elegantlion Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Have you listened to the 911 tape? He sounds like he was running. Being a young, black male is not a crime. This is exactly what I'm saying. This is why it should be left to police to pursue people, NOT private citizens. Zimmerman *put himself* in that situation *without reason*. Martin was the one who had reason to be fearful. Under Florida law, there is a higher burden of proof for Zimmerman to use deadly force in that case *and the concealed carry class tells you that* (as I linked, earlier). No, it doesn't. There are differences. Those differences could be the indicators of who the aggressor was. What I am saying is this: Zimmerman never should have been in that situation. I believe he put himself in that situation. He never should have confronted Martin. He never should have been following him. In my opinion, that makes him morally culpable, if not legally culpable under Florida's current law. Zimmerman was NOT protecting himself by following an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing but walking through the neighborhood, talking on his cell phone. That is my point. Private individuals should not be putting themselves in that situation. :iagree::iagree: Being a young black male wearing a hoodie is not a crime. Certainly, but only one of them was armed, and only one of them is dead. Yes, this. Tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 u know beacuse????? How do you know he lied? See how that game works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 My point is you continually go back to only finding 'evidence' that supports your view, you make few if any comments on evidence that contradicts your conclusions. The girlfriend 'assumes' Martin was the one hit, it could easily have been how Zimmerman stated that Martin knocked him in the nose, if were 'hypothesizing' then if someone knocked me in the nose I would grab the person to try and defend myself, easily an earpiece would be knocked out in that scenario... Why would I bother to present a side that is already being presented? Why not answer why his parents took 3 days to claim him missing? It didn't. There are numerous news stories about Martin's dad calling the police the next day. Martin's propensity for violence and his outlook on black on white violence? His tweets say a lot about his motivations. It is worth pointing out that some of what has come out (like the thug pictures) have been lies. UPDATES: There are images circulating online that are supposedly other pictures of Trayvon Martin. We saw one on Stormfront a racist message board. It was embedded with another picture purporting to be Trayvon that the Miami News Times points out is NOT Trayvon Martin. One conservative website has already apologized for publishing it. (We originally published the entire image found on Stormfront, which included two photos, but we took the second down after finding out it wasn't Trayvon Martin). And now there is also question as to whether the other image is of Trayvon. We have now removed both.) If you don't know, Stormwatch is a neo-nazi racist website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristineW Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'm surprised that very few media outlets are covering how hard it is for prosecutors to overcome a claim of self defense when there is no duty to retreat. In 23 states, including Florida, once the defendant presents some evidence of self defense (a bloody nose, eye witness testimony) then the prosecution has to show BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that the defendant was not acting in self defense. It doesn't matter if what we think happened; the prosecution has to prove their theory beyond a reasonable doubt. Prosecutors don't like taking cases to court that they are going to lose, and I think that based on the facts we have there's definitely room for a lot of doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 They repeatedly called his cell phone that the police did not answer. The family filed a missing person report Feb 27th, which is the next day. Where are you getting 3 days? And the police not making an effort to locate his family with his cellphone is really quite odd. There is a dead young man on a residential street. Try and find who is missing him, regardless of the situation. In most places, they won't take missing person's reports on older teens and adults until a day later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) If you don't know, Stormwatch is a neo-nazi racist website. And anyone who takes information from their website and publishes it on their own site without questioning it and verifying it as factual is racist. You can not look at that page without seeing the agenda. Edited March 28, 2012 by kijipt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 And the police not making an effort to locate his family with his cellphone is really quite odd. There is a dead young man on a residential street. Try and find who is missing him, regardless of the situation. In most places, they won't take missing person's reports on older teens and adults until a day later. This is what is so weird to me--that the police didn't contact the family when they picked up a dead boy on the street. Also, did the girlfriend call his family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 How do you know he lied? See how that game works? No, I don't know if he lied. And I highly doubted you know that he is telling the truth. And I think that is why so many of us have a problem with it. Zimmerman is assumed that he is telling all truth without been investigated. I only know that he is alive, run free. The kid is dead. Zimmerman has a gun, the boy has ice tea. And Zimmerman have at least 60 pounds over the kid. and he is 28 yr old not 82 years old. Things just doesn't make sense. I know a person who is 2/3 of my size and 20 yrs younger won't be able to pin me down that easily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 If you don't know, Stormwatch is a neo-nazi racist website. can't believer people will do that. Wondering who is behind all these Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendi Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 No, I don't know if he lied. And I highly doubted you know that he is telling the truth. And I think that is why so many of us have a problem with it. Zimmerman is assumed that he is telling all truth without been investigated. I only know that he is alive, run free. The kid is dead. Zimmerman has a gun, the boy has ice tea. And Zimmerman have at least 60 pounds over the kid. and he is 28 yr old not 82 years old. Things just doesn't make sense. I know a person who is 2/3 of my size and 20 yrs younger won't be able to pin me down that easily Well, apparently Trayvon was 3-6" taller (I've read different statistics) than Zimmerman. Also, the story is that Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the face, knocking him to the ground, then got on top of him and continued battering him. Once you're on your back on the ground, with someone on top of you, even if they don't weight as much as you do, it's not going to be easy to get them off of you. Of course, no one seems to have witnessed the actual punch, as far as I know, so we don't know this is what happened. Wendi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 No, I don't know if he lied. And I highly doubted you know that he is telling the truth. And I think that is why so many of us have a problem with it. Zimmerman is assumed that he is telling all truth without been investigated. Hence, why I used the word "maybe". The no investigation line is simply false. The investigation continued after that night. The state attorney simply felt there was not enough evidence to prosecute. I only know that he is alive, run free. The kid is dead. Zimmerman has a gun, the boy has ice tea. And Zimmerman have at least 60 pounds over the kid. and he is 28 yr old not 82 years old. Things just doesn't make sense. I know a person who is 2/3 of my size and 20 yrs younger won't be able to pin me down that easily Well...we don't really know what the size difference was. Martin may have been a good bit bigger than first implied by the family attorney and what was reported in the media. Martin was also an athlete, and if what Zimmerman said about being hit in the head is true, anything is then possible. Remember, an eye witness did describe seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman hitting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Hence, why I used the word "maybe".The no investigation line is simply false. The investigation continued after that night. The state attorney simply felt there was not enough evidence to prosecute. They also say that the police didn't follow the standard practice. No drug testing,,,, nothing. The fact they didn't even try to contact the family and not return Martin's Father's call make you wonder that they are trying to cover it up. And that is exactly why so many people are pissed. the state attorny "simply" felt there is not enough evidence even they didn't do any investigation. They didn't know Z was not official neighbor watch, They didn't know Z had record been arrested. I supposed they know Z has a retired judge daddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Did no one notice the link I posted earlier that says the DOJ has a tape of a 911 call made by Trayvon? That speaks volumes to me about whether Trayvon was the aggressor. Criminals rarely call 911 for help. Do you know whether any information about the content has been released? I commented to my dh a few days ago that (based on what we know), the only thing Trayvon could have done better was to call 911, but he's 17 yo and maybe he just didn't think of it. Apparently he did call 911, and we know from Z's 911 call and the gf's account that he tried to get away. He did the right things and still ended up dead. It makes me so mad that people are defending Z's actions. Being devastated about what happened does not absolve him of criminal responsibility. ETA: I just read the other posts saying that the info hasn't been corroborated by other sources yet. Edited March 28, 2012 by LizzyBee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Small question: Was Zimmerman actually a part of the neighborhood watch? I am getting conflicting information on that... Some articles say that he was a "neighborhood watch captain," and others imply that he was not officially part of the neighborhood watch. Thanks for any clarification on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Small question: Was Zimmerman actually a part of the neighborhood watch? I am getting conflicting information on that... Some articles say that he was a "neighborhood watch captain," and others imply that he was not officially part of the neighborhood watch. Thanks for any clarification on this. Several of the articles I've read call him a self appointed NW captain. I did read one article that said he worked with the Sanford police to set up the NW program, but that it was not part of the national NW program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 The biggest question here is if you were followed, would you attack your follower? Not unless they attacked first. As stated before you have a young man who has been in trouble in the past, whose tweets are beyond vulgar, and whose twitter name is referred to as black on white aggression...Zimmerman just picked the wrong person to follow. The tweets people are citing as "proof" that he's a thug are quotes from rap music, not criminal admissions. His twitter handle was "no_limit_nigga", which uses ugly slang that is common among teenage African-Americans but makes no reference whatsoever to "black on white aggression." (From here.) His "troubled past" basically boils down to marijuana use. I smoked marijuana plenty of times in my youth. Should you shoot me? (Yes, there was also the alleged incident of the jewelery in his backpack, which was apparently so serious that the school never bothered to notify the police or the Martin family.) Why not answer why his parents took 3 days to claim him missing? Martin's propensity for violence and his outlook on black on white violence? His tweets say a lot about his motivations. You have yet to provide evidence for any of these claims. Where is it? Well, apparently Trayvon was 3-6" taller (I've read different statistics) than Zimmerman. Also, the story is that Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the face, knocking him to the ground, then got on top of him and continued battering him. Once you're on your back on the ground, with someone on top of you, even if they don't weight as much as you do, it's not going to be easy to get them off of you. The scenario as you describe it raises a very strong question in my mind: if that was the situation - Trayvon on top of Zimmerman and grappling with him - then how could Zimmerman shoot him without winding up soaked with blood? Seriously: how? How do you shoot someone who's on top of you without any of the blood getting on you? The laws of physics would seem to rule it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Yes, Zimmerman's arrest was so serious that charges were dropped. Charges were dropped? Or he pled to a lesser charge? I'm almost positive I read the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 They also say that the police didn't follow the standard practice. No drug testing,,,, nothing. The fact they didn't even try to contact the family and not return Martin's Father's call make you wonder that they are trying to cover it up. And that is exactly why so many people are pissed. the state attorny "simply" felt there is not enough evidence even they didn't do any investigation. They didn't know Z was not official neighbor watch, They didn't know Z had record been arrested. I supposed they know Z has a retired judge daddy Except the lead investigator thought a manslaughter charge was warranted, and continued to push for one for two weeks. The person responsible for actuall proving the case disagreed. The cover up theory doesn't wash real well, and basing it all on a retired magistrate father is a bit much. Not official neighborhood watch? Not relevant. Previous minor arrests with no convictions? Not relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Charges were dropped? Or he pled to a lesser charge? I'm almost positive I read the latter. Charges were dropped to a pretrial diversion program. Zimmerman has an arrest but no convictions on his record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Small question: Was Zimmerman actually a part of the neighborhood watch? I am getting conflicting information on that... Some articles say that he was a "neighborhood watch captain," and others imply that he was not officially part of the neighborhood watch. Thanks for any clarification on this. He volunteered with the department to start a NW group. It is unclear that anyone else was actively involved in his group and it was not an official NW program. He was not following national NW or police protocol for NW because he was carrying a gun and pursuing a "suspect." Both are not advised for NW volunteers. The fact that he was following a kid who he had observed doing nothing illegal and has a long record of calling the cops and reporting black children as young as 7-9 as "suspicious" casts a lot of doubts in my mind as to what the heck he thought required him or authorized him to follow and question his "suspect". Edited March 28, 2012 by kijipt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Except the lead investigator thought a manslaughter charge was warranted, and continued to push for one for two weeks. The person responsible for actuall proving the case disagreed. The cover up theory doesn't wash real well, and basing it all on a retired magistrate father is a bit much. Not official neighborhood watch? Not relevant. Previous minor arrests with no convictions? Not relevant. It is relevant that it isn't an official neighborhood watch. Neighborhood watch programs have training and procedures that specifically say NOT to do what Zimmerman did. It is YOUR opinion that it isn't relevant but at the end of the day even if he doesn't end up in prison his actions were still stupid and resulted in the death of a child. If you exclude the shooting, and my husband did what Zimmerman did that night I would be calling our doctor to discuss erratic behavior and he would be visiting with a psychiatrist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) I commented to my dh a few days ago that (based on what we know), the only thing Trayvon could have done better was to call 911, but he's 17 yo and maybe he just didn't think of it. Apparently he did call 911, and we know from Z's 911 call and the gf's account that he tried to get away. He did the right things and still ended up dead. It makes me so mad that people are defending Z's actions. Being devastated about what happened does not absolve him of criminal responsibility. Yes. It is so sad, so tragic. Especially if that 911 call is corroborated (I saw your edit, too, about that not being corroborated). I have thought something similar, that a 17 year old, walking at night, might not have thought to call 911. I myself might not have thought of it - and I am far from 17. And, thanks for the info about the NW. I do think it's a part of this, as he is being reported over and over as "NW" ... NW does have standards and training. Edited March 28, 2012 by Spryte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 It is relevant that it isn't an official neighborhood watch. Neighborhood watch programs have training and procedures that specifically say NOT to do what Zimmerman did. And? There is no disputing that he followed Martin. It doesn't really matter what protocol it goes against. If Zimmerman's version of events is true, then he was within his rights to defend himself. It is YOUR opinion that it isn't relevant but at the end of the day even if he doesn't end up in prison his actions were still stupid and resulted in the death of a child. Your point? And again, if his version is true, Martin has a fair amount of blame in his own death. If you exclude the shooting, and my husband did what Zimmerman did that night I would be calling our doctor to discuss erratic behavior and he would be visiting with a psychiatrist. Your point? What does what you claim you would do have anything to do with whether or not Zimmerman is guilty of a crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Not official neighborhood watch? Not relevant.Previous minor arrests with no convictions? Not relevant. I would argue that both points are at least somewhat more relevant than whether the teenaged victim had been suspended from school for a non-violent behavior infraction. This whole, "Well, that kid might have smoked pot and might possibly have thrown the first punch, so it's his own fault he's dead" reminds me chillingly of cases in which women have been told they deserved to be raped because they wore a low-cut dress. Blaming the victim is appalling. And again, if his version is true, Martin has a fair amount of blame in his own death. I have to stop now. I can no longer engage in this discussion and maintain my faith in people. Edited March 28, 2012 by Jenny in Florida Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Charges were dropped? Or he pled to a lesser charge? I'm almost positive I read the latter. Despite was CR insists, diversion means you are accepting fault/guilt like you do in a plea. In exchange for complying with the diversion program- usually classes and/or community service, your charges are dropped but may be refiled if you are rearrested before completing diversion or for failing to comply with the requirements for diversion. It does mean that he does not have a conviction but it is not like dropping the charges completely or dropping them for lack of evidence. Diversion is used to save a lot of money and also to offer first time offenders an alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I would argue that both points are at least somewhat more relevant than whether the teenaged victim had been suspended from school for a non-violent behavior infraction. This whole, "Well, that kid might have smoked pot and might possibly have thrown the first punch, so it's his own fault he's dead" reminds me chillingly of cases in which women have been told they deserved to be raped because they wore a low-cut dress. Blaming the victim is appalling. Well, I have not engaged in that, so spare me the lecture. I did point out that when the attorney representing the Martin family repeatedly painted Martin as squeaky clean, then they should have expected anything illicit behaviors he was involved in to come to light. Zimmerman's credit history certainly isn't relevant but it was brought out immediately when the media storm hit. The point you are 100% wrong about is whether or not Martin threw the first punch. That is certainly relevant, and to try and include that within the rape analogy makes no sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Despite was CR insists, diversion means you are accepting fault/guilt like you do in a plea. In exchange for complying with the diversion program- usually classes and/or community service, your charges are dropped but may be refiled if you are rearrested before completing diversion or for failing to comply with the requirements for diversion. It does mean that he does not have a conviction but it is not like dropping the charges completely or dropping them for lack of evidence. Diversion is used to save a lot of money and also to offer first time offenders an alternative. Did Zimmerman ever attend trial on those charges? Does he have a conviction? The charges were dropped. Had they been more serious, he would have not been eligible for the diversion program, and he would have went to trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Your point? Maybe the point is that there is a dead child here? Do you have children? Have you yourself ever been followed and suspected based on your appearance? Do you have relatives who have been followed and suspected based on their appearance? I have a brother and two nephews who have faced or will face (one is merely age 6 now) frequent fear and suspicion on sight based on their gender and skin color. This case touches a nerve for a reason and the "facts" presented by the shooter deserve a full investigation. Edited March 28, 2012 by kijipt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Maybe the point is that there is a dead child here? A child who MAY have engaged in conduct that included beating another person. Do you have children? Yes. Have you yourself ever been followed and suspected based on your appearance? Yes. Do you have relatives who have been followed and suspected based on their appearance? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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