Question about Mormons and Christianity

[prairiewindmomma]

Dangermom--I'm LDS too. :) I hear Brandon Sanderson does book signings at the BYU bookstore a fair amount. One of these years when we head out west I hope to track him down at a book signing. Although I've enjoyed the vast majority of his books, my favorite work of his has been from the Wheel of Time series...

 

Ugh. Girls camp. I start twitching thinking about it. It's my least favorite part of serving as YW President. I've been begging my bishop for a new camp director but he keeps giving me this nonsense about needing to staff the primary first. ;)

[MamaSheep]

Can't say I've ever seen (or tasted) that one, thank goodness! I don't doubt it, though. I've seen some fairly inedible things. (I've been in Utah county for 38 years, now, since I was eight. Do you you suppose it was trying to be an aspic, or whatever those things they used to make in the 30's were?

 

I suspect you may be right, now that you mention it.

 

Speaking of, one of my dad's favorite dishes for Thanksgiving every year is a tomato aspic. It's like eating condensed tomato soup straight and undiluted. I've never liked it. The poor man had to do without this year because Mom had foot surgery and all the cooking was done by the daughters and daughters-in-law, and none of us were taking on an aspic. It was kind of fun sharing the kitchen with my girlz, though. The men-folk kept stopping by and saying things like they wished they had a video camera because the orchestration it took to have that many people cooking that many dishes all at the same time in the same kitchen without fighting over measuring cups or accidentally stabbing someone when turning around with a knife was astounding. We had such a good time. :) (AND NO ASPIC! YAY!)

[Live2Ride]

Dangermom--I'm LDS too. :) I hear Brandon Sanderson does book signings at the BYU bookstore a fair amount. One of these years when we head out west I hope to track him down at a book signing. Although I've enjoyed the vast majority of his books, my favorite work of his has been from the Wheel of Time series...

 

Ugh. Girls camp. I start twitching thinking about it. It's my least favorite part of serving as YW President. I've been begging my bishop for a new camp director but he keeps giving me this nonsense about needing to staff the primary first. ;)

 

Try running Girls Camp....fun fun :tongue_smilie:. I got asked to take over 2 weeks before camp a few years ago when the gal had to work over the summer. YIKES! Talk about a shock!

 

We have issues staffing it sometimes. I am already planning and my head hurts, but we are going to a different facility; it's brand new and just beautiful. Unfortunately these girls don't do much outdoors camping (a precedent set before I came along), but we have done a few overnighters and we are planning one as a stake in the spring with the girls. We did a stake hike last year before camp and the girls had a blast. Many of them got to meet other girls from other wards and when they got to camp, they were able to recognize some of the girls already. They have requested that we do it again.

[susankenny]

I have a question & I'm not sure if it was addressed. Do mormons believe people outside of the LDS church are Christians? I understand you consider yourselves Christian, but what do you consider those outside of the Latter day Saint church?

 

Thanks:)

 

Susan

[MamaSheep]

I have a question & I'm not sure if it was addressed. Do mormons believe people outside of the LDS church are Christians? I understand you consider yourselves Christian, but what do you consider those outside of the Latter day Saint church?

 

Thanks:)

 

Susan

 

Generally speaking we consider anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ as the Savior to be a Christian, yes.

 

(We do, however, believe that our version of Christianity is the most authentic. ;) )

 

HTH

[susankenny]

Generally speaking we consider anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ as the Savior to be a Christian, yes.

 

(We do, however, believe that our version of Christianity is the most authentic. ;) )

 

HTH

 

Thank you! I've always wanted to know that but felt too weird asking!!:001_smile:

 

 

Susan

[Veritaserum]

I have a question & I'm not sure if it was addressed. Do mormons believe people outside of the LDS church are Christians? I understand you consider yourselves Christian, but what do you consider those outside of the Latter day Saint church?

 

Thanks:)

 

Susan

 

Yep (if they are a flavor of Christian and not, say Buddhist or somenthing). :)

[MamaSheep]

Thank you! I've always wanted to know that but felt too weird asking!!:001_smile:

 

 

Susan

 

No problem. Believe me, I've heard weird questions about our beliefs, and that one doesn't even come CLOSE to weird. I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to wonder.:001_smile:

[meggie]

Dangermom--I'm LDS too. :) I hear Brandon Sanderson does book signings at the BYU bookstore a fair amount. One of these years when we head out west I hope to track him down at a book signing. Although I've enjoyed the vast majority of his books, my favorite work of his has been from the Wheel of Time series...

 

Ugh. Girls camp. I start twitching thinking about it. It's my least favorite part of serving as YW President. I've been begging my bishop for a new camp director but he keeps giving me this nonsense about needing to staff the primary first. ;)

 

My favorite, favorite book is Warbreaker. Brandon came to the library to do a book signing a year ago, maybe. But gosh darn it! Hubby had to work that day and I wanted to cry. And I think I was grossly pregnant at the time and couldn't even walk around the block without my back killing me and me crying otherwise I would have walked and then asked, "IS CLOD A LIFELESS ARSTEEL?!?!? BY GOLLY I HAVE TO KNOW OR I'M GOING TO GO CRAZY!?!?" And he obviously would have said, "I think you are already there. But the answer is _____" And then I could have died happy having that mystery solved.

[gamedesignmom]

Whew! Finally got to the end of the thread and realized it's winding down. But I do have a few questions myself that have bothered me for a few years.

 

One of my best friends from HS is LDS- in fact my family and I almost joined the church. My friend and her family befriended us and helped my mom (a single parent) quite a bit. They invited missionaries over and we discussed LDS beliefs every night for a week. but of all the differences in doctrine, we couldn't bring ourselves to believe about the three levels of heaven- it was explained to us that only 'Saints' would occupy the celestial level and be able to spend time with God, whereas our relatives who were not LDS would not only be separate from God but we would also not be able to see them. I vividly remember crying and explaining to my friend's dad why I couldn't join their church. Is this truly the case?

 

Also, at the very end of the thread I came across this:

 

Generally speaking we consider anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ as the Savior to be a Christian, yes.

 

(We do, however, believe that our version of Christianity is the most authentic. ;) )

 

HTH

 

I am wondering about this too, because my friend's sister left the church and converted to 'mainstream' Christianity, and her family shunned her for years. It seemed like it was a BIG deal, and it made me very sad for her sister. :confused:

 

Well, I personally believe there are people who are Christians in the LDS church, and people who are just outwardly following the rules, just as in any other Christian church. It all boils down to having Jesus Christ as one's Savior, Master and Lord, which can be discerned by the fruit of a person's life but truthfully we'll only know for sure about ourselves, that is, until the sheep are separated from the goats. ^^;

 

I do have some other issues with Mormon doctrine, but they are outweighed by the things I think are cool, such as the kindness (which I personally directly experienced), charity, willingness to enter politics (which many churches eschew) and most of all, you guys seem to be big Sci-Fi fans! :thumbup1:

[Xuzi]

Whew! Finally got to the end of the thread and realized it's winding down. But I do have a few questions myself that have bothered me for a few years.

 

One of my best friends from HS is LDS- in fact my family and I almost joined the church. My friend and her family befriended us and helped my mom (a single parent) quite a bit. They invited missionaries over and we discussed LDS beliefs every night for a week. but of all the differences in doctrine, we couldn't bring ourselves to believe about the three levels of heaven- it was explained to us that only 'Saints' would occupy the celestial level and be able to spend time with God, whereas our relatives who were not LDS would not only be separate from God but we would also not be able to see them. I vividly remember crying and explaining to my friend's dad why I couldn't join their church. Is this truly the case?

 

Also, at the very end of the thread I came across this:

 

 

 

I am wondering about this too, because my friend's sister left the church and converted to 'mainstream' Christianity, and her family shunned her for years. It seemed like it was a BIG deal, and it made me very sad for her sister. :confused:

 

Well, I personally believe there are people who are Christians in the LDS church, and people who are just outwardly following the rules, just as in any other Christian church. It all boils down to having Jesus Christ as one's Savior, Master and Lord, which can be discerned by the fruit of a person's life but truthfully we'll only know for sure about ourselves, that is, until the sheep are separated from the goats. ^^;

 

I do have some other issues with Mormon doctrine, but they are outweighed by the things I think are cool, such as the kindness (which I personally directly experienced), charity, willingness to enter politics (which many churches eschew) and most of all, you guys seem to be big Sci-Fi fans! :thumbup1:

It's one of those "mysteries" in LDS theology if there will be movement between the Kingdoms. *I* personally believe there will be (Scriptures clearly show that Heavenly beings are capable of "visiting" our Fallen world here, why couldn't we "visit" those in other Kingdoms) but there's no hard-and-fast Doctrine that I've ever heard about it, one way or the other.

 

ETA: It also makes me sad to hear of an LDS family "shunning" a family member who leaves the church. I have a sister and a few extended family members who have left the LDS church, and none of them have been in any way shunned, nor has the possibility of shunning them or cutting them off ever been brought up. It's certainly not a practice we're encouraged to do by Church leadership or teachings, and in fact, in recent years it's been vehemently DIScouraged.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Xuzi

[Amira]

... it was explained to us that only 'Saints' would occupy the celestial level and be able to spend time with God, whereas our relatives who were not LDS would not only be separate from God but we would also not be able to see them. I vividly remember crying and explaining to my friend's dad why I couldn't join their church. Is this truly the case?

 

There is a lot of speculation about how heaven works; I personally do not believe that I will not be able to see family members or friends who are not in the same "level" of heaven as I am. Like you, I refuse to believe that. Some Mormons do think that, but it's certainly not doctrinal, like Xuzi said.

 

As for "shunning," some families do ostracize family members who leave the church. Others don't, and we are certainly not officially encouraged to do so. Again, I can't imagine doing so, but I do understand the disappointment on both sides when someone leaves the church. It's difficult for the one who leaves and for the ones who stay, and too often it results in something like shunning.

[jennsmile]

There is a lot of speculation about how heaven works; I personally do not believe that I will not be able to see family members or friends who are not in the same "level" of heaven as I am. Like you, I refuse to believe that. Some Mormons do think that, but it's certainly not doctrinal, like Xuzi said.

 

As for "shunning," some families do ostracize family members who leave the church. Others don't, and we are certainly not officially encouraged to do so. Again, I can't imagine doing so, but I do understand the disappointment on both sides when someone leaves the church. It's difficult for the one who leaves and for the ones who stay, and too often it results in something like shunning.

 

I have a brother who has left the church. While I don't shun him some things are hard. He leads a different life that focuses on different things. While my weekends usually involve church his involve partying, drinking and smoking. I love him dearly but it is hard to see somebody you love making choices you know they were taught were wrong. I love him and his family but they do have a different set of values and sometimes they clash with my beliefs and I try to be understanding and non judging, which is sometimes easier than others.

 

I also have a friend that recently left the church and was very vocal on Facebook. He has pushed his family away. I know and love his family and I can see both sides. It is hard anytime somebody decides the things they were taught were wrong and changes their beliefs. Both sides have become defensive. The one that left thinks he is right and everyone else is wrong and he must convince them, while the others think they are right and must convince him. :confused: Hopefully time and understanding on both sides will heal the wounds.

 

But no we don't shun like the Amish. My brother is still welcome in my home, he has to bring his own coffee, smoking is on the back porch and he is welcome to drink.

[gardenmom5]

Whew! Finally got to the end of the thread and realized it's winding down. But I do have a few questions myself that have bothered me for a few years.

 

One of my best friends from HS is LDS- in fact my family and I almost joined the church. My friend and her family befriended us and helped my mom (a single parent) quite a bit. They invited missionaries over and we discussed LDS beliefs every night for a week. but of all the differences in doctrine, we couldn't bring ourselves to believe about the three levels of heaven- it was explained to us that only 'Saints' would occupy the celestial level and be able to spend time with God, whereas our relatives who were not LDS would not only be separate from God but we would also not be able to see them. I vividly remember crying and explaining to my friend's dad why I couldn't join their church. Is this truly the case?

 

NO. that's why we do temple work, so that everyone has the opportunity whether in this life, or the next. (we also believe people are free to refuse. agency to choose is one of our most important beliefs) we believe a truly just God would not exclude people from recieving His eternal blessings by virture of where/when they were born, etc. There are many in the world who don't have the opportunities to even have an unbiased exposure to chrisitanity, so how can they decide? but we believe everyone who ever lived upon the Earth will have the opportunity to hear the message for themselves, and accept or reject it.

 

I will say because my father stopped attending the protestant church he was raised in (he was a decent person), his mother believed he was going to h3ll, and wept very bitter tears over it. She died when I was 16, but I couldn't help but feel sorry for her to have such anguish.

 

 

Also, at the very end of the thread I came across this:

 

 

 

I am wondering about this too, because my friend's sister left the church and converted to 'mainstream' Christianity, and her family shunned her for years. It seemed like it was a BIG deal, and it made me very sad for her sister. :confused:

 

Well, I personally believe there are people who are Christians in the LDS church, and people who are just outwardly following the rules, just as in any other Christian church. It all boils down to having Jesus Christ as one's Savior, Master and Lord, which can be discerned by the fruit of a person's life but truthfully we'll only know for sure about ourselves, that is, until the sheep are separated from the goats. ^^;

 

I fully agree with you there - there are some who are truly trying to be Christlike, and others a little too concerned with the outer vessel. (and we all remember what the Savior said about that! ;)) I'm sorry for your friends sister, to be rejected by her family. (her family was acting very contrary to explicit church teachings to LOVE your children - even when they choose another path. Oh, and to allow others to worship as they believe.)

 

Having been reared outside the LDS church, I got to see up close and personal even in other churches some are sincere, and others are going through the motions. I attended my niece's confirmation, and while I was sad some of the "kids" (including neice) gave the impression of half-hearted/motions only, there was one little girl in particular who just shone (along with her entire family). This was a family that gave the impression of being very sincere in following their beliefs in Jesus Christ, and radiating the spirit. It warmed my heart. The world needs more people like that.

 

 

I do have some other issues with Mormon doctrine, but they are outweighed by the things I think are cool, such as the kindness (which I personally directly experienced), charity, willingness to enter politics (which many churches eschew) and most of all, you guys seem to be big Sci-Fi fans! :thumbup1:

 

sci-fi is fun. I like some Orson Scott Card . .;) one of these days, I'm sure my daughter will get me reading pratchett.

 

eta: sil has three children who no longer attend/practice LDS teachings. (one was married in a ukranian orthodox ceremony, as her husband is ukranian) they are always invited to family gatherings etc, and everyone is civil and warm and affectionate on all sides.

Edited January 7, 2012 by gardenmom5

[gamedesignmom]

Everyone, thank you for your answers.

 

Jenn,:grouphug: It is very hard when a close family member rejects beliefs you hold so dear. I wonder why there have to be so many differences, interpretations, etc., why God didn't make it more clear. Although I'm not sure He could've made Himself any clearer in the Old Testament, and yet Israel still rejected Him. :001_huh: Although the faith I was raised in does not believe in a 'second chance' of redemption once a person has died, I think every human must have an opportunity to accept or reject Christ, and if they do not receive the opportunity in this world (or they are unable to process it) then it logically follows they will have an opportunity in the next. But that's getting into theology, of which I'm a poor scholar. ^_^;

[Lovedtodeath]

Is the Mormon Church Christian

 

This is on another forum I belong to. There are a couple of preachers who say definitely not and a former Mormon (geode) who thinks so, along with a former JW who is sort of in the middle. It is very informative, especially when geode and the former JW enter into the conversation.

[MamaSheep]

Is the Mormon Church Christian

 

This is on another forum I belong to. There are a couple of preachers who say definitely not and a former Mormon (geode) who thinks so, along with a former JW who is sort of in the middle. It is very informative, especially when geode and the former JW enter into the conversation.

 

 

Good gracious. There are so many inaccuracies about our beliefs in that thread (even by the apparently LDS poster) that I don't even know where to begin. Was there anything specific in there that you wanted to discuss?

 

I am about to embark on yet another probably futile attempt to locate three or four pairs of jeans that come reasonably close to fitting dd, the human chopstick, but I'll check back in here when I get back.

[jennsmile]

Is the Mormon Church Christian

 

This is on another forum I belong to. There are a couple of preachers who say definitely not and a former Mormon (geode) who thinks so, along with a former JW who is sort of in the middle. It is very informative, especially when geode and the former JW enter into the conversation.

 

Could somebody please explain why people feel when it comes to religion you ask people that belong to another church what I believe? I wouldn't ask a Jew what a catholic believes. Nor would I ask the catholic to tell me about Jewish holidays. Yet it seems common practice for those outside my faith to be experts on my beliefs even when they have half truths or twisted beliefs.

 

I have no problem answering heartfelt questions posed by users on this forum about my beliefs. And if I ever have a question concerning other faiths I know I can ask here and get the information I seek from those that actually practice their faith. So Lovedtodeath, if you have a heartfelt sincere question about our belief I will glady answer it but I am not going to debate what is posted on another board. :)

[unsinkable]

Could somebody please explain why people feel when it comes to religion you ask people that belong to another church what I believe? I wouldn't ask a Jew what a catholic believes. Nor would I ask the catholic to tell me about Jewish holidays. Yet it seems common practice for those outside my faith to be experts on my beliefs even when they have half truths or twisted beliefs.

 

I have no problem answering heartfelt questions posed by users on this forum about my beliefs. And if I ever have a question concerning other faiths I know I can ask here and get the information I seek from those that actually practice their faith. So Lovedtodeath, if you have a heartfelt sincere question about our belief I will glady answer it but I am not going to debate what is posted on another board. :)

 

:grouphug: What a gracious response. :grouphug:

[Tabula Rasa]

Could somebody please explain why people feel when it comes to religion you ask people that belong to another church what I believe? I wouldn't ask a Jew what a catholic believes. Nor would I ask the catholic to tell me about Jewish holidays. Yet it seems common practice for those outside my faith to be experts on my beliefs even when they have half truths or twisted beliefs.

 

I have no problem answering heartfelt questions posed by users on this forum about my beliefs. And if I ever have a question concerning other faiths I know I can ask here and get the information I seek from those that actually practice their faith. So Lovedtodeath, if you have a heartfelt sincere question about our belief I will glady answer it but I am not going to debate what is posted on another board. :)

 

I read the entire thread over there. All I can say is that I am so grateful for this forum and the wonderful men and women here that can discuss beliefs without acting like the final authority :glare:. The thread over there was disheartening, especially the whole "if you don't denounce Mormonism (even if you aren't LDS), you can't be saved." :001_huh:

[Mrs Twain]

Could somebody please explain why people feel when it comes to religion you ask people that belong to another church what I believe? I wouldn't ask a Jew what a catholic believes. Nor would I ask the catholic to tell me about Jewish holidays. Yet it seems common practice for those outside my faith to be experts on my beliefs even when they have half truths or twisted beliefs.

 

I have no problem answering heartfelt questions posed by users on this forum about my beliefs. And if I ever have a question concerning other faiths I know I can ask here and get the information I seek from those that actually practice their faith. So Lovedtodeath, if you have a heartfelt sincere question about our belief I will glady answer it but I am not going to debate what is posted on another board. :)

 

With all due respect, the OP's orginal post contained a question about why a non-LDS person would not consider an LDS person a Christian. The OP did not direct the question only to LDS people. I think it is fair for non-LDS people to explain to the OP why her friend may have said what she said.

 

I didn't look at the link to the other board, but it sounded like it was a discussion by people of various viewpoints regarding the OP's original question. Of course, if you think the discussion was in error, you could explain why you disagree.

[Veritaserum]

With all due respect, the OP's orginal post contained a question about why a non-LDS person would not consider an LDS person a Christian. The OP did not direct the question only to LDS people. I think it is fair for non-LDS people to explain to the OP why her friend may have said what she said.

 

I didn't look at the link to the other board, but it sounded like it was a discussion by people of various viewpoints regarding the OP's original question. Of course, if you think the discussion was in error, you could explain why you disagree.

 

Please no bashing. A friend made a comment to me tonight that had me saying :001_huh:, and wondering why she would say it. She said Mormons aren't Christians. Why? What am I missing? If you are Mormon, do you consider yourself a Christian or not?

 

:)

[JVA]

I hope this won't be considered bashing. My dad's side of the familiy is all Mormon and I've needed to understand what they believe...actually, a lot of them have no idea what they 'believe' but just go along because of the culture they live in.....in happens in all faiths, I suppose. This article is helpful to me.

http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/morchristjesus.html

[Julie in Austin]

I hope this won't be considered bashing. My dad's side of the familiy is all Mormon and I've needed to understand what they believe...actually, a lot of them have no idea what they 'believe' but just go along because of the culture they live in.....in happens in all faiths, I suppose. This article is helpful to me.

http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/morchristjesus.html

 

Almost all of the things in that article are absolutely not LDS beliefs. Whoever put that page together doesn't understand that just because someone with a position of some authority in the church said something once, it doesn't mean that it is Church doctrine. Especially in the 19th century, you would get a lot of experimentation and speculation, but those things weren't then, and definitely aren't now, doctrine.

 

The reason that you think your family doesn't know about LDS beliefs is because you think things are LDS beliefs that aren't LDS beliefs.

[Veritaserum]

I hope this won't be considered bashing. My dad's side of the familiy is all Mormon and I've needed to understand what they believe...actually, a lot of them have no idea what they 'believe' but just go along because of the culture they live in.....in happens in all faiths, I suppose. This article is helpful to me.

http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/morchristjesus.html

 

Come on, now. You really buy that? :001_huh: And the link with the list of things we supposedly believe is grossly inaccurate to the point of being offensive. :glare:

[Xuzi]

Almost all of the things in that article are absolutely not LDS beliefs. Whoever put that page together doesn't understand that just because someone with a position of some authority in the church said something once, it doesn't mean that it is Church doctrine. Especially in the 19th century, you would get a lot of experimentation and speculation, but those things weren't then, and definitely aren't now, doctrine.

 

The reason that you think your family doesn't know about LDS beliefs is because you think things are LDS beliefs that aren't LDS beliefs.

 

Um, ya. My face as I read that list -->:001_huh:

[jennsmile]

I read the entire thread over there. All I can say is that I am so grateful for this forum and the wonderful men and women here that can discuss beliefs without acting like the final authority :glare:. The thread over there was disheartening, especially the whole "if you don't denounce Mormonism (even if you aren't LDS), you can't be saved." :001_huh:

 

:iagree:

[mommaduck]

Come on, now. You really buy that? :001_huh: And the link with the list of things we supposedly believe is grossly inaccurate to the point of being offensive. :glare:

I am curious: what would the LDS officially state for each of those bolded issues?:001_smile:

[Julie in Austin]

I am curious: what would the LDS officially state for each of those bolded issues?:001_smile:

 

Most are "no official position." If you want details, go to this website:

 

fairlds.org

 

and look up each issue.

[Melinda in VT]

I hope this won't be considered bashing. My dad's side of the familiy is all Mormon and I've needed to understand what they believe...actually, a lot of them have no idea what they 'believe' but just go along because of the culture they live in.....in happens in all faiths, I suppose. This article is helpful to me.

http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/morchristjesus.html

 

You can't correct someone on their beliefs. They know what they believe. You can argue that their beliefs don't line up with the official teachings of their declared denomination, but that's not the same thing.

 

Early LDS leaders said a lot of stuff. In my experience, it is true that many Mormons (even life-long, church-attending, well-educated Mormons) are unaware of some of the things taught by early LDS leaders. That doesn't mean that Mormons don't know what they believe. It means that they don't believe some things taught by early LDS leaders.

 

Some people decide that what matters to them is what the LDS Church officially teaches now. Others decide that the statements in question were never official teachings of the LDS Church. Others decide that the things they don't believe in are evidence that the LDS Church is not lead by prophets and is not the One True Church--and they leave and aren't Mormon anymore.

 

But you can't teach someone what they believe.

 

(Sorry. Can you tell this is still a sore point for me, even as a former Mormon? :o)

[Julie in Austin]

You can't correct someone on their beliefs. They know what they believe. You can argue that their beliefs don't line up with the official teachings of their declared denomination, but that's not the same thing.

 

Early LDS leaders said a lot of stuff. In my experience, it is true that many Mormons (even life-long, church-attending, well-educated Mormons) are unaware of some of the things taught by early LDS leaders. That doesn't mean that Mormons don't know what they believe. It means that they don't believe some things taught by early LDS leaders.

 

Some people decide that what matters to them is what the LDS Church officially teaches now. Others decide that the statements in question were never official teachings of the LDS Church. Others decide that the things they don't believe in are evidence that the LDS Church is not lead by prophets and is not the One True Church--and they leave and aren't Mormon anymore.

 

But you can't teach someone what they believe.

 

(Sorry. Can you tell this is still a sore point for me, even as a former Mormon? :o)

 

Melinda, I want to thank you for this. I always appreciate your comments on LDS topics--you are so fair-minded, something that people in the church and people who have left the church frequently are not.

[Cindy in C-ville]

You didn't cite your source, so I googled it. I was surprised to see it was from CARM. Surprised, because you later said:

 

CARM is solely run by Mr. Matt Slick, who is a Calvanist, as per his own description.

 

Admittedly, I know very little about Calvinists, but somewhere I got the impression that mainstream Christians weren't found of Calvinists either. Was I mistaken?

 

Oh, Calvinists are definitely mainstream Christians and there are quite a few of us here. The big difference between Calvinists and their counterparts, Arminians, is our view of God's sovereignty and how that plays out in regard to salvation, but we would consider the other to still be Christians. However, as sweet, dear and sincere as every Mormon I have ever met is, I still would not consider Mormons to be Christians.

 

According to this article, http://www.bible-knowledge.com/basic-tenants-of-christian-faith/, these are the basic tenets of the Christian faith:

 

1. Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal salvation with God the Father

2. We are saved by grace through faith – not by works

3. Jesus Christ is the Son of God

4. The incarnation of Jesus Christ

5. The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave

6. The ascension of Jesus Christ

7. The doctrine of the Trinity

8. The Holy Bible is the inspired and infallible Word of God

9. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation

10. Regeneration by the Holy Spirit

11. The doctrine of Hell

12. The 2nd coming of Jesus Christ back to our Earth

 

Protestants (both Arminians and Calvinists and every classification in between) and Catholics ascribe to these basic tenets although there may be some measure of difference in the way we understand these differences and apply them to our lives. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Mormons can ascribe to these statements.

 

As many have said, I truly appreciate the gracious dialogue and am thankful for the forthrightness and kindness of so many on this board!

Edited January 17, 2012 by Cindy in C-ville

[Xuzi]

Melinda, I want to thank you for this. I always appreciate your comments on LDS topics--you are so fair-minded, something that people in the church and people who have left the church frequently are not.

 

I agree. Thank you. :)

[Julie in Austin]

Oh, Calvinists are definitely mainstream Christians and there are quite a few of us here. The big difference between Calvinists and their counterparts, Armenians, is our view of God's sovereignty and how that plays out in regard to salvation, but we would consider the other to still be Christians. However, as sweet, dear and sincere as every Mormon I have ever met is, I still would not consider Mormons to be Christians.

 

According to this article, http://www.bible-knowledge.com/basic-tenants-of-christian-faith/, these are the basic tenets of the Christian faith:

 

1. Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal salvation with God the Father

2. We are saved by grace through faith – not by works

3. Jesus Christ is the Son of God

4. The incarnation of Jesus Christ

5. The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave

6. The ascension of Jesus Christ

7. The doctrine of the Trinity

8. The Holy Bible is the inspired and infallible Word of God

9. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation

10. Regeneration by the Holy Spirit

11. The doctrine of Hell

12. The 2nd coming of Jesus Christ back to our Earth

 

Protestants (both Armenians and Calvinists and every classification in between) and Catholics ascribe to these basic tenets although there may be some measure of difference in the way we understand these differences and apply them to our lives. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Mormons can ascribe to these statements.

 

As many have said, I truly appreciate the gracious dialogue and am thankful for the forthrightness and kindness of so many on this board!

 

Mormons would disagree with (7) and part of (8) (the part about infallible). Probably (9), too, I don't know what "moment of salvation" is supposed to mean.

 

There's a lot I could say about this, but I'll limit to one thing: I don't think limiting "Christian" to people who believe that the Bible is infallible is at all reasonable. Many major, mainstream Christian denominations do not believe that.

[SonshineLearner]

Mormons would disagree with (7) and part of (8) (the part about infallible). Probably (9), too, I don't know what "moment of salvation" is supposed to mean.

 

There's a lot I could say about this, but I'll limit to one thing: I don't think limiting "Christian" to people who believe that the Bible is infallible is at all reasonable. Many major, mainstream Christian denominations do not believe that.

 

Which denominations believe that the Bible is not completely true, as originally written? I can't think of one....

[Julie in Austin]

Which denominations believe that the Bible is not completely true, as originally written? I can't think of one....

 

I have a graduate degree from a Presbyterian seminary, and not a single professor or student there, to my knowledge, would have agreed with the idea of infallibility. Neither would any of the Episcopalian or Methodist students and professors I knew there. (I am not sure what the official denominational positions are; I'm just telling you what the academics were teaching 'the next generation' of pastors.)

 

Now, if you want to use a much softer definition of infallibility, such as 'infallible in the original autograph,' then that's another story, but you'd probably get LDS to consent to that belief as well.

[Caitilin]

Which denominations believe that the Bible is not completely true, as originally written? I can't think of one....

 

It is entirely possible to think of the Bible as true without thinking of it as fact. Many, many, many Christians of various churches believe, for instance, in creation without believing that it took place in 7 standard 24 hour days. :confused:

[Xuzi]

Which denominations believe that the Bible is not completely true, as originally written? I can't think of one....

 

We DO believe the Bible is completely true, as originally written, but we don't have the original writtings any more, and centuries of translations and copies of copies have caused errors to creep in.

[MamaSheep]

Almost all of the things in that article are absolutely not LDS beliefs. Whoever put that page together doesn't understand that just because someone with a position of some authority in the church said something once, it doesn't mean that it is Church doctrine. Especially in the 19th century, you would get a lot of experimentation and speculation, but those things weren't then, and definitely aren't now, doctrine.

 

The reason that you think your family doesn't know about LDS beliefs is because you think things are LDS beliefs that aren't LDS beliefs.

 

 

You're right, they did get a couple of things right here and there, but all in all it not only appears to use sources that have never been authorized sources of church doctrine (though it doesn't cite its sources very often), but it takes even that out of context and twists it. That's a really misleading article.

 

It might help people who are researching about Mormonism to understand that some early publications that are often quoted by critics of Mormonism are not now, and never were considered authoritative by the LDS church. Some are not even considered necessarily accurate. The Journal of Discourses, for example, is interesting from a historical perspective, but isn't considered an authoritative source of church doctrine. It's a publication of transcriptions of speeches given at various times by early church leaders. The transcriptionists were of varying levels of training and ability, and very few of the transcriptions were ever edited or checked for accuracy by the person who gave the speech. In some cases there were several transcriptions of a particular speech by different listeners, and the published version is sort of an amalgam of the different transcriptions. In some cases the transcriptionists were taking notes in longhand (because they hadn't been trained in shorthand), and if you've ever tried to copy down what someone is saying in a speech you know it's not easy to get it all down word for word. So certainly the JoD is historically interesting, but it's not necessarily considered 100% accurate or reliable. When we in the LDS church use quotes from the JoD they're generally snippets that are very obviously in harmony with the more official, authoritative sources of doctrine for the church, like the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. Our critics, on the other hand, like to choose snippets from the JoD that are garbled, unclear, or clearly not in harmony with church doctrine. We would consider those to be most likely either personal speculation or opinion of the speaker (as opposed to authorized doctrine of the church), or possibly transcription errors. We CERTAINLY don't consider them authoritative doctrine of the church. They've never been accepted by the church as such. However, some unscrupulous people out there seem to take great pleasure in representing them as official (and often "secret") Mormon doctrine. Other early publications that get quoted (and frequently taken out of context) would include certain issues of "The Seer"--especially the ones in which Orson Pratt overreached his authority and published some personal speculations as church doctrine. He was officially and publically reprimanded by the church leaders and publically apologized and printed a retraction, but this fact is generally conveniently overlooked by people who quote from these issues.

 

Generally speaking, I find that people who describe our teachings using official church sources, such as our scriptures, tend to at least seem to be attempting to report our beliefs accurately. People who pepper their publications with quotes from the Journal of Discourses, The Seer, the Evening and Morning Star, and other non-authoritative sources while generally ignoring what we consider to be actual sources of doctrine are usually just trying to create a sensationalistic side-show and have no concern about truth at all. It seems like checking the sources a publication quotes is often a good first step in evaluating their intent and the accuracy of their information about us. Quotes from authoritative sources are probably representative of what we actually believe (though be aware that they are often taken out of context, misrepresented, or misinterpreted in an accompanying "explanation" of our beliefs). If they have to go looking for anomalous statements from non-authoritative sources for statements to refer to as our "doctrines", they're either REALLY poor researchers or they have a not-so-honest agenda.

[MamaSheep]

I hope this won't be considered bashing. My dad's side of the familiy is all Mormon and I've needed to understand what they believe...actually, a lot of them have no idea what they 'believe' but just go along because of the culture they live in.....in happens in all faiths, I suppose. This article is helpful to me.

http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/morchristjesus.html

 

I don't think YOU are bashing, just passing on misinformation without realizing it. I agree with the previous poster, though, that this article is misleading and inaccurate to the point of being offensive. I would consider the person who wrote it to be "bashing".

[gardenmom5]

Oh, Calvinists are definitely mainstream Christians and there are quite a few of us here. The big difference between Calvinists and their counterparts, Armenians, is !

 

 

I confess, you got me here. Armenians????? Armenian to my understanding is an ETHNICITY and a language (has some good food too). My mil's father is Armenian, his parents emigrated from Turkey to Syria, and he fled to the US. He was also born, reared, and died, LDS.

 

is there an alternate meaning of this well-known/documented ethnic group I've never heard of?

[Veritaserum]

I confess, you got me here. Armenians????? Armenian to my understanding is an ETHNICITY and a language (has some good food too). My mil's father is Armenian, his parents emigrated from Turkey to Syria, and he fled to the US. He was also born, reared, and died, LDS.

 

is there an alternate meaning of this well-known/documented ethnic group I've never heard of?

 

I think that was a typo for Arminian.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

[Cindy in C-ville]

I think that was a typo for Arminian.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

 

Yep. Sorry! And now, corrected. :)

Edited January 17, 2012 by Cindy in C-ville

[SonshineLearner]

I confess, you got me here. Armenians????? Armenian to my understanding is an ETHNICITY and a language (has some good food too). My mil's father is Armenian, his parents emigrated from Turkey to Syria, and he fled to the US. He was also born, reared, and died, LDS.

 

is there an alternate meaning of this well-known/documented ethnic group I've never heard of?

Yes :) When people comment about the Arminian position in Doctrine discussions, I believe that one of the main points is the view of salvation. (spelling of Arminian -v- Armenian)

[mommaduck]

Most are "no official position." If you want details, go to this website:

 

fairlds.org

 

and look up each issue.

Strange.

[MamaSheep]

Regarding Biblical inerrancy, the LDS position is stated clearly in one of our articles of faith, which reads, "We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly...". Joseph Smith also taught, "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers," which members of the LDS church also agree with.

 

Statements like these are understood and applied within the LDS church in much the same spirit as this quote from the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, which is an interdenominational Protestant publication (if I understand correctly):

 

"We affirm that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original."

We love the Bible, believe it to be the Word of God, and study and refer to it regularly. Here are some LDS speeches and articles that expand on our beliefs regarding the Bible: http://lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=bible

[Audrey]

I am not reading the thread, but in case anyone didn't mention it, this subject has been discussed numerous times and you could search for those threads. They never end well, so they're easy to find. They're all locked and have a ton of deleted posts.

[MamaSheep]

Strange.

 

The church doesn't generally take an official position on issues about which there is little or no clear revelation. I would find it more "strange" if the church just started making stuff up to fill in perceived gaps.

 

 

For example, the Bible doesn't state that Jesus was married, but it doesn't say that he wasn't either. Therefore, the church takes no position on the subject. Some LDS people believe one way about it, and some another. Some day we'll find out, but until then it seems unwise to draw clear lines on issues where the Lord has chosen to remain silent.

 

Some of the items on the list ARE things on which the LDS church does take a position, though. For example, the church absolutely teaches that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born, and that the Holy Ghost was involved in the conception in some miraculous manner that is not clearly explained. We do, however, affirm that Jesus' literal physical father is God the Father, not the Holy Spirit. I've seen several non-LDS publications state that Brigham Young taught that God had sex with Mary to conceive Jesus. However, every time I've looked up the references (when they bother to give them) the statments made by Brigham Young have all said things to the effect that the Father was the father of Jesus in the same sense that any mortal father is the father of his children. Some (non-LDS) people evidently interpret that to mean that Brigham Young thought sex was involved, but I've never met an LDS person who interpreted it that way. I've had (non-LDS) people ask me how the Father could literally be the physical father of Jesus when it was the Holy Ghost who impregnated her, but I've always thought it a silly question, particularly in a day when fertility doctors frequently assist in the conception of babies. The doctor's facilitation of the process doesn't make the doctor the baby's father any more than the Holy Ghost's miraculous facilitation of Jesus' conception makes the Holy Ghost the father. Again, LDS doctrine is very clear that Jesus's father is The Father, that the conception was facilitated in some unexplained miraculous manner by the Holy Ghost, and that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived and born.

 

The list in the article is fairly long, and would take a while to get through. If there are a few specific items you're particularly interested in, I'd be happy to discuss them.

Edited January 17, 2012 by MamaSheep

[Pixie]

I have a question that has absolutely nothing to do with LDS doctrine but I figure this is as a good a place as any to ask. Can someone talk to me about girls' camp. We are not LDS but live in Utah and my daugter's friends want her to go to girls' camp however I have no idea what to expect. Will she be unconfortable there as a non-member? She attends young women on wednesdays most weeks with her best friend and has other friends in that ward so she loves doing that but there is big difference in something that last a couple hours and several days.

[MamaSheep]

I have a question that has absolutely nothing to do with LDS doctrine but I figure this is as a good a place as any to ask. Can someone talk to me about girls' camp. We are not LDS but live in Utah and my daugter's friends want her to go to girls' camp however I have no idea what to expect. Will she be unconfortable there as a non-member? She attends young women on wednesdays most weeks with her best friend and has other friends in that ward so she loves doing that but there is big difference in something that last a couple hours and several days.

 

If she's comfortable at mid-week young women activities, she'll most likely be comfortable at girls' camp. There will be prayers and devotionals and things along with a lot of just plain fun activities. Sometimes at girls' camp there will be a "testimony meeting", which is sort of an open mike kind of arrangement where the participants would be invited to share their thoughts about Jesus, the gospel, or whatever. You could talk to the leaders of the young women for the ward your daughter would be going with to learn more specifics of what they'll be doing. If any part of the religious aspects of camp makes her uncomfortable I'm sure everyone would understand if she just sat out for those bits and participated in just the parts she was comfortable with. They might need volunteers for chaparones and be happy to take you along too, you could ask. But honestly, if it's not something you're comfortable with, feel free to just say no.