First-time obedience, spanking, & other parenting issues...

Aubrey · June 14, 2008

First, let me say that this is not coming from frustration, but more of a reflective musing.

Before having kids, getting married, etc., I was a die-hard advocate of spanking. While pg w/ #1, I began to question this. I've never found arguments that convince *me* on either side. Dh & I agreed to use spankings only for life-&-death situations. For ex: if a child unbuckles while driving, we pull over, get the kid out, explain the problem, & spank. Put them back.

Our thinking was that if spankings were that rare, they'd be more effective, & in situations like that, we want to get the kid's attention.

However, like many things, we tend to overstep our own boundaries, kwim? Over the years, we've used spankings for other infractions--playing during nap time, disobedience, etc. Sometimes we see that our parenting has gotten pretty lax, & we take some time to step back & hit the reset button. Generally, during these times, we've noticed either an attitude problem w/ the dc or w/ ourselves, & the first thing we do is omit spankings completely for, say 1-2 weeks. This has *always* helped us to refocus our attention on our dc (as opposed to just on consequences, etc.).

So, that said, dh has also mentioned in the last yr or 2 that he feels that ds7 is too old for spankings. Actually, he said this when ds was 5, & I was hesitant. By now, though, I totally agree. He's got a great heart, & I feel like we dishonor that when we react to his misbehavior as if it were the rule instead of the exception, kwim? Dd5 seems on the cusp of the same phase, despite our apparent parenting confusion.

For the following question, it's important that you all know that we've got generally GREAT kids & that we've never been 100% on board w/ spankings, although we've used them, sometimes well, sometimes badly.

Lately...as in the last mo or more?...the dc have been obeying less & less well. We have to tell them to do something 3+ times before they do it. They whine, argue, etc. about. every. thing. Dh & I are not handling this well. At all. And we've just recently realized this. If you'll be gentle, I'll admit...we've been yelling a lot. We've been threatening a lot. Dumb stuff that we know not to do. I think it's partly that they don't usually need so much prodding, & we're hesitant to give it. Partly because we're not sure how.

So dh & I talked about this recently. He suggested that we start spanking when the dc don't obey the first time. His argument is that it's better than the threats we're making & that while that would equal a lot of spankings at first, those would taper off. This approach would be comforting to the dc, ultimately, because they wouldn't have to wonder what we'd come up w/ next.

I've read all of that in parenting books. Makes sense to me. A lot of sense. But...it doesn't sit right. I don't like the idea of giving ourselves such a free license w/ such a...questionable disciplinary practice. Kwim? We both have a little bit of a temper--him barely, me quite a bit. But he says that we will actually be LESS angry because we won't have to sit & fret about what to do every time they disobey, & that ultimately, they'll disobey less.

I really do see his point, but I'm not ready to buy into it. For child x? Yeah, maybe. In theory, fine. But I know my kids. I know what their spirits are worth to me, in tact. I don't want to break that or put distance between us. I'm not saying spankings do that, I'm just saying I want to be really sure this is the best thing before risking that. Kwim?

Anyway, we've agreed to pray about it & talk some more later. Meanwhile, we're having the same problem, & being pg, it's driving me extra nuts. So I'm trying something today.

Based on my theory that we've taught our dc to obey out of love, not fear, & based on my theory that they're pretty good & actually *want* to make the right choices most of the time but just get distracted, self-centered (in a natural kid way), etc., I had this idea:

I cut a piece of yarn for a necklace & hung it around ds's neck. I explained that it was an experiment to help him remember to obey the first time, etc. And then I told him, each time I have to tell him to do something after the first time, I'm going to hang a paperclip on his necklace, so that we can actually *see* the problem--both of us. I'm thinking that maybe helping HIM to see it will make it...kind-of self-correcting?

Anyway, this is hugely long, & I'm sorry. I'd love *gentle* thoughts that go either way. Like I said, we're at the philosophical stages, no really desperate major problems, just trying to improve what we're doing.

Kathy in MD · June 14, 2008

First, let me say that this is not coming from frustration, but more of a reflective musing.

Before having kids, getting married, etc., I was a die-hard advocate of spanking. While pg w/ #1, I began to question this. I've never found arguments that convince *me* on either side. Dh & I agreed to use spankings only for life-&-death situations. For ex: if a child unbuckles while driving, we pull over, get the kid out, explain the problem, & spank. Put them back.

Our thinking was that if spankings were that rare, they'd be more effective, & in situations like that, we want to get the kid's attention.

However, like many things, we tend to overstep our own boundaries, kwim? Over the years, we've used spankings for other infractions--playing during nap time, disobedience, etc. Sometimes we see that our parenting has gotten pretty lax, & we take some time to step back & hit the reset button. Generally, during these times, we've noticed either an attitude problem w/ the dc or w/ ourselves, & the first thing we do is omit spankings completely for, say 1-2 weeks. This has *always* helped us to refocus our attention on our dc (as opposed to just on consequences, etc.).

So, that said, dh has also mentioned in the last yr or 2 that he feels that ds7 is too old for spankings. Actually, he said this when ds was 5, & I was hesitant. By now, though, I totally agree. He's got a great heart, & I feel like we dishonor that when we react to his misbehavior as if it were the rule instead of the exception, kwim? Dd5 seems on the cusp of the same phase, despite our apparent parenting confusion.

For the following question, it's important that you all know that we've got generally GREAT kids & that we've never been 100% on board w/ spankings, although we've used them, sometimes well, sometimes badly.

Lately...as in the last mo or more?...the dc have been obeying less & less well. We have to tell them to do something 3+ times before they do it. They whine, argue, etc. about. every. thing. Dh & I are not handling this well. At all. And we've just recently realized this. If you'll be gentle, I'll admit...we've been yelling a lot. We've been threatening a lot. Dumb stuff that we know not to do. I think it's partly that they don't usually need so much prodding, & we're hesitant to give it. Partly because we're not sure how.

So dh & I talked about this recently. He suggested that we start spanking when the dc don't obey the first time. His argument is that it's better than the threats we're making & that while that would equal a lot of spankings at first, those would taper off. This approach would be comforting to the dc, ultimately, because they wouldn't have to wonder what we'd come up w/ next.

I've read all of that in parenting books. Makes sense to me. A lot of sense. But...it doesn't sit right. I don't like the idea of giving ourselves such a free license w/ such a...questionable disciplinary practice. Kwim? We both have a little bit of a temper--him barely, me quite a bit. But he says that we will actually be LESS angry because we won't have to sit & fret about what to do every time they disobey, & that ultimately, they'll disobey less.

I really do see his point, but I'm not ready to buy into it. For child x? Yeah, maybe. In theory, fine. But I know my kids. I know what their spirits are worth to me, in tact. I don't want to break that or put distance between us. I'm not saying spankings do that, I'm just saying I want to be really sure this is the best thing before risking that. Kwim?

Anyway, we've agreed to pray about it & talk some more later. Meanwhile, we're having the same problem, & being pg, it's driving me extra nuts. So I'm trying something today.

Based on my theory that we've taught our dc to obey out of love, not fear, & based on my theory that they're pretty good & actually *want* to make the right choices most of the time but just get distracted, self-centered (in a natural kid way), etc., I had this idea:

I cut a piece of yarn for a necklace & hung it around ds's neck. I explained that it was an experiment to help him remember to obey the first time, etc. And then I told him, each time I have to tell him to do something after the first time, I'm going to hang a paperclip on his necklace, so that we can actually *see* the problem--both of us. I'm thinking that maybe helping HIM to see it will make it...kind-of self-correcting?

Anyway, this is hugely long, & I'm sorry. I'd love *gentle* thoughts that go either way. Like I said, we're at the philosophical stages, no really desperate major problems, just trying to improve what we're doing.

I'll give you a different perspective on instant obedience. One of my grandmothers (A) wanted and demanded instant obedience. The other's (B) philosophy was that they were children and it wasn't natural to for them to immediately obey, at least all the time. Guess which one raised more stable and loving adults?

There was more to Grandma B's childrearing philosophy than accepting that children DON'T immediately obey, but it's a reflection of what her overall philosophy was. My mother told me shortly before she died, that there was nothing worse than disappointing her mother.

Seven is one of those transitional phases that is difficult on both the parent and child. Can you get extra excersise or sleep or somthing to help you deal with your frustration during this trying time? Or maybe more more one-on-one time with the biggest "offenders" would help. I just know that I wish I had been more like Grandma "B" than "A'

Miss Peregrine · June 14, 2008

What really pushed me to believe that spanking wasn't for me was realizing that spanking them was a way for them to "pay" for their crimes. I don't know if you are Christian or not so disregard if you are not::) God does not make me pay for my sins so how can I ask my children to? Of course, they are expected to make things right and deal with the consequences, as am I. So my focus became how to "teach" rather than "punish" as I believe God does with us.

{{{{HUGS}}}} It is hard, I know.

Night Elf · June 14, 2008

My parenting style seems vastly different from most other people that talk about parenting on this board. So with that disclaimer, here is my point of view.

What is your ultimate goal of 1st time obedience? In other words, are you just aiming for getting your kids to obey because it seems the right thing to do? Or because others do it? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious.

We don't "do" spanking or 1st time obedience in our home. I can't think of a single instance in our home that has ever required such a strong parenting technique. Whether it's cleaning a bedroom, taking a bath, eating dinner, cleaning up toys, or putting away laundry, I don't see the point of the 1st time concept.

I have a bumper sticker on my car that says Children Learn Respect By Example, and that truly sums up my parenting style. My kids very rarely flat out refuse to do something and when they do, it's a huge red flag that symbolizes a major problem. And yet I've never had serious problems with getting the kids to help out. I very rarely flat out refuse to do things for them. When they ask for my help, I do my best to respond with a smile and kind word and they've just followed through on that. My sister, OTOH, is more of an authoritative type person who just commands and demands. Her kids have little respect for her or for anyone else. I don't like being around my neice much because she's just plain mean and snarky. My sister blames it on my neice's age. That excuse wore out a long time ago.

I do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I don't want someone barking orders at me or even putting me on a schedule and expecting me to do things without my input. I'll admit I'm the type of person that gets taken advantage of alot, but I just won't compromise my principles to be top dog.

If there are specific things that your kids are doing or not doing that you would like to discuss, I'm sure many of us would have lots of different ideas for you. :)

Pam "SFSOM" in TN · June 14, 2008

Lately...as in the last mo or more?...the dc have been obeying less & less well. We have to tell them to do something 3+ times before they do it. They whine, argue, etc. about. every. thing.

This jumped out at me. You simply can't do that, or they will wait til you yell to actually obey. You can spank the first time, you can get up and lead them to obedience, you can impose penalties starting the first time. But if you want them to listen to you the first time you speak -- and I had to teach my children to do that, because my tendency is toward abuse -- then you cannot repeat your command more than once.

As Joanne would (and, I expect, will) say, get off your butt. Say it, expect it, enforce it. Whining has to have penalties. Arguing, ditto. Teach them their "lines." "No, sweetie, your answer is not, 'But MOooooom, I don't WANT to pick up my legos.' Your line is, 'Yes, Mom.' What's your line? Right. This is your five minute warning. When the timer goes off, what are you going to do? Right. I'll come back and check to make sure you were listening."

(I'm not saying you have to spank, though. In fact, I don't think you have to. But don't do it as a last resort or to get them into shape. Discipline yourSELF to get up and follow through however you plan to do so, then you can more effectively expect them to be disciplined.)

Final word: They're little and they will function better with clear boundaries and knowledge of what you expect and when. Do the work of making sure you have their attention, making sure they *answer* you when you tell them to do something, and allow a certain amount of appeal once they agree to obey. ("Feed the dog. Yes, mom. Mom, is it ok if I finish this chapter before I get up? I have two pages left.")

Sue G in PA · June 14, 2008

Aubrey, we've been questioning the same things. I have a big temper, dh does, too, but not so "volatile", if you will. Spanking just plain doesn't work for most of my kids, Makes them more angry and stubborn. I came across this website, on a recommendation from a friend on another forum (MFW), about Grace Based Parenting. It's very interesting. Some of it I agree w/, some I don't. But, the general jist of it I like. Here is the site:

http://www.aolff.com

It is Christian in nature. Again, I'm not arguing for or against this method of parenting, just mentioning the site for those who are interested!

Jen500 · June 14, 2008

My kids very rarely flat out refuse to do something and when they do, it's a huge red flag that symbolizes a major problem.

:iagree:

My kids are also very sensitive. I can't imagine spanking them. I don't take them hitting each other lightly-that's a time out in our house. We talk a lot here, and my kids are far from perfect but compared to other kids I know, they are better behaved and more trustworthy.

dragons in the flower bed · June 14, 2008

Often, if I stop and listen to my inner thoughts when I'm tempted to scream, punish or hit, I'm feeling something like, I just want all of this constant guidance to be over already! It's been seven years! Enough! Trust me for once in your life! I want to do something so intensely dramatic that the kids will never fail to listen to me ever again. If I could just accomplish that one thing, my life would be so much easier. Free of the constant interruptions! Oh to be free again!

Unfortunately, the only actions I can think of that would make such a big, immediate difference would be, IMO, abusive. So I am stuck with doing little actions consistently and counting on the power of time to build them up into a big enough force to stop the problem. Every day, every hour it often feels, one of the four kids fails to do what I just explained to them that they had to do, and I'm forced to drop everything I'm already doing to go make them do it.

Around this time last year, I read a thread on the old boards about how hard seven is. Someone else was asking for advice, but the Hive's reaction sure was predictive of our year. They said that if the OP just hung in there and was consistent, she'd end the year with a responsible, helpful, mature and delightful child. That has turned out to be true. Just short of his eighth birthday, my kiddo is a contributing member of the household.

Hang in there, and keep applying your creativity. It sounds like you're headed in the right direction.

Anne/Ankara · June 14, 2008

I just wanted to add my two cents against spanking-- it just goes against everything I think we should teach our children about getting along with each other, finding a way to communicate effectively, modeling appropriate non-violent behavior.

Barb_ · June 14, 2008

Seven is one of those transitional phases that is difficult on both the parent and child.

And since siblings are in a large sense, one's first peers, the behavior of an older sibling will rub off on the younger ones. Or as my friend Darlene used to say, "sh*t rolls downhill." Focus more on the older's behavior and the younger one will come in line too.

Barb

Aubrey · June 14, 2008

This jumped out at me. You simply can't do that, or they will wait til you yell to actually obey. You can spank the first time, you can get up and lead them to obedience, you can impose penalties starting the first time. But if you want them to listen to you the first time you speak -- and I had to teach my children to do that, because my tendency is toward abuse -- then you cannot repeat your command more than once.

As Joanne would (and, I expect, will) say, get off your butt. Say it, expect it, enforce it. Whining has to have penalties. Arguing, ditto. Teach them their "lines." "No, sweetie, your answer is not, 'But MOooooom, I don't WANT to pick up my legos.' Your line is, 'Yes, Mom.' What's your line? Right. This is your five minute warning. When the timer goes off, what are you going to do? Right. I'll come back and check to make sure you were listening."

(I'm not saying you have to spank, though. In fact, I don't think you have to. But don't do it as a last resort or to get them into shape. Discipline yourSELF to get up and follow through however you plan to do so, then you can more effectively expect them to be disciplined.)

Final word: They're little and they will function better with clear boundaries and knowledge of what you expect and when. Do the work of making sure you have their attention, making sure they *answer* you when you tell them to do something, and allow a certain amount of appeal once they agree to obey. ("Feed the dog. Yes, mom. Mom, is it ok if I finish this chapter before I get up? I have two pages left.")

We've taught them to answer w/ "Yes, ma'am," etc. We're just doing a lot more reminding lately, kwim? And the appeal thing is really important, I agree. We only stipulate that they not whine, beg, argue. If I've heard your request & said no, don't say, "Pleeeeeeeeeeeeaaase?????" Kwim?

I know, for ex, that they do better w/ smaller chunks assigned, i.e., instead of saying, "Go clean your room," I might say, "Go pick up the legos," or "Go pick up 10 things & come right back."

The problem is that lately...they've got no follow-through. Could be the weather, their ages, coming baby. I don't know. But it's gotten to be too much, & dh & I don't have enough of a plan. I mean, what DO you do once you "get off your behind"?

But the necklace thing--it's been maybe 3 hrs? Ds has been doing chores & some spelling, & he hasn't gotten a single paperclip. He's SO proud. It was the first thing he showed dh when dh came in fr work.

Even if it's just for today, I'll take it. I'm crossing my fingers that I'm on the right path, though.

Mom2legomaniacs · June 14, 2008

I don't know if you do this or not, but talk, talk, talk. Not while it is happening, before. For example, when I want my kids to react quickly, I tell them that the reason that is important is that it could be a very dangerous situation I don't have time to explain why in the moment, but can do so afterwards. That is one reason why it is vital they react quickly.

I also try very hard to give them respect of time to break away from whatever they are doing. I would be ticked if someone yanked this computer away from me with no warning and said to get moving now.

It takes a lot of conversation. Telling them what you expect and why. Also, I have found that kids need very specific instructions. Like, go clean the toy room, doesn't do well. However, I can say, go put all the balls in the bucket. Okay, now go put the books on the shelf. Now put the dirty clothes in the hamper. It is a process that they need broken down so they are much more likely to succeed. I try to set them up for success otherwise it's a big mistake (and my fault!). It helps if I am doing something similar in the same room as they are to help keep on track as well.

It takes constant interaction. I don't expect perfection. They do lose track sometimes. Overall, they behave well and help. And they do so much better if I am calm and patient than if I am torqued!

Consistency, following through, have the consequences relate to the actions, talking before after during, and more. My kids are much more likely to do things if I tell them why I want things done a certain way. Less resentment, things make sense to them, and they comply because they have the reasons given to them. I don't expect first time obedience all the time. They are kids, I try to give them grace. I screw up and am forgiven, they should be too.

If one of ours is consistently behaving in a way that is not the norm, we try to find the root cause rather than react with anger or annoyance. Is he having trouble with something. Is he getting sick? What seems to trigger the behavior? Is he worried, stressed, tired? Often times there is something going on under the surface. Take me, for example. If I am really crabby, don't hit me, I might have pms! Maybe some extra understanding might calm me down.

Aubrey · June 14, 2008

And since siblings are in a large sense, one's first peers, the behavior of an older sibling will rub off on the younger ones. Or as my friend Darlene used to say, "sh*t rolls downhill." Focus more on the older's behavior and the younger one will come in line too.

Barb

Man, I hope so. I suspect the behavior's really coming from the younger. She's a little more creative, sneaky, etc. When she was only 3, she confided in me how she "tricked" ds5 into playing her favorite games. LOL

Anyway, they're both really pretty sweet most of the time. Dd5 picked out 2 of her toys & wrapped them up for dh & me for our anniv the other day. She used grocery bags & was SO PROUD. Dh & I oohed & ahhed over a little corn doll & a soccer trophy, & then asked if she had a good place in her room where we could keep them.

She said no. They came from her "delicate shelf" which was "rather full." And she can't say her r's very well, so she sounds British. Her shelf is "rathah full."

Aubrey · June 14, 2008

I don't know if you do this or not, but talk, talk, talk. Not while it is happening, before. For example, when I want my kids to react quickly, I tell them that the reason that is important is that it could be a very dangerous situation I don't have time to explain why in the moment, but can do so afterwards. That is one reason why it is vital they react quickly.

I also try very hard to give them respect of time to break away from whatever they are doing. I would be ticked if someone yanked this computer away from me with no warning and said to get moving now.

It takes a lot of conversation. Telling them what you expect and why. Also, I have found that kids need very specific instructions. Like, go clean the toy room, doesn't do well. However, I can say, go put all the balls in the bucket. Okay, now go put the books on the shelf. Now put the dirty clothes in the hamper. It is a process that they need broken down so they are much more likely to succeed. I try to set them up for success otherwise it's a big mistake (and my fault!). It helps if I am doing something similar in the same room as they are to help keep on track as well.

It takes constant interaction. I don't expect perfection. They do lose track sometimes. Overall, they behave well and help. And they do so much better if I am calm and patient than if I am torqued!

Consistency, following through, have the consequences relate to the actions, talking before after during, and more. My kids are much more likely to do things if I tell them why I want things done a certain way. Less resentment, things make sense to them, and they comply because they have the reasons given to them. I don't expect first time obedience all the time. They are kids, I try to give them grace. I screw up and am forgiven, they should be too.

If one of ours is consistently behaving in a way that is not the norm, we try to find the root cause rather than react with anger or annoyance. Is he having trouble with something. Is he getting sick? What seems to trigger the behavior? Is he worried, stressed, tired? Often times there is something going on under the surface. Take me, for example. If I am really crabby, don't hit me, I might have pms! Maybe some extra understanding might calm me down.

Yeah, you're right. I've been really tired & irritable lately. I bet it's just rubbed off on them.

Mom2legomaniacs · June 14, 2008

Yeah, you're right. I've been really tired & irritable lately. I bet it's just rubbed off on them.

You know, when I am grumpy, they definitely respond in kind sometimes. Especially when they were younger. My mood would show up in them and it irritated the fire out of me!:lol: The weather, the heat, changes in their home life (the baby coming), all can affect.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I think you need some TLC and lots of hugs (well, cold air conditioning would be even better, huh):chillpill: (not for the pill part , but to give you a cool breeze!)

Aubrey · June 14, 2008

What is your ultimate goal of 1st time obedience? In other words, are you just aiming for getting your kids to obey because it seems the right thing to do? Or because others do it? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious.

First, I'm not equating first time obedience w/ spanking. I'm not sure whether that was clear in my OP or not.

As far as *why* to require fto...well...imagine if you had to ask somebody in your life...an employee or babysitter or UPS guy to do something 3+ times before they cooperated? I mean, w/in reason, you know?

W/ the kids, it's also annoying. It's just not practical or reasonable for me to have to tell them to close the door over. and. over. again. Kwim?

Now, I know that can be carried to an authoritarian level, but that's really not what I'm talking about. We've just fallen into a rut of nagging, repeating, *begging* our dc to do basic stuff. It just seems to me that for a family to function well, there are certain levels of obedience/cooperation we need from our dc, & it's our responsibility to teach them that.

Does that make sense?

Joanne · June 14, 2008

I'm against spanking. More accurately, though, I'm against the *focus* on spanking (or the focus on not spanking).

If you spank frequently, use it as your primary discipline tool or use other punishment often, I think the quality of parenting is compromised. If your discipline approach is characterized by mostly "not spanking" (and, as a positive discipline teacher and advocate, I've meet plenty of those), your parenting is compromised.

Good parenting has many similar qualities and parents can spank (infrequently) or not spank at all and be good parents.

Talking about spanking obscures the real issues involved in evaluating parenting.

Let's not talk about spanking.

Aubrey · June 14, 2008

I'm against spanking. More accurately, though, I'm against the *focus* on spanking (or the focus on not spanking).

If I'm understanding you right, I think this is kind-of what I was trying to tell dh when he suggested the spanking approach. It feels like a cop-out, for this situation.

LynnG in Arizona · June 14, 2008

Aubrey, thanks for posting this. I've been mulling some of the same issues over.

Mama Lynx · June 15, 2008

Aubrey,

Your kids are *young*. Really young! They are all still at the age where the follow through must come from YOU. Joanne's GOYB parenting hits the nail on the head.

You're tired, and cranky, and about to have a baby. The kids know that you're tired, and cranky, and that a new sibling is about to pop into their lives. There's a great deal of stress running around your house. I've got to think that the added stress of stricter rules with more hitting isn't really going to have the nurturing result you want.

You may be too tired and pregnant to do this well, at just this moment. But when you have the energy: you tell the child once, then you get up and take him/her by the hand to do it. That way you do not leave the option for disobedience, or for ignoring you. That way you remain calm, and in control. That way you teach them that when you talk, they obey, and there is no other option. Not "do it or get a spanking," but just "do it."

Frankly, I first started using Joanne's advice when I was far into my 3rd pregnancy - a horrible pregnancy in which I was pretty ill. Most of the time I was too tired to get up and lead the kids to obey, so there was still lots of running rampant, ignoring Mom, and much yelling. But it was all I could do. Later, when I could do more, it got better. It is up to you.

Something to think about: When your children ask you, respectfully, to do something for them, do they have to ask you more than once? It's not the same thing, but when I realize that my kids are slipping in doing what I ask them, I'm often ignoring their requests and needs more than I ought. (You know, when Mom's at the computer and the child has asked for Cheerios six times ;))

I think that in this situation, spanking *is* a cop-out. And, I think that a large change to your parenting style this late into a pregnancy is not necessarily the best thing for family dynamics.

HappyGrace · June 15, 2008

I was having a nightmare year with dd7! I heard incidental info from here and all over, including even Waldorf philosophy, that around 7 there is a shift in behavior. Now I have an amazing and helpful, darling 8yo who barely gives me a minute of grief! So it will end.

I am Christian, and have struggled mightily with the same things you mentioned. I tend to go too far to the punitive end of the spectrum and really have worked hard to change my ways and be more flexible. We do expect first-time obedience, no whining or back talk. But I had to learn to be more balanced in my approach.

Some things that worked:

1. Pick one thing at a time to work on. A df told me that if your dh picked at you to try to change ALL your faults at one time, how frustrated would you be, and resentful, and discouraged? Just pick ONE thing.

2.I had to be more consistent. Once I started to give a consequence EVERY time, not just when it was convenient for me, things started to change so fast it was unbelievable. We also have transitioned over to mainly time-outs with dd8 and ds5, for various reasons, many of the same ones you mentioned about spanking. The whining almost totally stopped, quickly, when I became consistent.

3. Yet at the same time, I changed my approach. I was just businesslike about it rather than letting myself be drawn in emotionally. Just like a policeman is when he gives you a ticket for speeding. You and he BOTH know you earned it, and that you're expected to pay the consequence. No ifs, ands, or buts. Someone else here mentioned about how Christ already took our punishment, and I did struggle for awhile at one point with how that concept applies disciplining my children, but this analogy with the policeman helped me over that hurdle. And it is true that while Jesus did take our punishment, he does not take away the consequences that may occur when we sin.

4. And this part was the key: LOTS of praise when they did right. I mean, I noticed every single little thing, especially as I started being more consistent with consequences. And I meant what I was saying.

Plus I actively tried to spend more fun time together. I'm still working on this, since I'm very cerebral and live totally inside my head, but I made a real effort.

I was also especially careful to name specific character traits I wanted to see-like if ds did even a little thing where he worked hard, I'd say, "You know, I'm really noticing what a hard worker you are...you know, Grandpa Jim is a hard worker, and he will really be happy next time we see him to see how you've grown to be so diligent...blah, blah, blah." It seems silly, but after a few weeks of that, he actually sees himself as a hard worker, and says he's a hard worker, and does work hard! He is immaculate about his room now too, just from me saying once or twice when his room looked really good, "I see you're a boy who loves to keep his room clean..."

5. I really got to a point that I just realized that the relationships were the most important thing and had to back burner some stuff, quit some activities, and make some personal changes to make the relationships the priority and to be able to focus on making the above needed changes. I made it my number one priority for quite awhile, and I'm so glad I did; now it's easier, just pretty much maintaining.

FAR from perfect here still, but just wanted to mention a couple things that helped here. I can so sympathize with the trying to figure out how to discipline, and the questioning yourself constantly. There are so many different approaches. ((Aubrey))

Pamela H in Texas · June 15, 2008

Lately...as in the last mo or more?...the dc have been obeying less & less well. We have to tell them to do something 3+ times before they do it. They whine, argue, etc. about. every. thing. Dh & I are not handling rythis well. At all. And we've just recently realized this. If you'll be gentle, I'll admit...we've been yelling a lot. We've been threatening a lot. Dumb stuff that we know not to do. I think it's partly that they don't usually need so much prodding, & we're hesitant to give it. Partly because we're not sure how.

We have done that SAME thing! I think it's a VERY common GOOD PARENT problem. I mean, when you generally discipline well, generally have wonderfully behaved kids, etc it's real easy to not want to harp on them when they do mess up. And yet, by not disciplining, sometimes you get STUCK.

So dh & I talked about this recently. He suggested that we start spanking when the dc don't obey the first time. His argument is that it's better than the threats we're making & that while that would equal a lot of spankings at first, those would taper off. This approach would be comforting to the dc, ultimately, because they wouldn't have to wonder what we'd come up w/ next.

I think it's UNFAIR to hit a child (or even punish them) because YOU, THE PARENTS, made a mistake. Why kids have to pay for the mistakes of their parents is the biggest problem I have with punitive discipline. RARELY do kids act up when the parents have disciplined well, followed through, got to the HEART of the issue, etc.

I've read all of that in parenting books. Makes sense to me. A lot of sense. But...it doesn't sit right. I don't like the idea of giving ourselves such a free license w/ such a...questionable disciplinary practice. Kwim? We both have a little bit of a temper--him barely, me quite a bit. But he says that we will actually be LESS ang because we won't have to sit & fret about what to do every time they disobey, & that ultimately, they'll disobey less.

Your oldest is too old to hit as discipline even if you do believe in spanking. The other is getting there and you both saw that. Your hubby is RIGHT that if you address the issues you have EVERY TIME, you'll be less angry because you won't be worried about what to do when and how. He's also right that the kids will comply more readily. But this is the case NO MATTER what discipline you use. So why not simply make sure they comply the first time every time for awhile in a gentler, kinder, helpful matter ESPECIALLY since you admit that YOU, the parents, are the one that brought upon this phase (and btw, again, I SO GET THAT! We go through those same phases, albeit few and far between, especially as they get older).

So that is my suggestion. You need to do the "get off your butt parenting" but instead of being punitive, just simply BE THERE. Be close by when you tell your kids to do something. Direct them in the right direction if they seem hesitant. Give them time limits, make it a game, and all the other number of things that help. Keep it light hearted but firm. You can even apologize to them for being so lax recently but that you're not happy and know they aren't happy when you respond the way you do. Tell them you're sorry and that from now on, everyone is expected to obey the first time every time and mom will stay on top of things better to make sure that happens WITHOUT yelling, threatening, hitting, etc--without it getting to that point.

I hope this helps a little. I'd be glad to try to help further. There are already 3 pages of posts to you and I haven't read any of them yet. No doubt some of the suggestions are GREAT!

But I do feel strongly that you and hubby need to change YOUR behavior in order to change the children's behavior instead of punishing them because you let things go. They are children. Of course they took advantage when you let them. They aren't old enough to obey for their own reasons quite yet. You still have to build those reasons in. If nothing else, Mom has "mom power" and will make me do it (or make the world stop). But you don't have to punish them to get them back on track. Just get yourself on track and they'll get there too, just like little ducks in a row :)

Pamela H in Texas · June 15, 2008

It's just not practical or reasonable for me to have to tell them to close the door over. and. over. again.

Aubrey,

Can I make a suggestion here.

When I was training my kids for the boundaries outside (and we lived on a not so busy road but people came through at 50-ish mph!), we practiced a little every time when we first went outside. So every day, usually a couple times a day, we practiced the boundary. We ran to it and stopped. We hopped to it and stopped. We rode bikes to it and figured out how much room it took to turn so we didn't hit it. WE did a LOT to practice the boundary. I stayed fairly close to the boundary at first to make sure people (my kids, 3 fosters, and a daycare child--5, 2,2,2, 15mo, and infant) kept the boundary. If they struggled even once, their boundary was moved back and they practiced it. Again, there was no room for error and I wasn't in very good physical condition at this time either to chase them down in time, kwim?

Anyway, same with the door. When you come in from groceries, practice shutting the door a few times. When you come in from the park, same thing. When they come in from outside, they can try it an extra time. Again, keep it light hearted, even fun! But the idea is when you walk through that door, it gets shut. And a new habit gets formed. When they forget, they get to practice. It won't take a week or two that you'll see you almost never have that issue again because the NEW habit will be firmly implanted.

Then there will be something else. Where do shoes go? Where do library books get stacked? whatever.

The idea with practicing is to do it proactively, not reactively, though sometimes the consequence IS to practice. The main time of practicing is to retrain ourselves, much like how we practice scales in piano class or adding 1+1=2, 1+2=3, 1+3=4 and do it over and over and over again. We do things to make it enjoyable, but we still get it done.

HTHs a little :)

Night Elf · June 15, 2008

First, I'm not equating first time obedience w/ spanking. I'm not sure whether that was clear in my OP or not.

I didn't think that at all. I understood you that you were saying you did not want to use spanking, but wanted to find an effective way to get your children to obey the first time they had been told to do something. That's why I was asking about the concept and your goal.

As far as *why* to require fto...well...imagine if you had to ask somebody in your life...an employee or babysitter or UPS guy to do something 3+ times before they cooperated? I mean, w/in reason, you know?

I've encountered this, and most of the time it doesn't bother me. I've had to ask employees to do things repeatedly. The natural consequence was that if it truly annoyed me, it affected my opinion of the employee and therefore my comments on their annual assessment. In all honesty though, there were only a few people that really had a bad attitude about working and they didn't last long enough in the office to even get to the annual assessment.

W/ the kids, it's also annoying. It's just not practical or reasonable for me to have to tell them to close the door over. and. over. again. Kwim?

I hear that you find it annoying. I'm not saying my children have never annoyed me. But I definitely have a different opinion about what being a parent means. Different parenting styles, no biggie. :)

As for the door thing, I'd have my children practice going in and out, closing the door behind them each time, probably about 10 or 15 times. They would likely think it was funny at first but then tire of it. I imagine that would help them to remember to always close the door behind them. :tongue_smilie:

SnowWhite · June 15, 2008

I'm not much help, but I want to give you kudos for your paperclip idea. I may very well steal it for my seven year old! He's actually a little advanced for his age and I think we went through the behavior shift starting at 6.5... he's a doll lately, but we do have to remind him more than I'd like (perhaps a reflection of our increasing expectations for him).

BlsdMama · June 15, 2008

What really pushed me to believe that spanking wasn't for me was realizing that spanking them was a way for them to "pay" for their crimes. I don't know if you are Christian or not so disregard if you are not::) God does not make me pay for my sins so how can I ask my children to? Of course, they are expected to make things right and deal with the consequences, as am I. So my focus became how to "teach" rather than "punish" as I believe God does with us.

{{{{HUGS}}}} It is hard, I know.

I'd have to disagree. There certainly is a payment to be had for our sins... It's only through repentance is that payment paid by someone else. And there are certainly painful consequences to disregarding our Father's teachings... But, religion aside, spanking shouldn't ever be about making them "pay"... If spanking is done in anger, it is hitting. If spanking is done as the logical consequence that they understood would happen, then it is discipline. Even my 3.5 year old understands the difference. One day I did something he thought was naughty. He didn't think twice. He came over and gave me a spank on the bottom. I looked at him very seriously and said, "Tim, we don't hit mama!" Tim looked very confused. And do you know what he said? "Mama, I not hit you! You spanking." There was a difference. You hit someone when you're angry and it's wrong. A spanking is given in a situation as discipline in response to a chosen wrong action. CHOSEN wrong action, not childish misunderstanding or foolishness. It is the direct response for choosing, willfully, to disobey.

That said, spanking isn't an absolute necessity. However, having belonged to a grace based group for a couple of years, I can tell you that the above statement is generally given but not logical. Spanking is not what gets you obedience, or at least it will OUTWARDLY. The goal is to have your children be connected, attached and have a good relationship, all attachment strings tied so that each WANTS to please the other. This is done through work... No shortcuts. Mean what you say, say what you mean, train/teach for situations, always follow through with what you say - both good and bad.

CactusPair · June 15, 2008

Kudos to you, Aubrey and your dh, for taking the time to really reflect and think about this issue and what it means to you!

The paper clip is an interesting idea!

I think being a proactive parent, guiding before things happen, helps a lot. Praising enthusiastically for things, even small things, done right encourages the proper behavior, too.

We use a lot of modelling in our house. It's amazing how far a good example will take you.

We also use the step for time outs. We rarely have to give them these days.

I will tell you, though, that age seven brought some behavior challenges we hadn't seen before. I think it is very common and actually healthy at this age and just part of their natural development. We had to be on our toes and ready.

Miss Peregrine · June 15, 2008

I'd have to disagree. There certainly is a payment to be had for our sins... It's only through repentance is that payment paid by someone else. And there are certainly painful consequences to disregarding our Father's teachings... But, religion aside, spanking shouldn't ever be about making them "pay"... If spanking is done in anger, it is hitting. If spanking is done as the logical consequence that they understood would happen, then it is discipline. Even my 3.5 year old understands the difference. One day I did something he thought was naughty. He didn't think twice. He came over and gave me a spank on the bottom. I looked at him very seriously and said, "Tim, we don't hit mama!" Tim looked very confused. And do you know what he said? "Mama, I not hit you! You spanking." There was a difference. You hit someone when you're angry and it's wrong. A spanking is given in a situation as discipline in response to a chosen wrong action. CHOSEN wrong action, not childish misunderstanding or foolishness. It is the direct response for choosing, willfully, to disobey.

I would rather focus on natural/logical consequences than spanking. The logical consequence says they need to find out if I am okay, tend to my wounds, etc. The natural consequence is when you hit, no one wants to be around you.

We certainly don't let everything slide, but we don't "punish" either.

ChristusG · June 15, 2008

I'd have to disagree. There certainly is a payment to be had for our sins... It's only through repentance is that payment paid by someone else. And there are certainly painful consequences to disregarding our Father's teachings... But, religion aside, spanking shouldn't ever be about making them "pay"... If spanking is done in anger, it is hitting. If spanking is done as the logical consequence that they understood would happen, then it is discipline. Even my 3.5 year old understands the difference. One day I did something he thought was naughty. He didn't think twice. He came over and gave me a spank on the bottom. I looked at him very seriously and said, "Tim, we don't hit mama!" Tim looked very confused. And do you know what he said? "Mama, I not hit you! You spanking." There was a difference. You hit someone when you're angry and it's wrong. A spanking is given in a situation as discipline in response to a chosen wrong action. CHOSEN wrong action, not childish misunderstanding or foolishness. It is the direct response for choosing, willfully, to disobey.

That said, spanking isn't an absolute necessity. However, having belonged to a grace based group for a couple of years, I can tell you that the above statement is generally given but not logical. Spanking is not what gets you obedience, or at least it will OUTWARDLY. The goal is to have your children be connected, attached and have a good relationship, all attachment strings tied so that each WANTS to please the other. This is done through work... No shortcuts. Mean what you say, say what you mean, train/teach for situations, always follow through with what you say - both good and bad.

Very well put! That's exactly how I feel. I personally believe that as a Christian, by NOT spanking, I would be basically saying that God's way of discipline is not good enough. Even though it talks in the Bible of spanking. I never want to think that God's way is not good enough.

I am slowly working on my children obeying from the heart. I want them to want to obey because that's what God wants them to do. I dont want them to obey because they are worried they will get a spanking or get a toy taken away. So when my DD (4) gets in trouble, I make sure that she knows why she is getting the spanking, what she did wrong, how she could have handled it differently, what the Bible says about what she did wrong, and how many swats she will get. And never ever spank in anger. You should actually never spank immediately following the incident.....you need to reflect and make sure you are not spanking because your child embarassed you, or annoyed you, or something like that. You should be spanking because they disobeyed God.

I do not spank all the time. Sometimes I feel that the situation may need a different manner of discipline, such as removal from a situation or taking away a loved posession.

This is very much a work in progress for our family. Like you, we noticed that DD was getting very "out of hand" and not listening to us at all....whining and complaining about everything asked of her. And I dont feel that is how a child should act towards their parents. So we needed another way. I came across a book at a homeschool convention called "Dont Make Me Count To Three" by Ginger Plowman. Bought it, loved it, I'm having DH read it right now, and trying to implement it.

Reya · June 15, 2008

For me, it totally depends on the kid (for some, ONE spanking would be tantamount to abuse!) and the infraction (disobeying a safety rule versus being noisy).

For most things, I do timeouts. It rarely reaches the need for a spanking.

That said, I do expect first-time obedience, though first appeal is almost always permitted. (I don't wanna! is NOT.) The other child I'm HSing has been raised to different expectations, so it's more difficult dealing with him and the effect of his interactions on my DS, but we're progressing extremely rapidly. They mostly understand that there's a reason for swift obedience, and I'm far from authoritarian, so I mostly get cheerful compliance. There are some issues at least weekly at this point, though. *sighs*

There's a difference between first-time obedience and authoritarian childrearing. Here's an example of an acceptable interaction:

Me: DS, I need you to get your shoes so we can go to the store!

DS: I'm looking for the toy I want to bring!

Me: Okay. Put on the shoes as soon as you have the toy, okay?

DS: Okay!

If he forgets, he's in hot water, of course. A century ago, kids his age would have been responsible for half a dozen farm chores. He can certainly remember basic expectations. (He would also get in trouble--just a talking to, but a Talking To With Disapproval is a serious motivator here--if I told him to meet me at the car and he arrived sans shoes without a reminder. He knows the expectations. He needs to follow them.)

Unacceptable:

Me: DS, I need you to get your shoes so we can go to the store!

DS: I don't want to wear shoes. You can carry me.

Me: The owners and managers don't like anyone who's not a baby to not have shoes on in the store.

(here, it still might still be fine, but he blows it next)

DS: But I don't want to! (or: I don't like these shoes! or: I'll only do it if I can wear my red shoes! or whatever)

Acceptable:

Me: I need you guys to clean the playroom. It's a mess.

DS: I'm in the middle of a level on my game.

Me: You'll have to pause it and come back.

DS: All right.

Not acceptable:

DS: But I really, really want to finish it!

Me: No. Pause it.

DS: But WHY?

Another unacceptable example, a real circumstance, and NOT with my child, or he'd not have sat down for a WEEK:

Me: There'll be three of you in the car, so one of you big boys will ride in the middle and one will in the back.

DS: I want my seat. It's in the middle!

Other Child: I don't want to sit in the back.

Me: You'll have to sit in the back on the way there because you can't both sit int he middle. Please don't get in the car yet since I need to get the other booster.

(I leave, come back to discover DS distraught and OC in the car in the middle chair smirking at DC. THIS is a spanking offense right there--deliberate, willful defiance, plus a good dash of violating fair play and just plain meanness. Not my kid, though, and the father was there, anyway--I do have spanking privileges, but obviously I can't just usurp the father's position--and so no spanking.)

Me: Out NOW. You disobeyed deliberately. Now you may not sit in the middle seat on the way back, either.

OC: (crying, pitching fit) But I don't LIKE that seat! I want to sit in the OTHER seat! I HATE that seat! I WON'T get in!

Rosie_0801 · June 15, 2008

But I wonder if it is in the long term. We were brought up that way, and all it did was squash our character. There was no room for negotiations even when the rule was completely illogical. Example: I was allowed to walk to primary school but wasn't allowed to walk to the local shop until I was 15. The shop was half way between home and the primary school.

I think all parents have that particular tone that says "NOW AND DON'T ARGUE" which most kids will respond to in times of crisis. The crisis may be a matter of life and death, or might be that Mum is in a ferocious mood and isn't able to negotiate at present.

If not in either of those situations, I think it's best if we can accept the "Yep, just let me finish this paragraph" or "Let me get to a bit where I can save this game." I think if we're reasonable about these things, they'll be more reasonable during those times when we say "Sorry, I need it done now" and "You said you'd do it when you finished X, and you've finished so go do it now please and no, you can't just finish that paragraph." I think if we've been brought up with this kind of autocratic parenting we tend to over-emphasise instant obedience. If we can stop and take a step back, we sometimes find that we are demanding the kids jump to attention for things that don't really matter that much. The dog won't starve if the dc make him wait for 10mins. I also think we fall into the trap of expecting better behaviour than we ought. We forget stuff, get lazy, procrastinate etc, so it's not really reasonable to expect our kids to be permanently motivated. Of course it's our job to train them to be, so I'm not sure where the line is drawn!

Of course it depends on your kids. Some kids just go full steam ahead until someone inflicts pain on them. With those kinds of kids, I guess you have to smack. Fortunately I haven't come across too many of them.

My thoughts,

Rosie

Reya · June 15, 2008

I'll give you a different perspective on instant obedience. One of my grandmothers (A) wanted and demanded instant obedience. The other's (B) philosophy was that they were children and it wasn't natural to for them to immediately obey, at least all the time. Guess which one raised more stable and loving adults?

There was more to Grandma B's childrearing philosophy than accepting that children DON'T immediately obey, but it's a reflection of what her overall philosophy was. My mother told me shortly before she died, that there was nothing worse than disappointing her mother.

I had two who were different! A's kids came out a LOT better, though she was hardly a martinet or anything like that. (She was mostly a really cool mom, from the stories I've heard.) B mostly tried guilt and ineffectual nagging as childrearing techniques--and they passed that on, too. That side of the family usually gives me a headache. I can't stand the DRAMA.

Reya · June 15, 2008

We don't "do" spanking or 1st time obedience in our home. I can't think of a single instance in our home that has ever required such a strong parenting technique.

The biggest spanking I have ever given DS was when he violated a parking lot safety rule just about the instant it came out of my mouth. He nearly got hit by a car. I've also spanked for playing with knives and for messing with a pot on the stove--yes, these were known rules that were being violated.

Fortunately, it's taken DS 0 trips to the emergency room to learn that safety rules are serious business. It took me a broken arm, 3rd degree burns, and a 2" piece of glass in my foot. I think the spankings are FAR better!

Reya · June 15, 2008

But I wonder if it is in the long term. We were brought up that way, and all it did was squash our character.....

If not in either of those situations, I think it's best if we can accept the "Yep, just let me finish this paragraph" or "Let me get to a bit where I can save this game." I think if we're reasonable about these things, they'll be more reasonable during those times when we say "Sorry, I need it done now" and "You said you'd do it when you finished X, and you've finished so go do it now please and no, you can't just finish that paragraph."... We forget stuff, get lazy, procrastinate etc, so it's not really reasonable to expect our kids to be permanently motivated. Of course it's our job to train them to be, so I'm not sure where the line is drawn!

There's a difference between expecting obedience and being default-no. I am default-yes (Kids want to sleep in a bathtub? Go ahead!), but I expect obedience without protracted negotiating.

If I say "now," you'd better have a VERY good reason why you can't. If I don't, and you have something else to do, and I say no, then you'd better not try to negotiate. If I say yes, you better finish that in a hurry and then do what I said.

If we forget stuff or are lazy, we are penalized. Children should be, too.

DH learned no respect for these kinds of requests growing up. In my family, it wasn't expected that you'd jump up that instant to do things, but if you had to be asked twice, you were in SERIOUS trouble. In DH's family, his parents would alternate meaningless physical abuse with nagging. This has caused SO much friction in our marriage because it means that he didn't ever learn respect for others that would mean that my request of, "Hey, could you make sure the trash gets out tonight?" has more than a 1 in 10 chance of being heeded. This sort of treatment of other people has led to the very worst aspects of our married life since I discovered pretty quickly that the only way to make sure he'd do something was to be, frankly, nasty to him. So if I said, "Will you take out the trash?" he wouldn't do it, but if I said, for example, "Please take out the trash," and he said, "Sure," and THEN I said, "Will you do it now, then? Because otherwise, you'll just say you will and then won't. Like you always do," THEN he would take it out. Not good for a relationship.

In my family, the privilege of doing something later was earned by one's reliability. If someone can be counted on to really do X within a reasonable time frame for that activity, it wouldn't be required to be done instantaneously. This came about at different points for different people. I think this is a healthy way to do it!

Pam "SFSOM" in TN · June 15, 2008

There's a difference between expecting obedience and being default-no. I am default-yes (Kids want to sleep in a bathtub? Go ahead!), but I expect obedience without protracted negotiating.

If I say "now," you'd better have a VERY good reason why you can't. If I don't, and you have something else to do, and I say no, then you'd better not try to negotiate. If I say yes, you better finish that in a hurry and then do what I said.

If we forget stuff or are lazy, we are penalized. Children should be, too.

DH learned no respect for these kinds of requests growing up. In my family, it wasn't expected that you'd jump up that instant to do things, but if you had to be asked twice, you were in SERIOUS trouble. In DH's family, his parents would alternate meaningless physical abuse with nagging. This has caused SO much friction in our marriage because it means that he didn't ever learn respect for others that would mean that my request of, "Hey, could you make sure the trash gets out tonight?" has more than a 1 in 10 chance of being heeded. This sort of treatment of other people has led to the very worst aspects of our married life since I discovered pretty quickly that the only way to make sure he'd do something was to be, frankly, nasty to him. So if I said, "Will you take out the trash?" he wouldn't do it, but if I said, for example, "Please take out the trash," and he said, "Sure," and THEN I said, "Will you do it now, then? Because otherwise, you'll just say you will and then won't. Like you always do," THEN he would take it out. Not good for a relationship.

In my family, the privilege of doing something later was earned by one's reliability. If someone can be counted on to really do X within a reasonable time frame for that activity, it wouldn't be required to be done instantaneously. This came about at different points for different people. I think this is a healthy way to do it!

Ooh, the rep thing says I have to spread it around some, but this is a great post.

I'm "default yes," as well. And your example of reliablity is spot on.

Kathleen in VA · June 15, 2008

I have skimmed the other responses to your post, Aubrey, but didn't have time to really read them thoroughly. I hope you don't mind me just jumping in with my two cents.

I read a pamphlet on child training when my oldest were very young and I found its advice to be very helpful. Here is a link to that same pamphlet online.

http://www.ntmu.net/lovingcommand.htm

I know spanking seems harsh, but it is really a kindness when done out of love. I think of it as a kind of vaccination (I know those are controversial as well, but it is the idea of a vaccination, not necessarily the actual shot). When we give a child a painful shot the idea is that we are preventing a much worse consequence down the road. Yes, the shot hurts, just like a spanking, but in the end the idea is that it keeps our child from contracting a life-threatening illness.

When spanking is done out of love for the child it is not done in anger. It should just be a short, quick, sharp stroke - not too hard but hard enough to sting a bit on the softest, least important part of the anatomy - as a reminder that the behavior that instigated it is unacceptable. This should be administered in a cool, unemotional, matter-of-fact state of mind. A simple consequence for unacceptable behavior.

My mother was a spanker, but not the right kind. She tried to be patient and then, when she just couldn't take it any more, she would lose that patience and spank out of sheer frustration and anger. This is the wrong way to spank.

When done properly, the child senses that you are trying to help them grow up and do what is right. Lots of hugs and kisses should follow every spanking.

Also remember that there is a season for this training. It does not last forever. If you are diligent and consistent at the beginning, you will not need to do this for long.

I know this advice flies in the face of a lot of advice out there that says that spanking is harmful and that it teaches violence. I just do not agree with that. I spanked all my children and none of them are violent - quite the contrary. They have all developed self-control and are sweet, dear people.

I also recommend Elisabeth Elliot's materials on child training.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN · June 15, 2008

The problem is that lately...they've got no follow-through. Could be the weather, their ages, coming baby. I don't know. But it's gotten to be too much, & dh & I don't have enough of a plan. I mean, what DO you do once you "get off your behind"?

But the necklace thing--it's been maybe 3 hrs? Ds has been doing chores & some spelling, & he hasn't gotten a single paperclip. He's SO proud. It was the first thing he showed dh when dh came in fr work.

Even if it's just for today, I'll take it. I'm crossing my fingers that I'm on the right path, though.

Yay, for the necklace! You are a very creative mommy!

What I "do" depends. The idea is to get up and lead the child to the chore or whatever. Sometimes I just stand up and look stern and point. (I'm talking the 4 y/o now, and previously the Bigs, but I don't get up and lead the 15 y/o to what I've asked, lol!) If I've told the child to pick up a toy or whatever and they don't, I most often get up and pick up the toy myself. The toy then goes without much fanfare (but often with much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the child) to my bedroom closet into toy jail.

I think kids can have an environment that is too complicated. Too many toys, too many books, too many dishes, too many choices. (And guilty, guilty, guilty here, btw.) So simplifying the environment is also a big option. Not being worried too much if they are miserable is another option. Miserable is a choice. So go be miserable, but don't involve me in the process. And if your life is making you miserable, I won't be part of that. Fewer toys to make you happy? I will oblige you.

Also, never underestimate the power of whining to get attention for your kid. If they are getting attention in a negative way, it's still attention. Handing them a hand broom and dustpan or a squirt bottle and a cloth and having them work with you is a great way of letting them have your attention without putting forth too much energy.

Also, I would say that if you don't have a routine in place -- WRITTEN -- get one. Lots more peace when a child knows after lunch, we sweep the crumbs and wipe down the table. It Says So on the paper on the fridge.

Hang in there. I can't imagine doing half as well or as much as you.

Aubrey · June 15, 2008

I think kids can have an environment that is too complicated. Too many toys, too many books, too many dishes, too many choices. (And guilty, guilty, guilty here, btw.) So simplifying the environment is also a big option. Not being worried too much if they are miserable is another option. Miserable is a choice. So go be miserable, but don't involve me in the process. And if your life is making you miserable, I won't be part of that. Fewer toys to make you happy? I will oblige you.

Yep, we have toy jail. And we've been purging a LOT since moving here. And we just set up a schedule for their toys--they're going to rotate ea. mo. This mo., they can play legos. Only. They've got maybe 4 sets of these, so it's not as monotonous as it sounds.

And guess what? I've only had trouble getting them to clean their room once since then. It's stayed virtually immaculate. And honestly? They're busy enough w/ other stuff, that they don't really have time to get bored w/ something in a mo.

We've narrowed their toys down to 6 main things ea, so they'll go through this rotation 2/yr.

And ds LOVED the necklace idea. He wore it for 2-3 hrs yesterday w/out a single paperclip, & he was just gushing, he was so excited. It was all he could talk about when dh got home, & we'd been doing chores most of that time, so he had plenty of op. to whine. Although dd was napping, so his main temptation was removed fr the picture, too, lol.

Thanks, Pam, & everybody. We've got a lot to think about. I've got to finish cleaning house before my ils get here.

Jumping In Puddles · June 15, 2008

<snip>

Children Learn Respect By Example

:iagree: :hurray:

Absolute truth, that! :thumbup: I want that bumper sticker.

I can't believe how many adults are disrespectful, rude and immature - how do they think their kids will behave?

jeri · June 15, 2008

My dh adn I have 6 kids, ages 11, 10, 8, 8, 6 and 5. The 10 yo was adopted from Ukraine 2.5 years ago; one of the 8 yos and the 6 yo were adopted from Ethiopia 10 weeks ago. So you can see that we have varied "types" of kids!

As for spanking, we spanked up until 4 or 5, one or two swats, never with an object. It was only for active disobedience, never for "punishment," except in extreme circumstances. For example, if my 3 yo left a mess in the family room, I had them clean it up and usually modelled it or helped. But if that same 3 yo had been warned to stop dumping water on the floor, had looked me in the eye when I told him/her, then proceeded to do it again, s/he would have been spanked. Also, if that same child had bitten another child (a real story) or had run through the parking lot, that would have warranted a spanking. Once they hit 4 or 5 though, I have to come up with creative solutions.

We do want first time obedience. We don't call it "demand" because that is sort of harsh sounding. But we do expect them to do it quickly, quietly, and completely. Just a few minutes ago, we came in from church adn most of the kids dumped their shoes on the floor without putting them on the shoe rack. I told the offending parties to put them on the shoe rack. My 5 yo and 8 yo Et/Am kids did exactly what I told him to do, my 10 yo put one shoe on the shoe rack, and my 6 yo didn't pay attention and played with a car instead. So, I took the sneaks from my 10 yo so she can go without them for a bit, and I had her sweep up the area aoound and under the shoe rack with a dustpan and brush. I had my 6 yo child grab a squirt bottle and wash the back of the wall with a rag (which gets splattered with dirt due to the shoes.) In neither case did I yell or scream, I just calmly told them that since they didn't do what they had been told to do, they need to help with some extra work to make them think harder.

I know that you have very little children and it is HARD WORK! I do remember those days and even now I do lose my temper sometimes! My dh is an awesome support for me and I think he is a terrific father. His most favorite saying is that "it has to be more painful to *not* follow directions than to follow directions." And this is not pain in the sense of physical pain, just aggravation. One thing we are working with right now is getting into bed on time. It is still somewhat challenging to integrate the newest kids into our routine, but we are being patient. ONce they understand a little more English, perhaps next month, we will start the policy of every minute you delay getting into bed by a certain time (or get into bed only to find that you "forgot" to go to the bathroom, etc.), you will go to bed that much time earlier the next week so you can "have time to do everything you need to do ahead of time." Therefore, the pain when the other kids get to stay up a little later. Another thing he is good at is separating "kid" behavior from "bad" behavior. Leaving the legos out on the floor is "kid" behavior and the response is to tell them (maybe for the 40th time that week) to pick up the legos. Eventually they will catch on. Or perhaps you take 50% of the legos away until they can pick those up regularly, then you add more.

I will say that while it is a tough road since yes, you are always "on," the blessing is when you see how your children behave. Just yesterday we were on a sightseeing train and boat ride and I was chatting with an older couple who were crisscrossing the country in their RV. At the end, they complimented us on our kids' behavior! Now our kids weren't just sitting there like robots--they were looking out at the scenary, listening in on our conversation (without interrupting), talking to each other--but they were behaving!

I think that if you keep the principles to a minimum, and if one of them is immediate obedience, you can give them a lot of freedom and see them develop as individuals and as sibs.

Sorry this is short but I've gotta run! Hang in there--it does get better!

jeri

Joanne · June 15, 2008

I personally believe that as a Christian, by NOT spanking, I would be basically saying that God's way of discipline is not good enough. Even though it talks in the Bible of spanking. I never want to think that God's way is not good enough.

I don't wish to get into a "biblical spanking" debate. I do want to point out that God's specific instructions on parenting are limited; but he does say a lot about character and relationships. The verses that some feel advocate spanking are few, obscure and certainly debatable. I do not see, interpret or think that God says "spank your kids".

Indeed, if you take the "rod verses" literally, you are to beat an older child with a stick. That's where I scratch my head at the rhetoric and culture that has grown around this issue in much of the conservative Christian community. It has become so.....hyperfocused that spanking = discipline and training. Those who hold to Biblical spanking feel they take the verses literally instead of a figurative rod of authority can't "spank" as the Bible tells them and still call it appropriate disicpline. It seems to me the *only* way to take those verses is as a metaphor; not as specific discipline instructions.

Much of the literature on this topic is wildy and oddly *extra biblical*. A lot of it is similar to:

When spanking is done out of love for the child it is not done in anger. It should just be a short, quick, sharp stroke - not too hard but hard enough to sting a bit on the softest, least important part of the anatomy - as a reminder that the behavior that instigated it is unacceptable. This should be administered in a cool, unemotional, matter-of-fact state of mind. A simple consequence for unacceptable behavior.

That's fine. I get it. But the Bible does not "go there". It's a man made application. The above quote is repeated in many Christian writings on the topic of parenting - but it does not come from the Bible.

Look, I've said it over and over. You can be a terrific parent and have spanking as an option. You can be a terrific parent and never spank. But the myopic approach to parenting that I've personally seen many conservative Christian parents adopt concerns me.

If you are spanking as training (ie frequently), I think something is wrong.

Truly, having 3 of my own past normal acceptable for spanking ages, and cared for many others over the course of years......punishment, including spanking, is something we do while we wait for the kids to grow out of whatever developmental stage leads them to behave in the way that got them punished to begin with.

Good parenting involved loving, patient, mostly non punitive firm and engaged parents who understand the development of impulse control, character and know how to cultivate a family tone of safety, love, boundaries and rules. Good parenting involves a lot of time, energy, GETTING OFF YOUR BUTT and repitition.

runningirl71 · June 15, 2008

Joanne,

I loved your post. These are the quotes that stood out to me:

Indeed, if you take the "rod verses" literally, you are to beat an older child with a stick. That's where I scratch my head at the rhetoric and culture that has grown around this issue in much of the conservative Christian community. It has become so.....hyperfocused that spanking = discipline and training. Those who hold to Biblical spanking feel they take the verses literally instead of a figurative rod of authority can't "spank" as the Bible tells them and still call it appropriate disicpline. It seems to me the *only* way to take those verses is as a metaphor; not as specific discipline instructions.

Look, I've said it over and over. You can be a terrific parent and have spanking as an option. You can be a terrific parent and never spank. But the myopic approach to parenting that I've personally seen many conservative Christian parents adopt concerns me.

If you are spanking as training (ie frequently), I think something is wrong.

Good parenting involved loving, patient, mostly non punitive firm and engaged parents who understand the development of impulse control, character and know how to cultivate a family tone of safety, love, boundaries and rules. Good parenting involves a lot of time, energy, GETTING OFF YOUR BUTT and repitition.

We have a 13, 10, and almost 3 year old. I was so young when my older two were born that I just went along with what others I knew were doing, instead of really finding out what parenting style fits me. Can you guess what happened after not having a little one for years and years and then having another little one? Yes, our parenting style has changed! And, I've come to the conclusions you stated in your post.

We are in the process of becoming foster parents. What that will mean is no spanking for those kids that come into our home. This forced me to look at alternative methods of discipline and training. We spanked with our oldest two, although deep down I didn't like it, but it seemed like it was expected in our family and circle of friends. That's the first red flag, isn't it? Doing something for outward appearances. It has taken me a long long time to realize that most of my parenting decisions were not b/c it was best for my child, but what was expected of me by others.

Now, I focus on natural consequences and that has been working well. Parenting is hard! And it takes a lot of effort. Yes, you can't be not engaged and parent well.

Aubrey, I hope you find what works well for your family. Do what works best for YOU, not what others expect! :grouphug:

MerryAtHope · June 15, 2008

I don't think this is an either-or type of question--either spank or don't have first time obedience as a general standard. There ARE other consequences you can use when you need a consequence that can be just as effective or sometimes moreso depending on the child.

Arguing, whining, complaining, negotiating--common kid stuff. It happens more when we tolerate it and less when we don't. Consistency is more important than whether you spank or not. So if you don't like spanking (and I agree to save it for only big things, not as your main or only resort to disobedience), then decide not to & choose other things. Choose your standard & your kids will come to it, whether it's obey the first time you ask or obey when your face turns red, you know?

I think a lot of obedience issues really are more a matter of training than of consequences though. If we spend time training what it means to obey, what we expect, we don't need consequences as often. Especially if we combine that training with lots of love and encouragement, but consistent boundaries that kids are trained to. I also heard Dobson once say to say yes as often as we could, and that really stuck with me. It's easy to say no--things are not convenient, we don't feel like it etc... That's just selfishness on my part! Or laziness. So, if I CAN say yes, I do, even if it means saying, "That's a great idea, we can do that later today at X o'clock," or "We can do that tomorrow at X o'clock." (I add the time or "after dinner" so that I'm accountable & don't just keep changing my mind!). If they know they CAN do the things they want, they usually are willing to wait (but if not, then we might not be doing the thing they want at all that day, and whining wasn't worth it...they learn pretty fast!). And then if I really do need to say no to something, they also are more accepting, because they see me as a parent who says yes when I can.

Titus 2:12 says that God's grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness, and Romans 2:4 says God's kindness leads us to repentance. So I don't look at consequences and pain as my only, or even as the main tool in my parenting toolbox. I think my kindness and grace, when shown as a reflection of our Saviors kindness and grace, is going to do more longterm to help mold their hearts. That doesn't mean I don't have standards (though it does sometimes mean I help them meet the standard if they are not able on their own), but it means the boundaries I enforce are in the context of my loving them and my really looking for what's best for them and our family, and not just what makes my life easy.

I teach my kids what obedience is with a 5-finger rhyme: Yes, Mom/Dad, I'll obey, Right Away, All the Way, the Happy way (they don't have to like it, but they do need to not say no, not argue/whine/complain, generally have a good attitude.). Now, if I see a child that doesn't obey "the happy way," as a general pattern of behavior, there are consequences (usually something related--loss of a privilege they were asking for, an additional chore if they were complaining about the one I gave them, something like that). But I also look at the pattern, pray about my child and what's really going on, and ask God for a window into their soul, for wisdom, so that I'll know best how to respond. Maybe the root cause is that I say no a lot. Maybe the root cause is I've not been spending enough time with this child. Maybe it happens when I ask them to do something right before a meal & they just are hungry or tired & don't have good self-control at that time of day. Maybe I always interrupt them in their play, and a simple 5-minute warning would help them transition. Maybe I've been remiss in allowing whining & it's a pattern--maybe they don't even hear themselves whine & need me to model their voice to them... There could be lots of reasons, and I find time in thought & prayer helps me discover what will really help my child more than just consequences.

Anyway...I hope that makes sense & gives you some further direction to pursue. God bless, Merry :-)

Pamela H in Texas · June 15, 2008

But I wonder if it is in the long term

It shouldn't BE for the long term. After a child learns obedience, then you teach them to "argue appropriately." They should be able to state their case for something in an appropriate manner, even at 3 or 5 yrs old. However, some kids need to obey first for awhile and need to learn WHEN even once they learn HOW to "argue their point appropriately." It is just a progression, one that is worked through the toddler and preschool years, with the average 6-8yo doing pretty well at it most of the time.

Onto Reya's post:

I was NOT a default yes person when my kids were young. I wish I could say I were.

Several years ago, though, my kids started driving me absolutely BATTY with asking questions for EVERYTHING, even things that were common to our routine, like snack. A 7yo knows what time is morning snack time and is perfectly capable of grabbing himself an apple! So I told my kids to try to not ask me if it's something common and to just "let me know" on many things (kinda like all my 15yo needs to do is let me know when she'll be home, not ask to be out to a certain time). It took a little work at very first but they got it fairly quickly (as I'd imagine most 8+yos could). Then the other thing we implemented was that if I didn't answer, to just say, "thanks mom" to acknowledge the implied okay. My son had a field day with that a few times, but came around quickly.

Really, past 6-8yrs old (depending on the child), kids are SO easy if they've been taught along the way. It's worth it to me to do the real work the first 4-6 years, hone up for a year or two and then let them have a good deal of freedom, practicing the skills and tools I gave them. I would do that part exactly the same with the next kiddo (if there ever were one which looks unlikely).

Anyway, I just wish I had loosened up (not become permissive, just loosened up) a little earlier. We were nonpunitive but I still ran a tight ship, maybe too tight for a few years. Thankfully I outgrew it by the time it mattered, imo, but that part I would change a little. I want to be a default-yes mom. (btw, I did allow my kid to sleep in the tub! LOL)

Reya · June 15, 2008

Ooh, the rep thing says I have to spread it around some, but this is a great post.

I'm "default yes," as well. And your example of reliablity is spot on.

Thanks!

Trying to explain in words what's going on in family dynamics can be really hard. :-) It's easier to observe these things, really. What I do can *sound* almost drill-sergeant-y, but it's really, really far from that. In fact, the ideal situation is that I never have to tell DS to do anything because he knows what his responsibilities and expectations are and just does them. And he's free to ask for all sorts of things and to have a lot of freedom about how something gets done. (He's currently in long sleeves. Again. And it's in the 90s. I think he's crazy, but once a kid can dress himself, I let him choose what he wears. If it clashes or is inappropriate to the weather, I'll give him a heads up, but I won't stop him.)

We're a family that believe in, for example, taking kids out in public a LOT. (With lots of kids, this would get prohibitively expensive, but just one--soon to be two--it's fine!) DS goes on more of our anniversaries than not, for example--simply because it's less of a bother to have him along than it is to arrange for someone to watch him. We've *always* expected perfect behavior, to the extent of a child's abilities, in a restaurant. But we also treat the child like a respected member of the family and include him in conversations and listen to his input and desires. It's a two-way street. You behave in accordance to the rules of good behavior, and you get treated with respect and consideration and your opinions, including the ones we don't share, get taken seriously.

I worked in a nursery and babysat many, many hours as a kid, and I saw what I wanted my kids to be like--and what I didn't! Some of the worst examples came from permissive families, but really authoritarian ones were almost as bad. I had a list in my head before I ever had kids: I want my kid to be like X, Y, Z.

Reya · June 15, 2008

It's a man made application. The above quote is repeated in many Christian writings on the topic of parenting - but it does not come from the Bible.

Look, I've said it over and over. You can be a terrific parent and have spanking as an option. You can be a terrific parent and never spank. But the myopic approach to parenting that I've personally seen many conservative Christian parents adopt concerns me.

If you are spanking as training (ie frequently), I think something is wrong.

Yep. Pretty much, that sums it up.

Laura Corin · June 15, 2008

When I don't get obedience first time, I gather the child into my arms, hug him gently and tell him that I need him to listen to me. He then goes off and does the task. Since I started this (and stopped time outs - we never spanked) obedience has improved enormously - he wants to be part of the family circle, and that feeling comes from being in concert with me. The hugs are not rewards for naughtiness: the boys get embraced a lot, so hugs are just a way of welcoming them back into the family.

Another thing that helps is to attract the child's attention before telling him what to do: often my boys are reading or playing and it takes a minute for their minds to return to the present. I don't see this as disobedience.

Best wishes

Laura

Reya · June 15, 2008

We do want first time obedience. We don't call it "demand" because that is sort of harsh sounding. But we do expect them to do it quickly, quietly, and completely. Just a few minutes ago, we came in from church adn most of the kids dumped their shoes on the floor without putting them on the shoe rack. I told the offending parties to put them on the shoe rack. My 5 yo and 8 yo Et/Am kids did exactly what I told him to do, my 10 yo put one shoe on the shoe rack, and my 6 yo didn't pay attention and played with a car instead. So, I took the sneaks from my 10 yo so she can go without them for a bit, and I had her sweep up the area aoound and under the shoe rack with a dustpan and brush. I had my 6 yo child grab a squirt bottle and wash the back of the wall with a rag (which gets splattered with dirt due to the shoes.) In neither case did I yell or scream, I just calmly told them that since they didn't do what they had been told to do, they need to help with some extra work to make them think harder.

That's my first reaction to most things, too. Mine isn't old enough yet to really get things CLEAN when I make assignments like that, but I've consoled myself that at least I'll have a very clean house on "rough days" in the future. :-P

Delighted3 · June 15, 2008

I have not read all of the responses, so forgive me if this has already been said. I think you should follow your husbands leading in this. I think a spanking given in the proper manner is perfectly acceptable. Only you and your husband can decide on the circumstances that you want to give a spanking. If it were me, I would sit down and talk it over with dh and decide on the circumstances you will spank. If you decide on first time obedience, then be consistent. Having children that are constantly manipulating, whining and talking back to get what they want makes everyone weary. It is not good for your mental health and it is not good for a marriage. Ultimately, it is not good for the children.

Just my 2 cents,

Joy

ChristusG · June 15, 2008

I don't wish to get into a "biblical spanking" debate. I do want to point out that God's specific instructions on parenting are limited; but he does say a lot about character and relationships. The verses that some feel advocate spanking are few, obscure and certainly debatable. I do not see, interpret or think that God says "spank your kids".

Indeed, if you take the "rod verses" literally, you are to beat an older child with a stick. That's where I scratch my head at the rhetoric and culture that has grown around this issue in much of the conservative Christian community. It has become so.....hyperfocused that spanking = discipline and training. Those who hold to Biblical spanking feel they take the verses literally instead of a figurative rod of authority can't "spank" as the Bible tells them and still call it appropriate disicpline. It seems to me the *only* way to take those verses is as a metaphor; not as specific discipline instructions.

Much of the literature on this topic is wildy and oddly *extra biblical*. A lot of it is similar to:

That's fine. I get it. But the Bible does not "go there". It's a man made application. The above quote is repeated in many Christian writings on the topic of parenting - but it does not come from the Bible.

Look, I've said it over and over. You can be a terrific parent and have spanking as an option. You can be a terrific parent and never spank. But the myopic approach to parenting that I've personally seen many conservative Christian parents adopt concerns me.

If you are spanking as training (ie frequently), I think something is wrong.

Truly, having 3 of my own past normal acceptable for spanking ages, and cared for many others over the course of years......punishment, including spanking, is something we do while we wait for the kids to grow out of whatever developmental stage leads them to behave in the way that got them punished to begin with.

Good parenting involved loving, patient, mostly non punitive firm and engaged parents who understand the development of impulse control, character and know how to cultivate a family tone of safety, love, boundaries and rules. Good parenting involves a lot of time, energy, GETTING OFF YOUR BUTT and repitition.

Notice that I started my statement with "I personally." This is a decision we've come to. We've prayed about it and I feel that God is telling me that we need to spank. People are convicted differently.

The Well-Trained Mind Extended Guide

First-time obedience, spanking, & other parenting issues...

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