Question about Mormons and Christianity

[Cindy in C-ville]

Regarding Biblical inerrancy, the LDS position is stated clearly in one of our articles of faith, which reads, "We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly...". Joseph Smith also taught, "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers," which members of the LDS church also agree with.

 

Statements like these are understood and applied within the LDS church in much the same spirit as this quote from the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, which is an interdenominational Protestant publication (if I understand correctly):

 

"We affirm that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original."

We love the Bible, believe it to be the Word of God, and study and refer to it regularly. Here are some LDS speeches and articles that expand on our beliefs regarding the Bible: http://lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=bible

 

I would agree with the Chicago Statement, but my personal view is that the canon of Scripture is closed and therefore Joseph Smith's writings cannot be considered Scripture.

[tricia]

Everything you'd ever want to know about Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) can be found at Mormon.org. It is a website put out by the LDS church for people who have questions about the LDS church. You can look up whatever you want freely, without feeling like someone is going to call you or send missionaries to your home. :001_smile:

 

http://mormon.org/

 

:iagree: Well, there you have it. Time to say good night! Good night!

[jennsmile]

I have a question that has absolutely nothing to do with LDS doctrine but I figure this is as a good a place as any to ask. Can someone talk to me about girls' camp. We are not LDS but live in Utah and my daugter's friends want her to go to girls' camp however I have no idea what to expect. Will she be unconfortable there as a non-member? She attends young women on wednesdays most weeks with her best friend and has other friends in that ward so she loves doing that but there is big difference in something that last a couple hours and several days.

 

I agree with Mama sheep.

 

I will add that they do have a camp book that has certification. They learn things like first aid, hiking, astronomy, and the like. I am sure can look over it ahead of time as well.

[MamaSheep]

I would agree with the Chicago Statement, but my personal view is that the canon of Scripture is closed and therefore Joseph Smith's writings cannot be considered Scripture.

 

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion on that. My personal views as to the canon of Scripture are different, but I figure your personal views are between you and God, so I won't argue about it. :)

 

Just to be clear, though, my comments in the post you quoted were referring specifically to the Bible, and were only meant to point out the similarity between the two positions on Biblical inerrancy.

[gardenmom5]

I have a question that has absolutely nothing to do with LDS doctrine but I figure this is as a good a place as any to ask. Can someone talk to me about girls' camp. We are not LDS but live in Utah and my daugter's friends want her to go to girls' camp however I have no idea what to expect. Will she be unconfortable there as a non-member? She attends young women on wednesdays most weeks with her best friend and has other friends in that ward so she loves doing that but there is big difference in something that last a couple hours and several days.

 

If it is run well, she will have a blast - even as a non-mormon, especially if she attends YW. My dd's both did camp for many years. among other things, they had hands on first aid training (and the older girls in charge of it - were really good with both make-up and acting. some of the adults thought they had a real medical emergency on their hands.;) I will add, ours always had medical personnel on site.) upset skunks, and mice over the years - and lots of mosquitos.there were stations set-up for learning skills - get a bead. learning to cook over a fire, other practical skills. singing, crafts, beads (to be cherished and shown off as they add to them every year). etc. and lots of dirt.

[MamaSheep]

I am not reading the thread, but in case anyone didn't mention it, this subject has been discussed numerous times and you could search for those threads. They never end well, so they're easy to find. They're all locked and have a ton of deleted posts.

 

I think you might be exaggerating a little bit. Most of the discussions on this topic (and related) that I've seen here have just sort of petered out after a while, and have had very few deleted posts. Most of the posters here are are mature enough to tackle delicate topics on which they know there won't be agreement with a remarkable degree of courtesy. There was one thread recently that evidently got out of hand, though, and was shut down. I missed those bits, so I don't really know what form that took.

 

I do think it's reasonable for people to ask questions about the LDS faith at a time when it's starting to look like one of the major presidential candidates could be an LDS man. I know political chatter is (very understandably!) a no-no around here, but I do think asking questions about the religion is perfectly sensible.

[Xuzi]

RE: Girls Camp

 

If your DD loves the Weds. night activities then she will likely LOVE Girl's Camp!! Goodness, I *lived* for Girl's Camp as a teen! :lol:

 

Like others said, there will be prayers (during the Flag Ceremonies at the beginning and ending of each day, plus before meals, as well as during some of the religious-themed activities), and there will be at least one Devotional-type activity each day, which will include prayer and scripture study, but they typically only last 20 minutes or so. The rest of the day is spent doing "camp-y" stuff, like short hikes, basic first aid training, learning about the stars, learning how to start camp fires, tying knots, proper flag etiquette (how to fold it, attach it to a pole, raise it, salute, lower it, and fold it back up), probably cook at least one meal over an open fire, etc.

 

The very last night is typically "Testimony Night", which, as a PP stated, is an "open mike" type night where girls can go up and share Testimonies. Your DD will be under *no* obligation to participate other than probably being present for it (unless one of the leaders is willing to stay back at her camp site with her, as every one else will be at the meeting). She can sit in the very back and read a book or something if she'd rather.

 

Darn it, now I'm really wanting to go back to Girl's Camp. :lol:

[MamaSheep]

RE: Girls Camp

 

If your DD loves the Weds. night activities then she will likely LOVE Girl's Camp!! Goodness, I *lived* for Girl's Camp as a teen! :lol:

 

Like others said, there will be prayers (during the Flag Ceremonies at the beginning and ending of each day, plus before meals, as well as during some of the religious-themed activities), and there will be at least one Devotional-type activity each day, which will include prayer and scripture study, but they typically only last 20 minutes or so. The rest of the day is spent doing "camp-y" stuff, like short hikes, basic first aid training, learning about the stars, learning how to start camp fires, tying knots, proper flag etiquette (how to fold it, attach it to a pole, raise it, salute, lower it, and fold it back up), probably cook at least one meal over an open fire, etc.

 

The very last night is typically "Testimony Night", which, as a PP stated, is an "open mike" type night where girls can go up and share Testimonies. Your DD will be under *no* obligation to participate other than probably being present for it (unless one of the leaders is willing to stay back at her camp site with her, as every one else will be at the meeting). She can sit in the very back and read a book or something if she'd rather.

 

Darn it, now I'm really wanting to go back to Girl's Camp. :lol:

 

 

Maybe we Utah WTMers should organize our own Girls' Camp. I have fond memories, but haven't been since I grew up.

 

(Except for the latrines. I don't remember the latrines fondly. We had a primitive camp, not fancy cabins like the girls around here have, and we had to dig our own latrines. The first year I went they had the first year girls do the digging, as a sort of initiation experience. The second year I was there they said there weren't enough first year girls (maybe they had gotten wind of the latrine digging...lol) so they added in the second years. For the rest of my camp years they decided it wasn't nice to make the younger, smaller girls do the digging, and the older, bigger, stronger girls should wield the shovels. I got to dig the darn things every single year. And the year after I "graduated" they started going to a camp with cabins...lol. But at least I know that in an emergency situation I know how to choose a site, dig a latrine, lash a seat for the thing, hang a privacy curtain, and lime the contents...lol. I can also cook a mean dinner in a dutch oven. But I still prefer campsites with restrooms.)

Edited January 17, 2012 by MamaSheep

[Xuzi]

If it is run well, she will have a blast - even as a non-mormon, especially if she attends YW. My dd's both did camp for many years. among other things, they had hands on first aid training (and the older girls in charge of it - were really good with both make-up and acting. some of the adults thought they had a real medical emergency on their hands.;) I will add, ours always had medical personnel on site.) upset skunks, and mice over the years - and lots of mosquitos.there were stations set-up for learning skills - get a bead. learning to cook over a fire, other practical skills. singing, crafts, beads (to be cherished and shown off as they add to them every year). etc. and lots of dirt.

 

Gorey Hikes!!! :lol: I remember my first year at girl's camp the older girls had "what to do if you're electrocuted" as one of the things they covered, and they borrowed a blow-dryer from one of the leaders (because none of the girls brought them, which is one of the things I LOVED most about GC. The lack of any expectation to "doll up"!), put on a bunch of powder, and frizzed her hair out! It was hysterical!

 

Oh, and making a "bug bite" out of vanilla pudding in a zipbloc bag and held in place with duct tape. :tongue_smilie:

 

Ahhh, camp memories. :lol:

[Veritaserum]

My favorite camp memory was a skit my ward did based on the story of Ammon watching King Lamoni's sheep. We stuff nylons to use as dismembered arms. Great fun. :tongue_smilie:

[Xuzi]

Maybe we Utahn WTMers should organize our own Girls' Camp.

 

Nah, come to Washington! You can actually camp among the trees! :D

[MamaSheep]

Nah, come to Washington! You can actually camp among the trees! :D

 

We might have to wait a year anyway. I am going to be monstrously pregnant this summer. (Yay!)

 

ETA: My SIL is from Washington.

[Xuzi]

My favorite camp memory was a skit my ward did based on the story of Ammon watching King Lamoni's sheep. We stuff nylons to use as dismembered arms. Great fun. :tongue_smilie:

 

Ha! We did that in Seminary one year!

 

Skit Night was always my favorite night. And making up silly songs to sing during Roll Call.

 

Totally Random Camp Memory:

 

In my Stake the 4th Year girls always went on a 3-day/2-night hike in the days leading up to camp (our camps were Tuesday-Saturday, we'd start on our hike on Monday and roll into camp on Wednesday morning). The year I went we had a rather difficult trail to follow, and only halfway through the first day we were already exhausted.

 

We stopped at a wide, shallow creek to take off our boots and apply mole skin to our blisters, and, since we'd been up since 5am, we were tired, hungry, totally out of our element, and all-in-all a rather bedraggled looking bunch of teenaged girls.

 

As we sat there my friend Kelly loudly proclaimed "Thank goodness there aren't any boys around!" when who should come whistling around the bend... but a troop of Boy Scouts... with some hot Scottish exchange students... on their way to the same.camp.site. we were heading for! And they GOT THERE FIRST and took the best spot, so we ended up having to pitch our tents on large stones instead of dirt. Oh it was humiliating. :lol:

 

And our skit for skit night was a reenactment of it, with really bad, fake Scottish accents. :tongue_smilie:

[jennsmile]

You all could come to Texas for LDS family camp! It rocks. Best week of the year.

[gardenmom5]

Maybe we Utah WTMers should organize our own Girls' Camp. I have fond memories, but haven't been since I grew up.

 

(Except for the latrines. I don't remember the latrines fondly. We had a primitive camp, not fancy cabins like the girls around here have, and we had to dig our own latrines. The first year I went they had the first year girls do the digging, as a sort of initiation experience. The second year I was there they said there weren't enough first year girls (maybe they had gotten wind of the latrine digging...lol) so they added in the second years. For the rest of my camp years they decided it wasn't nice to make the younger, smaller girls do the digging, and the older, bigger, stronger girls should wield the shovels. I got to dig the darn things every single year. And the year after I "graduated" they started going to a camp with cabins...lol. But at least I know that in an emergency situation I know how to choose a site, dig a latrine, lash a seat for the thing, hang a privacy curtain, and lime the contents...lol. I can also cook a mean dinner in a dutch oven. But I still prefer campsites with restrooms.)

 

I had one girl in my car going home, the VERY. FIRST. THING she did upon arrival at home, was run in the bathroom and flush the toilet.:lol: Just 'cause she could.

[MamaSheep]

Ha! We did that in Seminary one year!

 

Skit Night was always my favorite night. And making up silly songs to sing during Roll Call.

 

Totally Random Camp Memory:

 

In my Stake the 4th Year girls always went on a 3-day/2-night hike in the days leading up to camp (our camps were Tuesday-Saturday, we'd start on our hike on Monday and roll into camp on Wednesday morning). The year I went we had a rather difficult trail to follow, and only halfway through the first day we were already exhausted.

 

We stopped at a wide, shallow creek to take off our boots and apply mole skin to our blisters, and, since we'd been up since 5am, we were tired, hungry, totally out of our element, and all-in-all a rather bedraggled looking bunch of teenaged girls.

 

As we sat there my friend Kelly loudly proclaimed "Thank goodness there aren't any boys around!" when who should come whistling around the bend... but a troop of Boy Scouts... with some hot Scottish exchange students... on their way to the same.camp.site. we were heading for! And they GOT THERE FIRST and took the best spot, so we ended up having to pitch our tents on large stones instead of dirt. Oh it was humiliating. :lol:

 

And our skit for skit night was a reenactment of it, with really bad, fake Scottish accents. :tongue_smilie:

:lol::lol::lol:

[Xuzi]

I had one girl in my car going home, the VERY. FIRST. THING she did upon arrival at home, was run in the bathroom and flush the toilet.:lol: Just 'cause she could.

 

I actually would re-pitch my tent in my parents backyard first thing when I got home, because I wasn't ready to totally "leave" Girl's Camp yet. Sleeping one more night in a tent, even if I was by myself and in my own backyard, helped me readjust to my normal habitat. :lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

but I am not going to debate what is posted on another board. :)

I didn't expect a discussion at all. I just remembered the former Mormon and that rude person going back and forth and thought it might be informative to the OP.

I read the entire thread over there. All I can say is that I am so grateful for this forum and the wonderful men and women here that can discuss beliefs without acting like the final authority :glare:. The thread over there was disheartening, especially the whole "if you don't denounce Mormonism (even if you aren't LDS), you can't be saved." :001_huh:

The poster there named Teejay caused a bunch of people including myself to leave or greatly reduce their time/posts there, to be honest.

 

The thread is several months old and I remembered it being there, though I did not read it before posting a link to it... I probably should have.

that this article is misleading and inaccurate to the point of being offensive.

It seems we should only use quotes from official LDS writings if we want to be sure that we are not inadvertantly bashing. Edited January 17, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[gardenmom5]

Ha! We did that in Seminary one year!

 

Skit Night was always my favorite night. And making up silly songs to sing during Roll Call.

 

Totally Random Camp Memory:

 

In my Stake the 4th Year girls always went on a 3-day/2-night hike in the days leading up to camp (our camps were Tuesday-Saturday, we'd start on our hike on Monday and roll into camp on Wednesday morning). The year I went we had a rather difficult trail to follow, and only halfway through the first day we were already exhausted.

 

We stopped at a wide, shallow creek to take off our boots and apply mole skin to our blisters, and, since we'd been up since 5am, we were tired, hungry, totally out of our element, and all-in-all a rather bedraggled looking bunch of teenaged girls.

 

As we sat there my friend Kelly loudly proclaimed "Thank goodness there aren't any boys around!" when who should come whistling around the bend... but a troop of Boy Scouts... with some hot Scottish exchange students... on their way to the same.camp.site. we were heading for! And they GOT THERE FIRST and took the best spot, so we ended up having to pitch our tents on large stones instead of dirt. Oh it was humiliating. :lol:

 

And our skit for skit night was a reenactment of it, with really bad, fake Scottish accents. :tongue_smilie:

 

my camp memories are of my husband and his friends causing trouble (only because he loved telling those stories to our girls). they'd sneak goodies to his sister. but one year as they were crawling through the grass, pushing a cake box in front of them, there were a group of four girls abreast walking towards them. if they kept coming, they were going to step on them. when the girls stopped walking, one said "this is where barbara saw the three boys last year" they then turned and walked away. the boys were *really* tempted to stand up and call out "and we're still here" before beating a very hasty retreat.

[Veritaserum]

I actually would re-pitch my tent in my parents backyard first thing when I got home, because I wasn't ready to totally "leave" Girl's Camp yet. Sleeping one more night in a tent, even if I was by myself and in my own backyard, helped me readjust to my normal habitat. :lol:

 

Ooh, not me. :tongue_smilie: For my first year of camp we went to a really nice one that had cabins with plumbed bathrooms attached to them. There were bunk beds with mattresses in the cabins. It was great! The next year we went to a camp that had cabins, but we had to hike to the bathrooms (flushing). The next year I didn't go, but I think they were in tents in 90-100 degree heat. Not sorry to miss that. :tongue_smilie:

 

My last year was tents. I think we had flushing toilets. We were evacuated early due to a wild fire. The leaders had told the forest service that we were a big group and we'd need ample warning if they decided to close the campground. The forest service said they'd give it. Our leaders decided one morning that we should pack up and go, even though the campground was still open. As we were finishing loadin up, the rangers came in and told us we had to leave now. It was rather thrilling!

[Xuzi]

My last year was tents. I think we had flushing toilets. We were evacuated early due to a wild fire. The leaders had told the forest service that we were a big group and we'd need ample warning if they decided to close the campground. The forest service said they'd give it. Our leaders decided one morning that we should pack up and go, even though the campground was still open. As we were finishing loadin up, the rangers came in and told us we had to leave now. It was rather thrilling!

 

Our Stake rotated between 3 campgrounds, two were tents-only, one had A-frames, but they were open-ended (no doors, just tarps) and had no bunks or anything (it was also the only camp that didn't have anywhere to go swimming :( ). Our last morning of camp my first year there I pulled back the tarp to go to the bathroom and ended up standing face to face with a bear! Never happened at any of the tent-only camps we went to. :tongue_smilie:

[MamaSheep]

Oh dear. Latrines, and skunks, and boys sneaking in, fake electrocuted leaders, and skits involving dismembered arms--that is SO going to convince Karine it's safe to send her daughter. :lol::lol::lol:

 

Seriously, the things are generally very well chaparoned and all that other stuff totally makes sense in context. No really. I mean, we all went, and we turned out completely normal...;)

Edited January 17, 2012 by MamaSheep

[Xuzi]

Ya, I'm actually surprised boys were allowed to get that close to the camp! Our camps were waaaay up in the Sierra Nevadas (I grew up in California), and there was only one camp that had another largeish campground near by, and it was owned by the Boy Scouts, but there was a rather large lake in between the camps, so we never actually saw the boys. The only males at camp were two to three Priesthood holders (usually husbands of some of the camp leaders, and they generally kept themselves scarce, or they'd get squirted with squirt guns :lol: ), and then Testimony night the Bishops of all the congregations participating in the camp would come up. Other than that, no guys!

[DianeW88]

Maybe we Utah WTMers should organize our own Girls' Camp. I have fond memories, but haven't been since I grew up.

 

Only if we can go to the big girls' camp up in Heber. That place is NICE!!

[MamaSheep]

Ya, I'm actually surprised boys were allowed to get that close to the camp! Our camps were waaaay up in the Sierra Nevadas (I grew up in California), and there was only one camp that had another largeish campground near by, and it was owned by the Boy Scouts, but there was a rather large lake in between the camps, so we never actually saw the boys. The only males at camp were two to three Priesthood holders (usually husbands of some of the camp leaders, and they generally kept themselves scarce, or they'd get squirted with squirt guns :lol: ), and then Testimony night the Bishops of all the congregations participating in the camp would come up. Other than that, no guys!

 

Same here. We were in the Montana mountains and always had two or three dads who sat up by the fire at night--with guns--in case of bears. I can't imagine boys wanting to creep up on that. Plus, there was a female adult leader in every tent. And it's not like we were going to make out in the latrine after not having showered for a week.

[MamaSheep]

Only if we can go to the big girls' camp up in Heber. That place is NICE!!

 

Our ward used to have an annual overnight RS "retreat" up there, but they've been discontinued. Definitely nice. I don't know how one would go about booking a reservation, but I gather they fill up way in advance.

[dangermom]

Other than that, no guys!

 

There was this one year that we went to a camp owned by the Boy Scouts, and there were a couple of caretakers there for the summer--guys around 20. Those poor boys had obviously been warned that even talking with any girls would mean enormous trouble for them, and of course at least half of the girls wouldn't leave them alone. They were terrified of us.

 

Otherwise, no boys except for 40+ dads, ever.

 

My 11yo will be 12 this summer and is hugely looking forward to girls' camp. I'm so glad that she'll be 12 in time, what a bummer for her if she wasn't. The camp is a new one, just opened last year. I don't know if they've got cabins, but they've got a COPE course and archery!

[DianeW88]

Our ward used to have an annual overnight RS "retreat" up there, but they've been discontinued. Definitely nice. I don't know how one would go about booking a reservation, but I gather they fill up way in advance.

 

Well, dang it...we'll just have to stay at the Grand America and call it Girls' Camp. ;)

[Xuzi]

There was this one year that we went to a camp owned by the Boy Scouts, and there were a couple of caretakers there for the summer--guys around 20. Those poor boys had obviously been warned that even talking with any girls would mean enormous trouble for them, and of course at least half of the girls wouldn't leave them alone. They were terrified of us.

 

Otherwise, no boys except for 40+ dads, ever.

 

My 11yo will be 12 this summer and is hugely looking forward to girls' camp. I'm so glad that she'll be 12 in time, what a bummer for her if she wasn't. The camp is a new one, just opened last year. I don't know if they've got cabins, but they've got a COPE course and archery!

 

Ooooooh my goodness, I'd totally forgotten about the very first time I went to Girl's Camp as a leader! It was much the same situation you described (except the camp was owned by 4-H), and there was "Lawn Mower Boy" (cue deepened voice and a "knowing" waggle of the eyebrows). He was almost always riding around on a John Deere, and all the girls (and many of the leaders :tongue_smilie: ) would stop and gawk at him when he went by. It must have been incredibly awkward for the poor kid. :lol:

[MamaSheep]

Well, dang it...we'll just have to stay at the Grand America and call it Girls' Camp. ;)

 

I could totally go for that. There's definitely something to be said for air conditioning around here in the summertime, whether you're monstrously pregnant or not.

 

Ooooooh my goodness, I'd totally forgotten about the very first time I went to Girl's Camp as a leader! It was much the same situation you described (except the camp was owned by 4-H), and there was "Lawn Mower Boy" (cue deepened voice and a "knowing" waggle of the eyebrows). He was almost always riding around on a John Deere, and all the girls (and many of the leaders :tongue_smilie: ) would stop and gawk at him when he went by. It must have been incredibly awkward for the poor kid. :lol:

 

He wasn't wearing a kilt by any chance, was he?:D

[Xuzi]

He wasn't wearing a kilt by any chance, was he?:D

 

:lol:

[gardenmom5]

Nah, come to Washington! You can actually camp among the trees! :D

 

where are you? where's your favorite place to camp? we usually do cougar rock at rainier, but there are places I'd love to try.

[gardenmom5]

Oh dear. Latrines, and skunks, and boys sneaking in, fake electrocuted leaders, and skits involving dismembered arms--that is SO going to convince Karine it's safe to send her daughter. :lol::lol::lol:

 

Seriously, the things are generally very well chaparoned and all that other stuff totally makes sense in context. No really. I mean, we all went, and we turned out completely normal...;)

 

 

we had no fake electorcuted leaders - we had fake bear attack victim girls, and fake compound fracture girls. the leaders weren't part of the make-up or acting, which is why for a while, they weren't sure the injuries were fake. ;)

 

it's a great experience.

[Xuzi]

where are you? where's your favorite place to camp? we usually do cougar rock at rainier, but there are places I'd love to try.

 

I've actually only been on church-spondered camp-outs. :tongue_smilie: I can't remember where our Girl's Camps that I've been to have been held, because it seems to change every few years (several camps closed, or were sold to new owners who didn't want church groups). We camped on Vashon Island one year, which was totally awesome! And we went to another camp on the peninsula, but I can't for the life of me remember where exactly it was. It just took a loooooooong time to get there. (I'm in SW Washington, right near the Columbia River)

[gardenmom5]

Ya, I'm actually surprised boys were allowed to get that close to the camp!!

Millersylvannia outside of Olympia. they had real cabins. dh and his friends came through the woods and were never caught - they'd look up through the trees to see where they were. they were bringing junk food for his little sister and the other girls in her cabin. He'd leave it on their porch. so no actual contact with any girls. he took me there once - I was NOT impressed. the trees were sparse! though for a girls camp, it was cushy.

 

I've actually only been on church-spondered camp-outs. :tongue_smilie: I can't remember where our Girl's Camps that I've been to have been held, because it seems to change every few years (several camps closed, or were sold to new owners who didn't want church groups). We camped on Vashon Island one year, which was totally awesome! And we went to another camp on the peninsula, but I can't for the life of me remember where exactly it was. It just took a loooooooong time to get there. (I'm in SW Washington, right near the Columbia River)

 

Our stake girls camp has been going to Ensign Ranch off I-90 for as long as I can remember. all A-frames and biffy's. Port-a-potties were an improvement. I do find it interesting that there are girls camp songs that go through my head (dd would sing them at home) - and I never went to girls camp! but there are ponies for riding, and a (small) river for swimming and floating.

 

the scouts often changed locations, ds's favorite was on the kitsap penninsula. dh and I both grew up camping with our families, so we camp on our own - preferably, somewhere with trees. I'm ready for an RV. Vashon is nice - short ferry ride to seattle or tacoma, but feels very rurual.

 

Oh, San Juan State park, on san juan, was the BEST. no privacy for lack of trees, but it is a state park, and it overlooks the water across from victoria- and the Orcas go by at least twice a day. we had a flock of wild turkey's fly into camp one morning - boy were they loud! and they were hysterical! oh, there is DESERT at the south end of san juan. it's great for history - british camp and american camp and the almost war over a pig. we went to the island last april, when it was snowing in everett, and we had sunny shirt sleeve weather in friday harbor as well as the B&B we were staying at on the west side of sj. (we'd go up to roche harbor for dinner, and it would be raining. we'd go back to the B&B and it was sunny.)

Edited January 17, 2012 by gardenmom5

[mamakven]

forgive me if this has already been covered- i've NOT read all 29 pgs :lurk5: but my understanding is that the argument is that they are not Christian because of them being polytheists. Others who have left the faith have said that as you get deeper into it, its revealed that each good LDS man will be god of his own planet. If you believe that, i'd say that you weren't a Christian. That said, if for whatever reason an LDS person did NOT believe that, then I'd say they would be. I think its based more on the individual than the faith as a whole.

 

While i disagree with Mormon theology for this and other reasons, i think the Mormons have it so very right in every other respect. I LOVE how they have teachers, i LOVE how they share their faith, i love how family centered they are.

[Esperella]

I'm an ex LDS living in Utah County. My sons are the first not blessed in the church in many generations. My entire family on my mother's side is LDS, and I love them very much. The way we've been treated as "apostates" here in Utah,(we moved here a little over a year ago) caused me to look further into the mormon church. I was so desperate for my son to have friends and to be included I'd considered rejoining. I will admit it's worse for us here because my husband and I both have a lot of tattoos, but tattoos don't change God's love for you:001_smile: Anyway, my research led me far away from the LDS church and towards the bible, and I became Christian a few months ago!

 

I do not think the calling of Christian is important. What is important is if you're saved or not. There is not enough space here to fully delve into my reasons for not believing that the LDS church follows the same God of the bible, so I'm posting links to a website that explains some of my problems with the church. Here is a great site for seeing the contradictions of the bible and the BoM. It also shows some of the changes in the 1830's BoM to the 1981 edition though there are many more. It shows archaeological problems in the BoM, and false prophesies of Joseph Smith.

 

It's also difficult for me to know some of what Brigham Young said, and trying to reconcile it against a loving God. If he is truly a prophet:

A prophet is a teacher. He receives revelations from the Lord. These may be new truths or explanations of truths already received" (A. Theodore Tuttle, "What Is a Living Prophet?," Ensign, Jul 1973, 18).

then they believe what he said is representative of the Lord. Reading through parts of the Journal of Discourse you can see how that is truly upsetting. Here are some examples:

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. - JoD: vol.10 p. 110: (March 8, 1863)

Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to. - JoD 11:272 (Dec 23, 1866)

Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be ****ed; and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be ****ed. - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

If you find your brother in bed with your wife, and you put a javelin through them both, you would be justified and they would atoned for their sins and be received into the kingdom of God. ... "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it;" -JoD, 3:247 1856

And yet there are towns, museums, schools, shrines all over Utah promoting his greatness.

 

The bible is clear that God does not change, Malachi 3:6, James 1:17, Isaiah 40:8. God is also clear that there should be no racism (really awesome site with bible verses against racism). Yet all you have to do is google racism and the LDS church to see beliefs far to the contrary. Here is something a bit closer to present times:

At the October 1960 LDS Church Conference, Spencer Kimball utilized 2 Nephi 30:6 when he stated how the Indians "are fast becoming a white and delightsome people." He said, "The [indian] children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation" (Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3).

During the same message Kimball referred to a 16-year-old Indian girl who was both LDS and "several shades lighter than her parents..." He went on to say, "These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated."

I know many people over the years have used the bible to justify racism, but the difference is none of them claimed to be prophets. And that is an important to understand, I believe.

 

It's truly not about picking on someone or trying to bash anyone. Its about not being ashamed of the truth of the bible:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

Romans 1:16, KJV

I also don't expect to change anyone's minds. But you can't look at the truths of the bible and the truths of the BoM and believe they're the same religion. Muslims believe in God, and that Jesus was a prophet, but they are not Christians. That doesn't make them bad people, it's just the truth about their religion. My entire point is that I just dont understand the need to be classified a Christian, when our beliefs are so different.

[Forget-Me-Not]

The Journal of Discourses is not considered doctrinal by the LDS church.

 

For those interested in accurate information about the LDS faith, please go to either

 

http://www.lds.org

 

OR

 

http://www.mormon.org

 

both of these are official websites maintained by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (aka 'LDS' or 'Mormons').

 

There have been many links recently with 'information' that is either completely wrong or severely distorted.

 

And, I believe I speak for many LDS members of this board, as well as myself, when I say that we always welcome sincere questions and respectful discussion.

Edited January 17, 2012 by LemonPie

[Esperella]

I was LDS for many years, and like I said my family is. I'm not being disrespectful, nor am I trying to be offensive. If we're studying the same things and coming to different conclusions, that means we have a difference of opinion. Not that I'm wrong, or your wrong, or that I'm attacking anyone.

[MamaSheep]

forgive me if this has already been covered- i've NOT read all 29 pgs :lurk5: but my understanding is that the argument is that they are not Christian because of them being polytheists. Others who have left the faith have said that as you get deeper into it, its revealed that each good LDS man will be god of his own planet. If you believe that, i'd say that you weren't a Christian. That said, if for whatever reason an LDS person did NOT believe that, then I'd say they would be. I think its based more on the individual than the faith as a whole.

 

While i disagree with Mormon theology for this and other reasons, i think the Mormons have it so very right in every other respect. I LOVE how they have teachers, i LOVE how they share their faith, i love how family centered they are.

 

I honestly can't remember if this was covered in this thread or not. I couldn't find it quickly, so I did a search and came up with this post from a previous thread that talks about this idea. I hope you find it helpful.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3415681&postcount=174

[MamaSheep]

I'm an ex LDS living in Utah County. My sons are the first not blessed in the church in many generations. My entire family on my mother's side is LDS, and I love them very much. The way we've been treated as "apostates" here in Utah,(we moved here a little over a year ago) caused me to look further into the mormon church. I was so desperate for my son to have friends and to be included I'd considered rejoining. I will admit it's worse for us here because my husband and I both have a lot of tattoos, but tattoos don't change God's love for you:001_smile: Anyway, my research led me far away from the LDS church and towards the bible, and I became Christian a few months ago!

 

I do not think the calling of Christian is important. What is important is if you're saved or not. There is not enough space here to fully delve into my reasons for not believing that the LDS church follows the same God of the bible, so I'm posting links to a website that explains some of my problems with the church. Here is a great site for seeing the contradictions of the bible and the BoM. It also shows some of the changes in the 1830's BoM to the 1981 edition though there are many more. It shows archaeological problems in the BoM, and false prophesies of Joseph Smith.

 

It's also difficult for me to know some of what Brigham Young said, and trying to reconcile it against a loving God. If he is truly a prophet: then they believe what he said is representative of the Lord. Reading through parts of the Journal of Discourse you can see how that is truly upsetting. Here are some examples:

And yet there are towns, museums, schools, shrines all over Utah promoting his greatness.

 

The bible is clear that God does not change, Malachi 3:6, James 1:17, Isaiah 40:8. God is also clear that there should be no racism (really awesome site with bible verses against racism). Yet all you have to do is google racism and the LDS church to see beliefs far to the contrary. Here is something a bit closer to present times:

I know many people over the years have used the bible to justify racism, but the difference is none of them claimed to be prophets. And that is an important to understand, I believe.

 

It's truly not about picking on someone or trying to bash anyone. Its about not being ashamed of the truth of the bible:

I also don't expect to change anyone's minds. But you can't look at the truths of the bible and the truths of the BoM and believe they're the same religion. Muslims believe in God, and that Jesus was a prophet, but they are not Christians. That doesn't make them bad people, it's just the truth about their religion. My entire point is that I just dont understand the need to be classified a Christian, when our beliefs are so different.

 

I was LDS for many years, and like I said my family is. I'm not being disrespectful, nor am I trying to be offensive. If we're studying the same things and coming to different conclusions, that means we have a difference of opinion. Not that I'm wrong, or your wrong, or that I'm attacking anyone.

 

I don't think anyone here has accused you of attacking anyone. I agree that we have a difference of opinion, and I'm glad you found a belief system where you can be happy.

 

As has been mentioned already, most of the quotes you posted come from the Journal of Discourses, which has NEVER been accepted as an authorized source of official doctrine or teachings of the church, and at least portions of which are considered to be of questionable accuracy due to lack of training of the transcriptionist recording the speeches, as well as the fact that the speeches were not edited or checked for accuracy by the person who had given the speech. Some of the speeches published in the JoD are mash-ups of records taken by several transcriptionists, and the texts of the different transcriptionists didn't always agree. In the church it's considered to be a publication of historic interest, but not a reliable source of church doctrine.

 

That said, as far as I can tell the quotes you posted represent personal opinions of the speakers. While we believe that God is infallible, we certainly do not ascribe that characteristic to prophets. Prophets all through history have been known to hold incorrect personal opinions and even to misbehave in various ways. Examples from the Bible could include Jonah, who was fully confinced that Nineveh would be destroyed, even to the point of building a shelter from which to watch the fireworks (I've often wondered how he could be so bloodthirsty as to treat the destruction of an entire city as a spectator sport). He was, of course, wrong in his opinion, as God explained to him and he was kind enough to record so we could learn from his experience. Noah got seriously drunk. Judah, patriarch of his tribe, slept with his daughter-in-law, whom he mistook for a "harlot". Moses killed a man. Prophets are human. They make mistakes. Sometimes they misunderstand or misinterpret (Jonah, again, seems to have missed, or misunderstood the part where God said the people of Nineveh could repent and be saved). Peter held the opinion that no race other than Jews should be taught the gospel, all the way up until he had a vision instructing him otherwise. Only Jesus Christ has ever lived a perfect life. I understand that for you the quotes you posted are a big deal. That's ok, you're certainly entitled to form your own opinions about such things and act on them as you see fit. For me, a few cherry-picked, out of context personal opinions from men who admitted to being imperfect and to have room to learn, are not sufficient for me to throw out piles and piles of amazing prophecy given when prophets were acting in their prophetic role, which I find to be in harmony with the Bible, which the Holy Spirit has testified to me really does come from God, and by following which I find myself drawn ever closer to God. Kind of like I don't throw out the Psalms, even though David (whom Paul refers to as a prophet) committed adultery and held the mistaken opinion that he could cover it up by murdering an innocent man. Sometimes even prophets do and say some dumb things. Again, I understand that you view these things differently, and that's fine. I'm not attacking your point of view, only explaining my own, and as you say we just have a difference of opinion on the subject.

 

Racism is certainly a complex issue within the church, the scope of which would take a lot more than a blurb on an internet forum to really understand. (Here's a website with some interesting history and other info for those who want to dig further in: http://www.blacklds.org/history) However, the Book of Mormon is quite clear on the subject: "33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26:33). And interestingly, it was under President Kimball, whom you quoted above, that the priesthood was officially extended to all male members of the church, regardless of race. Again, I understand that you might view race issues in the LDS church differently than I do, and that's fine. As you say, we just have a difference of opinion.

 

I'm sure we have differences of opinion over a lot of the kinds of things on the web site you referred to. I've looked up a lot of those kinds of quotes from the JoD and other sources over the years, and I've looked into several "false prophecy" lists, and my opinion (which I understand you do not share) is that a great many of those things have been stretched and warped and cherry-picked to the point where the way they are used bears very little resemblance to the original meaning and context. I actually found it rather disturbing that people would go to such lengths to warp what Joseph Smith said, or what the church teaches. For those who look into it, I would encourage you to seek discussion of those issues from BOTH sides before you draw conclusions. But by all means, go draw your own conclusions. I found it very eye-opening regarding the character of the people who write this stuff up (although I'm sure some of them are just repeating misinformation given to them by people they trust and they have no idea of the actual, historical context of the stuff).

 

Anyway...again, it's a matter of opinion, and I suppose I'm as entitled to mine as anyone else is. ;)

Edited January 17, 2012 by MamaSheep

[MamaSheep]

P.S. Esperella, toward the end of your first post you wrote this: "My entire point is that I just dont understand the need to be classified a Christian, when our beliefs are so different."

 

Here's the thing. Christ is my Savior and my Redeemer. He suffered and died for me--for ME, undeserving as I am. It is only through Him that I can be forgiven of my sins. He is the Holy Messiah. He is the embodied Jehovah. He is the Only Begotten Son of the Father. He is my hope and my salvation. He is the way, the truth, and the life, and only by Him can I come to my Father. I love Him with all my heart and strive to follow Him, and I look to Him daily for guidance and lean on His able arm as I go through my days. I'm certain that you and others out there would be a lot more "comfortable" if I would deny that and say ok, have it your way, and give up any claim on the title "Christian". But the thing is I can't. I just can not disassociate myself from my Lord just to make other people more comfortable. I just can't. It would feel like such a betrayal of One who has done so much for me, of One whom I love deeply. I can't do it. For me it's not a "classification", it's a reality. He is my Savior; I am His. I will not deny it, no matter who is upset by my insistance on saying so.

 

You say our beliefs are very different, and I'm sure that's true (though if that website you referred to is any indication, not necessarily in the ways that you might think). If you're not willing to share a "classification" of Christian with me, that's fine--but I can't walk away from it, so it'll have to be you. I'm happy to include you in that circle, though, if you want to stay. But Christ is my Savior. PLEASE do not ask me to deny Him. I have never understood how other people who claim the title "Christian" could ever ask someone--anyone--to do that. And honestly, if you don't understand the need to be clear about your relationship with Christ, then you must feel very differently about Him than I do. I'm not saying that to be snide or to attack you or anything, I just honestly don't see how you would not understand this otherwise.

Edited January 17, 2012 by MamaSheep

[gardenmom5]

The Journal of Discourses is not considered doctrinal by the LDS church.

 

For those interested in accurate information about the LDS faith, please go to either

 

http://www.lds.org

 

OR

 

http://www.mormon.org

 

both of these are official websites maintained by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (aka 'LDS' or 'Mormons').

 

There have been many links recently with 'information' that is either completely wrong or severely distorted.

 

And, I believe I speak for many LDS members of this board, as well as myself, when I say that we always welcome sincere questions and respectful discussion.

 

:iagree: and just as we would ask those who are actually practising their own faith what they believe - as we want accurate information not someone's opinon or spurious source - we have enough respect for those on the board to ask only them what they believe, not someone outside their faith or who has left their faith.

[Esperella]

I'm not asking you to do anything. I am just trying to understand.

 

And while you think my quotes are cherry picked, they are, in fact, quotes of your prophets. The people you mentioned above did not sin in the name of the Lord. Of course all men sin. But the difference is that Brigham Young said the things he said as a direct revelation from God. People looked to him as a voice of God. And it was by no means just Brigham Young. The church has a VERY long history of being extremely racist.

 

It's difficult for me to talk about race issues, because my mother married a black man and was excommunicated from the LDS church. I dont find president Kimball's message comforting at all because I find the events leading up to his revelations suspicious. If you research it, you will see the public pressure from outside the church (possibility of losing tax exempt status, boycotts of sporting games from other teams, a new temple in Brazil where most people were of mixed race, therefore the old statement of, "The Church had publicly stated that people could not enter the temple if they "had even a drop of negro blood" was causing difficulties, as was pressure from the boy scouts) could have caused this revelation. It's not comforting to me because I know what it's like to lose all your friends because your mom is with a "negro". So, yes, the back ground of the church's stance with regards to race IS truly important to me.

 

It was never my intentions to hurt your feelings. If you look from my point of view, and try to prove the BoM through the bible, its almost impossible. It is different for you because you're reading the bible through the lens of the BoM and other church doctrine. To ME it seems like the LDS teachings add and twist a lot of biblical scripture.

 

 

I understand the LDS faith comes into question a lot, but I'm not some random person who went poking around online one day. I pull my beliefs from real life experiences. Just the other day I had 2 young men over for dinner, who told me they were not invited to their families Christmas because they no longer wished to attend church. My son was excluded from so many preschool events we eventually pulled him out of school. People here only associate with non mormons on their own turf. Yes, you can come play with my son, but only if you come to "insert whatever church function" with us!. Or "yes, lets hang out! my ward is having a bbq!". Its a complete dismissal of other's rights to their own beliefs. In fact, we've not been able to join a homeschool group because they're ALL LDS related. I'm on a secular homeschool mailing list and just the other day got 4 emails pertaining to those in apostasy. I do understand what it's like to have your faith come under attack, constantly, every day I'm here.

 

I know that people in all faiths often misrepresent their church's teachings. I'm not trying to pin it as being a distinctly LDS issue. It is difficult when there is an outward refusal to admit any wrong doings on the part of the LDS church however.

 

I truly hope I did not hurt your feelings. I dont think it's fair that the LDS church is becoming some sort of sacred cow, where people can't disagree with the teachings without it turning into an issue of persecution. People do, at times, have to just agree to disagree. I said it in my first post, I dont have any intentions of changing anyone's mind. I go to family functions all the time and never say anything. I love my grandparents and cousins and aunts and uncles very dearly. We just choose to realize we disagree, and we're still able to love each other.

[Esperella]

:iagree: and just as we would ask those who are actually practising their own faith what they believe - as we want accurate information not someone's opinon or spurious source - we have enough respect for those on the board to ask only them what they believe, not someone outside their faith or who has left their faith.

 

I dont understand why someone who was deeply ingrained in your faith, and left it or was excommunicated (can I tell you how COMPLETELY and TOTALLY heartbroken my mother was? really? she has never gotten over it) has lost any or all rights to express their opinions about your church?

[ma23peas]

:iagree: and just as we would ask those who are actually practising their own faith what they believe - as we want accurate information not someone's opinon or spurious source - we have enough respect for those on the board to ask only them what they believe, not someone outside their faith or who has left their faith.

 

This is unfair and exclusionary, I believe anyone who has experience with a faith has an authentic opinion and their experiences are just as valid as one who stays in a faith or denomination.

 

I noticed that Romney's wife's family was not allowed to attend the Mormon ceremonies when they married, I know few religions with such exclusionary mandates.

[sewingmama]

It's difficult for me to talk about race issues, because my mother married a black man and was excommunicated from the LDS church.

 

I'm not wanting to pry into personal things but did I read right - that you said your mother was ex-communicated because she married a black man? Are you sure that was the reason? (not that I'm doubting you or anything).

 

The only reason I ask is that I know many mixed LDS marriages here in Australia and none of them have been ex-communicated. I'm not sure if they did it years ago but they don't now in any case.

 

If your mother wanted to come back I don't see why she wouldn't be accepted. I understand she might have hard feelings though if that was the reason she was ex'd.

 

I'm only asking because I truly don't get it.

 

Any other LDS person know of this happening in past history? Did it use to be a church practice? I've never heard of it.

[Melinda in VT]

This is unfair and exclusionary, I believe anyone who has experience with a faith has an authentic opinion and their experiences are just as valid as one who stays in a faith or denomination.

 

:iagree:

 

If I'm considering buying a Honda, I'm going to want to hear from both happy Honda owners and those who owned a Honda and had a bad experience and will now never own a Honda again.

 

Some of the critiques of Mormonism I have read are hilariously wrong. On the other hand, a lot of the apologetic writings I have read make me bang my head and scream with frustration. Each person needs to weigh sources carefully and make their own determination about which sources are good.

 

Now, I come at this from the perspective of someone who is trying to decide if Mormonism is True. If you are just interested in knowing what the person next door is hearing in church on Sunday, then I agree that official sources are the best source of information.

[Xuzi]

:iagree: and just as we would ask those who are actually practising their own faith what they believe - as we want accurate information not someone's opinon or spurious source - we have enough respect for those on the board to ask only them what they believe, not someone outside their faith or who has left their faith.

 

Weeeeellll.... yes and no. I can certainly understand not going to someone who's experience with the faith is as an "outside observer", but I wouldn't completely discredit an ex-member's experience, although I'd usually take it with a grain of salt. (and that's true for ex-members of any religion. I've seen many ex-Catholics say "They worship Mary!" when, according to the believing Catholics here, that's not in anyway true, or is a distortion of the truth of what their relationship with Mary actually IS.)

 

So, no, I wouldn't completely discount it, but whether I'm asking a current or former member, I'd compare what they say to what the church (any church) says it actually believes as "official church doctrine", because many times people misunderstand, or add their own personal spin on a doctrine that can appear contradictory to someone who doesn't have an in-depth knowledge of that particular faith.

[mommaduck]

Weeeeellll.... yes and no. I can certainly understand not going to someone who's experience with the faith is as an "outside observer", but I wouldn't completely discredit an ex-member's experience, although I'd usually take it with a grain of salt. (and that's true for ex-members of any religion. I've seen many ex-Catholics say "They worship Mary!" when, according to the believing Catholics here, that's not in anyway true, or is a distortion of the truth of what their relationship with Mary actually IS.)

 

So, no, I wouldn't completely discount it, but whether I'm asking a current or former member, I'd compare what they say to what the church (any church) says it actually believes as "official church doctrine", because many times people misunderstand, or add their own personal spin on a doctrine that can appear contradictory to someone who doesn't have an in-depth knowledge of that particular faith.

In this particular case, a person would have to compare it to the teachings of the time that her mother got married AND to current teachings, since the LDS beliefs seem to be in a constant state of flux.