Watched the IndoctriNation documentary last night...WOW!

[Donna T.]

That's what I am praying for my nephew. Statistically 88% of christian children walk away from their faith...that leaves 12% who remain. I hope he is one of the 12%

 

 

 

People who walk away from their faiths were never Christians to begin with. You can't walk away from Christ if you belong to Him. First of all, He won't let you walk away for more than a season (He will ALWAYS draw the believer back to Himself). No where does the Bible teach that you can "lose your salvation". That is a totally false teaching.

 

If you want your nephew to not walk away from his faith, then be diligent to stress to him that he must be born again. Once a person is born (spiritually), he will not die (spiritually).

 

The idea that a Christian child could grow up and walk away from their faith and not return is simply false. What is the point in being "born again" if that were true? That which has become alive will never die. Christ offers EVERLASTING life to all who will believe and trust Him. He is faithful and will never allow a child to depart for more than a season. He will always go after the lost sheep and He will always bring him back into the fold.

 

These teachings are meant to be a comfort to us.

 

I went to public school and it was there that God reached me. The schools in my community are definately not pagan. Many, many of the teachers are Christians. I do live in the Bible belt though. :)

[Jenny in Florida]

So, you read it as outrage that VF would sell the movie? I didn't. I read it as, if VF is selling the movie, they endorse it, and I know where they're coming from, so I can see the premise of the movie from that.

 

That was how I read those comments, too.

 

Look, I don't expect PETA to sell a documentary about how to raise hamsters for food. That would not be consistent with their values. I don't expect the NRA to sell books by pacifists. That would not be consistent with the organization's values.

 

But Amazon? It's just a store. I didn't boycott Amazon when people got up in arms about the "pedophile book." I don't plan to boycott them because they sell a film with a specific political/religious agenda. That would be silly.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Jenny in Florida

[Jenny in Florida]

I know more people who have walked away from their faith BECAUSE of indoctrination at the Christian school or homeschool that prevented them from becoming mature, critically thinking adults, whose beliefs they could claim for their very own and not just as an outcome of being forced to give lip service to a faith they hadn't even come to understand.

 

Oh yes. UU churches are full of those folks!

[curlylocks]

They have a goal of "taking back" the country from secularism. This film is intended to lead people down a primrose path to homeschooling in which these same fundamentalists seek to control the dialogue and co-opt the homeschooling movement. We have had thread after thread on this over the years. Look them up. Look up the white paper. Look up the people who were saddened when HSLDA became a fear-mongering extorter of homeschoolers. The information is easy to find.

 

The point of the movie was that the so called "public school" system was originally founded as something VERY different than what it has become.

 

The point of the movie was that it is doubtful that the "public school" system can ever be restored to what it was intended to be.

 

Education cannot happen in a vacuum -- it is either FOR God or AGAINST God. There is no "neutral" position.

 

It bothers me that some feel the need to lump Doug Phillips, VF, HSLDA or whoever into the same category. (and bring it up when it is convenient...so much for following the board rules.)

[Lady Florida.]

People who walk away from their faiths were never Christians to begin with.

 

No true Scotsman?

[nmoira]

No true Scotsman?

It's a convenient argument. :tongue_smilie:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

But, Amy, Vision Forum and HSLDA self-lump all the time. Same conventions, selling each others' books, quoting each others' statistics.

 

Also, the same Jesus who said, "He who is not with me is against me," in Matthew 12:30 also said, "He who is not against us is for us," in Luke 9:50. What to do you do with that?

 

Some people don't agree with Christianity but aren't doing a single solitary thing to hinder or bother the Christian. They aren't "for" Christians but nobody could honestly say they are "against" Christians. My own Dad falls into this category. He is not my enemy. Others in this category include my next-door neighbors, my husband's boss and co-workers, our orthodontist, and my cousin who is a public school teacher.

 

I'm not going to start seeing these people as "against" me because they are not "for" Christianity. Their lives have spoken something different. I'm not going to tell Christians that everyone who enters through the doorway of a public school is "against" them because they are Christians.

 

To tell kids that is fear-mongering, unkind, and dishonest.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

[quote name=curlylocks;3909915

 

Education cannot happen in a vacuum -- it is either FOR God or AGAINST God. There is no "neutral" position.

 

It bothers me that some feel the need to lump Doug Phillips' date=' VF, HSLDA or whoever into the same category. (and bring it up when it is convenient...so much for following the board rules.)[/quote]

 

Sorry, I meant to quote this with my response.

[KnitWit]

It bothers me that some feel the need to lump Doug Phillips, VF, HSLDA or whoever into the same category. (and bring it up when it is convenient...so much for following the board rules.)

 

Actually, if you follow Mrs. Mungo's recommendations, there is quite a history with this group. It is not some kind of false accusation or *love to hate* hobby. It is just pointing out what their typical, proven stance and goals are. It is there to be found if you just take the time to pour yourself a cup of your favorite beverage and start searching. Dr. Raymond Moore wrote the White Paper. That is a good place to start because he really had no dog in the fight. He was not in direct competition for dollars or followers. He had a reputation of being a *servant* to the homeschool community.

[SailorMom]

 

Education cannot happen in a vacuum -- it is either FOR God or AGAINST God. There is no "neutral" position.

.)

 

First - I disagree..... Education can absolutely be neutral.

 

Second - by "for" or "against" God, I assume you mean YOUR God??? What about everyone else's? Just because I am not Christian doesn't make me neutral or against God.

[KnitWit]

http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/articles/070798.htm

 

The White Paper.

 

First page is intro. Next page begins the White Paper.

 

This takes you on the Way Back Machine to what underlies much of the stuff that continues on today.

 

These are the things we should be asking WHY about.

[Jennifer3141]

I have one more question... if you are a believer of this Ham dude and his "compatriots" (who has said SWB isn't one of those "good enough" Christians) why are you posting HERE? If PS is too dangerous to send your kids to, then isn't posting here dangerous too? Isn't the assumption on SWB's own website that she is good enough?

[Mrs Mungo]

The point of the movie was that the so called "public school" system was originally founded as something VERY different than what it has become.

 

You are going to have to make specific points, if you want to discuss that. I don't want to presume that you agree with all of the points in the film.

 

The point of the movie was that it is doubtful that the "public school" system can ever be restored to what it was intended to be.

 

That is only one point of the movie, but if you want to discuss it, then you need to bring up specific points. I don't want to presume that you agree with the entire movie.

 

Education cannot happen in a vacuum -- it is either FOR God or AGAINST God. There is no "neutral" position.

 

What has math to do with God? Or spelling? Or grammar? Or writing a persuasive paper? When it comes to history, which God do you look to? The God of William Wilberforce who worked so hard on behalf of slaves? Or those who claimed that slavery was their Biblical right as superior men? When it comes to science, do you agree with the medieval view that Galileo's view of a heliocentric system defied The Bible and must, therefore, be wrong?

 

It bothers me that some feel the need to lump Doug Phillips, VF, HSLDA or whoever into the same category. (and bring it up when it is convenient...so much for following the board rules.)

 

Is it your claim that none of them have a connection to this movie or one another? What do the board rules have to do with it?

[curlylocks]

You are going to have to make specific points, if you want to discuss that. I don't want to presume that you agree with all of the points in the film.

 

 

 

That is only one point of the movie, but if you want to discuss it, then you need to bring up specific points. I don't want to presume that you agree with the entire movie.

 

 

 

What has math to do with God? Or spelling? Or grammar? Or writing a persuasive paper? When it comes to history, which God do you look to? The God of William Wilberforce who worked so hard on behalf of slaves? Or those who claimed that slavery was their Biblical right as superior men? When it comes to science, do you agree with the medieval view that Galileo's view of a heliocentric system defied The Bible and must, therefore, be wrong?

 

 

 

Is it your claim that none of them have a connection to this movie or one another? What do the board rules have to do with it?

 

You need to watch the movie for yourself...

 

As for the rest, God is the creator of ALL things -- including Order, Numbers, Letters, Man/Woman, etc.

 

I believe in THE God of the Bible - - you should read it and then you'll know where I stand. (Yes, I am a literal reader & intrepretor of the Bible. Yes, I believe in a literal 6-day Creation and Yes, I believe in a Young Earth.)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/articles/070798.htm

 

The White Paper.

 

First page is intro. Next page begins the White Paper.

 

This takes you on the Way Back Machine to what underlies much of the stuff that continues on today.

 

These are the things we should be asking WHY about.

 

Yes. When someone proposes a radical change of perspective and action, says it's for everyone, and persuades with rapid and urgent speech that the time to act is NOW, it's very prudent to stand back for a moment and say, "What you're saying kind of makes sense to me, but first, what's it to you whether or not I agree with you? What's in it for you?"

 

Well, if you are a dominionist you need the whole nation (and eventually the world) to see things like you do and let you be in charge so Jesus can come back and set up an earthly kingdom.

 

If you're a homeschool curriculum supplier and you make a living by selling materials and speaking at conventions, you need a constant source of customers/believers to keep those opportunities to speak and to sell from year to year.

 

These homeschooling sermons are merely some mens' opinions. They are not the gospel of Jesus Christ. That he offers freely, no purchase required, and nothing for the preacher to gain other than the joy of watching a new disciple join the church of our Lord.

 

That's Christianity. Believe in Jesus, repent of your sins, His Grace reaches me, amazing grace, hallelujah.

 

And then, how to live a Christian life?

 

Vision Forum says, "Be like me, have lots of kids, dress this way, speak this way, read these books, go to this convention, fear these people, and hate these people. I guarantee you'll be the ones doing it right. Don't trust yourself to listen to anyone but me. Susan Wise Bauer is dangerous! But you can trust me. And hand over your credit card, this is gonna hurt."

 

Jesus says, "Follow me." He says to love your neighbor as yourself. (Oops, there go the fear and the hate.) He says to give to the poor. (Maybe shouldn't spend every dime enriching the rich, then, because you're scared he can't save your kids if you don't read or watch everything put out by the scaremongers.) He says that salvation is in no other name but His. That means you can't save your kids' souls by homeschooling them or by isolating them in a certain way. You can't world-proof your kids. You can hide them, scare them, shame them, and scar them, but you can't save them. That's the work of Someone Else.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

You need to watch the movie for yourself...

 

As for the rest, God is the creator of ALL things -- including Order, Numbers, Letters, Man/Woman, etc.

 

I believe in THE God of the Bible - - you should read it and then you'll know where I stand. (Yes, I am a literal reader & intrepretor of the Bible. Yes, I believe in a literal 6-day Creation and Yes, I believe in a Young Earth.)

 

I watched it. I'm a literal Bible reader and a YEC and I think this movie itself is Indoctrination.

[nmoira]

You need to watch the movie for yourself...

 

As for the rest, God is the creator of ALL things -- including Order, Numbers, Letters, Man/Woman, etc.

 

I believe in THE God of the Bible - - you should read it and then you'll know where I stand. (Yes, I am a literal reader & intrepretor of the Bible. Yes, I believe in a literal 6-day Creation and Yes, I believe in a Young Earth.)

:confused: Are you suggesting that Mrs. Mungo hasn't read the Bible?

[Mrs Mungo]

You need to watch the movie for yourself...

 

Because I disagree with it is not a good reason to assume that I have not seen it.

 

As for the rest, God is the creator of ALL things -- including Order, Numbers, Letters, Man/Woman, etc.

 

And my children grew in my womb. But, their math book does not need to refer to me in order to teach about math.

 

I believe in THE God of the Bible - - you should read it and then you'll know where I stand. (Yes, I am a literal reader & intrepretor of the Bible. Yes, I believe in a literal 6-day Creation and Yes, I believe in a Young Earth.)

 

Wow. I have read The Bible. I disagree with your interpretation. Nice evading my questions and switching to an ad hominem attack.

[curlylocks]

Yes. When someone proposes a radical change of perspective and action, says it's for everyone, and persuades with rapid and urgent speech that the time to act is NOW, it's very prudent to stand back for a moment and say, "What you're saying kind of makes sense to me, but first, what's it to you whether or not I agree with you? What's in it for you?"

 

Well, if you are a dominionist you need the whole nation (and eventually the world) to see things like you do and let you be in charge so Jesus can come back and set up an earthly kingdom.

 

If you're a homeschool curriculum supplier and you make a living by selling materials and speaking at conventions, you need a constant source of customers/believers to keep those opportunities to speak and to sell from year to year.

 

These homeschooling sermons are merely some mens' opinions. They are not the gospel of Jesus Christ. That he offers freely, no purchase required, and nothing for the preacher to gain other than the joy of watching a new disciple join the church of our Lord.

 

That's Christianity. Believe in Jesus, repent of your sins, His Grace reaches me, amazing grace, hallelujah.

 

And then, how to live a Christian life?

 

Vision Forum says, "Be like me, have lots of kids, dress this way, speak this way, read these books, go to this convention, fear these people, and hate these people. I guarantee you'll be the ones doing it right. Don't trust yourself to listen to anyone but me. Susan Wise Bauer is dangerous! But you can trust me. And hand over your credit card, this is gonna hurt."

 

Jesus says, "Follow me." He says to love your neighbor as yourself. (Oops, there go the fear and the hate.) He says to give to the poor. (Maybe shouldn't spend every dime enriching the rich, then, because you're scared he can't save your kids if you don't read or watch everything put out by the scaremongers.) He says that salvation is in no other name but His. That means you can't save your kids' souls by homeschooling them or by isolating them in a certain way. You can't world-proof your kids. You can hide them, scare them, shame them, and scar them, but you can't save them. That's the work of Someone Else.

 

This is merely your interpretation and opinion...talk about fearmongering and hatred...:glare:

 

I get it...us Bible-believing/Conservative Christians aren't welcome here.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

"You should read the Bible!" I missed that. What a beastly thing to say!

[Coffeetime]

Yes. When someone proposes a radical change of perspective and action, says it's for everyone, and persuades with rapid and urgent speech that the time to act is NOW, it's very prudent to stand back for a moment and say, "What you're saying kind of makes sense to me, but first, what's it to you whether or not I agree with you? What's in it for you?"

 

Well, if you are a dominionist you need the whole nation (and eventually the world) to see things like you do and let you be in charge so Jesus can come back and set up an earthly kingdom.

 

If you're a homeschool curriculum supplier and you make a living by selling materials and speaking at conventions, you need a constant source of customers/believers to keep those opportunities to speak and to sell from year to year.

 

These homeschooling sermons are merely some mens' opinions. They are not the gospel of Jesus Christ. That he offers freely, no purchase required, and nothing for the preacher to gain other than the joy of watching a new disciple join the church of our Lord.

 

That's Christianity. Believe in Jesus, repent of your sins, His Grace reaches me, amazing grace, hallelujah.

 

And then, how to live a Christian life?

 

Vision Forum says, "Be like me, have lots of kids, dress this way, speak this way, read these books, go to this convention, fear these people, and hate these people. I guarantee you'll be the ones doing it right. Don't trust yourself to listen to anyone but me. Susan Wise Bauer is dangerous! But you can trust me. And hand over your credit card, this is gonna hurt."

 

Jesus says, "Follow me." He says to love your neighbor as yourself. (Oops, there go the fear and the hate.) He says to give to the poor. (Maybe shouldn't spend every dime enriching the rich, then, because you're scared he can't save your kids if you don't read or watch everything put out by the scaremongers.) He says that salvation is in no other name but His. That means you can't save your kids' souls by homeschooling them or by isolating them in a certain way. You can't world-proof your kids. You can hide them, scare them, shame them, and scar them, but you can't save them. That's the work of Someone Else.

 

:iagree: Very, very well put.

[SailorMom]

This is merely your interpretation and opinion...talk about fearmongering and hatred...:glare:

 

I get it...us Bible-believing/Conservative Christians aren't welcome here.

 

 

:confused::confused::confused:

 

You're sooooo missing the point.......

Tibbie - great post.

[AdventureMoms]

You need to watch the movie for yourself...

 

As for the rest, God is the creator of ALL things -- including Order, Numbers, Letters, Man/Woman, etc.

 

I believe in THE God of the Bible - - you should read it and then you'll know where I stand. (Yes, I am a literal reader & intrepretor of the Bible. Yes, I believe in a literal 6-day Creation and Yes, I believe in a Young Earth.)

 

Wow.

[Jennifer3141]

This is merely your interpretation and opinion...talk about fearmongering and hatred...:glare:

 

I get it...us Bible-believing/Conservative Christians aren't welcome here.

 

There are a ton of "Bible-believing/Conservative Christians" here. What isn't welcome is your snidely telling other Christians they aren't good enough because they don't follow YOUR exact faith. How many people do you think you drive away with your attitude?

[AdventureMoms]

This is merely your interpretation and opinion...talk about fearmongering and hatred...:glare:

 

I get it...us Bible-believing/Conservative Christians aren't welcome here.

 

Bible-believing is fine by me, but it does seem a bit ironic to call others on hatred when you're bringing the "for us or against us" mentality to the table.

 

I have read the bible, and though I am an atheist, I thought Jesus was a lot more forgiving than that.

[joannqn]

I've read the entire thread. Wow, it is certainly a heated thread.

 

I began homeschooling for academic reasons. It was clear to me that my children would not be well-served, academically, by the public schools here. However, as a Christian, I'm glad they don't go to public school where content doesn't match our beliefs. It's 12 years of being taught content that goes against Biblical teachings that does the most damage to a child's belief system.

 

Even in homeschooling, we can mess this up. My son has a strong interest in astronomy. I wasn't able to find a high level astronomy text that had a Christian view, so I bought him a secular text thinking one book isn't going to be a problem. He now argues the secular views of how the universe was formed, how old the universe is, etc. as fact because that's how they are presented. Very rarely are the problems with those theories also presented. Very rarely are other theories presented along side so they can be compared and discussed. I'm not YE. I'm not OE. I personally don't care how old the earth is because I don't think it affects my salvation. I do care that he now sees these theories as absolute fact with no thought that they might be wrong.

 

Now if one book can influence him that much, how much would 12 years of being presented with secular ideas influence him? We all know the hot-button issues...if our children are taught that certain things are normal, ok, acceptable, correct, right, true, and/or fact for 12 years, is it not possible that our children might come to believe those things despite what we teach them in the few after-school hours left? And if those hot-button issues are acceptable everywhere except in the Bible, is it possible that he'd be influenced to leave the Bible behind, or at the very least, to cherry-pick which parts of the Bible to agree with?

 

When PPs talked about some people calling themselves Christian but not being Christian, this is what I think they were talking about. Many people call themselves Christian but they never go to church, never read the Bible, and follow lifestyles that go against much of what the Bible speaks. I'm not a talking about who has the worse sin here. I'm talking about not even attempting to follow Biblical teachings beyond checking that box.

[Perry]

The most recent study by Barna shows that 75% of all kids raised in a "Christian home" walk away from their faith as adults and the statistics were the same for Christian homeschoolers and parochial schools with Catholic and Lutheran schools doing slightly better than everyone else. So, being sheltered from the public school isn't the big cure-all either.

 

 

Faith

I can't find the original "study" but I found this:

 

A new study from the Barna Research Group of Ventura, California shows that millions of twentysomething Americans - many of whom were active in churches during their teens - pass through their most formative adult decade while putting Christianity on the backburner. The research, conducted with 2,660 twentysomethings, shows that Americans in their twenties are significantly less likely than any other age group to attend church services, to donate to churches, to be absolutely committed to Christianity, to read the Bible, or to serve as a volunteer or lay leader in churches.

 

 

...

 

 

Perhaps the most striking reality of twentysomething’s faith is their relative absence from Christian churches. Only 3 out of 10 twentysomethings (31%) attend church in a typical week, compared to 4 out of 10 of those in their 30s (42%) and nearly half of all adults age 40 and older (49%).

 

I wouldn't think not attending church is the same as walking away from faith. My guess is that many, even most, will return when they start families.

[elegantlion]

That's what I don't get either. Heck, I'd actually give public schools more consideration if I thought paganism was there!! These people don't seem to get that paganism does not equal atheism.

 

:iagree: If there is paganism in the schools, isn't that religion in schools? :001_huh:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning "country dweller", "rustic"[1]) is a blanket term, typically used to refer to religious traditions which are polytheistic* or indigenous.

 

Polytheism is the belief of multiple deities also usually assembled into a pantheon of gods and goddesses, along with their own mythologies and rituals.

 

 

Ah, and there you are, folks.

 

Maybe Time's next cover should be "Are you Christian enough"?

 

:D A committee gets final say of course. You couldn't define that for yourself.

 

You can read into whatever you want. But I personally know plenty of people who call themselves "christians" yet they do so many things contrary to what the bible teaches. Therefore the "statistic" you talked about being skewed could be because someone checks a box that they are christian, but in all essence they live a life contrary to the teachings of Christ.

 

You can call yourself a boy, yet your a girl, that doesn't make it true.

 

And God set you up to be the judge? Try reading Matthew, there's something in there about not judging. Jesus said Love your neighbor as yourself. He didn't mean your neighbor had to believe everything you do.

 

To love ALL others, or just the ones with the same biblical world view as their own?

 

astrid

 

Poor Jesus, he makes a simple statement and so many people try to add their own disclaimers. He didn't say Love your neighbor UNLESS, he said Love your Neighbor as yourself. PERIOD.

[ezrabean2005]

Yes. When someone proposes a radical change of perspective and action, says it's for everyone, and persuades with rapid and urgent speech that the time to act is NOW, it's very prudent to stand back for a moment and say, "What you're saying kind of makes sense to me, but first, what's it to you whether or not I agree with you? What's in it for you?"

 

Well, if you are a dominionist you need the whole nation (and eventually the world) to see things like you do and let you be in charge so Jesus can come back and set up an earthly kingdom.

 

If you're a homeschool curriculum supplier and you make a living by selling materials and speaking at conventions, you need a constant source of customers/believers to keep those opportunities to speak and to sell from year to year.

 

These homeschooling sermons are merely some mens' opinions. They are not the gospel of Jesus Christ. That he offers freely, no purchase required, and nothing for the preacher to gain other than the joy of watching a new disciple join the church of our Lord.

 

That's Christianity. Believe in Jesus, repent of your sins, His Grace reaches me, amazing grace, hallelujah.

 

And then, how to live a Christian life?

 

Vision Forum says, "Be like me, have lots of kids, dress this way, speak this way, read these books, go to this convention, fear these people, and hate these people. I guarantee you'll be the ones doing it right. Don't trust yourself to listen to anyone but me. Susan Wise Bauer is dangerous! But you can trust me. And hand over your credit card, this is gonna hurt."

 

Jesus says, "Follow me." He says to love your neighbor as yourself. (Oops, there go the fear and the hate.) He says to give to the poor. (Maybe shouldn't spend every dime enriching the rich, then, because you're scared he can't save your kids if you don't read or watch everything put out by the scaremongers.) He says that salvation is in no other name but His. That means you can't save your kids' souls by homeschooling them or by isolating them in a certain way. You can't world-proof your kids. You can hide them, scare them, shame them, and scar them, but you can't save them. That's the work of Someone Else.

 

The bolded is my original point way back on page 1 or 2.

 

Tibbie, I have one of your posts printed out and it's on my fridge (it was about rigorous curriculum). I read it often and am very inspired (DH said "Who's Tibbie Dunbar?" :lol:). This post goes up there with it. You are a wonderful writer and communicator....now back to the regularly scheduled thread...

[elegantlion]

Maybe kids are leaving christianity because they don't want to be involved with judgmental groups that see their way as the only right way and everyone else must be shunned. I think finger pointing christians do more to turn off our youth than indoctrination of other worldviews.

 

I'm not saying every christian is that way, but even in my life I've met my fair share, being shunned as an adult because I didn't do something according to "their"plan. I checked with God, he said it was okay, but the people who didn't know my heart or the whole story thought it was okay to throw me under a bus. Yeah, I want to encourage my son to be a part of group like that.:tongue_smilie:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I can't find the original "study" but I found this:

 

 

 

I wouldn't think not attending church is the same as walking away from faith. My guess is that many, even most, will return when they start families.

 

Perry, I don't personally think they will, but in my opinion it has very little to do with the public schools or media or anything else. The reason young Christians are leaving in droves is that the churches have stopped teaching the actual tenets of the religion. If you don't get exposure to ideals of the doctrines, spirituality, sacrifices, sacraments, history, rituals, tradition, etc. of a religion, and all you get is stand-up comedy (sermons) and puppet shows (Sunday school) it's kind of hard to sustain that into adulthood.

 

I think the explosion of new membership in the Catholic, Orthodox, and liturgical churches stands as evidence. Those who want Christianity will go where they can actually learn about it.

 

(This is a hot topic for me right now because it appears that one of my sons is considering becoming Catholic. I have to concede that he's been exposed to an awful lot of fluff in protestant churches and has personally witnessed the decline of several congregations. I support him wholeheartedly if he wants to convert, but I do see that if he had witnessed more substantial faith outside the family circle he wouldn't have considered it.)

 

Anyway. Rabbit trail.

 

My point is, the studies show that young people are leaving evangelical Christianity, but studies also show that they don't know what Christianity is. They are unaware of church history and Christian doctrine, but they are over-exposed and saturated with the American evangelical sub-culture. None of that can be pinned on public schools. It was the churches who laid down the cross first.

[ezrabean2005]

This is merely your interpretation and opinion...talk about fearmongering and hatred...:glare:

 

I get it...us Bible-believing/Conservative Christians aren't welcome here.

 

:confused: How is anything TD said NOT what Christianity is?

 

Jesus says, "Follow me." He says to love your neighbor as yourself. He says to give to the poor. He says that salvation is in no other name but His.

 

Isn't that the main point?

 

Poor Jesus, he makes a simple statement and so many people try to add their own disclaimers. He didn't say Love your neighbor UNLESS, he said Love your Neighbor as yourself. PERIOD.

:iagree:

Edited May 15, 2012 by ezrabean2005

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

I think the explosion of new membership in the Catholic, Orthodox, and liturgical churches stands as evidence. Those who want Christianity will go where they can actually learn about it.

 

I linked to some research earlier in the thread. The Catholic Church is losing young adults at a faster rate than other denominations, so I don't know if your suggestions solve the problem.

 

My point is, the studies show that young people are leaving evangelical Christianity, but studies also show that they don't know what Christianity is. They are unaware of church history and Christian doctrine, but they are over-exposed and saturated with the American evangelical sub-culture. None of that can be pinned on public schools. It was the churches who laid down the cross first.

 

I do think there is a lot of truth in what you are saying.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

:confused: How is anything TD said NOT what Christianity is?

 

Jesus says, "Follow me." He says to love your neighbor as yourself. He says to give to the poor. He says that salvation is in no other name but His.

 

Isn't that the main point?

 

 

 

One would think so.

[Word Nerd]

Yes. When someone proposes a radical change of perspective and action, says it's for everyone, and persuades with rapid and urgent speech that the time to act is NOW, it's very prudent to stand back for a moment and say, "What you're saying kind of makes sense to me, but first, what's it to you whether or not I agree with you? What's in it for you?"

 

Well, if you are a dominionist you need the whole nation (and eventually the world) to see things like you do and let you be in charge so Jesus can come back and set up an earthly kingdom.

 

If you're a homeschool curriculum supplier and you make a living by selling materials and speaking at conventions, you need a constant source of customers/believers to keep those opportunities to speak and to sell from year to year.

 

These homeschooling sermons are merely some mens' opinions. They are not the gospel of Jesus Christ. That he offers freely, no purchase required, and nothing for the preacher to gain other than the joy of watching a new disciple join the church of our Lord.

 

That's Christianity. Believe in Jesus, repent of your sins, His Grace reaches me, amazing grace, hallelujah.

 

And then, how to live a Christian life?

 

Vision Forum says, "Be like me, have lots of kids, dress this way, speak this way, read these books, go to this convention, fear these people, and hate these people. I guarantee you'll be the ones doing it right. Don't trust yourself to listen to anyone but me. Susan Wise Bauer is dangerous! But you can trust me. And hand over your credit card, this is gonna hurt."

 

Jesus says, "Follow me." He says to love your neighbor as yourself. (Oops, there go the fear and the hate.) He says to give to the poor. (Maybe shouldn't spend every dime enriching the rich, then, because you're scared he can't save your kids if you don't read or watch everything put out by the scaremongers.) He says that salvation is in no other name but His. That means you can't save your kids' souls by homeschooling them or by isolating them in a certain way. You can't world-proof your kids. You can hide them, scare them, shame them, and scar them, but you can't save them. That's the work of Someone Else.

 

Where's the "preach it!" smiley when I need it?

[bethben]

Personally, I don't think films like Indoctrination do much good for the general Christian public. It helps homeschool parents feel like they're doing the right thing and sweeps guilt on those who have no choice but public school (ie there are no affordable Christian schools within miles and miles of their homes). Until the church starts offering a real choice - free Christian schools, I don't think much can be done in the larger population. If you can't homeschool or can't afford a Christian school (assuming one is even close), there really is no true "school choice".

 

Beth

[UnsinkableKristen]

 

My point is, the studies show that young people are leaving evangelical Christianity, but studies also show that they don't know what Christianity is. They are unaware of church history and Christian doctrine, but they are over-exposed and saturated with the American evangelical sub-culture. None of that can be pinned on public schools. It was the churches who laid down the cross first.

 

 

Oh. My. Word.

 

This just struck me SO hard! What an incredibly expressed thought.

 

I may have to join the "Tibbie's Post On My Fridge" Club :)

[brehon]

This is merely your interpretation and opinion...talk about fearmongering and hatred...:glare:

 

I get it...us Bible-believing/Conservative Christians aren't welcome here.

 

Could you please explain -specifically- where/how what Tibbie wrote is incorrect? What is interpretation? What is opinion? Where is the fearmongering and hatred in her post - specifically? Is it because she disagrees with you? Stop the dramatics and answer the specific questions others have asked. It will lead to better understanding.

 

There are many Bible believing and conservative Christians here on the board. This belief is not only welcome, it was for a long time the dominant belief. I'm not sure if it still is or not. Just because people don't agree with you or some of your opinions and statements doesn't mean you or your beliefs are not welcome - as long as you are in turn welcoming of the varying beliefs represented here.

[Little Nyssa]

:iagree: with Tibbie.

 

Just figured out how to add a tag.:D

[brehon]

I linked to some research earlier in the thread. The Catholic Church is losing young adults at a faster rate than other denominations, so I don't know if your suggestions solve the problem.

 

Interesting. I know that the Catholic Church (the American Catholic church, at least) seems to finally be emerging from a generation (at least) of similar fluffy teaching. Dh says that our kids' CFF classes are orders of magnitude better than what he had. Of course, a lot of this is parish specific, so take that for what it's worth.

 

I do think there is a lot of truth in what you are saying.

 

I agree with you and Tibbie.

[Mrs Mungo]

Even in homeschooling, we can mess this up. My son has a strong interest in astronomy. I wasn't able to find a high level astronomy text that had a Christian view, so I bought him a secular text thinking one book isn't going to be a problem. He now argues the secular views of how the universe was formed, how old the universe is, etc. as fact because that's how they are presented. Very rarely are the problems with those theories also presented. Very rarely are other theories presented along side so they can be compared and discussed. I'm not YE. I'm not OE. I personally don't care how old the earth is because I don't think it affects my salvation. I do care that he now sees these theories as absolute fact with no thought that they might be wrong.

 

This is a problem of definition. The word theory has a specific definition in science. The "theory" that the earth is 6,000 years old is not a scientific theory because it has no evidence to back it up, only faith. Faith is enough for me to believe that God exists. But, there is no evidence for the existence of God. Therefore, creationism is not a theory in scientific terms. The books explain past and current theories, why they believe that and the evidence that backs up those beliefs. Because the Bible says so is not scientific evidence. It's just not. You and your son might be interested in poking around on http://www.answersincreation.org.

 

is it possible that he'd be influenced to leave the Bible behind, or at the very least, to cherry-pick which parts of the Bible to agree with?

 

Interpretation that some of The Bible is a beautiful allegory is not cherry-picking.

 

When PPs talked about some people calling themselves Christian but not being Christian, this is what I think they were talking about. Many people call themselves Christian but they never go to church, never read the Bible, and follow lifestyles that go against much of what the Bible speaks. I'm not a talking about who has the worse sin here. I'm talking about not even attempting to follow Biblical teachings beyond checking that box.

 

Those words were aimed at people like me. I read The Bible. I go to church. I do charitable work (sometimes throughout the church). I go to Bible study. I help teach religious classes to kids. I don't have to believe in a literal creation to do any of that.

 

 

I get it...us Bible-believing/Conservative Christians aren't welcome here.

 

This statement is verging on the absurd.

 

There are plenty of Bible-believing Christians here, in fact they are a majority. I am one of them, although I may not believe exactly the same as you. There are plenty of conservative Christians here, but they have learned to use un-Pharisee-like arguments to back up their beliefs and opinions.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[KnitWit]

My point is, the studies show that young people are leaving evangelical Christianity, but studies also show that they don't know what Christianity is. They are unaware of church history and Christian doctrine, but they are over-exposed and saturated with the American evangelical sub-culture. None of that can be pinned on public schools. It was the churches who laid down the cross first.

 

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

Thanks for your posts Tibbie, well said.

[Joanne]

I would NEVER say I am "more" christian, or think someone else "less" christian...I certainly don't have any authority on that mess. 88% of christian children come out of the PS system walking away from their faith, leaving 12% that still hold those convictions. I understand that it is possible. Is that a field that I want my children to battle alone and HOPE they are among the 12%? no

 

Could my children still walk away from their faith after I homeschool them? definitely Do I think my statistics will be more to my favor by keeping them out of the PS? absolutely

 

Then it's not a gift from God afterall, is it?

[stripe]

I don't think most people are doing pagan, or any other religious activities in schools. In fact, the biggest group trying to inject religion into schools IS evangelical Christians, and their tactics include student evangelism and school clubs. We have some pushy kids on my street who talk about their religion all the time, in really strange ways, that I think is in the same vein as this.

 

There are plenty of other statistics abou evangelical Christians including extramarital s@x, divorce, and so on, that are hard to pin on others.

[joannqn]

This is a problem of definition. The word theory has a specific definition in science. The "theory" that the earth is 6,000 years old is not a scientific theory because it has no evidence to back it up, only faith. Faith is enough for me to believe that God exists. But, there is no evidence for the existence of God. Therefore, creationism is not a theory in scientific terms. The books explain past and current theories, why they believe that and the evidence that backs up those beliefs. Because the Bible says so is not scientific evidence. It's just not. You and your son might be interested in poking around on http://www.answersincreation.org.

 

Interpretation that some of The Bible is a beautiful allegory is not cherry-picking.

 

Those words were aimed at people like me. I read The Bible. I go to church. I do charitable work (sometimes throughout the church). I go to Bible study. I help teach religious classes to kids. I don't have to believe in a literal creation to do any of that.

 

I'm actually pretty interested in Explore Evolution that is put out by Discovery Institute. I haven't poked around at Answers in Creation yet because I'm pretty unhappy with how Mr. Ham conducted himself in the past.

 

I wasn't specifically referring to Creationism. As I said, I'm neither YE or OE. I simply don't think it matters. I was thinking about other more modern issues. Our country's divorce rate. Being asked to accept homosexuality as normal, natural, and acceptable. The idea that all religions lead to the same God. The idea that believing the tenets of Christianity makes us intolerant haters.

 

My words were not aimed at people like you. When I think of box checker Christians, they don't make any attempt to alter their lifestyle to become more Christlike. One of my past co-workers, for example, invited me to church, had at least one lesbian relationship with her husband's knowledge, had an ongoing affair with another man, and used my boyfriend and I as an alibi (without our consent) for her whereabouts when she was with the other man. The lifestyle didn't jive with their stated beliefs. As a non-Christian at the time, I certainly wasn't drawn to church by their "Christian" example.

[elegantlion]

I'm actually pretty interested in Explore Evolution that is put out by Discovery Institute. I haven't poked around at Answers in Creation yet because I'm pretty unhappy with how Mr. Ham conducted himself in the past.

 

 

Just to clarify Answers in Creation is not Ken Ham's deal. That is Answers in Genesis.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I'm actually pretty interested in Explore Evolution that is put out by Discovery Institute. I haven't poked around at Answers in Creation yet because I'm pretty unhappy with how Mr. Ham conducted himself in the past.

 

Answers in Creation is in no way, shape, or form affiliated with Mr. Ham. He is with Answers in Genesis.

[joannqn]

Just to clarify Answers in Creation is not Ken Ham's deal. That is Answers in Genesis.

 

Answers in Creation is in no way, shape, or form affiliated with Mr. Ham. He is with Answers in Genesis.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I googled it to be sure, but I think google did it's nice autocorrect thing and tried finding the closest thing.

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by curlylocks

The thing is: there is NO neutral. You are either for Christ or against Him.

 

I didn't say it...Jesus did.

 

This, and its sister:

 

"Either Jesus is God or he was a total lunatic" are awful evangelistic tools. Not to mention they are statements of poor logic.

 

Those of us that have a non-traditional-Christian faith typically have a much more rich, in depth, nuanced, and sophisticated understanding of God and Jesus. To reduce it to "there is no neutral, either for or against" is to actually strip God of some of his better qualities.

 

Shame, that.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Thanks for the clarification. I googled it to be sure, but I think google did it's nice autocorrect thing and tried finding the closest thing.

 

Google and the autocorrect. Good times!