Shyness vs. Rudeness

[justamouse]

Extroverted behavior is consider polite, introverted behavior is consider rude. Since there are more extroverts than introverts, they get to make the rules. Me personally, I find it quite distressing that we are trying change introverts inate personalities by bending young children to the socially acceptable norm. Some people are shy. Most of them will learn to cope and manage in their own ways over time without some extrovert telling them the correct way to do it. This is a case where I thoroughly support respecting your child's own personal core being and not trying to force them to be someone that they are not.

 

Could you imagine for just a moment the rules were reverse and the introverts were in charge and it was considered rude to talk to someone unless it was absolutely neccesary? If small talk was considered rude. If it was rude to intrude on a person's personal space and share your latest thought with them when they may be considering very important issues in their own life. My guess is that if you are an extrovert, no you can not. Hopefully, just one person has reconsidered that they personally may know the best way to fix introverts.

 

Totally, totally, totally this. :iagree:

[Jilly]

Extroverted behavior is consider polite, introverted behavior is consider rude. Since there are more extroverts than introverts, they get to make the rules. Me personally, I find it quite distressing that we are trying change introverts inate personalities by bending young children to the socially acceptable norm. Some people are shy. Most of them will learn to cope and manage in their own ways over time without some extrovert telling them the correct way to do it. This is a case where I thoroughly support respecting your child's own personal core being and not trying to force them to be someone that they are not.

 

:iagree:

 

I was extremely shy as a child, and although I had a very extroverted mother, she never tried to change me. I was allowed to be who I was, and slowly I was able to come out of my shell more and more. Today I am quite happy with who I am. Some days I enjoy the company of others, and some days I am happy to be alone in my own little world.

 

My youngest son struggled with selective mutism for years. He didn't talk to anyone besides me and the twins for a long time, and I never forced the issue. Slowly over the years he has talked to more and more people. This summer he began to talk to everyone, but it was a long journey. I am so glad that I never forced the issue. He is very happy and talkative today, but he may not have come this far if I had made him feel bad for not talking. My mom was my role model for my dealings with my son, and I am very thankful for all she taught me when I was younger.

[justamouse]

 

BTW, I have learned how to put on the "extrovert suit" when necessary, but it is exhausting - like "go to my cave for 3 days" exhausting. When I am tired, I have been known to take a circuitous route through the grocery store to avoid making small-talk, especially with people who make me uncomfortable.

 

I am totally the same way. We've been out all day today, dealing with sales people, eating out, and yep,I put on the extrovert suit and for the next three days I am going to HOLE up and recover.

[bugs]

My daughter was a very shy little girl. Now she is not. We had friends (mostly the dads) whom she would rarely talk to. Then one day friend-dad started talking to her without making eye contact and she responded. That was the turning point. Anyway, I appreciated that my friends allowed her to be shy and just worked within the parameters of her personality.

[In2why]

To me, it depends on the age. I'd excuse it in a three or four year old. Somewhere around 6-7, the parent may need to coach the child with comments like, "Say hello to Mrs. Smith." Then saying hello becomes a matter of obedience to mom and not just as a matter of politeness vs. shyness.

 

I agree. I think if a child is still so shy they cant or wont interact with society at 6 or 7 it is probably time for an evaluation or therapies.

[QuirkyKapers]

I will admit to not reading every single reply but it seems that some consider politeness and being extroverted as the same thing. Speaking when spoken to is a politeness issue imho. I am naturally introverted but I don't think that gives me a pass for being rude.

:iagree: I think you politely answer when spoken too, however, I think the age of the child makes a big difference. I don't think you need to engage in further chit chat if you are uncomfortable. As adult, I um hum a lot. I am not a big small talker. My brain freezes up. My kids went to preschool and my son would not look the teacher in the eye and say hello. This happened every.single.day. Every day I would coach him on what to do. It didn't matter. He wouldn't acknowledge the teacher. The teacher said something to me at one point that he better work on that. I remember thinking, "What is the big deal?". I think you need to look at each situation and child because for some it is easier than others.

[justamouse]

Where is that country? I want to move there. LOL

:iagree:

[bnrmom]

Interestingly, I've noticed that it not a social demand for adults to chat with children when greeting/chatting with their parents; most don't. Those who do like children and are tolerant of them. When the Mrs.Johnsons of the world who merely greet the Mrs. Joneses while ignoring their children, we do not think it's appropriate to embarrass the Mrs. Johnsons by pointing out how the children were not greeted as well.

 

 

 

This is an excellent point. We constantly run into situations where my kids are trying to say hello or share an experience or tell someone something neat that happened and the adult completely ignores them. Now, I don't expect everyone to be as interested in my kids as I am, but I do think we need to give pause as to why we expect a higher level of social interaction from a 4yo than we do an adult.

[Pretty in Pink]

I agree. I think if a child is still so shy they cant or wont interact with society at 6 or 7 it is probably time for an evaluation or therapies.

 

I completely disagree. My eldest was still painfully shy at ages 6 and 7 but is quite outgoing now, at 13. He converses easily with adults and children of all ages. He is neurotypical. He was just shy.

 

I was still painfully shy at 12 and 13. I am neurotypical. The problem wasn't me, it was my abusive home environment. Shyness is a coping mechanism. As an adult, I have learned how to politely interact with those around me and even to enjoy those interactions.

 

I don't consider shy children to be rude at all. There is no malice in their behavior. It is an age appropriate behavior. I feel that adults should be understanding of shyness in children.

[Joanne]

Read pages 1 and 2.........

 

I agree that children need to be gently coached on the social expectations. They don't automatically "know." In addition, the adult/child interaction can be anxiety-laden because of the expectations, power differential, and the child intuiting that their parent expects them to act in "X" manner.

 

I've coached my kids on how the energy they feel in certain situations (which comes off as goofy/odd/rude/misbehavior) needs to be channeled. This was especially true when they were younger and I owned a daycare; they got the worst when adults were at the door. More recently, it was discussions about the impetus to laugh at inappropriate times.

 

HOWEVER, I think calling hide behind mama behavior in a child "rude" is, well, rude. I think it's too heavy, and lacks understanding of developmental realities. Most non-special needs children are going to outgrow this stage, and to insist on them growing up in an instant in public, and on the spot is unkind.

 

Coach them, role play, practice. And then expect them to act like children. :)

[*********]

I've coached my kids on how the energy they feel in certain situations (which comes off as goofy/odd/rude/misbehavior) needs to be channeled. This was especially true when they were younger and I owned a daycare; they got the worst when adults were at the door.

 

Ha! Sounds *exactly* like how my kids act when I'm on the phone. :D

[MeaganS]

I get what you and the speaker are saying, and could get on board with it in theory, but with some kids I would say "good luck with that." A friend of mine has a son who is now 11yo, and while I think he may have had some other sensitivity issues, he had extreme versions of the shy behavior you describe. There is no way on earth my friend could have forced him to smile and say hi without a huge major meltdown. Even now at his age this is sometimes an issue.

 

This is my 3 year old exactly. She would have a HUGE meltdown if I forced her to try to talk to someone. She even has huge meltdowns if people try to talk to her even if I don't force the issue (think Grandma if it has been a few weeks or isn't at Grandma's house). She isn't a completely normal kid, but still, for her, it has nothing to do with rudeness and everything to do with her own issues. If she starts to meltdown, I tell her that is unacceptable, etc., but I'm not going to do force her into the situation in the first place. I wouldn't want people to make assumptions about my parenting or her level of rudeness based on something like shyness. There are much bigger things I'm worried about.

[Pink Fairy]

I think this is the kind of thing I might have worried about when I was only parenting younger kids. Now that my kids are older, I can look back and see that they all have been through that stage, they got past it, and it wasn't a big deal.

[cindergretta]

This is an adult problem being forced on children. I don't care if Mrs. Smith thinks one of my dc is rude. That is her problem. If an adult is going to be upset because a *child* is rude, then they have bigger issues than my "shy" child.

 

All of my dc have been "shy" until around 7 or 8 and all (except my ASD dc) have outgrown it quite naturally. I didn't force them or bribe them or threaten them. They learned by watching what their parents did.

 

And boy, I totally, 100% agree with the PPs who addressed the issue of children being held to a higher standard than children. If an adult speaks to a child, that child darn well better answer and look the adult in the eye and be polite, etc. But many times I have witnessed a child speak to an adult and be *totally* ignored. (It happened today when my 8 y/o ds tried to ask an adult a question. She knew he was trying to speak to her and she intentionally ignored him and walked away.)

 

Let's address the double standard before we brow beat 4 or 5 year olds into submissive behavior that denies their own feelings of security.

[zaichiki]

I think if a child is still so shy they cant or wont interact with society at 6 or 7 it is probably time for an evaluation or therapies.

 

I disagree with this. I have a 12 year old who was still shy at 6. He's outgrown it. No therapy needed. I know other older kids who were shy at 6 and 7. It was never that they *couldn't interact with society.* The trouble was that they felt anxiety interacting with strangers and felt safer with mom as the buffer. Strange adults were intimidating to them. But it didn't last forever. :001_smile:

[zaichiki]

I do see what you are saying, but if I'm not comfortable with a situation it might just be that, I'm not comfortable. Also, I grew up in an area of the US where people say "how are you" and absolutely do not want to know and expect nothing more than "hello" or "fine" back (which drives my husband bonkers btw...LOL).

 

 

:lol: That reminds me of when, as a college student, I moved from an area of the country where people prized minding their own business to an area where strangers expected eye contact, a smile, and conversation. My first experience was at the gas station. I went inside the convenience shop to pick up some water or something and everyone in the store was waving and trying to chat. I just wanted to hide! I couldn't understand why they all needed to talk to me! :lol: I had been raised that leaving strangers alone was respectful (gave them privacy)... being quick was valued... I was in a place where people thought being quick was rude and "getting to know you" was polite. Talk about culture shock! I don't think I ever quite got used to that.

[Daisy]

I think it is important to work on social skills at home. We work on appropriate greetings and small talk in a safe and comfortable setting. We talk about up-coming events, how to greet relatives who visit (who they don't see often), etc. If any correction needs to be made, I make it gently at home after the event. What may be perceived as rudeness by others, I know to be genuine shyness.

 

My children are VERY shy just as I am.

 

If I were to call them on the carpet about their shy behavior in public it would do nothing but make the matter worse. Usually it makes the other adult uncomfortable also. And honestly I don't care if another adult thinks my kids are rude for being SHY. Gee whiz. My kids could be rude for far worse reasons. Give me a shy kid any day of the week over a mouthy one.

 

Whether it is rudeness or shyness though is really irrelevant to me. The fact of the matter is that my children struggle with it so we work on it. By humiliating them in public or allowing them to be humiliated by someone else, I'm only reinforcing the unwanted behavior. No one becomes outgoing by being berated in public.

 

You can't force a kid to be outgoing. I'm a preacher's kid. I was paraded in front of everyone on the planet. Forced to make conversation, etc. It didn't work at all.

[Laurie4b]

:lol: That reminds me of when, as a college student, I moved from an area of the country where people prized minding their own business to an area where strangers expected eye contact, a smile, and conversation. My first experience was at the gas station. I went inside the convenience shop to pick up some water or something and everyone in the store was waving and trying to chat. I just wanted to hide! I couldn't understand why they all needed to talk to me! :lol: I had been raised that leaving strangers alone was respectful (gave them privacy)... being quick was valued... I was in a place where people thought being quick was rude and "getting to know you" was polite. Talk about culture shock! I don't think I ever quite got used to that.

 

:iagree: Exactly! This happened to me when moving from an suburban area near a major city in the Northeast to the South. :confused::svengo: Took a while to adapt! :tongue_smilie:

[Laurie4b]

Extroverted behavior is consider polite, introverted behavior is consider rude. Since there are more extroverts than introverts, they get to make the rules. Me personally, I find it quite distressing that we are trying change introverts inate personalities by bending young children to the socially acceptable norm. Some people are shy. Most of them will learn to cope and manage in their own ways over time without some extrovert telling them the correct way to do it. This is a case where I thoroughly support respecting your child's own personal core being and not trying to force them to be someone that they are not.

 

Could you imagine for just a moment the rules were reverse and the introverts were in charge and it was considered rude to talk to someone unless it was absolutely neccesary? If small talk was considered rude. If it was rude to intrude on a person's personal space and share your latest thought with them when they may be considering very important issues in their own life. My guess is that if you are an extrovert, no you can not. Hopefully, just one person has reconsidered that they personally may know the best way to fix introverts.

 

There are a lot of valid points here and fact is "politeness" is socially determined. I just wanted to mention, though, that someone can be extroverted AND shy. My oldest ds has just GOT to be around people. Being around people fills and rejuvenates him. He cannot stand to be around the house with no contact with friends. That is not an introvert. However, he is very shy. I got into teaching Sunday school because the only way he would go at age 3 was if I taught, and even then, he would plaster himself up against a wall! He is very social and has lots of friends, but prefers that others "plow the way" to new people. He is uber polite and socially conscious, so not forcing him when little had no ill effects on his politeness.

[TranquilMind]

Extroverted behavior is consider polite, introverted behavior is consider rude. Since there are more extroverts than introverts, they get to make the rules. Me personally, I find it quite distressing that we are trying change introverts inate personalities by bending young children to the socially acceptable norm. Some people are shy. Most of them will learn to cope and manage in their own ways over time without some extrovert telling them the correct way to do it. This is a case where I thoroughly support respecting your child's own personal core being and not trying to force them to be someone that they are not.

 

Could you imagine for just a moment the rules were reverse and the introverts were in charge and it was considered rude to talk to someone unless it was absolutely neccesary? If small talk was considered rude. If it was rude to intrude on a person's personal space and share your latest thought with them when they may be considering very important issues in their own life. My guess is that if you are an extrovert, no you can not. Hopefully, just one person has reconsidered that they personally may know the best way to fix introverts.

That's not it at all. No one said it is polite to be an extrovert, and rude to be an introvert. I'm introverted myself, but I can still speak to people when I'm in an environment where it is appropriate. Introverted merely means one who does not draw energy from people and excitement, as extroverts do, but one who needs some down time to "recover" from engaging with people.

 

Introverted does not mean rude.

 

It is not introverted to ignore people who are greeting you in social situations; it is rude to ignore people who are greeting you.

[Joanne]

That's not it at all. No one said it is polite to be an extrovert, and rude to be an introvert. I'm introverted myself, but I can still speak to people when I'm in an environment where it is appropriate. Introverted merely means one who does not draw energy from people and excitement, as extroverts do, but one who needs some down time to "recover" from engaging with people.

 

Introverted does not mean rude.

 

It is not introverted to ignore people who are greeting you in social situations; it is rude to ignore people who are greeting you.

 

But young introverts are just that; young. :D

 

With patient coaching and training, they'll learn. But to expect everyone, at any age, to have the capacity to transcend the need to process quietly is unkind.

[In2why]

I completely disagree. My eldest was still painfully shy at ages 6 and 7 but is quite outgoing now, at 13. He converses easily with adults and children of all ages. He is neurotypical. He was just shy.

 

I was still painfully shy at 12 and 13. I am neurotypical. The problem wasn't me, it was my abusive home environment. Shyness is a coping mechanism. As an adult, I have learned how to politely interact with those around me and even to enjoy those interactions.

 

I don't consider shy children to be rude at all. There is no malice in their behavior. It is an age appropriate behavior. I feel that adults should be understanding of shyness in children.

 

But you have also made my point. You say shyness is a coping mechanism and that you had a painful childhood. Others spoke of aspegers and selective mutism. These are things that would be helped with therapies. If a child cant engage in socially accepted behavoir, like speaking when spoken to, to me that is a problem and I would want help for my child. I don't expect everyone to be social butterflies, but being 6+ and not being able to return a greeting is an indicator of a problem. At least to me.

[parias1126]

I have a child that is this way. My DS will be 8 next month and will not talk to any adult. He will tuck his head and tighten up his lips and hide behind me in some instances. It is very embarrassing for me at times. He wouldn't even leave our side until just recently(probably within the last 6 months). If he is at an outside function, it takes him weeks to open up to the adult instructing and stil, even then, he is very stand-offish. I have talked to him about this behavior plenty...probably 50 times or more now that he is getting too old to behave this way. He will not say Thank You. Last time I wouldn't let him receive whatever it was from the adult (don't remember what it was now) unless he said thank you. It was candy or something and he refused still and didn't take it. There is definiteley an issue here. I thought selective mutism, but I have been around children with selective mutism and they won't speak to a person of authority. My son has gotten very close to his swim teacher and talks to her a mile a minute. She is the ONLY adult aside from my husband or I that he has spoken to.

 

If I didn't have a child in this situation, I would agree with those of you that say its rude and that the child should be told to speak with that person by the age of 6-7. Well, I've done that over and over. He is almost 8 and WILL NOT budge. He wouldn't even sit down to get a haircut on his own until the age of 7. He his under the chair in the lobby at one point while the hairdresser tries everything in her might to get him to come sit for her. Same thing at the dentist until just recently (he was 7). Prior to that, he was under the chair in the lobby crying because he didn't want me to make him go get his teeth cleaned.

 

This is a major problem in our house. We don't know how to deal with it here. It has gotten better in that there is no more crying and hiding under chairs. But who knows when he will address another adult he sees every so often, a waitress in a restaurant when she asks him what he wants to eat, or someone just trying to be friendly.

[cindergretta]

But you have also made my point. You say shyness is a coping mechanism and that you had a painful childhood. Others spoke of aspegers and selective mutism. These are things that would be helped with therapies. If a child cant engage in socially accepted behavoir, like speaking when spoken to, to me that is a problem and I would want help for my child. I don't expect everyone to be social butterflies, but being 6+ and not being able to return a greeting is an indicator of a problem. At least to me.

 

I disagree. People develop at different rates and times. Some dc may be able to answer questions and return greetings at 3 while other children are 7 or 8. There is no "magic" age where all of them are doing the same things. Yes, selective mutism, Aspergers, and autism probably require therapies or other helps, but not every child has one of these issues simply because they don't want to smile at and/or talk to strangers at 6.

 

My oldest 3 are all neuro-typical and were shy and quiet until, hmm, around 9 or 10. And then *poof* out of their shells they popped. At their own speed, in their own time, without therapy.

[rocketgirl]

My children's closest but most distant - emotionally aunt & kids got in line behind us at an event & didn't say hello, or anything. One of mine turned & noticed & said, hey, its aunt ....!! So we all turned and said, "hi"! We were the only two groups of people in line, so it isn't like she was way far back or anything. Even after we said hi, she did not respond. I think it is so rude, she's an adult & we spoke directly to her. It wasn't the first time but it was the first time that I had to explain to my kids why she didn't say hello back. Anyway I'm beginning to think that she has some kind of social anxiety that explains, in her favor, why she'd act that way. I must point out that after we turned & said hello then turned back to get our tickets, she left & went somewhere else & didn't even buy her tickets. Her kids, my nieces & nephews, never say hi when they arrive anywhere, but really it must be because she doesn't & so they don't know how...So to answer the Ops question, yes, although its kind of weird for them not to say hi, its so forgivable because their mom doesn't, how would they know different?

Edited January 3, 2012 by rocketgirl

[nd293]

I'm glad to say both boys now are quite good at the eye contact/conversation/smiling thing.

 

So, any thoughts? Do you think my boys would have 'grown out of it' on their own without any training, or for some kids, does one need to be intentional that their 'shyness' does not turn to rudeness?

 

Just pondering this today. :001_smile:

 

I was very shy as a child, and found social situations very difficult. That said, I would insist on basic courtesy, eye contact, smiling and greeting. But I would give them the right to excuse themselves and move off a little if they were not able to sustain further conversation. I would speak for them, if necessary, as long as they could come up with the basic smile, eye contact and greeting.

 

I'm 40 years old, and still remember my mother calling me a "wet blanket" when I was 10yrs old because I didn't want to go to some or other social event where I would have to engage with people who weren't close friends. She had no idea how excutiatingly painful it was for me.

 

So in my mind, politeness is essential, but that does not mean "friendliness" (for want of a better word to differentiate).

[angela in ohio]

If it was rude to intrude on a person's personal space and share your latest thought with them when they may be considering very important issues in their own life.

 

I do consider this rude. You can be just as much "too extroverted" as "too introverted," imho. No double standard. I coach my naturally extroverted child to be respectful of others just as much as I coach my naturally introverted. Of course, the same people who say "it's okay, they're just shy" also say "it's okay, they have to express themselves even if they are interrupting." Either way, I'm the mean mom. :D

[LostSurprise]

I don't expect everyone to be social butterflies, but being 6+ and not being able to return a greeting is an indicator of a problem. At least to me.

 

No offense, but I would venture to guess that you were not one of these 'shy' children.

 

I was, and while I didn't hide behind my parents it was absolutely terrifying to have a strange adult focus on me and ask me questions. Worse than being spanked or almost getting hit by a car.

 

And I somehow managed to survive and learn small talk in a gentle way..without therapy.

 

Please realize that you are a different person who doesn't have a natural affinity for this issue. There is a wide spectrum of normal developmental responses to this issue.

 

I for one would never consider a child 'rude' because they were still working on an issue that I..or my own children..had no problem with. If anything I would work harder to make them more comfortable so practice would be easier. That might mean leaving them alone or letting them get to know me slowly.

[fairfarmhand]

I sort of get this.

 

My second child was like this. We did not correct her on the spot. She would have been mortified and it would have been worse. BUt we would address it later.

 

Then before we went anywhere we would remind her that people might say hi and she needed to at least say hello, make eye contact, and not burst into tears because somebody dared to say hello to her. We role payed alot.

 

There was no punishment, just lots of reminders and nice conversations about manners.

[jplain]

Another introvert here, daughter of 2 introverts, married to an introvert, and parent of at least one introvert. I consider myself amply qualified to comment on the issue of introverts and small talk. :D

 

I don't do small talk, unless I'm inspired by circumstance or a gut feeling that I'm interacting with a kindred spirit. My chance-meetings with acquaintances in the grocery store are typically perfunctory. I'm there to shop, not socialize. We can chat later, in a social venue, assuming I'm feeling chatty. That's just me, and I'm grateful that my friends and family accept my way of being in the world.

 

Though I model polite interactions, I don't train my kids to say hello to adults, and I'm horrified at the idea of asking a child to fake a smile. Yes, I know that smiles are culturally expected, especially of girls and women, but I dislike the idea of teaching a child to fake positive emotion. (However, though my younger usually won't answer random questions from unfamiliar adults, she will initiate grinning, giggling games of peek-a-boo with some of them. :D)

 

Eye contact is another touchy issue. Many children are uncomfortable making eye contact with adults. They may find it too intense, and may have trouble making eye contact and focusing on making conversation at the same time. I recall reading about this in a parenting book. The author argued that it may be counterproductive to force children to make eye contact while correcting problematic behavior, because the effort to maintain eye contact may prevent the child from hearing anything you're saying.

 

Adults often ask children personal questions. How would you like it if a slight acquaintance asked how old you are or wanted to know how you planned to spend your tax return? You might avoid answering, because it is probably none of the other person's business. Why are children expected to have more flexible boundaries than adults?

 

Rather than babble on more, I'll ditto these previously two raised points:

I never force my child to talk to someone they don't want, friend or stranger. They will warm up in their own time. Perhaps its your friend, not your child's friend.

(bolding mine)

By forcing a child to do something they are not comfortable w/ (and I'm not talking about giving a presentation in class, or their math), you are setting them up for the internal struggle of "I can't say no to this grown up, because it would be rude".

Edited January 3, 2012 by jplain

[Nakia]

I'm late to this thread (story of my life, lol), but I have an introverted, shy child. She is almost 9, and she is just now able to make eye contact, smile, and speak to people we see that we know out in public. If it's a stranger, she will smile but forget her talking to them. And that's okay. I've coached repeatedly (not in public), never reprimanded. What good does it do to reprimand them? She will eventually feel comfortable saying hello to strangers...or not. Even that's okay. She is a thinker; she has to warm up to a situation. There is nothing wrong with her personality, and I refuse to tell her there is. And if someone thinks that is rude, I don't care. They don't know my kid like I do.

 

I think it's sad that we (general "we") have decided what is and is not acceptable. If you are different than what society deems as "normal," there must be something wrong with you. Ugh.

[Lisa R.]

 

I think it's sad that we (general "we") have decided what is and is not acceptable. If you are different than what society deems as "normal," there must be something wrong with you. Ugh.

 

 

Here's where I see the problem. We don't get to choose what is acceptable socially or not. Culturally, it is considered polite to make eye contact, answer questions, and keep a conversation going. I'm not going to stipulate the age at which this should occur, but I will say that more practice makes this easier and smoother.

 

People that are adept at talking and interacting comfortably with others will have more opportunities. As you meet more people and interact well with them, job opportunities can arise. Oftentimes colleges have scholarship weekends where top students compete with one another through interviews and team projects. Smooth social skills open doors that even higher education cannot.

[cindergretta]

 

I think it's sad that we (general "we") have decided what is and is not acceptable. If you are different than what society deems as "normal," there must be something wrong with you. Ugh.

 

I agree, especially with the bolded. :iagree: We spend our children's childhood telling them to be themselves, don't conform, think outside the box, but for heaven's sake, be like everyone else!! :glare: Instead of trying to force people to be this way or that way, maybe we could all work on (ourselves) and teach (our children) that every individual is different. Assign positive intent and try to be understanding of those who behave differently than you do. Maybe this way or that way isn't "right" or "wrong," but just different strokes for different folks. Roll with it and quit getting wrapped around the axle over who is being (in any given opinion) rude. :D

[Nakia]

Here's where I see the problem. We don't get to choose what is acceptable socially or not. Culturally, it is considered polite to make eye contact, answer questions, and keep a conversation going. I'm not going to stipulate the age at which this should occur, but I will say that more practice makes this easier and smoother.

 

People that are adept at talking and interacting comfortably with others will have more opportunities. As you meet more people and interact well with them, job opportunities can arise. Oftentimes colleges have scholarship weekends where top students compete with one another through interviews and team projects. Smooth social skills open doors that even higher education cannot.

 

I don't disagree with you. But why expect this kind of interaction from children, who are the focus of this thread? Why can't some children take longer to achieve the "smooth social skills?" I know you specifically said you aren't stipulating an age, but some do (and have right here on this thread).

 

I've met shy kids, like mine. And then I've met rude kids, the ones who stare a hole through you, roll their eyes, and walk away when you speak to them. It's not hard to tell the difference between shy/introverted and flat out rude.

 

Introverts learn and grow. They go to college, get jobs, have families, interact with society. They just do it differently than extroverts. I think that's what people are trying to say here.

 

I am saying from the perspective of an extrovert who has some extreme introvert moments, lol.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Nakia

[Daisy]

I don't disagree with you. But why expect this kind of interaction from children, who are the focus of this thread? Why can't some children take longer to achieve the "smooth social skills?" I know you specifically said you aren't stipulating an age, but some do (and have right here on this thread).

 

I've met shy kids, like mine. And then I've met rude kids, the ones who stare a hole through you, roll their eyes, and walk away when you speak to them. It's not hard to tell the difference between shy/introverted and flat out rude.

 

Introverts learn and grow. They go to college, get jobs, have families, interact with society. They just do it differently than extroverts. I think that's what people are trying to say here.

 

Exactly. Well said.

[Tammyla]

:iagree: I have a hard time thinking of a shy child as rude.

 

I don't disagree with you. But why expect this kind of interaction from children, who are the focus of this thread? Why can't some children take longer to achieve the "smooth social skills?" I know you specifically said you aren't stipulating an age, but some do (and have right here on this thread).

 

I've met shy kids, like mine. And then I've met rude kids, the ones who stare a hole through you, roll their eyes, and walk away when you speak to them. It's not hard to tell the difference between shy/introverted and flat out rude.

 

Introverts learn and grow. They go to college, get jobs, have families, interact with society. They just do it differently than extroverts. I think that's what people are trying to say here.

 

I am saying from the perspective of an extrovert who has some extreme introvert moments, lol.

[swellmomma]

I agree, especially with the bolded. :iagree: We spend our children's childhood telling them to be themselves, don't conform, think outside the box, but for heaven's sake, be like everyone else!! :glare: Instead of trying to force people to be this way or that way, maybe we could all work on (ourselves) and teach (our children) that every individual is different. Assign positive intent and try to be understanding of those who behave differently than you do. Maybe this way or that way isn't "right" or "wrong," but just different strokes for different folks. Roll with it and quit getting wrapped around the axle over who is being (in any given opinion) rude. :D

 

The above made me smile. It makes me think of the arguement I was having with my ex about the kids last week. I believe my exact wording in there was "I am not telling you how to parent them in your home, but goodness sake do it my way" I think the same happens in the mommy wars we say every parent knows their child best and should make the choices for that child as long as they are the same choices we are making. Kids are not exempt from it. Be unique and different but in the same unique and different way as everyone else.

 

Besides don't you know my children are not merely shy or introverts they are those weird unsocialized homeschoolers. They were doomed from the start :lol:

[8circles]

I think that calling-out a child in public for their social discomfort is unkind. Very unkind. It doesn't create a safe, trusting environment to attempt the proper behavior.

 

I was a shy child & my children have been mostly shy. We practice at home & I always give them options. They can respond with "hello", a nice smile & a nod, or "hi", or even "howdy". Just giving them the options makes it less scary & gives them some control. They outgrow it if they're given the proper tools.

 

I think it's pretty indulgent to allow grown adults to get away with feeling slighted by a child's shyness to call it rude. Seriously, now. I've encountered rude children & these shy children are not them.

[dragons in the flower bed]

Instead of letting little Sally 'off' with just a 'you needn't be so shy', Mrs. Jones should get down to Sally's level, explain that when a grown up that you know speaks to you, you should look at their eyes and respond to their questions; that it's rude to hide behind mommy's skirt instead of doing those things. Then, have Sally look Mrs. Smith in the eyes, and at the very least, give a smile. With practice, Sally should be able to say hello, answer questions, etc.

 

I think if someone had done this to me when I was seven I would have passed out from fear.

 

I have been doing this with all of my sons and I have one who gets angry, sticks his tongue out, even rolls his eyes upon being introduced. It was only when he was old enough to give me a good description of his feelings when meeting new people that I realized he wasn't mean and obnoxious but scared and defensive. I'd much rather he had gone through early childhood feeling safe from friendly people than pre-emptively angering everyone and having his fears about strangers confirmed by their negative reactions. He developed a seriously bad habit because I pushed him to do something he wasn't emotionally ready to handle.

[In2why]

No offense, but I would venture to guess that you were not one of these 'shy' children.

 

I was, and while I didn't hide behind my parents it was absolutely terrifying to have a strange adult focus on me and ask me questions. Worse than being spanked or almost getting hit by a car.

 

And I somehow managed to survive and learn small talk in a gentle way..without therapy.

 

Please realize that you are a different person who doesn't have a natural affinity for this issue. There is a wide spectrum of normal developmental responses to this issue.

 

I for one would never consider a child 'rude' because they were still working on an issue that I..or my own children..had no problem with. If anything I would work harder to make them more comfortable so practice would be easier. That might mean leaving them alone or letting them get to know me slowly.

 

I was shy. I can still be socially awkward at times. I think many of us are talking about different things. Some wrote of being able to respond with a greeting or say thank you, and others as being comfortable making small talk and being extroverted. I am discussing being able to say hello and thank you, not being able to hold or begin a conversation. I also wouldn't punish or discuss this with my child in public while it is happening. I also wouldn't focus in on a shy child, but there is a difference between shyness and not being able to function in society. For a child unable to return a greeting or say thank you I wouldn't think they were rude, but I wouldn't see it as normal and okay either. If it were my child I would want to get them some help, the same way I would if they needed speech therapy. I will even step out on a limb and say I wouldn't excuse it because I was that way either. To me that would be like me saying it is okay for my daughter not to do well in math because I never did.

I am okay with having a different opinion about this, but it isn't because I don't understand.

 

As for suggestions. I loved the phone and thought it was magical when I was 5 or 6. After we role played it became my job to answer the phone. It was easier than having to look someone in the eye. Another thing that helped was having my allowance in my hands. If I wanted to buy something then I had to take it to the register with my parents there but not involved. My Dad would have me order a happy meal through the drive through and of course they would ask what I wanted to drink, and I answered. Then it got to the point where if we went inside my Dad would ask me what I wanted, and then to tell the person the next time, and then he would sit at a table and have me order and pay. If I couldn't answer someone my parents waited beside me until I could. It was more painful to stand there unable to speak. It never happened probably because they encouraged me early, but if I had burst into tears or hyperventilated I am sure they would have rescued me, being the parents they were, and I guess we would have went back to the last thing I could do. I never could sit on Santas lap and tell him what I wanted though and no amount of bribery or coaxing was going to make that happen. I guess they chose their battles.

[HappyCrazyMama]

I have a child that is this way. My DS will be 8 next month and will not talk to any adult. He will tuck his head and tighten up his lips and hide behind me in some instances. It is very embarrassing for me at times. He wouldn't even leave our side until just recently(probably within the last 6 months). If he is at an outside function, it takes him weeks to open up to the adult instructing and stil, even then, he is very stand-offish. I have talked to him about this behavior plenty...probably 50 times or more now that he is getting too old to behave this way. He will not say Thank You. Last time I wouldn't let him receive whatever it was from the adult (don't remember what it was now) unless he said thank you. It was candy or something and he refused still and didn't take it. There is definiteley an issue here. I thought selective mutism, but I have been around children with selective mutism and they won't speak to a person of authority. My son has gotten very close to his swim teacher and talks to her a mile a minute. She is the ONLY adult aside from my husband or I that he has spoken to.

 

If I didn't have a child in this situation, I would agree with those of you that say its rude and that the child should be told to speak with that person by the age of 6-7. Well, I've done that over and over. He is almost 8 and WILL NOT budge. He wouldn't even sit down to get a haircut on his own until the age of 7. He his under the chair in the lobby at one point while the hairdresser tries everything in her might to get him to come sit for her. Same thing at the dentist until just recently (he was 7). Prior to that, he was under the chair in the lobby crying because he didn't want me to make him go get his teeth cleaned.

 

This is a major problem in our house. We don't know how to deal with it here. It has gotten better in that there is no more crying and hiding under chairs. But who knows when he will address another adult he sees every so often, a waitress in a restaurant when she asks him what he wants to eat, or someone just trying to be friendly.

 

:iagree:You just described my 7 yo daughter, I mean to a T. She also just started going to the dentist and I am not sure what to do about getting her eyes checked because she will.not.talk. Outside our home she doesn't talk to anyone except one set of grandparents, won't talk to the others.at.all. After about 6 months will sometimes talk to her Sunday School teacher. Anyone who thinks a child can just be prodded out of it and are just being rude has not had a child like this. I know because I used to agree, this is just one more thing I've had to eat crow about.:tongue_smilie:Yes, she is an extreme example, yes, I've even considered therapy but haven't decided to go that route yet because she is getting better bit by tiny bit. She will even look at a camera now, but not smile. I make her go to Girl Scouts and she will participate now but not talk.

 

I'll tell you something else it irks me to no end when people.will.not.leave.her.alone thinking if they are just sweet and cute long enough she will smile at them. No, get out of my child's face please.:glare: Or grandma telling her she can't have the treat everyone else is getting until she's asks her for it (and the others didn't have to ask).:banghead: And no it doesn't work, she gets left out because she can't bring herself to ask (we only see this grandma a couple of times a year). My dh stepped in on this one.:)

 

I appreciate this thread because it reminded me not to refer to her as shy, I used to be better about that. I like the phrase, "she doesn't feel like talking today." Role playing too, I've been lax in these things lately. Just because our children won't respond/look/talk to you doesn't mean we don't care or are not working on it.:) I do make her go to activities, Sunday School, Girl Scouts etc. but it's okay if she only watches.:)

[cindergretta]

 

I appreciate this thread because it reminded me not to refer to her as shy, I used to be better about that. I like the phrase, "she doesn't feel like talking today." Role playing too, I've been lax in these things lately. Just because our children won't respond/look/talk to you doesn't mean we don't care or are not working on it.:) I do make her go to activities, Sunday School, Girl Scouts etc. but it's okay if she only watches.:)

 

We have a 6 y/o dd who is extremely shy and on the spectrum. She attends Sunday School and Girl Scouts and just watches and does the crafts, etc. She doesn't talk with anyone but she isn't upset, either. When strangers (to her) are in our home, she will hide upstairs and I will not drag her down and force her to "face" them. If they are here for a while (several hours or more) she will eventually move to the top of the stairs and observe and if they are here for longer than that, she will come down and watch everyone until she can sneak in and sit on dd15's lap or ds17's lap. She observes everyone very intently and solemnly. Those who are close to my family will tell you how much they value and appreciate the "moment" when they "earned" her smiles and greetings. None have ever expressed any displeasure at her behavior or called her rude. :001_smile: Her Sunday School teacher and her Girl Scout leader adore her. And they are very laid back with her, taking a gentle, almost distant, approach.

 

For Christmas, we gave her a Starbucks card. We are working on having her ask the barista for what she wants and paying for it. She still won't look at them, but she is starting to speak. Now, add a little volume and get her to look up and we are GOLDEN! :D It is a process and we are working on it. We also coach her and let her practice at Red Robin, where the wait staff are extremely accommodating of her (and ds8) special needs.

[Tammyla]

:grouphug: Hugs to you and your dd. I once had a child in my class for months who never uttered a word...period. One weekend in Safeway, I heard a child singing one of our songs aloud to her mom; I was so surprised and delighted to see it was him.

 

:iagree:You just described my 7 yo daughter, I mean to a T. She also just started going to the dentist and I am not sure what to do about getting her eyes checked because she will.not.talk. Outside our home she doesn't talk to anyone except one set of grandparents, won't talk to the others.at.all. After about 6 months will sometimes talk to her Sunday School teacher. Anyone who thinks a child can just be prodded out of it and are just being rude has not had a child like this. I know because I used to agree, this is just one more thing I've had to eat crow about.:tongue_smilie:Yes, she is an extreme example, yes, I've even considered therapy but haven't decided to go that route yet because she is getting better bit by tiny bit. She will even look at a camera now, but not smile. I make her go to Girl Scouts and she will participate now but not talk.

 

I'll tell you something else it irks me to no end when people.will.not.leave.her.alone thinking if they are just sweet and cute long enough she will smile at them. No, get out of my child's face please.:glare: Or grandma telling her she can't have the treat everyone else is getting until she's asks her for it (and the others didn't have to ask).:banghead: And no it doesn't work, she gets left out because she can't bring herself to ask (we only see this grandma a couple of times a year). My dh stepped in on this one.:)

 

I appreciate this thread because it reminded me not to refer to her as shy, I used to be better about that. I like the phrase, "she doesn't feel like talking today." Role playing too, I've been lax in these things lately. Just because our children won't respond/look/talk to you doesn't mean we don't care or are not working on it.:) I do make her go to activities, Sunday School, Girl Scouts etc. but it's okay if she only watches.:)

[TranquilMind]

Here's where I see the problem. We don't get to choose what is acceptable socially or not. Culturally, it is considered polite to make eye contact, answer questions, and keep a conversation going. I'm not going to stipulate the age at which this should occur, but I will say that more practice makes this easier and smoother.

 

People that are adept at talking and interacting comfortably with others will have more opportunities. As you meet more people and interact well with them, job opportunities can arise. Oftentimes colleges have scholarship weekends where top students compete with one another through interviews and team projects. Smooth social skills open doors that even higher education cannot.

Exactly. A child without these skills is at a disadvantage FOR LIFE. As a parent, it is my job to teach cultural expectations and how to engage in normal interactions, not to excuse my (older, say elementary aged) child from interaction due to my own background.

 

I wouldn't chastise my child in front of others but at a young age children should be able to interact with others of all ages - in general. I keep hearing people say that this lack should be excused because the other person MIGHT be a pedophile or something and we should trust a child's intuition. See, that would only be useful if the child could interact normally with everyone on a regular basis but balked at interacting with a particular person.

 

If the child is not interacting in a normal way regularly - despite the fact that there may be an exception or two - I would consider that a problem at some point after early childhood.

[OrganicAnn]

For anyone who wants to know more about shyness:

 

http://www.homepages.indiana.edu/121004/text/research.shtml

[zaichiki]

I have one who gets angry, sticks his tongue out, even rolls his eyes upon being introduced. It was only when he was old enough to give me a good description of his feelings when meeting new people that I realized he wasn't mean and obnoxious but scared and defensive. I'd much rather he had gone through early childhood feeling safe from friendly people than pre-emptively angering everyone and having his fears about strangers confirmed by their negative reactions. He developed a seriously bad habit because I pushed him to do something he wasn't emotionally ready to handle.

 

This is like how my 6 y.o. responds when I try to push him. Therefore, I don't push him. If I model the behavior I want, and prompt him (with a suggestion), but then leave it up to him, he WILL, one day, be ready to respond in a friendly, appropriate way. (I know this b/c I have an older child who outgrew the "shyness" of speaking to strangers.)

 

Most of the time, unpushed, 6 y.o. ds will just stand by my side. Sometimes he will step behind me. On the rare occasion he tries to hide inside my coat (Oh yes he does. Sigh.), I will stop what I am doing to remove him from my coat and remind him that I don't like that. (This usually stops that behavior b/c he's not trying to displease me... and now the attention is on him, which is NOT what he wanted.)

 

:iagree: with this poster.

 

I also agree with previous posters who said that it is much more rude when it becomes a big deal... and I'm adding that my ds appears much more rude when he responds in an angry, defensive manner as described by this poster above. (I'd rather just let him stand quietly for now, confident that he will outgrow it.)

Edited January 4, 2012 by zaichiki

[jplain]

Exactly. A child without these skills is at a disadvantage FOR LIFE. As a parent, it is my job to teach cultural expectations and how to engage in normal interactions, not to excuse my (older, say elementary aged) child from interaction due to my own background.

Perhaps you don't mean it this way, but this sounds like an extrovert telling an introvert that his/her way of interacting with the world is wrong.

 

As mentioned before in this thread:

Extroverted behavior is consider polite, introverted behavior is consider rude. Since there are more extroverts than introverts, they get to make the rules.

 

The fact is, introverts have their own set of strengths. It can be awfully tough to nurture and value those strengths when being told that you're going to fail or be "at a disadvantage FOR LIFE" if you don't assimilate.

[8circles]

I'd like to point out that while introverts seem to be more likely to be shy, shyness does not equal introvert.

 

I have a very shy child who is an extrovert (needs & thrives on lots of interaction with people) and an introvert who is not shy at all.

 

It isn't the same thing.

[jplain]

I'd like to point out that while introverts seem to be more likely to be shy, shyness does not equal introvert.

 

I have a very shy child who is an extrovert (needs & thrives on lots of interaction with people) and an introvert who is not shy at all.

 

It isn't the same thing.

I do understand the difference. However, many people mislabel introversion as shyness, which is why introversion has come up over and over again on this thread. Does that make sense?

 

Of course it is reasonable to help a child (introvert or extrovert) deal with true shyness, especially if it causes the child distress. However, it is NOT reasonable to expect an introvert to change his/her personality and become a small-talk-loving social butterfly. I don't care who says it is an advantage. The attitude that introverted behavior can confer a lifelong disadvantage devalues the innate strengths that introverts bring to the table.