Enabling vs. Helping

[Veritaserum]

SIL and BIL live an hour away, so it wouldn't be practical to give them actual groceries.

 

I thought I got dh to understand, but I lost him when I said I was willing to help this time in the form of a grocery store gift card, but I wouldn't want to go through the same thing next month or in six months. He sees that as cruel, especially since we haven't given money to SIL before. We gave her a car, but apparently that doesn't count. :001_huh: We've given way too much money to his parents. His parents have given her money many times. They can't afford it, but they can't say no. I tried to explain that the habit of her parents giving her money is enough of a bad precedent for me to feel comfortable doing the same.

 

He doesn't get why I'm so "judgmental" about how people end up in a hard situation and he thinks it's prying and rude to inquire about a person's financial situation before giving a monetary gift. I see it as practical. I want to know that the money will actually help. If they're going to blow it on something frivolous, I'd rather keep it for my own family or give it to someone who would put it to good use.

 

We touched briefly on our financial future. He agreed that taking care of our own retirement and our own kids were higher priorities than bailing out family members. He asked if I would feel more comfortable giving monetary aid if those things were covered and I said yes. And that's true. But I refuse to be a financial burden to our children the way his parents have been to us.

 

We're at a stalemate right now. He feels like I'm making this decision for him and he doesn't like that. I wish he could just see what I see. The manipulation his mother does is so obvious. Even dd11 has noticed it. Months ago I confronted MIL about her emotionally manipulative tactics to get dh to feel responsible for her/her family's finances. She acknowledged that she should avoid doing that, but she hasn't changed. Of course. :glare:

 

One other option we discussed was to give a set amount of money to each of his siblings as their Christmas gifts. If it's Christmas, there shouldn't be an expectation of repeated gifts and SIL wouldn't be singled out for special treatment.... But I also don't want them to expect money every year.

 

I can't win with this. :sad:

[melissel]

I thought I got dh to understand, but I lost him when I said I was willing to help this time in the form of a grocery store gift card, but I wouldn't want to go through the same thing next month or in six months. He sees that as cruel, especially since we haven't given money to SIL before. We gave her a car, but apparently that doesn't count. :001_huh:

 

--------------

 

Sorry, can't quote like I should on my phone, but I wanted to say that this would be an even bigger problem for me. I was thinking earlier that I'd be willing (though not happy) to compromise on giving this one time on the condition that we don't do it again. But the fact that he's not making any compromise possible would put this into marriage counseling territory for me :( He needs to hear from someone else--someone "objective"--that what's happening here is not ok, for your family and for his extended family. Would he go to a counselor with you, even as a short-term thing?

 

:grouphug:

[kalanamak]

 

We touched briefly on our financial future. He agreed that taking care of our own retirement and our own kids were higher priorities than bailing out family members. He asked if I would feel more comfortable giving monetary aid if those things were covered and I said yes. And that's true. But I refuse to be a financial burden to our children the way his parents have been to us.

 

 

This is a step. Many men like numbers (and women, too). Can you map out a plan for saving, investing, 529s, prepaids, 401s etc. so he can see a number goal? Then make a goal on putting however much in per month (and I would say it should as much as the traffic can bear until you've gotten something substantial tucked away), and once that is reached, he has a BUDGET of what he can send to family. He can save up the monthly allotment, which kicks in after all your other savings budgets are met, and dip into that fund when one of his needs help.

 

:grouphug: It could be worse. A very, very sweet lady at work's hubby just blew $4K at the casino. If it were me, he'd need to be hiding the knives.

[staceyobu]

You are about to have six kids to take care of. I would much rather save to provide them with a college education so they can get a leg up on life than throw money at family members that may not be interested in getting anywhere.

 

If your SIL is a nurse with no kids, they can support themselves on her job alone. Easily. So, she basically wants the family with six kids to send her money because she's lazy? No thanks.

[gardenmom5]

(snip)

Anyway, MIL called last night to ask dh to give SIL money. She said she gave SIL money last month, but she can't this month. MIL is constantly rescuing her adult children from their own messes. Constantly. I think it has emotionally stunted them. Thankfully, dh is remarkably unaffected.

 

I told dh that my biggest concern is that I don't want this asking for money thing to become a dependent habit. It bothers me to help someone financially who could increase their income but chooses not to and then plays the victim. He acknowledged my concern, but is totally blind to the enabling that we've done in the past (BIL, MIL, SIL, FIL). He views it as simple charity.

 

I'll go along with it as a one-time thing because dh feels strongly about it, but it feels...wrong. Am I way off base to feel that way?

 

So done with the endless issues with his family.... :glare:

have you considered your mil's constant "resucing" is actually emotional abuse by keeping them so utterly dependent upon her? she's twisted.

 

You are correct. literally, what she is doing, is trying to get your dh into the position of enabler so she can "retire"., and it will never end until he says stop. (my grandmother tried to do it to me. she was VERY angry when I refused.)

 

How'd your dh do with the boundaries book?

 

eta: charity and enabling are two VERY different things. enabling (even if calling it charity") is VERY selfish, as it is aimed at making "the giver" feel good about doing something for someone who "can't". hence, the reason some people get into perpetually enabling relationships is so they can feel "superior" and important. making someone dependent is NOT kind, nor is it remotely Christlike. it is the antithesis of Christian Charity. Your dh needs to learn that, as his family is totally messed up in that regard.

 

true charity lifts the person you are helping. (and you feel good about yourself as a byproducet of the process.)

Edited December 1, 2011 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

(snip)

It's sad. I look at stuff from my closet and my boys' and would love to give it to her, but I wonder if I should give it to the local thrift store instead.

 

How about the local children's consignment store? and use the money yourself.

[Veritaserum]

have you considered your mil's constant "resucing" is actually emotional abuse by keeping them so utterly dependent upon her? she's twisted.

 

You are correct. literally, what she is doing, is trying to get your dh into the position of enabler so she can "retire"., and it will never end until he says stop. (my grandmother tried to do it to me. she was VERY angry when I refused.)

 

How'd your dh do with the boundaries book?

eta: charity and enabling are two VERY different things. enabling (even if calling it charity") is VERY selfish, as it is aimed at making "the giver" feel good about doing something for someone who "can't". hence, the reason some people get into perpetually enabling relationships is so they can feel "superior" and important. making someone dependent is NOT kind, nor is it remotely Christlike. it is the antithesis of Christian Charity. Your dh needs to learn that, as his family is totally messed up in that regard.

 

true charity lifts the person you are helping. (and you feel good about yourself as a byproducet of the process.)

 

He didn't read it. I couldn't sleep, so I pulled it out. I think I've gained insight about my MIL. She grew up with an abusive father and a compliant mother. I think she fears abadonment. The result is enmeshment with the lives of her adult children. She needs them to need her, hence the constant "rescuing." Even when she wants to say no, she can't because she fears abandonment. In turn, saying no to something she wants or believes she needs results in emotional manipulation until the child is brought back into compliance.

 

I agree that counseling for me and dh would be useful. We need help to work through the boundary issues with his family. They keep causing trouble for our marriage. I would love to ship his parents back to New York, but that's not going to happen. At this point I'm not sure it would change much anyway.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Veritaserum

[Tigger]

 

We're at a stalemate right now. He feels like I'm making this decision for him and he doesn't like that. I wish he could just see what I see. The manipulation his mother does is so obvious. Even dd11 has noticed it. Months ago I confronted MIL about her emotionally manipulative tactics to get dh to feel responsible for her/her family's finances. She acknowledged that she should avoid doing that, but she hasn't changed. Of course. :glare:

 

[...]

 

I can't win with this. :sad:

 

Your MIL effectively sets up what is known as a Karpman Triangle - she the victim (and by proxy your SIL is too), you the villian, your DH the hero (rescuer). It is a no win situation for you.

 

The only effective way out of it is to remove the triangle and get back to linear communication mode. Your SIL has not come to your DH to ask for the money, his mother has on her behalf - that's the triangulation and that's where you are now bad guy because you and DH are not on the same page - he's been placed in the position to convince you of something, to impose upon you a decision even he didn't make - your MIL made the decision that your DH will comply with this and he is now doing her bidding to wedge in that decision upon your marriage.

 

It would be very different if your SIL came to you and your DH, together, to ask for the money - it would be her speaking directly to you and DH, together, as a united couple, asking and then awaiting your joint reply. That isn't the case - this is not a joint decision - it is a decision made from outside the marriage and being imposed on your marriage. That is why you are the bad guy!

 

Your visceral reaction is normal - no one wants to feel imposed upon, where they're obligated without consent. Your DH doesn't feel that because this is what he grew up with, he doesn't see it because his mother installed the buttons to push and he responds as desired when she says to jump....he jumps. Now, in your marriage, he is attempting to act as her proxy to you and get you to do what she wants and your gut says it doesn't feel right because it isn't right!

 

What your MIL does is instill FOG in your DH - fear, obligation and guilt - and until he recognizes the tactics, you'll remain the bad guy here.

 

A good boundary to start with, with your DH, might be that any family members who need help - they need to come to BOTH of you, sit and discuss and then the TWO of you will decide in private and get back to them. As a couple, you will not consider any assistance that's request through someone else.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Tigger

[Veritaserum]

Your MIL effectively sets up what is known as a Karpman Triangle - she the victim (and by proxy your SIL is too), you the villian, your DH the hero (rescuer). It is a no win situation for you.

 

The only effective way out of it is to remove the triangle and get back to linear communication mode. Your SIL has not come to your DH to ask for the money, his mother has on her behalf - that's the triangulation and that's where you are now bad guy because you and DH are not on the same page - he's been placed in the position to convince you of something, to impose upon you a decision even he didn't make - your MIL made the decision that your DH will comply with this and he is now doing her bidding to wedge in that decision upon your marriage.

 

It would be very different if your SIL came to you and your DH, together, to ask for the money - it would be her speaking directly to you and DH, together, as a united couple, asking and then awaiting your joint reply. That isn't the case - this is not a joint decision - it is a decision made from outside the marriage and being imposed on your marriage. That is why you are the bad guy!

 

Your visceral reaction is normal - no one wants to feel imposed upon, where they're obligated without consent. Your DH doesn't feel that because this is what he grew up with, he doesn't see it because his mother installed the buttons to push and he responds as desired when she says to jump....he jumps. Now, in your marriage, he is attempting to act as her proxy to you and get you to do what she wants and your gut says it doesn't feel right because it isn't right!

 

What your MIL does is instill FOG in your DH - fear, obligation and guilt - and until he recognizes the tactics, you'll remain the bad guy here.

 

A good boundary to start with, with your DH, might be that any family members who need help - they need to come to BOTH of you, sit and discuss and then the TWO of you will decide in private and get back to them. As a couple, you will not consider any assistance that's request through someone else.

 

Thank you! That is what's going on here!

 

I'm not certain that MIL is consciously aware of how manipulative she is. She must be aware of it on some level, but I think she spins it all in her mind as fixing and helping.

 

I've realized that I tend to be an avoider when it comes to these issues. Middle child syndrome? I go along with things until I can't take it anymore. Then I explode and attempt to set up the boundaries I should have set in the first place.

 

I love the rule of no help unless it is privately requested by the needy party AND we both feel the help is help rather than enabling. Maybe that's too ambitious. If I could even get the first part written in stone, that would help. MIL is the queen of hinting and she loves to complain to dh about her financial woes and the troubles of other family members.

 

It's never an explicit request. It's always couched and phrased so that dh feels obligated to come to the rescue. This most recent one was phrased, "I want you to be aware that ___ is having a hard time financially. I helped her last month and it would be nice of you to consider helping her this month because I can't."

 

When I tried to point out that MIL is manipulating dh into giving, he disagreed because she didn't phrase it as an order or even a direct request.

 

Lots to think about.

[catz]

I'm the first one to jump on the "Family helps Family" soap box. But if SIL is working and they have no children and there's no health issues complicating things, I'd step back. I mean, if there were children going without food or heat or if BIL had a heart condition or something, then they could use the help. But if it's two otherwise healthy, independent adults, I wouldn't stretch my own family too much.

 

But that's my own two cents.

:iagree: I think This family has crossed the line over and over. For2healthy adults, I wouldn't do this.

[Impish]

He didn't read it. I couldn't sleep, so I pulled it out. I think I've gained insight about my MIL. She grew up with an abusive father and a compliant mother. I think she fears abadonment. The result is enmeshment with the lives of her adult children. She needs them to need her, hence the constant "rescuing." Even when she wants to say no, she can't because she fears abandonment. In turn, saying no to something she wants or believes she needs results in emotional manipulation until the child is brought back into compliance.

 

I agree that counseling for me and dh would be useful. We need help to work through the boundary issues with his family. They keep causing trouble for our marriage. I would love to ship his parents back to New York, but that's not going to happen. At this point I'm not sure it would change much anyway.

It is so hard when outsiders cause issues within the marriage. I totally understand that one. :grouphug:

[Tigger]

Thank you! That is what's going on here!

 

I'm not certain that MIL is consciously aware of how manipulative she is. She must be aware of it on some level, but I think she spins it all in her mind as fixing and helping.

 

On some level I would hazard a guess that she is aware of her methods to get what she wants, whether it's purposeful or not, she knows what works, so she uses it. I have a MIL with a diagnosed (and denied by her) cluster-B PD, so am well aware of just how difficult it is to deal with subtle and overt manipulation/triangulation and my MIL is a **master**!!!

 

I've realized that I tend to be an avoider when it comes to these issues. Middle child syndrome? I go along with things until I can't take it anymore. Then I explode and attempt to set up the boundaries I should have set in the first place.

 

I'm a first born, so I don't know how that plays into things, but I tend to bristle at my MIL's methods...now - to me they're painfully obvious and an injustice to our marriage. While I spent years letting it go to keep the peace, in the last few years I've simply refused to accept anyone triangulating me into the role of bad guy, a role I didn't create and a role I didn't consent to - I've recognized it for what it is and I'll be honest, it takes time and effort to get a DH to understand exactly WHY it's wrong and unacceptable.

 

I love the rule of no help unless it is privately requested by the needy party AND we both feel the help is help rather than enabling. Maybe that's too ambitious. If I could even get the first part written in stone, that would help. MIL is the queen of hinting and she loves to complain to dh about her financial woes and the troubles of other family members.

 

Here's what I've learned over the years - you can complain, nag, beg, cry, yell, and all that; you can attempt to change your MIL; you can drive yourself crazy trying to explain to your DH and get him on your page; you can give him books to read, articles to read, and other things to help him see; and you can and likely will resent every minute of the process.

 

But it is a process - it's work to undo decades of programming that your DH is not consciously aware of...because it plays into what you say below:

 

It's never an explicit request. It's always couched and phrased so that dh feels obligated to come to the rescue. This most recent one was phrased, "I want you to be aware that ___ is having a hard time financially. I helped her last month and it would be nice of you to consider helping her this month because I can't."

 

Whether implicit or explicit, it is still a demand for your DH to comply with his mother's request. In this case, she's requesting he use funds he's earned for his family (his marriage, wife and children) and divert it to his sister and her husband for their needs to be met without consideration for his PRIORITY, you and his kids. Because she's triangulated him - if he says no, he moves to villain status (a place no one wants to go willingly), if he says yes, you move to victim and will vacillate between that and villain because you will complain. His mother remains a good actor because she is only trying to help.

 

The triangulation is vicious because someone always has role imposed upon them they did not willingly create for them self - you are left in the position of the bad actor no matter what you do, and that's happened without your consent because it is a role imposed on you by your MIL through her triangulation in the dynamic. It is a good and effective role for her because no matter what happens, she's the good actor.....if she's denied, she'll guilt your DH about it, but she still tried, wasn't that nice of her? If he capitulates, she still is good because look what she did, she got him to help his sister. In both potential replies to his mother - you are bad actor....if he says no to her request, it's because of you.....if he says yes and you've complained to him, to him you're still bad actor because you complained and there is now tension in your marriage, which is your fault (in the dynamic), so you can't win.....it is a perfect no-win situation for you....and totally sets up MIL getting what she wants because DH is going to be annoyed with you in the process.

 

When I tried to point out that MIL is manipulating dh into giving, he disagreed because she didn't phrase it as an order or even a direct request.

 

Lots to think about.

 

In my opinion, your MIL is undermining your marriage. If she respected the fact your DH is a grown adult, with his own responsibilities and that his priority is your marriage and his kids, she'd make it a point to sit down with BOTH of you to make such a request. She doesn't do that....instead she goes to DH to create a dynamic which can only leave you the bad guy and him feeling badly no matter what he does or you do.

 

Direct line communication is the ONLY way out of these types of situations. You and your DH are married, you are ONE, which means any requests for your resources must come before both of you, together - and then you together must be given time to consider before answering the party asking. The answer your DH really needs to begin to practice with, when requests like this come from his mother is - Mom, I'm open to considering something like this WITH Veritaserum, please have SIL call or come by and talk to us and WE'LL consider whatever she asks and let HER know. Take MIL out of the dynamic of asking --- odds are very high your SIL will not do it....but she'll allow her mom to do it since it's easy and doesn't cost her anything.

[melissel]

When I tried to point out that MIL is manipulating dh into giving, he disagreed because she didn't phrase it as an order or even a direct request.

 

:banghead:

[MelanieM]

I would think that the best thing in this situation would be to eliminate as much need for discussion around this as possible (unless counseling is a possibility, as that might be a path to positive change). Maybe the best way to do that is through extreme budgeting. You could create accounts for each child for future education needs, a retirement account, long/short term savings accounts, etc. Then when a request comes in, your husband can use any leftover discretionary income as he chooses. He'll feel good about doing what he thinks he needs to do, and hopefully you'll feel good because there's a plan that's being followed and you won't need to get into these conversations again and again because at that point, it just comes down to whether there's extra or not.

 

Sending lots of good thoughts your way. This type of thing would just drive me nuts (and has in the past with my own family), so I can feel your pain. :grouphug:

Edited December 1, 2011 by MelanieM

[Joanne]

I know not everyone is a Dave Ramsey fan (and I frankly don't drink the kool-aid, but I do attend the party). He'd say that giving money in this situations is like giving an alcoholic a drink. If you DO give money, I've heard him recommend that if you give money, you have the right to say "I will only give money if you_________" work more hours, discontinue credit cards, sell the house, etc.

 

Yeah, I'd be furious. I'm going to tell dh gift card to a grocery store or nothing. Cash is too dangerous.

 

We gave the huge amounts of money to dh's parents because dh wanted to wipe out the massive credit card debt they'd carried for over twenty years. Guess who is back in debt again. :svengo: I never want to give them another dime. Dh wants to be their retirement. It's a mess.

 

I am bound and determined to not be a financial burden to my children and to teach them to take care of themselves.

 

 

:grouphug: The issues here, as evidenced by this and other posts, are serious. They'd be serious enough to me that I'd demand outside support/intervention. Your DH's perspective and dynamic with family is going to compromise your quality of life (and I am not talking "just" money) unless he gets healthy with regard to boundaries, normal, and priorities.

[sassenach]

Your MIL effectively sets up what is known as a Karpman Triangle - she the victim (and by proxy your SIL is too), you the villian, your DH the hero (rescuer). It is a no win situation for you.

 

The only effective way out of it is to remove the triangle and get back to linear communication mode. Your SIL has not come to your DH to ask for the money, his mother has on her behalf - that's the triangulation and that's where you are now bad guy because you and DH are not on the same page - he's been placed in the position to convince you of something, to impose upon you a decision even he didn't make - your MIL made the decision that your DH will comply with this and he is now doing her bidding to wedge in that decision upon your marriage.

 

It would be very different if your SIL came to you and your DH, together, to ask for the money - it would be her speaking directly to you and DH, together, as a united couple, asking and then awaiting your joint reply. That isn't the case - this is not a joint decision - it is a decision made from outside the marriage and being imposed on your marriage. That is why you are the bad guy!

 

Your visceral reaction is normal - no one wants to feel imposed upon, where they're obligated without consent. Your DH doesn't feel that because this is what he grew up with, he doesn't see it because his mother installed the buttons to push and he responds as desired when she says to jump....he jumps. Now, in your marriage, he is attempting to act as her proxy to you and get you to do what she wants and your gut says it doesn't feel right because it isn't right!

 

What your MIL does is instill FOG in your DH - fear, obligation and guilt - and until he recognizes the tactics, you'll remain the bad guy here.

 

A good boundary to start with, with your DH, might be that any family members who need help - they need to come to BOTH of you, sit and discuss and then the TWO of you will decide in private and get back to them. As a couple, you will not consider any assistance that's request through someone else.

 

I would add to the bolded that I think SIL's husband needs to be the one to ask for the money, or at least be present with SIL. It's one thing for MIL to ask on SIL's behalf, but a whole other thing for a man to humble himself to his wife's family to ask for help.

[Veritaserum]

I know not everyone is a Dave Ramsey fan (and I frankly don't drink the kool-aid, but I do attend the party). He'd say that giving money in this situations is like giving an alcoholic a drink. If you DO give money, I've heard him recommend that if you give money, you have the right to say "I will only give money if you_________" work more hours, discontinue credit cards, sell the house, etc.

 

 

 

 

:grouphug: The issues here, as evidenced by this and other posts, are serious. They'd be serious enough to me that I'd demand outside support/intervention. Your DH's perspective and dynamic with family is going to compromise your quality of life (and I am not talking "just" money) unless he gets healthy with regard to boundaries, normal, and priorities.

 

I agree. If we don't get help, if we don't set unified boundaries between us and extended family, and if he doesn't realize the extreme damage caused by his mom's meddling, I can only see divorce or absolute misery as the future. The rest of our relationship is great. But this one issue is SO difficult that it overshadows everything else.

[melissel]

Your DH's perspective and dynamic with family is going to compromise your quality of life (and I am not talking "just" money) unless he gets healthy with regard to boundaries, normal, and priorities.

 

This is a very good point. Right now it's just about money, but someday it will be about much larger issues when MIL and FIL are elderly and need care/caring for. Best to try to straighten it out now!

[meggie]

If it were me, I'd recognize the fact that DH and I needed to get on the same page ASAP. "DH, we are not unified here and unless we get unified, seriously problems are going to arise in our marriage." I wouldn't say it was the direct cause of their divorce, but my parents lack of unity in money and in law issues put a serious strain on their marriage for the entire 30 years. (They had other issues as well; those two were only part of it and they weren't combined with each other like they are in your case.)

 

Ok, in my hypothetical world, I would not show DH this thread. He would probably get defensive and feel attacked. I would calmly sit him down and say, "We are at opposite ends of the spectrum here. A compromise is not one of us getting our way and the other getting nothing. A compromise is when we meet in the middle." And then you would on paper, state his case and then state your case. If at any time emotions get hot, the other can call a five minute break. In our home, I'm usually the emotional, angry one and when I hit that point, I withdraw. DH is more even tempered, but always likes to figure it out right then. His forcing a resolution only increases my bitterness. Time out breaks are necessary.

 

Things you might want to consider pointing out: your DH might be a more "here and now" type of person. You might be a more "long term vision" type of person. If this is the case you need to point out that God put the two of you together so that both would get done. He is right; the here and now must be taken care of. You are also right; you guys need to be planning and saving for retirement and college. (At least this is how it is in our marriage. DH was much happier when I conceded he was right too). You are willing to solve this short term problem so long as he is willing to come up with a long term solution for when this problem comes up again. Compromise, compromise, compromise.

 

If you suggest that DH tell his mother that you guys are willing to help out if SIL talks to you guys personally and not through her, he will probably balk. "But that would humiliate her and it would seem like we are gloating." Your defense to this ought to be along the lines of: "We are hearing this second hand. Her finances are none of MIL's business and how we help her is none of MIL's business. I don't want to hear from SIL personally to humiliate or gloat over her, I just want to get an accurate picture of what is going on. I promise we will be exceedingly kind and understanding." (Fake the sympathy if you have to, it may be a battle lost, but could help win the war).

 

Then once you meet with SIL, you guys discuss again and meet in the middle. Again remember, compromise is not one person winning and the other losing. You state your positions again on paper, "I don't want to give her any money" and "I think we ought to give her X amount of dollars." Then meeting in the middle would involve something like, "Well how about if we give her Y amount of dollars in a grocery store gift card." Or directly paid her gas bill or something.

Edited December 1, 2011 by meggie

[Hoggirl]

Agree completely with the need for someone "objective" to let your dh see what is really going on. I am wondering if this isn't a pride issue on his part? As a PP said about his being the "hero/rescuer."

 

Does your husband have any idea how much it is going to cost to send your children to college? Are you saving for that now? Or is this taking money away from their futures? I fear your dh is only thinking in the here and now. Budgeting both short and long-term was an excellent suggestion. Not knowing what your wealth status is, it may not be an issue for you at all to give to them. Meaning, you may have no debt, no mortgage, fully funded college funds for all six of your children, etc. BUT, even if you are multimillionaires the answer should still be an emphatic, "No." The ability to give does not make it right.

 

Also (gently asking this), does your husband view it as his money b/c he is the one who earns it? In other words, does he feel like you should have no real say? This concerns me greatly.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Hoggirl

[arghmatey]

Thank you! That is what's going on here!

 

I'm not certain that MIL is consciously aware of how manipulative she is. She must be aware of it on some level, but I think she spins it all in her mind as fixing and helping.

 

I've realized that I tend to be an avoider when it comes to these issues. Middle child syndrome? I go along with things until I can't take it anymore. Then I explode and attempt to set up the boundaries I should have set in the first place.

 

I love the rule of no help unless it is privately requested by the needy party AND we both feel the help is help rather than enabling. Maybe that's too ambitious. If I could even get the first part written in stone, that would help. MIL is the queen of hinting and she loves to complain to dh about her financial woes and the troubles of other family members.

 

It's never an explicit request. It's always couched and phrased so that dh feels obligated to come to the rescue. This most recent one was phrased, "I want you to be aware that ___ is having a hard time financially. I helped her last month and it would be nice of you to consider helping her this month because I can't."

 

When I tried to point out that MIL is manipulating dh into giving, he disagreed because she didn't phrase it as an order or even a direct request.

 

Lots to think about.

 

He has been trained by decades of manipulation and may never see the light.

[gardenmom5]

. . . I love the rule of no help unless it is privately requested by the needy party AND we both feel the help is help rather than enabling. . . . MIL is the queen of hinting and she loves to complain to dh about her financial woes and the troubles of other family members.

 

It's never an explicit request. It's always couched and phrased so that dh feels obligated to come to the rescue. This most recent one was phrased, "I want you to be aware that ___ is having a hard time financially. I helped her last month and it would be nice of you to consider helping her this month because I can't."

 

When I tried to point out that MIL is manipulating dh into giving, he disagreed because she didn't phrase it as an order or even a direct request.

 

Lots to think about.

 

if you can get your dh to require the recipient to come to him and make a direct request for assitance, that would be a huge step of progress.

 

Instead of attempting to point out the manipulation -which will cause him to shutdown and not listen - have you tried stating "sil hasn't even asked us, so how do you know they actually need anything?" and that you need to hear it from them. You could even see if he will call his sister, and ask her directly if they "need" help. bypass mil.

 

I was able to do that early in my marriage with my mother and grandmother. my sister had to "eat it" one time. a family dinner and dh was BBQing steaks. when he asked her how she liked her stake she announced, she doesn't eat beef, and didn't want one. then, during the prayer on the food, yelled "where's my steak?" oh? I thought you didn't want one. so sorry. How would you like it? "no, I don't want one". (playing her victim card. my grandmother was furious - with US for not going against her stated preferance - because she was being a martyr -and making her one anyway.)

[DusksAngel]

If it were me, I'd recognize the fact that DH and I needed to get on the same page ASAP. "DH, we are not unified here and unless we get unified, seriously problems are going to arise in our marriage." I wouldn't say it was the direct cause of their divorce, but my parents lack of unity in money and in law issues put a serious strain on their marriage for the entire 30 years. (They had other issues as well; those two were only part of it and they weren't combined with each other like they are in your case.)

 

Ok, in my hypothetical world, I would not show DH this thread. He would probably get defensive and feel attacked. I would calmly sit him down and say, "We are at opposite ends of the spectrum here. A compromise is not one of us getting our way and the other getting nothing. A compromise is when we meet in the middle." And then you would on paper, state his case and then state your case. If at any time emotions get hot, the other can call a five minute break. In our home, I'm usually the emotional, angry one and when I hit that point, I withdraw. DH is more even tempered, but always likes to figure it out right then. His forcing a resolution only increases my bitterness. Time out breaks are necessary.

 

Things you might want to consider pointing out: your DH might be a more "here and now" type of person. You might be a more "long term vision" type of person. If this is the case you need to point out that God put the two of you together so that both would get done. He is right; the here and now must be taken care of. You are also right; you guys need to be planning and saving for retirement and college. (At least this is how it is in our marriage. DH was much happier when I conceded he was right too). You are willing to solve this short term problem so long as he is willing to come up with a long term solution for when this problem comes up again. Compromise, compromise, compromise.

 

If you suggest that DH tell his mother that you guys are willing to help out if SIL talks to you guys personally and not through him, he will probably balk. "But that would humiliate her and it would seem like we are gloating." Your defense to this ought to be along the lines of: "We are hearing this second hand. Her finances are none of MIL's business and how we help her is none of MIL's business. I don't want to hear from SIL personally to humiliate or gloat over her, I just want to get an accurate picture of what is going on. I promise we will be exceedingly kind and understanding." (Fake the sympathy if you have to, it may be a battle lost, but could help win the war).

 

Then once you meet with SIL, you guys discuss again and meet in the middle. Again remember, compromise is not one person winning and the other losing. You state your positions again on paper, "I don't want to give her any money" and "I think we ought to give her X amount of dollars." Then meeting in the middle would involve something like, "Well how about if we give her Y amount of dollars in a grocery store gift card." Or directly paid her gas bill or something.

 

Another reason for this is that they may not WANT his help. Or feel that they need it. It's rather rude to ASSUME that just because MIL says she needs the money that she actually DOES.

 

 

[Teresa in MO]

we were in a similar situation last year. My gut said a loud NO! I did give in and it has been a nightmare ever since. How I wish I had gone with my gut! My dh would have been mad for awhile, but he would have gotten over it. There has been so much pressure on our marriage. My dh deeply regrets doing this and we are finally working on repairing the damage. The situation is still ongoing, but we are dealing with it differently. So, please GO WITH YOUR GUT!

[Veritaserum]

I'm going to call the counselor dd11 has been seeing (ADHD-related behavioral issues). The counselor also works with couples. She's usually booked, but maybe I can get an emergency appointment or be put on a cancellations list. Whether or not dh comes with me, I need help.

[Retired]

I agree. If we don't get help, if we don't set unified boundaries between us and extended family, and if he doesn't realize the extreme damage caused by his mom's meddling, I can only see divorce or absolute misery as the future. The rest of our relationship is great. But this one issue is SO difficult that it overshadows everything else.

 

:grouphug: I know where you are coming from but I had to make decisions between my family and my dh. I grew up with same stuff your dh is dealing with. I was told from the youngest age I was the oldest that it was my responsiblity to take care of my mom and siblings. I was always the caregiver and the real parent in my home.

 

my dh has been great but you can only take so much - he understand my parents come from abuse/dysfunction and carry baggage which also meant I was raised with the baggage. The thing is I am the only "normal" one as my dh likes to say

 

they have lived with us which was horrible, we have given them money for food then they go buy some dog :smash: and just use community food stuff

 

they will give every time to my sibling then call for money

 

I had to finally spell it out. Mom we will not help you as long as you continue to make stupid decision and help my sibling with money you do not have.

 

I told my sibling that I would give them food money but then found out my brother bought alcohol with it. I just quit.

 

 

 

You need to ask him would he be as giving if it was Your family. It may wake him up.

[meggie]

Another reason for this is that they may not WANT his help. Or feel that they need it. It's rather rude to ASSUME that just because MIL says she needs the money that she actually DOES.

 

 

 

it is a true and valid reason, but the point was more to get MIL out without Verituserum having to say, "we need to get MIL out".

[QuirkyKapers]

I am so sorry. These family situations are really difficult to deal with. I know that I can make a logical argument about why not to do something. However, my dh isn't making his decision the same way. His way add the emotional content and it just makes it hard.

Edited December 1, 2011 by QuirkyKapers

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Laura, I hope the counselor will be able to help. You have been so patient. :grouphug:

 

(Is anyone else printing Tigger's posts to staple in the back of their Boundaries book? Thanks, Tigger!)

[meggie]

 

When I tried to point out that MIL is manipulating dh into giving, he disagreed because she didn't phrase it as an order or even a direct request.

 

Lots to think about.

 

"Dh, if she didn't want to manipulate you, she would have just come out and said, 'You are a selfish and greedy brother unless you give your sister money.' The fact that she got you to FEEL that way without saying it is what makes it manipulative."

 

I'm so sorry it's causing so many problems. In the case of my parents it was like a battering ram that came over and over and over. I'll pray that counseling helps.

[meggie]

Laura, I hope the counselor will be able to help. You have been so patient. :grouphug:

 

(Is anyone else printing Tigger's posts to staple in the back of their Boundaries book? Thanks, Tigger!)

No, but I'm recognizing some signs with my mother that I dislike. :glare: I've been so worried about DH's parents for seven years that I totally forgot about her!!!

[Harriet Vane]

:grouphug:

 

This is a hard situation and I can see what a toll this is taking on you.

 

I applaud your willingness to get therapy.

 

You might consider getting a referral to a male therapist. Your dh might feel more comfortable with a male???

 

Also, would any part of this be considered a cultural issue? If so, your dh may need to understand your concerns within the context/framework of that culture.

[DusksAngel]

it is a true and valid reason, but the point was more to get MIL out without Verituserum having to say, "we need to get MIL out".

 

I was adding to your argument :)

[Veritaserum]

No cultural issues. He's a white American just like me. His mother has a lot of baggage from her childhood, including abuse that I'm sure is why she both can't say no when she should and can't hear no, either. She taught that behavior to dh. If a family member asks for something, you say yes because you are a bad person if you say no.

 

I have half a mind to call her to talk about appropriate boundaries. I think the problem is that she is oblivious to the damaging effects of her behavior instead of being a manipulative, conniving monster. Worth a shot? There isn't anything else to lose.

 

I called the counselor. The receptionist said the next available appointment is in February. I said we were having a crisis and would be willing to see another therapist in the office if we could get in sooner. He said he'd talk to the counselor and see if she could work us in earlier.

[Impish]

I have half a mind to call her to talk about appropriate boundaries. I think the problem is that she is oblivious to the damaging effects of her behavior instead of being a manipulative, conniving monster. Worth a shot? There isn't anything else to lose.

 

I called the counselor. The receptionist said the next available appointment is in February. I said we were having a crisis and would be willing to see another therapist in the office if we could get in sooner. He said he'd talk to the counselor and see if she could work us in earlier.

With *my* dh, I'd talk to him before calling MIL. Frankly, the Wife calling MIL would be taken as cutting his b*lls off unless he's a willing co-conspirator in the event. Plus, the knoweledge that she's causing strife in our marriage would only encourage a) upping of behaviour b) family gossip.

 

YMMV.

[gardenmom5]

. . .

I have half a mind to call her to talk about appropriate boundaries. I think the problem is that she is oblivious to the damaging effects of her behavior instead of being a manipulative, conniving monster. Worth a shot? There isn't anything else to lose.

 

. . .

 

I think that would be a mistake, and that it would be turned around on you and make things 100X's worse. You said you've mentioned it to her before, she agreed with you, and does it anyway. she doens't want to change. a person doens't have to be aware of what they are doing to be a manipulative conniving monster. she knows this behavior gets her what she wants, that's all she cares about so why should she change? it's sick.

 

dh has a favorite saying (and he applies it to his own mother too.) don't try and teach a pig to sing. it wastes your time, and annoys the pig.

[5kidsforME]

With *my* dh, I'd talk to him before calling MIL. Frankly, the Wife calling MIL would be taken as cutting his b*lls off unless he's a willing co-conspirator in the event. Plus, the knoweledge that she's causing strife in our marriage would only encourage a) upping of behaviour b) family gossip.

 

YMMV.

 

I think that would be a mistake, and that it would be turned around on you and make things 100X's worse. You said you've mentioned it to her before, she agreed with you, and does it anyway. she doens't want to change. a person doens't have to be aware of what they are doing to be a manipulative conniving monster. she knows this behavior gets her what she wants, that's all she cares about so why should she change? it's sick.

 

dh has a favorite saying (and he applies it to his own mother too.) don't try and teach a pig to sing. it wastes your time, and annoys the pig.

 

I have to agree with both of the above. Years ago I went to a counselor. One of my biggest topics was how my mil was, and still is for that matter. My counselor said. unfortunately, in almost every area, it had to be my dh that put his foot down with them. He said if I tried to talk to them it would be like talking to a wall.

 

(FTR- I JUST now figured out how to multi-quote!!!!! Woooohoooooo)

[Joanne]

No cultural issues. He's a white American just like me. His mother has a lot of baggage from her childhood, including abuse that I'm sure is why she both can't say no when she should and can't hear no, either. She taught that behavior to dh. If a family member asks for something, you say yes because you are a bad person if you say no.

 

I have half a mind to call her to talk about appropriate boundaries. I think the problem is that she is oblivious to the damaging effects of her behavior instead of being a manipulative, conniving monster. Worth a shot? There isn't anything else to lose.

 

I called the counselor. The receptionist said the next available appointment is in February. I said we were having a crisis and would be willing to see another therapist in the office if we could get in sooner. He said he'd talk to the counselor and see if she could work us in earlier.

 

It would be inappropriate boundaries for you to call her. ;) In addition, talking "boundaries" with the boundaryless is futile. She'll use the call as fodder for dysfunction and gossip, rather than help.

 

I hear the frustration (and fear) behind the desire to call, though. :grouphug:

[Harriet Vane]

No cultural issues. He's a white American just like me. His mother has a lot of baggage from her childhood, including abuse that I'm sure is why she both can't say no when she should and can't hear no, either. She taught that behavior to dh. If a family member asks for something, you say yes because you are a bad person if you say no.

 

I have half a mind to call her to talk about appropriate boundaries. I think the problem is that she is oblivious to the damaging effects of her behavior instead of being a manipulative, conniving monster. Worth a shot? There isn't anything else to lose.

 

I called the counselor. The receptionist said the next available appointment is in February. I said we were having a crisis and would be willing to see another therapist in the office if we could get in sooner. He said he'd talk to the counselor and see if she could work us in earlier.

 

Do NOT call the mil. This will backfire on you, big-time and the drama will escalate. She will not change, and there will be a lot of unpleasantness.

 

I would advise you to put your energy into your relationship with your own dh. Trying to change the family system will suck all your energy and will be ineffective.

 

:grouphug:

[meggie]

I was adding to your argument :)

 

Thank you! I know you were and I appreciate it. Sorry, I was on my phone at the time, which then started wonking out. Anyway, I just didn't want the other part to be overlooked. Veritaserum, there are two reasons for using that argument. :001_smile:

[Laurie4b]

i just read your last post. maybe it would help your dh to remember back to the beginning of the start up company and why you all (not just him) made the sacrifices to get it off the ground.

 

i'm guessing that was for your family's financial stability later on, which might include being mortgage free, helping pay for your dc's university, etc.

 

if so, then maybe he could agree to pay the dc. ie. put money into an account for them to save for university. and pay down the mortgage.

 

the equation might look like:

a (money for sibling) + b (money for each dc for college) + c (paying down the mortgage) where a = b = c

 

so if he wanted to give a thousand dollars to his sibling, then he would also agree to pay down the mortgage $1000- and put $1000- in an account for each of the dc.

 

it may help him to see he is giving away their future which he worked for, not just helping out his sibling, because the spare money isn't actually really spare money if you look ahead a few years. so it is not you being ungenerous, it is you looking out for your kids.....

 

hth,

ann

 

This is kind of what I was thinking. Unless the OP is rolling in dough, it *is* impacting their future nest egg, college fund, etc. even if they can spare the money and still take care of their own needs now. It would be a totally different thing if there was a true need, but there is not. Relatives made choices. There are consequences to choices. This is a pay-off to avoid feeling guilty.

[Tigger]

With *my* dh, I'd talk to him before calling MIL. Frankly, the Wife calling MIL would be taken as cutting his b*lls off unless he's a willing co-conspirator in the event. Plus, the knoweledge that she's causing strife in our marriage would only encourage a) upping of behaviour b) family gossip.

 

YMMV.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

did I say I agree??

 

I'll also add that it's critically important that any therapist you see has experience dealing with what is likely a personality disorder in your MIL - your run-o-the-mill marriage counselor is most likely to work to get you to go along to get along....whereas someone trained in PD's works to educate you and DH about how to effectively establish boundaries and works through a lot of the baggage with your DH in a way different way than a marriage counselor will.

 

Ask me how I know? DH and I spent 6-months with a marriage counselor in attempting to deal with his mother and the entire time I was left feeling like I was the problem - if only I was more patient, more kind, more forgiving, more able to remember she was his mother! Oh dear! I hated it because the harder I tried, the worse MIL got!

 

It was a cousin of DH (a PhD in psychology) who pointed out we were getting nowhere with it because the therapist didn't truly understand the dynamic because she wasn't experienced in dealing with PD's - she was a marriage counselor and was providing insights based on what is normally very normal tension, not understanding the full scope of exactly how damaging a PD is to all around them and that you simply cannot take the same approach with someone with a PD as you do with someone who is *normal* (for lack of a better word).

 

Things changed radically when we switched to someone with specific experience with MIL's PD - WOW - it was hard on DH and even on me, but well worth the efforts and the time we needed to work on establishing and maintaining boundaries with MIL. We still make mistakes in how we handle her, but at least we're on the same page now and DH quite often is now the one to first recognize the things his mother is doing to manipulate!

[Impish]

I swear, that's why we'd not go for counselling about MIL. There's no way the average marriage counsellor would a) believe us about the carp that happens b)be effective in helping us manage.

 

Heck, we live this, and there are still times when we look at each other in slack jawed wonder and ask, "Do you believe this?" :lol:

 

Veritaserum, I really hope and pray that you and your dh can get on the same page to deal w/all of this. :grouphug:

[Veritaserum]

We had a good talk last night and set some ground rules. If those are really followed, things will be better. Still trying to find a therapist. I look for someone who deals with PD.

 

Thanks for the support.

[southcarolinamom]

:grouphug:

[Truscifi]

I agree. If we don't get help, if we don't set unified boundaries between us and extended family, and if he doesn't realize the extreme damage caused by his mom's meddling, I can only see divorce or absolute misery as the future. The rest of our relationship is great. But this one issue is SO difficult that it overshadows everything else.

 

Does your dh know this? Have you communicated this to him explicitly (though maybe without mentioning divorce)?

 

I had a totally different issue with my dh the first few years of our marriage, partly because I never actually told him how serious it was to me. Other things had to happen as well, but me finally laying it out for him - that I was that unhappy and even considering moving out unless he changed - was the start of him changing.

[Catwoman]

Honestly, I'm not inclined to fork over more money to dh's family because they don't seem down due to poor circumstances only. They seem to choose it. In SIL's shoes, I'd pick up as many shifts as I could (she's a nurse and could easily get more hours). That's the logical thing to do if you're short on money and can increase your income by working more.

 

I have read quite a bit of this thread, and I don't understand why you don't just tell your dh that you will absolutely, positively not give his family any more money. You can explain that if there was some sort of health crisis, and neither your SIL or BIL was able to work, you might feel differently.

 

If you give them the money, you're depriving your own family by helping people who are nothing more than freeloading moochers. If you're going to throw money away, it could be spent on a great vacation, a fabulous Christmas, or some very fancy electronics. If you want to be sensible about it, the money could be used to buy tons of homeschool curriculum, or be put away in a college fund for your kids or a retirement fund for you and your dh.

 

Please remember that this is your money, too, and you have every right to have an equal say in how it is spent (or saved.)

 

It sounds like your dh's family will be a money pit for many years to come, and if you don't put your foot down about it, one day you and your dh could be the ones without enough money -- because over the years, you could end up giving most of your savings to your in-laws, and if you ever have an emergency and need money, they certainly aren't going to be in a position to help you.

 

Sorry to sound so harsh, but your SIL and BIL have a lot of nerve looking for handouts when they are both perfectly capable of earning enough money.