Help me think through this spanking incident, please.

[Pink Fairy]

Colleen, it's clear to me after reading your posts that you are a reasonable, rational, compassionate woman, and in order for you to react the way you did this man must have really stepped over the line. Trust your instincts!

[Michelle in MO]

speaking up. I

 

Can you talk to the pastor of the chapel you're attending about the situation? I would have been upset, too, witnessing that situation. Could the pastor possibly give you some good counsel?

[Retired]

I was always taken out behind the church. My dad always used his belt for discipline.

I didn't know this till I was a adult but the older Christians(Men) did speak to him on my behalf. My dad did quit the whipping and spanking at church.

I still got the belt at home

 

My dad was old fashion. He would of never listen to a women.

[Jugglin'5]

I agree that the description of the spanking sounds over the top for such a young child and for simply being wiggly in church. But you also said the children seem cheerful and happy. In that situation, I would not call CPS because I think only in extreme cases are children better off in foster care than with their own families. There is a very high rate of physical and sexual abuse in foster families. It's been my own observation that children seem to respond best to strict discipline (which does not necessarily have to include spanking) combined with lots of physical affection and spoken affirmation. It sounds like although the dad may be too harsh in his discipline, he nevertheless is doing a decent job of affirming to his kids that they are loved.

 

Now that your concern is out in the open, I would certainly go to the pastor or elders and share your concerns as well as what occurred on Sunday. Hopefully, they can mediate and smooth the situation so that the man might take your concerns to heart. I agree that he probably will not listen to you, but if the men of the church think he is being too harsh, perhaps he would be willing to reconsider.

 

:iagree: Well said.

[Aubrey]

My first response, after reading only a para or so of your post was to possibly talk to the elders or pastor at your church. Someone w/ this philosophy of discipline will likely need to hear an alt. pov from someone in authority, as I'd imagine he/she wouldn't be open to hearing it from a peer, esp a woman, yet it did sound like addressing it would deeply benefit the children.

 

Initially, I didn't think it sounded like something to call CPS in on because a) it sounded like a gray area & b) in general, I'd like for parents to be able to maintain *some* decision-making power over their role as parents. Not to the point of abuse, of course, but I also don't think it's fair to call CPS over spanking.

 

Then I read the rest of your post. Oh, Colleen. If it's really as bad as you say...I think you have an obligation to call in help for these kids. I waffle on whether or not I believe in spanking. I have used it w/ my dc, on a limited basis, but...having worked in a preschool, I've seen that to some degree, a child can be trained, nurtured, etc. w/out spanking. Sometimes I worry that it's a little too convenient (in certain situations). That said, though, almost all of my friends spank. Most of them do it in ways that I personally am uncomfortable w/, but not to the point of saying so, & definitely not to the point of calling CPS.

 

I mention the above to qualify my response. I'm not making the suggestion lightly. If it were simply overuse of spanking, I'd be concerned for the future adolesence of these dc, as I believe overuse of any disciplinary form leads to rebellion. Abuse, however, is much worse.

 

:grouphug: I'm sorry you had to hear that. I'm sorry parenting is so hard & that approaches vary so widely. And I'm sorry that...these things aren't easier. I wish people would only do the right thing (incl. me!) or else that they would wear bad guy costumes & make it easier on everybody. GL, & let us know how things work out.

[WagsWife]

I wanted to add that I genuinely do like and trust this man. He is not a volatile person, not an ogre or on a power trip by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, his calm-cool-collected approach is actually what makes the discipline even harder for me to fathom. I can understand someone reaching out and slapping a child in a momentary loss of patience. When I react in anger to a child, I feel remorse and am led to apologize. Apologize not for disciplining them, but for not disciplining myself. But I can't understand a premediated whipping. That's probably the "right" way to do it, according to people who use that method. And in that regard, this guy is doing it "right". In the incident on Sunday, this man certainly wasn't angry. He was just doing what he does when one of the children misbehaves or disobeys (from his perspective) in church. And if you met this family, they're so lovely and peaceful and happy you wouldn't think his disciplinary method is harming his children. Perhaps it isn't, for all I know.

 

OK...after your first post, I was going to tell you to stay far, far away from this man. I got the impression from your first post that he was aggressive and controlling. However, after reading this...I changed my mind.

 

We spank. The way we spank is very much like what you mentioned above. There are certain things that are "spanking offenses." When it is decided that the child will receive a spanking, it is not done in anger (we will wait if we have to), because the spanking is not to relieve our anger, it is a punishment for their actions. It is in a calm, matter of fact manner. We tell them from the start how many swats they will receive (between 1 and 3 depending on what they did.) Then we proceed with the spanking...it is, in your words, very pre-meditated. I grew up with a mother who would fly off the handle over the slightest thing. Her spankings were with whatever she had within reach, and she would spank until she "felt" like we learned our lesson. My Dh and I were determined NOT to discipline like that.

 

Our girls knew from an early age that there were certain situations in which we had higher standards in how they conducted themselves. Church was one of them. Many times, I pulled one of them out (usually about the age of 3 or 4) of service, took them to the bathroom, and spanked them. One of my daughters would carry on like I was taking her to the guillotine. Anyway, I just wanted you to know that "pre-meditated" discipline CAN be normal, and healthy.

 

A couple things from both of your posts, do seem "off" to me. The incident with your son and this mans confrontation with you, makes it seems like he could be controlling and or aggressive. I also think the number of times he spanked his daughter is excessive...however there has been times (very few) we have given the girls that many swats. At first, I thought it odd that he went to his car to get the 'paddle"...however, after thinking about it...not really. Some people are very against using their hands (they feel that the hands should only show affection not discipline,) and I have had friends who have carried a spoon or something in their purse.

 

All this to say, I don't know what to think about this person. From your posts, it seems like you are talking about two different people. I would definitely talk to your Pastor, and get his input.

[summer]

I think you should report that family to CPS. Sorry. I am not big on getting child abuse authorities involved..but sometimes, a child really does need help from the outside.

[LisaNY]

I pretty much share the sentiments of those who responded.

 

I would talk to the pastor about it. I would *not* speak w/this guy alone.

 

I have spanked my girls, but what this guy is doing is, IMO, over the top.

 

Among all the things you listed, it's his treatment of your ds when he asked for seconds that stood out to me. That really leads me to believe it's all about control. Your son did not know he was breaking a "house rule". Instead of gently letting him know, he embarasses him by asking him to leave the table. Yet another way to dominate and control others. He wants his kids to obey out of fear, and not out of love. I feel sorry for his children - I really do.

 

Colleen, I'm crazy sometimes. If I thought that child was being punished excessively, I would have marched right into that bathroom and asked him what in the HECK he was doing.

[PrairieAir]

I nodded along with the rest of your post, but deeply disagree with the point above. There is a fundamental difference between an angry, whining, or manipulative cry, even an out of control one, and a truly frightened cry. There is no 4yo possessing the acting skills to put on something like that.

 

Barb

 

I wouldn't have thought so either--until I worked in a church nursery and had a child do that to me. This boy faced no threat, physical or otherwise, from me and had known me long enough to know that. I had simply told him that he couldn't take a toy from another child and that he also could not hit her. Then I took the toy out of his hand and moved the other child out of his reach. The cry scared the heck out of me. The nursery coordinator in the next room heard it and looked in in shock. I saw him do this several times to other people who I had no reason to believe he feared. It was entirely about manipulation. If you watched his face, he was looking for a reaction from the adult and would grin when he got it. I don't think it's common and I'm not saying it happened here.

 

Really, in all the things I listed, it's not that I'm trying to take the guy's side. I think he's wrong. I'm just trying to show how we have an incomplete picture and that it may not have been as bad as it sounded. If it wasn't that bad, that doesn't make it right. I would hesitate to call it *abuse* without knowing more, though. I would just be very careful about using that word.

[Robin in Tx]

Colleen, is it possible that maybe the whipping sounded worse than what it really was? I am not for that sort of discipline at all... just so you know... but since you seem to be genuinely trying to see this from his pov, I would wonder about that. Most kids who know that they are going to be spanked will be upset. And with some kids, even if the spanking is not very harsh at all, the child will melt down and scream as though they were being ripped apart limb by limb. Had the child been the quiet instead of screamed, would you have reacted the same way? I'm sure the whacks were very upsetting to you, but you need to judge them on their own, imo. There have been times that my dd has carried on, screaming and crying, that surely people around me thought I was ripping her fingernails out one by one when I wasn't even laying a hand on her. She has always been that way, even as an infant... when she is upset, her cries are ear piercing screams.

 

I think that since you otherwise respect this man, and obviously there is a need to put this behind you, I would recommend asking him if you could speak with him about this in front of the pastor. Tell him that in hindsight, you realize that that's what you should have done from the beginning... ask for a meeting with him in front of the pastor to discuss your concern about this behavior on church property. My prediction is that in the end, you will be told that spanking is not abuse and not anyone's business other than the parents, and you will be led to apologize to him for calling him an abuser. And hopefully he will be told that spanking should never be meted out in a way that can be heard or witnessed by anyone or that disturbs the peace in any way. I would just try to make sure that both him and the pastor understand that as much as it is his right to discipline his children as he sees fit, that people like you are upset by it and would really appreciate it if they kept their private disciplinary actions exactly that... private. Now that I think about it, I would ask the friend you were sitting with to attend the meeting to back up your story about how disturbing the whole scene was.

 

The other option would be just to talk to the pastor yourself and ask his advice/response. I think the man is looking for an apology for the "abuser" comment, to be honest.

 

HTH and good luck... it would have upset me, too.

Robin

[PrairieAir]

I was always taken out behind the church. My dad always used his belt for discipline.

I didn't know this till I was a adult but the older Christians(Men) did speak to him on my behalf. My dad did quit the whipping and spanking at church.

I still got the belt at home

 

My dad was old fashion. He would of never listen to a women.

 

I'm curious and I hope you don't mind my asking a personal question. Do you consider the spankings your dad gave you with a belt as abuse? I'm curious because my brother and I were both spanked with a wooden spoon (a good, seasoned one) and occasionally with a ping pong paddle. I have never once thought it was abuse and I don't believe my brother thinks of it that way either. My grandmother spanked her 9 children with a ping pong paddle, and though they feel she was neglectful and manipulative in other ways, they don't consider the spankings physical abuse. I guess she at least handled those somewhat appropriately.

[RebeccaC]

One problem with this is what it opens the church up to. While this dad might be comfortable with whipping with in ear shot of folks who thinks might have the same beliefs as him what happens when a visitor with out such beliefs hear such a whipping. What kind of witness is it to some one who may or may not even be a christian to hear such a whipping. This is the one thing from all of it that just does not sit right with me. A whipping as noisy as written could turn some one off on Christianity or this church body for a long time if not for good. What this man wants to do in his own home is one thing but when he does it in a public place he opens not only himself up but the church up to all kinds of scrutiny. This is something that really needs to be brought to the pastors attention and probably by both the women who heard it.

[Carol in Cal.]

But I have some thoughts on if you ever are in a similar position with someone else.

 

I think that talking to someone like that like a toddler who is misbehaving, where you are talking to their 'good side' while trying to focus on it, and projecting calm into the situation is sometimes helpful.

 

I have been able to do this 3 or 4 times in situations that literally turned my stomach. It's like handing someone a better tool.

 

One time the father of an acquaintance / playmate of my DD's kind of forced him into one of those bucket swings -- he was only 2-3 YO and couldn't swing by himself. The kid was terrified, screaming and holding out his arms to his father, who was completely ignoring him and swinging him higher and higher. The father was horribly embarrassed by the boy's fear, and that is why he was ignoring his wishes, and also, I think, to show that he wasn't going to cave (definately control issues in that family). Anyway, watching this made me SICK, I felt such empathy for the boy. So I went over and stood next to the father, who I did not know very well, and I smiled at him very casually and said something like, "This age is challenging, isn't it. Of course, I'm sure YOU have read those same books that I have and know that even though his fear makes him seem awfully childish, it's really a sign that he's growing up--now he can imagine things going wrong, in a way that he couldn't before, and of course that's why he's so scared. I must say, he seems to be a little bit ahead of the other children in that regard. It's a bore, but of course I guess we have to respect it." And then I smiled at him again, and walked away, and sure enough, he gave me this sheepish look as I turned and then went over and got his son out of the swing.

 

Similar results with someone who ONLY yells and hits, responding to calm, warm delivery of an alternative.

 

Now, what did I want to do? I want to run over and snatch that poor kid out of the swing and slap the dad. I wanted to tell the yeller/hitter than he was an incompetent and unimaginative parent if those were the only responses he could think of for mild correction/redirection. Those would have been immensely satisfying responses to deliver.

 

And, I don't know that my mild interventions really had any lasting effect. Maybe they just worked at the moment, and didn't deliver any new tools. I really don't know. But, I hoped that they would sort of redirect those parents, similarly to how you would redirect a child, with respect for them as people, with at least the assumption that they would prefer to do better, with warmth. I hoped that some other moment that parent would remember an alternative path, or maybe that they would try to find an alternative path for themselves.

 

Anyway, in the moment, this kind of action has worked for me every time I have tried it--maybe 4 times in all.

[Robin in Tx]

Additionally, Colleen, consider the fact that you talked to him that way and called him an abuser in front of the child. Think about how you'd feel if someone were to criticize the way you discipline your children in FRONT of your children, WHILE you were disciplining them. I'm not saying the man is right, you understand...

[Ferdie]

You know, in some states (like California) it is illegal to spank your child with anything but your hand. I would check out the law for your state and if using an object to spank is illegal I would report the incident to CPS. I think he crossed a line when he chose to discipline in public and now the spanking is a public matter.

[Colleen]

Additionally, Colleen, consider the fact that you talked to him that way and called him an abuser in front of the child. Think about how you'd feel if someone were to criticize the way you discipline your children in FRONT of your children, WHILE you were disciplining them. I'm not saying the man is right, you understand...

 

I understand, and I appreciate that you're helping me to see the other point of view, Robin. I tried in my original post to be honest about my own failings in this scenario. I admitted that the way I reacted was not beneficial and said I'm willing to apologize for my tone and words. By sitting there listening, I became emotional. (On the other hand, I was far less emotional than others might be in that situation.) Having said that, I don't believe that my tone (I wasn't rude or confrontational) or even the use of the word "abuse" had a bearing on his child. She was entirely focused on herself. I believe his displeasure lay primarily in the fact that I intervened in any way, asked him not to do that there, and asked that in front of another adult (the pastor's wife with whom I was sitting).

 

All of which is to say, I am thinking about how I'd feel. I wouldn't want to be admonished (regardless of who was or wasn't present) and wouldn't want anyone to interfere. I do believe that when one chooses to discipline in that manner, in that setting, they're inviting comment.

[Carol in Cal.]

You know, in some states (like California) it is illegal to spank your child with anything but your hand. I would check out the law for your state and if using an object to spank is illegal I would report the incident to CPS. I think he crossed a line when he chose to discipline in public and now the spanking is a public matter.

 

I think in CA it is illegal to leave marks and implements are not questioned one way or another. (Not that I favor them. Just sayin')

[sdWTMer]

I think he crossed a line when he chose to discipline in public and now the spanking is a public matter.

 

But, was he really in public? Frankly, if someone felt they had to go out to a car to mete out punishment, I would wonder about them. Maybe it's all a matter of perspective.

 

One thing that I also have noticed is that we are talking about MEN not women. Men think differently and respond differently than we do. Just wanted to put that thought out there.

[Robin in Tx]

I wouldn't report it to CPS, to be honest. This is a fellow church member and I think that first Colleen should address this through her pastor. I think it would be a huge offense to her pastor and the rest of her members if she called the law on a fellow, respected member of the church because of spanking. If it is indeed illegal in her state, I think that the pastor should be the one to decide how the church membership should handle this. Or he should at least have the chance to give his input first, and given the opportunity to resolve this privately.

[Colleen]

I'm still reading; all of you are offering such good insights. This whole thing is hanging over my head like a black cloud. Tomorrow we're going away for a couple of days to spend more time with my brother-in-law before he heads back to Switzerland, and to celebrate my oldest son's 13th birthday. I was hoping to exorcise my angst about this situation before I left but I'm afraid it's going to have to wait. I just don't know yet what to do.

 

I am definitely not calling CPS. I know some of you mentioned that, but it isn't on my radar; I don't feel it's warranted. I wish talking with the pastor/elders would reap some benefit, but as I mentioned earlier, my pastor is very hands-off when it comes to congregants' personal lives. (And to further complicate matters, the guy's dad is one of the elders.) I think Rebecca's point is well-taken, though: Much as our chapel shepherds would prefer to bury their heads in the sand, they should consider the appropriateness of conduct like this right under our noses. If this is the way I reacted ~ a good friend who has known this young man for 10+ years ~ I can only imagine the effect it would have on some others.

 

Oh, bother. I wish I hadn't been sitting in there. (Actually, the fact that I was in there is, I think, part of what bothered him. I wasn't sitting in the service; as I said, I went out because I didn't feel well. The other woman came to check on me, and we just ended up sitting in there, talking. I'm sure this particular guy looked upon that as inappropriate on my part ~ not being present for worship. When he spoke to me after the service and said I owed him an apology, he remarked that I should go somewhere else if I want to talk during church. Again, I can see his side; I was in the fellowship hall, not in the sanctuary, during worship. But good grief. Shouldn't I be able to sit elsewhere without having someone's rather pointed discplinary tactics foisted upon me?!

 

Thanks again for listening and responding.

[Colleen]

I wouldn't report it to CPS, to be honest. This is a fellow church member and I think that first Colleen should address this through her pastor. I think it would be a huge offense to her pastor and the rest of her members if she called the law on a fellow, respected member of the church because of spanking.

 

I have no intention of contacting CPS. That's been suggested by others, but it isn't a response I'm considering. (Though I do appreciate all the input, including that from people who feel strongly about reporting the incident.)

[Kelli in TN]

I'm still reading; all of you are offering such good insights. This whole thing is hanging over my head like a black cloud]

 

If you do go to your church leadership with this, I would point out that if a visitor were to be in the service that day and needed to use the restroom during the incident it could reflect badly on the whole congregation. You may not be able to change his mind about childrearing, but perhaps it could be disallowed on church property?

 

Frankly, even when I was a spanker my kids always got the "wait till we get home" warning. I never spanked in public restrooms.

[Scarlett]

the fact that I was in there is, I think, part of what bothered him. I wasn't sitting in the service; as I said, I went out because I didn't feel well. The other woman came to check on me, and we just ended up sitting in there, talking. I'm sure this particular guy looked upon that as inappropriate on my part ~ not being present for worship. When he spoke to me after the service and said I owed him an apology, he remarked that I should go somewhere else if I want to talk during church.

 

 

I don't see his point...and this is more red flags about this guy. Who does he think he is telling you where you may and may not sit to talk. You weren't bothering him except for the fact that you witnessed him spanking his child.

 

He really bugs me.

[Ferdie]

I think in CA it is illegal to leave marks and implements are not questioned one way or another. (Not that I favor them. Just sayin')

 

Carol in Cal - what is the source of your information??

 

When we adopted our foster children in Calfornia we were told by CPS that it is illegal in the state of California to spank a child with anything other than your hand. We were told that a couple of times by the adoption division and in parenting classes. This was 4 years ago so I would love to know if they have changed the law since then.

 

I am curious where you got your information from.

[Aubrey]

I wouldn't report it to CPS, to be honest. This is a fellow church member and I think that first Colleen should address this through her pastor. I think it would be a huge offense to her pastor and the rest of her members if she called the law on a fellow, respected member of the church because of spanking. If it is indeed illegal in her state, I think that the pastor should be the one to decide how the church membership should handle this. Or he should at least have the chance to give his input first, and given the opportunity to resolve this privately.

 

I can't remember how I phrased it exactly in my first post, but in a similar situation, I wouldn't have said anything to the father, & I wouldn't have called CPS *at first.* I wouldn't have said anything because I'm a big chicken, whether or not saying something is right.

 

I usually take things like this to my dh because I'm a big-time overreactor. If I were to rely on my own judgement alone, CPS might block my #, lol.

 

From there, it depends. I usually try to wait to pass judgement (such as calling CPS like I said at first)--to make *sure* it really seems nec. Going to the pastor is a great example of this, imo, however--& this is a big however--that's not because I'd be worried about offending him or the church. It's more of an act of... grace, maybe? to the guy in question. To give him a chance to talk to someone more reasonable than myself (lol) & something in between my judgement & gov't intervention. Kwim? Plus, that way if I've overreacted, there's no harm done. The guy & the pastor can laugh at me or whatever.

 

Otoh, IF real harm is being done, talking to the pastor is still fine, but not a nec step to avoid offense. Kwim? If the guy...say...I don't know...did something concretely illegal, like...beat his dc until they were bruised, etc., going to the pastor to avoid offense can delay help for the kids & serve as a kind of protection for the guy. Plus, it gives him a heads-up to get out of Dodge.

 

Not that that is this situation. Colleen has added some remarks since I first posted mine. (Or did I read them out of order? Now I can't remember...)

 

It's hard to tell from a post what's going on, just as I'd assume it's usually hard to tell what's going on from observing one incident. My main point...I think... was that "spanking" is a really large heading. I realize most of what falls under that heading is gray, but I also hate to see the label used to justify child abuse. Of course, I guess that's what makes the heading gray.

 

One more thing...in suggesting CPS, I had assumed that there would be an investigation of some sort before the children were removed. If that's not the case, then...I don't know. I'd be a LOT more hesitant to call, for sure. Since I'm not sure about this point, I really should have been more careful w/ my thoughts. I'm sorry.

 

Colleen, good luck. I hope you find the right solution.

[Erica in PA]

Without going into personal experience with these sorts of situations, I would just like to say that I've seen this dynamic in the church, and I think it's a scary trend. Young parents who are easily influenced by others whom they consider to be spiritually strong follow these examples, and take these sorts of guidelines to heart as the guide for all spiritually on-top-of-things parents. (I.e, if a toddler will not sit still and silent in church, they are being willfully disobedient and must be spanked. All babies and toddlers should be in the worship service, for its entirety, every week.).

 

Personally, I think it is wrong to spank a young child for not sitting still in church. That doesn't fall into the category of willful disobedience, to me. It falls under the category of developmental ability for the child, and personal preference of the parent. You may like the idea of your baby/toddler sitting still and silent for extended period, but imo, it doesn't make them *wrong* if they are unable to comply.

 

Erica

[Robin in Tx]

I do believe that when one chooses to discipline in that manner, in that setting, they're inviting comment.

 

I agree with that for sure.

 

I think maybe I didn't do a good job of saying what I was trying to say... what I meant was that he might not care about an apology for your tone or for intervening...that an apology for calling him an abuser is the *only* apology he might be interested in. In other words, you can say you're sorry for calling him that, without necessarily having to apologize for your tone or for saying anything else. In other words, don't apologize for not condoning that form of discipline or for asking him to not force your witness, or for having your point of view... just for going a little too far by calling him an abuser.

 

Anyhoo... I knew you had expressed your regret for your tone, etc.... I just thought maybe an apology for the "abuser" comment *alone* would satisfy him.

 

Good luck, Colleen. I hope you have a peaceful resolution to this.

 

Robin

[Trivium Academy]

I would take this to your pastor, mention his brother's comments. My dh handles inner church conflicts by these scriptures:

 

De 19,15 One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offence he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

 

Mt 18,16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

 

Being that you're more brazen than I could be, you might invite this man to meet you at the pastor's office and address your concerns there and offer an apology for your comments but that you are truly concerned for his children. I would especially highlight the "heart" issues, that his style of discipline from what you overheard is purely punitive.

 

I would refrain from attacking anymore. ;)

[Julie in CA]

Have you heard the wife's perspective on this? I'd have a heart-to-heart with her to determine whether or not she views her dh as abusive. I'm not saying that her opinion defines whether or not it's abusive, just that if she also has a sinking (probably well-stifled) fear that her dh has gone overboard, that would definitely be a sign to me that I would need to step in and take stronger action.

I agree with those who've mentioned that if you can get your dh to stand beside you on this, it will probably be more effective. If your pastor generally has a hands-off approach to issues where personal boundaries are involved, I would make a point of asking for a formal hearing of the elders of your church. If that too was denied, I actually would tell them that you believe it to be so out-of-line and unbibilical that you will do whatever it takes to affect a change (let them read between the lines that you might consider calling outside, secular authorities) if the issue is not addressed properly. Whether or not you actually *would* call CPS is not in question, just that you're considering it. You *are* considering it...(you don't have to tell them that you've already decided not to.)

Also, I should say that as a child I was spanked similarly to what you've described, and I don't consider myself at all to have been an abused child.

The spankings that I have administered to my own dc have been a bit milder than what you described. I'm not against spanking, just against the other abuses that it sometimes can be a sign of (as in this case, maybe?).

You might make it clear that you're not asking for a judgement against this man, just an "exploration" of whether his tactics have indeed gone over the line into abuse.

[Jugglin'5]

Without going into personal experience with these sorts of situations, I would just like to say that I've seen this dynamic in the church, and I think it's a scary trend. Young parents who are easily influenced by others whom they consider to be spiritually strong follow these examples, and take these sorts of guidelines to heart as the guide for all spiritually on-top-of-things parents. :iagree:

 

(I.e, if a toddler will not sit still and silent in church, they are being willfully disobedient and must be spanked. All babies and toddlers should be in the worship service, for its entirety, every week.).

 

Personally, I think it is wrong to spank a young child for not sitting still in church. That doesn't fall into the category of willful disobedience, to me. It falls under the category of developmental ability for the child, and personal preference of the parent. You may like the idea of your baby/toddler sitting still and silent for extended period, but imo, it doesn't make them *wrong* if they are unable to comply.

 

Erica

I don't agree with this part, because all 5 of my children have learned to sit relatively still and quiet through an 1 1/2 hour long service by 18 months. Most of the other families in our church, who have been willing to give it a real try, have had the same experience with their children. It is a matter of training, and, yes, occasional spanking. It is really not that difficult to accomplish. My children enjoy being active participants in the service, and I am glad they are with us.

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

Talk to Hans, and let him handle it (if he thinks its necessary). As a woman, you don't want to go to battle w/ this guy. Not that Hans would want to either, but I believe you should refer the matter on to him, and pray about it. Do the elders or pastors have familiarity w/ this doornob who whips his children in the bathroom?

 

This man's method of disciplining is going to get him in a heap of trouble w/ his children someday.

 

It's not about spanking at all. This guy sounds like an authoritarian jerk.

 

Colleen, I know you don't like the Pearl's, but you should give this jerk a copy of the Jumping Ship articles. These are among the best writings on parent/child relationships Roger and I have ever read.

 

(I am not here to debate the Pearl's writings and no offense is intended)

 

Love,

 

Camy

[Erica in PA]

I don't agree with this part' date=' because all 5 of my children have learned to sit relatively still and quiet through an 1 1/2 hour long service by 18 months. Most of the other families in our church, who have been willing to give it a real try, have had the same experience with their children. It is a matter of training, and, yes, occasional spanking. It is really not that difficult to accomplish. My children enjoy being active participants in the service, and I am glad they are with us.[/quote']

 

Just to clarify... I know that it's possible to train babies and toddlers to sit through church services, through training and spankings. I've seen it done. With enough spankings, even *babies* can "be trained" to sit still and silent for extended periods (yes, I have seen this done, and personally I believe that to be abusive.) However, imo, the fact that it is possible to accomplish an end result does not necessarily make it right or a proper, biblical use of parental authority and discipline. It is a blessing to have children participating in the worship service, no question. Where you and I differ is whether this particular situation is a biblical, gracious use of spanking.

 

Erica

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

Robin, you have a good point. His reaction may have been spurred by the confrontation, and based on the personality Colleen described, this guy may have some issues w/ being questioned or confronted in the first place.

 

 

However, I do admire Colleen's forthrightness!

 

Rock on, my friend :o).

 

Love,

 

Camy

[Laurie4b]

I do not believe that Matt 18 applies. That is about an offense to YOU and is about reconciliation. Your concern is that the children are being abused.

 

States differ in their definitions of abuse. I think you need to talk with the pastor. In most states, pastors are mandatory reporters, so if what is happening meets the definition of abuse in your state, he will know and will make the report to CPS. He is also in a much better position than we are to give you counsel about whether an apology would be something that you should do, when, and how.

 

What concerns me most is the whole "gestalt" of the situation. It would be different if you had written that this man is gentle, loving, and kind and you were uncomfortable with a paddling in the bathroom. Instead, your son's experience in being punished at their home for asking for seconds is "authoritarianism" way outside of acceptable social norms. Hosts expect to serve seconds. I've never in all my life heard that it's impolite to ask for them. In some places, it's rude NOT to ask because it signals you didn't like it.

 

I think there are loving parents who can end up doing things that they actually don't feel right about because some book or speaker convinces them that it was "God's way." For them, being freed from the restriction of one way being God's way is all it takes for change to happen. For this man, what you have described sounds like it's actually something that "fits" his personality, that he might well be doing anyway, and the "biblical" stuff is just his justification to express rage and control.

 

His kids need the church to intervene (you're right; your word at baptisms makes it "your business") and the pastor may decide that the intervention needs to involve CPS. It would be wise if it looks like it needs to be reported for one of the brothers to do it ( or both together). Normally if CPS removes kids from the home, they are placed with relatives. If the relatives know about abuse and don't report it, however, then that often disqualifies them from being considered. The prospect of foster care is not a happy one; kids are actually more likely to be abused in foster care than in their biological homes. ( I have been a foster parent and am not knocking all foster parents. However, that happens to be true.) I hope that if it comes to it, the CPS in your area is sensible and not power-crazy themselves and that if it needs to be reported they will intervene wisely and in the children's best interest. There is, unfortunately, no guarantee of that.

 

This situation needs a lot of prayer: for the kids, for the brothers, for the pastor, for what God is asking you to do.

[Rhondabee]

I would completely agree with making sure you have witnesses - at least your husband, and maybe an elder if you can - when you speak with this man. This will give you a chance to explain the situation to them before that man, and then they can hear you apologize and monitor his response. I would also speak with the pastor and suggest to him that this is a destructive family situation and the parents as well as the children may need counseling;

 

 

You spoke to him directly, instead of gossiping. Now, the second step would be to talk with him along with "two or three witnesses". Then, the whole church if necessary.

 

But, I'd probably call CPS as well.

 

Oh, Colleen, this just breaks my heart!

Rhonda

[EarleneW]

I would personally call CPS. Even if he stops doing it "in public" it will still go on at home.

[Nestof3]

I would use the church leadership first. I think the elders should speak to this man and his wife and help teach them how to lovingly raise their children. The purpose of the body of Christ is to teach other believers how to follow Jesus. The whole point of having elders is for them to intervene and help those who are sinning. The parents need as much help as the children. This father needs accountability from the male leadership at your church. He needs direction and alternate ways to train up his children.

 

I just wouldn't use an ungodly CPS as my first choice. And, if your pastor is "hands-off," I'm afraid he's in the wrong position, frankly. His primary job is to shepherd -- to lead his flock.

 

There's a lot of pressure in the Christian community to raise perfect children. Sometimes it really helps to have loving, caring people help you out along the way. With so many books and teachers teaching such an absolutely stern approach, it's hard to know there's something different. There are many parents who were not raised in a loving Christian home who have no proper model. These parents want the best for their children, read the books, and try to do it all perfectly. Sometimes it takes the love and work of others to direct this parent on the right path.

 

I have been this sort of parent who felt extreme pressure to do everything just right and follow the right plan. Perhaps I am more understanding in this situation because I know what it feels like to try so hard to follow the plan so perfectly -- concerned that I obey God. The world is full of pathetic parenting -- totally hands-off. Sometimes it's easy to swing so far to the other side because you have never had a good pattern to learn from. Be that pattern. I am thankful that I have discovered a far more graceful approach to parenting, and so thankful that I've had the support I've had.

 

Sure, this guy may be a monster. But he may also just need a little help. I'm so glad I got the help I needed before someone yanked my kids away from me.

[Jugglin'5]

Where you and I differ is whether this particular situation is a biblical, gracious use of spanking.

 

Erica

 

Actually, I agree with you that this particular situation sounds excessive. I just don't like being lumped in with it myself because I occasionally used spanking in training my children to sit in the service.:001_smile:

[Erica in PA]

Actually' date=' I agree with you that this particular situation sounds excessive. I just don't like being lumped in with it myself because I occasionally used spanking in training my children to sit in the service.:001_smile:[/quote']

 

I truly am not trying to quibble here, but I feel I should clarify... The last sentence of my previous post wasn't clear. What I meant to say was, "Where you and I differ is whether *spanking as a tool for training very young children to sit still in church* is a biblical, gracious use of spanking." I wasn't only referring to this particular situation.

 

I understood that you thought this particular situation may have been too much, and that you wouldn't do it in this way. But I actually have to disagree with the entire trend of physically punishing children to get them to sit still and quiet in church. I have friends who do this, who are good, god-seeking parents, but I just don't agree with that particular practice myself.

 

The only reason I am posting again, is because one of Colleen's original questions was, would this bother you, and why? Because truthfully, if the spanking had taken place because a child had bitten someone, or said something purposely mean to another person, or thrown a fit on the floor, etc., I wouldn't have had as much of a problem with it. (Though the spankings themselves sounded like they were harder than they should have been, and there should have been a good talk afterwards.)

 

But I think the thing that bothered me *most* was that this took place simply because parents wanted a child to sit still and silent during a church service.

 

Erica

[gandpsmommy]

and so I have to conclude that it is a recommended form of discipline. What I have noticed is that children are far more disrespectful of adults and others since the advent of more progressive parenting techniques. There are many Scriptures that recommend corporal punishment as a means to drive away foolishness/rebellion and to save the child in the end.

 

A few thoughts.

 

The practice of discipline and love is given in the Scripture, and all the "right or wrong" of discipline should begin with a correct exposition on what God's word says on the subject

 

We don't know how defiant/rebellious the 4 yo was to her father

 

I *think* the point of spanking is for a child not to repeat the behavior, so of course the process is unpleasant

 

If you take a belt and snap it lightly on your leg, it will make a LOT of noise, but not be injurious (I just tried this!)

 

Discipline should be redemptive, and not angry.

 

Some children are more foolish, defiant, and disobedient than others. Some require harsher discipline than others. If your children have been generally dutiful, you may not undersand what a parent of a strong willed, defiant child deals with.

 

Fathers are not to provoke their children by being unnecessarily harsh.

 

Spanking is not popular in today's culture, and is generally painted as evil and abusive. I remember a time when a bratty child, disrespectful child would be spanked right in the open, and everyone would cheer, "Well done!" Now Child Protective Services would be called.

 

No discipline seems pleasant at the time! Spanking is an unpleasant business. I would guess most children would cry out if they KNOW a spanking is coming.

 

If you have a problem with another church member, you need to immediately call your elder board and meet together with the person and the elders.

 

Rather than call the father a judgmental name in front if his child (abuser), you could have made the choice to find an elder or paster RIGHT THEN AND THERE. Do it now.

 

You'll feel much better when you get to the bottom of this whole thing. If this dad is an abuser, he needs accountability and action NOW. If your perception of the situation was in error, perhaps it can be cleared up and restoration can happen.

 

Just a few random thoughts.

 

I really don't want to hijack this thread. I started to respond last night, when I first read your response. But I stopped myself. I thought about this sad incident all night, however, and woke up with it still on my mind. So, I am going to attempt to very respectfully express a few thoughts which I offer in hope that it might be beneficial for someone reading the thread.

 

When I read your response last night, the first thing that came to my mind was the story in John 8, in which a woman caught in adultery was brought before Jesus. Clearly the punishment set forth in the Old Testament for adultery was death by stoning. Yet, Jesus did not condemn the woman to death. He invited the person there who had no sin to throw the first stone at the woman. And when no one could stay to throw the first stone, he told the woman that he did not condemn her either. He didn't ignore her sin, he told her to "Go now and leave your life of sin." But he showed her mercy and grace.

 

This is the example I want to hold in my heart when dealing with other people, especially with children. I agree that bad behavior cannot be ignored, but hitting children is certainly not the only (or most effective) method of dealing with undesirable behavior and attitudes. My dh and I have intentionally chosen not to hit (some people call it "spank") our children. Instead, we talk to them about what is appropriate and what is unacceptable. We give them guidance and instruction. Sometimes they choose not to heed our instruction and we must provide correction. And sometimes they choose not to heed our correction and we must impose consequences. But we have never, ever struck our children in any way. And yet, our children are not disrespectul or rude with adults. In fact, they often get compliments for their pleasant behavior and good manners.

 

The last thing I would like to add is that, even though I am not a proponent of spanking in any form, I would not consider this incident as described to be a "spanking". I think it crossed the line to abuse. It doesn't matter how hard he struck the child, or whether or not there were marks on her body afterwards, using an object to repeatedly strike a child is abuse.

 

I have witnessed different parents giving their young children a single swat on their bottoms or legs with an open hand on several occasions. And while it was not a discipline strategy I choose to use, I did not consider it abusive or think it warranted my intervention. The situation Colleen described, however, made me feel sick to my stomach, shaky, and very upset just reading it.

[gandpsmommy]

I don't see his point...and this is more red flags about this guy. Who does he think he is telling you where you may and may not sit to talk. You weren't bothering him except for the fact that you witnessed him spanking his child.

 

He really bugs me.

 

:iagree:

[Melinda in VT]

I don't agree with this part' date=' because all 5 of my children have learned to sit relatively still and quiet through an 1 1/2 hour long service by 18 months. Most of the other families in our church, who have been willing to give it a real try, have had the same experience with their children. It is a matter of training, and, yes, occasional spanking. It is really not that difficult to accomplish. My children enjoy being active participants in the service, and I am glad they are with us.[/quote']

 

But . . . isn't this like me saying that all of my kids (except the 2 yo) have read all the Harry Potter books by themselves in first grade, so that's an appropriate expectation to have for all kids?

[bkpan]

As one who has, long ago, put my own children through similar, I think I would have had to go in the bathroom and stage an intervention. I probably would have tried to get someone to go in with me.

 

It would not help though.The abuse will still go on at home. I don't think it can be stopped. That sounds so pessimistic, but I think it would take an act of God to make that father come to his senses. He really thinks God wants hiim to beat those children and he is so sure of his rightness and his righteousness that no amount of reasoning is going to reach him.

 

Colleen, I have to say your post just stirred up all sorts of pain for me. Pain for the child I was at the hands of someone who "disciplined" that way (until my mom and her lawyer rescued me), pain for the children of mine who lived through my years of being a follower of the proponents of that sort of childrearing.

 

I think I will go hand out hugs to my kids now. They'll think I've flipped my lid. Again!!!

 

I thought alot about this incident as well. I agree with so many other posters who admit that in their early parenting years they were "over-zealous" in their discipline methods. I feel that dh and I were as well. We too, have almost abandoned spanking as a disciplinary tool in our home. That said, the concern here is for a heart change in the father, not just to stop the spankings at church, if that can be accomplished, but to turn his heart toward his dc.

 

I believe that takes humility. Colleen, you have already shown your humility in trying to understand all perspectives here, despite your emotional rx at the little girl's suffering (can't say that I would have been so humble!). Hopefully, with prayer, someone can break through this man's defenses and help him to see the damage he is inflicting on his family. I haven't read every response, so forgive me if I missed it, but I haven't heard much said about the pastor's wife. Surely she must have some opinions on this. She was a witness, just as you were. I think that I would start with her. Perhaps another viewpoint would help the picture to become even clearer.

 

Maybe you could request a meeting with the pastor AND his wife, so that the two of you together could give your percpetions of what happened, and then seek his counsel on what to do next. Whatever that is, the end result (this man having a heart change), is the most important consideration.

 

My heart goes out to you, Colleen. This would feel like a "black cloud" over me as well. May the Holy Spirit guide your path now.

 

Kim

[Jugglin'5]

But . . . isn't this like me saying that all of my kids (except the 2 yo) have read all the Harry Potter books by themselves in first grade, so that's an appropriate expectation to have for all kids?

But . . . isn't this like me saying that all of my kids (except the 2 yo) have read all the Harry Potter books by themselves in first grade, so that's an appropriate expectation to have for all kids?

 

Which is why I said:

"Most of the other families in our church, who have been willing to give it a real try, have had the same experience with their children."

I guess this is why anecdotal evidence is never very convincing. The same parents that I hear at my church saying, "I learned in my elementary ed. classes that spanking children teaches them to solve their problems with violence and hit", are the ones with kids who are playground terrors, bullying and throwing dirt in other peoples' eyes. Meanwhile, those who spank have kids who respect other children's boundaries. I am sure, however, that other people have had the opposite experience. Anyway, I will drop out of this thread now. I told myself after the last "spanking" thread that this was not a good use of my time. I don't say that with any petulance or anger, just with the realization that these threads are not very edifying or productive.

[SnowWhite]

I truly am not trying to quibble here, but I feel I should clarify... The last sentence of my previous post wasn't clear. What I meant to say was, "Where you and I differ is whether *spanking as a tool for training very young children to sit still in church* is a biblical, gracious use of spanking." I wasn't only referring to this particular situation.

 

I understood that you thought this particular situation may have been too much, and that you wouldn't do it in this way. But I actually have to disagree with the entire trend of physically punishing children to get them to sit still and quiet in church. I have friends who do this, who are good, god-seeking parents, but I just don't agree with that particular practice myself.

 

The only reason I am posting again, is because one of Colleen's original questions was, would this bother you, and why? Because truthfully, if the spanking had taken place because a child had bitten someone, or said something purposely mean to another person, or thrown a fit on the floor, etc., I wouldn't have had as much of a problem with it. (Though the spankings themselves sounded like they were harder than they should have been, and there should have been a good talk afterwards.)

 

But I think the thing that bothered me *most* was that this took place simply because parents wanted a child to sit still and silent during a church service.

 

Erica

 

Agreeing here. I have a really tough time with this. Jugglin'5, it makes me really sad that you are spanking 18 month old children so they will sit still in a 1.5 hour long church service. (Please correct me if I misunderstood your post, that sounds like a fact to me).

 

My SIL has been coming to me for counsel about her future child-rearing as she has a 6 month infant. Her reaction to the discipline that goes on in the church nursery tells me most of the parents in my church have no grasp of appropriate child training. Her comment was that she felt like telling the woman who slapped her five year old around..."That must not be working, don't you think?" because he obviously was not responding to that method.

 

I wonder if parents of preschoolers who carry them out wailing realize how much that grieves many who are witness? How much it grieves the anointing of the Spirit on the service? How much more I receive from a service where a little child squirms and makes faces than one where I witness this kind of interruption!

 

(Lest I come across wrong, I have used spanking as a tool, however ITA that spanking as a way to make children sit still in church is usually inappropriate.)

 

ETA: I am not meaning to insinuate that Jugglin5 would slap her children around.

[WTMindy]

OK, I haven't read all the posts, but I will disagree (partially) with the majority of what people have said. I think you just described my brother-in-law. While, I believe he spanks a bit more than necessary, I would NEVER accuse him of child abuse. He is a loving father who takes very seriously to train his children according to the word of God! His children adore him even thought they have an extremely healthy fear of him. He uses a piece of rubber tube because it gives a very good sting. (We have never used one of these, although we did spank our kids quite a bit when they were younger).

 

If you said those words in front of his child, I think you should apologize for that. Personally, I don't think you should have challenged him in front of his kid. Even if he is totally off base, it should have been done in a more private way. It sounds like you had a more emotional response rather than a thought through desire to help the man.

 

I know I will probably get flamed for this post, but the situation that you described may or may not be abuse. Some people interpret spanking as a light swat on the bottom and some people want it to be a pain that deters a repeat of the behavior. My bil expected his kids (when they were litte)to sit still in church and would take them out and spank them if they did not. His kids (now 6,9, and 11) are delightful, happy, wonderful, well behaved, emotionally stable and secure children. I would put us also in the category of people who required our children to sit still and obey or they would get a spanking, but we probably weren't quite as strict as my bil. I certainly hope that anyone who saw us take our kids out to give them a spank would not accuse us of abuse. We did inflict pain on our kids when we spanked them, but I don't think that is the same as abuse.

 

I don't honestly know if he is abusing his kids or not, so you may have been in the right to say something to him. However, I am trying to show you what it might look like on the other side. I don't know the right or wrong thing, honestly to do, and I'm sorry that you are in the middle of all this. I am praying for you that God would give you wisdom to do the right thing (whatever that may be) and that God would soften that man's heart it that is what is needed!

[Parrothead]

I wouldn't apologize to him. He is the one who insisted on making his family business public by doing it where it could be seen or overheard.

 

I agree with the posters that said the pastor needs to know. Possibly the pastor can counsel this man on what "Spare the rod, spoil the child" really means. Then there is the aspect of visitors being turned off by hearing/seeing this type of behavior at church.

 

If nothing else this man may learn to take his children home before "disciplining" them.

 

P.S. If I thought a parent was being abusive to his/her children I wouldn't let my children visit their house.

[Moxie]

OK, I haven't read all the posts, but I will disagree (partially) with the majority of what people have said. I think you just described my brother-in-law. While, I believe he spanks a bit more than necessary, I would NEVER accuse him of child abuse. He is a loving father who takes very seriously to train his children according to the word of God! His children adore him even thought they have an extremely healthy fear of him. He uses a piece of rubber tube because it gives a very good sting. (We have never used one of these, although we did spank our kids quite a bit when they were younger).

 

If you said those words in front of his child, I think you should apologize for that. Personally, I don't think you should have challenged him in front of his kid. Even if he is totally off base, it should have been done in a more private way. It sounds like you had a more emotional response rather than a thought through desire to help the man.

 

I know I will probably get flamed for this post, but the situation that you described may or may not be abuse. Some people interpret spanking as a light swat on the bottom and some people want it to be a pain that deters a repeat of the behavior. My bil expected his kids (when they were litte)to sit still in church and would take them out and spank them if they did not. His kids (now 6,9, and 11) are delightful, happy, wonderful, well behaved, emotionally stable and secure children. I would put us also in the category of people who required our children to sit still and obey or they would get a spanking, but we probably weren't quite as strict as my bil. I certainly hope that anyone who saw us take our kids out to give them a spank would not accuse us of abuse. We did inflict pain on our kids when we spanked them, but I don't think that is the same as abuse.

 

I don't honestly know if he is abusing his kids or not, so you may have been in the right to say something to him. However, I am trying to show you what it might look like on the other side. I don't know the right or wrong thing, honestly to do, and I'm sorry that you are in the middle of all this. I am praying for you that God would give you wisdom to do the right thing (whatever that may be) and that God would soften that man's heart it that is what is needed!

 

This might be a flame, I don't know. Do you really think Jesus is in heaven thinking "That one isn't sitting still during My worship. Get out the rubber tube"??? Is it always abuse to spank a child for not sitting still? No, but IMO it is always poor parenting.

[WTMindy]

This might be a flame, I don't know. Do you really think Jesus is in heaven thinking "That one isn't sitting still during My worship. Get out the rubber tube"??? Is it always abuse to spank a child for not sitting still? No, but IMO it is always poor parenting.

 

No that isn't a flame. I'm OK if people disagree with me. Honestly, you could very well be right. We have trained our kids to the best our ability with the tools we believe that God gave us (not a rubber tube, by the way :001_smile:) I almost never participate in spanking threads because it is such a devisive issue and I know that my opinion will probably never change anyone's mind, but I just wanted Colleen to know that there are loving, kind, dedicated, Godly parents who do discipline this strictly and I don't consider this on par with child abuse. I want to make sure that I state that this man could very well be abusive (he sounds a bit authoritarian) but I wouldn't say that just based on the fact that he spanks his kids for not sitting still in church.

[WagsWife]

No that isn't a flame. I'm OK if people disagree with me. Honestly, you could very well be right. We have trained our kids to the best our ability with the tools we believe that God gave us (not a rubber tube, by the way :001_smile:) I almost never participate in spanking threads because it is such a devisive issue and I know that my opinion will probably never change anyone's mind, but I just wanted Colleen to know that there are loving, kind, dedicated, Godly parents who do discipline this strictly and I don't consider this on par with child abuse. I want to make sure that I state that this man could very well be abusive (he sounds a bit authoritarian) but I wouldn't say that just based on the fact that he spanks his kids for not sitting still in church.

 

:iagree: You said it way better than I did!