I hate that any mom has to now justify her worth if she chooses to be *just* a mom. I hate what it is now. Intelectual response: I understand why and how the feminist movement happened. I don't disagree with some of the outcomes. I think it's an evidence of the sin nature of man (and woman). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Mixed feelings - it depends on who is saying it and in what context. I am very happy women are understood to be persons under the law, able to pursue many professions, and so on. I'm not sure I would say the origins of those things are necessarily the same as what I'd call the modern feminist movement. I am not sure the principles that moved, say, the suffragettes, are the same as the ones that move Gloria Steinem or most people that self-identify today as feminist activists. When I look at modern feminism, it first of all annoys me for a lot of the reasons people above have mentioned - I don't like the way I am supposed to be a woman being defined by them any more than by a bunch of men. But when I really look at what they are saying, it seems to me that they themselves have largeely misunderstood the causes of the problems that exist and in fact have become tools of the forces that they should really be opposing. They have, unwittingly, sold themselves to promote the programs of the corporate/capitalist/political elite who see value only in terms of money try to make people a commodity, and who want to make communities, families, and ultimately individuals powerless. And make sure people by into these things by making them believe they are actually becoming more independent, powerful, and self-actualized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theYoungerMrsWarde Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Well, I actually agree, hence the ... ;) I thought maybe so. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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