CC: severing ties with mother

[love2read]

My mother went one step too far last month. I don't want to dwell on the details, but will say that she is selfish, manipulative and has always treated me and my children unfairly in very obvious ways. I'm in my 50s, she in her early 80s and I've looked the other way my entire life being the loving daughter, caring for her in times of illness, traveling to help her with yard work, cleaning the attic, etc. when my siblings were too busy. Basically I've acted like things were ok because when I spoke with her about the problems she denied them. Last month everyone agreed to come to my house for a get together around Easter, but then changed her mind and talked two of my siblings into go to her house instead of mine. Someone was going to drive her to my house and she is healthy and active. I know, it sounds so petty, but this was the first grathering I've planned in years because she always does this.

 

I just can't talk to her. Somehow, that part of me that could pretend can't anymore. I can't pretend to care when I talk to her on the phone, email or in person (she lives 2 hours away.) She doesn't see a problem despite her sisters and my siblings seeing it and talking to her about it. She's just really, really selfish and immature.

 

I realize I can't completely severe ties with her, but how can I deal with her now? She called a few times to talk, but I didn't pick up and the kids didn't want to talk to her either. She emailed a "nice weather" note and I wrote back that I jneeded some space because of the incident. She seemingly has accepted it (thank God) and I haven't heard from her in two weeks. I would be happy if things could go on like this forever, but I know she will try to connect again. My siblings are no help because they are on the receiving end of things and don't want to lose that. (I've never been able to figure out what I did wrong, but believe it started at birth since I was a very sick baby. My aunt remembers her slamming my cradle against the wall to get me to stop crying. It's like she never matured emotionally after the age of 9 or 10.)

 

Have any of you been in this situation? Any advice?

[TranquilMind]

My mother went one step too far last month. I don't want to dwell on the details, but will say that she is selfish, manipulative and has always treated me and my children unfairly in very obvious ways. I'm in my 50s, she in her early 80s and I've looked the other way my entire life being the loving daughter, caring for her in times of illness, traveling to help her with yard work, cleaning the attic, etc. when my siblings were too busy. Basically I've acted like things were ok because when I spoke with her about the problems she denied them. Last month everyone agreed to come to my house for a get together around Easter, but then changed her mind and talked two of my siblings into go to her house instead of mine. Someone was going to drive her to my house and she is healthy and active. I know, it sounds so petty, but this was the first grathering I've planned in years because she always does this.

 

I just can't talk to her. Somehow, that part of me that could pretend can't anymore. I can't pretend to care when I talk to her on the phone, email or in person (she lives 2 hours away.) She doesn't see a problem despite her sisters and my siblings seeing it and talking to her about it. She's just really, really selfish and immature.

 

I realize I can't completely severe ties with her, but how can I deal with her now? She called a few times to talk, but I didn't pick up and the kids didn't want to talk to her either. She emailed a "nice weather" note and I wrote back that I jneeded some space because of the incident. She seemingly has accepted it (thank God) and I haven't heard from her in two weeks. I would be happy if things could go on like this forever, but I know she will try to connect again. My siblings are no help because they are on the receiving end of things and don't want to lose that. (I've never been able to figure out what I did wrong, but believe it started at birth since I was a very sick baby. My aunt remembers her slamming my cradle against the wall to get me to stop crying. It's like she never matured emotionally after the age of 9 or 10.)

 

Have any of you been in this situation? Any advice?

I'm sorry. She is in her 80's though....it won't be forever that she will be attempting to make contact with you.

 

I'd try to be the bigger person, at least on occasion. You won't be sorry you were kind after she is gone (orphan 8 years here).

[Lara in Colo]

I have a mother like this.

You have to be strong.

Perhaps read a book about personality disorders.

You can tell her you are hurt, and keep telling her. I suggest some boundaries and some distance. You will see that you can live without her and so will she--then she might change, or not, but you will have changed for the better.

 

I don't know the whole story so I cannot give too much specific advice, but there are others here who have/are going through this as well.

 

I know your pain and your feelings of guilt mixed with anger and disapointment, and guilt and unfairness and anger at yourself for allowing her to do this time after time and guilt for standing up for yourself just this one time but yet....not.

 

Been there.

[kalanamak]

I PM'd you.

 

:grouphug:

[besroma]

:grouphug: I understand, and I am sorry.

 

I would take some time to heal the wound, then try to stay in the relationship. She is quite old.

[amy g.]

I have this mother too, and I did completely sever ties with her almost 15 years ago.

 

I did not want her poisoning my marriage and my relationships with my children.

 

I have been able to keep my relationship with my siblings. Neither of them have ever married or had children, mainly because she always insisted that we ruined her life. They feel like they can have a superficial relationship with her because they don't have children to protect.

 

I've told them that I am not caring for her in her old age. I don't expect them to share any thing she has with me either, but they probably will anyway.

 

It has been a difficult decision to defend to outsiders, but it set me free, free, free, and I'm never going back to her chaos and insanity again.

[Mommy22alyns]

:grouphug: I've had to sever ties with my mother too - actually both parents within a span of 2 years. :confused:

[love2read]

Thanks. Yes, she is old and frankly if she was older and conversation was out of the question it wouldn't be a problem. We even had a room converted to a bedroom/living room for her so she could move here when she can't live alone so I'm not carry a grudge, more like a wound. This isn't a matter of my wanting to punish her, it's just that I have nothing to say to her and frankly am so wounded (yes, talked to a therapist about this a few years back) that I just have nothing to say and can't even make small talk.

kalan, the pm didn't come through.

[LaxMom]

You have done nothing wrong. You have simply been designated the scapegoat. :grouphug:

 

I highly recommend "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?" link and "When You and Your Mother Can't Be Friends" link.

 

I cut off contact with my mother for what many people would see as "petty" but is, in fact, a pattern of behavior that devalues and degrades me as a person, going on as far back as I can remember (early childhood). I was clear about boundaries, clear about my feelings, and clear about the consequences of ongoing, specific behaviors. I gave multiple "second chances". I have no regrets.

 

You need to use your space to reflect on what you have, what you want, and what you think will be the best course of action for you and you family. Don't let anyone make that decision for you or guilt you into anything.

 

I'm so sorry. :grouphug:

[aggieamy]

I have this mother too, and I did completely sever ties with her almost 15 years ago.

 

I did not want her poisoning my marriage and my relationships with my children.

 

I have been able to keep my relationship with my siblings. Neither of them have ever married or had children, mainly because she always insisted that we ruined her life. They feel like they can have a superficial relationship with her because they don't have children to protect.

 

I've told them that I am not caring for her in her old age. I don't expect them to share any thing she has with me either, but they probably will anyway.

 

It has been a difficult decision to defend to outsiders, but it set me free, free, free, and I'm never going back to her chaos and insanity again.

 

:iagree:

 

When my grandmother died I was able to completely sever ties with my mother. On the rare occasion that DH and talk about her I don't even call her "mom", I call her by her first name because she's not a mom. She's got some serious problems which I could overlook because there are some crazy people in my family but she's also mean and vindictive. The last straw was being mean to my kid. I've blocked her number from my phone and she doesn't have my email address. I want nothing to do with her. It is tough because my siblings feel bad for her. Meh. I'm over feeling bad. I'm just through with her and everything about her and it feels GREAT!

[treestarfae]

There's a book called A Child Called It. It's about a mother who singled out one child to abuse amongst her children. I don't think it's a maturity issue just an abusive one. I know plenty of 9-10 year old kids who would treat babies better than that. There's a serious lack of compassion from your mother and siblings if noone is standing up for you. It's petty for them to only care about themselves. Just realizing treating people that way is wrong, means you're way better off than they'll ever be. The next step is to take care of yourself because you can't depend on them! I hope you have found loving people now.

[Little Nyssa]

To me, severing ties is not quite the same thing as coming to accept that a more distant relationship would be best for now.

[gardenmom5]

:grouphug:

 

read up on mother's with narcisstic personality disorder. one of the first things you will learn is: you did NOT "do" anything - it's all tied into their games designed simply to feed their own ego.

 

http://daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/ is a pretty informative lay site that was very helpful.

http://sites.google.com/site/harpyschild/ I LOVE the name :lol:- harpys child. granted it read as a vent fest, but it clicked some things into place for me.

 

then get and read:

Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life

 

firm boundaries are your friend.

 

since she's in her 80's, you won't have to do this for another 15 years, but it will help you immensley.

 

good luck

[Hoggirl]

:grouphug: I am so sorry for the OP and others who have had to sever ties with their mothers.

 

I have absolutely no experience with this at all, but I might try to see her once or twice a year if you can stand it. Maybe at Christmas and one other time. Just set some boundaries and stick to them? Maybe that just isn't workable.

 

:grouphug:, again.

[love2read]

Your responses have changed my life. I found my answer, she has

narcisstic personality disorder

I knew about this disorder, but never thought about the symptoms in terms of my mother, probably because she is normal around some people and I thought I was the problem. I'm not. I cried when I saw the list of things they do to some of their scapegoat daughters because that was me. Gaslighting! Who knew!!! I've spent my whole life thinking I was nuts. I was up until 3am reading this site and checking out all of the books and ideas you kind ladies have suggested. Thank you so much. I've put them on reserve at the library and feel like I can start to heal.

Edited April 27, 2012 by love2read

[gardenmom5]

Your responses have changed my life. I found my answer, she has

narcisstic personality disorder

I knew about this disorder, but never thought about the symptoms in terms of my mother, probably because she is normal around some people and I thought I was the problem. I'm not. I cried when I saw the list of things they do to some of their scapegoat daughters because that was me. Gaslighting! Who knew!!! I've spent my whole life thinking I was nuts. I was up until 3am reading this site and checking out all of the books and ideas you kind ladies have suggested. Thank you so much. I've put them on reserve at the library and feel like I can start to heal.

 

Congratulations, you've taken a big first step.

 

believe it or not - from what I've read in my readings, the scapegoat is most likely to see something is wrong and escape. my grandmother had borderline pd (I didn't realize this until recently - 18 years after she died. It was still healing.) , which is very similar, except there is a big fear of abandonment. my mother had the misfortune of being an only child and so grandmother did it to my siblings and I as well.

 

because of my grandmother's age I was able to easily set boundaries. (besides, I was the scapegoat) I spoke to her via phone ONE day la week, for *15* minutes as long as she was civil. They rarely made it to 10 minutes. But then her health started failing and she started slipping into dementia (the spaced out kind) and she couldn't play games at all. I had no desire to visit her in the nursing home at. all.

 

eta: our shortest phone call was three minutes (and only because I had a corded phone and had to walk across the room to hang it up.)

Edited April 27, 2012 by gardenmom5

[AuntieM]

So, a little hijack....

 

Does the scapegoat become the scapegoat when the disordered person realizes that this is the most likely one to put two and two together and call him/her on the bad behavior?

 

Or is there a pattern based on, say, birth order, or something else?

[Denisemomof4]

So, a little hijack....

 

Does the scapegoat become the scapegoat when the disordered person realizes that this is the most likely one to put two and two together and call him/her on the bad behavior?

 

Or is there a pattern based on, say, birth order, or something else?

 

I am curious about the stories about having a scapegoat. I was most definitely that but neither of my parents had NPD. My brother and sister, though, were difficult and needy and I can see how the siblings and my parents needed each other to function in their dysfunction, while it drove me insane.

[Zebra]

:grouphug:

[gardenmom5]

So, a little hijack....

 

Does the scapegoat become the scapegoat when the disordered person realizes that this is the most likely one to put two and two together and call him/her on the bad behavior?

 

Or is there a pattern based on, say, birth order, or something else?

 

I've no idea about how they are chosen in general. I do know why in my own family.

My sister is #1 - and the "victim". first grandchild. she was a premie, so it started early. (and perversely enough, my grandmother's favorte. talk about sick and twisted . . . I eventually realized all my issues with my sister could be directly traced to my grandmother's games. they REALLY messed her head up.)

My brother #2 was the "golden child". He's also NPD. (oh, and the boy part I can understand, my grandmother was one of TEN girls. NO boys. on a farm in the midwest. in the early 1900's. they grew up hearing they should have been boys.)

I'm the youngest. I had several marks against me. My parents moved a half hour away before I was born so I didn't spend a ton of time with her as a young child. I adored my father. (saying my grandmother loathed him is an understatement.), and (thank you orson scott card and ender's game) I am a "third". I was surpurfluous. an unwanted extra.

 

I was really unaware of any of this until I was 13. (I was aware I'd get left out of things my siblings had.) before that, I just went along, did as I was told, thought it was all normal, etc. but then . . . .my eyes started to be opened and I've been understanding more and more all the time.

 

eta: my grandmother was borderline as opposed to narcisstic. she had a tremendous fear of abandonment and loved to wallow in worry. (she even referred to her mother as mommy when she was 80 years old. what is up with that?)

 

regarding victim status - the NPD/BPD person designates a "victim" for them to rescue.

Edited April 27, 2012 by gardenmom5

[love2read]

I've been thinking about just that thing-how does the scapegoat became the scapegoat or the favored child that role. These roles start so young that it's hard to determine when we are that person, but thinking about which of my children my mother turned into scapegoats I can see that they are the ones that are the most tenderhearted. She highly favored my children who are naturally aloof, I believe because that was the only way she could pull them in. The tenderhearted ones were already lapping at her feet, as was I, and ready to jump through her hoops to please.

[TranquilMind]

Your responses have changed my life. I found my answer, she has

narcisstic personality disorder

I knew about this disorder, but never thought about the symptoms in terms of my mother, probably because she is normal around some people and I thought I was the problem. I'm not. I cried when I saw the list of things they do to some of their scapegoat daughters because that was me. Gaslighting! Who knew!!! I've spent my whole life thinking I was nuts. I was up until 3am reading this site and checking out all of the books and ideas you kind ladies have suggested. Thank you so much. I've put them on reserve at the library and feel like I can start to heal.

IF she did it to you, it was done to her. These things don't happen in a vacuum.

 

Try to forgive, for your own sake, if not hers.

 

I have some deceased relatives (not my Mom, who was great) who were, well, unkind to me. But I've forgiven and moved on. Otherwise it just poisons you and your family.

 

I wish you the best.

[Mommy22alyns]

You have done nothing wrong. You have simply been designated the scapegoat. :grouphug:

 

I highly recommend "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?" link and "When You and Your Mother Can't Be Friends" link.

 

I cut off contact with my mother for what many people would see as "petty" but is, in fact, a pattern of behavior that devalues and degrades me as a person, going on as far back as I can remember (early childhood). I was clear about boundaries, clear about my feelings, and clear about the consequences of ongoing, specific behaviors. I gave multiple "second chances". I have no regrets.

 

You need to use your space to reflect on what you have, what you want, and what you think will be the best course of action for you and you family. Don't let anyone make that decision for you or guilt you into anything.

 

I'm so sorry. :grouphug:

 

:grouphug:

 

read up on mother's with narcisstic personality disorder. one of the first things you will learn is: you did NOT "do" anything - it's all tied into their games designed simply to feed their own ego.

 

http://daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/ is a pretty informative lay site that was very helpful.

http://sites.google.com/site/harpyschild/ I LOVE the name :lol:- harpys child. granted it read as a vent fest, but it clicked some things into place for me.

 

then get and read:

Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life

 

firm boundaries are your friend.

 

since she's in her 80's, you won't have to do this for another 15 years, but it will help you immensley.

 

good luck

 

Wow, there's a lot in there that rings true for me too. Especially the part about the scapegoat and golden child. Gee, guess who's the scapegoat? My sister has never been able to do any wrong, it's always been my fault. And yes, for me, I was the scapegoat because I wouldn't let her control every aspect of my life. I fought back. My sister, the golden child, just lets my mom control her. She's almost 25, still lives with my mom, and signs her paycheck over to mom so mom can dole out what H needs.

[pdalley]

I've been thinking about just that thing-how does the scapegoat became the scapegoat or the favored child that role. These roles start so young that it's hard to determine when we are that person, but thinking about which of my children my mother turned into scapegoats I can see that they are the ones that are the most tenderhearted. She highly favored my children who are naturally aloof, I believe because that was the only way she could pull them in. The tenderhearted ones were already lapping at her feet, as was I, and ready to jump through her hoops to please.

 

On the case of my brother and I it was simple - she was pretty much all we had. My Dad had split and she moved away from our hometown and my grandmother. She alternated between the two of us - one the scapegoat, the other the perfect child - depending on how much she could manipulate us. When I was a teen I showed an interest in horses and she went whole hog into that and I became the golden child as long as I did what she wanted. But I let her bully me out of doing things I wanted to do - taking home ec, enlisting out of high school, getting a part time job in high school. I wish I had realized what was going on sooner and put the distance between us but I doubt I could have left my brother alone with her.

 

As it is she died in Dec of breast cancer. The lump was huge before she told anyone about it and it had spread to several other parts. She had time to get her affairs in order but refused to do so. She played the martyr to the hilt - trying to play my brother and I against each other - telling the Doctor one thing and then crying for us to tell the Doctor something else. We are knee deep in trying to fix the mess she left her affairs in. She's the gift that keeps on giving. Instead of being sad she's gone I'm relieved. I no longer hear someone shouting at me continually that I'm going to screw something up.

 

I only hope and pray my brother can break free of her voice still in his head and go on to live life. If not for my grandmother I doubt either of us would have made it. It is her loss that is almost too much to bear. She was my real mother.

 

:grouphug:

[justamouse]

:grouphug:

[gardenmom5]

IF she did it to you, it was done to her. These things don't happen in a vacuum.

 

Try to forgive, for your own sake, if not hers.

 

I have some deceased relatives (not my Mom, who was great) who were, well, unkind to me. But I've forgiven and moved on. Otherwise it just poisons you and your family.

 

I wish you the best.

 

dealing with a NPD mother is not remotely the same as having family members who are "Just unkind". (I have a mil who is nuts, and makes everyone around her nuts. she is NOT NPD. not remotely). Before a person can even start thinking about forgiveness, they must recognize what is happening so they can erect the boundaries required to protect themselves. what NPD mother's engage in is emotional and psychological abuse.

 

would you suggest someone who has been physically abused just forgive and move on without doing anything about it?

 

eta: if you excuse behavior because it was "done to them", when does someone become responsible for their own behavior?

Edited April 27, 2012 by gardenmom5

[JVA]

:grouphug:

 

read up on mother's with narcisstic personality disorder. one of the first things you will learn is: you did NOT "do" anything - it's all tied into their games designed simply to feed their own ego.

 

http://daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/ is a pretty informative lay site that was very helpful.

http://sites.google.com/site/harpyschild/ I LOVE the name :lol:- harpys child. granted it read as a vent fest, but it clicked some things into place for me.

 

then get and read:

Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life

 

firm boundaries are your friend.

 

since she's in her 80's, you won't have to do this for another 15 years, but it will help you immensley.

 

good luck

 

:iagree::iagree: This is EXACTLY what I was going to say. I hope things will get better for you....putting up the boundaries is actually FREEING. Blessings to you!

[gardenmom5]

My sister, the golden child, just lets my mom control her. She's almost 25, still lives with my mom, and signs her paycheck over to mom so mom can dole out what H needs.

:grouphug: After you are stable and "recovered", you can do what you can to help your sister. the golden child actually has a harder time breaking free. It's a big deal for them to reject the manipulation that on the surface appears to raise them, but in reality enslaves them. It's easier for the scapegoat to get away. when the NPD mothers dies, those that are still attached to the apron are left to drift, with no clue how to function. You might want to encourage your sister to learn about how to handle money as a starter. . . . (or find a job away from your hometown or her own apartment with friends, etc.)

 

I only hope and pray my brother can break free of her voice still in his head and go on to live life. If not for my grandmother I doubt either of us would have made it. It is her loss that is almost too much to bear. She was my real mother.

 

:grouphug:

:grouphug:

 

Gosh, that DONM site was amazing--I felt like I was a fly on the wall of my dh's upbringing.

:grouphug:

[LaxMom]

So, a little hijack....

 

Does the scapegoat become the scapegoat when the disordered person realizes that this is the most likely one to put two and two together and call him/her on the bad behavior?

 

Or is there a pattern based on, say, birth order, or something else?

It's an interesting question, and not one that I think has a definitive answer.

 

I'm an only. I'm a girl and, thus, was destined to be my mother's mini-me. Except we are opposites in every way, and I developed a taste for my own opinions. Around 4. (which is when the problems of scapegoats normally start, right around school age: 4-7) I'm primarily a scapegoat, though any success I have gives her bragging rights. (and there's a whole lot of self-sabotage over the years to keep her from having that ability)

 

My year-older cousin is the Golden Child, for no other reason, I suspect, than being my mother's namesake. (My mother has no idea that while in Jewish tradition naming a child after a deceased loved one is an honor, naming one after a living relative is a slap in the face.) She is also the child of my mother's oldest sister, and there's a whole lot of psychology there.

 

When my grandmother was at the end of her life, I broke my no-contact, moved into my mother's home, and helped my aunt (who had also walked out of her life and moved in) care for her. My cousin flew in for a weekend, complained about her back aching, visited and recreated, and left. After my grandmother passed away, my mother called me for something ("blah, blah, me, me, me, blah, me, blah") and, rather viciously told me how my aunt was so "mean" in her comments about my cousin coming and being basically another person to care for. As an afterthought, she added, "of course (aunt) only had the nicest things to say about YOU!" in a voice dripping contempt, as if my aunt's appreciation was completely undeserved. (Of course she appreciated it. She's a nurse. I worked as a CNA in highschool, and as a paramedic then and after. She didn't have to cajole and teach me while I feigned incompetence! I could and did help, which is what I was there to do. She got a break! A helper!) This is just an example, but that comparison has been made my whole life: no matter what my cousin (whom I adore, by the way) did or did not do, it was the best or completely justified, by virtue of being her choice. Anything I chose to do was ignored, belittled, and what I chose not to was an inexplicable missed opportunity, most likely due to laziness.

 

My eldest daughter was a Golden Child for my mother. I have no doubt that she pretended my daughter was hers before she was old enough to contradict her. My second daughter was also being groomed to be a GC, before I cut off contact again. I suspect part of that dynamic is nothing more than part of further scapegoating me, by undermining me and "taking what is mine" for herself.

 

My boys aren't even a blip on her radar. She really couldn't care less.

 

So, yeah, there is some psychology on the making of a scapegoat. Books on the subject tell me scapegoats are usually the strongest member of a family, whether that is the cause or the effect (and, in true DoNM fashion, I wonder if the authors just say that to make us feel better). Birth order may have something to do with it, as well as gender, but there are other factors at play as well, and are the predominant ones when you're an only.

 

Wow. That was a really long not-answer-to-the-question. Sorry.

 

I've been thinking about just that thing-how does the scapegoat became the scapegoat or the favored child that role. These roles start so young that it's hard to determine when we are that person, but thinking about which of my children my mother turned into scapegoats I can see that they are the ones that are the most tenderhearted. She highly favored my children who are naturally aloof, I believe because that was the only way she could pull them in. The tenderhearted ones were already lapping at her feet, as was I, and ready to jump through her hoops to please.

I'd guess that she sees their willingness to please as some kind of weakness she loathes in herself, so she rejects them in favor of the more "aloof" personalities that she wants to be the "real" reflection of her.

Edited April 28, 2012 by MyCrazyHouse

[TranquilMind]

gardenmom5: dealing with a NPD mother is not remotely the same as having family members who are "Just unkind".

Well, this is my euphemism for other things, which apparently did not come across. But bitterness does no good for anyone so I intentionally choose not to live there.

 

(I have a mil who is nuts, and makes everyone around her nuts. she is NOT NPD. not remotely). Before a person can even start thinking about forgiveness, they must recognize what is happening so they can erect the boundaries required to protect themselves. what NPD mother's engage in is emotional and psychological abuse.

 

No. Forgiveness is an act of the will. You might not feel it when you forgive, but when you forgive long enough, one day it becomes true and YOU are free - even if the other person isn't. That's important to me.

 

would you suggest someone who has been physically abused just forgive and move on without doing anything about it?

 

Define "doing something about it". Address it? File charges, if appropriate (and not 25 years ago, when the perp is dead)? Not be in the physical presence of someone who is physically abusive? Sure. But forgive so that you can move on....certainly. The only alternative is bitterness and hatred.

 

eta: if you excuse behavior because it was "done to them", when does someone become responsible for their own behavior?

 

Not an excuse. An explanation, that helps one to see more dispassionately and maybe feel some empathy. That's all. Hurt people hurt people. They are responsible, sure, but they were "rewired", in a sense, to be this way, and they started with a strike against them in this area. It is just how it helps me to think of these things.

 

I'm only expressing that forgiving is better than living in bitterness and hatred for the person who does it.

[Maverick_Mom]

Seconding the recommendation of When You and Your Mother Can't Be Friends, by Victoria Secunda. It may be out of print now, but it is well worth finding used. The author describes the different kinds of unpleasable mothers, and then she describes the roles that their daughters may play in their relationships with their mothers.

 

I found that I had actually played several roles in the course of my life in my interaction with my mother. I had been the Cypher; the Angel; the Superachiever; and finally the Defector.

 

Secunda says that sometimes mothers choose certain children as their targets for abuse because they sense that there is something resistant in those children -- so they (the mothers) feel challenged to "break" them. I don't know about that; it may be true for others, but it wasn't for me. I think that when I was the Cypher, my mother knew I was an easy target, and she took full and frequent advantage of that. When I was the Good Girl and the Superachiever, she knew how desperate I was to stay in her good graces (which of course never lasted) and to make her proud of me; that gave her an element of power over me. And when I became the Defector, she was threatened by her loss of control over me. (Secunda calls this control the "sphere of influence.") It never really had anything to do with me -- it was all about her and her power, and I just happened to be the focal point of her pathological need for control. (And lest anyone think that this is just a description of your garden-variety control freak, it's way worse than that. People like this are merciless in their strategies for minimizing you so that they CAN control you.)

 

I guess it should have made me glad to know that, at some level, it wasn't personal -- if it hadn't been me, she'd have found someone else to abuse. But it didn't make me feel any better -- to her, I had no value as a person. In fact, no one had (has) any value to her on their own merits -- she treated people like chess pawns in some sad quest to make herself feel powerful and significant. I wish I could say I feel sorry for her. I don't. I also don't hate her. After all these years, I just feel empty and tired, and I feel this huge void in my heart where a mother should have been.

 

I don't talk about this much (being "divorced" from your mother is an unpopular and misunderstood topic), but I appreciate the opportunity to share here.

 

BTW, Secunda's book is not a manual on how to cut off ties with your mother. It actually helps you decide which of three scenarios is best for you: reconciliation/restoration of the relationship, limited contact with boundaries, or a permanent break.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Maverick_Mom

[LaxMom]

I am a big proponent of forgiveness. Narcissists to not ask for pardon, though. They simply look for a new way to control or destroy. My mother's behavior is outrageous, and I am outraged by it. She lives in a world of her own making, which is furnished with cardboard cutouts (the rest of us), and she lashes out at the cardboard cutouts when they fail to do exactly as she dictates.

 

There is nothing to forgive. She has never, ever done anything wrong. Cardboard cutouts have no feelings, no desires, no self-determination. I exist only on the same level as a chotchke on a shelf and, not serving her current aesthetic, will get tossed as quickly.

 

There is a great analogy in the ebook "What Makes Narcissists Tick": we know tigers are dangerous, wild creatures. We don't hate tigers for being what they are. (And, I would add, nor do we "forgive" them for being dangerous predators) We simply don't get in the cage with them.

 

Some people choose to learn to "safely" (relatively speaking) interact with the tiger. Most don't. It's not punitive, it's self-preservation.

Edited April 28, 2012 by MyCrazyHouse

[pdalley]

 

 

Not an excuse. An explanation, that helps one to see more dispassionately and maybe feel some empathy. That's all. Hurt people hurt people. They are responsible, sure, but they were "rewired", in a sense, to be this way, and they started with a strike against them in this area. It is just how it helps me to think of these things.

 

I'm only expressing that forgiving is better than living in bitterness and hatred for the person who does it.

 

 

No, not all hurt people hurt people. Not all abusers go and abuse others. At some point there is a choice made. I am sorry she was the way she was. But I didn't do it. And I cannot find anything in her life that would have caused her to be the way she was.

 

And forgiveness is a destination that comes in time. It doesn't happen overnight. When the damage that has been done over so many years is left for you to undo - not only for yourself but the damage done to your sibling - then it's a signpost way down the road.

 

The best thing about all this is that I take whatever my mother did as a parent and do the exact opposite.

[LaxMom]

Seconding the recommendation of When You and Your Mother Can't Be Friends, by Victoria Secunda. It may be out of print now, but it is well worth finding used. The author describes the different kinds of unpleasable mothers, and then she describes the roles that their daughters may play in their relationships with their mothers.

 

I found that I had actually played several roles in the course of my life in my interaction with my mother. I had been the Cypher; the Angel; the Superachiever; and finally the Defector.

 

Secunda says that sometimes mothers choose certain children as their targets for abuse because they sense that there is something resistant in those children -- so they (the mothers) feel challenged to "break" them. I don't know about that; it may be true for others, but it wasn't for me. I think that when I was the Cypher, my mother knew I was an easy target, and she took full and frequent advantage of that. When I was the Good Girl and the Superachiever, she knew how desperate I was to stay in her good graces (which of course never lasted) and to make her proud of me; that gave her an element of power over me. And when I became the Defector, she was threatened by her loss of control over me. (Secunda calls this control the "sphere of influence.") It never really had anything to do with me -- it was all about her and her power, and I just happened to be the focal point of her pathological need for control. (And lest anyone think that this is just a description of your garden-variety control freak, it's way worse than that. People like this are merciless in their strategies for minimizing you so that they CAN control you.)

 

I guess it should have made me glad to know that, at some level, it wasn't personal -- if it hadn't been me, she'd have found someone else to abuse. But it didn't make me feel any better -- to her, I had no value as a person. In fact, no one had (has) any value to her on their own merits -- she treated people like chess pawns in some sad quest to make herself feel powerful and significant. I wish I could say I feel sorry for her. I don't. I also don't hate her. After all these years, I just feel empty and tired, and I feel this huge void in my heart where a mother should have been.

 

I don't talk about this much (being "divorced" from your mother is an unpopular and misunderstood topic), but I appreciate the opportunity to share here.

 

BTW, Secunda's book is not a manual on how to cut off ties with your mother. It actually helps you decide which of three scenarios is best for you: reconciliation/restoration of the relationship, limited contact with boundaries, or a permanent break.

I could have written that. (in fact, I think I mostly have ;-) )

 

I've had the very unexpected experience, though, of having a lot of support from friends, coworkers, etc, when the topic comes up and I reveal that I am not in contact with my mother. Maybe some of them are making nice noises because they don't know what to say but I've not had anyone react negatively. It's been a little surreal.

[gardenmom5]

I'm only expressing that forgiving is better than living in bitterness and hatred for the person who does it.

 

you're coming across as someone who has no idea what is really going on because you've "dealt with people who weren't nice". nor an understanding of the utter pscyhological damage NPD/BPD mothers inflict. this is NOT about bitterness, but about recovery. It is about recognition so you can protect children from the damage. It's understanding how to erect appropriate boundaries so the mind games stop. it is about understanding your perceptions are real and this stuff really is wrong and it's okay to object. Not doing those things is the same as bailing water without plugging the leak.

 

NPD/BPDers make you think YOU are crazy and you honestly don't know what is what anymore. they turn everything upside down and you question your own sanity. go read up on gaslighting. (or go watch gaslight with ingrid bergman. that's where the term comes from and psychologists do use it.) understanding what is happening is part of recovering.

 

it wasn't until I finally understood HER and that she was BPD that I could finally let the hurt go. That doesn't mean I've forgotten.

 

eta: I was psychologically abused by this woman - I have NEVER done anything to my own children. (1dd has heard lots, and often tells me how glad she is I'm her mother. we have a great relationship - I'm the first generation to have that relationship - I didn't "learn" it from anyone.) even my mother was nothing like her mother. all of my children feel loved and cherished for who they are and they love each other (four of them are adults) - I was raised to compete to the death for aprobation and my siblings and I are all barely speaking with each other.

Edited April 28, 2012 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

I could have written that. (in fact, I think I mostly have ;-) )

 

I've had the very unexpected experience, though, of having a lot of support from friends, coworkers, etc, when the topic comes up and I reveal that I am not in contact with my mother. Maybe some of them are making nice noises because they don't know what to say but I've not had anyone react negatively. It's been a little surreal.

 

Lucky you. I really am glad for your sake that has been the case for you, but I don't think it's typical.

 

we do what we have to do.

[amy g.]

I don't think it is typical either.

 

So many people who have never experienced an emotionally abusive mother feel qualified to comment on whether it was right or wrong to divorce mine.

 

I've given up expecting anyone to understand. The reality of our childhood is too far from anything they can imagine.

[OnTheBrink]

Your responses have changed my life. I found my answer, she has

narcisstic personality disorder

I knew about this disorder, but never thought about the symptoms in terms of my mother, probably because she is normal around some people and I thought I was the problem. I'm not. I cried when I saw the list of things they do to some of their scapegoat daughters because that was me. Gaslighting! Who knew!!! I've spent my whole life thinking I was nuts. I was up until 3am reading this site and checking out all of the books and ideas you kind ladies have suggested. Thank you so much. I've put them on reserve at the library and feel like I can start to heal.

 

I had the same reaction when I read that site. :grouphug:

 

I am a big proponent of forgiveness. Narcissists to not ask for pardon, though. They simply look for a new way to control or destroy. My mother's behavior is outrageous, and I am outraged by it. She lives in a world of her own making, which is furnished with cardboard cutouts (the rest of us), and she lashes out at the cardboard cutouts when they fail to do exactly as she dictates.

 

There is nothing to forgive. She has never, ever done anything wrong. Cardboard cutouts have no feelings, no desires, no self-determination. I exist only on the same level as a chotchke on a shelf and, not serving her current aesthetic, will get tossed as quickly.

 

There is a great analogy in the ebook "What Makes Narcissists Tick": we know tigers are dangerous, wild creatures. We don't hate tigers for being what they are. (And, I would add, nor do we "forgive" them for being dangerous predators) We simply don't get in the cage with them.

 

Some people choose to learn to "safely" (relatively speaking) interact with the tiger. Most don't. It's not punitive, it's self-preservation.

 

Best post in this thread. :iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

you're coming across as someone who has no idea what is really going on because you've "dealt with people who weren't nice". nor an understanding of the utter pscyhological damage NPD/BPD mothers inflict. this is NOT about bitterness, but about recovery. It is about recognition so you can protect children from the damage. It's understanding how to erect appropriate boundaries so the mind games stop. it is about understanding your perceptions are real and this stuff really is wrong and it's okay to object. Not doing those things is the same as bailing water without plugging the leak.

 

NPD/BPDers make you think YOU are crazy and you honestly don't know what is what anymore. they turn everything upside down and you question your own sanity. go read up on gaslighting. (or go watch gaslight with ingrid bergman. that's where the term comes from and psychologists do use it.) understanding what is happening is part of recovering.

 

it wasn't until I finally understood HER and that she was BPD that I could finally let the hurt go. That doesn't mean I've forgotten.

 

eta: I was psychologically abused by this woman - I have NEVER done anything to my own children. (1dd has heard lots, and often tells me how glad she is I'm her mother. we have a great relationship - I'm the first generation to have that relationship - I didn't "learn" it from anyone.) even my mother was nothing like her mother. all of my children feel loved and cherished for who they are and they love each other (four of them are adults) - I was raised to compete to the death for aprobation and my siblings and I are all barely speaking with each other.

 

And, :iagree::iagree::iagree: with this, too.

 

I cut ties with my mother, for the second time in my life, 2.5 years ago. In short, she is poison. And, I refuse to allow her venom in my life, or to affect my dc's lives. I'm not bitter; I'm just not so stupid as to believe she is anything but what she is. And, she was raised by a narcissist. She chose to become her mother. I chose NOT to become mine.

[LaxMom]

Lucky you. I really am glad for your sake that has been the case for you, but I don't think it's typical.

 

we do what we have to do.

 

I don't think it is typical either.

 

So many people who have never experienced an emotionally abusive mother feel qualified to comment on whether it was right or wrong to divorce mine.

 

I've given up expecting anyone to understand. The reality of our childhood is too far from anything they can imagine.

 

:grouphug: No, I don't think it's typical, either.

 

Ironically, my husband has been the only person in the past few years who pulled out the "but she's your mother" argument. And he knows how toxic she is. That ended when I asked him whether he would encourage anyone to overlook such a pattern from a friend or other relative. He wouldn't.

 

I do think it's hard for people to separate the fluffy, warm concept of "mother" from the reality of what many of us have experienced. I mean, how far did we each get into adulthood before we managed to separate that out? Speaking for myself (but it seems to be typical), I spent a LOT of time being lulled into the warm fantasy, then being shocked at the reality, and trying to adjust myself to make that mother idea true. So I completely understand people not getting it.

 

I do appreciate when those who don't get it appear to accept my choice without prejudice.

[pdalley]

you're coming across as someone who has no idea what is really going on because you've "dealt with people who weren't nice". nor an understanding of the utter pscyhological damage NPD/BPD mothers inflict. this is NOT about bitterness, but about recovery. It is about recognition so you can protect children from the damage. It's understanding how to erect appropriate boundaries so the mind games stop. it is about understanding your perceptions are real and this stuff really is wrong and it's okay to object. Not doing those things is the same as bailing water without plugging the leak.

 

NPD/BPDers make you think YOU are crazy and you honestly don't know what is what anymore. they turn everything upside down and you question your own sanity. go read up on gaslighting. (or go watch gaslight with ingrid bergman. that's where the term comes from and psychologists do use it.) understanding what is happening is part of recovering.

 

it wasn't until I finally understood HER and that she was BPD that I could finally let the hurt go. That doesn't mean I've forgotten.

 

eta: I was psychologically abused by this woman - I have NEVER done anything to my own children. (1dd has heard lots, and often tells me how glad she is I'm her mother. we have a great relationship - I'm the first generation to have that relationship - I didn't "learn" it from anyone.) even my mother was nothing like her mother. all of my children feel loved and cherished for who they are and they love each other (four of them are adults) - I was raised to compete to the death for aprobation and my siblings and I are all barely speaking with each other.

 

 

:iagree:

 

My mother was nothing like her own mother. She was - however - almost a carbon copy of her grandmother who appears to also have had NPD. And it is very odd as my mother had limited contact with her grandmother.

 

Unless you've had to deal with an almost daily rant of 'if abortion had been legal I'd of aborted you' or the 'suicide plot of the day' or 'I knew you'd mess that up - you can't do anything right' to the final nail in the coffin - 'You honestly don't believe your children are going to be independent functioning adults do you?' - then you have no idea how it was to be my mother's daughter.

[Alicia64]

I haven't read all of the posts, but my mom and dad are both like this. It's awful. Without being dramatic, I've decided to go "no contact." I didn't even let them know -- I don't want the drama.

 

Two years ago we moved 3,000 miles away. I sooo wish I'd done this decades ago. Btw, I'm 47 and I'm pretty sure my parents had me to keep my dad out of the Vietnam war. So, yeah, I was being used from the beginning. I too have "mean mom" stories from when I was really young.

 

I'm certain that they have NPD -- Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Your mom too. Has anyone told you about http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com? Very worthwhile. It's helped me a lot.

 

Also, I don't agree with the "hang in there. She's 80 thing at all." She could live to be 95 and your kids will be grown up by then. Anyone who says that doesn't really understand how awful it is to deal with an NPD person.

 

As you know, it's AWFUL. And you've done NOTHING WRONG. It's not normal to treat your own child this way -- or anybody else's child. Your thinking that it has something to do with you is completely wrong. Your mom's behavior has nothing at all to do with you. (Which in some ways is sad too because there's noting you can do to help her behave better.)

 

Do what I'm doing: get on with your life and be a fabulous mother to your own kids.

 

Alley

[Alicia64]

Unless you've had to deal with an almost daily rant of 'if abortion had been legal I'd of aborted you' or the 'suicide plot of the day' or 'I knew you'd mess that up - you can't do anything right' to the final nail in the coffin - 'You honestly don't believe your children are going to be independent functioning adults do you?' - then you have no idea how it was to be my mother's daughter.

 

This broke my heart. I am so sorry that you had to endure this. Abuse can be hitting, but abuse most certainly can be breaking down a child's sense of self. I hesitate to use a spiritual term like "evil," but what else can you call someone who says things like this.

 

Again, I'm so sorry.

 

Alley

[gardenmom5]

Ironically, my husband has been the only person in the past few years who pulled out the "but she's your mother" argument. And he knows how toxic she is.

 

I do think it's hard for people to separate the fluffy, warm concept of "mother" from the reality of what many of us have experienced. .

 

My husband has a mother with *many* compulsions and serious quirks and I can respect her from a distance - or when I'm wearing earplugs. "why did she buy six drill bits? that's all they had." (true story.)

 

He used to tell me I was just oversensitive to my grandmother, and yeah, she "wasn't nice", but I was oversensitive. (Of course the fact dh could twist her tail so much by simply being excruciatingly polite probably contributed to that perception.) Then one day. . . , I honestly do NOT remember what she did, just that it was totally typical for her. (I was resistant to her manipulation ploys by that point.) I was telling him about it, and he stood there absolutely stunned. "I take it back, she's as bad as you say."

 

I understand those on the outside think these may simply be quirky people, but have no clue just how insisdious they are in their mind games. in the donm materials it talks about how the abuse is programmed in, it is a form of brainwashing. those on the outside rarely see "it", and will even think these are "charming" people. all the more to make the daughters think they are the crazy one.

Edited April 28, 2012 by gardenmom5

[OnTheBrink]

 

Unless you've had to deal with an almost daily rant of 'if abortion had been legal I'd of aborted you' or the 'suicide plot of the day' or 'I knew you'd mess that up - you can't do anything right' to the final nail in the coffin - 'You honestly don't believe your children are going to be independent functioning adults do you?' - then you have no idea how it was to be my mother's daughter.

 

I think we had the same mother. I got the "I'd have aborted you" and "can't you do ANYTHING right?" lines all. the. time.

 

:grouphug:

[tricia]

Wow, sounds just like my mom. I've had many times in the past when I had to deal with the choice of cutting her off so to speak. What I found helpful was just to stay away for a while until I could reload and refresh myself. Usually a few weeks to a few months. I can't take her at all but do I really want to the smaller person? After all, I do have to live with myself. Her siblings and my siblings see how she is to me and they are amazed how I deal with it. Again, I have to live with the choices I make and being a blank to her isn't what I want to take to my grave. My mom lives about 7 hours away and that is helpful. Plus I have so many children I can use for 'excuses' as to why I don't visit much that it works out great. Hope this helps.

[pdalley]

This broke my heart. I am so sorry that you had to endure this. Abuse can be hitting, but abuse most certainly can be breaking down a child's sense of self. I hesitate to use a spiritual term like "evil," but what else can you call someone who says things like this.

 

Again, I'm so sorry.

 

Alley

 

Thank you. Until I found this board I thought I was the only person. I'm sorry those of us who had parents like this had to go through what we did but I am so glad we can be here for each other. It means a lot to know I'm not crazy. :grouphug:

[Mommy22alyns]

:iagree:

 

My mother was nothing like her own mother. She was - however - almost a carbon copy of her grandmother who appears to also have had NPD. And it is very odd as my mother had limited contact with her grandmother.

 

Unless you've had to deal with an almost daily rant of 'if abortion had been legal I'd of aborted you' or the 'suicide plot of the day' or 'I knew you'd mess that up - you can't do anything right' to the final nail in the coffin - 'You honestly don't believe your children are going to be independent functioning adults do you?' - then you have no idea how it was to be my mother's daughter.

 

 

:grouphug: Yep, I got this too - lovely, isn't it?

[pdalley]

:grouphug: Yep, I got this too - lovely, isn't it?

 

 

:grouphug:

I cannot imagine ever saying something like that to one of my kids. Or even about my kids. When I did have an accidental pregnancy when I was younger and chose adoption she screamed at me because I wouldn't have an abortion. Said I was ruining 'her' life and the life she'd planned for me.

 

Yesterday my youngest wanted to ride with me to the bank to take care of some estate business for my mother. I said sure and if there were any reason why and he said - and looked at me oddly - 'I just like being with you, Mom.'

 

Moments like that go a long way to healing. :)

[ryyans]

More people need to know about NPD. These people can be like murders in the sense they will try at least to kill your spirit. Especially the scapegoat child...they aren't some out of control loose cannon but sneaky, calculating, liars who will slander you to ....no matter that you are their grown flesh and blood child

They have no natural affections. None.

[Alicia64]

There is a great analogy in the ebook "What Makes Narcissists Tick": we know tigers are dangerous, wild creatures. We don't hate tigers for being what they are. (And, I would add, nor do we "forgive" them for being dangerous predators) We simply don't get in the cage with them.

 

Some people choose to learn to "safely" (relatively speaking) interact with the tiger. Most don't. It's not punitive, it's self-preservation.

 

I LOVE THIS!! Thanks for sharing. I'm printing and keeping it close by!

 

Alley