Trayvon Martin...is anyone following??

[Trish]

I see the smear campaign is working.

 

That man (Zimmerman) should not have been there in the first place. Had he not been so suspicious, or if he had simply taken the advise of the dispatcher, he would never have been near this kid. Besides, is it your position that gang members are fair game for hunting when they're out buying snacks?

 

Step away from the teevee. There is more balanced info out there, and let the justice system do its job without portraying either person as a saint.

[clarkacademy]

Wow,,,,, Zimmerman was the ONE followed the kid with a gun So the kid just supposed to lie there and just take it?? The boy has family also. And U know the boy enough to make a comment or simply because he is a black and smoke pot so automatically he deserved to die?:confused:

 

I am going to make it very clear one time, these remarks are why race is still an issue. I will make it clear one time I don't care what color you are your banging my head and I have a gun you will be shot. I also do not like the assumption that I have any race issues at all for your information my best friend my brother was blacker than that kid and i buried him a few short years ago.

 

He also worked 80 hours a week, didn't hang out with questionable people, get in trouble and throw out gang signs. This kid was a trouble maker and if he had been white there would be NO STORY. If Zimmerman was black there would be NO STORY. This is a story because a white man shot a black kid who didn't act like a kid in my opinion but whatever.

 

There are two sides to every story and again if it was not a white man who shot there would be no news. Media and the majority of people it seems all wanna cry race everytime something happens. This exuse is getting old and quite frankly stupid.

[Lovin Learnin]

Step away from the teevee. There is more balanced info out there, and let the justice system do its job without portraying either person as a saint.

 

Saint?? I don't know either of these people so I have never claimed sainthood. But I can't justify condemning a man to death (even a gang member) because he punched a guy who was stalking him with a gun. Self defense.

[AuntieM]

I don't see how anything in Trayvon's character would have anything to do with what happened that night. He was STALKED. By a man who was told by the police to leave him alone and not follow him. Let's forget what you think you know about either of these men. If you were being stalked by someone do you think it is ok to defend yourself? What should Trayvon have done? In my opinion it really doesn't matter if he was a gang member or not (and I personally believe this is part of a smear campaign). His character was not the reason Zimmerman followed him because he would not have known that. All he saw was a young, black man in a hoodie. THAT is why he followed him.

 

Again I ask, what is the appropriate response when you're heading home and someone is stalking you with a weapon?

 

One question will never be answered. If Martin had killed Zimmerman before Zimmerman shot him, would he be protected under the SYG law?

[deacongirl]

"Ultimately, whether Martin was a perfect person is irrelevant to whether Zimmerman’s conduct that night was justified. Clearly, there are two different versions of the events that transpired on February 26, the night Trayvon was killed. There are conflicting statements by witnesses and conflicting evidence as to who was the aggressor. Zimmerman has the right to tell his side of the story. But his opportunity to do this will come in a court of law after he is charged and arrested. In the meantime, Zimmerman’s supporters should stop trying to smear the reputation of a dead, 17-year-old boy."

 

Judd Legum

[jennynd]

I am going to make it very clear one time, these remarks are why race is still an issue. I will make it clear one time I don't care what color you are your banging my head and I have a gun you will be shot. I also do not like the assumption that I have any race issues at all for your information my best friend my brother was blacker than that kid and i buried him a few short years ago.

 

He also worked 80 hours a week, didn't hang out with questionable people, get in trouble and throw out gang signs. This kid was a trouble maker and if he had been white there would be NO STORY. If Zimmerman was black there would be NO STORY. This is a story because a white man shot a black kid who didn't act like a kid in my opinion but whatever.

 

There are two sides to every story and again if it was not a white man who shot there would be no news. Media and the majority of people it seems all wanna cry race everytime something happens. This exuse is getting old and quite frankly stupid.

so just because he hang out with ganster he derseve to die even he didn't do anything wrong? And How did zimmerman knew that he is a gangster at the time he shot him? at the time the kid got shot, he has ice tea in his hand. and zimmerman has a gun

 

yes, it will be no story if it the kid is a white or zimmerman is a black. because zimmerman will be in jail now.

 

No, I do not want to cry for race. It is simply not fair that this kid get to shot to death beacuse he is a black.

 

And simply make a judgement that the kid is dangerous simply from a picture is frankly stupid

[kwg]

It is awful, that poor boy and his family. I am not sure what to think.

 

I just read this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-friends-george-zimmerman-defense-racist-fears-life-article-1.1050568

 

Frank Taafe, a neighbor and fellow crime-watcher who has been in touch with Zimmerman, also told ABC that the 911 calls didn't tell the whole story.

 

Taafe believed Trayvon provoked Zimmerman before the shooting.

 

"George didn't just jump out of a car and start running after Trayvon, pull out a gun and shoot him just for his Skittles and his iced tea," Taafe said.

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-friends-george-zimmerman-defense-racist-fears-life-article-1.1050568#ixzz1qH4tEdog

[GailV]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:I needed a laugh tonight!

 

Based on CMPA's studies, they are. There is a valid reason for stating the position.

 

Teaching moment for y'all: I really stink at identifying types of fallacies and all. Would that be an Appeal to Emotion?

[LizzyBee]

From your link:

 

Zimmerman's account emerged for the first time Monday in a report by The Orlando Sentinel. Quoting unidentified "law enforcement authorities," the Sentinel reported that Zimmerman told police that Trayvon Martin knocked him down with a single punch and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times before the shooting — an account that police said witnesses have corroborated.

Zimmerman said he was walking back to his SUV when Martin approached him from behind, according to the Sentinel's report, which Sanford police confirmed Monday afternoon.

The two exchanged words before Martin decked him with a punch to the nose and began beating him, Zimmerman told police. He said he then shot Martin in self-defense.

Witnesses said they heard someone cry out in distress, some of them telling NBC News and other news organizations that it was Martin. But police sources told the Sentinel their evidence indicated it was Zimmerman.

Dateline NBC interviews woman who saw aftermath

One witness told police he saw Martin pounding Zimmerman on the ground. This witness was certain it was Zimmerman who was crying for help, the Sentinel reported.

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and had a swollen lip and bloody lacerations to the back of his head, the newspaper reported. Police said Zimmerman wasn't badly injured and didn't seek treatment until the next day.

ABC News reported separately that Zimmerman told police that Martin also tried to take his gun.

 

 

If the above turns out to be true, does that change anyone's opinion of what happened? I'm curious.

 

If Zimmerman had simply called it in and then waited for the police to show up and do their job, the entire altercation could have been avoided. How is it okay to provoke a fight and then claim self-defense? Based on what we know now (subject to revision if I were on a jury and got to see ALL the evidence), I would have no problem finding Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter.

Edited March 27, 2012 by LizzyBee

[Lovin Learnin]

If Zimmerman had simply called it in and then waited for the police to show up and do their job, the entire altercation could have been avoided. How is it okay to provoke a fight and then claim self-defense? Based on what we know now (subject to revision if were on a jury and got to see ALL the evidence), I would have no problem finding Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter.

 

:iagree:

[texascamps]

So far nobody has the full story, but the recorded police tapes are most telling, imo. The story begins with Zimmerman calling to report a suspicious man walking in the neighborhood. The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following this man and he said yes. He was then told not to. Enough said. Had he left him alone the altercation never would have occurred.

 

No, that's not the entire story, that's where the reporting ended. We do not know what happened next with any certainty because its not being reported.

 

Did Z hang up with the Dispatcher? It seems so because we would have the recording of the dispatcher hearing the altercation.

 

When exactly did the police turn up? We don't know.

 

Were the witnesses part of the Grand Jury investigation? We don't know yet.

 

Z says he returned to his car after speaking with the dispatcher. Did he? Are there witnesses to this. We don't know.

 

Were there words exchanged between Z and T? We don't know, because WE are not part of the process. We don't necessarily get to know.

 

Plus, folks here keep saying he was chasing after him with a gun. Please, he had a conceal carry permit and yes, he was armed. If Z had been "stalking" him with a gun out in the open then Trayvon would have either fled or said something about it to the woman on the phone. "he's got a gun!" I suspect that if T knew Z was armed then he would have taken off quickly and not have gotten into the fight in the first place.

 

Why isn't Z allowed to patrol his own neighborhood? Is there some law that they are citing that I haven't seen yet.

 

What concerns me the most is how so many big names have already condemned without the facts. So many awful threats have been thrown out there that can never be taken back. It sounds like that no matter what evidence comes out, both sides are so entrenched in being right that this can not possible end well. Opinions have already been solidified. We all know how hard it is to go back and say "Ooops, I was wrong?" Especially when one has committed their whole reputation to something.

 

So, I just see the Sharptons and Spike Lees put themselves out there with half the facts to the point that they can never take any of it back without looking foolish, so they won't ever say "oops" no matter what. They can't. That makes the climate even worse.

 

On the other side, we see a guilt ridden man, who says he is devistated. He may know that it was all one big mistake that he can never take it back. His family is ruined and his life is ruined. And not matter what facts come out there will be a faction of people that will find him guilty no matter what. They will want him dead.

 

This media frenzy has been dishonest...and for the last five days, as spectators, we've been played.

[Joker]

No, we weren't there but I still don't understand why he couldn't have stayed in the safety of his car. If he was involved in the neighborhood watch then he did his part by making the call to police, there was no need to get out and follow him on foot -- with a gun. I haven't read reports of anyone saying Trayvon Martin was attempting to break into their home or was harming anyone. He was there because his father lived in the neighborhood.

 

I also don't understand why the police did no alcohol or drug screening on Zimmerman. I don't know why they just took his word without much follow up. They sent a narcotics officer to question and there are some witnesses who said they were "corrected". They also didn't follow up with the girl Martin was on the phone with at the time of the shooting even though they had his phone and, therefore, his records. Zimmerman had a previous arrest for assaulting a police officer, so a history of violence. Martin had no previous arrests. There are many things to be upset about in regards to this shooting and the way it was handled by the authorities.

[Joker]

 

This media frenzy has been dishonest...and for the last five days, as spectators, we've been played.

 

I live in the area and this has been in my news for weeks, not just days. I'm glad it's reached a national level, if for no other reason than the stupid 'Stand Your Ground' law is getting attention and will hopefully be changed.

[Halcyon]

I live in the area and this has been in my news for weeks, not just days. I'm glad it's reached a national level, if for no other reason than the stupid 'Stand Your Ground' law is getting attention and will hopefully be changed.

 

:iagree: I live a couple of hours away and this law is just ridiculous.

[LauraGB]

Coming late to the party (as usual). A few days ago I received an email from change .dot. org asking me to sign a petition put forth by Trevon's parents to arrest the man who shot him. I waited to hear more about the story before I signed anything. Then I received a second email requesting the same thing. My heart was breaking for this family, but still I didn't feel qualified to sign squat without having any real details. It has been a week and little bits and pieces are trickling out, but nothing that I feel should educate a general citizen enough to make any sort of judgement.

 

It is a tragedy, absolutely. This family lost a child. Anytime someone dies, it is a tragedy. I still don't know how the shooter was assessed. I still don't know the circumstances around his death. I do know that a lot of political people/groups are gaining popularity with this, though. And I think that that is interfering with "rest of the story". And I think that's a big fat shame because now that it has been politicized to this point, we may never know the whole story and justice may never be done.

 

My thoughts, prayers and sympathy go out to that child's family.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

So far nobody has the full story, but the recorded police tapes are most telling, imo. The story begins with Zimmerman calling to report a suspicious man walking in the neighborhood. The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following this man and he said yes. He was then told not to. Enough said. Had he left him alone the altercation never would have occurred.

 

The exact quote from the dispatcher was "We don't need you to do that." not exactly a direct order not to follow Martin.

[TXBeth]

The biggest issue for me is that the moment Z stepped out of his car to approach/confront T, he was acting in his role as "neighborhood watchman," and in that capacity it was NOT legal for him to be armed. Therefore, "stand your ground" should not apply because Z was engaged in illegal activity at the time.

[Jennifer3141]

One of the things I have a hard time with on this case as a liberal hippy is that I'm almost totally OK with a cop shooting a child in a situation like this because I believe most cops in our country are highly trained. If it was a cop doing the pursuing, I would be less likely to think the cop was a jerk because I believe police officers are trained in detecting and subduing probable criminals.

 

But this guy? This was some neighborhood guy packing a gun who really should not have been. I think Neighborhood Watch is a great idea but it is their job to WATCH, not defend.

 

I actually like the idea of a well armed militia and a well armed police force in America. What I do not like is the idea that any maniac can join an organization and decide to ACT like a police officer after a couple of hours of training.

 

And we have guns in our home - lots of them! We have Dirty Harry's gun and the one a size down from Dirty Harry's gun because I ordered the wrong one and then DH liked the idea of having both. :D

Do I want my DH out there walking my neighborhood with one of those guns though? Nope. Because he is not a trained police officer. He's a doctor and he might panic, over react, draw too quick or too slow or whatever. Now if DH suddenly developed a hankering for walking around our neighborhood at night and making sure no one was lurking in our neighbors' yards, go for it. Take your CELL PHONE and go for it.

 

If it was Neighborhood Watch's job to actually subdue and arrest criminals then they wouldn't be "watchers." They would be police officers. If I were running this organization, I would be beyond livid at this Zimmerman ^%$@$%$@.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Jennifer3141

[ChocolateReignRemix]

The biggest issue for me is that the moment Z stepped out of his car to approach/confront T, he was acting in his role as "neighborhood watchman," and in that capacity it was NOT legal for him to be armed. Therefore, "stand your ground" should not apply because Z was engaged in illegal activity at the time.

 

Nonsense. Stepping out of the car was not an illegal act, he did not engage in an illegal act, and he was carrying the weapon with a legal permit. Stepping out of the vehicle did not change his legal status.

[Mrs Mungo]

Nonsense. Stepping out of the car was not an illegal act, he did not engage in an illegal act, and he was carrying the weapon with a legal permit. Stepping out of the vehicle did not change his legal status.

 

If he provoked a confrontation, then it does. But, being neighborhood watch and concealed carry are not illegal, from my understanding, just against NW rules. I have not signed a petition to arrest the shooter because I think it is a waste of time. SYG in Florida is too broad. I would sign a petition to change the law.

[warriormom]

From what I understand, Zimmerman had a broken nose and injury to the back of the head with grass stains on his back which implies that Trayvon was standing over him beating his head in. Zimmerman carried a concealed weapon regularly with a concealed weapons permit. Zimmerman is not a white man. He is Hispanic ( Half Hispanic half white). In my book that makes him hispanic....just like Obama is half white and half black. I do not consider him white. Keep in mind I am white and my husband is Hispanic. Our kids are Hispanic.

 

Zimmerman did make a racial slur...but anyone under the influence of stress and adrenaline I challenge you to see if you would say something "his or her mother would not be proud of". Zimmerman in the past stopped home invasions and other crimes in his neighborhood. The neighborhood is 51% black. This neighborhood dealt with lots of crime.

 

I 100% believe that Zimmerman should have followed the directions of the 911 operator. He did follow the protocal of the neighborhood watch. Zimmerman approached Trayvon to ask him what he was doing in the neighborhood. Trayvon responded with physical violence ( enough force to break his nose and cause injury to the back of his head). Zimmerman felt that Trayvon could kill him. He was not aware that he was unarmed. Zimmerman shot Trayvon with Trayvon standing over him. Zimmerman is devastated and unable to sleep.

 

Trayvon was not a saint. He was suspended for marijuana possession and suspected to be a small time dealer( based on some Facebook posts from friends). He is also suspected to have punched a bus driver.

 

All this to say, this is a horrible tragedy. Both families are changed forever.in my opinion, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson need to go home. This is not a racial issue. Just because someone lies one time, does not make him a liar. Just because someone says one racial remark, does not make him a racist. Zimmerman has black family members and friends who have stood up for him. There is evidence that the police will not disclose which they believe makes this an " open and shut case".

 

All of the information above you will not hear on a broadcast because the media has a liberal agenda. Ok, I said it. I feel better. Mr. Zimmerman made some bad decisions and so did Trayvon. Unfortunately Trayvon paid with his life. Mr. Zimmerman has the right under the second amendment to bear arms. He did have a permit for a concealed weapon which does not make him a monster like the media wants to portray.

[LucyStoner]

 

I guess one problem with that kind of law is that there is no one to contradict the killer's claim that their act was one of self-defense.

 

Exactly. I mean, I can defend myself in my state too. But I need more than my word to prove that an unarmed kid on a public street carrying a snack is attacking me. Looking suspicious to someone carrying a gun is not a reason to be shot and killed. It appears the shooter pursued, engaged with and shot a kid. That is just NOT ok.

Edited March 27, 2012 by kijipt

[ChocolateReignRemix]

If he provoked a confrontation, then it does. But, being neighborhood watch and concealed carry are not illegal, from my understanding, just against NW rules. I have not signed a petition to arrest the shooter because I think it is a waste of time. SYG in Florida is too broad. I would sign a petition to change the law.

 

It has yet to be shown he provoked a confrontation. Even if he did in some way verbally did so, he doesn't lose the right to self defense if the other party escalates it to a physical confrontation.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Exactly. I mean, I can defend myself in my state too. But I need more than my word to prove that an unarmed kid on a public street carrying a snack is attacking me. Looking suspicious to someone carrying a gun is not a reason to be shot and killed. It appears the shooter pursued and shot a kid heading home with skittles. That is just NOT ok.

 

Isn't an eyewitness and physical injuries a pretty decent starting point for evidence that Zimmerman was defending himself?

[LizzyBee]

Were the witnesses part of the Grand Jury investigation? We don't know yet.

 

The case doesn't go to the grand jury until April 10. My understanding is that prior to the case hitting the national news, the decision had already been made not to prosecute. If all this publicity hadn't happened, the case wouldn't have been heard by a grand jury.

[Mrs Mungo]

It has yet to be shown he provoked a confrontation. Even if he did in some way verbally did so, he doesn't lose the right to self defense if the other party escalates it to a physical confrontation.

 

If the shooter pushed *first*, then he does lose the right to shoot the person with whom he has an altercation. I agree that we don't have all of the facts yet. But, there is zero doubt in my mind that the Florida law is wrong, too broad, and needs a duty to retreat clause. I don't need the media to convince me of that.

[Jennifer3141]

Isn't an eyewitness and physical injuries a pretty decent starting point for evidence that Zimmerman was defending himself?

 

If you've ever studied criminal justice at all, you learn that just about the LAST thing the police and prosecuting attorneys want is eyewitnesses. As human beings, we really stink at remembering what is going on in the heat of the moment. And we stink at judging anyone who doesn't look or sound just like ourselves. You want good, incontrovertible physical evidence.

 

And there are supposedly eye witnesses for Trayvon's "side" too.

 

I'm wondering if the reports of Zimmerman having a broken nose/bashed in head/whatever are true, why did it take so long for that to come out? Why did a police chief basically resign over this then? If I were Zimmerman and these reports are true, I'd be on CNN with my medical records on hand in a New York second. I wouldn't make it known WEEKS later.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

If the shooter pushed *first*, then he does lose the right to shoot the person with whom he has an altercation. I agree that we don't have all of the facts yet. But, there is zero doubt in my mind that the Florida law is wrong, too broad, and needs a duty to retreat clause. I don't need the media to convince me of that.

 

And you have no reason to believe Zimmerman assaulted Martin first. I also disagree with you on the SYG laws. Being in a public space doesn't require you to lose your right to self defense.

[ktgrok]

Isn't an eyewitness and physical injuries a pretty decent starting point for evidence that Zimmerman was defending himself?

 

The injuries don't say who started the fight.

[Jennifer3141]

The injuries don't say who started the fight.

 

Nor do the injuries prove Trayvon did them. People here have stated they would be afraid of Trayvon because he was a tall, 200 pound kid. Well, this Zimmerman man looks like a boxer, IMO. Maybe he bashed his head in earlier that day. :glare:

[Mrs Mungo]

And you have no reason to believe Zimmerman assaulted Martin first. I also disagree with you on the SYG laws. Being in a public space doesn't require you to lose your right to self defense.

 

I have zero reason to believe that he didn't. Again, these are wait-and-see what the court transcripts say, if it ever goes to trial. Again, *I* do not think it will go to trial because I think Florida's current law basically allows for this. Dozens of shooters have gotten off in questionable cases. This just might be the one that gets the right sort of publicity to change the law. And I truly hope that it happens.

 

What did I say about a public space? I said there should be a duty to retreat clause. Meaning, if you can walk away, then you should. You should not be able to stalk someone through their neighborhood, confront them and then shoot them if/when they react.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

If you've ever studied criminal justice at all, you learn that just about the LAST thing the police and prosecuting attorneys want is eyewitnesses. As human beings, we really stink at remembering what is going on in the heat of the moment. And we stink at judging anyone who doesn't look or sound just like ourselves. You want good, incontrovertible physical evidence.

 

And there are supposedly eye witnesses for Trayvon's "side" too.

 

I'm wondering if the reports of Zimmerman having a broken nose/bashed in head/whatever are true, why did it take so long for that to come out? Why did a police chief basically resign over this then? If I were Zimmerman and these reports are true, I'd be on CNN with my medical records on hand in a New York second. I wouldn't make it known WEEKS later.

 

The physical evidence reported matches the eyewitness testimony. There rarely is incontrovertible physical evidence.

 

FYI, none of the first "witnesses" trotted out by the Martin family attorney actually saw anything prior to the shooting. I also read reports of Martin's physical injuries when the story was initially reported, and the initial police report was that the physical evidence supported Zimmerman's claims. The reporting in Florida initially was much more detailed than the national coverage.

[warriormom]

This was not a white neighborhood. It is 51% black with a high crime rate. Zimmerman had actually stopped crimes in the past without incident. Zimmerman is not white but hispanic. Last time I checked that is a minority. When the man who shot Trayvon had a broken nose and injury to the back of his head with grass stains on the back of his shirt, it seems to me he was attacked. Yes, he should have heeded the direction of the 911 dispatcher. I know Zimmerman would take it back if he could. This man is devastated not triumphant.

 

America is way better than any other place on this planet. At least we can worship in our churches without the church being blown up by crazy extremists. We do not circumsize women in a crude fashion against their will. We have the right to disagree with our government without fear of retribution. We defend people who we 100% disagree with them because we are free. We do not abort babies against the mother's will because they are over their quota for children.

 

This is not post racial America. This is Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton protesting a case that most of the evidence has been withheld. This is the liberal political machine also known as the media trying to divide our country in an election year. Do not buy into the propaganda. Google, research and get all sides of this case. Read the police record with an open mind. Take the racial component out of it and try to look at the facts with an open mind.

 

Yes, I was outraged when I heard the shallow reporting of the media. I took the time to research the facts in the case before I came to a conclusion.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to post racial America were a black young man is killed for walking in a white neighborhood while black and nothing is done.

 

This is an example of systematic racism in which the cops did not investigate because it appeared open and shut black man white neighborhood of course he was suspicious and self defense had to be used.

 

Not to mention it has taken a month to get into the media.

 

It is sad and scares me that many people think racism does not exist systematically in the us because we voted in a black president.

Edited March 27, 2012 by cabreban

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I have zero reason to believe that he didn't. Again, these are wait-and-see what the court transcripts say, if it ever goes to trial. Again, *I* do not think it will go to trial because I think Florida's current law basically allows for this. Dozens of shooters have gotten off in questionable cases. This just might be the one that gets the right sort of publicity to change the law. And I truly hope that it happens.

 

What did I say about a public space? I said there should be a duty to retreat clause. Meaning, if you can walk away, then you should. You should not be able to stalk someone through their neighborhood, confront them and then shoot them if/when they react.

 

 

So what evidence is there Zimmerman assaulted Martin first?

 

Following /= stalking.

Confronting /= physically attacking.

Someone cannot retreat if their attacker is in top of them. Zimmerman's claim is he was attacked while returning to his vehicle, and the eyewitness states Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Based on your own statements, your attempt to make this about the SYG law makes no sense.

[LeslieAnneLevine]

 

What did I say about a public space? I said there should be a duty to retreat clause. Meaning, if you can walk away, then you should. You should not be able to stalk someone through their neighborhood, confront them and then shoot them if/when they react.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I couldn't agree more.

[LucyStoner]

People on this thread keep mentioning that Trayvon was 200 pounds and 6+ feet tall. So is my older brother, who is also black. My quite white husband is also tall and fairly muscular (but more like 180 pounds). Both wear in a car[/b] his tattoos and/or teeth are irrelevant."]hoodies. Guess which one has never been stopped and questioned for no other reason than just being on the street or in a store? From a distance, clothed and in a car his tattoos and/or teeth are irrelevant and I find it silly that people keep mentioning them. Walking around while big is not a crime. Tattoos are not a crime (otherwise, I need to stand trial!:glare:)

 

As for the violence reported by the shooter (the injuries from which the police reported as not serious and that required no medical attention that night), can no one understand pushing back or lashing out at someone who is approaching you on the street, presumably in an accusatory fashion? The only times I have been randomly stopped or followed by those with real or assumed authority, it has been in the company of my brother or a friend and it is frustrating and gets old fast.

 

The shooter felt the need to approach someone for no plausible reason other than his gut feeling. I don't know about WTM posters, but I live in an "improving" neighborhood with some history of sketchy activities at times (mostly in the past like 2-5 years ago, but still some random stuff.) I call the cops as needed and I called them all the flipping time when we first got here, mostly to report "Johns" trolling for hookers and drugs or to report being approached to buy drugs. But when I see someone on the street that makes me go errr, I dunno if I wanna get to know that person, I WALK AWAY. If approached, I try and WALK away or verbally let the person know to LEAVE ME ALONE. I only called the cops if I saw drug or prostitution or tagging or heard a loud dispute. I do not call the cops just because of how someone looks. I do not engage unless someone approaches me or I see that someone else's safety is in jeopardy.

 

As for the supposed "liberal media" spin. Well. Had I, a white, reasonably attractive middle class mother of two been shot to death after punching a man who accosted me in the dark on the way home from the corner store, it would likely be national or at least regional, news very quickly and the dude if caught would be more likely to get the death penalty (with the death penalty even more likely if he was not white) than a delayed possible manslaughter charge. What kind of spin is that? Female, white, attractive, middle class victims get far more coverage and reach than victims who are male, minority, not very pretty, lower income. It took a long time for this story to escalate to the national level and the criminal justice system reacts MUCH differently. That is the sort of spin I care about.

Edited March 27, 2012 by kijipt

[Jennifer3141]

Ok, if this neighborhood is 51% black why was Trayvon "suspicious" in the first place? Shouldn't half the people walking down the street there be black?

[warriormom]

This neighborhood had a crime problem. Zimmerman had actually stopped crimes in the past and was given credit in the local paper. I would guess Z's job as a neighborhood watchman was to look for suspicious activity. He approached Trayvon to see what was going on. T chose to make it physical. unfortunately Trayvon paid for this mistake with his life. Z has been a neighborhood watchman for a while. He carries a concealed weapon regularly with a permit. This is not some man who chased after T with guns blazing like the media describes.

[Joker]

How is it suspicious activity to be walking home to your dad's house? If Zimmerman is such a stellar neighborhood watchman, why didn't he know that Trayvon was someone who was supposed to be there? Why do NW get to determine who is allowed to walk through a neighborhood ~ and then pursue suspicious individuals with a gun? I'm beginning to dislike the very idea of NW if they are allowed so much power.

[Mrs Mungo]

So what evidence is there Zimmerman assaulted Martin first?

 

Following /= stalking.

Confronting /= physically attacking.

Someone cannot retreat if their attacker is in top of them. Zimmerman's claim is he was attacked while returning to his vehicle, and the eyewitness states Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Based on your own statements, your attempt to make this about the SYG law makes no sense.

 

The eyewitness is listed as a friend of Zimmerman. And, based on his statements, he didn't see how it started. For me it *is* about the SYG law, which allowed the murderer of a close friend to go free.

 

This neighborhood had a crime problem. Zimmerman had actually stopped crimes in the past and was given credit in the local paper. I would guess Z's job as a neighborhood watchman was to look for suspicious activity. He approached Trayvon to see what was going on. T chose to make it physical. unfortunately Trayvon paid for this mistake with his life. Z has been a neighborhood watchman for a while. He carries a concealed weapon regularly with a permit. This is not some man who chased after T with guns blazing like the media describes.

 

My parents live in a largely Hispanic neighborhood. The neighborhood has crime problems. My parents had their front door busted down a couple of weeks ago, but their house alarm scared the burglars away. That does not give my parents the right to prowl the streets with guns looking for Hispanic people to confront!! The Neighborhood Watch rules (they have been posted online) forbid carrying weapons, following people or confronting people while "on patrol." The 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow the teen. This is about the SYG law because the government cannot be actively encouraging vigilante justice! We have trained police forces for a reason!

 

[editing because there are conflicting reports on this, but some reports are saying that Zimmerman is the one with a criminal record. He has a record for assaulting a police officer and for two domestic assaults. But, this is why I would rather look at the law that allows this sort of behavior instead of an developing case.]

 

Eta: And none of us has the *actual facts* of this case, and we never will. It is the shooter's word versus a dead guy in these cases. That is why the shooters get off so often since SYG passed.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[LucyStoner]

Isn't an eyewitness and physical injuries a pretty decent starting point for evidence that Zimmerman was defending himself?

 

Isn't knowing that the shooter was in the safety of a car moments before a pretty decent starting point for evidence that oh say, he did not approach in a non-confrontational manner and had no real reason to approach? He witnessed no illicit or illegal activity yet decided to approach. That says a lot to me about why he chose to do what he did and about why the victim may have hit him. We have no way of knowing who hit first and it is hardly a leap to say that the friend of the shooter would perhaps interpret what he saw in favor of his friend or even intentionally lie for a friend. We just don't know. I am glad to live in a state where lethal force is not assumed ok unless it is demonstrated that the threat was in fact a serious threat to myself or others.

 

Frankly, I am not assuming anything other than that if the shooter had stayed in his car and not acted as he did, he would have not been hit and the victim would not have been shot. And a child (yes 17 is a CHILD) would not be dead.

Edited March 27, 2012 by kijipt

[ChocolateReignRemix]

How is it suspicious activity to be walking home to your dad's house? If Zimmerman is such a stellar neighborhood watchman, why didn't he know that Trayvon was someone who was supposed to be there? Why do NW get to determine who is allowed to walk through a neighborhood ~ and then pursue suspicious individuals with a gun? I'm beginning to dislike the very idea of NW if they are allowed so much power.

 

Because Trayvon was visiting his father, and normally lives 200+ miles away.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

Frankly, I am not assuming anything other than that if the shooter had stayed in his car and not acted as he did, he would have not been hit and the victim would not have been shot. And a child (yes 17 is a CHILD) would not be dead.

 

 

Leaving vehicle: not illegal.

Hitting another person: illegal.

 

If Martin assaulted Zimmerman, then he bears the blame for the end result.

[warriormom]

I do not think you understand. This man did not have his gun unholstered. He carries a gun with him like some wear a cellphone. It is his right. He has a concealed weapons permit. If a police man was pursuing someone, would you say that he was pursuing someone with a gun if it was in a holster?

 

Here is an article that tells you the good, the bad and the ugly of Zimmerman. If you have not read it before, please read the whole article. http://www.minnpost.com/christian-science-monitor/2012/03/who-george-zimmerman-and-why-did-he-shoot-trayvon-martin

 

Here is also the good, the bad and the ugly of Trayvon:http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/school-report-trayvon-martin-found-jewelry-and-burglary-tool

 

 

How is it suspicious activity to be walking home to your dad's house? If Zimmerman is such a stellar neighborhood watchman, why didn't he know that Trayvon was someone who was supposed to be there? Why do NW get to determine who is allowed to walk through a neighborhood ~ and then pursue suspicious individuals with a gun? I'm beginning to dislike the very idea of NW if they are allowed so much power.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

FYI - for those of you hung up on the SYG law, in most states, using deadly force against someone battering you while you are pinned to the ground would be considered justified.

[Joker]

I do not think you understand. This man did not have his gun unholstered. He carries a gun with him like some wear a cellphone. It is his right. He has a concealed weapons permit. If a police man was pursuing someone, would you say that he was pursuing someone with a gun if it was in a holster?

 

Here is an article that tells you the good, the bad and the ugly of Zimmerman. If you have not read it before, please read the whole article. http://www.minnpost.com/christian-science-monitor/2012/03/who-george-zimmerman-and-why-did-he-shoot-trayvon-martin

 

Here is also the good, the bad and the ugly of Trayvon:http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/school-report-trayvon-martin-found-jewelry-and-burglary-tool

 

I couldn't get your second link to work but I find it interesting that the first tries to make excuses for Zimmerman's run in with police and his prior violent behavior. Martin had no such run in with the police prior (as far as I've read), it's only been with his school.

 

As for the rest, Zimmerman was not a trained police officer so I don't care for the comparisons. I think it was just as much Trayvon Martin's right to walk around his father's neigborhood without being shot dead.

 

ETA: I have now read the second link but see zero police involvement. Why can Zimmerman's run in with police be glossed over but Martin's run in with his school be so predominant? If Martin was such a danger, why weren't the police involved? I still ask why a NW can pursue a suspicious individual with a gun and it be ok. I'm not ok with that ~ even with my own NW.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Horton

[LucyStoner]

FYI - for those of you hung up on the SYG law, in most states, using deadly force against someone battering you while you are pinned to the ground would be considered justified.

 

You simply do not know that that is what happened and you are making a huge assumption about how the shooter behaved. Did he get out of his car and say "good evening, how's it going?, have a nice night"? Or did he, right after making a needless 911 call in which he is told to stop following the victim, choose to start a fight? The 911 call makes it sound like he was eager to "catch" a "criminal". The force he used ended a boy's life and was totally needless and pointless.

 

Regardless of what happened first when or how, all we know for a FACT is that the shooter initiated the contact and that he shot an unarmed person to death with a gun that his NW group requests NW NOT carry. Oh and we know that the supposed battering on the ground did not result in injuries that either the police or the shooter felt the need to seek immediate medical attention for. Does that say nothing to you about how over the top shooting someone in this situation might be?

Edited March 27, 2012 by kijipt

[Mrs Mungo]

I do not think you understand. This man did not have his gun unholstered. He carries a gun with him like some wear a cellphone. It is his right. He has a concealed weapons permit. If a police man was pursuing someone, would you say that he was pursuing someone with a gun if it was in a holster?

 

Police officers are *trained observers*. I have done neighborhood watch training. It takes about an hour. The two are not comparable.

 

Here is an article that tells you the good, the bad and the ugly of Zimmerman. If you have not read it before, please read the whole article. http://www.minnpost.com/christian-science-monitor/2012/03/who-george-zimmerman-and-why-did-he-shoot-trayvon-martin

 

Here is also the good, the bad and the ugly of Trayvon:http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/school-report-trayvon-martin-found-jewelry-and-burglary-tool

 

*I* have a jewelry tool (aka: screwdriver for my glasses) in my purse right now! Does that make me suspicious? Over the guy with the criminal assault record? I think not. This is hardly everything one needs to know about the case. The whole truth almost never comes out of criminal cases, especially when one party cannot tell their story.

[Lovin Learnin]

I do not think you understand. This man did not have his gun unholstered. He carries a gun with him like some wear a cellphone. It is his right. He has a concealed weapons permit. If a police man was pursuing someone, would you say that he was pursuing someone with a gun if it was in a holster?

 

Zimmerman was no police officer.

 

Here is an article that tells you the good, the bad and the ugly of Zimmerman. If you have not read it before, please read the whole article. http://www.minnpost.com/christian-science-monitor/2012/03/who-george-zimmerman-and-why-did-he-shoot-trayvon-martin

 

Here is also the good, the bad and the ugly of Trayvon:http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/school-report-trayvon-martin-found-jewelry-and-burglary-tool

 

Why does any of this matter? If he had served time for a previous crime he STILL had the right to walk to a store and back home again without being accosted.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

You simply do not know that that is what happened and you are making a huge assumption about how the shooter behaved. Did he get out of his car and say good evening? Or did he, right after making a needless 911 call in which he is told to stop following the victim choose to start a fight? The 911 call makes it sound like he was eager to "catch" a "criminal". The force he used ended a boy's life and was totally needless and pointless.

 

Regardless of what happened first when or how, all we know for a FACT is that the shooter initiated the contact and that he shot an unarmed person to death with a gun that his NW group requests NW NOT carry. Oh and we know that the supposed battering on the ground did not result in injuries that either the police or the shooter felt the need to se ek immediate medical attention for. Does that say nothing to you about how over the top shooting someone in this situation might be?

 

You are the one making assumptions. There has been no evidence presented that Zimmerman initiated any physical contact. There is no evidence any force was used by Zimmerman until he was assaulted. If Zimmerman was on his back and being battered, then his reaction does not seem OTT. Zimmerman was also carrying that firearm legally, which is a fact that you apparently struggle to comprehend.