So, about professional designations...pastry "chef"?

[Julie in CA]

Would you expect that a pastry chef have a degree?

Though I'm employed as a pastry chef, I don't have the degree, and I've been resistant to using the designation. At the same time, it's really the easiest way to describe what I do professionally. There is a common perspective that if you're doing the job of a chef, you're a chef, regardless of how you came about the skills and experience. What do you think?

[justamouse]

Yes, I would expect a pastry chef to have been to a pastry school. Kinda the same way you only call a schooled chef- chef. Otherwise, they're a cook.

 

Now, that doesn't mean you can't crank out killer pastries, have a business, make stuff everyone loves--just that you would be a baker, not a pastry chef.

[Audrey]

Yes, I would expect a pastry chef to have been to a pastry school. Kinda the same way you only call a schooled chef- chef. Otherwise, they're a cook.

 

Now, that doesn't mean you can't crank out killer pastries, have a business, make stuff everyone loves--just that you would be a baker, not a pastry chef.

 

:iagree: To use the term "chef" implies one has the schooling credential to accompany the title.

[MHowell]

Yes, I would expect a pastry chef to have been to a pastry school. Kinda the same way you only call a schooled chef- chef. Otherwise, they're a cook.

 

Now, that doesn't mean you can't crank out killer pastries, have a business, make stuff everyone loves--just that you would be a baker, not a pastry chef.

 

No, actually you can become a chef by being an apprentice to a chef as well.

 

 

If you can produce professional grade desserts, and have worked in the industry for a good amount of time I would consider you a chef. If it makes you uncomfortable you can always refer to yourself as a chef by trade. I hear that a lot for those who haven't graduated a formal school.

 

My brother has his degree as a professional pastry chef, and he always says he has learned more actually working than in school. He calls it a waste. Also my husband is a chef, first by trade then after 20 years in the industry with degree. He agrees that you learn much more from a good apprenticeship then in school.

 

HTH!

[Annie G]

I think it's fine to use the designation- you have the skills and experience to back it up. You could work towards certification if that's important to you but you're not mistaken when you call yourself a pastry chef. Lots of community colleges have pastry chef programs- and I'm betting you have more skill and definitely more experience than folks who finish such a program.

 

I say all of the above because the ACF will let you sit for their first level of certification with the amount of education and experience you have.

 

If you're going to stick with this, it would really be nice to take some classes.

[LaxMom]

Pastry chef is your occupation if you work for a restaurant or other professional kitchen. It sets you apart from the chef de cuisine, etc. I don't think it implies any particular credential, just that one makes desserts and not entrees.

 

In my experience, even my highly educated cake dude is a "baker" professionally. He runs a bakery.

 

You could adopt "patissiere" since you make cakes and not bread. ;)

[Julie in CA]

Well, a baker would be something different, though I agree with you about the degree requirement. My employer has a different perspective, and with the proliferation of "chefs" without degrees, I'm finding it difficult to insist that my title should be something other than the job I'm doing, kwim? It's been pointed out to me that most people think of and refer to Gordon Ramsay, Mario Batali, etc, as chefs, even though they don't hold the professional degree or certification, and that if you're filling the job, you have the title.

 

Thanks for the input. I think I should stick to my guns. :001_smile:

Edited December 18, 2011 by Julie in CA

[chickenpatty]

What's wrong with calling yourself a Dessert Fairy? I think that sounds much nicer, anyway. :D LOL... I'm sorry I'm no help with your question, though. :)

[Julie in CA]

You could adopt "patissiere" since you make cakes and not bread. ;)

See, I can't go with this one either, because I feel it implies French training & style. {sigh} :001_smile:

[beaners]

I've been in several restaurants where the chefs ran the kitchen, and the cooks prepped and did line work. It was a position within the restaurant rather than a credential.

[AK_Mom4]

Do job, get the title. That's my thought. Of course, this is coming from someone whose job stays the same, but the title changes every few years when they re-organize the department. Currently, I am an analyst, though I have also been an engineer (nope, my degree is not in engineering and I don't drive a train!), a technician (short-lived title because no one liked it), and a programmer.

 

I know! You could call yourself a "Pastry Architect"! Or "Pastery Design and Construction Specialist"!

[Happy]

Well, a baker would be something different, though I agree with you about the degree requirement. My employer has a different perspective, and with the proliferation of "chefs" without degrees, I'm finding it difficult to insist that my title should be something other than the job I'm doing, kwim? It's been pointed out to me that most people think of and refer to Gordon Ramsay, Mario Batali, etc, as chefs, and that if you're filling the job, you have the title.

 

Thanks for the input. I think I should stick to my guns. :001_smile:

 

That's because they are chefs, correct? It's also true that people know Paula Deen and Rachel Ray are 'cooks', not chefs. I understood the term chef meant some sort of certification.

 

I like Dessert Fairy, too!

[Julie in CA]

What's wrong with calling yourself a Dessert Fairy? I think that sounds much nicer, anyway. :D LOL... I'm sorry I'm no help with your question, though. :)

Hah! :D

I could go with dessert fairy, but for some reason at the restaurant they find it easier to say, "For special order dessert requests, please contact our pastry chef, Julie (mylastname)". :lol:

[Julie in CA]

That's because they are chefs, correct? It's also true that people know Paula Deen and Rachel Ray are 'cooks', not chefs. I understood the term chef meant some sort of certification.

Actually, I've read that Gordon Ramsay, Mario Batali, Paula Deen, and Rachel Ray are all folks who don't have culinary school diplomas, though that could be inaccurate.

[JennyD]

I had no idea that 'chef' implied any kind of academic degree. I have always thought that 'chef' means 'person in charge of cooking at a restaurant,' and 'pastry chef' means 'person in charge of desserts.'

 

Do all chefs really have degrees? I thought that it was historically more of an on-the-job profession. I don't think Jacques Pepin went to culinary school, IIRC -- I read his autobiography (which is wonderful, BTW) a while ago, but I seem to remember that he actually left school at 13 to begin working in restaurants and much later went back for a college degree through Columbia's extension school, but not in anything to do with cooking.

[bettyandbob]

Actually, I've read that Gordon Ramsay, Mario Batali, Paula Deen, and Rachel Ray are all folks who don't have culinary school diplomas, though that could be inaccurate.

 

 

Do Rachel Ray and Paula Deen call themselves chefs? I don't think Rachel Ray does.

 

Didn't Gordon Ramsay and Mario Batali both do official apprenticeships? I would consider the apprenticeship equivalent to culinary school.

 

In response to the OP, I guess if would let the restaurant give you the title they want to give you. I don't think it's particularly wrong to accept this title since the meaning is so varied to many people.

 

ETA: what about "pastry artist"?

Edited December 18, 2011 by betty

[DianeW88]

Yes, I would expect a pastry chef to have been to a pastry school. Kinda the same way you only call a schooled chef- chef. Otherwise, they're a cook.

 

Now, that doesn't mean you can't crank out killer pastries, have a business, make stuff everyone loves--just that you would be a baker, not a pastry chef.

 

:iagree:Like calling yourself a doctor without going to med school. Only not nearly as serious. :D

[Carpe]

Both 'baker' and 'chef' (including all [specialty] chef) designations are from registered apprentice programs in my province. There is on the job training and classes and then paperwork to become a master (rather than apprentice). If you studied under a master pastry chef for 3 or more years (I think) you can be a pastry chef even without the classes as long as you can pass the test.

 

I have no idea if it's the same elsewhere.

[AimeeM]

The same can be said for most career fields.

If you practice medicine, but haven't been to medical school, you aren't a doctor. If you practice law, debate well, etc you aren't a lawyer unless you've been to law school.

Just because you gain experience in the field doesn't mean you are just as qualified (or have the legal certs to prove you are legally qualified) to practice within that field as the professional, degree holding same.

 

OP - I would consider you able to do something I am not. I would even hire you as such. I would not, however, call you a pastry chef unless you had the professional training most in the field have in order to call yourself such. I would feel misled if you presented yourself as a pastry chef, only to find out you never went to school to become a pastry chef. That is just a personal opinion though. I know many do not care one way or another.

No, actually you can become a chef by being an apprentice to a chef as well.

 

 

If you can produce professional grade desserts, and have worked in the industry for a good amount of time I would consider you a chef. If it makes you uncomfortable you can always refer to yourself as a chef by trade. I hear that a lot for those who haven't graduated a formal school.

 

My brother has his degree as a professional pastry chef, and he always says he has learned more actually working than in school. He calls it a waste. Also my husband is a chef, first by trade then after 20 years in the industry with degree. He agrees that you learn much more from a good apprenticeship then in school.

 

HTH!

[AimeeM]

I will add that chef school, from what I understand, includes a bit more than just teaching a person to cook. It's my understanding that they offer insight into the restaurant/pastry business, give extensive training and certs in kitchen safety and cleanliness, cross contamination etc; things a self taught "chef" may be lacking. These are just as important to me as your ability to bang out an awesome cake.

[Rosie_0801]

No, actually you can become a chef by being an apprentice to a chef as well.

 

:iagree: I'd assume the person had done an apprenticeship, or had at least done enough years of practice in their own kitchen to have achieved that level of competence. Actually, a pastry chef who has a degree but hasn't done either of the previous wouldn't seem as chef-like to me. I don't know why...

 

But chef and pastry chef are two quite different things to me. And I think comparing a chef to a lawyer is comparing apples to oranges. A chef was traditionally a trade and you served an apprenticeship and passed tests. A lawyer has always been (as far as I know anyway) a profession and to qualify you studied at university then passed tests.

 

Rosie

[Jumping In Puddles]

Well, a baker would be something different, though I agree with you about the degree requirement. My employer has a different perspective, and with the proliferation of "chefs" without degrees, I'm finding it difficult to insist that my title should be something other than the job I'm doing, kwim? It's been pointed out to me that most people think of and refer to Gordon Ramsay, Mario Batali, etc, as chefs, even though they don't hold the professional degree or certification, and that if you're filling the job, you have the title.

 

Thanks for the input. I think I should stick to my guns. :001_smile:

 

I would never refer to Mario Batali as a chef. He is a restaurateur, cookbook author and a TV personality but I admit I'm not sure - maybe most people would refer to him as a chef. What you actually see on TV from celebrity "chefs" is the face of an entire team of trained chefs, prop stylists, food stylists, script writers producers etc.

 

It is the middle of the night here so I may be not reading this right, but your boss would like you to be called the restaurant's Pastry Chef and you don't want to be called that because you don't have a degree?

 

If that is the case, just keep in mind that it is in the restaurant owners best interest to designate you as the pastry chef instead of "the lady that makes our desserts."

 

I probably wouldn't refer to/introduce myself as a Pastry Chef though.. but I would be totally understanding if the chef/owner wanted to use the term for me in the context above ("please contact the pastry chef... ")

 

In general, I think an apprenticeship can equal a degree but that is also different than someone who knows how to bake well and can follow recipes and was hired by a local restaurant to bake the desserts.

[MtnTeaching]

The same can be said for most career fields.

If you practice medicine, but haven't been to medical school, you aren't a doctor. If you practice law, debate well, etc you aren't a lawyer unless you've been to law school.

Just because you gain experience in the field doesn't mean you are just as qualified (or have the legal certs to prove you are legally qualified) to practice within that field as the professional, degree holding same.

 

Uh oh... does this mean I cannot call myself a "Teacher" anymore since my degree is in Business Management and Business Law?:D

[MtnTeaching]

Here's an interesting article you may want to read regarding this.

 

It is entitled "How to Become a Professional Pastry Chef".

[LaxMom]

Have you worked much in restaurants?

 

and yes you seem like the voice of reason on this thread as compared to "if you didnt go to culinary school you are like a lawyer who didnt go to law school."

 

Which, btw, used to be the norm. In fact in VA one can still "read law" and become a lawyer.

 

:iagree: That comparison doesn't work for me, either. The ability to practice law or medicine is a designation of licensure, not education. You can have the education and still not be able to practice because of failure to take or pass the licensing exams. That is not the case for a pastry chef.

[LaxMom]

I hear you. I worked in restaurants in highschool and after. I think I decided I was too old for that carp by the time I was 25. :lol:

[Jumping In Puddles]

Many many chefs have never been to culinary school. I dont think the WTM is really any sort of place to consult about culinary training. It wouldnt be my top source for info at any rate.

 

It wouldn't be my top source for info either but a bit of discussion among laymen can sometimes give you a feel for what potential customers are thinking.

 

I also went to culinary school. I worked in a restaurant for many years before going to culinary school which is exactly what I think everyone should do before going to school.

 

Even though I worked in an excellent restaurant, I had to go to culinary school to break into the food media field. It was worth it for me because I was hired by the company where I did my externship.

 

Culinary School is not a waste of time or money for everyone. If you want to be a line cook, a sous chef, pastry chef (often just considered the cook who "does the desserts") in restaurants you will most likely never need to go to culinary school. If you are incredibly ambitious and your dream is to - say, be a pastry chef at Jean Georges in NYC, then your best shot is to be coming out of culinary school specializing in pastry. Then you will need to work long hours for little pay until you prove that you have the talent and knowledge. This is probably the faster route for most cooks.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Jumping In Puddles

[Jumping In Puddles]

Yep. One could learn the pastry part on their own at home. But working as a pastry chef really comes with working in that job for a time. In a lot of cases working in restaurants and bakeries is kinda like working in a factory (I worked in 2 factories...there isn't much I haven't tried :lol:). It's hot. It's hard. It's heavy. You deal with picky grumpy people. The hours are inhumane. There isn't much sunlight.

 

...and that is why I went to culinary school! :lol:

 

To go to school to land a job (quite typical IMHO) like the one above is insanity!

[Twigs]

Would you expect that a pastry chef have a degree? No … There is a common perspective that if you're doing the job of a chef, you're a chef, …

:iagree:

 

Do job, get the title. …

:iagree:

 

I had no idea that 'chef' implied any kind of academic degree. … I thought that it was historically more of an on-the-job profession. …

:iagree:

 

I'd assume the person had done an apprenticeship, or had at least done enough years of practice in their own kitchen to have achieved that level of competence. Actually, a pastry chef who has a degree but hasn't done either of the previous wouldn't seem as chef-like to me. I don't know why...

:iagree:

 

That comparison doesn't work for me, either. The ability to practice law or medicine is a designation of licensure, not education. You can have the education and still not be able to practice because of failure to take or pass the licensing exams. That is not the case for a pastry chef.

:iagree:

 

Best wishes

[Tigger]

I had no idea that 'chef' implied any kind of academic degree. I have always thought that 'chef' means 'person in charge of cooking at a restaurant,' and 'pastry chef' means 'person in charge of desserts.'

 

Do all chefs really have degrees? I thought that it was historically more of an on-the-job profession. I don't think Jacques Pepin went to culinary school, IIRC -- I read his autobiography (which is wonderful, BTW) a while ago, but I seem to remember that he actually left school at 13 to begin working in restaurants and much later went back for a college degree through Columbia's extension school, but not in anything to do with cooking.

 

Traditionally cooking is a trade, not requiring a degree, but definitely requiring a working through the ranks to earn a level of mastery to define your position. My grandfather was a master baker, having gone through apprenticeship, then a journeyman and eventually entering the master's school to be recognized as a master himself once he'd reach that level himself; thus earning the right to call himself a master and to also accept apprentices under his guidance to teach.

[Osmosis Mom]

Many many chefs have never been to culinary school. I dont think the WTM is really any sort of place to consult about culinary training. It wouldnt be my top source for info at any rate.

 

The beauty of this board is that we havr an unlimited number of resources here, so of course coming here to ask makes perfect sense.

[Parrothead]

Many many chefs have never been to culinary school. I dont think the WTM is really any sort of place to consult about culinary training. It wouldnt be my top source for info at any rate.

With thinking like that SWB ought to shut down the General Board. :D

[mirth]

Would you expect that a pastry chef have a degree?

Though I'm employed as a pastry chef, I don't have the degree, and I've been resistant to using the designation. At the same time, it's really the easiest way to describe what I do professionally. There is a common perspective that if you're doing the job of a chef, you're a chef, regardless of how you came about the skills and experience. What do you think?

 

I do not necessarily expect a degree.

 

http://www.frenchpastryschool.com/about_us/sebastien_canonne.html

 

See that little red, white, and blue collar the guy is wearing? It is worth more than any degree, title, or laundry list of training he spit out. It is actually illegal to wear that collar in France if you have not received the thumbs-up in a contest given by an elite group of French pastry chefs (MOF). Some guys who have lost in the contest actually run their own pastry academies!

[justamouse]

I do not necessarily expect a degree.

 

http://www.frenchpastryschool.com/about_us/sebastien_canonne.html

 

See that little red, white, and blue collar the guy is wearing? It is worth more than any degree, title, or laundry list of training he spit out. It is actually illegal to wear that collar in France if you have not received the thumbs-up in a contest given by an elite group of French pastry chefs (MOF). Some guys who have lost in the contest actually run their own pastry academies!

:iagree:

 

I'm not ignorant of working in a kitchen. However, the chefs I know are chefs who graduated from culinary school. Look, we all know that working in numerous kitchens is the education of the rubber hitting the road. But the other 'chef by trades' I know would never call themselves a 'chef' in front of a chef who went to school.

[Jumping In Puddles]

 

Another thing people don't probably realize is that you spend a lot of time cleaning. I mean it's at least half cleaning. I had a dishwasher, but I still had to help him wash pots (huge pots the size I could sit in), mop floors, clean stoves and other equipment, scrub walls, snake drains, deal with pests, etc.

 

The cleaning is the worst part of the job. On weekends, the clean up would be 11:30 at night! I'm going to have nightmares tonight! :tongue_smilie::tongue_smilie:

 

I have friends that work for Kraft testing and tasting recipes and they have easy 9-5 gigs too. Again, that requires culinary school (or a major in Home Ec).

 

One of the easiest and best paying jobs one can get without school is as a private chef. The jobs are out there for the jobs with better working conditions but there are more options for those with the CS degree. I also agree with you that people are going to culinary school and taking the jobs that don't need a degree. It is not so much that they don't learn anything, but the price $$$$$$$ of school is ridiculous. :001_huh:

[JFSinIL]

I would think if a person worked hard and made it to the top post at a restaurant, the underlings would refer to him/her as "chef" whether or not that person had a piece of paper under their belt. To the rest of us that person might be thought of as a chef - or head cook. Not sure.

 

I have a nephew who is a chef - from a 4-year school (CIA I think - he certainly has the big student loans!) and a niece who got a two-year certificate from Kendall College in Chicago as a pastry chef. Both are working.

[deacongirl]

Yes, I would expect a pastry chef to have been to a pastry school. Kinda the same way you only call a schooled chef- chef. Otherwise, they're a cook.

 

Now, that doesn't mean you can't crank out killer pastries, have a business, make stuff everyone loves--just that you would be a baker, not a pastry chef.

 

Yes, I agree. It drove me crazy on some cooking show on Food Network a few years ago when the host kept calling everyone a master chef (when they were not in fact master chefs). My husband went to hotel school and we have friends who are certified master chefs, and they worked incredibly hard to earn their titles.

 

That said--you can be an amazing cook and have a great career in the industry even without the title, but I am for accuracy in this case.

[deacongirl]

:iagree:

 

I don't think these are the sorts of people most restaurants necessarily seek though (unless it is an ultra fancy place which isn't most places to be honest). A restaurant owner/backer can work with a person who works hard, but maybe doesn't have the background. A restaurant owner/backer does not want to deal with a culinary school graduate who can't/won't work hard or doesn't have the ability to lead the staff. It's a lot more than cooking.

I agree with this--but I have yet to meet anyone working in a restaurant kitchen, degree or no degree, who doesn't work their a$$ off.

[Julie in CA]

It is the middle of the night here so I may be not reading this right, but your boss would like you to be called the restaurant's Pastry Chef and you don't want to be called that because you don't have a degree?

 

If that is the case, just keep in mind that it is in the restaurant owners best interest to designate you as the pastry chef instead of "the lady that makes our desserts."

 

I probably wouldn't refer to/introduce myself as a Pastry Chef though.. but I would be totally understanding if the chef/owner wanted to use the term for me in the context above ("please contact the pastry chef... ")

Yes, that's the situation. I never refer to myself as a pastry chef. I say that I "make all of the desserts for a local restaurant".

 

I can understand the owner's perspective, it just makes me uncomfortable and presents me as something I'm not, even though yes, that's the job I hold.

[snickelfritz]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_kind_of_education_do_you_need_to_become_a_pastry_chef

 

http://education-portal.com/articles/Dessert_and_Pastry_Chef_Educational_Requirements.html

 

I googled. I saw "degree", "apprentice", and "on the job training" as various ways to get training.

 

I think you can be called a pastry chef for the purposes your employee wants. Most jobs will go on to lust more specific requirements, when hiring. "A pastry chef with a degree and 2+ years of experience, etc...)

[Julie in CA]

I went to bed and awoke to lots of input. Thank you!

So, there's clearly a mixed opinion on this. I just wanted to reiterate that I *don't* refer to myself as a pastry chef (except a handful of times over the years when it was the easiest way to get the point across), I'm just considering whether it's something I should attempt to correct at the restaurant where I currently work. I think I'll probably leave it alone, because I like my job and it's probably not worth bringing up as an issue. :001_smile:

[snickelfritz]

I went to bed and awoke to lots of input. Thank you!

So, there's clearly a mixed opinion on this. I just wanted to reiterate that I *don't* refer to myself as a pastry chef (except a handful of times over the years when it was the easiest way to get the point across), I'm just considering whether it's something I should attempt to correct at the restaurant where I currently work. I think I'll probably leave it alone, because I like my job and it's probably not worth bringing up as an issue. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:

 

Your boss knows your qualifications.

 

My dh is the COO of his company. He's an engineer by degree. No one calls him "just" an engineer. Company literature, websites, letterhead, etc... All refer to him as COO.

[MHowell]

I asked DH, since he is the expert in this situation and not me, and he said when he worked at a top restaurant in SF and needed to hire a new chef they considered 4-5 years as a sous or lead position the same as a degree. Of course, part of applying was the top candidates were required to participate in a cooking demo, where they had to show their skill ability. He also stated that those with little to no experience and just a degree rarely got hired. He said he has never required or seen required a pastry chef position needing a degree, just the experience and ability testing to be up to par.

 

Even after all the years in restaurants, and culinary school, my DH still can't make eggs to save his life. Lucky for him he's never worked anywhere that serves breakfast! So culinary school obviously can't teach everything!

[MtnTeaching]

Even after all the years in restaurants, and culinary school, my DH still can't make eggs to save his life. Lucky for him he's never worked anywhere that serves breakfast! So culinary school obviously can't teach everything!

 

:lol:

[Julie in CA]

I asked DH, since he is the expert in this situation and not me, and he said when he worked at a top restaurant in SF and needed to hire a new chef they considered 4-5 years as a sous or lead position the same as a degree. Of course, part of applying was the top candidates were required to participate in a cooking demo, where they had to show their skill ability. He also stated that those with little to no experience and just a degree rarely got hired. He said he has never required or seen required a pastry chef position needing a degree, just the experience and ability testing to be up to par.

 

Even after all the years in restaurants, and culinary school, my DH still can't make eggs to save his life. Lucky for him he's never worked anywhere that serves breakfast! So culinary school obviously can't teach everything!

Thanks Moe! This is helpful. I've been at the restaurant in my current position for seven years, and have been called upon to demonstrate my ability/skill level to official chefs (with the education, degree, and experience) several times. There was also the unfortunate time that they hired a trained pastry chef to ease my workload for a time. It was terrible! I'm not sure how one can graduate from culinary school with such dismal knowledge & skills. :001_huh:

[MHowell]

It was terrible! I'm not sure how one can graduate from culinary school with such dismal knowledge & skills. :001_huh:

 

Yeah, John (my brother) said other than frosting techniques he didn't learn anything that he didn't already know. When he was in his 20's he worked at big resorts at Lake Tahoe in the winter and hung out with me in the summer, but now he works at a Costco bakery. :001_rolleyes: he likes the hours and he got into a store that was union so he has amazing benefits.

 

I think you should just roll with it, and when speaking to someone if it makes you uncomfortable to call yourself a chef, go with dessert fairy! ;)

[AimeeM]

I'm not the one to ask.

I would never call myself a teacher. I have no desire to be referred to as, or seen as, a teacher. I am a mother who helps her child learn :D.

Just me though. I suppose one can call themselves anything they want so long as it's within the scope of "legal".

Uh oh... does this mean I cannot call myself a "Teacher" anymore since my degree is in Business Management and Business Law?:D